Slaying Self-Doubt Without Losing Yourself w. Katherine Wintsch

In general, the negative voice inside of a man's head tends to be critical. So, you know, do better next time, buddy. It's borderline complimentary. It's critical. But for women, it's cruel.

All right, welcome back to another episode of the Yes And Podcast. I'm already laughing, which means that this is going to be an incredible episode of the Yes And Podcast. You are here because you want your cake and to eat it too. And we are here to make sure that we can support you on that journey. And when I say we, I have such a treat and a special surprise for you today. So I have brought one of my really good friends. I can't even say how many years that we've been in orbit of each other. And even though she's like literally just down the road, We're still doing this in separate podcast studios, but it feels like we were just talking about it, that we're in a bougie New York hotel lobby catching up over drinks. And I hope you go to our social media and check out some of the images of this because Kathryn looks super sexy with her lipstick and all of that. And I look like I rolled out of bed for some reason, and I'm okay with that at 8 and a half months pregnant currently. So I am bringing on one of my friends and international speaker, international author, international badass mom, like so many other things. I'm gonna put her bio in the show notes, but I know that she doesn't want me to just read off of her bio. So the biggest thing that I loved about her bio is at the bottom it references like, yeah, here's all the incredible, amazing things I've done, and I've also failed a lot too.. And so like I've slayed my own dragons and slayed my own obstacles along life. And so without further ado, I'm bringing the one and the only Ms. Katherine Winch.

Hi, thanks for having me in our bougie hotel.

Yes. Thank you for being here. It's just awesome to have you. I don't know. I think I told you this story that you donated to the American Heart Association when I was speaking there in February, you donated a purse. A journal, and your book, which I already have several copies of because clearly I was the first in line to go and buy your book. And then I made you autograph it as well. And I was trying to show somebody how to bid on the purses and all of that, and I ended up with your giant pink purse and your book and your journal. And I texted you and I was like, what am I gonna do with this? Because you know I don't use anything that's pink. So it's still in my closet, and I have an autographed copy of your book that I just figured I could gift to somebody. But I thought that was— did I tell you that story?

No, I've never heard that story. I love it.

But it's like going, going to an auction and bidding on your best friend's stuff that you already own, like, and you end up going home with it, and you're like, oh, that's true love.

I think that's true love. Like, you don't even like pink and you got the pink purse.

I'm gonna— I'll send you a picture tonight. I mean, it was huge. I don't know if You, you saw the purse, but it was huge. Like, it could be the diaper bag.

Yep. And there you go, there you go, a sexy diaper bag.

And, and the purse is for sure worth more than like any other purse that I've ever owned in my life. And so I was like, of course, now, you know, I just need to go somewhere with you to be able to, to use this purse. And yeah, so you have had so much going on the past several years, all amazing things, in supporting moms and supporting Fortune 50 companies in what I would say, like, being more accessible to both moms from an employment standpoint and from— is it okay to say, like, a marketing standpoint?

Oh, definitely. Yeah.

So that's just with the mom complex. And in your book, Slay Like a Mother, which I know you're working on the second one, right?

Mm-hmm.

Are we allowed to say that?

Can, can we, yes.

Can we have some behind the scenes? Yes.

You ready?

Yeah.

Okay. So Slay Like a Mother is a very introspective book, as you know. It's how do you feel about you? What do you say to yourself when no one's listening? How do you compare yourself to other people? You know, kind of a deep dive on the inside of you. And the second book is still gonna be all about self-doubt because that's my lived experience and a lot of research and expertise that I've developed. And, um, so it's still going to be about self-doubt, but it's going to be about the external societal norms and stigmas and double standards that cause us as women to double down on our self-doubt so that women can understand that it's not just you. You do have the weight of the world on your shoulders. And so it's looking at these external factors and then the solutions go deeper in that, um, I'm moving away from self-care and starting to talk about soul care and how can we care for our souls and not just our bodies and our skin. You know, self-care, I believe, has been co-opted by capitalism and now it's extraordinarily expensive and it's, you know, pedicures $55. And we all know that there's a time and a place for pedicure. We love them. But all of your problems in life still exist when you leave the nail salon. And so it's a very external solution. It's a very temporary solution. But soul care is going to therapy and it's talking about your inadequacies and it's painful sometimes. It's not always— it's not pampering. It's not always pampering. Sometimes it's pretty painful. But so that's what That's what the next book will be about.

I love that. I love that. And I stole a screenshot from your Instagram. I think it was one of your Instagram stories from— you did— this goes into soul care because I want to get practical and give the audience and listeners some— an exercise to walk away from. I stole the screenshot. You remember this. You were speaking at a conference and you had people write down the last negative thought that they had on, I think it was like an index card, and then you took a picture of it. And I actually stole the screenshot and used it in my Disrupt HR presentation. So I'll have to shoot that to you. We did Disrupt HR. I forgot that we did that together that one night.

Yeah, we did.

That's what happens when we have a little bit too much to drink. No, that was planned and fun. It was. What was not fun was reading those cards. That was painful for me for, for two reasons. One is, and if you remember any of them or if you have any of them lying around to share, just to, to give context to the listeners, it was painful to me for two reasons. One is to know that there's in the thousands of women that you are presenting to in that room, that those are the thoughts that are going through their minds. And this is being personal. To align with so many of those thoughts that were on those index cards, as if I had written some of those index cards. And I know that for people that were looking at your stories, like you can see the analytics, how many people probably indicated that they aligned with those thoughts as well? Like what were some of those thoughts, if you can remember?

Yeah, so the exercise is, um, an exercise that actually my therapist had me do for the first time, probably 8 years ago. And the exercise is to write down the last terrible thing that you said to yourself. And the point of the exercise is to get these negative images, these negative thoughts you have about yourself. You have to get them from outside of the inside of your head. And many women don't even know that they speak to themselves so terribly. We're just running through the day yelling at ourselves, annihilating ourselves, and we don't really stop to think about it. So when my therapist had me do that, what I wrote down at the time, again, 8 years ago, The last terrible thing I said to myself was, "You are a poor excuse for a strong woman." And it was really a life-changing moment for me because I saw those words, my words in my own handwriting, and I knew it was true. And I knew that that's what I felt about myself, even though I didn't really know before that, that that's what I felt about myself. And so I do that exercise every single time. I give a speech, and I'm talking about, I've done it with executive women at Wells Fargo, and I've done it with women that are in a maximum security prison. I do it every single time. And unfortunately, the thoughts are all exactly the same, regardless of race, regardless of income, regardless of stature, career, etc. And so several of them that I remember from the event that you're talking about, one was, You're fat, you're ugly, and it's a miracle your husband loves you. Another one was, you were too hard on Flynn last night, you're gonna scar her, talking about her 3-year-old daughter. There's typically sentiments of worthlessness, you know, it's, you're never gonna be good enough. They're very extreme. You're never gonna be good enough. You're never gonna get this right. You should just quit. You should just stop trying. And in Slay Like a Mother, I talk about how I've studied negative self-talk in both women and men. And the difference is, of course, I'm generalizing here, but in general, the negative voice inside of a man's head tends to be critical. So, you know, do better next time, buddy. It's borderline complimentary. It's critical. But for women, it's cruel. So there is a significant difference about being critical of yourself, which sometimes that's helpful, you know. And, but being cruel to yourself is helping absolutely no one. It's not helping you. It's not helping your family, your children. But it is important to, you know, get those thoughts out. And for any of the listeners, you can go to slaylikeamother.com and there's a video that plays right on the home page that has women sharing out loud the last terrible things that they said to themselves.

So that's the exercise. And now for the exercise for this podcast episode, what do we do with those thoughts now that they're out? What do we do?

Well, you have to— the first goal is awareness. So, you know, write them down every time it happens, you know, put it on a, you know, gum wrapper. Doesn't have to be a journal, doesn't have to be fancy, but begin to write them down so that you can start to see what is the theme. Is it about your weight? Is it about your marriage? Is it about your job? They tend to be tend to be concentrated in, you know, one or two aspects of our lives or area of our lives. So it's like, okay, where— start to learn about where you're most critical of yourself. But the second step is to know you're never going to get completely— get rid of the negative self-talk. The Wall Street Journal reported once that we have, um, 80,000 thoughts a day and 70% of them are negative. So don't make that the goal, that you're going to stop yelling at yourself, but you can teach the negative voice in your head some manners. And so I'll give you an example in my own life. So I enjoy riding an exercise bike, you know, from time to time. And not too long ago, I was at a hotel gym on a business trip and I was riding the bike. And when I was done, I rested my hand, both of my hands on the top of my backside just to kind of stretch my back. And I grabbed two handfuls of cellulite. And the negative voice in my head immediately said, "What must that look like?" And I'm looking around, you know, can everybody see my cellulite through my pants? And so first of all, I heard it. I heard the voice say, "What must that look like?" And then I taught it some manners. And I said, "What this looks like is that I got my ass out of bed and I put it on a bike." That's what this looks like. And so for the listeners, I want you to notice that what I did not do is compliment myself. I didn't say, oh, don't be silly, Katherine, you're beautiful. You know, that's very hard for women to do. And I think it's too much to ask. And so all I did was correct it to say, no, what's happening is that I'm exercising. And so it's kind of neutral in that sense. So hear the voice and then teach it some manners.

Yeah, I love that. And I actually love your backside for the, for the record. You, you and I can hang out any, anytime with, with that. I'm gonna compliment you because I don't think we do enough of that for ourselves. And I know that's something else of receiving the compliments of like really letting it in. That was something else in your book. About, was it a mirror exercise of like how we're, we're talking to ourself and how, how do we receive that? I, I was working with a somatic coach once that was talking about like, if it's nourishment, like if it's taking a drink of a smoothie or taking a drink of this life-saving beverage and how far you actually let yourself metabolize it and digest it. And I think for most women that I've coached and that I've experienced in a corporate space or in entrepreneurship, that loudest voice, as you talk about, is our own. And when we do receive the compliment, it's like we spit it back out. We don't even start to digest it. So along with teaching some manners to the voice, how do you receive from others?

I think that the practice, when somebody compliments you, what I tell myself is shut the fuck up. Like, just don't say anything. Because what we automatically want to do is have a rebuttal. You know, if somebody even says, your dress is beautiful, it's like, this old thing, you know, I got it on consignment, you know, and we dismiss it. Or someone says, you know, you're beautiful, or you're really smart, or you're helpful. And then we immediately said, well, you should have seen what I got on the SAT. No, I'm not, you know, and it's always this rebuttal. And so The practice I do is I just bite my tongue. And when somebody gives me a compliment, I say nothing. Like sometimes I don't even say thank you in the best way. Like I just try to take a big inhale when somebody says something nice to me. And to your point, I'm trying to inhale it. I'm trying to absorb it. And it is a practice, just like, you know, playing the piano would be a practice or doing yoga as a practice. So you do get better at it, you know, over time, but Even if you're not, even if you, your mind immediately disagrees with it, I don't think it's okay to disagree with it out loud because your soul is hearing that. So I just smile and I inhale and it works really well for me and I'm able to hear it because I'm not arguing with the person.

Yeah. Some, something that I enjoy doing, my family has taken some getting used to. Is like, if I tell you I love you, what's your response?

I love you too.

It's kind of, I know you mean it, and it's kind of transactional at this point because how many years have we been doing that?

Yeah.

And so the same kind of thing is with like, thank you. Like, I, I feel like it's lost a little bit of the energy behind it.

Yes. Yes. I agree.

So what I switched to was, I receive that.

Mm.

And my husband's a Star Wars nerd. I am not. However, there's a scene in Star Wars where, um, Harrison Ford says, I love you to Carrie Fisher. And she says, I know. And so I switched it in my brain. When my husband says, I love you, I tell him, I know. And when I receive a compliment from like my parents, or my husband, I say, 'I receive that,' and it's just enough psychological interruption for me to slow down, like your breath, and inhale. And it disrupts our conversation to be like, 'Why would you say I receive that instead of just thank you?' And, and we have this beautiful conversation with my daughters, who are now 12 and 6, that— but they grew up with you in my life, and you've watched them grow up. With being able to have this conversation. Like, Mommy is intentionally slowing this down.

Yeah.

And doing my best to really process it. And I wonder how that's going to impact them over the next decade, because, you know, I'm in my late 30s, and so it's like I'm doing it for my own sake, and they're still in this period of psychological priming to be able to say, like, What does that actually mean? Where we're not just having that transactional, thank you, I love you too. Even my oldest daughter will say it in French. And so it's just enough to kind of pause and be like, oh, she's re— she really is comprehending this.

Wow. I am totally gonna steal that. That is remarkable. I receive that, that it, like you're saying, it's so disruptive cuz you're right. Even if you say thanks, it's almost dismissive. It's like, you're right. There's no energy behind it. It's just, it feels flat. I receive that. It's almost like you're saying that verbally, but then your mind is almost forced to follow those instructions, you know, and actually receive it. And what I thought about when you were saying that is it must feel good to the giver of the compliment to you because, you know, when somebody has a rebuttal to what you say to them, it doesn't feel good to the person who complimented you. But I can only imagine if you said, I receive that. Then you've received the gift, you know, that someone gave you and they, they wanted you to receive it. And yeah, I'm going to be using that. I can't wait for someone to compliment me next.

I can't wait for your hubby to come home tonight and do that.

Yeah. Well, he's kind of short on the compliments, but I might have to wait for somebody else.

Well, that's why I did it with I love you as well. It was almost The way that I saw it, like I visualize it, is when you're telling me I love you, I owe it to you to receive it first and not just throw it back at you. Like, I do intend to recycle the energy. I do intend to, whether it's to you or whether it's to Guinness or to somebody else in my life, I'm gonna do something with your love. And I don't have to just give it right back to you out of obligation.

Right. Again, doesn't have a lot of energy behind it. It's like a, it's like a, um, it's like a reverb. It's just, it's just bouncing back.

And so that's where we found like the, I know, is it's a comedic awareness of like, I'm participating in your nerdism.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm also like programming my brain to say, you do know he loves you.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, somebody just said they loved you.

Yeah.

And it, it kind of, for my brain, you said something about like how saying I receive that, you're programming yourself. And I can guarantee you, for the first 2 months that I did it, super uncomfortable for the first part because it's so unfamiliar for me and for the person in the conversation. They're like, how weird, why wouldn't you just say thank you? I'm like, because I'm working on this. And I don't know that I believed myself, if we're being honest.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

I said it, and then eventually I believed it.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm just thinking that, like, with my husband, I'm trying to think of what I want to say to him when he says I love you, and the first thing that came to mind was I should just say thank God, like, because his love for me really saved me. Like, he— I dedicated Slay Like a Mother to him, and in the dedication I said that The world always saw, you know, a light inside of me, but he was the first person that could see that I couldn't see the light inside of me. And that opened me up to changing and healing. And he, like, yeah, he could see that I couldn't see it. And so he definitely, we've been married for 21 years together for 26. And there were many, many, many, many years that he loved me more than I loved myself. And it sustained me. Me and it, um, so that's what I'm thinking. Like that I'll say the next time he's, you know, says I love you, I'm gonna say thank God. Like, and thank God he still does, you know, it's a beautiful marriage. It's a beautiful partnership and it has served me very well and I'm just so grateful for his love. But I think when I just say it back, it probably doesn't feel as grateful as I feel inside.

Yeah, well, you have the option of saying it in French because he speaks French.

Yeah, so true, true, true.

You don't have to answer this, and because we're in the spirit of Yes, And, how long do you think that that marriage would have sustained if you did not start loving yourself as much, if not more, than he loves you?

My first reaction is, um, I got two thoughts. One is, um, I'm not sure it would have sustained because, you know, when I was— when I didn't love myself on the inside, I definitely exhibited behaviors on the outside that were less than ideal because, you know, I was looking for love in all the wrong places and smoking and drinking and, you know, partying.

And it's like a country song.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it should be. Um, and so You know, I, and I, I have a little bit of flair for the dramatic, you know, as my therapist says. And so, um, I think that those behaviors probably would've escalated just, you know, looking for love and attention in, um, external sources. And so that's not really his jam, you know? And I think that he, you know, over time probably would've lost respect for me. That's my, my first instinct is to say that, but at the same time, Um, he didn't really know, and the world definitely didn't know how broken I was on the inside because I wore a mask and it was thick and porcelain and beautiful. And I always looked happy and I definitely had the trappings of success that the American culture says. Um, if you collect all these titles and trophies, then you have succeeded. And when I healed myself, I asked him, you know, now that I love myself, now that, you know, I'm finally whole, what do you see as the difference in me? And he said, Katherine, nobody sees anything different in you now that you've healed yourself. He said, the difference is you finally love yourself the way that everyone else has always loved you. And so I say that because my transformation was internal. And so I don't think most people would see a difference in me. And so I guess there's part of me that thinks maybe it would never have affected my marriage because I appeared happy. I appeared put together. I appeared successful. And, you know, I was an actor on a stage and I was good at acting. And so, um, it's kind of interesting, this internal transformation that I've gone through and in the most beautiful way, I have nothing to show for it. There is no title, there is no trophy, there is no applause. There is nothing that is coming to me externally and saying, you know, good job, you learned to love yourself. It's like this very quiet revolution. And I'm okay with that now because I don't need the external love as much as I used to.

I think it's shifted absolutely everything. I'm biased and I think it's shifted absolutely everything though, as far as how it feels to be in relationship with you. Because there's, there's that give and receive in that, that I think that until you really experience what that is beyond the skin suits that we wear and beyond the masks and beyond this human experience, like it's a very incredible, real connection that I don't think is there until— how could you possibly receive and metabolize something that is unfamiliar and foreign in your body? And so I, I found that the more that I've grown, the smaller my circle has gotten and the more I'm so fulfilled by those relationships. And so one of the things that I wanted to talk about is going from the external, I mean, having all of the titles, having all of the awards. Now, when you take the stage, people are seeing this very accomplished woman who's always been accomplished, let's be honest. But at one point in your life, you said, "Eff it, I'm betting on myself." And actually more than one point in your life, it's been several times. I think you get up every morning and have to bet on yourself every single day. To become a speaker, to become an author, to start The Mom Complex. What is that conversation? Because there's so many women and entrepreneurs and listeners here that are like, I, I wanna have my own business. I wanna become a professional speaker. I wanna work with companies like Unilever and Wells Fargo and, you know, all of the big ones. How do I even start? What was that conversation for you?

Well, I, a lot of people think that the, the leaps that I've made to become an entrepreneur, to become a speaker, to become an author, where they would describe it as very courageous, but it's just not the way that I look at it. Um, I was so broken in my previous career. I worked in advertising and I was working 80 hours a week. I was a shell of a human being. I was a bad wife, mother, sister, daughter, friend, human being, and Uh, that industry is very, very grueling and it's nonstop and it's never enough. And you're always chasing new business. You're always chasing the next high. So it was kind of like an alcoholic working in a bar, you know, because I was such a people pleaser that that environment was dangerous for my psyche. And so it was not a leap of like, I think I can do this. I think I'm great. I wanna change the world. It was like, I cannot work. In this industry anymore, or I think I will die. And I was already half dead. And so for me, it was more desperation. And I didn't know if I could do it. But the thing that gave me confidence was I figured that with the idea of the Mom Complex and consulting with these, you know, big companies, that all I had to do was make enough money to cover my salary and in an entire year. And it wasn't like I was making that much money. And so that just kind of put it— that was like a great reality check for me. It was like, I'm a really hard worker and I'm very determined, and I definitely thought over 365 days I could get enough consulting projects to earn my salary. And I would try it for a year, and if it didn't work, I was certainly employable, you know, like someone would hire me, you know, in a different industry. And so that, you know, gave me the courage to take the leap. And then It was a very similar story with becoming an author. I never dreamed of being an author. I had never obviously written a book. I'd written some blog posts, but I certainly did not have the confidence that I was a writer, you know, but I had done research with 10,000 women in 17 countries, and I knew for a fact that they were as broken as I was. And then after I healed myself, after I learned to love myself, I felt called to write this book. Because it felt very selfish to me to keep these secrets to myself. I had the keys to the kingdom. I knew how people could learn to love themselves in very, very practical ways. And if I just went back to my day job, um, it felt wrong. And so that— those were the— the pain was the motivation for me in both instances.

I don't love that you were in pain. I'm going to share what you said about making your salary in 365 days though, because I think that's something that not a lot of people look at from that perspective. And the tangibles of it, I would imagine, you and I haven't had this conversation, is looking at your Rolodex and figuring out where to start and just making that list and having those conversations.

Absolutely. And another thing I think that is sad about the narrative in the American culture is that in order to be an entrepreneur, you have to take on money from other people. You have to have investors, you have to have a board of directors, and your goal is to work your ass off, kill yourself for 15 years, and then sell the company and finally take a nap. And I just rejected that narrative. I was like, I am not taking money from anyone. I am not taking direction from anyone. I will not have a board of directors. You know, I need to be in charge and in control so that I can have balance in my life.. And so that's another thing that just doesn't make it that hard to do what I do because we're not trying to grow. We're not trying to take over the world. We're not trying to have 50 employees. And I sleep really freaking well because of that. So I just rejected that notion and I got the courage to reject that narrative because I went to a conference one time. There was a female entrepreneur on the stage and she said, growth is not my goal. Meaning financial growth. And I thought, oh, that's an option. Like, yeah, you can, you can be an entrepreneur and not scale your company and not sell it. I was like, sign me up.

Yeah, it, that's, I mean, at this stage in the game, like my goal is for all of my clients to be even more financially successful than I am. Like, okay, stand on my shoulders. You don't have to make all the mistakes and dumpster fires that I went through. You'll have your own. But this is the new starting line, especially for women entrepreneurs. And that's one of the reasons that I started the tech company was because I didn't see anybody like me in the tech space. And yeah, I was laughing while, for those of you listening, I was laughing while Catherine was sharing that because she happens to be married to somebody who has a pool of startup entrepreneurs all around him. And I'm like, I wonder if you go down to 1717 and share that.

Yeah. Well, they're all, yeah, they're all trying to grow and scale. So, but, and that's their prerogative, you know, if that's what they, if that, I think everybody has their own definition of success. And for many, many entrepreneurs, it is growth and it is scaling. And, you know, it's just not my definition, but it's, and it's hard to have a definition that's different than the current, you know, in society. But I love sharing it cuz I hope it inspires other people to pick the path that you wanna be on, not just follow the path that everybody else is on.

Yeah, I love that. I, I want to ask you what your definition of yes and is. And before that, if we have time, and I did not plan this or ask you for permission, but that's just how we roll, is we've talked about our personal stories and we've talked a little bit about relationships and we've talked about business, there was something that you shared on Instagram this morning. Hopefully by now the listeners have already looked you up and are following you because you have so much good content on there. But it's about kind of society. And I think that this was a story from an American household of a multiracial family that posted their— or not posted— that put their house on the market. Day 1 of the showings, they only had white family member photos up. Day 2, they only had Black family members up, and they received, uh, their offers. And the offers that they received on the second day when they only had Black pictures and photos of Black family members was $100,000 less than the offers that they received on day 1. What do you want the listeners to know and the— your followers know by sharing that story? And then we're going to go from there.

I want people to know, especially people who look like me, um, that racism is alive and well in this country. And I think it is denied all the time. It is dismissed when Black families, Black individuals, people of color say that racism exists and and a lot of people dismiss that. And I think that that example that I shared on my story this morning, like, it is real. It's, it's really, really real. And of course it hurts people. It injures people. It, you know, affects their psyche. It causes them to double down on their self-doubt. But when you see that the offers, the value of their home was devalued by $100,000 when it was perceived to be owned by a Black family. So it goes beyond feeling and racial slurs. It truly impacts people of color. And so I think the first step is we just have to admit it. We have to stop, you know, denying it. And everyone is racist to a certain extent because we have been indoctrinated into a culture that it's in the air, it's everywhere. It's in the education, it's in the medical industry, it's in schools, it's everywhere. And we have inhaled it. So to say that we don't have biased and racist beliefs, um, it's, it's just simply not true. And, um, I love giving a voice to it. I love supporting, you know, people of color and admitting it. And, um, I hope it helps other people that look like me and you do the same.

Yeah. And being able to, like, just like you said with the negative thoughts, uh, I truly believe that that awareness is that first step. And so I appreciate you being able to share that, and I'm proud of you for using your platform to be able to bring some more of that awareness and the support. And, um, I also think it's just incredible if people go back on your timeline, uh, last year in September, we were in Greece at the same time, but you were in Greece after going and doing a summit. What was the name of the summit in Africa?

It was the Women in Film Summit that was hosted in Nigeria, Africa. So it was women in the film industry all around the world. There were probably 19 different countries represented there, and it was hosted in Nigeria. And I donated 500 free copies of Slay Like a Mother and My Time and, and flew over there and inspired them. And it You know, I keep thinking that one day I'm going to go to a corner of the earth where women don't need my message because they've already healed themselves. And it's unfortunately just not the case. It's— I've been to Nigeria, I've been to India, I've been all over the world, and it's heartbreaking that it's the same everywhere. But that's another reason that I wanted to write the book Slay Like a Mother, because I was doing a lot of speeches, but I felt like I needed to give people a guide. I needed to leave something behind other than you know, just my punchlines and jokes and stories. And, you know, and so I love to think about that book, you know, in the hands of a very diverse population all over the world.

I was reading the book on my way back from Ireland, and I was sitting next to the former governor. He was the governor at the time of Maryland. Had no idea that that's who this was. Which is why I think it's so great about humans and perception and perspective. And I handed him the book because I was just like, you know, he, he was having— he made some kind of comment, and I won't tell you like what the comment was or what his name is for out of his protection, not that he needs protection. And I hope that I just found it so ironic and aligned what I was reading in your words and then what I heard him say to the flight attendant. And so I went to get up to go to the restroom and I just handed him the book where, where I was reading it. And the flight attendant, um, saw me do that cuz the flight attendant was waiting with Guinness, my service dog. For those of you listening, I know Katherine knows who Guinness is. And it, it was just like, in what other universe do we have this perfectly orchestrated moment where I'm reading your words at this particular time? And that was just, that was last year. And when did the book come out? Because I feel like I've read it a couple times.

Yeah, that is, well, that's the way the universe works. You know, it is, it's all aligned. It's all connected. And, uh, that was meant to be, you know, you were meant to hear that you were meant to be reading that exact passage. And, um, and, you know, I don't often hear those stories, so it's so rewarding to me to hear it. Like, I can picture that happening. And, um, it's what I always dreamed of, you know, uh, people reading this book, being moved by it and sharing it with other people. It's just that ripple effect that, um, you know, was always— it's never been about book sales or money or anything like that. It's about the ripple effect of the healing and the impact. So, um, I love that you shared that.

I, I want to make sure that people understand, like, even though that we're friends and even though I read the book when it came out, I have picked it up and read it again. And I've read parts of it to my children, and I've given it away. And I think that it's important that you go to the show notes and you get the book, not just for yourself, but there's somebody else in your life. And it, it really is a different kind of book. That's, that's how I'm going to leave it is, you know, what I've learned is the person that I'm reading it isn't the same person that started reading it that finishes reading it. It, and that comes back to it in 6 or 12 months. So it is one of those books that I'd encourage you to pull back out and to read, and it feels like you're almost getting a little bit of coaching from Catherine as you're reading it, as well as like almost generational coaching from all over the countries that you've been, the women that you've impacted. And I just highly encourage you to check it out. And I'm going to make sure that the link is in the show notes, as well as the link to be able to stay connected with Katherine to get to know more about her and her mission and when the second book comes out. So I want to give you an opportunity to give your definition of "yes, and" before we close. I know we're over, but it's us, so couldn't help it.

Yeah, I would say my definition of yes and is yes, I can be successful and impact the world and I can take care of myself at the same time. And in my previous life, um, those two were mutually exclusive. You know, I was successful, I was making an impact, and that was it. And I was not taking care of myself and I just love this life that I've built, that I can do both, that I can change people's lives and help them. But it's not at the sacrifice of my own life or my own sanity.

I effing love that. And for all of our audience and listeners, that's the first time I've ever heard her define— I've heard Catherine define, like, her definition of success, of being able to have the success in business and in career and all of that. And being able to take care of herself. Like, normally the definition, and I think it's even in the bio, is like, I can be a successful businesswoman and a good mom. It's like, oh, I can create all of this space to take care of somebody else. So I love, love, love that you just said I can be successful and take care of myself. Like, that's—

amen.

We're gonna go update the bio now.

Yes, that's very insightful because if I can be successful and take care of other people. That's all external, you know, still both of those are external. And, um, yeah, yeah, I love that. That's, that's me.

That's, I mean, I'm over here getting super excited in our bougie New York lobby of like, as my little giddy screams are echoing off of the marble. So if other people wanna join you in your virtual bougie New York lobby, where is the best place to connect with you?

Um, I would say go to saylikemother.com is the best place, and you can sign up to follow us on social media there. But you can also sign up to get our newsletter, and every 2 weeks I send out a newsletter that's filled with dragon-slaying techniques and tips in the form of blog posts and podcasts like this one, um, articles and everything. And, um, it's a good way— you're going to need encouragement, you know, on this journey.

So, um, you can sign up on our website Yeah, and I highly, highly encourage you to do that because it is like getting some of the best coaching and access to the wisdom and knowledge that Catherine's collected over the years for absolutely free. Like, you know, there's— to my knowledge, I haven't found any courses or programs or anything like that on the site. It's just all free resources. And so I highly, highly encourage you to do that. And I'll make sure that the team puts all of those notes linked below, so it's super easy for you to continue to connect. And slaylikeamother.com is easy enough to remember, so I'm confident in all of you guys to be able to do that. So huge thank you and love to you, Miss Katherine, for being here in the Yes And community and sharing all of your wisdom with us.

Yeah, it was so fun, just as I thought it would be, just I knew as it would be.

Awesome. And also, Katherine, I want to thank you for taking us with you wherever it is that you took us, whether it was on your drive, whether it was a nice long walk on the beach, a walk through New York City, or on your own dragon-slaying adventures. I'd highly encourage you to listen to this episode again. I guarantee you're going to get more out of it. That's just how the conversations with Katherine go. And I cannot wait for our next conversation in our next episode of the Yes And Podcast. Until then, I am Bunny Young. Thank you so much for listening, and I will talk to you soon.