Leaky Gut, Histamine, and Your Nervous System: The Hidden Connection Making You Sick

I've been on a massive deep dive. I told Laura before we started recording today that I have gotten my PhD lately in histamine and mast cells and the brain and gut connection and nervous system now and how it's all connected. And I've been texting her, as I always do, with all of my questions and theories and findings every day. Every day. Lots of text, multiple times a day. We may have a memoir book one day. Memoir of text between Natalie and Laura.

People would read it.

They would probably read it, but there's a lot to unpack there. And I thought we got to do this live because I have a lot of questions, a lot of questions about gut, about the connection between that and our brain. Why there's all of a sudden all of these issues, it seems like, with various things that I still believe stem from the gut and then what we can actually even do about it. And, you know, Laura, you're my go to expert here. You're my gut genie here. But in my readings, I picked up a lot of people's books. I was like, you know what, Let me just hear what other gut people have to say. And I got more confused than ever. So I thought, okay, let me have you on. You know, just to give you an example of a confusion. You know, we're told for your gut, it's fermented foods. Good. Well, if you're having a problem with histamine, fermented foods aren't good. So there's just a lot there. So I just have a lot of questions. And then also my big thing that I'm going to get into today is if nervous system and brain and gut are so intertwined, which I believe they are, when we hyper focus on fixing things, it makes our nervous system even worse. Right?

Yeah. You cracked me up last night. You gave me like, I don't know, a seven minute ramble. And at the end of it, you said, and I'm so frustrated, I can't control this. And it's like. And that's the key thing right there. Yes, yes, girl, enough control.

So today on this conversation, I got a lot of questions. And we're just going to kind of rapid fire out the questions. And based on what you answer, I may go a little bit deeper. But I want to start with when we hear that the gut is our second brain. What does that actually mean?

Okay, so the second brain, we know that your brain has lots of neurons, right? So there's another place in your body called the enteric nervous system, which is inside of Your gut. And it has over 100 million neurons, lots of neurons, like the brain, actually more than the spinal cord, believe it or not. And it operates on its own independently, but in constant communication with the central nervous system. So this enteric nervous system does some important things for you. It controls digestion. It sends those signals about gut status to the brain. So what's, you know, this constant communication between gut and brain, and it's responsible for, you know, what people know is the gut feeling. Right. So when you get an emotional. I mean. I mean, how many times, Natalie, have you been in a stressful situation and you just felt like you had to go run and have diarrhea, or you're about to go out on stage to speak in front of thousands of people, and you're like, I need to clear my bowels right now. Right. So that's that gut feeling thing that happens. It's like an emotional response and then disregulation of this second brain, enteric nervous system. It creates mood problems, digestive problems, systemic inflammation. And I'll also say with the enteric nervous system, so many people here listening right now suffer from chronic constipation, meaning they don't poop. You know, every single. Here we go. We're like five minutes out of the gate and we're talking about poop. But they don't poop every day, or they poop just a little bit every day. That's constipation. That enteric nervous system is dysregulated, and the nerves aren't firing regularly to get the body to eliminate the stool. And so fixing that enteric nervous system is critical in getting people even to resolve constipation.

So this gets confusing, and I know we're going to go deeper into this, but is it. It's like the chicken or the egg question. Is it fixing the nervous system and the brain first and then the gut fixes, or is it fixing the gut first and then that calms your brain and nervous system?

I think it's happening all together.

Okay, that's not the answer I wanted, but explain that.

Right, Right. So I think it would be good to talk about the HPA axis here. So the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, the HPA axis, regulates stress and cortisol production. And so we know that cortisol is not good for us. Right. I mean, a little bit is good if you need to quickly make decisions and run really fast away from a dangerous situation or something. You want that cortisol pumping, but you don't want that cortisol pumping when you're sitting, eating lunch, scrolling through the news, getting stressed out. Right. So. So chronic stress overstimulates the HPA axis and that leads to all this inflammation and gut lining damage because it's directly connected. And that HPA dysfunction will weaken digestion. It'll lower your stomach acid. So when the food comes into your stomach, you can't even extract the nutrients to be able to make the brain neur neurotransmitters to make the hormones to repair tissues in the body. And it's going to impair that nutrient absorption. So stress disrupts the microbiome and the microbiome will favor pathogenic over beneficial bacteria when stress disrupts. And so regulating that stress and stabilizing both brain and gut health is mission critical. But know that it's a two way constant streak and that's why you can't say what came first, the chicken or the egg, because it's in constant communication. I'll share a study with you. So I don't know exactly how scientists did this, but they actually studied the brain of someone having a stroke, an acute stroke, and they were simultaneously measuring what happens in the gut. And it was instant. When somebody was having a stroke in the brain, the gut bacteria instantly shifted. So it is a instantaneous connection and they're both constantly communicating with each other. Wow.

Okay, so this is good news. And it's also more stressful news because for people that run higher stress high, that's me. We think let's fix that. Like it's just what's the fix? What's the fix? And the fix can make it more stressful or we think the stress the fix is makes it more stressful. So like for example, trying to say, oh well, I must eat all these things to fix gut or I must do all these things to de stress. Can those things in itself can make people more stressed?

Yeah, they can. I mean you can totally be hyper fixated. I mean, are you talking about, I want clarity on the, on the question here. Are you talking about just the overload of trying to do everything perfectly and not seeming to be able to do any of it?

Yeah, I think that's a good place to start. So, okay, so what I'll hear. And I'm not just not talking about just me, I'm just talking about people in general. So I'll hear from women a lot. It just feels like there's so much to do that's making me more stressed. So they think I've Gotta meditate now. I've gotta go breath work. I've gotta eat fermented foods. I've got. It's just that very.

The list. The doing this is so stressful. And a concept that I was actually talking about earlier today before we jumped onto this recording together is perfectionism. So perfectionism isn't possible. And people who follow you are probably perfectionists. People who follow me are perfectionists. Like attracts like. And we like to do things right and we like to get it right and we like to do it well. And trying to do every little piece perfect actually creates massive sabotage because once we fail at one of the pieces, we kind of throw up our hands and go, well, if I can't do it perfect, I may as well not do it at all. Where in actuality, if you did 60 to 70% of the things well, you would heal. You don't have to do a hundred percent of it. So that is my invitation to the audience right now is you don't have to do everything perfect. And there's a. There's a lot. You don't have to do every single thing at once. There's so many funny people on Instagram right now poking fun at natural medicine, integrative medicine, functional medicine, like, making fun of how the day plays out and all the things you do. And I mean, we know that you have it stack and you do all kinds of healthy things all at once. Right? You get in your. Your vibration chair with your hydrogen and your red light and you like, do all the things at once. That's amazing. But it's also not stressing you out because you're doing just doing three things at once. It's like you're not trying to do them all separately. So find a way that you can support yourself without overwhelming yourself. And I know it's hard because. Which one should I do? Yeah, right. The one you should do. What is the thing you should do to heal your body? The one you should do is the one you can do that makes sense for you and isn't hard. Because as soon as it becomes hard, it becomes stress provoking. It puts you out of that parasympathetic healing state.

You.

It puts you into sympathetic overdrive. It floods cortisol into the system. And now you are being counterproductive.

Yeah, intuitively. Like, for example, I'll. I'll say with me, and if those of you that heard my last episode, I was about to start a steroid to stop these hives, I feel that prednisone way made my Stuff worse because it does exactly what you said. It makes it hyper floods your body with cortisol. So that's the last thing I needed. So it's like. So I think like that's a good message just in general, especially for those of you listening, that it's like, what are all the things I need to take or what are all the things I need to do? We have to almost check in and go, what do I was my body actually really need right now? And if like, you know, intuitively it needs a calm or it needs this, you have to listen to that versus just piling something else in.

Yeah. And I mean from a personal space, you know, super busy life, high stress life, lots going on. And sometimes, Natalie, I just stopped everything. No supplements today, no biohacks today. I just need to be calm in my body and do nothing. And sometimes that's the most therapeutic thing that makes sense.

Okay, let's. Because this is a whole bigger conversation, the gut and brain thing. But I wanted to at least get that out, that your, your answer though is really that they're not separate, they really work together. They are very intertwined, they're very connected.

The brain and the gut are simultaneously connected with within a millisecond.

And you can't just fix one. You have to pay attention to both.

You have to pay attention to both.

Okay, what is, when people say leaky gut, what is it? And why do many Western medicine, many like basically say it's not a thing? And then the people that say that it is a thing, it's a really big thing. So what is it and why the controversy around it?

Well, I think the days of Western medicine saying it's not a thing are actually over. And I don't think we can say that anymore. And actually I know this because every medical conference that I attended over the last 10 years in the western space, because that's where I worked in for a couple decades, every single conference, whether it was a dermatology conference, a cardiology conference, an endocrinology conference, there was always a discussion about the gut microbiome and how it impacts that system in the body. So it is widely known what I think is misunderstood in Western medicine is what to actually do about it. So they acknowledge it's there, but now how do you fix it? So your question is, what's leaky gut? So leaky gut is intestinal permeability. So this happens when the barrier between the gut and the bloodstream widens. So there's something called tight junctions. So think about Nice and tight, woven junctions. And when it gets leaky, those junctions open and we end up with a wider space. The space becomes loose. That allows toxins, undigested food particles, microbes to pass from the closed digestive system through the bloodstream. Much easier. And what happens is systemic inflammation. So this inflammation all over the body, this sets you up for autoimmunity. Food sensitivities, chronic health conditions. Triggers to leaky gut include some of the things that we eat every day, like gluten, like sugar, like preservatives, and then what we're exposed to in the food, infection. So if we're exposed to bacteria, parasites, fungus from what we're eating or drinking, then that's going to trigger leaky gut, Chronic stress. I mean, this is one of the big things we're talking about, like even acute stress, I mean, it doesn't even have to be chronic. Your gut microbiome can go through a complete shift within minutes to hours. If you are flooded with a stressful event, your gut will react. So I can tell you, if I did a gut test on you on a calm day when everything's good, and then I get a gut test on you the next time you poop after you had a near death experience, your gut's going to look different. Yes, your gut's gonna look completely different. So leaky gut is, you know, at the crux, at the reason why people have irritable bowel syndrome, anxiety, chronic fatigue, achy joints, arthritis, brain fog. So underneath all of those symptoms, all those conditions that we have, leaky gut is a root cause in that. And so what we have to do is reduce the triggers and rebuild the gut lining. And I can't say this loud enough, Natalie. So many people think, well, I don't have leaky gut because I don't have diarrhea or I don't have abdominal pain or.

That's what I used to think. I used to think that.

Yeah, digestive symptoms. Right. The word leaky gut is kind of poorly named because it makes us think something's happening, got related. But your symptom for leaky gut might be fatigue, it might be 2 o' clock midday crashes, it might be brain fog, it might be anxiety, it might be migraine headaches, it might be joint pain, it might be kind of a rapid aging of skin, it might be hair loss. All of those things could be leaky gut. Yeah.

I had a disbelief three years ago that when you the word leaky gut meant you, it was because you weren't eating healthy, that you, your stomach was always hurting, and I, I, I remember refusing to test for it. I'm like, well, I don't, I don't have that. And I'll tell you, I definitely have dealt with leaky gut, like, for years. And it's, I believe it's the root of my celiac years ago, too. So I think a lot of autoimmune stems from this. Can you fix leak. Like, can people just fix leaky gut with probiotics or fermented food? Like, I'm, I know the answer, but I'm asking you, right?

So, but it's basically you're asking me, can we fix it with diet, right, or kombucha?

Can we drink enough kombucha?

So, no, kombucha is not sufficient to heal your leaky gut. So there's so much to it. Remember, I mentioned that there are factors contributing to the leaky gut, like pathogens, for example. So we must go on a pathogen clearing quest, which we've done with you. Like, we gotta move the bad bacteria out. We need to move the parasites out. We need to move the fungus out, we need to move the overgrowth bacteria out. And that you cannot eat your way out of that. And in terms of eating, you know, a lot of people think, well, I eat healthy, I should be able to fix my gut, right? Well, in Paula, truth, some healthy foods actually worsen your symptoms if the gut is inflamed or if you're histamine sensitive, which you've been going through. So some things you just have to avoid. Now, functional protocols may include antimicrobial herbs and may include probiotics. You might need peptides. We've been exploring peptides with you right now. You might need enzymes. We will know that when we do a gut microbiome test. We must address environmental toxins. If toxins are constantly coming in, we'll just pick on glyphosate for a second. So glyphosate, this herbicide that's so widely used in farming and now is even penetrating organic produce, because it's just everywhere. It's pervasive. Organic farmers, even though they're not directly spraying their crops of glyphosate, cannot avoid it because it's in the air, it's in the water, it's in the crop next door to them from the, with the conventional farmer who's using the glyphosate. That particular herbicide actually destroys good bacteria. There is a process that occurs when your bacteria is exposed to glyphosate. It's called the shikama pathway is destroyed in bacteria. And when those bacteria are destroyed, now you can't digest food. Now you can't extract the nutrients. Now your gut can't communicate with your brain. Well, now your gut can't communicate with your mitochondria. Now you're set up for chronic health conditions. Glyphosate is devastating. It's one of the things that we test for our purpose. Yeah.

So, you know, this is infuriating because I picked up so many books this week. I was like, I'm gonna learn. I just want to, like, absorb everything. And I can't tell you every single book I picked up about gut health. Every single one jumped right into adding fermented foods, adding foods that like, would destroy me right now. So why is that this, like, first thing that everyone seems to talk about, like, oh, you're just, you need to add more kimchi. You need to add more these things that will destroy somebody that has severe leaky gut and already has intolerances.

So in our programs, we actually don't even talk about fermented foods and bone broth and all these things.

Yeah, bone broth was one of them, by the way. That is.

Yeah, right. They're histamine rich. And for most people, this is going to cause more issue if you can't clear histamine. And because there's no really great way to know other than trial and error, we just avoid these foods. In our beginning journey of gut healing, we want to strengthen your system before we bring this in. So for people who can't clear histamine, these types of foods, fermented foods, bone broth, they overwhelm someone with a DAO deficiency or mast cell activation, and then the damaged gut lining cannot process histamine. And that will lead to a flare up. So you're actually eating a healthy, nutritious food that's actually creating a flare. Flare and a worsening of symptoms. So oftentimes people need low histamine protocols before the kind of broader gut healing protocols can come in. You know, I always say the old school 5R protocols, you know, the gut microbiome was, and I use air quotes, was discovered in the early 2000s. It's only been 20 some years since we've really understood anything about the gut microbiome. And in the early stages, it was eat fermented foods, drink brown broth, do, do the 5R restoring protocol, and people just feel lousy, they feel terrible on it. So I'm always saying to people, do A modern approach, protocol with somebody who really understands. And that's what we've taken so many of the women in your community through, is a modern protocol that actually doesn't start with fermented foods or probiotics. I don't even bring a probiotic in until months after we start the healing process.

This is so important and such a light bulb for me because I think we've gone way too far the other way with people. Even if you literally, like, let's say you have a physical stomach feeling like you. You feel sick, you. Your stomach is not so. So many people say, and I did too, drink bone broth, add these things. So if you've been doing that, like, you're adding bone broth and ferments and the probiotics, and you're feeling worse, this is something to really pay attention to. So you always taught me, Laura, you always taught me to kind of like, oh, and I know this is getting too far ahead, and I don't want to go down a whole rabbit hole here, but you have a very specific sequence that you teach about getting your body ready and then gently clearing and then rebuilding. And I think there's a. That just jump right into the rebuild without. With, like, they skip that part. Like, they just want to jump into

this whole rebuild or they jump into killing. The biggest mistake is people jump into actually killing the bacteria, parasites, and fungus without prepping the body first.

Right.

And then rebuilding with fermented foods and bone broth. That can be really irritating for a lot of people. So we need to start with reducing triggers before introducing those types of healing.

Okay, that's, to me, is a huge light bulb thing. If we do jump into killing first, like, like, people are like, I'm going to do this random parasite cleanse I found, or I'm going to do this. Because there's a lot of people that talk online about, oh, you don't need to do all this whole open drainage pathways. You can just go in and kill. I think I sent you one on. I think I sent you one on Instagram to check out later. DMs, like, yeah, this, they say that. So can you speak into that for a minute?

Like, the biggest mistake you can ever do. So if you go on a killing spree, like, there's so many people there on social media selling, like, take my parasite cleanse. You should do this, you know, or, you know, let's go kill Candida. If you don't prep your body to be able to deal with the die off of those Microbes, you are going to make yourself so sick. It's called a Herxheimer reaction. I know because in the early stages of my functional medicine career, I caused Herxheimer reactions in people because I didn't know what I didn't know. Now I know. You don't do that. You don't start killing before you support a passageway for these dead microbes to get out and for all the chemicals they release when they die. That's the big issue. The chemicals that are released when these microbes die make you feel like you're coming down with the flu. So body aches, nausea, pain, headaches, extreme fatigue, everything aches. The hair on your head aches. Everything feels lousy. It is like a flu like syndrome. And people will say, I'm never taking that herbal supplement again. That made me feel worse than I've ever felt in my life. Well, thankfully, that doesn't happen in my community because we do prep work to get people ready to actually go on a killing spree for microbes. We would never start with an antimicrobial, ever. And I don't care who you are, you can come to me and say, oh, I've got a stomach of steel. I've done everything. I've done 10 protocols, great start here. Then we'll layer in the antimicrobials. We just. And so now what? We see the worst, we see when people start killing off these microbes. Your energy might go down a little bit, might dip for a day or two while your body's adjusting to it, but it's no big deal, right? They're not sick in bed.

Hey there. If you're finding value in this episode of Midlife Conversations, I would really appreciate it if you would hit that, like, button and subscribe. And when that little bell pops up, you want to hit that. That way you are notified of all new episodes so you don't miss a beat. You subscribing and liking helps others find this content. And this allows me to keep growing, keep getting amazing new guests for you and to keep sharing. You know, I have this. This theory here where someone that maybe is saying that, like, you don't have to open up drainage pathways, whatever. They might be so advanced in their own health right now, like, maybe their gut is on point. So for them, they don't have leaky gut, everything's working fine. They're living in a way that their body is constantly opening up those drainage pathways. So for them, that might be true, but for most people, that is not the case. So, yeah, you have to check out your DMs later. Laura, I sent you one on that.

Okay, well, plus, plus, the open protocol is where people feel their best. They always say, can I go back to that? I felt so good. I was sleeping good, my energy was good. My husband said that my skin looked clear. My. My hairstylist said, because things just start moving through you better, is that you're absorbing nutrients better. You start gently and respectfully letting go of toxins that make you feel lousy. So people feel. Feel their best in that first month. This is the secret to our success, Natalie. Don't tell anybody, but you got to make people feel better and believe that they can heal. Before you start going and killing things, you have to show them that it's possible to feel good.

For sure. For sure. And that makes sense. That's what you do. Teach. Okay, I want to. I know I'm going a little backwards in the conversation for a second, but there's something I forgot to ask you. We're talking a lot about stress and nervous system and how that affects our gut. How if you are somebody that is, you feel that stress coming over you, like, that's just. That's your life. Like you're you. You. If you're listening and you're that person, you know, like you feel like you might be in Zen, and then all of a sudden you're like, wait, now my heart's racing. This is the phone, the email, the kids, that, whatever. Like you're that person. And we know how much this affects our gut. Can you give us a couple little tips there that are not go do breath work and meditate because they don't want to hear that.

That. Well, first I want to talk about what happens when you are stressed and the nervous system affects your gut. So when you're stressed like that, it's going to suppress digestive enzymes and stomach acid. That's going to impair your digestion. So that's thing number one. So you're going to feel loud, it's going to sit in there and ferment and cause bloating and gases, and you're going to feel lousy after you eat. And then it alters the balance of the gut microbes and it increases inflammation. So now down the road, you might have achy joints, you might have headaches, you might have just feeling lousy all over. So again, that stress activates the sympathetic nervous system. So, I mean, I am not a meditator. That is not my thing. So it needs to be individualized to you and what you will do. So for some people, it's just going out and sitting in the sun. You've even said to me that I'm stressed, I'm flipped out, I'm anxious, I'm now sitting in the sun and I've calmed down. So it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be meditation. If that's not for you, for some people, it's grab your favorite novel, grab a book book, get absorbed in it and start reading. Do something to distract yourself and bring that stress level down. Put on your favorite music, have a little dance party at home with your family. Like, okay, look, mama needs to de stress. Let's put on some music and dance. You cannot simultaneously be joyful and stressed out at the same time. Go help somebody else. So if you are in it thick and you feel lousy and you're anxious and everything's bad, go donate your time at a soup kitchen. Go do something for someone to get you out of your own headspace because you will feel so much better when you're giving. Go. You're giving of yourself. Go to church, call a friend, have somebody to vent with. But you don't have to meditate. I am not a meditator. But you have to do something to take you out of the stress cycle, whatever that is for you. For some people, they go out for a run, right? Like that's their thing. If they don't do that, they feel stressed. For some people, it's go in the kitchen and stress bake and go bring brownies to all your friends.

Maybe that's the thing that I'm hearing from you. It's a distraction. So this. So meditation is a distraction from life because you're basically shutting down your brain. But for some people that are highly stressed, that makes it worse when they're in this high state to try.

Meditation stresses me out because I'm freaked out that I'm not doing it right. Remember that perfection is a possible thing. Like, that's the worst thing for me because then I'm like in it thinking, I'm not doing this right. My brain won't calm down. This is not working. I can't. I can't stop thinking about this. It's not going to work. I need to go do something else to distract myself.

So if I'm hearing correctly, it's. It's about distraction. It's about getting yourself out of the thing that you're focused on that's raising your heart rate and making you feel that way. And where can you get grounded? Again, you mentioned the sun. And I think, you know, if you look at pets like dogs do, that dogs will go and lay in the sun. And I believe that they're doing that intuitively to calm themselves, to heal themselves, all of that. Can you talk a little bit about just anything that you know about sun and microbiome? Is it truly the sun or is it circadian rhythm or what is that?

Well, it's. So it's connected, right? So sunlight regulates circadian rhythm, and that actually governs your gut motility and hormone release. Circadian rhythm is critical. It's why people who do like night shift, working graveyard shifts, it's very difficult to get them healed because they're out of rhythm with normal hormone release and gut motility. So further, you know that UV exposure, getting in the sun, that creates vitamin D. Vitamin D synthesis occurs on the skin, and that is critical for gut lining integrity and immune function. So there's another reason to get out in the sun. And then natural light actually helps produce serotonin, and that is connecting back to the brain gut connection and gut brain health because serotonin is also produced in the gut. And so natural light helps that and it's very calming and soothing to us. And that outdoor exposure will boost the microbiome diversity. So, you know, get out in nature, get exposed to other. If you're out in the sun, you're out in nature, right? I mean, even if you're a city, like, go touch a tree, go hug a tree, go put your feet in the grass at the park, whatever it is, have a nice little patio garden, you know, in, in, in containers, whatever it is, to get nature around you that's also supportive. And then lack of sunlight, we just know it disrupts the gut brain signaling and mood stability. So it is absolutely critical. I do believe Flops is right. Flops gets. Dog gets out there in the sun. You know, my cats, they seek the sunny spots in the house, right? They want to be right there in the. Where the sun is shining and get as much of it as they can. They know.

Yeah, I think we've tried too many times to. I'm included in this. I'm blaming myself too, in trying to biohack our away. Away from. But it's the nature. It's specifically being in nature that's healing. It's not just sitting in front of a red light. Like, I love my red light, but it's. We still need to be outside too.

We need all spectrums of the sun, not just the red spectrum. And we need grounding. Right. We need to go outside, get connection with the earth, go barefoot. If you don't want to walk around barefoot, throw a towel down on the grass and sit your body on it. Now you're grounding and you're sitting on a towel or a blanket, you're still grounding. It's the thing that prevents grounding is the rubber soles on our shoes. So that you're not grounding when you're walking outside on rubber soles. But you could sit on the earth on a blanket that would be grounding.

Oh, good to know. I would imagine cement too. If you're on cement too, that's probably still ground.

Get on the dirt.

Yeah, I feel like my floors are all wood. So I, I justify that in my house. Maybe I'm grounding, I don't know.

Yes, once alive.

Well, no, I figure they it, but it is poor. So it goes through to the ground is what I, how I in my head think of it. Okay, so let's talk about the gut and Alzheimer's degenerative disease connection, because I think there, if I'm understanding correctly, there's a big link with that as well. So if we don't address this, we're going to create other issues.

Totally. And that this is where I say Western medicine can't ignore the gut microbiome anymore, because there's a lot of research right now going on around gut health and Alzheimer's and degenerative brain diseases, dementia. So leaky gut, we know, contributes to systemic inflammation. Right, we talked about that. And the blood brain barrier breakdown. Right. So we know that it's going to break it down when you have that leaky gut. And then pathogens and toxins can actually enter circulation through the leaky gut, where we talked about the tight junctions getting wider and then that can cross the blood brain barrier, reach the brain and trigger neurodegeneration. So we know there's a direct connection. We know that the microbiome affects brain detoxification, oxification pathways and neurotransmitter production as well. A lot of neurotransmitters are actually made in the gut and then shuttled to the brain. So we know studies are linking gut inflammation to memory loss and cognitive decline. And, and we're seeing it earlier and earlier. Right. Like people in their 40s, people in their 30s. It's wild. So we know that early gut repair could be a really critical prevention step. And if you talk to any integrative doctor, natural doctor, who specializes in dementia and Alzheimer's, gut healing is a number one priority in their protocol.

Wow. And if it's not, I feel like that's we're missing with the wrong doctor. They need to be paying attention to that.

Yes.

Estrogen dominance, that's a big conversation in midlife, a big one in perimenopause and menopause. Even post menopause, you can still actually be estrogen dominance. How does that tie into the gut?

Yeah, and actually we saw this on the very first gut test we ever did on you. You had like, huge problem there. And we could predict from your gut test that you probably had estrogen dominance, and indeed you did. So there's an enzyme that's made by bacteria in the gut called beta glucuronidase. What happens with that enzyme? Well, let me back it up a little bit. So when your body utilizes estrogen and is done with it, it sends it to the liver, the liver packages it up and sends it through to the intestines and through the bowels, where you're supposed to poop it out. So think about the liver packaging your estrogen in a nice neat package ready for Amazon delivery. Right? It's in a box, sealed up, ready to be delivered out the bowels and flushed down the toilet. What the beta glucuronidase enzyme does is when the enzyme package hits your bowels, it opens the package, pulls the tape off, opens the Amazon box and allows the estrogen to recirculate back into the body. And so that is what happens with estrogen dominance. Now, not only that, that same enzyme will recirculate fat soluble toxins in the body as well. So your liver is packaging lots of stuff up to send it away for delivery out to the toilet. And so it will recirculate not only estrogen, but toxins as well. But we saw that on your first gut test. We've done so many gut tests. I believe it was your first one. But your latest gut test, your beta glucuronidase was perfect.

That's good to know. So, and just so you all know, if you are menopause, perimenopause, post menopause even, and you're like, why am I still estrogen? How can I be estrogen dominant? My estrogen is low. All right? I feel signs of, of low estrogen. Laura, you explained to me, just because you have estradiol in your blood doesn't mean it's actually functioning, working, helping you, supporting you. It could be the recirculating kind.

It can be. And you know, as our dear friend Anna Kabeca always says, it takes more than hormones to fix hormones. What she's referring to in that is gut health. Right. There's a lot of aspects to this, but repairing gut health is going to help you balance hormones as well. Really mission critical. But yes.

So I didn't really understand why all of a sudden I'm having this issue with histamine and mast cell. And, and now I have basically a PhD in those topics. I've learned so much and, and I feel as I'm hopefully starting. Oh, I'm actually, I'm going to declare I'm getting to the other side of it because I'm not going to stay in this.

Okay.

But what it's opened up for me is how many people actually do have, even if it's a low grade, for years, histamine issue, like, so they, it might not be full blown hives the way that I was getting, but it seems to be becoming a histamine and mast cell activation. So I know that's not your main expertise, but you, you do see this. Gut health, it's important. Yeah, let's talk about it.

It's important we talk about it and I think we should have a bit of a robust discussion about it, actually. So. So first of, like, I think there's a lot of confusion about what is histamine. So histamine is a signal. It's telling other parts of your body what to do. So imagine your body has chemical messengers, help different parts communicate. Like if your body was sending a text message between cells, histamine is one of those messengers. So it's a natural chemical made by your body and it comes from amino acids. So the amino acid is histidine. Histidine is in many foods. And when we eat foods, we extract the histidine and then histamine is made from it. So let's talk about what histamine does because I think that's really important. So histamine has four really important jobs. So number one, and histamine is good. So let's first start by saying histamine is good. We need histamine.

As Brooke says, it's not histamine, it's histinize hista.

Nice. Good for our immune system. It tells the body, yo, come over here. There's something wrong. You inhaled pollen or you got exposed to an infection, Right? Something's going on. Because we think about histamine with allergies, right? So you inhaled pollen, so you get inflammation as a Result. And because your body is trying to deal with the invader, it can cause some irritating symptoms like swelling or redness or runny nose or itching or whatever. But it's actually doing a good thing for you. The second job is stomach happening in the stomach. So histamine tells your stomach to make stomach acid to help you digest food. That's really important. We need to extract the nutrients from the food. The fourth thing it does has to do with your brain. We've been talking a lot about brain today, but histamine helps your brain stay alert and awake. So think of it acting like a little mild stimulant. We don't want to be crashing and falling asleep. We want a little bit of histamine. And then the fourth thing it does has to do with your nervous system and your gut. So it affects how fast things will move through your digestive tract and how your gut and brain communicate. We've talked a lot about gut brain communication today. So histamine is important for that communication process. So histamine, when it gets overdriven, it kicks in to handle emergencies like allergies and infections, and then it can go haywire and cause more harm than help, which is what you've been experiencing. But it is important. In small doses, it's helpful, and in big doses, it just creates all kinds of sensitivity. So we could talk. I think it would be important to talk about the types of responses that people have because there's like this allergic response, there's a histamine response, and then there's kind of the MAST cell response.

Yeah.

So I think it would be important to unpack that. Yes. Yeah. No.

And explain the difference a little bit.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So first off, you know, we know about histamine allergies. It means it's a true allergy your audience may have heard of. People say it's an ige mediated. It's. That's an immunoglobulin. So the classic immune overreaction is like peanuts. Like, like your daughter had allergies to peanuts or somebody has allergy to shellfish. That's an immediate histamine response that involves those IgE antibodies. And here's what sets it apart from other histamine responses. It's sudden, it's severe, it can be life threatening anaphylaxis. This is why people carry an EpiPen. Right. Okay. So that's that type of histamine response. The second type of histamine response is histamine intolerance. So I think this is what most people are experiencing. That means too much histamine, not enough cleanup. So we'll talk about what cleanup is. So it's not an allergy at all. That's what I want everybody to hear. It's a processing problem. And this is what you've been realizing. So your body naturally produces histamine and it needs to break it down efficiently using enzymes. Dao, diamine oxidase. This, you're taking diamine oxidase right now. So a histamine intolerance. It means that you're not making enough enzyme like DAO to come and clean it up and get rid of it. And if those enzymes are low and not working right due to a lot of things. For if you have gut damage, if you have a genetic propensity for it, if you have over the top inflammation, histamine will build up in your system. And then when you cross that kind of threshold and you can't clear it, it usually happens about 30 minutes to after eating, which you've been.

Exactly, what's going on with me?

Yes, yes, about 30 minutes after eating. So what do you get? Hives, flushing, rapid heartbeat, anxiety, headaches, nasal congestion. Some people even get diarrhea, bloating. So that's histamine intolerance. And then let's talk about mast cell activation syndrome. MCAS is what people call it. So think of this completely differently. This is literally, this is a broken system. So the fire alarm is broken. So MCAS is a deeper, more complex issue. It's not about external triggers, it's not about eating a histamine food or an enzyme deficiency. Like you don't have enough dao. It's when your mast cells, which are a type of immune cell that store histamine, they start releasing histamine unpredictably, sometimes with no clear trigger. Like out of the blue, it's being released and you, you literally are going, what's causing this for you? Fortunately, we know what's causing it. So when you eat, it stimulates histamine production in the digestive tract and then you can't clear it. Right? So we think that's probably what's happening with you because you're not getting this reaction non stop all over the place. So mast cells can be triggered by a whole bunch of things. Infections, physical or emotional trauma, environmental toxins, stress, or even temperature changes for some people. So this is a chronic condition that creates this state of immune system hyperactivity. And you're kind of always on edge. And I'm really hopeful and thankful that I don't think you're to that level. I think you're.

Aside from me, because I don'. But just in general, this is getting more and more common with women. What is your thoughts on why mast cell activation syndrome is all of a sudden, like more and more popular? And then also, why is histamine. So I'm not talking about allergy right now, not histamine allergy, but histamine intolerance. Why are both of those things all of a sudden? It's not just me walking through. There's a lot of women navigating these two things.

Gut microbiome. Gut microbiome. Gut microbiome. So support the mucosal lining, restore the microbiome, reduce inflammation. Like this is a restore response to something deeper. And so we have to start with gut. Also, it's important to, you know, support enzyme function. So Dao cofactors. So are you getting enough vitamin C, B6, copper? Are you reducing, you know, are you taking a DAO supplement to support that? But also the other piece that's driving this, Natalie, is the nervous system. So we've done a lot of talking about the nervous system today, calming that nervous system, whatever stress reduction looks like for you, but creating that stress resilience. When I'm in a stressful situation, I'm going to disconnect from it, pivot and go do something that calms me down, whatever that is. It doesn't have to be meditation. You've had some benefit from breath work. Breath work is great. You can do it anywhere, it's free. I would highly recommend everyone learn how to do some breath work, some vagal nerve stimulating breath work. Just. Just Google it. There's a million people on YouTube teaching breath work. So just go in and look at how do I. In. In minutes. And you've done it too, and it's been supportive. Absolutely. And then stabilizing the mast cells. Right. So, you know, kpv, pea, quercetin. I think for quercetin, we decided you can't use it because of your.

No, let's. I want to just talk through. And I know I don't want to make this all about supplements right now, but I want to talk about kind of in general. So Dao, what you mentioned is the enzyme. So if you thinking you're having an histamine intolerance, not a histamine allergy, histamine intolerance, I would say just from my own experience, first line is you need to eat lower histamine. That's a Whole other conversation. But you've got to go low histamine on your diet and that's. It may not be what you're thinking. You can literally go to Google or chat GPT and look up histamine free diet.

But you.

Because I was actually surprised how many histamine containing foods I was eating. And so I had to do a complete, you know, complete 180 to like what I'm eating versus what I was. So. But I think Dao is a pretty harmless thing to add. Right. It's an enzyme. You can add it 30 minutes before meals, which helps with that. There are, if you look up like a natural protocol for mast cell activation or histamine intolerance, you're going to see Pepcid and you're going to see a, like a Claritin or Allegra or. Which is funny because in the natural space you wouldn't think that would be there. But pretty much across the board I'm finding, I hear taking antihistamine and take Pepcid before meals too. There's three other things I know some you're very familiar with, some maybe not Laura, but I just want to mention them because I want to know if they're. If like anyone could do them. Have you heard of pea?

Yeah.

Okay. Is that pretty safe for anyone to do?

Yeah. So PEA is a fatty acid amide and it calms mast cells and supports the nervous system balance. We actually make it, it's natural, it's body produced and we can use it therapeutically as a supplement as well. And we know it helps with histamine issues, MCAs and also gut pain. So worth a try. Yeah.

So it's like a pretty harmless thing to add. Cromolyn, I know is not your thing. You can get it over the counter. I did get it from my doctor. It is something you can add 30 minutes before your meals that I just started playing with. And it's also supposed to help calm down that activation. Also, it sounds like it's pretty harmless too, like whether you're not going to make something worse. And then the other one you told me about was kpv, which is, yeah, this is big.

And we've seen a lot of people in my community have transformative results with kpv. Now there's also people who will take it and not feel anything different. So you got to try it.

Doesn't make it worse. It's not going to do anything.

Doesn't make it worse. So KPV is made from three amino acids. It's lysine, proline and valine. And when you string those amino acids together, it makes an anti inflammatory peptide. So what it does is it calms the immune response and supports the mucosal repair in the gut. And we use it in functional protocols for problems like inflammatory bowel disease, leaky gut, even skin inflammation. And for my people who come to me who are MCAs, histamine sensitive, they already know it. And so we've seen people start taking this who can finally start to expand what they can eat and be able to take the gut restoring protocols. Right. So it works by reducing the cytokine activity and it promotes the tissue healing and strengthening the immune system. And like I said, some people have extraordinary results. Yeah.

So it's another, it's another like worth to try. You also had suggested adding like BPC157 and oral. Can you explain that?

Yeah, yeah. So BPC157, very well known to support healing the gut. It's also really good for just general tissue repair. So anywhere in the body that there's an injury, it's supportive. But for gut microbiome, very supportive for leaky gut. So I would, I pair the two BPC157 and KPV. And then you mentioned Pepcid. So I think we should talk about.

Oh yeah, I wanna, that was a very confusing one for me because to me I'm like, no, you don't want to hurt your stuff.

It's an acid inducer.

Yeah, help me with that because I'm now taking it right now.

I know. And so this is interesting. So anytime somebody's having an allergic reaction. So H2 blockers are widely used in emergency rooms. When people come in with an allergic, major allergic reaction, they throw something like Pepcid or Tagamet or Zantac, any of those H2 blockers. Tagamet is the one that's often used in hospitals, but what it does is it primarily reduces histamine in the stomach. So H2 blockers reduce histamine. The reason they work for stomach acid is because when you reduce histamine you lower stomach acid. So we already know, we already know you have a stomach acid problem. And so now we're throwing an H2 blocker on there. Also is lowering histamine even more. But that's why it's used for symptom relief, for acid reflux and also for histamine flares. But long term, you're absolutely right. Long term use suppresses stomach acid which worsens digestion and microbiome imbalance. So.

So, okay.

It's just comfort band aid. It doesn't.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. So it doesn't address root cause, like DAO deficiency, leaky gut.

So everything else we mentioned is going to basically help with root cause. But the Pepcid is like a temporary thing. But you're not gonna. You don't have to be scared of taking it, like, if you have to do it temporarily.

Temporarily.

Can you answer about his antihistamines then for that too? Because that also threw me either doing like Allegra or Claritin or.

Absolutely. I highly recommend for temporary relief. Right. When you finally said to me, laura, I've had it, I'm gonna take an antihistamine, it was like, good because. Yeah, because the stress that this is causing, someone who has this kind of histamine flare, it prevents you from being able to get out of it. So you get in this crazy cycle of stress. Stress, stress, anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. And you cannot heal in that state. No. And this is where pharmaceuticals are actually quite helpful sometimes. So, yes, I'm all about taking antihistamine for a short term. You know, we have concerns about antihistamines long term in terms of brain health and all kinds of things. So short term to get you through the storm and the cycle, get you off that hamster wheel and so. And then you can move towards more natural healing modalities.

Okay, I'm going to ask you about Benadryl really quick in a minute. And an EpiPen.

Just, just.

I want to understand those, but before I do, just my little Natalie insight. I tried Allegra, Claridin, Anzotech, trying to figure this out. What I did find, even though Zyrtec is really the one main for hives, if you've got a nervous system thing, like, if you really are a high stress person, Zyrtex makes that worse. I will tell you that right now. It really ramps up your adrenaline. And yes, Allegra was the. The second, and Claritin is the most mild. So Claritin is like. Doesn't really ramp you up. It just kind of is neutral. So for me personally, I moved to a half a Claritin right now.

Those are hard to cut. Yeah, they're tiny.

You just put it in a little pill cutter and it's fine. But a Claritin is the weakest.

So if you're.

If you're like, I tried Zyrtex, it's.

That's terrible.

Or I tried. You can play with them. Actually, Dr. Tina is one I recommended. She said try all three and see everyone was unique and different. So do that now Benadryl for the actual flare up and reaction, like your full breakout and hives. You're like whatever it is. What does Benadryl actually do and why is that okay to do on top of a Claritin or whatever? I don't. Can you help us understand from your western days?

Yeah. Benadryl is the. Was the first of the antihistamines. It's a first generation. When we were kids, that's all we had. Right. There were none of these non drowsy. So what it does is it blocks histamine at the H1 receptor site. So there's four receptor sites. H1, H2, H3, H4. It blocks at the H1 receptor site and it reduces immediately the itching, the swelling, the rashes, the runny nose, the watery eyes, the sneezing. And it helps. It makes you sleepy because it crosses the blood brain barrier and causes that drowsiness.

Oh, I see.

So helpful for acute histamine reactions. Good for emergency support if you're waiting like. Like let's say somebody's really having a that true. IGE mediated histamine response. We talked about shellfish allergy. It's good like if you don't have an EpiPen or something. Give them a Benadryl.

Yeah. I literally had to take my throat when I had the highest reaction with it that first time. And I had that throat closing. That's what I did. Is the Benadryl. When you say H1 blocker, I just want to understand H1 blocker. It means it's like happening. So H2 is like what Pepcid does and then what were. And then did all those other things like that we mentioned, did those help with H2 as well? Like Pepsi Epsted.

I'm just.

I want to make sure I'm understanding is that all H2 or is that different?

Yeah. So actually I'd have to research that further. I don't know react on H3 or H4. The H1 receptors are definitely skin, lungs, blood and vessels. Okay. Who is obviously stomach lining. Got it. Three I know is central nervous system. So anything that's going to be.

I know chromolin. Is that cromolin? Central nervous system.

So that's a good. And then. And then H4 is immune cells, mast cells, eosinophils. So anything that modulates the immune response. So I would say probably more the peptides. If I'm guessing is more like an H4 support.

Okay, can we just talk? And I know this is, like, way not gonna happen to most people, but the EpiPen thing, how does that actually work? I know it's epinephrine, but why is that, like, help with an allergy emergency? Like a throat closing.

So epinephrine is your body's natural fight or flight hormone, so it counteracts the effects of histamine. Basically, it's a counteract for it. So opens up the airways. So you think about bronchodilation, opening it up, constricting blood vessels to raise blood pressure, slowing the release of histamine from mast cells, boosting heart function to keep the blood circulating. So it doesn't cure an allergy, but it buys. It buys critical time. It buys critical time.

I have become that person, Laura. In my purse or gym bag, you will find it anytime. I will not go anywhere without these things. You, all of you, if you are a neurotic health person like me, you probably have these things you're asking. I have salt in case of low blood pressure. I have electrolytes. I carry glucose tablets for low blood sugar. I carry aspirin in case someone has a heart attack around me. I carry now an EpiPen and Benadryl. That's who I've become. I carry all these things just as an.

In case I've become my mom.

I don't know. Actually, my mom just carry tissues, I think, in gum. Now I carry all those things.

Just. It's like you just.

You never know. You have it around. Not for me necessarily, but you don't know, by the way, if you all didn't know that if someone's having a heart attack, you're supposed to give them aspirin right away before you call 911 and give them an aspirin. So that's why I carry those. Okay. Laura. You are always so helpful. You all enrolled Laura in doing this again for me. I had to because now that I'm on gut topic, we have done. There's a class we do together. We've done this probably six times before. We're doing it again. We always tweak it a little bit, but we're going to do a deep dive on gut and, like, what's going on. How to prevent getting pathogens, how what we need to do about it if we are getting it. How to be gut strong, how to be gut healthy. We're doing a. It's a live interactive workshop. We do it over zoom webinar, basically.

So you.

You jump on with us. I'll kick it off. Laura's going to teach. She teaches in a. You. You all have heard how she talks. She teaches very simple. And we leave plenty of room for Q and A where you're able to ask her whatever you want about your stuff. And then she always leaves spots for my people in her program. Very discounted.

So.

So if you come and you learn and you get all questions answered and you want to go another level, you'll have a special offer to be able to join in her community and her program. Gosh. I've sent hundreds of my clients, hundreds of them through Laura stuff. Yeah, yeah. And they are. It's, it's just, it works so well, especially if you've done my fat loss stuff and then you couple it with that. It's just, it's just awesome. So I'll link it all in the show notes below. But if you go to midlifeconversations.com forward/gus gut. So midlifeconversations.Com forward/gut it will redirect to that class. It is free. But you do have to save your spot and sign up. And we will be on there together going way deeper, very specific, like what you can do, what to look for, all the things.

This will be a really deep dive on supporting gut health.

Amazing. Thank you so much, Laura, and thanks for my million text question answers and thanks for always coming back and educating my audience.

I love you. Anytime.