Unclutter Your Chaos - ADHD with Kerry Thomas

Hi, I'm Natalie Jill, fat loss expert turned lifestyle and high performance coach. Welcome to Listen up the podcast. On this podcast, I do what I do best. Taking complicated information that is relevant to us now and breaking it down simply with actionable steps you can implement to level up your life. I also regularly interview some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on the planet who at their worst, learned how to achieve success greater than anything they ever dreamed possible. Creating everything from nothing. If you are new here, I encourage you to go back and listen from episode one when this podcast was previously called Leveling up for the Full Transformative Experience. Today on Listen Up, I've got my new friend, Kerry Thomas. Thanks for being here, Kerry.

Thank you so much for having me. This is exciting.

I'm so excited to dive into this topic today because as a massive ADHD entrepreneur, that's been my thing forever. I've had to really learn the world of decluttering and organizing. It does not come natural to me. And when I learned about you and what you do, how you help people with all types of clutter, not just physical clutter, but mental clutter, all the things. And you specialize in helping people with adhd, I thought, I've got to have her on and learn her tips and see how she even got into this. So thank you for doing that.

Oh, you're welcome.

So take us back. Were you always an organized person? Let's start with that.

I was actually, I was just talking to my mom the other day. I'm actually at her house now visiting, and I was saying, do you remember when I was young and I took the dining room, the new china cabinet and made it a library. And so I've always been organized and wanting to systemize things and my background is in education and even when I taught, I loved teaching, but I really loved organizing my classroom and having color coordinated folders and all those fun things. So yes, that's interesting because, you know.

When I look at. First of all, what grade did you teach when you taught? What was the age?

I taught middle school. I taught special education. So I had sixth, seventh and eighth, but it was always middle school.

So what I've always noticed about classrooms, and I'm generalizing here because I just have my own experience with my classroom or my daughter's classrooms. But to me they never, they always look like a big clutter mess like classrooms to me. And I always struggled with that as a kid, that I couldn't see millions of things around. It would confuse me, it would distract me Right.

That's huge. And because I taught. I taught students with learning disabilities. And so part of what I learned in school and getting my degrees was, you know, about different types of learning styles and about neurodiversity. And so I was very careful setting up my classroom, and those skills and knowledge has carried over to what I do now.

Okay, so why did you not go originally into organizing? Why were you originally in the teaching path? Tell me about that and how you switched.

Well, originally, I was going to be an ophthalmologist, and then I had to take chemistry twice and calculus twice. And I thought, I can't do this forever. And so I was really drawn to special education and to working with disabled students. And then I never truly worked with physically disabled students. That was never the path I took. But to be honest with you, I didn't know that organizing or productivity consulting or any of those things. I didn't realize that could be a career path. I had a friend who had become an organizer, and I remember the exact moment. It was like, oh, wait a minute, that's a job. And so I went from there.

What was the drive to work with special ed kids? I'm like, I want to. I'm trying to, in my mind, tie this all together, too. So what was the draw to that? What made you want to do that?

Well, I've always been the type of person who just wanted to help, to be honest with you. I mean, that might be cliche, but I just. I had done some volunteering in high school, Special Olympics, that type of thing, and it was just always very rewarding to me. And I love teaching. Even now. One of my favorite parts of what I do in my business and in my career is speaking and teaching and leading workshops. And so I've always had that knack. I've always liked that. And it just brought the two things together.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. So when you mentioned that, like, you specialize basically in this ADHD brain and these. Tell me more about that. Like, what happens with that personality style where you come in and it's so helpful.

Okay. Well, first of all, I work a lot with business owners, entrepreneurs. There have been studies, they say anywhere from 80 to 85% of entrepreneurs have ADD, and that's what leads us to start our own businesses. And people don't want to be put in a box. And so there are so many people out there that fall into that category. And. And when I started my business, I. I was more of a true, like you think of organizer. I did a Little of everything and did residential and. But I quickly figured out that I liked the business side of things. And then I'm really good at paper. I have clients that call me paper ninja. I have this very strange talent of being able to sort a lot of paper really fast and. But what I saw when I went back and got certified to in business systems and to work with in offices was that there were so many people that had such a failure mentality and they thought they couldn't get organized. They had tried everything. It was just a lost cause. And what I realized in working with my first few clients in that realm was, well, these grown up clients are struggling with the same issues that my middle schoolers had. And it's not that they can't be organized, they are just trying to be organized based on someone else's system.

That's so. Oh my gosh, wait, light bulb moment right there. I'm just thinking like that's what goes on in my, my daughter's super adhd and that's. You just verbalize what I think is happening. Like all these adults trying to organize her in their system that doesn't work.

In her brain right now. So one of the very first things, well, I have a productivity quiz that assesses just a quick assessment that's actually on my website. We can talk about that later. But besides that, one of the first things I do with my clients is I have them do a learning styles assessment. So we look at, are they a visual learner, are they an auditory learner, kinesthetic learner, that type of thing. And so there are definite ways that you should set up your work environment or school environment based on your learning. And sometimes those small tweaks combined with, you know, the systems that I introduce are all that's needed to make a huge difference. So that's where I start.

That's so wild too. Like what's coming up for me right now too is like I think about how I like paper too. I like the old fashioned, like write in a journal, like print things out. And my husband's always asking like why you have like all these Macs, like just keep it organized on folders. But I, my brain doesn't work well with all these random folders on a Mac or email. Like I like actually printing and having things where I can visually see.

I'm showing her hers my now right now. Showing her mine right now. Yes, I completely understand that. I do my calendar digital. But besides that, like my TO dos are paper.

Me too.

My brainstorming is Paper. If I sit at a conference, I'm writing everything down on paper even if I already know it and then I go back and deal with it later. So I get it. I am a page, pen and paper girl. Yeah.

Now does that go with one of the styles? Like would you say that's more of a visual person or is that visual?

Yes.

Okay. I also tend to like colors a lot. Like I learned better color sticky notes, different color pens. Like all that too.

Color coding is very key for visual learners.

Okay. So I must be a visual. Okay, got it.

You color code, do you use a digital calendar or paper calendar?

I use a digital calendar, but it's color coded.

So that's what I was going to.

Yeah. And I have. And I have folders and topics for it. So I'll have like personal is one, business is another. But it took me years to be able to manage that. Like I'm very good about my schedule and I think organization now in my own world. But it took me, I mean, I'm 49 years old. It took me years to figure that out because other people would put their system on me and I couldn't just fall into their system.

Right. I take it a step further. It's funny you asked me before we started if I myself was add, and I've never been diagnosed as that. But I do do things differently than the average person. And one of the things I do is in my calendar, my digital calendar, I don't put appointments according to the time blocks. Like I don't block out like from 2 to 4. I make all of my tasks and appointments for the day in a list form and it'll say two to four. So I know. But for some reason when I put them in the blocks and I have to scroll up and down and look at that, that doesn't work for me. Wow.

Ok. Yeah, I should try that. I found that I have to put like if I have an appointment from 2 to 4, I have to block it out 1:30 to 4:30 because I otherwise I won't account for drive time, I won't account for thinking, I won't account for planning. So I've learned these little tricks there.

There's someone and I feel so terrible that I can't think of their name right now. But there's someone in the productivity world that calls that triple scheduling.

Okay.

Where you have the time before you have your actual appointment and then you have the time after. I tell my clients, leave white space or leave margins in your day so that you can because for me, if I get off of a call and I don't write the notes or make the next appointment in my calendar or if I immediately have to go on with my day, things get lost.

Yes. Which I'm guilty of right now. Before this podcast, I had a meeting. Right. That I squeezed in right before. So I live this guilt. Okay, so you. So you find you're working mostly with entrepreneurs and business owners. And because just statistically, you say that most of them happen to be this. What do you find most working with them? Like, what's the first thing you go on and you see? Is there certain things that you see general with most entrepreneurs that's going on?

Well, they, as I, as I mentioned, they get frustrated because they've tried someone else's system. So then they just abandon everything and they say, well, file folders didn't work for me, so I can't. I'm just going to leave them in random piles. And so I will go in and say, well, have you thought about binders? Have you thought about using wall pockets attached to the wall? Have you thought about using clear envelopes, all these other options? Just because you hate file folders doesn't mean that you.

I'm literally laughing because I have probably. I'm looking at, like, ten piles right now. Like, my pile of stuff. I just put it all in a pile. Like, it's going to all of a sudden get done.

I mean, I'm a piler, too. I truly, truly am. But the difference is I can recover quickly. I have a place to put it if and when I need to. I've set that up.

Okay. I'd love to dive into a few, like, kind of steps for people that are. That are listening. And there's some people listening rolling their eyes at me right now. And there's some people listening, going, oh, my gosh, that's me. I'm a piler. I don't have a system, all that. So I would love to dive into that topic. Like, if you're the person resonating with this and you're like, I'm an unorganized mess. Aside from working with Carrie, which is an option, what are some tips that they could start with right now?

So one thing, I mean, we've been talking a lot about paper and piles, so I'm going to stay in that vein for a moment. So one thing, and I always teach this is. So let's say you have a lot of paper and you've shoved things in closets, and you have boxes everywhere and you're sitting, you say, okay, I am finally going to make sense of this. And so you gather it all together. There are three quick decisions to do. A quick sort that you can make about any piece of paper. And that is do I need to file it, act on it, or toss. And it's kind of funny because the acronym is fat, which in your world, hysterical.

Love it.

So it's file actor toss. And so as you're sorting, the goal is to only touch each piece of paper once, obviously, and to make a decision about it. And so file. When I talk about files, it doesn't have to be a file folder, as I just said, but there are two types. And so you can further sort into reference and action. And so that's how you want to organize. So whether you have file cabinets, whether you have binders, whatever your system is, you need a place for your reference files, which are those things that you want to save but you don't really need to look at, like insurance papers and medical records and things like that.

Like lab tests from your doctor.

I think of in the typical file category. Yes. So that's reference. Action files are. You can also call them project files. They could be client files. They could be anything you're working on now. So it could be a retirement party you're planning, you know, a big workshop you have coming up, and you've got all the papers about it. So, so some people do keep those, like in a binder or even on a clipboard or something like that. So that's action files. So files are the things you need to save but you don't have to do something with right now. Okay, that's file. The second group as you sort is act. And those are your TO dos. So those are bills you have to pay, calls you have to make, you know, a paper that you have to give to someone else, any of your action items or your TO dos, and then toss of the file. Act toss is my favorite. So that's trash, shred, recycle, you know, the stuff you can get rid of. And if you go through your office, whether it's every day or, you know, you just do it once a week or whatever. But if you go through and sort all your paper with that in mind, you will eliminate, you know, 90% of it in no time at all. Eliminate or put in a proper place.

So now for people like me who have all these piles sitting around that they, they look pretty because they just get them out of the way and they're organized, but who knows what's even in those piles. Do you suggest that they tackle it all at once in a day? Do they take like an hour? Like, what? Did you have a suggestion around that?

A lot of that is going to be personal. You know, your personality, your schedule, as far as the sort. Most people, once they get going, they gain a lot of momentum. I mean, the key, ultimately, is to do it on a daily basis. So you have no new piles. That's always the goal, right? No new piles. There's a saying, today's mail is tomorrow's pile. So what that means is, like, everything's gonna keep spinning. And so the goal is to set up places. Like, everything has a home. And whether that is in a file cabinet, whether that's in a binder, whatever that is, you want everything to have a home. The other thing that's super, super important, and this is true in your office or even in your kitchen, wherever your mail comes in, is to have a place that's basically an inbox. And it doesn't have to be a box. It could be a tray, a basket. It could be a designated corner of your desk or your counter. But you really, really want to have a place for mail or papers that haven't been processed yet.

Okay?

And that word is key. Processed people say, oh, I'm going to go look at the mail. No, try to avoid doing that, because what happens when we look at the mail is we pick it up, we put it down, we shuffle it. We don't do anything. Right. We just make more piles. So if you do it intentionally, that word is huge in my world. All my clients, you know, they say they're gonna put it on my tombstone.

I like that. Basically, like, get your mail, put it in that one pile she's approving of until you're ready to be intentional with it.

And then when you're intentional, go through it and say, is this file act or toss?

Okay, I can try to commit to this. I'm saying try because I'm not fully convinced that I should do this yet. But I get.

And the good thing is, if you leave it there until you're ready to process it, it takes some of the pressure off. Because if you have to find something and say, oh, did that paper come in? You know, it's in that pile. Yeah, right. And then once you sort it, you have a place to put your things to be filed, because we're not going to go file right then. And so that also takes that stress away because, you know, okay, well, it's in this basket. I haven't filed yet, but I know it's in this basket.

Okay?

So having even the simplest system can take away a lot of that is great for paperwork.

This is. That's a great, great tip. Okay, I have my next question, and then I want to ask about brain clutter, too, so I'm going to get to that. But. Okay. My biggest, most cluttered place in my whole house is my kitchen. Okay? And I think everybody has the messy drawer in their kitchen. Like this drawer that we dump everything in that my husband's always arguing with about. He's like, why are there birthday candles, scrunchies, maxi pads, all kinds of stuff in this drawer? What is this? Can't we just keep pens? Okay, so I want to talk about the messy drawer. And then also, what is it about kitchens? Like, I can say my drawers. It doesn't matter how many times I feel like they're organized, they're just always a mess. I can never find spatulas or anything.

Well, the kitchen is the hub of the house, no matter what. And so that's problem number one is that everybody's in and out, and that's where we do almost all of our living. I mean, even if you have a nice party, where does everyone end up? The kitchen.

Yeah.

And so to answer your first question, though, I think we need a junk drawer. I think that's.

And I'm gonna tell them you said that.

And. And some junk drawers are going to be different than others. I mean, I have friends who don't really have a junk drawer. Their junk drawer is beautifully organized. You know, even the extra stuff has its own little place where that's what he wants.

He's trying to control me because he's from the military and he doesn't have add, so. He does.

Yeah. You know, it's so funny because I speak a lot, and one time I was speaking at a church, and it was older in a lot of older couples. And the question and answer period turned into marriage counseling. They were all pointing at each other and, what do I do about him or her? What do I do? And so that's just one of those things. You know how sometimes in parenting you hear, you know, choose your battles, close the door to their room, you know, worry about it later. It very often in couples, that helps also. Like, sometimes it's reversed. Women are saying, well, he's such a slob. And so giving people their one spot where you can be yourself, like, whether that's. Whether that's a junk drawer, whether that's One closet that you just agree ahead of time, this is the space that you are not going to.

I'm totally going to clip this part of this interview, and I'm going to give it to him and I make him listen to it. So I'm going to keep my junk drawer. So. But you're saying the kitchen itself gets messy just because that's like the most traffic. Like, that's where you're hanging out the most. Do you have any tips there on how to keep that organized?

Yes. Well, think of it like a store. You know how in a store you go in and first of all, things are in zones. They're grouped together. Like things are with, like, you know, all the soup is with the soup. So. And then the other thing with stores are all the commonly used items are at eye level. Well, sometimes they put the most expensive things at eye level to get you to buy them. But in your kitchen, you want to think of it in the same way. So if you have a fancy punch bowl that you use once a year, that should not take up prime real estate, that should be on a very, very high shelf or in an overflow closet or something like that. Think of your kitchen like a store. Think of it in zones. Think of putting things and make things easy for people in your family. So if people are listening and they have young children. I have one client who just put all the water bottles and all the plastic cups in a big wicker basket and put that in one of the low cabinets. And she just decided she didn't care if it was messy. They would throw them in, pull them out. That was where they got anything to drink from. So just make it easy.

Okay.

And for storage, think vertically. You might need to build an extra shelf, you know, on top of the shelves you already have in your pantry. But think vertically and then store all those rarely used items up high.

Okay. One more question about stuff before we get into mine, because I just asked about clothes, because that also happens a lot where we're keeping things. Like, everybody, in my experience, Everybody wears like 10% of their stuff all the time.

Yep.

And then everything else is like, saving for something. Thoughts on that and ways to get rid of that. Like, I go through this myself with, like, I've got shoes I haven't touched in probably 10 years, but I keep thinking I'm going to wear them one day.

So.

And I don't know what to do with them. Do you have any tips there?

Well, there are a lot of tried and trued, tried and true tips for that. So one of them, you might have heard, you know, people suggest turning your hangers around.

No, I didn't hear this. What do you do?

So you put all your hangers backwards.

Okay.

When you wear something, you put it back normally and then you set a deadline for yourself, whatever it is, six months, a year. And if you haven't worn it, if the hanger still backwards, then it goes.

Oh, that's a good one.

That's a big thing about decisions is. Well, there's the saying. My mentor actually trademarked it. Barbara Hemphill, she trademarked clutter is postponed decisions.

Oh, so good.

And it's huge. It's. I mean, I talk about clutter a lot and I say, you know, it's anything that's clogging your life and anything that's keeping you from living the life you want to lead. But her definition is still and will always be the best definition. Because every case of clutter comes from not making a decision. So your clothes, you're not making the decision. Like some people have different, all different sizes in their closet. So the decision there is, am I really going to put forth the effort to be this size again? Is it worth it to me making that decision or am I going to donate this? Am I going to give it to my sister, whatever it is? So that's one is turning the hangers around. Some people suggest if you're not quite ready to get rid of it, you can box it up or put it in a bin and then same thing. Give yourself a deadline. When am I going to look at this again? And by not seeing it every day, even in your subconscious, when you go to look in that bin again, you'd be surprised. You're like, oh, yeah, none of this is that great.

So, Carrie, that really, that really resonated with me, what you said, your mentor trademark the clutter postpone is postponed decisions. Because I think of myself as decisive person. So then I'm like, well then, but why then do I have shoes from 10 years ago that are 6 inch heels that I'm never going to wear again? Like, what it, what is that? What can you expect? What can people expect comes better in their life? When you do take this on and say, I'm going to tackle at least the physical clutter to start. Like, what can people expect? What's the result of that?

Well, anytime you declutter, it changes the energy in your home. I mean, just clearing out. Especially if you get things off the floor and out of the corners. I don't know how Much your listeners know about just the flow of energy. But clearing that out just allows you to breathe. It allows your brain to relax. We are wired, you know, just genetically from our ancestors to try to stay safe. We're always looking for, you know, danger, danger like, you know, threats. And most of our thoughts during the day are subconscious. And believe it or not, what happens every time we walk into a room, even if it's on our own home, our subconscious is scanning the room for danger and for threats. And so the more piles and the more things you have, even if you're not consciously thinking about them, your subconscious is still registering them every single time. And so by decluttering and by having things calm and peaceful, it just eliminates a lot of that stress. You don't even realize you have.

No, you're right. As I'm talking to you, I'm sitting here, I'm like, okay, I've got my crystals on my desk. I've got my smell good candle. I've got my. It looks. But then I've got piles. So I'm like, what would that do if I were to change that? And like, that just. That motivates me that if I'm going to clear and create something, space for better energy, then that's. That sounds motivating to me. Talk to me about, okay, I want to talk about the different type of clutter because I could go through room from room and go, what do you do about the garage? And what do we do? But it sounds like I'm starting to get there's sort of a system like deal with things once put everything has a place, make decisions. I'm getting seeing a theme there. Talk to me about the mind clutter, because it seems like that's a big part of what you do as well.

It is. And I always tell my clients or when I'm speaking that it's very. It's a circle. It's like a chicken and an egg, like, which came first. So some people have a lot of physical clutter because they have a lot of mental and emotional issues going on. Some people feel stress and anxiety because they have a lot of physical clutter. Like it doesn't matter. You don't have to pinpoint what started what. The good news is changing in any area is going to impact the other.

So if somebody's highly stressed and anxious, would you be willing to bet that there's clutter in their life? Do those go together like that?

They usually do. Yes, they usually do. And it might even be hidden. It might Be digital clutter. Maybe they have 75,000 unread emails.

Yeah, I have that too. I do, I do. Don't email me. I will not get it. I want every the world to know that. Yeah, voicemail too. I don't, I don't think I've listened to a voicemail in probably two years. So yeah, there's that. Maybe that's the explanation for stress and anxiety in my life.

Yeah. So I truly believe they almost always are connected. Now there are different types. I mean, I call it all internal clutter because sometimes the definitions overlap. But basically mental clutter is anything that's coming from your environment. So it could be the news. I mean, that's huge nowadays, right? So it could be the news. It could be just negative voices at work, or it could even be your to do list. Basically, mental clutter are the things that are keeping you up at 3, 4 in the morning. That's the mental clutter. It's those like just outside you're being bombarded. Emotional clutter I define as more internal. So you have. And maybe it started as mental clutter, but you've really internalized it. So now it's negative thought patterns that have become ingrained. It's, you know, the I can't voices, like I can't do this, I can't do. It's just all of that just negativity that's inside of us. Then there's even spiritual clutter. I talk a little bit about. One form of spiritual clutter is lack of forgiveness, holding on to anger and all those type of things. So anything that is causing you stress, basically, like I said a moment ago, just keeping you from living the life that you want. I view that all as clutter. But the good news is you can clean it out just like you do the physical.

And how do you suggest you clean? Like when I, when I work with clients on that part too, but I didn't, I wasn't calling it clutter. And I feel strong about teaching people to have presence in their life. So whether that's meditation or just putting that phone away, just practicing acts of presence because. But that might be one of those methods that like you just said, sometimes when we take our methods and give it to somebody else, it doesn't always translate. So to me, that's what works for me is to go back to hyper presence, meditation, breathwork, things like that. What do you advise for people?

Right. Well, you're absolutely right. And that's why like in my group program we go through and I teach Everything, because I give them a toolkit. And then I say that, like, you pick. You pick the ones that work for me. But I do want to say one thing first before I give examples and that so we all can grab, like, wrap our mind around getting rid of physical clutter. Yes. I need to throw this away. I need to take a bag to Goodwill. But people think with their emotional clutter. Just being aware of it is enough. Oh, yes, I recognize that. I have these thought patterns, so they should go away now, but they don't go away on their own. Just like the physical clutter won't take itself to Salvation Army. So I do a lot of those same things. I do teach meditation. I teach, you know, whether it's getting out in nature. Grounding, journaling is a huge one that can help with those types of clutter. I teach all of those types of things, basically, you know, like you said, anything that brings you back into the moment.

Yes. Nature is a big one for me, too. I. The one thing on my calendar that does not move every day is I always find time to walk just outside, because to me, just being around trees and nature always brings me back to my greater purpose all the time.

And sometimes it is talking, whether it's a friend or professional. I mean, sometimes it is therapy, things like that. But you. The point being, you have to do something. You can't just be aware of it.

Okay, that's great.

That's.

Yeah, because. Right. A lot of people learn this, hear this. They go, okay, I'm aware. But it doesn't change it. So when you work with clients, are you. You don't let them get away. I'm assuming with just the one aspect. You want to look at this whole picture. Like, do we have mental clutter and do we have physical clutter? Because it sounds like they go together in a lot of cases.

Right. For the most part. I do have some business clients that are very cut and dry. Like, okay, we need you to come in and look at our systems and look at the filing. And, you know, we're not talking about any internal stuff in those cases. So I do still have those clients. But most people are drawn to me because they want to look at the whole picture. And so we start. I always start with the physical because I think it's easier to make a change there. I mean, like I mentioned, easy to take a bag, or it's easy to, you know, shred 14 boxes of paper or whatever it is. But I teach them side by side. Like, someone asked me that once. Well, which do you teach first? And I, like I said, I do start a little bit more with the physical, but then bring in and teach side, side by side.

You know, it's interesting as you're saying that because I'm thinking about what I do for a living and it's the same thing where not the physical environment clutter, but people come to me for body and I know that there's what's going on in their brain that's showing up on their body and same with the other way around. So if they want help with the brain side, like they're growing. If I help business clients with growing their social strategy or their story, we've got to get their body healthy too. So they do go together there. So I do get what you're saying, that it's not typically things are not a solo thing. There's other parts of it. So I have a question for the parents listening because selfishly I'm asking for me. So parents listening too, because I have a 13 year old who is literally off the charts ADHD, surprise, surprise. She came from me and my ex husband. We're both got that. So she's that. But she's got something different than me where she is like her, I can't even walk in her room. It's a constant fight of like organize, clean your room. Like she'll have 10 glasses in there. Like it's a constant thing. And I know that she, it holds her back in other areas of her life because of all that. What advice do you give parents? Because you just said earlier, like when we give somebody else our system that doesn't always work. And, and I can tell you that my daughter has four parents and we're all trying to give her our systems and that's not working. So do you have any advice there? Like what do you do in that case? I know some parents listening are gonna thank me for that question.

Have you asked her like what makes you feel comfortable in your room? What makes you. And what does she say?

The clutter, the mess. Like literally her entire closet will be on the floor. And she says that she likes that. And I'm like, I don't understand. Then you can't find anything.

So what are the pain points that she has around that I would say that's the thing. So you have to start with what bothers them and get them to buy in. So maybe it is like, oh, I can never find my makeup or I, you know, I don't have room for my friends to sit in here like Even if she says she likes it, I guarantee there's some pain points somewhere.

So what do we do? If that makes sense to me, like, if you know the pain point, you can start with that. But what if they're. The kids are saying, like, just leave me alone. I want my room like this. Or, this is how I think. Or this is how. Any advice for us as parents? I'm asking you to be a therapist now, too, I realize, but I'm, like, thinking like, us. It doesn't work for. For us to say, like, clean your room, or. I do this all the time. I say, you're not going. We're not going here unless this is organized or. But that doesn't fix the problem.

So let me ask you one quick question. So how is she in the rest of the house? Like, will she put her things.

Oh, no. You can see exactly where she's been.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I would suggest starting with that and saying, you know, we understand that this is how your brain works and that you're comfortable in your space like this. Think of, like, the messy professor. You know, I always picture, like, the guy with, like, you know, all the books piled up and, you know, all, like. I don't know. I have too many throw blankets in my house. Somebody might think they're clutter, but, you know, they're comfy to me. So that's.

Those are essential. I have that, too. Those are essential.

Yes. So that's, like, her comfort zone. So I would start with that. I would start with the rest of the house, and I would say, we understand. And so, I mean, you asked me to be a therapist so, so many times. Just being heard and having that part of her validated will make her more agreeable to going along with what comes next. So just say, you know, we understand. This is how you like your room, but we all have to live in the house. And, you know, just like, I might like doing xyz, but I don't because it makes everybody uncomfortable. We are asking you to close the cabinets after you get something out of them or whatever it is. So I would start there and start having her realize, you know, almost the trail she's leaving behind, as you said. But don't start with too many things. You know, just general habit, you know, this is a plug. I don't. It's the book I wish I wrote, but. James Clear Atomic Habits. It's amazing.

Oh, yeah, I've read that. It's a great.

Yeah. You know, I just. I plug that book everywhere I go, but so just general habit formation. You know, have her start small.

So based on what you said about the messy drawer in the kitchen and letting people have their own thing, do you think parents are going to be mad at your answer here? Maybe. But do you think it's important? Should we let teens have their messy space in their room? Is that an important thing for them?

I think we. I do, and I'll tell you why I do. I think it's important to teach them the importance of responsibility and being clean and neat. But that's why I suggested starting in the common living areas. But I think teens don't have that many areas where they can exert their budding independence. And, you know, we tell them, don't do this on your phone. Don't go with these friends, don't. And I think you have to pick your battles. There's a book I read once. I'm not gonna remember the title, but he talked about, you know, discuss as parents, what's the most important thing? What are the. This is the phrase he used. What are the non negotiables? So maybe the non negotiables in your family are some type of worship or eating dinner as. Eating dinner all together as a family, or, you know, cleaning up the kitchen or whatever it is, Walking the dog. So what are the non negotiables in your family? And then as much as possible, let them have autonomy in the other areas.

Okay, I will try.

Not if you're non negotiable. Someone listening is. Everyone's room will be perfectly clean. Like, if that's your non negotiable, then you need to find some other area.

Like, they get to do what they want on their phone or something.

They listen to, like, screamo music or whatever it is. So. So I understand people listening might be like, nope, my non negotiable is a clean room. But then find something.

Okay, that makes. It makes logical sense to me. I don't know if I'm ready to implement, but it makes logical sense to me. I hear you. I hear you. I just know we found, like, pizza that's a year old at points and stuff, so.

Oh, I know it's disgusting. I raised two boys. Well, one's 25 today. They're 25 and 21. And now they. They. They were disgusting, but now they.

Now they're in the military and they're in line.

No, but I mean, now they, you know, do their laundry and their houses are cle. When I go visit and, you know, Great.

All right. Gosh. Well, this was super helpful. Tell us about where people can find you. And I know you have a book, don't you? Do you have a book coming out?

I have one coming out, yes.

So can people pre order that?

Not quite yet, but as soon as they can, it will be. I will put it out everywhere so they can find me and get on my mailing list and things at my website. And that is CTC stands for conquer the chaos. So ctco organizing.com. okay, and that has everything. That has a link to my TED Talk. That has the quiz you can take to see how productive you are. That has, you know, at the bottom, it has all my social media links. I have a business Facebook page, honestly, where I am the most active and go live and share the most me is in my Facebook group that's called Less clutter, more Peace.

Less clutter, more peace. Okay.

So if you search for that, that's. That's really the best way to interact with me.

I love it. This was so helpful today. Thank you so much, Carrie.

You are so welcome.

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