Why 50% of Midlife Women Have Anxiety (And What Big Pharma Won't Tell You)

Anxiety and depression seem to be very hot topics with midlife women specifically. And it tends to be more talked about. I believe in late 40s, 50s, even early 60s is this prime time? And what's unique for that age group is we didn't used to talk about that years and years ago. It was kind of this hush hush, keep it quiet, don't share. And now with online and the ChatGPT conversations and just the whole slew of social media posts making it normal, we seem to hear about anxiety and depression a lot. But what happens when it's debilitating and you are unable to actually get out and enjoy your regular life? And how do you know if it's just normal sadness or normal anxious feelings or it's actually a problem and what can we actually do about it? And when, if ever, is medication appropriate? Like when is Xanax okay? And if we're self sustaining, soothing ourselves, if we're actually doing things like drinking wine or even having CBD oil or thc, or you're trying to do things on your own, when is it a problem and when is it actually okay? And a great coping thing today we have a big conversation around this with Dr. Christine Gravino. I have a lot of questions about why this affects midlife women specifically and what exactly we can do with it. So thank you so much for being here today.

Welcome. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Now, I know because you're a psychologist by trade, you have your PhD in psychology and you deal a lot with midlife women. You see these two things all of the time. Can you, can you help us first with just even defining from your perspective, like what actually is anxiety and depression and why do we seem to see so much more of it lately?

I think that's an amazing question, Natalie. I think the word anxiety has multiple different definitions and I think most people who hear the word anxiety believe it has to be panic. They believe it has to be I'm sweating, I'm having trouble breathing. You know, I feel like I'm having a heart attack. And anxiety on a spectrum is as simple as I overthink everything and I perseverate on thoughts and I cannot get my mind to stop racing and it goes all the way to, I feel like I'm having a heart attack and you need to bring me to the hospital. So I think for women in midlife, we know that one out of two women struggle with anxiety and depression and that it's directly related to a decrease in estrogen so as our estrogen decreases, our serotonin, our dopamine, and our GABA are all fluctuating. And those three neurotransmitters are directly related to anxiety and depression. And that's one of the reasons why you see so many midlife women starting to feel more anxious and more depressed.

Okay, now, when you look at anxiety and you mentioned some pretty serious symptoms that could be actually a heart attack, so help us there too. Like, when do you know, you actually wait. This is not just anxiety, and I don't even mean to use the word just because it's. That can be a whole thing. But what do you need to know to make sure we're not having a heart attack?

Well, I think, and hopefully one of the things we'll talk about today is being able to start to regulate your nervous system and learning the skills on how to do that, because that is one of the things I like to teach all of the people that I work with, all of my clients. Taking some deep diaphragmatic breaths, being able to sit on a couch, put your head between your legs. A panic attack, a true panic attack will pass. It may take five or 10 minutes, but it will pass. If you are having tight chest, trouble breathing, and it is going on for more than 30 minutes, it's time to call the medical professional. But also, you typically know if you have a history of depression or anxiety. And so again, if you know you have some anxiety and you're feeling those severe symptoms, then let's give you some skills to utilize so you can actually regulate your nervous system and hopefully come out of that panic attack.

Okay, I don't want to skip over the regulate nervous system, so I am going to come back to that because I want to really deep dive that. But before I do that, you. You combined depression and anxiety. Can you share the difference? Which one is anxiety and which one's depression? And do they always go together?

Such an amazing question. I do think that they almost always go together. So if you think about anxiety and you think about how women in particular carry the load, we carry it all. I always say we're the glue that holds it all together. When we carry a load for that long and we feel anxious for a long period of time, you have nowhere else to go but feel depressed. It's exhausting to carry that load all of the time. So, so many women I work with have told me that they experience anxiety symptoms their whole lives. And then when they hit midlife, when things start to slow down, maybe their children have grown they're so tired that they end up having some symptoms of depression. Just like with anxiety, depression is on a spectrum. Okay. We're not talking about severe depression, needing hospitalization or lying in bed all the time. It's just a low level of sadness, inability to fully enjoy life the way that it's supposed to be enjoyed.

Okay. When you just explained that, what came to mind. And this could be completely a different tangent, but maybe you're going to get it and go know this goes together. Okay. I hear a lot about cortisol and high amounts of cortisol in women, and that kind of presents as anxiety. So it's like this high nervous system cortisol, and then there's a rebound from high cortisol, which is adrenal fatigue. So you'll see like this high cortisol and then you kind of max out and then it's the sadness that. That falls after. Is that the same thing or similar, or are we talking the same language? As to what you just said with anxiety and depression?

Such a great question. I think that it is very similar. I think that we are talking the same thing because all of our systems are constantly interacting with one another. It's why I went into integrative health. It's because you can't separate out what's happening physiologically to what's happening mentally. Right? Right. So increased cortisol levels are absolutely seen in women who have anxiety and depression or increased symptoms of that. They're not separated. You can't separate those things.

You know, it's wild how we. We rename things. Right. Over the years. So. Yes. And that's what I'm seeing because I see all this talk about adrenal fatigue or cortisol, and I'm thinking, wait, this is anxiety and depression?

Correct? Correct. Wild. Which is why so many women. And again, it depends on what social media platform you're on. If you're on tikt. Right. Everyone. Everyone has anxiety and depression. Maybe if you're on Instagram, where. Where my population is more housed, I feel like. Or Facebook. It's adrenal fatigue or it's cortisol.

Okay, now I'm gonna take it to another level. Again. I might be going off a deep end, but I. My brain gets obsessive on studying these things.

No, it's okay. I'm totally into it.

So I've been really down the histamine rabbit hole and mass following you. Okay. And I think that's also part of this whole conversation. Cortisol or high functioning anxiety? Any Thoughts?

I'm ready. Yes, I'm ready to learn from you. I don't know a lot about histamine, but the last thing I heard was that you had an answer.

Yeah.

I weren't ready to tell it. Yeah. And I was like, is she gonna tell it? Yeah. So I'm waiting for that. Yeah.

And I'm not ready to tell the full story, but I'll start with this. Yeah. I actually did really have this. This histamine stuff that was caused from a.

A whole.

I mean, I can really track to what caused it. It was stress for my back surgery. And then it was get. Actually eating this fish and Bali and getting a stomach problem. So I saw the start of it. But what was wild is what it created in my body with my nervous system had me looking really at cortisol and anxiety, like, all of that, and then watching what happened when I was able to shut that stuff down and be able to rebound. So there's more to that story. I don't mean to skip over parts there, and I don't have to, but I do think they all go together. I really. I have this strong belief that they all go together and that I think that a lot of MAST cell activation actually has to do with dysregulated cortisol. That's just my. Natalie's theory. I'm not. I'm certainly not a PhD in anything.

Well, and again, I don't work in a lab, but I. Having 25 years of experience in the field, I do believe that it is all very much connected. And I've lived through it. I've had my own physical traumas, and I've. I have anxiety, but I've learned to regulate it at times. And then when it's not regulated, everything is off.

Yeah. So, okay, I wanna talk about when does anxiety kind of normal and then when's it problematic? Let's start with that. And I'm gonna talk depression a minute, like, so. And I. What I mean by that is you could be anxious because you're waiting to see if you got this promotion. Or you're anxious because you're. Your teenager hasn't come home at night and it's past curfew. Like, when is anxiety, like, normal levels of anxiety versus this is problematic.

Yeah. So we all need anxiety. If we don't have a level of anxiety, then we're couch potatoes and we do absolutely nothing. Right. So a healthy level of anxiety is exactly what you just described. A worry about your teenage child who's not home yet. Maybe you lose a little bit of sleep, but you're. You're. You. You're able to fall asleep. Do you know what I mean? If your concern and your perceptive thought process does not allow you to sleep the entire night, that's dysfunctional. That's. That's a level of anxiety that is not okay for someone because you need sleep. And then it's the domino effect. You don't get sleep, you have more anxiety the next day. Your body's not functioning optimally. If you're unable to focus throughout the day because your brain will not stop thinking about one particular thing. If you can't reframe that or move past that, that's a dysfunctional level of anxiety. We need to help you, right? Whether that's with skills or medication, but you need help.

Then if you don't treat anxiety, what happens?

It just gets worse. It's like a fire. It's like a fire that's being fanned and flamed, Right? And if you ignore it, if you avoid it, that's the worst thing people can do. Because, again, you're just building whatever it is you were worried about, whatever it is that you're struggling with. Every time you avoid it, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

Okay, what about when people. They know it's not great, they feel it. And like, I know I can describe it as. It's like this. Racing thoughts and a lot of, like, manic energy. A little bit like a manic energy feeling. That's how I end.

I used to do this with my fingers. I would just do this constantly, and I would know, oh, something's bothering me.

Or I've also had it described and experienced when it feels like you've had caffeine, but you haven't.

Yes. When is a constant state of energy?

Yes. So when is it okay to do things like, are those things helpful? Like having a glass of wine or having CBD oil or. And I know those are very different things, but when is that okay versus like, this is. We're not addressing.

Okay, I would say that. And this is a sticking point for me, but I would say that not one glass of wine is okay. We now know with the research that's out there, like, zero amount of alcohol is good for us. And I was once someone who absolutely believed that my nightly glass of wine was helping me relax. And all it did was actually increase my level of anxiety, decrease my digestion, decrease my ability to sleep, all thereby giving me less and less and less tools to actually manage what was happening inside My body.

What about something like cbd? Would you say the same thing?

You know, I have no experience with cbd. I feel like there are lots of people who have benefited from cbd. I just don't know enough about it.

Yeah, I'm a fan of cbd. But I will say my always question is, is it another mask? You know, like because, because you, whenever you falsely get rid of something. Right. So. And still, even if it's a natural supplement when you do that, I always wonder if there'll be a rebound from that because you're masking what your body wants to do.

I mean like I am a scientist by training and I believe that capability of changing things within our body without certain things. Now do I think that there's not medicine that we absolutely need in western medicine? Of course I believe that. But I also very much believe that we should try the natural approaches as.

Best we can, which we'll talk about soon. But what about like Xanax? Because that, and I know that one, there's all different types that are the same category as that. I know you're not a prescriber yourself, but you've worked with clients that were on it or did it. What are your thoughts there? Is there ever a temporary use for that?

I 100% believe there is a temporary use for it. I do think that at one time in my practice it was very much overprescribed. I think that doctors now are much more leery to prescribe it. I've had clients just recently be like, well, they'll give me one for a flight, but that's it. Because again they're scared that you're going to get addicted. Benzos are very addictive forming.

Right.

We can get addicted to them very easily. If someone again is not able to shut their brain off and they are, they can't work, they can't function in their relationships. Xanax is indicated.

Yeah.

It is an anti anxiety medication. If your anxiety is that severe and you are being prescribed that by a doctor at a low dose two times a day, then that is going to benefit you. It's going to help you function in real life. Yeah.

I will tell you, with my massive cortisol spikes in my hives, I didn't do Xanax but I did something called hydroxyzine and I don't believe, you know, it's a different class. But I will say that was tremendously helpful for me for a short period of time because to get to be able to do some of the natural things, you Almost. You have to be able to calm something down first.

And this is exactly why it's so useful. Because when I try to teach cognitive behavioral strategies to somebody or I'm trying to teach them how to deep breathe or do progressive muscle relaxation, if they can't even focus on what I'm telling them because they are so heightened, they have to have some mode of calming their system down to be able to think straight. And that's exactly what those medications are used for.

So temporary. But you can ask your. The thing with Xanax is it is very, very habit forming. Very habit forming. So that's something to consider. If you're listening, you're like, well, I need it temporary. You could ask your doctor, like, what is there that's not associated with that? Or that can get that same like the one I took or something else.

Yeah. And I think that most doctors right now, today especially are very good at saying, well, what else have you tried? Are you in therapy? Are you working with a licensed professional to help you with their anxiety? Most doctors are not just going to hand you a prescription of Xanax to deal with anxiety.

Good to know. Good to know. Okay, let's talk about depression for a minute and then we're going to come back to some, some. And I want to. And I didn't forget the estrogen or the natural ways. I have it all written down. But I want to make sure I'm covering all bases here. So when, when we talk about depression, you said they usually go together. But depression, depression is kind of a catch all world. Like obviously if you have a death in your fam, of course you're going to be sad and depressed. You lose your job. So when is it. This is normal. Like we should feel our emotions versus we have a problem.

Yeah. I love how you just use them in the same sentence. But I would separate them. If I have a death in the family, I am sad, I am grieving, and I appropriately need to grieve that loss. Now if that loss continues and I am in bed three months later, I have become depressed. I have become depressed. I should be able to see my family, grieve with my family, cry with my family. I should not be held up in my bedroom in the dark, unable to shower. That is when it crosses the line Right to depression. So I think that's where people tend to use the word when. Maybe it's the word that doesn't need to be used.

Wow. So it should be sad or grieving.

Or I'm really sad.

Yeah.

Yes. If I have, if my son gets hurt at college, I'm just trying to think of like some personal events. I'm sad. I want to get there as fast as I can. And when that is, when that's done and he's been healed, I'm still sad because I didn't want him to lose out on that part of his, you know, college experience per se. But I'm not depressed. I'm working. I'm still able to spend time with my friends and laugh a little bit. But then I come home and I'm. I'm sad again for him. It affects me, you know.

Why do you think these tend to get more common in our age group? You mentioned the estrogen thing, but do you. Is it the life changes happening? Is it aging? Is it specifically hormones? What's that? What's happening?

Well, I think we're going to talk again like we did earlier. I think it's a catch all. I think there's a lot of variables and I think that life is just filled with a bunch of variables that affect us. But so if our kids have gone off and we're empty nesters, I think that's a major transition. We have just gone from being completely needed, completely wanted all the time to all of a sudden we find ourselves not so much a mom 24 hours a day anymore. Now we have to be a wife again. Now we have to be this individual who has a passion of some kind or something they want to do. You know what I mean? Like your whole life is. Yeah. Is caught up in motherhood. So I think that transition takes a really long time and I think a lot of women I work with struggle with that. They don't know how to make the transition from mom to woman again. Yeah, just a woman. So I think that's a real struggle. I think that brings up a lot of anxiety for women and of course they're sad because they don't have their kids home anymore.

Let's talk about the estrogen component for a minute because there's many listening that they still feel these things and they are on estrogen replacement or they are not even in menopause yet and they, their levels are normal. What do you want to share about that?

Well, I think that, listen, I'm not a medical doctor but I know that I've had my own levels checked and I think that they fluctuate at all times. So one snapshot of a blood test once a year at your physical. To me, again, just as somebody who follows science, like doesn't really tell us where our hormone levels are fluctuating from day to day. And since we know that perimenopause can last almost 10 years long, those levels are constantly fluctuating. So when I say a decrease in estrogen causes 1 out of 2 women to experience symptoms of anxiety and depression, it is because those serotonin levels, those dopamine levels, they're constantly moving. So on one day, I may feel super strong and great because my serotonin levels are high and my estrogen is not so bad. But then three days later, it could have tanked and I would have had no idea.

Kind of like when you're have your actual cycle before even, and you like, you. You. You start feeling amazing around ovulation, like leading up, and then right after you have this dramatic drop and you're depressed and sad and all those things. Okay, so one of the things I'm assuming you would tell women is you've got to check your estrogen levels.

I would always check your estrogen levels. Yeah. Do you.

And I know you mentioned you're not a medical doctor, but do you have kind of like a range that you have found that it's kind of ideal for women or is that kind of a. Is that too broad of a question?

Okay, that is out of my stomach.

Okay. What I want to caution with this, and I am somebody on hormone replacement, but it is. It has to be highly individualized. And so. And it's not something that should be used alone. So, like, I always cringe if someone says I am just getting hrt, but they still haven't dialed in their nutrition or they haven't looked at their thyroid. Like it's whole picture. You got to look at everything.

And you know what, Natalie? I'm not a candidate for it. I have a history of a stroke at 21 and I have been told that I can never take.

Wow.

Now I know things are shifting. I don't know what my doctors will say about it. Now, that's scary, but it is scary. And I have done all the research. I've listened to your podcast for years. I know you know, Dr. Mary Claire. I think that they are beneficial for women. But if someone were to come to me and say I'm not a candidate.

Yeah.

I would do exactly what you just said. I would say, okay, where's your nutrition at? Are you strength training? Are you working on your coping strategies for relaxation? Are you managing, you know, your nervous system? Are you sleeping well, you got to have them all if it's going to it's going to work for you, right?

Hey, there. If you're finding value in this episode of Midlife Conversations, I would really appreciate it if you would hit that, like, button and subscribe. And when that little bell pops up, you want to hit that. That way you are notified of all new episodes so you don't miss a beat. Also, you subscribing and liking helps others find this content. And this allows me to keep growing, keep getting amazing new guests for you and to keep sharing. Let's talk about nervous system. That's a big. And it's becoming trendy. I hate when things like. It's like all of a sudden, it's the thing that people talk about, right? Nervous system. But I want to. What is it actually, your nervous system?

Is it cortisol? Is it anxiety? I'm not really sure.

Let's talk about it. Right, right. Regulating nervous system is kind of this. This thing now. So. But what does that mean to you? And you've been obviously doing this with practice and patients for years. But what. What is that really?

It means being able to take a second and. And become aware of how heightened you are. Right. So one of the things I like to tell people all the time is like, just learn how to name it. I'll walk in my kitchen, Thanksgiving, and I'll just say to the. The microwave, I'm overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed. And I will say it out loud. Most women don't even recognize that they're feeling dysregulated, whatever word we're using today, Right? So being able to just simply understand, I didn't sleep. I've got 10 people in my house. I desperately want all the food to be hot at the same time. Like, that's too much. It's too much. So to be able to just name it, to tame it, I'm overwhelmed. What do I have to do? Okay? I have to stand here for two minutes and take a breath. Maybe I need to go outside and get some cold, fresh air on my face for five minutes. It can be as simple as that, right? It can be as simple as telling myself I have to start my day with 30 grams of protein today. Because if I don't, I understand the science that if I don't eat protein, I will feel more anxious. It's connected. Now we have the studies to prove it. Protein is connected to anxiety. So sometimes it's just teaching people how to make that one bare minimum choice to feel calmer to get through their day.

When somebody is in that state of overwhelm and anxiety. When someone says take a deep breath or slow down or relax, it triggers things that we don't want to talk about.

Right. The worst thing you could possibly do to somebody.

So that being said, for those of you listening, don't go tell the person in your life that's anxious that.

Because that doesn't work, just don't. And in fact, you made a reel once with Brooks. I think about that, and I was dying because it was so true. It's like, please don't tell me to calm down.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I will tell you that what is very helpful is if you notice when you're talking to somebody like I'm talking to you right now, if you were talking really fast, I would start talking really fast. But when you talk slow and calm, it naturally will calm the other person down. So you breathing calms the other down. So one thing I've, I've sort of learned when someone else is in, that it's not you telling them, but it's your actions. They'll start mirroring 100%. Do you do that in therapy?

Yes, very much so. Yeah. I will have some people come to me and they're so heightened and they're speaking so quickly that I literally just have to take my entire body and show that I'm relaxed and slow my own talk down. Because their behavior is heightening me. Like, you can feel the energy, right, when someone is behaving like that.

Yeah, yeah.

I've actually taught my husband, we've been together over 35 years, to just hug me. Don't say anything. Just pull me into an embrace. Because I am feeling anxious, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I don't need you to tell me to calm down. I don't need you to remind me of my own skills. I know what they are.

Your love language. That's probably physical touch.

Then, yes, I would scoop me up.

Yeah. I would tell Brooks to do the dishes. Don't touch me when I'm feeling this way.

That's even better. I love it.

But if you start doing acts of services, I will be all, you know, clean the house for me. I will be happy.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's funny. So for the person listening and they don't have that person to help, maybe, and you're saying just take a moment to name it, to tame it. But do you have any kind of quick, like, what will actually help them calm down in sort of this instant when they know they're in this frenzy?

Yeah. First of all, breathing. I mean, you had an Entire podcast with a woman who teaches breathing. In my doctorate program, we had an entire semester of a course on breathing. So deep diaphragmatic breathing and the different kinds that you can do actually act as a medicine. It's again, been proven with studies. If you breathe every single day, it builds in your system, just like an SSRI would, and it takes your entire being just down a notch. Right. So I would tell people and I would teach them, how do you belly breathe? Do you push your stomach out when you breathe in? Because if you don't and if you go all the way up with your chest, it's not going to do anything for your nervous system. Right. So I would first tell them to take a nice breath through their diaphragm, and then I would tell them, make sure your exhale is longer than your inhale. Too many people think it's the deep breath that's actually relaxing. It is not. It is the letting go of the carbon dioxide. Right. So the more we can breathe out, the calmer our body becomes.

Wait a minute. Say this again, because that's. I just really heard that in a book recently too, and I was confused by that. So I would have thought that the in is the calming you down. You're saying it's the carbon dioxide going out that calms you down?

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Because when we hyperventilate, what happens? We breathe in shallow, and we build up carbon dioxide in our system, which actually makes us more heightened. Okay. When we take a nice breath in, but we exhale at least three seconds longer, you're pushing it out. You're releasing more and more of that carbon dioxide that has built up in your system when you got super anxious and you were shallow breathing.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay. What else can we do? So you mentioned the breathing, and that's. I think we all hear it. I think we make it more complicated than it needs to be. Like, a lot of people think they have to do this whole extensive breath work course or like. But just like you said, breathing in and breathing out longer makes a big difference. What other little tips do you have? Like that?

So I love. If you think about. I like to teach the 3M's mindset macros movement.

Okay.

All right. That's kind of.

Explain that.

All right, so mindset. Do something to two minutes. Do a mindset check. All right. What's your self talk like? What have you just said to yourself? I'm overwhelmed. Okay. What can you do about that? We can say inhale. Let's say pressure, exhale Peace. What do you need to change it to? Just change one word, right? So change your mindset. I've got this. Just give yourself a tiny mantra, something that's going to help you. When I speak to clients every day, they don't use. Use my mantras because mine might be different than yours. So just come up with a little. I've got this. Inhale, Peace. Exhale. Pressure. Whatever you're gonna. But that's your mindset tool. Macros. I said it before. Protein forward, always. If you can't think of anything healthy to eat throughout your day, pick some protein because that is going to help your mental health. Period. End of discussion. And then movement. Okay. Can't get the 30 minute workout in. I don't care. Walk around your house for two minutes. All I ask is that you reset two minutes. Two minutes mindset. Two minutes macros. Two minutes movement. Walk outside, sit in the sun for two minutes. Right. Put some cold water on your face. Some kind of movement. It's. It's like a bare minimum. Because when you're overwhelmed and you feel like you're paralyzed, we call it paralysis. I like to. I just feel paralyzed. When I'm overwhelmed, I get paralyzed. I choose to sometimes sit on a couch because I'm like, I don't know what else to do. And then I like to teach people this bare minimum strategy. Just pick one thing.

I love this. These three things. When you said movement, you combined it with a few other things that I think separate. Like you said movement. Like get outside. Like, to me, nature and sun and are huge. It's like a total own category.

I agree with you. I'm a hiker and I love being in the forest. Yes.

I know if I'm feeling any of those things, just getting myself outside makes such a big difference. Whether it's cold, hot, doesn't matter.

I agree with you. I was injured back in May and I couldn't work out at all. And all I did was sit on my front driveway. My neighbors thought I was crazy, but that's where I had my coffee because the sunshine made me happy. And that's exactly what it does. Even just feeling the warmth on your skin can brighten your mood. And, you know, forget about the fact that it gives you vitamin D and all the other great stuff that it can do for you.

Physiologically, how do you feel artificial light and EMFs are affecting us?

Well, we know it affects. You mean like blue light?

Yeah. Any of it. Like. Yeah, yeah.

We know that it affects our ability to sleep. I think it affects our brain. I think that it heightens us in many ways that we're not fully aware of. I'm a firm believer of putting your phone and all electronics down at least an hour before bed. And it's been one of the most wonderful changes I've made in the last four years. You know, picking back up reading. Yeah, Heaven.

You know, it's really interesting how a lot of wellness centers, gyms, like things that represent wellness. There's so much of the EMF and blue light, and when you have like these bright lights and they actually flicker, so they're way more intense than lights we had years ago. All of those are affecting our nervous system in such a dangerous way. And I feel that people are trying to counter it with more things that affect nervous system.

Well, I definitely don't. I don't. I work out at home. I don't go to gyms anymore because I just love my little space in the somewhat dark and watching my own little video.

Yeah.

Anything I can do to calm my entire system down is something that I'm for.

Yeah. It's funny. I have a gym I found that I absolutely loved in where I live in Phoenix area. I thought it was so cool when I first joined it, and then I ended up having to quit, and I've rejoined since, but I quit because I couldn't figure out why I would go in there motivated to work out, you know, and I would feel drained and overwhelmed when I was in there. And what I figured out was they had all their. Their windows closed. Like everything was dark like a cave. And they had all these neon lights and it looks cool, but I didn't realize how much that was affecting me. But I would notice. I'd get outside and feel totally different. And I actually literally quit my membership and told them why, and they now they've opened up the windows. They have it. Like just having the sunlight makes a difference.

Yeah, I think it really does. Yes. Yeah. I don't want to work out in a cave.

No.

With. No, I don't.

Yeah. I think sunlight is so important. When you talked about macros, you mentioned protein, but macros is more than that. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Yes, absolutely, I think. And again, I just came into this area five years ago when I went on my own midlife health journey. Understanding that each one of us has a unique breakdown of what our bodies need is paramount to midlife health and wellness, to anyone's health and wellness. But midlife women are who I typically work with. Understanding that our Bodies actually need carbohydrates after, you know, 30 years of being told I needed to be afraid of a banana is amazing. To have the energy with the right amount of proteins, carbs and healthy fats is a feeling that I wish for every single woman in midlife to understand, truly. Because I think way too many of us have, have lived way too long not understanding food.

When you hear somebody say they feel so amazing on like a carnivore or they're not doing the. More macros, what do you want them to know? Any, any feedback there? Because some people like really say, like, I feel so amazing this, but they're not doing macros.

I don't believe it. Well, I'm sad to say, and this could be polarizing, but I don't believe it. And I don't think that they've actually felt or understood the way to actually feed their body. And as a mental health professional, I would tell them you're on a very slippery slope because our brain needs all three carbohydrates to actually function at its most optimal state. And that includes with anxiety and depression and mental health. Right. So if your brain's not being fed carbohydrates, it's going to eventually give you trouble.

Yeah. I have a theory. I won't argue with people that love how they feel on Carnivore. I'm not going to argue with anyone. However, I do feel if we have anything underlying gut health problems or histamine issues, which I'll bring up again in a minute. When you cut out everything but protein, basically, and then you're getting rid of those triggers. But to me it's not fixing any. It's just making you not feel those symptoms. But long term, we're not necessarily fixing anything. That's just my belief around it.

Well, and I guess I would also wonder because maybe we don't have the actual science for that yet. But you may not, you may be feeling better, but we don't know what's actually going to happen.

That's true.

Ten, 15 years down the road if you continue that.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And my concern is not having fiber. I think we. Fiber is as important as protein.

That's huge for us.

Yeah.

I have a big.

I know you said this is something you, you haven't dove into, but I want to mention that I do think there is a huge connection with histamine and nervous system and cortisol. I can't prove it yet. I'm a project of one. But I will say completely cutting histamine from my diet, extremely, for a while. And then now really being on the lower histamine side has made a incredible amount of difference in my nervous system, like to the point where I just might be shouting it from a rooftop soon about histamine.

Well, you've influenced me, Natalie. I mean, I literally have been following you and I'm thinking to myself, should I be trying this, like, taking out more histamines of my diet? Because it's. There's something to it. I think there's something to it.

I actually, I wrote. It's like, funny. I wrote an entire book. I'm not ready to do anything with it yet, but I was. I was. So as I was learning, I was just deep diving this, and I just, I feel there's been too much talk about just adding ferments for, like, just people just adding fermented food, adding. Adding these high histamine foods. And I think it's contributing to a problem. So when I look at people saying things about oxalates or whatever, I used to kind of roll my eyes at it, but now I actually don't know that it's. That I think it's histamine that's been the issue in a lot of foods. And for those of you that don't know, like, leftovers are high histamine, like when you. When you cook a meal and then put it in and reheat high histamine. And I sort of figured this out during my hive outbreaks where I wasn't feeling good and I would make bone broth soup. So bone broth with chicken and like long stewing it. And I would get these horrible reactions and anxiety and I couldn't figure it out. I kept, well, I need more bone broth, I need more soup. And that. It was like the highest histamine thing I could have been eating. Right. So it took. I'm not saying it's an easy thing that everyone should do permanently, but wow. To the difference. Removing histamine foods.

Right? Right.

Yeah.

I think that's amazing.

Talk to us about what you want women to know, because I know we just talked about kind of a lot of information here, but someone comes to you, they're. They're feeling anxious, they're feeling depressed. Like, talk us through, like, sort of the conversation and what you want them to be doing.

Well, wow, That's. That's a loaded question. I. I've changed quite a bit in the 24 years that I've worked with folks. And when I got my, my certification in Integrative mental health, which was about four and a half years ago, I shifted to this new sort of mindset of it's all connected, right? So I was not trained. It's all connected, what you eat, how you move, your body and your mental health. This is fairly new and I would say in five years, new. And I practice, I think more deeply with midlife women because I've experienced the difference myself. I started eating the right things, eating protein, strength training instead of running marathons. And all of a sudden I don't have much anxiety anymore. Anxiety doesn't ever really go away, let's be clear. But I have it managed, right? And so I want women to understand they don't have to live with things that they are not happy with. That is what I want them to understand. And that there are fixes that don't cost a lot of money. There are fixes that if they just listen to the science and maybe try a couple of the small habits. You know, we've talked habit stacking a lot. That's another peak word. But just take a deep breath after you brush your teeth. Just habit, just one small habit that those habits do end up stacking up and that they can actually start to feel better.

Do you need a bunch of gadgets for nervous system or do you feel that.

No, you don't. You do not need to buy or purchase. You don't need, right? You don't need a weighted vest, you do not need a trampoline. You don't even need a red light sauna. But I want one, all right? So I want one. It's on my Christmas list. No, there are things you could do just with your own body, right? Even when it comes to like strength training, right? We talk about working out, do air squats, do push ups. You do not need a gym, you don't need a membership, you don't need something in your home. There are many, many, many things that you can do for yourself.

It's funny, I have a group thread of a bunch of my friends that are in the health space. Many of them are doctors and a lot of us have done a lot of the biohacking stuff. And one of the friends this morning asked in the thread, like, hey, I, I'm shopping for more biohacking stuff, like, what do you all recommend? And it was really interesting how most of us answered the same way and we said we're actually moving towards less stuff. Like, I know for me, I'm not saying I won't try other things, but the two Things I really do love is my hydrogen breathing and my infrared sauna. But it's a love. It's not a need. Like you said, it's a want. It's a love, not in need. But I said a lot of my other things, like, they're nice, but really where I feel my best are those things that are free. Like, literally, like walking outside, being in the real sun, sunrise, sunset, turning off EMFs. Like, just. Those are the things.

Those are the things. And again, when I was following your story with the hives and the histamines, seeing you just lay by the pool and read a book and put your phone down or whatever, again, as an influencer, as someone who has a. I mean, like, it was amazing because it reminded me that is what we all need to do every once in a while. Just put it away.

I. I will tell you that I have, like, literally changed my life the last few months going through this. And I. Most people are gonna go, well, that's lucky that you could do it. I. I can't do it, but I did it. I want to share this. If you look at my schedule right now, I have one. One work thing on there each day. That is it. Not 10, not 50, not even five, one. So if I have a podcast interview, it's one. It's one thing a day. One that is. It doesn't mean I don't work the rest of the day. It just means there's one have to. I canceled my biggest launch that I do every day.

Excited. I was your have to today, Natalie. Thank you.

No, I canceled, like, most of my income is my launch, right? I canceled it. Do I know how I'm going to fix that or figure that out or. No, but I know that that's what my nervous system and everything needs right now. And I know something's gonna come from this on the other side. But you didn't mention creating space. But I'm gonna say it's a have to. As much as taking people think, a prescription or what. It's literally a have to. For my survival and my sanity. I have to. So I would suggest, you know, something's interesting, too real quick. And I don't.

I don't.

I want you to share. But it's wild how when you do that on your schedule, just the most important things make it so, then what it does is it doesn't hurt you. It just takes away anything that wasn't that important.

That is correct. That is correct. And I wish that more and more and more people could understand Just exactly that reframe that you had. It's a have to. So many people make choices about maybe taking the pill because it's the quick thing or. And at the end of the day, if you just simply learn to prioritize what your body and your mind needs and what's most important to you. You know, we didn't even talk about boundaries, but that's a huge nervous system regulation. Let's talk about that.

Yeah, explain.

Yeah, I mean, like, boundaries is. They're not walls, right? They're just filters. They're filters that protect your peace. So many women feel like, no, I can't possibly say no, I can't possibly put that boundary up. And it's like, no, you actually have to put that boundary up like you did with your workday, because that is what's bringing you peace. So we talk about what I want other women to understand and know. That's another one. It is okay to say no. It is okay to prioritize yourself. You have prioritized everyone else, your entire being. I just put yourself on the same level. Stop putting yourself below with your work, of your family, of your friends. Just put yourself there and say, this is what I have to do.

Yeah.

For my health, for my happiness, for my nervous system, whatever it might be.

And trust me, if someone had told me that months ago, I would have been like, yeah, right. There's no way. But when going through what I went through, there was no way. I couldn't do that. So I don't want you listening to. Have to get to that point. Like, it has to be a priority. And it's. It's truly amazing. Like, the priority stuff will stay on the books, but you'll start saying no to things that really don't move the needle or aren't going to. Like, that aren't important.

Yeah. Or light you up. Like you were just about to say. I just feel like. Yeah. Like it's your time to figure out what lights you.

You up.

And if you can take the rest of it and put it down on the priority list a little bit, then you will feel a thousand percent better.

How important do you think therapy is for people? Because I know that's your sp. What you do, and you do other things too. But what.

How important.

Think everyone should be talking to somebody?

No, I do not think everyone should be talking to somebody. Do I think it would be useful for everyone? Yes, I do, 100%. I mean, I wouldn't have a job for 25 years if I didn't think That I think not everyone understands how to utilize it. Right. So we are trained to give you skills and to help you manage things, whether that's trauma in the past or current or grief and loss or anxiety and depression. But it is work. You are coming to us to do work. And that work is not easy. And it usually gets harder before it gets easier. So many people come to therapy, I think to see, say they come to therapy because it has become very okay, which is an amazing thing. We talk about it now a lot. But if you find yourself not making any progress in therapy, then it's because something is missing. Right. And maybe you're not doing the work that needs to be done. Maybe you're not with the correct therapist. I'm not, you know, not everybody is for me. I'm not for everyone. Other people you've got to go shopping around to find a good fit, help us understand.

I know this is going to be a very basic question to you, but I think it's an important one to ask the difference between a psychologist, a psychiatrist and then like a coach and just, you know, like a, like a life coach or whatever.

Yes, yes. Psychologist has a PhD in psychology, so clinical or counseling psychology. And we are able to have sort of our own practice, do our own thing, charge by insurance, things like that. Our degrees are very theoretical based and science based. A lot of research studies, a lot of empirical knowledge. A psychiatrist has gone to med school, so they have their MD degree. They can prescribe meds and then they did a specialty in psychiatric care. Right. So they work on inpatient units to get their residency done and then they can have their own private practice. But those are the people you would go to for medication, which they do therapy too, or some do. Some do most, I would say do 15 minute checks for meds only. They leave the counseling to the psychologists.

So it can be a team thing. So where you. If somebody is.

We always work as a team. Yes. So if we have a client who is working and needs medication, I will refer. They will refer to me if they feel like someone needs therapy. Medication is not cutting it. So it's very much a two way street.

And there's a ton of coaches. What do you think about that?

I just don't know enough about the life coaches. I think that the online space makes it very difficult because it's not regulated. So my son could call himself a life coach and there's nothing regulating that. Right. So I very much get leery. I do think that there are people out there who may have credentials. I just don't know about them.

Right. Well, this has been super helpful today. I love all this and I love that you kind of. You gave us this whole. You tied everything really into to nervous system and that it's not about going and having a million gadgets or doing things. It's about being. It's more mindfulness is what I heard, really. It's just being more aware.

And I want people to understand that you don't need to become more aware when something major happens. Right. So like you said before, I don't want you to go through what I went through. I want you to understand that these things are possible now. I wish more people could hear that because typically it happens after a medical diagnosis or after some kind of crises where they start to realize this stuff is important. And I so much want this society in general to start coming from a place of prevention, not reaction.

So good. Thank you so much. Where can people find you or learn more?

They can find me at Dr. K. Gravinowellness on Instagram. That's where I am. I'm on Facebook and Instagram there. I also have a website, but it's all the same thing at Dr. K. Gravinowellness.

And we'll link all that up in the show notes. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Natalie.