How to Sell With Confidence Even With Imposter Syndrome w. April Palmer

What if I told you you have to get 20 nos to get to a yes, but you're guaranteed to get to yes on 21? How quickly would you cycle through those nos?

Welcome back to the Yes And podcast. I am your host and resident serial entrepreneur and Yes And advocate of the Yes And podcast. How many times can we say that in like the first 10 seconds of this episode. And today I have a special guest because I have brought one of my friends who has such an incredible and amazing life and journey in order to get here. And she's an open book. So not only are you going to laugh, we may cry a little bit. We are gonna learn a lot about ourselves, a lot about sales, a lot about business, and a lot about life. So without Without further delay, I'm bringing you April Monkey Hat Palmer.

Oh my God, I feel like your mouth just wrote a whole bunch of checks that I can't cash.

Yeah. So that's, that's no, no pressure.

Oh, no, no, no.

We can start with the fact that last night I came and spoke to your class at VCU and you made this a very similar introduction that I was like, oh, this, this night is going to be really interesting to all of these Masters kids in in business, well, in entrepreneurship. And I was like, all right, so we have completely different backgrounds, but we also have this non-conventional track. And so we met at a speaking event, and in the process of practicing for that speaking event or coming up for that speaking event, we went on a date to an amazing restaurant that we're going to actually tomorrow night.

Yes.

And you wore the most ridiculous monkey hat.

I wear that monkey hat all winter long, every year. It's my favorite thing in the world.

And you also, you ran into the restaurant in the monkey hat and shared with me why you were late.

Jesus. I rear-ended someone on the way, which was absolutely ridiculous. And then I was like crying because I didn't wanna tell the guy I was dating at the time that I had Rear-ended somebody on the way to go. It was just like the whole thing was fucking ridiculous. Oh wait, are we cursing?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

And jinx.

Now we have to count to 10 and I have to touch you within the 10 seconds or else like I can't talk and then it's just going to be an awkward podcast episode.

I feel like it's you owe me a Coke at Yaya's tomorrow. Okay.

All right. Fair enough. Also, like, let's drop this little factoid for everybody listening. Since we can clearly hear that I'm totally out of breath because there's a human crushing my lungs, April is going to be my stand-in doula. On top of everything else that she's got on her plate, she is going to come down and help me birth Malibu in about a month and a half, which feels exciting and terrifying at the same time.

Oh my gosh. I'm so excited for it though. Like, I'll never forget the first baby that I ever caught. And like, it's, there's a, there's a moment being in the room while this new human with so much potential is like making their way into the world and just being able to look at that little life and go, what are you gonna do? Like, who are you going to bring joy to? Where's your sunshine going to lie? Like, I don't know. It's such a fun, amazing moment in time and not a lot of people get to experience that. And so that, like, you know, that aren't like actually pushing a child out of their own hoo-ha, which is—

thanks so much for that—

not a great time to sit and like revel in the joys of what this what the potential for this human is. Yeah.

Yeah. We're going to, we're going to see about that. So updates on that coming soon in approximately 2 months. Ah, I told Steve last night, I was like, I'm at the place in my pregnancy where I'm like, oh crap, this has to come out of me. Like I've grown this and the bigger it gets, the more terrifying this is now becoming.

Yes.

So from what I know, You were a nurse in Germany.

It's not in Germany. So I went to college in Germany and then I came back to the States and I couldn't get a job because nobody believed it was a real degree, which was kind of crazy. Like I was in Pennsylvania and it just wasn't, it was culturally like not, didn't make sense. So I worked. As a 911 operator, third shift while I went to phlebotomy school during the day. And then I worked as a phlebotomist, third shift while I went to medical assisting school. And then I worked as a phlebotomist and a medical assistant, third shift while I went to healthcare administration school and then eventually nursing school. And then I immediately left when I got divorced while I was pregnant with my youngest child to go sell packaging equipment and supplies and like contract packaging, diving into the sustainable, like logistics world that had nothing to do with anything that I had any type of background in at all whatsoever. But I needed to do something that allowed me to be more flexible to take care of my kids because I was moving to Boston. As a single mom with no money and no child support. And I have a theory about how I can make these like weird kind of big shifts in my life is I'm just too stupid to know that I can't be successful.

Like, you're not stupid. Like, I'm okay with everything in that sentence except for you're not stupid.

I'm not stupid in like a stupid, like, I just like, I literally, I'm so delusional about the world and like my ability to do things that there's just this assumption that it will all turn out okay. Like I'm just too dumb to know that I can't. And so I'm smart enough to do the things and I'm totally okay with that.

Like, where does that come from though? Because you've shared with me a little bit about like you had a very traditional childhood and like very traditional parents. It's not like you had parents that were like, from what you've shared with me, that were like, you can do anything in this world. Like, you know, I mean, they're super supportive and they love you, but it wasn't like when you decided to go to college in Germany, that was really out of the box for your parents and for the community that you grew up in. So like, where did this come from?

Yeah, I mean, it was very much a like, wait, what kind of moment whenever I said it to people. But yes, my parents were incredibly supportive. They, any kind of crazy scheme that I came up with, they went along with it, even though, you know, they had no idea the way that my brain worked. I really truly believe— I've teased my parents about this for years and given them a lot of shit, but we didn't have TV growing up. Like, my parents got a TV when they got married in 1975, '76, '75, I think. And we still had that TV when I graduated from high school in 1997. It had 6 channels. You had to like turn the thing. It had a coat hanger antenna on it. Like, and I know I don't say that word right, but antenna is the closest that I can get to it. Um, it's fine. That's my, that's my Hick coming through. But a thing that they did was they used what very little money that we had to take us to the bookstore on a regular basis and buy my brother and I as many books as we could read. And I would read my book and my brother's book and both of my parents' books every week. Like, I read everything I could get my hands on. And I really truly think that reading, especially fiction— I'm a big historical fiction fan, so that kind of goes with it too— but I think that reading fiction allows you to live lives that you haven't and like teaches you things and gives you confidence in your ability to go on adventures and survive and thrive. It did for me at least. So like my best friends growing up were the, the main characters in the books that I read. And I would imagine myself like I was there with them, right? Or that I was in their place doing that thing. And so then as I got older. It was just like I was kind of living my own book, right? I was the main character of my story. And you can't have a really engaging fictional story without, you know, strife and conflict and battle and adventure and, you know, like all, all of these things, your sidekicks and whatever. And so I just, I feel like that I have, and I continue to build that, like my own novel series for myself. And that's, that's what makes it possible.

I think as long as I've known you and from everything that you've shared, you never stop learning. Like you probably have more certifications, degrees, endorsements, and It's— you use all of it and none of it.

Exactly. Yes, 100%. I—

that's the definition of yes and.

I am so hungry for new information and new perspectives and new ways of thinking all the time. And the thing that I love the most is figuring out that kind of puzzle moment where it's like, how do these fit together with what I already have and how can I connect dichotomous information in interesting ways that other people don't think about, right? And so that for me is just a really fun puzzle that I am kind of always doing with my, with my ADHD brain.

Yeah.

And it works.

Cause a lot of people get degrees and certifications for permission. To do something in their life.

Mm-hmm.

You're— that's not your motivating factor.

Mm-hmm.

So how do you decide when you want to go?

I don't. I mean, I spend a lot of time on like MasterClass, LinkedIn Learning, just picking up books and leafing through them and picking up— my favorite thing is just to pick up a random book and like zing through it and be like, ooh, That's an interesting fact or thought that I'd never thought of. And I just like close it and put it back. I can do that in 5 minutes and never pick up that book again, but take that thing and connect it to something else that I have. And then for me, one of the things that, that makes me tick is I'm a very, very competitive person. Like I'm the most competitive person. That's how competitive I am. No, just kidding. Um, I'm a very competitive person. But I don't strive to be the person who gets on stage and gets the award for winning the thing. Like, that's not something that motivates me. What motivates me is looking at all of the people around me. It's one of the reasons why I teach. It's one of the reasons why I love sales actually, is because I can look at all of the people I interact with and point to their success and be like, oh, I had a hand in that. I helped with that. And so a huge part of what I do with the certifications and the learnings and all the things I do is I hold that until I meet the right person who needs to know it. And then I'm like, I like regurgitate it and like hand it to them. I'm like, here you go. Here's this piece of knowledge that I've had in my brain that I've been holding for you since I was 12 years old, and now you have it. And like, chances are I may never pull out that piece of information again at all. I might even forget. That I knew it at one point because I put it in the hands of the right person and then I get to watch them take that and do something with it. And that for me is what drives me all day, every day. It's the most fun.

So do I have permission to change gears for a little bit and take it a little closer to home?

Of course.

Having and working with clients, specifically entrepreneurs, I've noticed that that coming from a business background and a therapy background, a lot of them will come to me and say, well, I have, I have ADD, I have ADHD. And so, you know, my brain loves strategy and it loves putting the pieces in place and organizing them. And what I find with those clients that come to me and say that that's just not the way their brain works or that they're struggling with ADHD, it's like they're experiencing and reporting not— it never being enough and feeling that sense of overwhelm. And so not that you have to have ADHD in order to struggle with these two things or feel these two things. I'm just curious in your decades of reading and life experience with all of this, and even just right now, I mean, you have your position, you have your company, you have your board position with Posible, you have your teaching position with VCU, you have your mom position. Like, I, I don't wanna say, you know, how do you do it all? I wanna say, how do you live in your mind with ev— all of your responsibilities? And how do you know it's enough and feel satiated to lay your head down at night and have peace?

Um, the shorter answer is I don't. I still struggle with that despite the fact that I have made some significant leaps in growth with that over the last couple of years. So let's start with the enough question because that one I think also lends itself to the imposter syndrome conversation that, that I talk about often. Um, I have crippling imposter syndrome, which is really funny considering what I said earlier, which is like, I also just don't have the ability to realize that I can't do things. So that's a battle in my brain all the time. And I spend so much time going like, I don't have the skillset, the background, the certifications, the experience, the, you know, whatever it is to do this thing. And then my brain also goes, but fuck it, how hard can it be? And then I go do the thing, right? And I've struggled with that for a lot of years. I still struggle with it, but not nearly as much. And here's why, because I made the decision at some point in the last couple of years, and it wasn't like a ding, ding, ding, like the light bulb went off. It just started to kind of happen for me where I decided that I wasn't going to mask. Anymore. Like, if you don't like me, who I am, the skill sets that I have, what I bring to the table, then fuck right off. Boom, problem solved. And if you do, then I'm not going to apologize to you for the fact that I am a hot mess. Like, I will apologize if I hurt your feelings or if I fall down on something, like, whatever, right? Like, But I'm not going to apologize to you for the fact that I am built the way that I am because I bring something really special to the table that other people don't. Is it what I always think that society expects me to bring? No, like not even close. And one of those things for me is executive function. I have no executive function skills. None at all whatsoever. That being said, every couple of— nah, about once a month or so, I buy myself a new notebook thinking that, you know, like this is going to be the notebook that saves my life and makes me organized. And spoiler alert, it's not ever. Like, whatever. I always feel like I should be able to not only have a great idea to help somebody, but also then be able to tell them or show them how to execute on it and actually do that thing. And the fact of the matter is that I can't. I cannot. And so I've started learning how to outsource that. I've started learning how to set better expectations for that. And when I set better expectations for that, what I find is that I have to remind people over and over and over again, like, I told you this.

I—

this is the expectation that I set because people also tend to have a higher expectation of what I can produce because of the level of kind of intensity and expertise that I give off, right? So they're like, obviously she's just like downplaying her skill set to build some sort of operational efficiency. No, I'm not. I'm not lying to you. Who was— there was somebody who said— was it Toni Morrison or Oprah or somebody who said, um, when somebody shows you, tells you who they are, believe them?

Yeah.

Yeah. So that's the, that's the era that I'm in now. Today is I will tell you who I am, and as long as you believe me, then we will all be in a really good spot. If you don't believe me and you think that you know better what it is I'm going to bring to the table, it will paralyze me. I will assume that I'm disappointing you and I will completely shut down, shut off, and remove myself from it. I call it turtling, like I go into my shell and then I just worry about it. Then I just sit and have anxiety about disappointing people. And so I've started to have like really, really strongly worded, firm conversations about like, this is who I am, this is what I bring to the table. And in doing that and being very, very true to my authentic self and who I am, what I found is that I feel those feelings of not like being enough less and less often and in fewer situations, which means that I'm happier. I'm less stressed, I have less anxiety, and the people I'm working with or helping or talking to also are happier with the outcomes because they know what to expect and they can fill in the blank on other side where I can't actually do the thing.

How often do you have those conversations in the mirror?

Oh, all the time. When you say like, how do you lay your head down at night in peace? Like, No, I like replay the conversations all the time going, did I set the right expectations? Did I do this right? Is it going to be enough for them? Are they still going to like me if I can't do those things? I have them all the time. I just have to remind myself that I'm in what I call my HOE phase, which stands for happiness over everything. HOE phase, right? Stands for other things too.

I love that. Let's do it. Yeah.

I'm also in that phase. Like I'm in the other definition of that HOE phase at this time too. And I'm so I'm totally okay with that also. But what I find is that I just remind myself, right? Like, I, I am in my HO phase and part of putting happiness at the center of everything that I do is having these conversations, allowing myself to worry about them. Like, that is how I am built. I'm okay with it. It doesn't make me a, a bad person or an incompetent person or a whatever to have anxiety about this. It just means that I care. And caring is my superpower. So it is what it is. Like, I just don't beat myself up. I don't excoriate myself anymore for having these feelings. I just own them and I sit with them. Sometimes I wallow in them, right? Like if I'm sad about something I did or upset with myself because I, I didn't meet the expectations I set, I will wallow in it like a pig in shit. Like I'm like, oh yes, I was horrible. And then once I get past that, then I'm like, what am I not going to do again in the future so that I don't have to sit in this? I don't just like brush them under the rug and go, oh, you shouldn't be feeling that bullshit. You should— feelings are there to feel. Do it.

Absolutely. We're gonna have to put the definition of that word in the show notes. Excoriate. Just, just for everybody else.

Just think like an SOS. Are SOS pads still a thing?

It was an SAT word for sure. Like that was a full like $3 word.

Yeah. I always think of it like an SOS pad. Right. But if you like put your feeling on it, like, like low self-worth on a, on a scouring pad and just like scrubbed it all over your body. Like that's what we do to ourselves sometimes.

It's not good.

Yeah. Don't rub yourself with a scouring pad.

So I wanna bring that conversation home to something that you're very, very good at, which is sales. And it's something that we talked about last night and we have this in common in our businesses where it's like, yes, of course you can tell me no in sales and you're welcome to come back and pay double later. And when you shared what you just shared, how do you kind of justify that with yourself with sales and go through imposter syndrome in a sales conversation? Because externally, that's not something that anybody would know about you unless you had shared it here. And internally, being your friend and being in your life, I know that that's something that you project out and then occasionally will question later, but the percentages are like 98% confident, 2% questioning, and occasionally it's like 99.7%, 0.03% questioning. A really good example of like how you even manifested your current position is like you are semi-unemployable as well.

And so unemployable, my— I don't even have a resume, but what I sent, which is like my speaker sheet, has the word fuck in it 7 times. And I like, I took it out because I was like, listen, if you can't see it in my resume, then you're not gonna want to hear me say it. And I say it all the fucking time. So like Yeah, if you don't— if you can't accept that part of me, then I don't want to work for you.

And you're sitting at tables selling multi-million dollar opportunities. Like, there's more commas than most people will see in their lives. And you do it externally so confidently. And so for audience members listening that are like, I, I want to have her level of confidence in sales, can you give a little behind the scenes on how you live with imposter syndrome and are just a fucking badass when it comes to sales.

Yes. For me, this is like— I know nothing is ever easy, like I could say straightforward, but for me, this is the easiest justification ever— is I approach every single sales conversation with the level of curiosity that killed the cat. Like, I, I walk in so curious about what are you doing? Why are you doing it? Who are you doing it for? Who else is involved? Is it shareholders? Who are the stakeholders? Like, whose performance review does this go on? It's one of my best questions that I ask. Is this on your performance review? Is your, is your promotion or your take-home pay tied to this? If not, whose is? What is important to them? What do they need to achieve? And at the end of it, one of two things happens. Either I can honestly say to them, yeah, I think we've got a really good fit for you and here's why, and here's what it's going to cost, and here's a great business justification for it. You know why it's great? Because I've asked every question that you could fucking think to ask, right? Or I look at them and say, you know what, we could help you, but I just don't think that there's a justification for the price. So here's all the information that I know for free. Do with it what you will, but I don't think that you should hire us. And I'm not going to take you on as a client because we only bring on clients who we can turn into raving fans. And I just don't think that you would be a raving fan at the co— at the— price that we have to deal with. I turn away more clients than I ever bring on for engagements with the Duckbill Group. I also give away a ton of free information in those processes. Like, I don't gatekeep. If we're going through an assessment for a cli— a future client to see if they're a good fit and they're not a good fit, but my team says, but I do think that they could probably save, you know, 5% off their bill. By optimizing their data transfer costs in this kind of area, I will literally take that back to the client and say, or the non-client, and say, hey, like, you can't work with us, but here's a free 5% savings. It's great. Um, on the other hand, and I do say this a lot, where clients will say, we can't justify that cost regardless of the fact that you've given us a business case for it that makes sense, that we agree with, but we're just not going to pay you much, we're gonna do it ourselves, or we'll hire somebody else. I say, that's fine, I'll see you in 6 months to a year, and it will cost double. And the reason why it costs more is not because I'm a bitch, and it's not because I'm snarky or I hate them for not buying from me. It's because damage control and cleanup is significantly harder than doing it right the first time. And So if they come back and they've made some progress, but they haven't totally fucked it up, I'm not going to charge them double. I'm going to charge them the right amount, right? If they've come back and they've totally fucked it up, I'm going to charge them the right amount. And that means that it takes more resources, more time, more digging, those types of things. And you have to pay for that. Full stop. We have a ton of value. And so that's how I justify that. Um, none of that hits my imposter syndrome at all whatsoever because all of it is rooted in very, very sound business kind of background and strategies. Where I feel like that imposter syndrome hits me is like, am I supporting my client in the way that they need to be supported so that when this does show up on their performance review that their boss is saying, hey, not only did you achieve that, but you also achieved it in a way that, um, really took into account the internal politics within the organization, or like helped someone else to achieve their goals, or those types of things. And that's where I spend a lot of time, a lot of angst going, am I interacting with this person in a way that supports them in more than just checking this project off the box. And again, like, that's because I care. But if you look at my CRM, like, my CRM entries, I will tell you that my imposter syndrome comes in there because, like, any, like, really good salesperson— documentation, not my strong suit at all. Executive function doesn't exist.

I wanted to ask you about the nos. So I've had this conversation at the Hawaii retreat and people taking nos personally. I'm like, I celebrate the fuck out of nos.

Oh my God, I love nos. They're the best thing ever.

Why are they the best thing ever?

Okay. First of all, if somebody gives you a hard no, then you stop wasting your time on them.

Like, And celebrate their clarity too.

Right? Yeah. And like, you go and work with somebody you can help. But a long time ago, and I've tried to find this, so if anybody knows where this is, like, I can't find it. Um, there was this interview with Gary Vee ages and ages ago where he said to somebody, and I just like, God, I just love this so much. He was like, what if I told you that it takes you 20 no's, you have to get 20 no's to get to a yes. But you're guaranteed to get to yes on 21. How quickly would you cycle through those nos? You would ask everyone. You would ask the bank teller. You would ask the person on the corner. You would whatever. Now, nobody can tell you how many nos you have to go through until you've done it enough times that you have pretty strong data, right? And then you can tell. By the way, I've said both data and data in this. So, if anybody is tracking that, I, I have commitment issues and, um, You've committed to me for years, so I'm okay with that. Yes. No, that's just with data and data. I can't, uh, I can't make a decision there. But so the thing is, is like up until a certain point, until you have a long track record, you can't figure out what that is. But I still look at the nos as this, like, someone is bound to say yes. I don't know if it's gonna take me 20 nos or 200 nos or 2,000 nos, but like, by God, I'm gonna get through as many as I possibly I can until I get to that yes. So nos aren't personal, they're literally just a statistic probability of getting to yes. Full stop. Like, and so that's how I think of them. I love them. The more nos I get, the more likely I am to get to a yes. And for me, because of the way that I run my sales process, that yes is going to be a fucking brilliant yes, right? Like it's going to be our perfect client who understands our value, will pay for it, participates in the engagement in a way that leads to fantastic outcomes. So, yeah, win. That's a win.

Absolutely. And I, my business coaching is showing in the aspect that, and I know that April's least favorite thing, well, not least, but one of the least favorite things is documentation. For me, something that helps with my psychological safety is documenting the nos because that's how I get good at those statistics and those conversion rates. That's something I know you do in your head. You know how many nos it takes you to get to a yes, and you're just really good at the process and not even wasting your time with people that aren't qualified leads. And if you're listening to this and you're starting out in business, having a spreadsheet of people that you've talked to and nos and yeses, like simple green, red, It is helpful.

So it's helpful. I build out personas on a regular basis. Personas are one of my favorite things to do. This probably goes back to my love of like fiction and creativity and those types of things. And when I build out a persona, like they have a name, I understand where they are on the gender binary, what their, you know, education is and how much money they make. Like I make all of this stuff up, but it's all grounded in reasonable facts, right? But something that I do with personas that I think a lot of people don't do is I also make a column of like, what are their professional goals? What are their personal goals? Why would they say yes? And why would they say no? And the why would they say no is probably— why would they say no and personal goals for me are the most unexpectedly valuable columns that I can build out because if I know why somebody is going to say no. To something, I can start there, right? Like, it's really easy to start there and be like, hey, my guess is that you don't necessarily think that this has value because of all of these reasons. And most of the time in that conversation, they'll say, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. How did you know? And I'm like, I'm just that fucking good, right? Like, um, but then we address those things, and if we can't get past them, there's no point and me selling to why they should say yes. Because if you can't get past the major why they're going to say no, then don't waste your time on the rest of it. If you can address those things head on, Chris Voss talks about this a lot, like naming it, right? Like, it sounds like that you might not feel like this is the right solution for you because of these reasons. If you can walk through those openly and honestly and they can come back and say, Okay, actually, like, you've alleviated that for me and I'd like to explore more, then your odds of closing that deal skyrocket.

Yeah.

But you can go through every reason why they would say yes, and if you don't uncover the number one reason why they would say no, then guess what? You're not gonna close that deal. Full stop.

Yeah.

Like, or if you do, it's 'cause you discounted the hell out of it and then they still don't see the value, right? So not a good choice.

April doesn't discount.

I don't discount. It's not a thing I do. Yeah. Actually, you know what? I do want to say I lied. I realized afterwards, not on purpose, but the one area where I will give a small discount is if a client, in return for an earned video testimonial and case study. And the reason why it's the case study takes a lot of time, right? I will say if we earn a testimonial, we'll get it. But regardless of the outcome, if you'll do a case study, which means that we get access to everyone who participated in the engagement, what the results were, and we get to use those either internally or publish them. I, because they're putting skin in the game, I will also put skin in the game for that. But that's more, that's not really a discount. That's an exchange.

Right. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. So how I want to end this before I ask you what your definition of yes and is, is I want you to share the fuck it bucket story of like how you created that, because I think that's a great way to kind of sum all of this up with imposter syndrome and how to go to college in Germany and come back to the US and still just move on with your life through all of the things that you have been so successful at. And I know you And I have a different definition of success sometimes, but I wanna hold that mirror for you in your level of success and how you've done it with your kids. And so you wanna describe what the Fuck It Bucket is?

Yes. So my oldest child is on the autism spectrum, and when she was younger, she had a lot of social anxiety, anxiety in general. Uh, she was scared of everything. So one of the things that I really wanted her to do that I just feel is like really important is just feel your feelings, right? And we talked about this a little bit earlier. What we haven't talked about is I, I have like every single night I take a bath, I do a couple things. First of all, I have a bath picnic, um, where I, I've got like a little shelf in my bathtub and I take like charcuterie or dessert, glass of wine, whatever it is in there. But I set a timer every single night so that I can like really sit with my feelings, whatever they are. I've gone through some pretty significant losses in my life. Um, I've walked away from relationships with, in particular, one with somebody I felt like I was gonna spend the rest of my life with and like realize I could still love him, but we weren't compatible. And like, how do you deal with that? Right? So I set a timer and if I'm being, if I'm sad, I'm like the saddest person you've ever scene. Like, I like ugly cry, like snort cry, do this, right? And then when the timer goes off though, I'm done. I'm just done with it. And then I know every single night if I need it, I can set my feelings timer. If I'm happy, I'm like patting myself on my back and like telling me all— telling myself all these great things about myself. So I really feel like you should feel your feelings and you should address them and like unpack them. So with Athena, when she was young, um, when she would get scared, we would take a piece of paper and she would write down all of the things that she was scared about, whatever it was. If it was ordering her lunch from the server, it was like, I'm afraid that I might mess up my order. I'm afraid I might say the wrong word or mispronounce it. I'm afraid I might forget what I want. I'm afraid I might misunderstand what she's asking, right? Like all these things. She'd write down everything and then we would tear that piece of paper out. And she would wad it up into a little ball. And whatever type of parent this makes me, even when she was like 3 years old, she would wad it up into a ball and she would throw it in a trash can or on the ground or whatever. And she would yell, fuck it, I'm just gonna do it. And so that was our fuck it bucket, right? Was whatever she threw it into was the, was the fuck it bucket. And it allowed her to step past some of the things that she battled with autism in a way that felt really, really empowering for her. So a few years ago, I started doing a livestream on LinkedIn called Club Fuck It Bucket, where people come on and they just talk about a time in their life when the universe told them like, this isn't a smart idea. And the people around them told it, but it was like something they really, really wanted to do. And then they were just like, you know what, fuck it, I'm going to do it. And there are a ton of stories out there. Everyone has them, every single person. Even if you're not a risk taker, even if like, you know, you get scared, every single person has that moment in their life where they said, fuck it. And sometimes it turns out great and sometimes it turns out like shit. And like, you just sit with that and we talk about it. And so I spend a lot of time in my life figuring out what is it that's holding me back. Writing down all of those things, either, you know, actually writing them down or working through them in my head or whatever, and then just saying, fuck it, what's the best that can happen?

There you go. I love it. I love it. All right, it's that time to ask you, what is your definition of yes and?

For me, it's about exploring possibilities. There's And first of all, coming at things with a yes mindset. Everybody knows people who come at life with a no mindset. Their first answer is no. Their second answer is no. And they come at things like, just convince me until I say yes. I've dated those people, worked for those people. I've been friends with those people. And for me, that is incredibly draining and hard to be around. So I no longer surround myself with no, but convince me people. I like yes, and people. So for me, it's always start with yes. It doesn't matter, right? Like when my kids were little, I would, I was a yes, and parent. I don't even know if we've talked about this because this is the funniest thing. I love that that's what this podcast is called. When my kids were little, like my oldest daughter would say, Oh, like, can I beat my younger sibling up? And I'd be like, yes. And, and you're going to do that when you write a story about doing it, right? Or you create a play or a musical. Can you do it in real life? Inadvisable. Like, you can, but there are consequences, right? But here are some other alternatives for that. Can I have a cupcake for breakfast? Like, yes. And you are also going to eat this whatever, like, yeah, healthy other thing, whatever it is. So I always tried to be the parent who said yes and. I try to surround myself with people who say yes and. And when somebody comes to me with a question or an opportunity or, uh, you know, anything, my first answer is always yes and let's figure this out. And I do this with my students too. We do every single semester, we do a thing where I start with some sort of like weird kind of story and they all have to take turns going around and saying, you know, yes, this is a great idea because, and then they'll say it, and we could also do this. And when you get through like 15 students who are doing that at the end, you have all these like crazy amazing ideas. And then they use that as a brainstorming to figure out what solution they're actually going to use to solve this problem. I think we surround ourselves with tons of yes and people, then you end up with these amazingly dynamic and thoughtful and unusual solutions to what's going on in your world and in our world, in our world communities. And that's where we find innovation and that's where we find progress and that's where we find success in our own lives and with our businesses. And our sales process and those types of things. So unless it's a discount, then it's fuck no.

That's the best.

Sorry.

Okay. So where, where do you want people to go who want to continue this conversation and want to connect with you?

I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, so it's linkedin.com/n/hotmessboss. That's a persona that I really leaned into. I also spend a lot of time on Instagram, so feel free to follow me there. It's also Hot Mess Boss. Um, and while I don't have my OnlyFans set up yet, Bunny has inspired me.

Updates on that soon.

Okay, so y'all just have to know, when Bunny came to talk to my class, she was like, which bio do you want? The like stuntwoman turned serial entrepreneur or like the business or the OnlyFans? I was like, all of them. Thank you. And obviously she doesn't have an OnlyFans profile, but that's the joke. So now, now you're in.

Yet.

Yes.

And so I love that. Well, we've covered a lot in this episode. We have covered imposter syndrome. We have covered getting the nose in sales. We've covered my OnlyFans account. We've covered the fuck it bucket. So that is everything that we could cover in our time that we had today. And I just want to thank you so much for being here and for sharing your light and your wisdom and your experience with the Yes And Podcast community. So thank you for being here.

Well, thank you for having me. This was so fun. I mean, you know, I love anything that I get to do with you because I know it's going to be unexpected and awesome and fun and memorable. So, and help people, because that's what you do. That's your superpower.

Yes, and. Yes, and. Fun and memorable and help people. And we get to have our dinner tomorrow night. So for those of you that I won't be having dinner with tomorrow night, thank you so much for going on this journey with us through the Yes, And podcast in another amazing episode. And we really do appreciate it. April and I appreciate the fact that you've made it this far into the episode wherever you have. Taken us, whether you've taken us in the bathtub for your bath picnic and your feeling your feelings timer, or if you are on the road driving to wherever you are to make the world a better place. So much love, so much appreciation, and we will see you in the next episode of the Yes And Podcast.