What to Say When You Don't Know What to Say with Sam Horn

Today on Midlife Conversations, I've got my friend Sam Horn, and I had to have her on because Sam's way of communication and expressing herself and the way she speaks of others is one of those things that has completely stood out to me. We are in a mastermind together in a mastermind group. And I've watched Sam, how she introduces people, how she interacts with people, how she communicates, how she coaches people, and it's blown me away.

And.

And, you know, I could go on and on about her TED Talk and her books and her and everything, and I will do that as we get into this. But her most recent book, talking on Eggshells, really got my attention. And then more recently, I had had a guest, Michael Bernoff, on my show. And, Sam, I was telling you this before we even started recording, and I was blown away by the response from listeners of this show about communication. They wanted more. How do we communicate with our. With our grown kids? How do we communicate better at work? How do we communicate better with our employees if we're business owners? How do we communicate with friends so that we don't feel the resentment, we don't feel unheard. We don't leave all that on the table, which also can impact our health and our stress levels. So, Sam, thank you so much for being here today.

Oh, you bet. I'm looking forward to sharing some stories and insights with your community.

So I want to back up a little bit, Sam, because I want to know, how did you even become such an eloquent speaker? Like, where did this come from? How did you. Were you born doing this? Was this a learning skill? Was this always part of you? I'm so curious.

You know, it's. I grew up in a cold war, not that kind of cold war. My. My parents, my dad was very emotionally distant, and my mom was emotionally wounded, and they just didn't talk to each other. Natalie. Jill is like, they didn't know what to say. They didn't know how to heal years of hurt. So they would sit in the same room for hours. We would go on drives for hours, and no one would say anything.

Wow.

And so I kind of grew up conflict avoidant, right? If something's hard, something's difficult, if you don't know what to say, you just don't say anything.

So you learn to kind of keep your mouth shut and just sit back. And what did that do to you growing up with that?

You know, it's like, what you. You start internalizing everything. It's like somebody says something that's hurtful and you want to like, say, hey. However, you have learned not to respond in the moment. And so you just end up suffering in silence with a lot of I should have said. I wish I'd said. And of course, that doesn't make conflict go away. It just makes it worse. Yeah.

So what changed with you? Because if you're growing up learning that you're keeping your mouth shut, you're learning to be avoidant of it. What changed? When did you first learn? You know what, there's some another way.

You know, I was in a relationship then with someone who is a narcissist. And I call them 5 percenters because I think that 95% of people care what's fair. They want a win win. They want to cooperate. Well, bullies or narcissists, they don't. They want to control, not to cooperate. They want to win. Not a win win. And I ended up writing a book about take the bully by the horns. Because what I learned is if we're dealing with a strong personality, they will steamroll over us and all of our kindness and our empathy and putting ourselves in their shoes. That actually backfires with those type of 5 percenters.

Now, when you said you end up in a relationship, so that wasn't a parent, that was somebody that you were actually in a relationship with. So did you connect the dots there that maybe the way that you grew up drew you to that?

Oh, you know, I didn't know. I don't know about the word draw. What I do know is that I did not see it coming. In fact, a psychologist one time said, why did you end up in a relationship with someone so controlling? I never thought of it as controlling. When he planned every detail of our dates, I thought, cool. You know, when he pursued me relentlessly, I thought he just really wants me. I did not know that those were the signs of controlling behavior. So I'm kind of a woman on a mission for how can we, especially in midlife, now is the time for us to start using our voice. Whether it's at work, whether it's with our family. It is. It is time to stop being silent because that hurts us and it models it for our kids. And I don't think that's what we want to do.

So how did you get out of that box? Because that's amazing. You wrote a book, you started speaking out, and I've heard how you speak. But how did that happen? Because a lot of people in those relationships are being raised that way. They are really, truly Silent. And they never learn that skill or they're too scared to speak up. So what shifted, Natalie?

Jill, you just used the secret word skill. It is a skill to do this. We learn math and science and history. We don't learn what to say when someone accuses us of something that's not true. We don't learn what to do when people are complaining. We don't learn to do what to do when people are arguing or blaming. So I wrote a book called Tong Fu. And it's like, here's what to say in those situations. It's a skill. You can acquire it. You can have clarity and confidence, so you can speak up in the moment instead of thinking of the perfect response on the way home.

So I'm. You say skill, and I'm so curious. Did you. Is this like that you came up with it? Did you study other people?

Where did.

How did you even get that skill? Skill? Because obviously I know listeners right now. They can. They can cheat the system. They. You've got all these books so they can go listen to them and learn. But how did that even. How did you develop that?

It's street interviews is that I don't have a PhD, and so I did. I did not go to college to get educated in this. And this actually has become. My secret sauce is because I don't talk about theories. You know, I don't talk about. Don't let people get under your skin. No. What do you say? And so I would interview taxi drivers, waitresses, lawyers, and it's like, all right, what do we. We say when someone accuses us of something that we didn't do? So shall we just go into an example? Yeah, I would love to. Once again, the words so we don't have to be tongue tied or tongue twisted again. Ready? Yeah. Okay. Now, you know me, by the way. Unless people are driving, I hope they get paper.

Let's do it. Let's get paper.

Put down three columns. The first column are situations, and we'll talk about what to do when someone's Be. When someone's canceling us out, what to do when someone is swearing, what to do when our teenager doesn't.

Oh, my gosh. How long do you have? My gosh. Eight hours. Okay, so, yeah, let's get in. Let's get into some of it. How.

Okay, so. And the first column situation is this is what to do if someone accuses us of something untrue. So I'm speaking at a leadership conference, and a woman put her hand up, and she said, sam, why are women so catty to each other? Now, in the middle column, put deny. Because, see, if someone accuses us of something, our instinct is to say, well, I don't think women are catty. Off we go. Do you see how it actually argues their point? Yes. So instead, we're going to redirect the conversation instead of deny it. And here's the words. I said, ladies, I said, let's agree. We're never going to ask or answer that question again because every time we do, we perpetuate that stereotype. We're going to Don Draper it. He said, if you don't like what's being said, change the conversation. So the bridge line is. Do you know what I found? I think women are real champions of each other. You know, I wouldn't have this. So imagine someone says, you know, you don't love me anymore. I do, too love you.

It just creates an argument.

Denying it goes back and forth instead. Now use these four words. What do you mean? Well, we haven't been on a date in months. Odd. You see how the four words. What do you mean? You never listen to me. I do too listen to you. Down the rabbit hole we go. What do you mean? Well, you've had your head in the phone for the last hour. You haven't even looked up. You know, you don't love me anymore. What do you mean? Well, we haven't had a date in months. Do you hear how the words. What do you mean? Reveal the real issue? We respond to that instead of react to the action.

What do you mean? I like that. What do you mean? So you. That's in conversation. What do you mean? But on stage, like that just happened. You wouldn't have directed back. What do you mean?

You would have.

You would have basically agreed, like you did in a way, and then said a different opinion that you had without arguing.

That's right. Let's go into work. Someone says, you don't care about your customers. No. Say, what do you mean? Right. And they may say, well, I've left three messages and no one's called back. Or you can redirect it, especially if you feel that the intent of the person is to knock you off balance. This is a troll. This is someone who's looking to control. Then we do not ask what they mean because we give them a bully pulpit. Then we just say, I think women are so emotional. You know what? I think emotions are good in business. It means we deeply care. And we combine that with our expertise and our passion for this. So you See, how. What do you believe? What do you want to go record on? And that's if you're on stage or if you're dealing with someone who is trying to knock you off balance, you just go on record with what you want to be known for instead of arguing with their accusations.

Makes sense. Okay. So I want to ask more examples. However, I don't want to skip the reason we get defensive, because I believe the reason we get defensive like that is it triggers something in us. So. And that's why people get defensive. And then ego comes up because. So I. I'd love to speak a little bit into that or have you share, because I'm sure there's times people have said things to you that you feel you're human, you get the trigger. So how do you stop yourself from that reaction and redirect yourself to the right way to respond?

I'm so glad you said that. So let's talk about getting knocked off balance. Right? Is that you're using the word trigger. I actually think. Natalie, Jill, it comes from. We cannot believe that people are behaving this way. We cannot believe that they will deliberately do something that's manipulative or controlling or mean girl or something like that. So, see, our reaction is one of disbelief or shock.

Okay.

And if we're dealing with a 5 percenter, that's what they want. They're actually knowingly saying, oh, you look good in stripes. They're so slimming.

They know what they're saying.

It's that passive aggressiveness, manipulative. Then we do what's called name the game. And when we say, does that work with other people? Do you see how in naming the game, we actually surface the agenda? The tactic. We address the tactic. So if we're dealing with the salesperson and they're really pushy, you know, we say, you're not trying to rush me into a decision anymore, are you? You know, well, not anymore, they're not. It's like if we deal with two people and a senior comes in and gives us assignment, then junior comes in a half an hour later. We ask ourselves, what is happening here? And we say it is that. Please stop putting me in the middle. The two of you decide which is the priority, and then I'll start on it. It's. You know, a couple told me that this helped save their marriage because they were both under a lot of stress and they were both carping on each other. And you know what? They've learned to say, we've had a bad day. Let's not take it out on each other. Do you see what is happening? We've had a bad day. Let's not take it out on each other. And now we're aware of what's happening instead of just being in the middle of it.

Yes. That's so good. So good. Such a, such a shift on that. Okay, let's talk about. I want to go to the teenager conversation because this is a big one and a lot of listeners have teenagers or young adult, younger adults. And I'm sure you've navigated that and there's a lot of whatever we. I, I can say being right in it because I have a 16 year old. If sometimes it feels like whatever I say is the wrong thing doesn't matter, and, and I'll even think, okay, she just said this. I can respond one of ten ways and no matter what I pick, it's the wrong way. Can you speak a little into that? How do we handle the people that no matter what we say, it feels wrong?

Okay. And, and so a story be. And then the reveal of the both the mindset we can have in that and what we can say in that situation. I was speaking at a conference and a group of us then were in the halls afterwards and one woman said, just exactly what you said. My. She says, I'm a single mom. I have one daughter. We used to be best friends. And then she turned 13.

Yes, that's what happens at 13 is the evil number.

She said on, on her 13th birthday, I came downstairs and she looked at me and she said, mom, can't you do something with your hair?

Oh, gosh.

And she said, it's so painful, you know, like you said, everything I do is wrong. And so I said, all right, you should write about this. Now let's come up with a title. I said, put yourself in the scene where your daughter said something with an exclamation mark and she didn't even have to think about it. She said, you know, I'm, I just, I just worry so much about my daughter and our relationship. I thought, oh, I know, I'll go to a conference with her so that she can meet my workers. She can understand what I do. It'll be bonding. No. And the first thing someone says is, oh, you're just like your mom. Guess what she said.

Yeah, that triggers the heck out of mine. It triggers my daughter like crazy.

Yep. I said, that is the title of your book Not Like My Mother.

Oh, that's great.

Subtitle is why Daughters of Smart Women Rebel and What to do about it.

Oh, that's so good.

You know, the key is understanding. When we're a teenager, as you said, we do not like to be our parent. And if our parent is successful or beautiful or talented or strong, we will do the opposite of that in order to have our own identity. So I'm going to tell a story, and then a word we're going to start using. Okay? Is that a woman said, sam. My daughters are. I have two twin daughters. They started driving and dating the same day. I'm a nervous wreck. I worry all the time until my daughters one night came home late. I. I'm. Are they in some ditch somewhere? You know, why are they calling? Did something happen? And they came in and she said, what did I do? I started in on them, right? Because I was. Where have you been? I didn't know if you. And they interrupted her and they said, mom, you think you show us how much you love us by worrying about us? You're showing us that you don't trust us. So for every woman out there, we are going to replace the word worry with trust. I trust that you will use good judgment. I trust that you will figure it out. I trust that. That you'll be able to work this through. Do you see how that's what they want? They want our trust that they're smart and talented and resourceful. And when we start using this word instead of, you know, I. What if you don't pass that test? You know, what if. What if this boy does this to. No, no, no. No more worry. Trust. Wow.

So, okay, this just happened recently. So I live in Arizona, and I just moved from San Diego. And my daughter goes back and forth right now because she's 16 and her dad's in San Diego, so we have a schedule. And she goes back and forth. And I happen to be in San Diego on the time she's supposed to be with him. And I said, okay, on my way back to Arizona, I'm just gonna stop by and say hi because I had to drop a car off and all the things. So I walk in, I see her, and instead of her saying hi, she says, what are you doing here? And right away, well, then my reaction is, right away, well, good to see you, too. Which starts in a whole annoyance of a conversation, right? So those types of things, how do you like. Because they're going to say things that are shocking to us, right? And then at least me, I get defensive, and it's like, whoa. Because I'm thinking, I can't wait to see her, and she's thinking, what are you doing here?

Yeah, it is. I. I'm going to recommend something to you and to everyone on the call. So quick story, and then we'll come back, is that, you know, I grew up hoping to have a family like the Waltons. You know, Night, Mom. Night, dad. No, it was. It was like the Simpsons. It was not like the Waltons, you know, and so, especially in high school, my sons, who had been best friends, one got in sports, one got in video games, and, you know, they actually sometimes had physical fights where I had to intervene. It was. It was tremendously concerning. And I just tried as a mom to keep bringing them together. And. And I realized that at that stage of their life, different was wrong and that they were acting out some of the stress in our family. So what I did is I put pictures of them up on the refrigerator. Pictures of. Of Tom whispering in Andrew's ear and him being. Pictures them playing sports together. And even when they were in the middle of it, I planted the seed that you were best friends at one point in your life. And right now, different is wrong. Just give each other space, and someday you will come back together again as brothers. So you know what? Instead of reacting to the hurt of. Of the people we love most in the world, not wanting to have anything to do with us, we're going to have trust and patience and love. Pema Shroudhan says, do not let people pull you into their storm.

So good.

Pull them into your peace. So we will be the loving, patient, wise parents that understand this is a stage of their life. We will have pictures on our refrigerator of our closeness. We will give them the space in their teens to become their own person, trusting that the example that we're setting will endure. And in their own time, they will come back to us because it is their decision. And we modeled what it's like to continue in the midst of those times, to be loving and kind and patient. And they will warm to us because the energy is not like this anymore. They're back, back, back, or bark, bark, bark. Right. No, our energy is like this warm, kind, loving, trust. And that is when they have the space to come back to us, because the energy is not like this.

So good. I love that. And. And. Or also when they need something, they will be very nice. So you'll have temporary still, because I know that I also not feel like, well, she's not nice right now, but she's gonna need something in a minute or she's gonna want a coffee. From Starbucks and she's gonna be really nice.

So guess what? You know, they're capable of it.

Yes, yes, we know they're people.

And let's basically just talk. Is it because this just came out in conversation we are going to get rid of actually, there's a whole words to lose and words to you. So let's talk about, specifically about that. Because especially when things are tense between us, there are trigger words. And if we use these words, it will. And of course, we've heard this before. It's the, the. The cancel cure is to get rid of the word but. Well, I know you want to go out, but I know you want to use the car, but I know it's important to you, but I know you don't want to study. But if we use the word but we are creating a conflict is an adversarial word. I'm not listening to. I am listening to you. But you know, I know you want to do that, but do you see how the word but is actually setting up?

I do. And I, I've actually replaced it with the word and. But now she's on to that.

That's right. In fact, right, here's the good news. And Natalie, Geo, once again, because my sons are in the 30s, I'm speaking from experience that if we keep modeling this and if we keep these words to lose words to use on the refrigerator, they start using them.

That's right.

That's so. In fact, here are two words. Be sure to get rid of these words. Our kids ask something and often we say can't because, you know, can I go out and play with my friends? No, you can't because you haven't cleaned your room. Can I watch tv? No, you can't. Or not TV these days. Netflix these days, right? Can I watch Netflix? No, you can't, because you haven't done your chores. Look at that room. Look at that trash. How many times do I have to tell you? And we're off and running. Look at those words can't. Because often we can use yes, you can as soon as. Yes, you can play with your friends as soon as you finish your homework. Yes, you can watch Netflix as soon as you finish your chores. You know, I'm around my grandson Hero a lot these days who's the. The son of Mickey Agrawal and Andrew Horn. And I just did this at a soccer game the other day. It's like he wanted to watch his iPad. And I said, yes, you can as soon as you buckle up. Guess what? Now he buckles up. And then he asked for the iPad and they start doing it themselves. It's like. And now guess what? We don't even say anything. Natalie. Jill, you've got the world's best eyebrows. If they ask for something once, you start the can as soon as. Instead of. They say, can I. Can I. Oh, what's something. We haven't talked. Can I go outside? And. And we just look at him. I know. As soon as I'm done, as soon as I feed the dog, you know, guess what? They start understanding. And by the way, a single mom said, my kids see me as a big meanie because I tell them no all the time. They think I'm blocking them from what it is they want When I say, yes, you can. As soon as. Look who's in charge of getting.

That's right. You're putting it back on them to be in charge. I love that. So I'm going to start using that a lot.

Yeah.

So can't. And then what else should.

What?

I love these. What else should we be getting rid of?

Okay, so let's get our notes. So we have. If someone accuses us of something, we don't. True. Don't. Don't deny. Redirect. What do you mean? You know, what I found is what to do if we have to tell someone no. Instead. No, you can't, because say yes, you can as soon as. Now let's talk about what to do if someone makes a mistake, if our kids do something wrong. Sound good?

Yeah.

Now, this quick little story. I'm visiting Andrew, New York, and hero was one at the time. He starts crawling across the floor. He hauls himself up on a guitar over in the corner. He starts banging on the strings. And now in the middle box, Andrew could have said no. He could have said, stop banging on the guitar. He could have yanked it away. All of which would have made Hero feel bad. Instead, Andrew said one word. Do you know what it was? Gentle. I saw hero's face change in front of me. Transform. He reached back to the guitar. He went strum, strum, strum. And in that moment, Hero made music. Because instead of criticizing what he did wrong, he coached him how to do it right.

Yeah, because most parents would say, stop it, it or take it in that middle column.

Put should and put stop and put don't. Because if we say, stop teasing your sister, guess what they're going to do if we say stop making so much noise. When we focus on what we don't want and what they should stop, we actually Reinforce the negative behavior. So over on the right, instead of, well, you should have called if you were going to be late. Next time, if you're going to be more than five minutes late, please call so that I know you're safe and you're on your way home. Do you see? We're coaching instead of criticizing. We're shaping instead of shaming, instead of saying, that's not how you do the dishes, you know, or like, you know, you dog, you know, you. You forgot to feed the dog again, right? Look at all those words. You forgot to do this. You were late again. You're be. You know, you can't go out looking like that. All of those are argumentative words. Instead, it's like, so, you know, we. We just say, dog, I forgot to feed the dog. And now they do it willingly instead of reluctantly because we're not ordering them around. In fact, you want more words to add to the list?

Yes. And then I want to ask you about that situation with my daughter again when I come back.

Okay, good. Okay.

Because I want to hear how you would have handled that.

Okay. It is in the middle box, put the words you have to. And you need to. Nellie, Jill, do you know anyone who likes be ordered? And yet these are default words. And especially if we're in a relationship with our spouse, it's not just our kids. It's like a man did one of this and he said, oh, my gosh, now I know how the romance has gone out of our relationship. You need to get gas in the car on the way home. You know, it's like, you need to call your mom and tell her we can't come weekend. Those words, you need to. You have to actually take affection out of a relationship because we're ordering them around if they're kids. So now we say, could you please. Could you please call your mom, let her know we can't make it this weekend? Could you please get gas in the car on the way home? You know, could you please, you know, build in a cushion for Murphy's Law so that we can get there on time? And you see how now we're treating even our partner with courtesy instead of giving them commands.

That makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense now.

And. And once again, for. For moms and parents, it's like, you should put on a jacket. It's cold outside. Do you feel how that just kind of. No.

It feels like an order.

Yeah. Anything. However do you say you might. You might want to put on a jacket. It's Cold outside. Do you see how we're giving them autonomy over their life? You know, you might want to call your friend and let her know that you. You won't be able to make it to the birthday party. You see, we're giving them space and Grace to make their own decisions instead of telling them what to do all the time.

Makes a lot of sense. Yes. Yes. Okay, so back to the situation. When I walked in and she said, what are you doing here? What would have been the right response?

Okay, Natalie, Jill, all of us, we're going to continue to be the quality of person we want to be even when other people aren't. So see that, that was a little bit snarky. Correct. A little bit hurtful, a little bit snarky. If we come back with, well, good to see you too. Oh, snark, meet snark. Which is what I did, you know, which, by the way, repeated. Repeated. Repeated behavior gets rewarded. Right. So if they say something snarky and we react, when you're in that teenage space, it's a little bit of a win because we got a reaction, right? Yeah, it was a little bit of a wound, which, in a way, when you're a teenager, is asserting your independence. Right? Is asserting. It's a little bit of a power play. Correct. So do you see how we name it? And so we stay kind. We. We give her a warm smile and we say. And we use their name. We say, it's good to see you, Penelope Grace.

Yeah.

That's how you want to be. You want to be. You want to continue to be the quality of person you want to be no matter what. So if they're snarky, if they say something hurtful, stay in your peace, your pemish, roden peace. And in a way, let that kind of behavior bounce off like that, because then you are the center in the storm. You are the peace in the storm. And at some level, they will respect that and they will warm to that and like it because they see that it's a good way to be and that they are not rocking your boat.

Makes total sense. I like that. Okay, so let's talk about being accused of something. Not necessarily from your teenager, but it could be, I guess, but from anyone when someone accuses, because that's another trigger response for people where they're taken off guard and feel combative. What's the right. Is that, like you. You gave a sort of a redirect and a flip earlier when you said, what do you mean? Would that be the same Advice or something else there.

It's especially sometimes the accusion accusations come with extreme words, like always. Yeah, it's like you really blew the. If it's at work, it's like, boy, you really dropped the ball on that presentation. Or you did a terrible job on that zoom call or something like that. Often it's a sweeping generalization. Correct. And that's. Once again, we're back on our heels, which is like, well, I put a lot of time and effort in on that. Or I don't know how you could say that so and so liked it. Do you see? Once again, it's this back and forth accusation reaction. Down the rabbit hole we go. Use the words over on the right, what's specific? And now notice this. We do not say what was wrong with it. Right. Because you see how we just imprinted the accusation. We use two words, specific and Right. So how specifically do you think it could have been better? How specifically could I have done a better job with that presentation? And how specifically can we handle those zoom calls more effectively in the future? This is called finding solutions instead of finding fault. So finding fault is when we reinforce, say, people are arguing. Well, you drop the ball on it. Don't look at me. You are the one who is supposed to. Do you see how if we say, what happened here, what went wrong here? We're reinforcing the finding of pain. Do you see how. Use these words, let's not do this. Right. Or we can say, this won't help. Because that is what's called a pattern interrupt. In almost every technique in talking on eggshells is a pattern interrupt. Elvis said, when things go wrong, don't go with them.

So good.

Right. So see, when things go wrong, don't say, don't be defensive. Well, I put a lot of time and effort on that. Well, so and so thought it was good. No, no, no, no. We're going with what's wrong. We are the pattern interrupt. And often you're an athlete. What does a referee do? If people are getting into it, what does a referee do? They blow the whistle or they go, time out. Right. We can do the same thing. We can. We can go, wait a minute, we can say, time out. This won't help. Let's not do that. Instead, let's focus on how we can get this customer back. Instead, let's figure out how we can prevent this from happening in the future. Instead, let's. Let's discuss how we can work together on a team in order to get this ready by the deadline.

What's coming in for me? Everything you're saying is so on point, but it was coming in for me is why people don't do what you're suggesting. Because I think it comes down to intention. And correct me if I'm wrong. Because, like, your intention is to create neutral space. Your content, your intention is to have resolution. Your intention is not to argue. I think the reason people just don't go to that is emotions are running high, egos are kicking in, and people want to be right. So I. I guess my question for people listening is, what's your intention? Because I think, like, logically, what you're saying is right there and then I can think of myself being in an emotional spot. I'm just gonna own it. And it's like, okay, yes, I know, and I want to be right right now. So I think it's a question of people going, what's my intention? Because, like, take it on social media, which is a totally different topic. But people get very heated about all types of topics, especially in the last few years, especially right now. And people's intentions are not neutrality. People's intentions are to be right, to make somebody else wrong. And I think that's why you see such harsh language.

Oh, boy. Okay, so this is a whole big topic. So let me be a couple specific things that we can do. Is that a quick example? I. I saw Judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg on CBS Sunday Morning, and the reporter was kind of shocked. She said, I can't believe it. You go to the opera with Judge Scalia and you are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

Yeah.

How can you do that? And she said, we are different. We are one. And Natalie, Jill, you are right that many people these days are looking for reaction. They're looking to. Well, Colette said, the better we feel about ourselves, the fewer times we knock someone down in order to feel tall. So, see, there. There are people online looking to take people down because it makes them feel better about themselves. So once again, we are going to be proactive instead of reactive. We are not going to react to their agenda. We are going to assert ours, which is being proactive instead of reactive. It is to get bigger and stronger and more centered and clear that we will not be rocked by that. So, for example, if we are getting into an argument, we can say, you know what? We're both right. See if. Because sometimes that's true, especially in a family. They have a particular point of view. You have a particular point of view. They are different, and they are one. Yes, they're not wrong.

So this is like. And I don't want to get too off track here, but, like, very relevant to what's going on in the world right now. Because what people don't see, which I very much feel and see, is people have deep, deep generational wounds and deep past. And they're everywhere. People are coming from their own stories and their own cultures, their own this. So what's happening is both people are right. Honestly, like, because you're gonna. You're gonna believe your background, of course you're gonna believe your culture, you're gonna believe what you've been brought up to believe. So that's very triggering for people to see that, including me. Right. So I. I'm human too. And I have to remind myself, somebody else saying something opposite it. That's their true belief set. So it's not. It's like you said, we are both right, even though that's hard to say it's true so many times.

So. And do you see how we're acknowledging that we. We, you know, you've heard, let's agree to disagree. Which is another way to say that, which is like, I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind. And as you said, if we both think we're right, we're both going to be wrong. Right. Because we are seeing the other person as wrong. We're trying to make them see the error of their ways or why what they're thinking is not correct or that's.

Not going to work.

That's a conflict. That a conflict is a battle for control. And if we're convinced we're right, they're convinced they're right, and we keep going at it. We're not going to change each other's mind. That. And now I hope people write down these words that. That serves no good purpose. Yeah.

And please say that instead of do your research, because that's when people say that. I'm like, oh, boy. Do your. That's like the cop out that triggers everyone. Do your research.

Yep. So can I share an example once again, in the real world, what do we do when we're at loggerheads with someone, you know, when. When we have reached that impasse and we're about to ruin a relationship, because if we keep, you know, arguing and ramping up and getting more intense and ang. It's going to cause a rift that perhaps can't be healed. So I. There was a woman in the speaking industry. She was iconic, and we had Monthly phone calls for 25 years. And a few years ago, she said rather casually in one of our phone calls that she thought that the president at the time was the best president we'd ever had. Natalie. Jill. I was shocked because I thought just the opposite. And I couldn't believe someone I respected and admired and had known for 20 years had such a polar opposite opinion. And at the end of the phone call, I wondered if we were ever going to talk again.

Wow.

And. And it, you know, it was. I just. And she.

Because you couldn't understand, you coming from such different viewpoints.

Yes, that's right. So I was very fortunate because when I was thinking, all right, am I going to throw away at that time a 20 year friendship over this disagreement. And I grew up in Southern California on a horse, and there were dry riverbeds with quicks and, like, did our parents forbid us from riding horses because they knew that was the quicksand out there? No, they just told us to avoid the quicksand. So, see, in the middle, if we are once again at an impasse, maybe you were going into Thanksgiving here, going into the holidays, if there's a family member and they have a completely opposite political opinion and they know they're going to stir it up at dinner and everyone's going to get, yeah, that's my family, stamp out and so forth, that'll.

Be my family at this Thanksgiving.

Yes. Okay, so you can declare this a quicksand conversation. Instead of quitting the relationship, instead of getting embroiled in hurtful arguments, we can say we have strong. We both feel very strongly about this, and it looks like we're not going to change each other's mind. Let. Let's honor what we have in common instead of what we have in conflict. We have so much more, and that's what. What Glenna and I agreed to do. We have so much more in common than we do in conflict. She's not going to change my mind. I'm not going to change her. I want to honor the 20 year relationship. And now, by the way, there are two words we can use. Someone may be thinking, it's too late. You know, we already had that conversation and we haven't talked now in a year or two years. It's back to an Andrew story, is that we grew up in Maui. We were in the Lee of Haleakala, so it never rained, except this one day, it rained all day, and Andrew turned the hall wall into a mural. Natalie. Jill, I am not a happy camper. I am letting him know about it. And in the middle of it, he looks up at me and he says, says two relationship changing words. He says, fresh start.

And you know what's funny?

It was, I realized yelling at him didn't undo it. Didn't do any good. You know, this is not the parent I wanted to be. This was not how so. So what I'm suggesting is if we have a rift in a relationship, if things have been said, I will never forgive her. I can't believe he did that. That you pick up the phone and you give them a call and you say, let's not even go into who said what and why. Can we have a fresh start? And you know what? It can be because she's gone now. And Natalie in perspective. I'm so glad we decided to make that a quicksand topic, because now we have results instead of regrets.

Yeah.

And if we have regrets in a relationship, let's have a fresh start. Let's focus on what we have in common instead of what we have in conflict.

So good. So good. When do you ever get tripped up with this? I mean, are there times where you catch yourself and say, gosh, I'm not taking my own advice, or.

Yeah.

And how do you get back on track?

It's with 5 percenters. It's because our strength, taken to an extreme, is our Achilles heel. And see, you know, Natalie, Jill, I have the pleasure of knowing you. I know that you are a person in integrity. I know that you are a proactive person. I know that you want to treat people with respect. And if we are dealing with a 5 percenter, it is surreal because we cannot believe that people would knowingly be cruel. We cannot believe that people would intentionally hurt others. Now, once again, go back to the agenda of a 5 percenter. They will knowingly do things to knock you off balance because they can come in for control. In fact, on the Larry King show, five minutes into the interviewer, the guest said, by the way, Larry, has anyone ever told you you have really bad breath? And Larry. Oh, yeah. Larry kind of fell back in his chair and he said, well, no. And the individual said, well, I won't bother them. Now look at the dynamics. It was Larry King's show.

Wow.

Presenters, bullies, narcissists, don't want someone else to have a show. They want to run the show. They will do or say anything to knock someone off balance. Now, people said, sam, what could Larry King have said? Yeah, he could have said, does that work with other people? Do you see how name the game and you neutralize the game. Or he could have gone up a notch and he could have said, shame on you. Because when we're dealing with 5 percenters, I'm going to suggest something that flies in the face of what we've been taught. So do we have time for a quick little story?

Yeah, of course.

Okay. So there was a single mom. She had two daughters. One was graduating from a high school, and the other was graduating from Georgetown University on the same day. She couldn't be there, so she went to the high school, and her. Her ex husband, who was Persona non grata because he was a 5 percenter, showed up at the daughter's graduation at Georgetown, and no sooner did she get her diploma than he walked up and said, you just threw thousands of dollars down the drain. Why did you get a degree in political science? You're not going to be able to get a job in that. Natalie. Jill. She did a pattern interrupt. She held her hand up. She said, dad, stop. She said, do I look like my mother? He said, I am proud of getting this degree from this university. If you are here to help me celebrate, you are welcome to stay. If you're not, leave. And if we are dealing with a 5 percenter who has a pattern of saying mean or hurtful or rude things to knock us off balance so they can be in control, do not use the word I. We've been taught to. I don't think that's fair. I don't like to be spoken to in that tone of voice. I don't like. The word I with a 5 percenter is double jeopardy because they always make it everyone else's fault. So if we say I, we're owning their misbehavior, right? Do the. You. You back off. You. Enough. You take your hand off my shoulder. You clean it up. Do you see what she said? If you are here to help me celebrate, you are welcome to stay. If you're not, leave. Do you see how the word you keeps the attention on their misbehavior instead of our reaction to it?

And I guess the recogn. Recognition. I've. I also had a. I've been in many relationships like that with those types of people that will never change them. To. To know that we'll never change them. We can only react differently.

You are 100%. In fact, here is. Because I did write a book, take the bully by the horns, because as you said, Sam, when do you ever get tripped up? Well, Tung Fu is based on, you know, Gandhi. Be the change you wish to see and see. 95% of people have a conscience. And if we do all of these proactive responses, finding solution, not fault, what do you mean? Instead of that's not true, it's like, how would I feel? Instead of like, how rude, etc. We actually, we are the ones setting the tone. And most people will respond in kind. Five percenters, they see this as weakness. So here's, here's what we do. In the middle of dealing with a surreal situation where someone was really trying to take me out, knock me down, take me out, control me, ruin my self esteem, etc. A good friend showed me a quote from William Blake. And William Blake said, we are all born innocent and at some point we will encounter evil. And at that point we either become embittered and that person or incident defines or defeats us or. You ready for two of the most beautiful words in the English language? Informed innocence. See, we realize that there are 5 percenters in the world who are jealous of us, so they're going to take us down. So they can feel tall and we can be small, who want to be like us, want to have friends, be popular and they're not, so they'll try and destroy it. We understand that that exists. We do not let it define and defeat us. We continue to be who we are and in a way we can be proud of so we have results and not regrets. And by the way, Tennessee Williams said, sometimes it is time to leave even when there's no particular place to go.

Oh, so good.

If we recognize we are in a relationship with a 5 percenter, as you said. Natalie, Jill, we may be thinking, I'm going to stay in this relationship because, you know, for the. Keep the family intact, for the kids. What we accept, we teach. We are teaching our kids that this is how men treat women or this is what a marriage looks like, or you stay. No matter how awful it goes, go it is. Is that what we want to teach? No. We want to teach that people treat each other with respect. We want to teach that we try everything we can in order to preserve a relationship. And if the pattern is set and the person will not change, then we remove oursel from the toxicity because that's what we want to teach our kids. Excellent agency.

So good. Sam. Gosh, Sam, this is fantastic. Talking on Eggshells is her most recent book. They can. You can find it anywhere books are sold, I'm assuming. Is there a specific place you want them to go or, you know, thank you.

They're welcome to go to Amazon or Their favorite independent. And if they come to my website, I actually have post on this, I have videos on this. My goal is that people have a resource. There's even a bully quiz to figure out if you're dealing with center.

Oh, we all have to take that. So how do they find that? Where. What website to.

SamHorn.coms a M H O-R-N.com and I hope people follow me on LinkedIn because. Because you and I are both.

Is that Your main place? LinkedIn. LinkedIn, yeah, I'm glad you said that. I would have said Instagram or what? I'm so glad you said so. LinkedIn. Find her on LinkedIn and follow her there. What? Why do you want them to follow you there? What's the. Do you put more information out there? Where is that where you share most?

It's because. It's because I give real life examples. You know, my life is my lab. And so if someone in a program says, you know, I work for a bully, boss, boss, you know, and I'm the one holding the office together and he or she's the one getting all the credit and they deliberately, you know, undermine me, take my ideas, etc. Yeah. So what can I do? So when people tell me about what they're facing, I write about it in LinkedIn. Here's a real life story. So that's happening to me and here's exactly what we can do or say so that we're proactive instead of reactive and once again, so that we have agency and we're actually working to improve the situation, make it better, instead of just suffering in silence. I love that.

Thank you so much, Sam. This is fantastic. Thank you.

You bet. I hope people have found it interesting and useful and that they choose. Joyce Meyer said, life may give us a cactus, we don't have to sit on it.