Communication & Technology: The end of authentic interactions?

If there's one thing you take from listening to this podcast right now, I.

Think that's pretty epic, because the thing.

That people don't realize with technology is.

How on earth are we going to teach computers this if we're learning it?

Okay, I'm going to argue on this. I'm not going to allow technology to eat up my time. I want to use technology for connecting with people, seeing what's going on in the world.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the yes And Podcast. I am your host and head of inspiration, Bunny Young. This podcast is all about taking a step away from the normal model of life. Having your cake, eating it, and getting the recipe with how to make the best cake, as well as delegating somebody to bake that cake for you. And that's one of the reasons that today, actually, I brought on one of my friends as one of my very, very first gu. I, like, I was thinking about how to, you know, introduce you. And first off, thank you for being one of our first guests on this yes. And Podcast. And for those of you listening at home in the car, whatever it is, on a cruise ship, in full transparency. Phil is one of my incredible business partners building this epic. The world's best coaching platform is definitely what I would say. But one of the things that drew me. I'm not a people person, but one of the things that drew me was our conversation. Our business partnership started on your podcast. And so I'm really excited to kind of share a little bit of that magic that hopefully we'll bring back from when we first recorded your podcast. And I think even the first conversation, like, Phil tests his guests out in, like, a private, you know, like, screening call. And he just did this 30 seconds before I hit the record button. And he did the same thing when we were talking. He's like, we should be recording this shit.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you guys get what you asked for? Phil manifested this. We're gonna. We're gonna record this.

You just get right into it. No, so the question I have is the. The. The title of your podcast. Yes. And. And that is an improv phrase. Is that right?

I didn't know that until we titled it that. And so, yes. And is like, my mantra for. It actually came. When you're training to be a therapist, if you tell me something, it's not professional for me to say. Yeah, but as a therapist. And so what we were trained to do is, well, some of us was to say yes and then offer, like, a different perspective and how I've carried that into my coaching is yes, this is reality and everything else is an option as well. And so that actually brings me to all's fair and love and war, because I get to ask you something is one of the things that I encounter a lot, and this used to be my M.O. is this in order to make more money, you have to work more. And so that would be a really good example of a yes. And because it's true in some cases and not your experience.

Okay, I'm going to argue with this on, on this. So because I'm not the host, I don't have to agree with everything that, that the other side says. I know that's one of the benefits of being the, the podcast guest. There's this, this thing that, that I had all my life where work account, you know, equated to money. Right. And I mean, I don't think that's very far fetched. We were raised that way. Right. And, and for the most part it's true. Especially when you're trading your time for money. You know, if you're hourly and you're, or you're charging hourly rates, you're literally trading your time for your, for your money. But over the years when I, when I started my own business and got into the entrepreneurial life, I was working and then I was telling my employees what I was doing and I was.

Like, what, what the.

Who? They don't care. Why am I telling them this? You know? And, and then I took it one step further and I said, why am I even doing this stuff? And it was because I had spent so many years where I'd have to validate to the boss or validate to the client what I was doing. That's interesting that I just had become ingrained in my brain that I needed to work for money. And I said no, the total opposite should be true. I should try to get as rid of as much of this stuff as possible because it wanted to forgive opportunities for my employees to do this work. It's more specialized and it allows me to have a macro view on my business if I'm pulled away a little, quite a bit more. And my personal belief in it is there's two things that happen. One, if you're working more, it's because you've trained yourself to do that over the years. You've equated time to money. And then I think there's another part to that which is inside you. You feel you've got to create work and it's closely related to the imposter Syndrome, it's all going to cave in, it's all going to fall in if you're not constantly working. So these people that spend large amounts of time away from their family or can't relax or can't take the weekend off, especially if you're an entrepreneur, like you're literally making your business, you're making the time. Why can't you have that separation? Because then at that point, if you're both creating your work and personal life, then now you're just prioritizing. And if you're prioritizing your money and work and all that stuff over mental health, family time, relaxation, if you're prioritizing all that stuff over it, then you're missing the point.

Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense to me. And my goal in just our minutes together is to get you to use yes. And not just in asking me what the podcast title is.

Well, do you know where I heard this from though? So I just read a book, it was about using improv strategies in normal conversation. And so it's interesting that you say that the way you described it because they, they recommend you do that with conversation as well. So that the converse, the, the purpose of interacting with other human beings is to encourage the conversation, include, you know, encourage the flow of it. And if you approach it from a yes and strategy, then you're gonna thrive in your conversation, your relationships. So that's where I heard that from.

So my only real improv experience is like watching Whose Line Is It Anyway? And if I remember that game correctly or that method correctly, it's to continue the conversation, which is exactly what the tool is used as a therapist. So for example, I'm not supposed to as a therapist ask you close ended questions like why or how because that shuts it down. And so being able to elaborate and continue that conversation and kind of open those questions a little bit more was the strategy there. And you're right, I have used it in human conversation. And I know we're going to talk about AI and computer conversation as well, because that's also something that's fascinating to me is I was literally trained how to speak to other humans in a compassionate manner when I went to school as a therapist. And to be able to be at that level where we're. And you just said you're reading this book about communication. I mean, we're not 20. And so to be at our level in both business and life and still be learning how to communicate with humans in a compassionate and respective and inclusive and insert a Bunch of other adjectives here is just so fascinating to me.

Yeah. And there's certain life skills, you know, we've talked about like wish in high school they, you know, or college they taught us how to manage a checkbook and you know, do our taxes and things like that. Communication is. And I didn't go on and get a degree for it, but through just basic school we didn't. We never really spent a lot of time just learning how to converse with other humans or how to appreciate a difference of opinion. Right. And it's only getting worse as we have social media and the Internet. That's all an echo chamber. And I don't think it's healthy. I don't think it's healthy for, for people or humanity. And me being in business and dealing with people all the time, I am constantly trying to, you know, sharpen my saw and look at different ways that I can improve my own communication. And, and that's through educating or groups like you know, toastmasters and things. How can I improve my communication? And I'm constantly learning how to do it. And for me that's exciting because the opposite of that is what just becoming stagnant. And you know, it all, you know, you know.

But you're absolutely correct in the aspect, you know, of what I just said is in, is false in a lot of ways of this kind of looking at it and being like, oh, we're adults and we're still learning how to communicate. I mean you think about five years ago, just wearable tech and where we've come in the past five years and then think about how we spoke 20 years ago as Americans. And like I grew up in Southern California and so every other word was like and dude. You know, I still say dude all the time. And I speak French, I speak Spanish, I do American Sign Language. And it's been a really fascinating thing for me to learn how cultures communicate. And so it's like learning another language and then learning this decades kind of language and then emojis, you know, how to text and communicate in that way. I remember when I first started doing therapy, I was working in a school for children on the spectrum and the adults having conversations about how to communicate with this, these children. And I was going to say like a subset of the population because in studying their communication and their language it's like they use this word, adults use this word of neurotypical and neuro atypical. However, it's another language and it's the way that the brain works. And I know I Don't have to tell you this, but it's like, I'm so fascinated by the aspect that I truly believe this direct manner of communication. I don't know that eye contact is efficient. And so as adults, encouraging these kids to make eye contact with adults, because that's what's respectful. That was what Maybe was respectful 50 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago. I don't know. I don't know what's right or wrong. However, I can tell you, not looking at you while I'm coming up with a thought tends to be more efficient for me. So it kind of makes me question of, like, who comes up with the right kind of communication? Because that right kind of communication is essentially what somebody is teaching a computer. And I know that with AI, we're collecting a lot of different kinds of styles of communication. I just remembered when I started, like, I take you back to that moment when I started working in that school of thinking like these adults. It appeared. I'm making an assumption, but it appeared as the adults were trying to educate the children on how to speak like an adult versus trying to enter into the way that their minds worked. And the communication that they already had with among themselves and with other adults who cared to, you know, step into their world was efficient, and it was masterful, and it was beautiful, and, you know, everything from their own version of sign language. It's just like, I think that the brain and communication, ultimately, if I'm not communicating with you, as you said with imposter syndrome, so, like, if I'm communicating with you authentically in, like, the bunny way, I can't really say that I'm neuro. Atypical. You're neurotypical, or vice versa or anything like that. It's me being me and communicating my needs. And obviously, I'm gonna adapt that communication if my needs are not met.

Yeah, yeah. One of the best quotes I heard that I. I continuously think about to this day, and I can't remember who. Who said it, but it was the meaning of my communication is the response I get. I reference that because based on how the person is receiving it, it can be taken different ways. And so I used to have a food delivery company, and we would do meet with different restaurant owners from all over the world. Sometimes they came from a part of the world where haggling was a norm, you know, and you'd be. We'd be in there, we'd be yelling at each other, basically. And then we'd sit down and eat together. And like, the best of friends. That's just the way they did business. Right. And then there was other restaurant owners who came from a part of the world where you. You speak less, you don't. You're not loud, you speak with more respect. And you had to change the tone based on who you were talking to, because if you try to talk to that second owner like the first one, he would absolutely want nothing to do with you. You know, in business. Now, obviously, those are cultural differences, but you talked about the spectrum. And my, My youngest is autistic, and the eye contact thing for him is very awkward. You know, it's very awkward for him. And I need to know how to communicate to my son to get the correct reaction. So in that case, it's kind of an extreme. But, you know, part of what I was talking about before with having an echo chamber and that is we assume that everyone is thinking and acting and communicating the same way as we are, and they're not. Everyone's communicating in different languages. So that's why I think when I reference back to the meaning of my communication as a response, I get that response or feedback loop may not be what I had intended, and I may have to adjust to communicate in a method that that person is familiar with.

Exactly. And is it okay to go into. Because my mind immediately thinks about how on earth are we going to teach computers if we're learning it?

That's true.

And so can we jump in AI?

You want to jump into AI? I don't know. We get into some nerd talk here. You know, with computers and technology, there's, there's. There's a couple sides to it. There's. There's some, some people that are just blown away by it and amazed and can't wait to see what's going to happen. And there's the other side that is freaked out by it. Right? Like, is it going to take jobs? I mean, it could. There's even talks like, hey, like a therapist, like you, like, is it going to take jobs? Right. Content writers, a lot of the, A lot of those things, you know, is it going to take. Take jobs away? Well, I watched a, an advertisement and it was, I mean, it was, it was incredibly sexist because this was from years ago. Right. But it was talking about, you know, a washer and dryer, know, like the actual machines came out and, and this, this was early on, right. So the guy was like, well, what is my wife going to do? You know, the washer and dryer is doing everything, you know, and stuff like that. Right. And, and then, you know, fast forward to computers, right? Computers came out in the Internet and, and all that and robots and all these things, and, and people were really concerned that they were going to take their jobs and, and replace them and all that. But the opposite is true. When each one of these things came out, it created new opportunities, created new jobs. We, as the United States went from being agriculture to being industrial, to moving into a completely different direction now. And I don't know what the future holds specifically, but I think it's amazing, and I think it's going to afford more opportunity, more jobs, more opportunities for people that never existed. We're going to move at a much faster rate, potentially solve problems like, you know, disease, cancer, famine, things like that at a much faster rate. Because the thing that people don't realize with technology is they think technology is linear. And so what I mean by that is one plus one plus one plus one plus one, it's moving at that rate. But if, you know, Moore's Law or anything around technology, it's actually exponential, right? So it'd be. Instead of like 2 +2 +2 would be 2 times 2 times 2. It's exponential. So it's up at the rate. Or 2 times 2 times 4 times 8. You get the point. So it's moving at a much faster rate. What's that?

I wanted to see how far you can.

How far I could go with that. So the point is that technology is moving faster, and as we create new technology, it allows us to create better technology. To allow us to create better technology. So now that we're. We're at the threshold where AI is getting really, really good, you're going to see new AI developing at a faster and faster and faster rate. It's inevitable.

Okay.

Slightly terrifying, but also inevitable. And so we're at a point in our life where in 10 years, it's going to look nothing like the previous 50 years of our life, because we're going to move at a much faster rate.

Okay. So the second part of that fear is that we're going to be more disconnected as humans.

Yeah. Facebook was trying to, you know, put together this meta thing, the metaverse, Right. And it was a flop. They've been trying to do something similar to that for a really, really long time. And I. I personally believe that we as humans need contact, we need touch, we need other humans. And there's fads, there's new things that come up. Obviously, social media, you know, was. It was a big fad. The Internet was a big Fad. And there's things that can become addictions for us, but we. We can't say that those are the new norm or that society. And personally, in the future, I hope that when mental health services catch up to technology, they will treat social media addiction and some of those things as what they are, addiction. And that is not a life. You know, that's not a life. And I think future society will look at it just like a drug or alcohol and say that it should be done in moderation at set times. And so when we think about where we're at right now, we can look at where we have brief moments, like what happened during COVID right? So everyone was kind of separated from each other, and then suddenly things opened up again. People couldn't wait to see faces again, couldn't wait to get to parks, couldn't. Couldn't wait to travel again. Right. Couldn't wait to visit their relatives. That is human, and that's the most important component right there that people are missing. And so being somebody who's an avid techno enthusiast, and I love technology and all that, I do not feel it can replace the human connection anytime soon because there's just something we need. Like even right now, we're on this call together. I love the fact that our cameras are on and I could see your eyes and we're staring at each other's faces. That's really, really important to me. And I don't see that going away any anytime soon.

I think my belief on it is that we can use technology to be more connected. I see the point that's being made. And to your statement about social media addiction, like, as a therapist, the addiction is to the engagement. So the likes, it's like giving your self worth, basing your self worth on likes, on comments on engagement, on that kind of stuff, and needing more and more and more, like building up a tolerance where you need more and more and more in order to feel a certain way. And there's a lot of different avenues that we could go down with that. However, if we didn't have the technology that we have, I would never have been able to connect with you. I can't say I would never because I don't know. You know, your wife's in the horse world, and so I don't know what would have happened. If it was meant to be, would it be? It would have been. However, this has been more efficient. I mean, think about it. We have not been in the same room with each other, and yet we have produced two epic podcasts we have created a business that's going to help millions of coaches and millions of people find coaches. And so that would not have been possible in this necessary, like in this manner necessarily without technology. So I believe my biased opinion is that we can use technology to actually be more connected. And Covid was a really good example of that with so many people now learning how to use Zoom and it opened up being able to connect with people all over the world. So that's my bias opinion on that. And I also think in moderation, of course, and it's the intention when I open up. This is like a little bit of homework. You'll have to let me know how this goes. And for those of you listening, you can put it in the comments, but being able to pick up your phone and state what you're going to do with it. So I'm going to call Phil, I'm going to check telegram and message back for five minutes. I'm going to open Instagram and check my messages for five minutes. And just stating that intention after five minutes, it kind of you really get a reality check on. Did you do the thing? That's my little science experiment for you.

Yeah, absolutely. I would say if there's one thing you take from listening to this podcast right now, one piece of advice that I will give you. Delete the social media apps or turn off the notifications on them. I do not have anything that dictates my time or encourages me to look at it. I access my social media at predetermined times for myself because if I have notifications going off, then I'm constantly looking at that thing and that thing is training me to look at it. And like we talked earlier on about, you know, the importance of time and spending with my family and not trading my time for money and continuing down that route. Well, it's the same thing with technology. I'm not going to allow technology to eat up my time. I want to use technology for connecting with people, seeing what's going on in the world, the same way that I would with picking up a newspaper or watching the news. I'm predetermining the amount of time that I'm going to dedicate to that. The problem with having notifications turned on on your phone is you're allowing that thing to train you what you want to look at. And they have algorithms that are set up to get you to look at that thing constantly. The post the titles, all that stuff is constantly getting you addicted. Turn off the notifications, delete the apps. You can access it through your phone browser if you, if you want to access social media and that sort of thing. But everything. Facebook, Instagram, and Now we have TikTok, which is probably the absolute worst. They're all trying to pull your time and, and, and get your eyeballs to stare at a screen longer.

You know, I've never been on TikTok.

I've never been on Tick Tock either. Let's.

There we go.

It's Chinese spyware.

You've just made this podcast unpostable.

Really? Was that bad? It is, though. I mean, that's, that's not even, like, up for debate. It legitimately is. Like, the US Government will not allow their employees to have Tick Tock on their phones. I know, because it's tracking you across the apps. Like, this isn't a conspiracy theory type thing. It is, it's fact. I, I don't, I don't know what else to say about it. If you don't believe me, do some research on it. Read the. Read what? You're giving access to Tick Tock inside the terms of an agreement. When you accept it. I mean, if you don't believe me. But that's the ms, aside from the addiction component of it, you know, that's certainly a reason not to have Tick Tock on your phone as well.

So it's safety, you know, all of those tracking and the permissions and all of that. We talked about wearable tech, and I just think about the amount of, like, now I have devices where I can't even turn the Bluetooth off. And so that's like a whole nother conversation. Yes. And it'll be really interesting when we did a call to action for where people can connect with you. But I have one more question for you that I thought would be kind of cool for you and I to do this, because one of the projects that you and I had talked about in the AI space, and this is really special for me, is the ability that we can train software to give you answers as if I was answering them. So whether it's as a therapist or as a coach or just as the Bunny Young brand, we could train an AI software to answer questions in my personality, with my knowledge. And that part for me is really special because having multiple heart conditions and a brain injury, I think it would be amazing to be able to serve a multitude of people. I mean, if I think about it, it'd be like you sitting down at the computer and getting a coaching session by just being able to ask that software questions. So am I understanding that correctly first before I ask the follow up question?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yep. So OpenAI's version of Chat GPT, they're training it with different personality types. So you may think you're getting a random personality type, but on the back end they're actually training it with different personality types that, based on the, the input that they're scoring it with. So. Yeah, yeah.

So we can basically put my box or my brain into a box for the better service of the world.

It'd be close. I mean it won't, it'll be you for, at a certain point in time, let's say. But you're ever changing, ever developing, hopefully you're ever developing and that's what makes us human. So that's the point.

So the question is, and, and this could be. Because now we know that they've, this is mind blowing to me that they've created AI for certain characters as well. So if you could have access to a conversation with a character, a person, an animal, whatever it is through that AI software, like which one would you build and why? This will be our last, our last question.

So like any character, historical anybody, and why. Oh man, that's a good one. I just, being a nerd like Nikola Tesla would be an amazing one to just kind of pick his brain. He was one of those individuals that was so ahead of his time and the way that he thought and just spurred ushered us into the 20th century. I would love just to hear how he talks. You know, I, I, when I listen to people and interviews and I see people talking, I can usually get a pretty good idea of how that person is and I try to see myself in their, in their shoes. Some people I'm unable to do that with, especially if they're way off in left field. But I don't know, I just can't. I, I'd love to see how that guy like talks, how he thinks, how he interacts, how he looks at situations and learn a ton from that. And, and, and that's probably somebody that I would, I'd be really fascinated at learning from.

Yeah, I think that's pretty epic. So I, I don't have like a historical figure. I have really selfish, but also really personal. The conversation that I'd ultimately like, want to build, to be able to have is with my grandfather. Like he's the original entrepreneur in my life and there are so many times I lost him in 2010 and there are so many times where I just want to ask him a question or I just Want like to hear his feedback about a certain business situation or a family situation. Like he's just that ever constant presence in our family. In fact, when he passed away, it's like you kind of notice, I don't know if this has happened to you, like with a family member, but you kind of notice how the family just wasn't as close anymore. Like he, he held everybody together. So having that guidance would be something that. And I feel like I have his endorsement on everything that I do. But that'd still be great to be able to open up a window and just, you know, have a window to heaven, I guess.

Right. I get it. Yeah. I mean, a lot of our aging population, you think about the people with knowledge around, you know, World War II and turn of the century, all that kind of stuff, and we're losing a lot of that. And as years go by, we, we lose these encyclopedias of information as time progresses. And I love, love talking with old people. It's. Honestly, if you've, if you find me at a party or something, I'm with one of the oldest guys in the room or women in the room and just chatting with them because these are history books and like I said, encyclopedias and things that we're going to lose and we understand the. How precious life is and the, the memories and the, the resources and the things they have are so precious. And we, we want to hold on to things forever, but they're not. And you know, take that moment to spend the time with the people and they want to tell the stories too, is the thing. They all do. Yeah, but we don't think that it applies to what we do today. I have this book that I got from an antique shop called. I think it's called, it's just called Success. I think it is. And it's, it's a, it talks about in the, in the 19th century, all these entrepreneurs that had done all these amazing things and attract their life and stuff that they did. I was reading one about this guy who bought a, like a meat packing plant or something like that, and it walked through what he did to make it profitable and, and, and all that. And I took a business idea from that in, in the digital age and made it happen. And it was successful and you know, we turned it into a very profitable, great business. And basically what he was doing was taking waste from this meat packing plant and finding a way to use that to make a product out of. And it was kind of just simple things that kind of triggered it. But this was from Long time ago, these people couldn't even imagine the age that we're in today. And I'm learning and taking advice from that. And so I would say there's. There's a ton of resources out there. Take the time to have those conversations with those people, because we don't have them forever. So.

Yeah, and pick up a book. I mean, we talked about the AI aspect of it, but honestly, books are that, you know, brain translation into a book. And I think it was Lex Friedman who. I was listening to him and he was saying, like, all the majority of my best friends are dead because he spends so much time reading and just in these books and in that information. And so, you know, I've heard people say, like, how much they would pay for or what they would do in order to get into a room and have a conversation with these people. And it's like if they've written a book. And it's also kind of an encouragement for me to capture your story, you know, as, as no matter how minimal you think it is, there's lessons. Like you're here for a reason. You have lessons, you have learnings, you have experiences. And I'd love it if everybody wrote a book and I'd love it if everybody started reading more. I think that'd be awesome.

I agree with you. There's. If there's a couple things that you can do to have what I would identify as successful life. And to be clear, success doesn't necessarily mean money, monetary success. I mean, just to have a great life. And the two habits, one would be exercising on a daily basis and then the other one would be reading. If you can continuously read, educate yourself, you will have an enjoyable, successful life because you're always challenging what you know now. Yeah. And that's exciting.

I think that's part of the 75 hard. If I'm not mistaken, it's like 2:45 minute. Have you heard about this movement? It's like 75 days and we'll have to look it up and then discuss more. And when you're listening to this, you can put the clarification in the comments, but I think it's two 45 minute exercises a day for 75 days. And then I think you have to read 10 pages and there's two other things that are part of it, but it's a whole movement. There's an app, I think for it. It's called 75 hard. So. All right. Yes. And so for people that want to learn more from you, where is the best place to connect to, kind of get a peek into your learnings and your insights.

Yeah, absolutely. So I love talking with people in general. I am an entrepreneur, but I will help people out wherever I can just because I think that's a responsibility as humans. If you want to track me, Philportman.com has links to majority of my sites. My my podcast, which is Successes Podcast. We interview successful people from all over the world from different backgrounds. Hedge fund managers, entrepreneurs, stunt women, authors all over the place. And so you follow my podcast or you can find me on any one of the social media platforms, just look up Phil Portman and and you'll find me.

Awesome. Phil, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for what you do in this world and for not just being my friend, but also just being an incredible asset to everybody's life that you're a part of. So I appreciate it.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Bunny.

Thank you to everyone at home or on the go for listening and bringing me with you wherever you are. If you find this show helpful, which of course you do, please hit that Follow or Subscribe button. Share it with somebody that you care about because it will improve their life as well. This does wonders for the show so more people can find the yes. And podcast organically. If you have any questions about anything that we've talked about, please drop me a line below this podcast video or actually DM me on Instagram and I read every DM that I get and send me episode ideas, send me guest recommendations, send me just a note about how this show impacted you, what you want to hear more of. Just let me know that you're out there. I love having conversations. I'd love to hear from you again. This is Bunny Young with your yes and podcast. I will see you on the next episode.