Metabolic Approach to Midlife Health with Dr. Nasha Winters

Because I've heard that. And then my question is then, why doesn't every pregnant women have cancer? Because they're releasing tons of estrogen. So help me with that.

Because endogenous application, so what your own body makes is not the problem. It's how it's metabolized or how it gets jammed up or convoluted because of other exogenous information. Too much stress, too many carbs, you know, too many toxins in the environment. That's where what nature intended goes awry.

Today on Midlife conversations, I've got Dr. Naysha Winters. And I've been so looking forward to this conversation. She wrote the book called the Metabolic Approach to Cancer, which by the way, it's not just for you if you have cancer. This is for everybody. I was gifted this book and I could not put it down. I think I'm an encyclopedia for this book now. I've now officially read it or listened to it five times because, because of Dr. Nisha Winters. I have changed so much of my life. So much I've added in, I've changed out my products. It's so incredible. So I can't wait to have her on today. Thank you so much for being here. I can't wait to dive in and have a conversation with you.

I love it. I love it. I love it. I love, I love getting to be in front of new people. I love getting to be in front of new audiences. And I really love your, what you were sharing with me before we started recording about. Just like this is. This is like a handbook of how to live well on an unhealthy planet. And I really appreciate that you yourself realize you do not have to have nor wait for a cancer diagnosis to start having these conversations.

No, this is what, what you teach is so relevant for all of us. I think it's going to help people reduce their biological age. It's going to help people thrive in midlife. There's, there's so many benefits to this and to avoid just all disease actually, in general, like type 2 diabetes. There's so much that you teach. And then one thing we're going to address on this episode today, I'm just preparing everyone now. I've had a lot of guests on about hormones and she has a different view on it. So I want to talk about that view, too. This is important, especially those of you that you know having questioning, like your doctor said one thing and you're hearing another. We're going to look at the other side. Then maybe the negatives of why we don't want to do hormones. We're going to look at that too. So I, gosh, I don't even know where to start, but I'm just going to dive in. Let's, let's start with why did you even get interested in the metabolic approach to cancer? Like, where did that even come from?

Sure. Well, it's, you know, I think anybody in the field of cancer in general, none of us really chose this as a vocation. It sort of chose us. Right. So personalized stories, people that you care about being touched by cancer today, I mean, gosh, 30 years ago or 25 years, I'd stand up in front of a room of people and say, how many of you here have been touched by cancer? And maybe a dozen hands would go up in a room of a couple hundred people today. I've had to reframe that question to say, how many of you have not been directly touched by cancer? And now you might get a couple of hands go up in the room. So that is within a 25 year span of differences. So we're all touched by this. My own story. I was actually. I love that I'm talking to like a woman about women's health things too here, because I had no good health, although I lived with it for so long, it was insidious. I just assumed that all women had pcos, endometriosis, thyroid dysfunction, rheumatoid arthritis, ibs. Those were the collection of diseases I had all before the age of 19.

Wow.

Yeah. By the time I was a sophomore in college, summer before my sophomore in college, I was ending up in and out of the ER every single month with unbelievable pain. I was put on antibiotics for UTIs, and then I'd be put on antifungals for the yeast infections that, I mean, it was just the nightmare, right? And then they started trying to put me on anxiolytics because they just thought I was a histrionic teenager. And, and it was like I just, it was dismissed, dismissed, dismissed. And I kept saying, something's really wrong. And they all thought it was just more continuation of the same patterns I'd had previously. That went on until I landed in the ER a couple weeks shy of my 20th birthday when my roommate basically found me unresponsive. Massive swelling in my belly, really malnourished. By the time I got to the hospital, my oxygen levels were in the 70s. I had a mass, a massive. They finally sent me in for imaging. They had a mass in my right ovary the size of a grapefruit. They found my liver. Peritoneal implants, carcinomatosis, which are.

And you were not even 20. Oh, my gosh.

Just shy of that. And they're like, oh, sheesh, you know, like, this is not more of the same. This is a whole nother animal. They were so shocked by what was going on, as, of course, was I, that they said, unfortunately, there's nothing we can do. Your organs are failing. My kidneys were shut down, my liver was shut down. I had fluid in my abdomen, I had fluid in my lungs, I had fluid around my heart. And they basically triaged me, got me safe enough to say, go home and die. And so that was 31 and a half years ago. Right. And so that experience, I did not expect to live. That was not what I set out to do. I just. And especially, honestly, Natalie, to be really frank with you and your audience, I had actually tried to take my life a few times before that. Come from, you know, kind of a crazy background, which I also understand how that contributes to our health and wellbeing. But fast forward, what that moment did for me, what it continues to do for me, is it lit a pilot light and it basically said, why me? Or basically, why not me? Because that's really the question of today. And so that's what has put me on this 30 plus year journey of studying every single thing I can about why we get sick, why we all can have cancer or not have cancer expressing in our bodies, how to determine what to do about it for each of us individually. But more importantly, the only cure for cancer is actual prevention. I mean, we all have cancer cells all the time. So once it gets up and running, it's sort of up to us to maintain it. So how about we have the conversations prior to even needing to contain it?

Okay, so I've got a lot of questions here, and I want to dive into prevention, but before I do that, on prevention, if somebody's listening right now and they have cancer, they have a diagnosis. Like, regardless of stage, they're stage two, they're early, they're stage four. What do you want them to know before we dive into this conversation?

Oh, so good. Well, first of all, please know that you are far more powerful than you've been led to believe. You have a much bigger hand and role in what the outcomes are than you've been led to believe. Whether you're stage one or stage four. There is absolutely no reason why a stage four person cannot live well with cancer for a very long time. And die of something completely different. In fact, that's probably the biggest paradigm shift I would like to drop into the center of this discussion today. Being someone who would never standard of care would probably not qualify me as no evidence of disease all these years later. And yet here I am, thriving into my 50s with better health now than I had in my teens and 20s and 30s and 40s. And so I want you to know that there's choices, there's things to do along with standard of care. There's things to do instead of standard of care when standard of care is no more choices or options for you. And there's certainly things to do when you're in the survivorship area, when you maybe gone through standard of care and now you're like, I don't ever want to do that rodeo again. There's things you can do at that time as well. So please know you have options that may not be offered to you in a lot of the medical environments that you've already gone to.

Okay? Now, if someone's hearing that and they are in the thick of traditional, like their chemo, their radiation, they're in the trick of thick of treatment. Can they apply what we are going to be sharing today alongside with that 100%?

In fact, I still don't understand, with all of the decades I've been at this, why what you and I are talking about today is not standard of care. There is no need to make a decision between the two. We've evolved to a place and our medical technologies and our medical understanding has evolved to a place to recognize there is room at the table for both the best of what standard of care has to offer, plus the best of vetted, for lack of better words, alternative therapies. And so there's no reason to shun one or the other. The biggest difference is that you have also the ability to know exactly what you need at any given time. That might be a repurposed standard of care drug, that might be a lower dose of chemotherapy, that might be that you've already exhausted all of that standard of care has to offer and now it's time to look elsewhere. It doesn't matter where you are. There are always options until you basically take the last breath.

Okay, let's talk prevention and what creates cancer to grow. And again, we're teaching this from your perspective, your research. What? So if you are listening right now and you have a different view, I'm just going to encourage you to just have an open mind. It's just we. The more information we have the better choices we can make for ourselves. I even myself as I was reading the book, there were a few things I was like super triggered. I'm like, wait, I don't agree with that. Doesn't align with what I know. But I reminded myself, as I'm reminding you, listening, we can't evolve and get better if we don't keep an open mind and learn. And even if you don't agree with something, take it on, consider it. And there's no reason not to try things on. So. So I wanted to kind of put that out there. So let's talk from your perspective. What creates cancer to grow.

Perfect. So again, you know, 19, 20 year old. Why? Why like especially remember back in early 1990, 91, 92. First of all, there was no Dr. Google, all right? We did not have the resources. We do not have access to the things we have today. We did not even know the things about cancer that we know today. So please have context around all of this. The other thing is even this book that we're discussing today came out in May of 2017. I could literally double the content of this book today from the research that's come out. There is literally nothing that has been completely negated outside of the fact that on page 191 we said maybe this is not. Maybe a ketogenic diet is not a good idea for prostate cancer. Beyond that, that's probably the only I would actually change. Oh, that and Brazil nuts. But we'll come back to that. Okay.

Oh yeah, I need to know about Brazil nuts. I started adding them.

So good. So these are like two things that might have have a different conversation, but ultimately the rest of it has been. Is quite robust. Right. Stood the test of times and it's actually had more data backing it. I'm a data driven person, so whatever is said in this book is yes, there's clinical experience and clinical opinion, personal opinion, but I'm also really fastidious around referencing resourcing. The book has almost 300 plus references, so go have a day. And there's so many more to add to that since then. Back it up. What is cancer? We've been taught since 1914 that cancer is a genetic disorder, that it's a somatic mutation theory that was brought to light in 1914 by Dr. Theodore Bovary. That's how we've all been thinking about cancer and applying our research and applying our treatments to cancer ever since. We really hoped that when we exposed the genome that we'd find the secret sauce of how to prevent and treat cancer. Unfortunately, we didn't. In early 1920s, there was another scientist who started recognizing some things he was seeing in the lab, that in petri dishes and in cancer cells and people with cancer, that there was a change in metabolic activity, that there was a change in the mitochondrial, both number and function, effectiveness, et cetera. And he started to explore this. This guy was Dr. Otto Warburg, a little bit of a controversial figure even today when we talk about him, but he stumbled upon something which was that cancer cells had deranged metabolism, had deranged mitochondria. And it was at that level that we created vulnerabilities in our DNA, in our genetics that then could be switched into cancer. But it was much more than just genetics too. It was like the backing up. It's like, okay, Dr. Bovary was onto something. But there was actually a step before the genetics expressed in that way. That theory, actually the metabolic theory of cancer, and cancer as a metabolic disorder, actually held pretty steady and strong and even outpaced the genetic theory until the 1950s, 1960s when Watson and Crick of DNA Helix fame had their research come to bear and everyone kind of jumped back into the DNA boat and away we went. We've started to build upon the ideas and the concepts of Dr. Otto Warburg since the 1980s. People like Dr. Mina Bissell, badass cancer researcher, 40 years at this, showing that it's not the cancer cell or the tumor itself that's the problem. It's what the milieu is that that tumor or tumor cell is lying in. Others have talked about it as the extracellular matrix, others have talked about it as the terrain. That's how I describe it. But we've really started to understand that cancer is much more complex than just a gen. And so when I look at what made that mitochondria shift, what made that metabolic shift happen, that then led to vulnerable DNA. That's when I started to, in my own career and my own pattern recognition and gathering tens of thousands of patients data, started to look at about 10 major drivers or things that could flip the switch from a non cancering to a cancering process. And I'll kind of briefly go down in order. So epigenetics is one, and epigenetics is what's been handed down to you from previous generations. Now that is not set in stone. Those genes, those are genes that EPI means above the gene, which also means you can overcome that expression 90 to 95% depending on the research you're looking at. Of all of our chronic illnesses, including cancer, are epigenetically driven, meaning we have the control to change its expression. Genetically driven. Diseases that are just like these are fast and furious, these are stagnant, hard to change that. That constitutes less than 5 to 10% of all diseases, especially cancer.

So if someone says like I have breast cancer in my family or I have pancreatic cancer, I have this thing, you're saying that that is part of it, but it's what's turning that on. That's the bigger issue.

Nailing it. That is exactly it. And so we know we've got those propensities, those predispositions that you just spoke to, but the other nine drops in that bucket are what express that or suppress that. Okay. Those other drops include our metabolic health. So specifically, how are we eating and fueling ourselves? And so the way even western medicine defines metabolic health is without pharmaceutical intervention, are you able to achieve a good blood pressure120 over 80ish. Are you able to achieve a good blood sugar? They qualified as under 100. That's too, too much. It needs to be 85 for that.

Under 85 consistently all day long.

Like really a 20%, a 20 point change after.

Okay, so okay, got it.

Higher. But fasted a body fat composition under 25%. Okay, that's so. So whether you are body fat like externally looking heavy or internally, as I discussed on a podcast this morning, it's almost like fat wrapped around your organs. So you might be tofy thin on the outside fat, like the visceral fat.

Yes, exactly.

It's like basically you're like bacon wrapped organs. Right. So you need to qualifying for that. You also need to be conditioned. Meaning can you comfortably go for a really, you know, good. Like can you do a 10 minute mile type of thing? There's that piece and then you know, the other component is your waist to hip ratio. So your BMI or your. Exactly. And a little bit because even then you can have a, you have a low or a high bmi, but you can still have your hips wider than your. So we want to look at those. Those are some.

And you said without pharmaceutical interventions. So if I'm hearing correctly. So that's not. If you're on metformin, that's not. If you're on blood pressure medicine. This. Like if your lifestyle is allowing for these things, nail it.

And that's where. And then that you just remind me the other one is to have a good lipid profile now.

Okay.

Your lipid range and mine differ because. Yes, For a variety of reasons. We can go on that topic at another time. But basically without, you know, having good triglycerides under 90 and HDL, your good cholesterol over 70 is ideal. And so without.

So everyone listening, don't panic. Now if you're like, okay, two of those things are off, like, I'll, I'll just own mine. I mean, mine. And I eat really, really healthy and clean. My lipid profile is not good. My triglycerides are good. My lipid profile has been off genetically my whole life. And I've created a story around that.

Love it.

And my blood sugar eating the way that I was until I actually started going keto, like really concentrating on keto. My blood sugar after eating was going all the way up to 200 just from having like. Just from having like an apple. Yeah. So. So I want people listening to also hear that because I'm someone who doesn't fit. Like I don't have the body fat or the, the bmi. I don't. I look like the profile. And so I would have been that person that I have the genetic marker. And I would have said, oh, it's genetics. But I wasn't looking at all of these variables that are so critical. So this is really good. So if you're listening, don't panic. If you have things I'm telling you, I'm learning too. So this is good.

And the cool thing is they're all things that we can change. They're all figureoutable. You know, that, that statement out there. And the interesting thing, that's just the metabolic drop in the bucket. And just so you and your listeners know, not only are you struggling with two of those five or six things, 93% of the population.

Wow.

That 93% of the population. 93.7%. Actually, it's either 93.3. But basically less than 7% of us in the western world and specifically in the United States are considered metabolically healthy. That right there should be a ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

It's a huge ding, ding, ding. So. So that you said there's 10 drivers, that's just one of them. But this is a huge issue.

Yes, exactly. And so that one takes the literal and pun intended cake of that piece. Then we follow it with toxins. Like it's no matter if you're toxic. It's. You are. And how bad is it and how does it interplay with your metabolic health and your epigenetics? Then we look at your microbiome, just a Couple of years ago, everyone pretended it didn't exist.

No, that's important.

It's all the hot topic, right? Yeah. Look at immune system. If you've been living under a rock the last few years, you probably realize that our immune systems are not working well. Then we talk about inflammation. We're known as the inflammation era. Then we talk about angiogenesis, which specific to cancer, which is new blood vessel growth to tumors. But more particular in both prevention and treatment is oxygenation and perfusion, like how well are you perfusing? And then we look at hormone modulation, that's the key word here. We're going to come back to that in a moment about hormone modulation. And then stress response and circadian rhythm is another drop in the bucket. And the final big drop is the mental emotional component. And so those 10 drops, epigenetics, metabolic toxin, microbiome, immune system inflammation, oxygenation, hormone health imbalance, stress and circadian rhythm and mental emotional are the 10 drops.

Wow.

When I have people tell me I was healthy until I got cancer, I always remind them that was literally impossible.

Yes. And what I'm also seeing you listing these out here, is that one of these things, if not addressed, will create the other problems. So like microbiome can create your metabolic issue which then creates stress or sleep. So it's like, so it seems to me that it's worth like really diving into each of these things or like toxins, you think it's just. Even your house has mold. Let's say you're going to create a whole chain of events. So that's why they're all actually important, because one thing will spin the others out of control. I would imagine you are.

Oh, Natalie, perfect. That is exactly spot on. That none of these happen in a vacuum and that there's usually a blind spot or two or ten in some situations. And at the beginning of the book we have a little questionnaire. In fact we have an updated version of that. Since the five year mark of the book, my co author and I updated our questionnaires on our websites and whatnot. But what you will find is that you can go through even what's in the book right now. Go through do the Terrain 10 questionnaire to understand those 10 different drops in the bucket with 10 basic questions and see which of those you score the highest in. When you see maybe your top one to three, that's where you might go dive in and just read those chapters and see what blind spots you had and start the journey of self awareness, of curiosity, exploration and changing things out very slowly. And you know, and to your, to your point, Natalie, you started us off saying, I've made so many changes in my household. Most people won't do, do that overnight. So looking at your priorities and starting to tackle them one at a time.

And I was full cold turkey. I'm an A plus student. I was like, everything goes. It was, it was actually pretty funny. And then what I, what I also loved is especially just looking at one of the big things that came up with me around keto was, well, I don't want to not have, you know, this whole variety of vegetables. But what I learned from her was like, it's not just vegetables, it's herbs, it's spice. Like, there's so many ways to create this healthy gut biome that that can change things for you. So I want to dive into some of these, like, very specific topics, if.

You'Re okay with it.

Like, I want to dive into metabolic health since that seems to be the biggest problem. And I want to explain keto from your perspective. And like, what actually. So, for instance, so I can't say that I'm extreme keto. Like, I'm not exact, but I've been very good about being under a certain amount of carbs and being there. I'm not testing myself for ketones. So let's start with that. Like, how important is it for you to actually be in ketosis versus just eating a really low processed food, like very like low carb diet.

Perfect. Well, a little back background information on this. First of all, we're all born in ketosis or should be, right? So that's, that's designed so we actually survive. So we also naturally go in or historically for tens of thousands of years were in ketosis for part times of the year because food scarcity, what was available and what was not available. So we were so perfectly divinely created to be able to utilize burning of fat or burning of sugar as the resources were available. Up until the 1850s, we were all, at least in the west and west meaning European. You know, most, most parts of the planet were very, before 1850, low carb, what we would call low carb today. OK. Because we were eating seasonally, we were eating locally, and we were working very hard for those carbs, right? And so we had to put a lot of energy out to get that energy in until we hit the industrial food revolution in the 1850s. We then started to mill sugar and flour. We started to have, you know, into the early 1900s, like refrigeration. We Started to be able to transport things. We started to be able to eat a little bit differently than we'd ever eaten in our humanity. And so we went from an average of 5 pounds of sugar per person per year in 1850-145-175, depending on the research today. Today, right. That's a big change in what's really a short period of time in human evolution. So that started to throw things off. That started to create a lot of the processes we're talking about today. We die of metabolic diseases today. Cardiovascular disease, diabetes, obesity, cancer, dementias, Alzheimer's, in particular. It's actually known as type 3 diabetes today. So these are the things that plague us today. And that's thanks to that metabolic instability that I rattled off earlier. We're less than 7% of us are actually metabolically healthy. So that's a big one right there. So maybe that's where we take a breath and see if there's anything to unpack before we move into the next piece.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. So let's. So that being said, what, what some people hear is just eliminate sugar. So I used to think that too, like, just, oh, I'll just take out processed sugar, but, like, fruit is great, or I'll just take out, you know, I'll just include whole grains as long as they're gluten free. And what. I don't, I didn't connect the dots that what we are taught is healthy. And I'm a, a sports nutritionist, Like, I'm educated on this. What we were taught as healthy doesn't translate necessarily to metabolic health. Because, for instance, like, if a sweet potato or an apple is spiking your blood sugar, you might think you're eating healthy, but we're creating a metabolic problem. So, so what you're saying to me makes total sense. Somebody listening might be catching up on that right now. But I want to explain now, like, how do you advise people eat for metabolic health? And most importantly, when people hear keto, they automatically think, high protein, high fat, no carbs. Right? That's what they go to. And then how do we. So how is that the right way to do it to make your lipid profile say, okay, perfect.

Okay, so two things here. First of all, you can't know how well you're doing with your blood sugar unless you test, right? So you really can't know. So test, assess, address, don't guess is my mantra. Okay? And so with that, you can do simple things like your basic. Like A glucose blood test that you do at your annual physical really means nothing. It's a snapshot in time. It's very variable. You could have worked out, by the way.

Mine was normal, y'.

All.

So that's how I didn't know until I had a monitor on. Yeah, right.

Thank you. Exactly. So this is what's perfect. It's like you can kind of fudge your fasting glucose. If you had a workout, you fasted a little bit longer. You cannot so easily fudge something known as a hemoglobin A1C, which is the average of your blood sugars over three months. You cannot fudge your insulin. You know, you really can't fudge something called C peptide or insulin growth factor. Those two are more specific in our cancer testing world. So those are pieces of information. The other piece of information is, is P sticks. Like, get your ketone sticks, pee on them in the morning after fasting. So no food for 12 to 13 hours. Pee on the stick in the morning if you're metabolically healthy. 13 hours. You should see even just some trace ketones. Just trace. Okay. If you're not, well, then maybe go 13 and a half hours, 14 hours and eat up a little longer fast until you see trace ketones on there. Yeah. Simple, cheap, $6 off. Right. Safe for most part. You know, if you. If you're not sure, please talk with your medical provider. Once you start to see moderate to high ketones, maybe you're starting to practice the concept of intermittent fasting. 16 to 18 hours. And notice here what I'm saying. This is just foregoing a food. This isn't even eating high fat, high protein, whatever. So just know that there are multiple roads to roam to create a state of metabolic flexibility and a physiologic state of ketosis. There is a way to do it through a ketogenic diet, or there's a way to do it from exogenous ketones or pharmaceuticals or fasting or various forms of fasting. There's a lot of different ways to do it, but I like to start people simply by a little bit of caloric restriction, because that's also where the longevity researchers say we our biggest buck. Right.

Wow.

That.

And that is. I love that because everyone can add that. That's like an easy ad. She's not saying give up anything yet. She's just saying add this.

Exactly. And in fact, that's a really good. There's a great study that came out, MD Anderson a years ago showing that women who'd had breast Cancer. He did a huge study. Women who had breast cancer who fasted 13 hours a day, they didn't. They could have been eating Twinkies all day long, fasted all that time, had a 70% less recurrence rate than those who ate ad libim. Meaning.

And y', all, 13 hours is easy. That's like, you can have your dinner at 7 and not eat again until I. Like, that's not a hard thing. This is not. Like, I get when you want all your food in just four hours. But, like, that's not hard what you're talking about.

The crazy thing is you'd be shocked at how hard that actually is for many people.

Really. Okay.

Okay. I would say in my. In my practice, I'd say 80% of.

People struggle with that because they want to eat earlier, they want to eat later. What comes.

They're like, but I have to have. I have to have a snack before I go to bed. I get up and I'm hungry in the middle of the night. I have to eat the second I pop out of bed in the morning. I get hangry, I get shaky, I get anxious. Those are signs of metabolic instability. Those are signs that say, you got to work harder to get to that point. And so that segues into what Natalie was talking about. About, well, what about fruit and what about sweet potatoes and what about legumes? And, well, until you are back to being metabolically flexible and able to move in and out of that dual engine burning of fat or sugar, you are going to have to push a little harder to achieve metabolic flexibility. And then you have to be a living laboratory to see how it works in you. Or not. It's not going to be the same across the board. So there are reasons for that. It could be, like, how sick have you been for how long? Pharmaceuticals can make these problems happen. Certain medical conditions, but a big one is our epigenetics. So certain SNPs. Single nucleotide polymorphism. So in my household, I can eat a pint of raspberries at this point, it will do nothing to my sugars. My husband will eat three and his insulin.

See, that's amazing. Yeah. And if you have the genetic lottery, like me, like APOA and MTHFR and.

All the things you are, my.

You.

My husband must be related. Yeah.

I can't have. And I was a huge fruit fan. Like, a huge fruit fan. And now I'm like, I really. I can have. Like. And it's so interesting. It's so different for everybody. Like, I Can have. Tangerines I can have. There's a few things I can have and definitely some I cannot anymore. Like pineapple.

Forget it. Right.

Anymore.

You were like, that's exactly. So that's the thing is this is the beauty. Once you achieve that little bit of ketosis on your. On your urine. And this is an important thing for your listeners. Listen also when people say, well, I always check my urine and my ketones are always good and I don't understand why I'm still not losing weight or I don't know. Well, the crazy thing is once you actually become fat adapted, once you actually start to burn fat as fuel instead of carbohydrates, you should not be seeing ketones in your urine anymore.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

That always trips people out.

Yeah.

Then you have to graduate to a ketone blood monitor.

Okay, so what is that? Is that different than a glucose monitor?

What is that? Well, you can get. There's one, There's a company that's cheaper than what's on the market. And I don't actually think from this, but Keto Mojo is the group Keto Mojo, they have very cheap, both blood and blood glucose and blood ketone strips. And it's just a little simple finger stick. They're actually very pain free. I'm shocked at how device their little sticker is. It's actually really easy. And then you can start to see for yourself. Oh, yeah, I'm showing trace ketones now. So basically nutritional ketosis is being between 0.5 to 2. And then you start to get into therapeutic ketosis above 2 on your blood ketones. For somebody like you, Natalie, who's just like, I'm just about, you know, like, I want to age well. I want to utilize the implications of what ketones can do for the rest of my body. They lower inflammation, they sharpen your brain, they, you know, help that, that middle age spread. They do all the different. Like, there's so many things that are really good just in general, but in the cancer world, they pull all the levers of the hallmarks of cancer. So that's an important little side note. But with that, you probably only need to be in and out of ketosis somewhere between 0.5 and 2 on your blood. Right.

Good to know.

You can cycle it. You can cycle it. If you're. If you are a menstruating woman, there are certain times that you probably don't want to be in deep ketosis or trying to fast or be in ketosis the week before your period. That doesn't make unless you're.

No, that doesn't work. Unless you want to kill everybody in your world.

They're all fearing for their lives. But if you're, if you're dealing with certain cancers or certain epileptic issues, talk to your physician about how to navigate that territory. But if you're a general person, you know, doing this for health implications or long term survivorship post treatment or prevention of cancer, then you might want to do your ketones around your cycle. So my colleague, dear friend, brilliant Women health expert, Dr. Mindy Peltier.

Yeah, I've interviewed her on here.

I heard her. Well, her new book Fast like a Girl is so freaking fantastic because she goes into how we actually fast and navigate this territory of metabolic flexibility with regards to our cycles. Because women do have to do this differently than men. We're not, we're not small men. Right. Our bodies are wired differently. So her book is great. If you're someone not dealing with cancer, go and read that. That will really inspire you.

So.

So you do.

If I'm hearing you correctly, it's. This is not like an all or nothing situation. You don't have to be an A plus student. So if you're keto some of the times, if you're like working towards it, it doesn't have to be perfection. That's still going to help. Am I hearing that correct?

100%. And again I want to the caveat of depending on your medical condition. So there are certain cancer types that I would not cycle keto and there are certain places where being in a state of therapeutic ketosis is really critical through different facets of the treatment. That's where a colleague who's been trained in this arena, really important don't go that al.

But if you're listening and you're not navigating cancer right now and you're like me where you had some test off or something, it's okay to do be like a B minus student to start.

Even a C minus student.

Okay.

Big leaps forward.

I will say doing keto ish because I say I'm keto ish. My A1C went from pre diabetic, which was 5.8 to 4.3.

Oh my gosh, girl. So first of all, 5.8, I'm gonna totally freak out your listeners. Right. In my world, remember labs are based on the average of the population.

Exactly.

So a 5.8 in my world is already very diabetic.

Really? Well, that's how I mean I listen. I sounded the alarms like that I Went strict when that happened. So 4.3 is probably pre to you then.

4.3 is gorgeous. So if somebody dealing with cancer or if they have a strong family predisposition to metabolic disorders. It sounds like you did here. Yes. We want you under five.

Yeah, you know, I am. Yes.

But.

But I did it doing keto ish, everybody. So you can do it. And it took like four weeks. So keto ish, I love.

And I love that you show people. Like, I tell people if I have somebody coming in with a. With an A1C of 5 point. So my cutoff is 5 point. If you hit 5.6, you're already into diabetes still.

Yeah.

There's no such thing. We joke in my world, like, there's no such thing as pre diabetic. It's like being pre. It's like being sort of pregnant. Yeah. Or you aren't. And it's not going to go away on its own. Right. It's gonna keep.

Yes. And traditional doctors would have also any endocrinologist would say go to a metformin. So that's why I, like, love what you teach. Because, like, I didn't use metformin. This is just. I didn't use a zombie pack or whatever that thing is everyone's doing. I didn't use any of that. I just changed what I was eating. I dialed it in another notch. I added in the fasting, and I added in keto ish.

So, okay, how do you do keto.

Without messing up your lipids? Because especially if you have, like, the freaky genes like APOA or whatever. Like I do. So how do. How do people do that?

Well, again, I would be looking at your SNPs if you had a family history or suddenly your lipid profile comes back and it's like, whoa, now you're like 400 on your overall cholesterol. First of all, that is. So just remember, folks who are back in my era, when I graduated medical school in 2000, the cutoff for. Actually, up until 1996, before statins hit the market, the cutoff for Overall cholesterol was 399. Okay. For triglycerides was 399. The cutoff for LDL was 399. We didn't even know about HDL.

Yeah.

Over the years, they've chopped that back down. Oh, you need to be under 350. Oh, you need to be under 300. Oh, under 250. Under 200. Oh, under 175. Just so you guys know, once you get under 175 on your overall cholesterol. You are now at risk for all mortality.

Whoa, whoa, that's a mic drop. Okay, no one's heard that. Yeah, yeah.

So it's like you're demyelinating your brain, your nervous system. You are absolutely killing your liver, the lipids by. Or lipid drugs, like statin drugs cause metabolic syndrome.

Interesting.

Okay, so it's awful. Like, you don't want that. You stop making hormones. Cholesterol is the mother hormone.

Yes. And it protects you. It's designed to protect you. Right.

So what is.

What is your red flag cholesterol. So, like, what is.

So I don't even care about overall cholesterol unless it's like, if it's too low, I'm more worried about it being too high high. What I care about is a triglyceride under 90 over 70. The rest of it is basically like you said, sort of genetic variability. And I will get those clues in other testing. So with somebody high cholesterol, I'm like, first of all, are you hypothyroid? Second of all, are you on hormone replacement therapy? Any birth control, ivf? It's steroids. Those will also jack up your cholesterol. And then for the other thing is, like, then what's going on with your kidney function? You'll notice that it's far down on the totem pole before I start questioning their cardiovascular health.

Okay.

And that's easily tested with a homocysteine and a C reactive protein and a galectin 3. If those are all within normal range, you are not going to die of a heart attack. No one died of hypothyroidism.

That's good to know. I love that you just shared that. Okay. Because you just mentioned it. I got to go there because I am, and I'm very public about it. I'm a fan. Fan of bioidentical hormones. And they changed my life. So you're about to scare me right now. One of those things. I'm reading her book. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Don't go there. Okay. So I am on a very low dose of bioidentical hormones because I was having hot flashes and I was about to kill someone and there was. I just could not deal any longer. So I. I did. I caved into that. Help me understand the other side because I've had a lot of guests on talking about difference between synthetic and bioidentical. Do you have ranges? Do you think it's bad for everybody? And Talk to us about that.

Okay. So I was in private practice for 17 years where I focused in on oncology. I literally needed bioidentical hormones five times in my whole entire practice. I had a practice of 2500 patients, women of every. From PMS to fertility to menopause to perimenopause, to all the things. Because what I learned in that time and what my mentors and teachers taught me was that our symptoms are not hormone deficiency. They're hormone imbalances. And we're all wired. And what we've learned since then is we're also wired in particular ways of the way we metabolize our hormones. And now, thanks to all the lovely endocrine disruptors in the world around us, it's more confusing to our chemistry than ever before. So that's one caveat.

Okay.

The other thing, if you have brought Mindy on, you might have talked about her menopause reset. This is where I fell in love with Mindy. Because every single person. There's a lot of books out there. I'm like, I really love it. Until they start to push the horm. And then I'm like. Because in my world, you guys remember, my world is through the filter of cancer. Yes. Estrogen is a cancer cell proliferator.

Let me ask you this before you keep going on that very, very, very. This is my big question.

Yeah.

Because I've heard that. And then my question is, then why doesn't every pregnant women have cancer? Because they're releasing tons of estrogen. So help me with that.

Because endogenous application. So what your own body makes is not the problem. It's how it's metabolized or how it gets jammed up or convoluted because of other exogenous information. Too much stress, too many carbs, you know, too many toxins in the environment. That's where what nature intended goes awry.

Okay.

Okay. So that's a. I love that that point got brought up, because that's very important. So here's the next layer we have since. Because when I was in medical school, I too was trained. I was like the baby boomer of the bioidentical hormone replacement world. Let me really clarify something right now. And this drives me nuck and futs from all my colleagues, women, that bioidentical hormones are natural. They are not natural. Bioidentical simply means that they mimic your own hormones so well that they're called bioidentical. They're still. They're still synthetic. They're still outside of you, they're still exogenous. Nothing about them is natural. In fact, what we do know is they bind to the receptor site much more firmly than our own endogenous. So they vie for and sort of bully their way into the receptor site. So they like fill up the garage with a lot of stuff, which then we also know it's very. And this is, I'm not making this up. Look at all the research about when you have filled up the garage with your exogenous hormones, you also then no longer properly process your thyroid hormone. And when the thyroid hormone goes off, whack. Then your adrenals are affected. And when the adrenaline, like it just, you see, it's like a whack a mole game. So we have this moment of like, oh my God, I feel so much better. But maybe it's just a temporary bandage is what I offer.

So you're saying so bioidentical, we have to be careful because just because you're fixing a symptom, just like you would say with a pharmaceutical, like you're fixing a symptom, you could be creating another issue that affects your thyroid or your adrenal. So what is your. Do you suggest that people do like maca. Like what. What is your suggestion? They do focus on balancing your hormones and because it is real, like you're losing estrogen as you get older, you're losing testosterone. Like, what do you recommend?

Oh, you're not lo, you're, you're, you're not losing, you're shifting. You're handing the baton to other organs and other tissues of the body.

Right, but we don't want to hand the baton. We want to like, feel good and look right.

But you know, I mean, in the cancer world, the longer you're exposed to estrogen, the higher risk of all cancer types, period. Okay, so I started bleeding at nine years old. I started my menstruation A decade later, I was dying of ovarian cancer. The longer a woman is exposed to her. So the longer menarche to menopause, that's, that's, well, that's well associated. Now remember, cancer used to be a condition of the elderly, but now we're seeing, I mean, I, I've consulted on four cases of 10 year olds, people younger than 10 years old with ovarian cancer, for crying out loud. Something's changed and no one's asking the why. So the next thing we have to look at with folks today that we didn't know all those years ago was why would hormone replacement therapy be Dangerous for one person, maybe not as dangerous for another. That's when we started looking at the epigenetics all over again. So if you were a woman that has CYP1B1 calm tea and any vitamin D snips and any glutathione snips, you have, what's considered. There's actually lots of good researchers published these in different places that that combination means that you basically do not properly metabolize your endogenous hormones, which puts you at higher risk. And you definitely don't metabolize exogenous hormones very well. So you store it in all the wrong places at all the wrong times. Times. All right.

Okay. If someone is on all of this, like me, and they want to. They're like, okay, I need to pay attention, do you advise they just completely stop or they wean down?

Well, that's the thing is I want to look at your snips. I want to understand what makes you tick. I want to look at your hormone metabolites through something like Dutch or Meridian Valley. I like urine, dried urine testing or full urine, 24 hour urine. I want to look at how your body is utilizing this. Okay. That's very important because it's going to differ from person to person. I want to understand what your symptoms were that led you to get on those for how long? What was the duration, what was going on in your life? Was this pre keto? Was this pre whatever? So when I start to evaluate that, most of the time I find that women in their transition in perimenopause window, it's because we end up with too much cortisol, too much insulin, and not enough oxytocin. That's what Mindy talks about in her book. So all women are being trained to think that their sexuality, their sensuality, and their connection to another is based on their estrogen, their testosterone level levels. I will tell you right here and right now, that is not where it is.

Okay?

If you're. If someone's like, I have low libido, my first question is not what's your hormones? It's what's going on with you and your partner.

Oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense.

Most. Most of the time, that's where the hangup is.

Okay.

Are by nature connectors. Oxytocin is what makes us connect, what makes us orgasm, what makes us relax, what makes us take a dump, what makes us put babies out our bodies, what makes us have milk come out of our bodies. Like, it is important when you're under high cortisol. There is no oxytocin.

Okay. All right. Some of this is landing on me. Some of this I'm not, like, fully committed to, but it's landing. I'm listening.

If you do so. If you do. Because majority of my work with women were women coming in saying, I have cancer. I have to stop these things. Or women saying, my mom had cancer, or now I want to get off these things or whatever. So I had to help navigate that. So through the snp, through the testing of their hormones to see where they are on the medication, finding out a good history is important. And then we can do things like running a full thyroid panel. We can look at your T3 uptake, which is what I call poor man's hormone testing. If it's above 30, that shows me more androgen dominance, metabolic syndrome dominance. If it's below 30, that shows me more estrogen dominance. That's my cheap fix. If someone can't afford a couple hundred bucks for those other tests. Tests, then we start to play with, okay, what's really going on. What I found, personally, if I get people on low carb diets, so carbohydrate restriction, whether that's putting them into ketosis or not, if I help them get into stress mitigation and I help them increase their oxytocin levels, guess what? Hot flashes go away. Guess what, libido comes back. Guess what? Skin. I mean, look at how great you look after an orgasm, for crying out loud. I mean, that is like, you know, that that is that flush. The other thing is that what women are misunderstanding about their hot flashes is most of them are dealing with a histamine intolerance. And so I play with histamine reduction and elimination in the process of there being a transition. I also help women know that when you start to track when their hot flashes are at their worst, a lot of them will tell me they just got pissed off at work and they flared. Or I had coffee or alcohol or I had a fight with my spouse or a certain time of day. Those are clues to what's going on in our biochemistry. Usually around cortisol yet again, or blood sugar. So those are the pieces. Cortisol, blood sugar, histamine are the big drivers of that. So we start to work with that, the terrain, and then suddenly everything starts to fall back into place. So now we have juiciness and connection and stronger orgasm and better sleep and less heat trapped in the body. And suddenly folks are happy because. Because what happens when we move into perimenopause? We Hand that baton to our adrenals. Who do you know living on the planet today has normal functioning adrenals.

Yeah, exactly.

And so that's where we're treating the wrong. We're barking up the wrong tree. Supporting our adrenals, we need to be supporting our stress, we need to be supporting our metabolic health. And that will right the ship.

So good. Yeah, you got me thinking about a lot now, so I'll have to report back.

And I do. Like when I have women who say, I don't have cancer, I don't have a family history of cancer, I've done all my workups, I'm thinking I'm pretty good. I'm on this for a period of time, I remind women, then get on it and get off it. If it's a crutch, if it's a bridge, walk across to make the transition better. But I cannot even tell you what a horrible, sad thing it is for me to see people like 72 years old still on their hormones and now they're wondering why they're dying of uterine cancer.

I think that it's just so confusing. And I'll speak for myself. I've had so many guests on here. It's just so confusing, the different takes on it because we hear so many different things. Right.

You hear how many of those guests who talk about the best of hormone, that replacement therapy are experts in oncology?

None. You're right.

Right. So when. So there was a nurse practitioner in my community. I hope she listens to this later.

Sure.

Who? Literally, we had like a back and forth fight for about two decades. And she would literally say to my patients, I will stay on my HRT and I will prescribe HRT until I either have a heart attack back or get cancer. Sadly, door number two was opened. Wow. It changed her life. Now she gives my book to everybody. She talks about the story. She was the person who brought bioidentical hormones to my small town. Interesting. She had to unfortunately walk through that doorway herself. Now that she understands it from the other side and from another perspective, that's the difference. My colleagues were out there very happy and promotional about this. I want them to start to say, okay, there literally is enough evidence. And I'm telling this to protect my colleagues, There is enough evidence out there today. If the patient runs their epigenetics and they end up with cancer, thanks to your bioidentical hormone prescription, they can sue your ever loving life.

Wow.

Period. That's how much evidence there is. I get fired up on this Because I'm the one who's treating those people. I'm the one who's seen those people. I'm the one who's dealing with a devastation of I did everything right. Yes, we look at it and go, you did everything right. But let's look at your SNPs and let me show you you were destined to have cancer in this combination.

And that's not going to help with that. Okay. I can't promise I'm giving it all up, but I'm promising I'm going to listen and I'm going to take on and I'm not going to up the levels I'll tell you.

Promise me you'll just do a deeper dive in who you are and what you are and work with someone who can help. You start to tease out, like, what parts do I need? Can I do less of this? Can I work myself through it and make the transition to a point where I don't need to lean on that anymore? It's a perfect. I mean, talk about a learning opportunity of just like understanding your body at its best and where it brought you that much needed oxygen mask. Maybe you've got the resources now to do it more on your. Well, and I think it's kind of.

Like, I mean, I think back to being most people listening did this too in my 20s, from like the time I was 16 on being on synthetic birth control pills for 20 years, you know, thinking that was like, fine and going, oh my gosh. And now, you know, so glad I'm not now. But so it's. I think we just, we change things as we learn.

And that's just it. Like, you know, that's the thing. Like, I was a big person who was a big pusher of iodine. That was a really big part of my practice for years until I learned more. And after I literally poisoned multiple patients and realized I've overdone this, I had to learn. I'd go back to my patients, say I didn't know what I didn't know. But now that I know, I have to do something different. Here's the information, here's the data. Do with it what you will. My patients appreciated that in me. They would say, I love that you keep learning and changing with this. It's called the art or practice of medicine for a reason. It's not static. So when we learn new data to compel us, we shift with that data. And so the same thing, like selenium. I was like, in my book, I even talk about take your Brazil nuts. I learned that that's actually one of the most toxic ways to get in your selenium. It is in cancering patients. The form that we used to recommend called selenomethionine is actually something we probably should avoid as well. So if we have a patient needing.

Selenium, the Brazilian nuts go away now. Okay. I know this. I bought them after your book. Right, right.

And same here. It's like, that's the one thing I'm like, ah, okay. But we can still have. Yeah, there you go. Exactly. Go back to those things. And then the other thing, like, if you have true, like low T3, elevated thyroid antibodies, true low selenium on your blood testing, then there's safe forms, like from a form called sodium selenite. And even sodium of selenite is even at a prescription dose in treatments of many cancers. It's really good for TP53 gene mutations, et cetera. So there's a time and a place, but you just have to vary it. So it's like we had some of the information, but not all of it. Yes. Here. That we're probably in a similar boat with. With hrt, you know, biohrt, because we all learned that about conventional hrt and we're like, throw that out. But we're like, it's like going BPA free in your plastic. Right. That's the shift we made. So it's going to come to this time. And when you look at the documentation that we're collecting in our database, because we're collecting out, we've got a database we're building out that's collecting all these data points. It's really easy for us to see. Like, this isn't information I'm making up. I'm just reading to you the patterns, the data that's coming into me. I'm looking at the information and I'm looking at how we can change the expression of things along the way. So we learn in real time together. We move in this stream together. And I suspect, Natalie, that your reaction response to the hormones is probably in some ways safer than others because you are doing all the other things.

You are me questioning. Just listening to you. I have me question. Like, all the things that came up with my blood sugar, all those things came up after starting hormones. So now I'm questioning. So I really am listening to you. I do have a couple. I could talk to you for hours, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna start winding it down because I have so many questions for you, but I Want to ask. There's something I had really important, important I wanted to ask you about. So to make sure I get that in. You in the book talked about mammograms and your take on that. And obviously we get pushed to do a mammogram by conventional doctors continually. Can you share about that in your own words about mammograms?

First, I'm kind of laughing. I feel like there's so many rotten tomatoes being thrown at me from this no. I controversial piece.

We need to hear the other.

This is the problem.

We can't just learn one side and not. I think everyone needs to be their own health advocate. You have to hear the information and learn both things and then you make it better. Best decision for you. That's what I think.

I love it. So it's interesting when you think about this. So other parts of the world are less enamored with mammograms as we are here in the United States. One of my woman I know from our field, her name is Susan Wadia Ells. I don't know if you've ever had her on. She wrote a book called Busting Breast Cancer and she has a whole section around sort of the controversy around mammograms. There's actually multiple big, big, big studies on the implications of mammograms, either one being ineffective or two, actually having some potential to cause cancer. So let's just. Without even going into those, let's just talk about the reality. Let's talk about the data. Right. 70% of women have either augmented breasts, meaning that they maybe have had it poked with for a biopsy or a lumpectomy or maybe breast reduction or implants.

Or toxic implants like me. So that's another thing I got working on.

There you go. But like all the things like, so there's like, there's like they've been messed with in some way. Way. So there's that. Then there's the group of women who have small breast tissue, and then there's the group of women that have dense breast tissue. Basically, that's 70% of all boobs on the planet should not be mammogrammed.

Okay?

What happens is mammograms then do one of two things. They either completely miss it, so they misdiagnose or they miss the diagnosis. Okay? So they either say, oh, you have cancer because something looks suspicious here, when it's just other things going on and it scares you the crap and causes all kinds of trauma, or they miss it altogether, which happens A lot. And especially the younger you are here. So here's the caveat. This is literally off the Mayo website, because I just had this conversation this morning. You ready for this?

Okay.

Youth. So premenopausal, dense breast. So already knowing your boobs are a little bit denser and less floppy. Right. Being on hormone replacement therapy.

Wow.

Changes your breast density.

Okay.

Okay. And of course, the augmented breasts, those are patients that are already considered. Even Mayo says these folks, they still, of course, push the mammogram, but they're like. But you should also get an ultrasound and really have a good examination. So what's really cool is we've got two technologies that are available to us today that do not cause any smashing of the tissue, which you do not want to snap. This is very vulnerable tissue. It's lymphatic with vasculature. You know, it's. It's glands. There's so much happening here. Do you really want to smash that and then radiate that does that.

It sounds like you're adding a problem to it.

That's definitely. And that's where I get concerned. And so there are technologies now available to us that are sadly not yet covered by insurance.

But like thermography, like that.

Well, thermography is actually pretty limited because it's not sensitive and specific enough. It's another additional tool, and it's very interesting, and it shows you thermal changes in areas of inflammation and blood pooling. Very powerful tool. But you cannot lean on it because it does not give you something measurable, quantifiable, to follow or to repeat. But there is a particular ultrasound device called Sonocena S O N O C I, N E, which is a high sensitivity, high specificity ultrasound. They've got those around the country, unfortunately. There's a few places that do it, but then they say you have to have a mammogram and do this. I'm like, I go to the ones that do not require you to have a mammogram. Okay.

Okay.

If you happen to fall in those categories we just talked about. Yes. If you got the floppy boobs and you're big, like. And if you feel like you want.

To just do your thing.

Yeah, but. And then the other one is a new updated version of a. Of a MRI without the contrast dye.

So it doesn't have a breast MRI that people do. Okay.

No, because the breast mri, which is the gold standard and standard abuse. If you already have a breast cancer diagnosis, please don't ever go back to using a mammogram. Ever again. You are now only to use ultrasound pre nouveau, which is this non contrast dye MRI or a standard breast mri. Because at that point you do not want to keep smashing, you do not want to keep throwing sticks at sleeping tigers, right with a Macron. So the Pre Nouveau is Dr. Arugala out of Vancouver BC. He is a radiation oncologist who's also a chemical engineer, Ph.D. in chemical engineering. He realized he could build a better MRI. He was on Dr. Peter Attia's podcast in July 2019. I happened to hear it to the point of sent thousands of patients his way ever since. And now he's got these centers opening up all over the United States, all over North America, soon to be in the uk. What it's doing is it's taking an even more sensitive and specific picture than the typical MRI without the contrast dye. And it's even in a back to back comparison with PET scans without that contrast dye as well as the radiation. So this is where medicine is going that you do not have to smash any radiate and put contrast dye into your body to get good imaging. So that's where we're headed. And I get really excited. There's a really good book called More Than Meets the MRI which talks about the dangers of contrast dye. I personally am a gadolinium poisoned person on this planet. My personal history of MRIs that I was using at that time, I can't use those in this. And then another thing is a lot of people are worried about BRCA genes. The BRCA 1 or 2. This type of genetic predispositions to cancers are actually very highly sensitive, highly vulnerable to radiation. These cancers are about poor DNA repair of our healthy cells. Radiation is the biggest way to damage your DNA. We're pushing these women to go and have twice a year mammograms. I will have job security because of that recommendation. Ducts. So it's like those patients, my brca, ATM lynch, gata, three mlh, one msh, two patients. Any check, two patients. I am saying don't do the mammals, please do the sonosinas and the prenup.

And I canceled mine after I read that in your book. So I was like, okay, I get it.

To look right without causing harm. And the bummer is it's someday we're building this nonprofit. Someday we'll be able to have grants to help women who do not have the means to pay for those technologies. And hopefully the demand will be at a point where those costs get driven down so we can all afford to do those instead of harmful imaging opportunities. Yeah.

You are so knowledgeable. I love interview. I could literally talk to you for hours. I'm going to tell. We barely scratched the surface on what she teaches everyone. You have to go get her book, the Metabolic Approach to Cancer. Literally, we didn't even talk about so much that's in the book about nutrition and, and just what's in our environment. And like, she gives really easy, simple things that we can add into our lives that we could change. Like, it's not about an all or nothing. I mean, when I read it, I was. I remember the first time I was reading it, I'm on the airplane with my husband. I'm tapping him every two seconds. Like, look, we gotta do this.

Look at.

It's like, stop.

Like, I hate her.

But. But really, I started just applying. I'm not perfect at it, but I started applying little things and I've seen a lot of changes from that. So I highly recommend her book. Thank you so much for today. Thank you so much for sharing with my audience here and everyone, please, where can people find you? Where do you want them to follow you?

I love. Well, Natalie, thank you so much for this opportunity. I really appreciate all that you're doing. For folks in the world, this is great. But come look. For me, probably the easiest place that's going to have everything is mtih.org which stands for metabolicterraininstituteofhealth.org and that will also link you back into drnaysha.com and it'll talk about the books I've written and the millions of podcasts. Many different things. You can come in free materials to go in, lots of rabbit holes, but definitely follow us there. And Natalie, thanks again for this incredible opportunity.

Thank you so much.