What Nobody Tells You About Changing Directions After Years Of Success

So our topic today is about being wealthy and weird.

Oh, okay.

And how the more weird you are, the more wealth you can create, especially in the land of AI.

Welcome back to the Yes And Podcast. So this is the space for entrepreneurs and everyone on the planet to get authentic and build an F yes life to make F you money. Money and a business that works for them. I am your host, serial entrepreneur, retired stuntwoman, and mother of now 4 beautiful kids as we record this. And the greatest gift of all, I've built a life that I don't feel like I need to escape from. And just because I forgot to tell you, I'm your host Bunny Young, so there's that. And I am super stoked about this episode because Those of you who have been here for a while, or if this is your first episode, you know that I love talking to people who do business differently. Because let's be real, entrepreneurship is not just about making money. It's about making impact. It's about freedom. It's about creating something that aligns with who you are.

And so today I have brought a mermaid hair designer and marketer who has worked with brands like Apple and Disney, and her bio is super, super impressive. However, I'm going to have her share that with you because really what I'm going to tell you is we're aligned through our hair colors and our love of Disney. And so, and there is no one else that I think that you will agree with me more that does business differently in the way that she walks and the way that she talks as soon as you meet her than my friend Kathy Olson. So welcome to the Yes And Podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Yes, and yes, and I know I love that. So we are going to jump into it. You have any guesses on what I picked for the topic for today?

I mean, Disney something? I don't know.

Oh yeah, so Disney, Disney is part of it. Disney's very a part of it.

Yeah, no, I don't. I have no idea. No.

Okay, so our topic today, and this is like super formal, is about being wealthy and weird.

Oh, okay.

And how the more weird you are, the more wealth you can create, especially in the land of AI.

Yeah.

And so for those of you listening, Kath owns a company called Funnel Gorgeous, and it's basically about how to make marketing simple and easy. It's the entire brand is built around the female entrepreneur, and when you meet her, she is just as unapologetic and herself as I am.

And so that's what— like, I was meditating this morning and I was like, that's what we're going to talk about. We are going to talk about the how being weird makes you more money in 2026. Go take it from here.

Well, it's funny that you say that because I— even in the intro, you were, you were saying, you know, like, we, we do business differently and all this stuff. And it's funny because I don't know how to do it any other way. Like, I don't know that I did this really on purpose? I will say the hair color for sure I did on purpose because I was blonde basically my whole life, and I got mistaken for every other blonde. You know, I would meet people, I would go to like a networking event, and they'd be like— I'm like, hey, it's, you know, how have you been? And they're like, I'm sorry, have we met? And I'm like, about 5 times, but it's okay. So I was like really forgettable. And so I think, um, in doing my hair like this. I started off with just a couple streaks here and there, and then it just started taking over my head. Every time I went in, it just took more up, more and more of my hair. And then purple wasn't enough, and then I had to start doing rainbow and all kinds of stuff. So it's been since 2016 basically that I started that journey of my hair stuff. So it's like my 10th anniversary, um, of colored hair. But I will say, as soon as I did that, I felt more like myself than I ever had in my entire life. Like, it's like if there were a natural hair color that should be growing out of my head, it was purple because I finally felt like me. And that's, I think, when you do step into who you like actually are, you finally feel like you belong, like you're, like you're aligned, you know. So for me, it was the hair thing. And, you know, and it hasn't stopped. It's been 10 years at this point, um, even though it's a, it's a huge commitment. Um, but I mean, like, what is it for you, right? Like, what is it for you that you finally when you stepped into it, then you finally felt like yourself. And also people started recognizing you as yourself and an individual, because after that no one ever forgot. Like when I would see someone at networking event or something like that, they're like, oh yeah, of course we met before. So I— so the, the forgettability went away as soon as I kind of stepped into that.

And really knowing, you know, who you are and being willing to have fun with it and being willing to offend some people with it, which we're going to go deeper into. However, I have to laugh. I know I've I shared this with you, but for the rest of the listeners, you know, I have the Mermicorn hair that has the peekaboo underside of like blue and purple and all of that. So Kath and I definitely like resonated over that, and that's kind of the foundation of where our BFF ship, right? Like, that's how you would say it, BFF ship?

Sure, I've never heard it before, but it can start today.

Yes.

And then the second was around Disney. And so it's like owning these things that make you different. When I'm walking through an airport, people—

I've had people stop me and be like, oh my gosh, your hair, like, is it natural? And I have fun with it. I'm like, no, I have to dye the blonde because the mermaid naturally comes in, you know, like, so, or the other thing is, you know, I have like a Disney backpack or, you know, I have my Disney purse that we had talked about.

And it's the things— the more willing for me to be me, the more authentic our connection can be. And so your willingness to have what your hair represents outside what you have going on inside, as well as my willingness to show up to a business networking thing with a Disney purse, you know, or a Disney bag, like it connected us deeper because I, I wasn't like every other person in the mastermind that we're in. And it's not to say that those people are not cool and amazing. They are. But you're going to connect with them for who they are. And your willingness to be you allowed me to connect with you really on a different level. Right. And that's unique. And I appreciate that. And my experience has been that I turn a lot of people off by being me, and I have a hypothesis on why that is.

But I want to know, have you had that experience, and what's your hypothesis on why you turn people off by being you?

Yeah, I mean, I, I don't have that experience in like person. I feel like people don't often say anything mean to me in person. Like, I mean, it's always funny to see who, who does react to it. It's mostly women, I will say, that, that say something like, oh, I love your hair. Mostly women. I could probably— because feel more comfortable. But every once in a while, a guy will just be like really into it, like, oh, and ask me questions, you know, how long does that take? You know, that's always like the question and stuff. So like, I guess I only really see the positive as far as in person. Where I get the hate and the weird comments is online, of course. And that's usually only when we hit like a cold audience, like with an ad or something who's like, we're really stretching out the audience and they don't know us at all and they've never seen me before. And that's where I get the weird judgment. And I would say it's a professionalism thing they usually say like, oh, I wouldn't want to learn from someone who blah, blah, blah. Like they, like they've put these boundaries on who they want to learn from. And then they, and then they like write you off as like, well, you can't teach me anything about business because look at the choices that you made with your hair. And I would say it's similarly with people who have tattoos or piercings. Like if you're, if you're seen as like, I don't know, alternate, alternative, which, you know, changes all the time. Because I think even like when I first started dyeing my hair to now, I see it way more often, right? Or tattoos or whatever. If, if people are saying that immediately makes you unprofessional for whatever reason because you're— they wouldn't do it, right? But it's funny because I— yeah, for the most part, I actually see more people say, I wish I could do that, I wish I was brave enough to do that. Like, even like, you know, like older women, or they're like, oh, I wish I— if, if I could just pull that off, or I wish my, my work would allow it, or whatever, right? They're like, good for you, but not for me. And they kind of have this issue like that. Um, so I think everyone's kind of trying to try it on for size. Like, would that— would I feel comfortable in that situation, or would I be 'But like, what if I want to be, you know, like, I guess, you know what I'm saying?' But I don't know that people say it to me as much. I'm sure they're thinking it, but I don't really get it outwardly. I usually get positive stuff, but it's probably because in real life people are— they keep their thoughts to themselves, and then online they don't, is probably the difference.

Yeah, I, I get both.

I get both.

Like, not about my hair per se, but I get people that um, will comment on, well, you're pretty direct, you know. And my hypothesis on this is exactly what you just said, in the aspect that I'm living my life in a way that they either don't agree with or they don't think they can have for themselves. And so by making me wrong, they can continue doing whatever it is that they're doing, even if they don't like it.

Yeah.

And so, you know, just being able to really like lean into that and have that awareness that whatever their comment's going to be, whatever their judgment's going to be— and I said judgment, like, that's my word— whatever they're—

I realize that there are some people in this world that have to make me wrong in order for them to feel right, but no one on the face of the planet can tell me how to live my life, or is more of an expert. I'll say it this way, no one on the face of the planet is more of an expert on my life than me. And that took me a while to become really comfortable with.

And we're gonna go there in the aspect that in 2026, with AI and with everything else and all of your expertise with marketing, how The more you, you are, the more money you will make.

Absolutely. Yeah. Why? Well, I think, why is that? Or like, why now? Or yeah, I guess all those questions.

Yes.

Yes.

And yes.

Yes. And so I would say, let's just like think about AI for a second and why it is so hard to stand out with AI is because the way that AI was trained is to predict patterns, but also to be the most boring, like, you know, like, like it's, its job isn't to be an outlier, right? It's taking the amalgamation of all like human knowledge or whatever that it's been trained on and then to like spit out the most like safest, right? It's like, like it's, it's like the, okay, here's what everyone said and then here's like that all summarized, right? And so when it gives you content or writes things for you or even, even giving you strategy or like if it's like hyping you up or coaching you, it's gonna give you the most middle of the ground. Generic, here's what everyone said and here's a summary. Like the average of what everyone said is what it's gonna spit out, right? And so that's why it's like, and unfortunately it's making all of the content like that, right? Like, because all, if everybody's AI content, then everybody sounds exactly the same because it's all saying the same thing, right? And so that's where like the human aspect is gonna stand out. It's gonna repel, like you were saying, it's gonna, it's, some people are gonna love it, some people are gonna hate it. But like, if, but if you're the sound the same as everybody else, our brains are actually tuned or, or, or, or, or trained to, to, to like knock that stuff out if it sounds the same. So it's like, you know how like if you smell something for, if you have like a scent or something in your house and it keeps going and then eventually you don't smell it anymore and you're like, oh, why doesn't, why doesn't my like air freshener work or whatever? And it's just because your brain has like tuned it out because it's so used to it. Or like, or I used to have an office where I had like a, an airplane flying overhead and eventually I never even heard the airplanes. I was like, people are They're like, that doesn't bother you? And I'm like, what? What doesn't bother me? Like, I didn't even hear an airplane going over. So, or like, we see sameness as boring and we don't even see it. It's crazy.

So it's, we're gonna be a disruptor, right?

If we are.

But what you're not, what you're saying is it's not about not using AI, but it's about using AI to be more you.

Right.

So first step one, uh, tell me where I'm getting this wrong, but step one is to know who the fuck you are. And to like be really, really clear on that. And step 2 is applying that to your business, your offer, your audience, and how that actually is the biggest differentiator. And then you're saying like the last piece is actually using AI to accelerate or pour gasoline on those first 2 differentiators, not to do what a lot of people do— are doing, which is have AI tell you who you are and what audience to go after and what offer to build.

Exactly. Yeah. So I think, I mean, even, and even when you're saying, you know, step into who you are, there's kind of a step zero in there that like, if you don't know who you are, you have to start trying things and then it's gonna feel right. It's like all of a sudden something will click. So like with my hair, right? I didn't know that I was gonna do that forever, but once I did it and I finally, it finally clicked. Then I said, okay, this is me, right? That's when I decided. So if you're still at like, you know, step zero and you're still trying to figure out who you are, that's how you figure out who you are. You try all the things, you take all the classes, you do all the things, you learn as much as possible, you become a sponge, and then you see what lights you up. And then you like, you recognize the ignition and then you go for it, right? So that's kind of like the step zero. But as far as like with AI now, for a really good example is if, if I'm trying to, if I have a thought, and I don't even really speak in complete sentences. So it's— so AI is very good at like making my— like, like grabbing all these thoughts and pulling them together and making them make sense for other people. So it's almost like, you know, translating what I'm thinking. So a lot of times I will just brain dump a story. I'll be like, hey, I had this thing, I have this feeling, I'm thinking it's this and this and this. And I just kind of take all the ideas, throw them in there. I said, well, you make, make this make sense for people, right? And a lot of times it says okay, and then it'll sometimes it'll ask me follow-up questions like, Okay, but what about this? Oh, you're right, I didn't really talk about this. And like, you know, so it's kind of poking holes. So I see it as almost a completion of that and maybe like massaging it so other people can connect to it by way of creating examples or like, oh, it's kind of like, you know, metaphors, that kind of stuff. But I think using that lived experience and telling stories to it and then having it use your stories is one of the best ways to use it, to use AI.

Okay.

I wanna go deeper into the AI thing. However, like what I love that you're sharing about is being weird or being you.

We just, I call it weird because normal's a setting on a washing machine. And so I think the more different that, and different from what, right? Like different from the average or different from the standard. I definitely deviate from the norm in the aspect that A, I'm the breadwinner, B, you know, my hair, I'm super tall, I have a giant dog, but this is all my normal. Like, this is my normal. And so the more me that I am, the more that I find other people that like, this is also their normal. Where you and I will text and be like, we haven't done it yet, but it's like a Tuesday, and I'm like, hey, do you want to go to Disney? You know, like, how many people can go to Disneyland on a random Tuesday? And I feel so blessed to be able to do that. And If I feel blessed because I'm able to do it, but I like feel guilty or whatever the word is, so I try to like hide it, then I won't be able to find my other people like you. So there's an attraction metric of being you where you find your audience.

Then how do you, how has your experience been with building Funnel Gorgeous where like the more weird you are, The more valuable the offer is, the more valuable the product is and the business experience.

Absolutely. Really, really good question. And I, I take this with everything I do, whether we are creating a course or, you know, we're doing the software thing, anything we're doing, we're always looking for people who are almost like underserved. And I think the only way to do that is to stand out. And, and so whatever, whatever hill you're, you know, willing to die on, there's other people that have been looking for that. And so that I, I think. We kind of did it on accident. You know, we, we joined this like bro marketing, like, you know, funnel world when it was all about like ugly, like ugly converts. Don't, don't worry about the way it looks. It's just the copy's the only thing that matters. Just get it up and get it selling. Don't worry about what it looks like. Whereas like we traditionally know from these multi-billion dollar brands that looks absolutely matter and aesthetics absolutely matter. And just because they were like making a couple pennies over here by ignoring it doesn't mean that's the way to go. Right. And so we just kind of had this hypothesis. Thesis of like, no, what if it were gorgeous? What if it was yes and? What if it was gorgeous and the copy was really, you know, well done and the offer was really good? You know, like, why can't it be all three? Wouldn't that be better than being ugly but good copy and good offer? Like, having all three— offer, copy, design— like, go together, wouldn't that be better? Like, we just kind of had like, I don't understand why people are saying this. And so we stood on that. We're like, no, we know it's better, and then we're gonna prove it. And then we did prove it, and then everyone like really was was interested in that. Like, the people who didn't, didn't subscribe to ugly funnel sell, right? Like, didn't like think that that world was a thing. They, they— or, or it didn't feel good, it didn't feel authentic. Like, whatever reason that they agreed with us, they did. And then it just started to take off, you know. It started at Funnel Gorgeous, started as a course where we were just showing people how to design funnels that were gorgeous, and it turned into a whole, you know, multi-million dollar company and then software because of it, right? So it's like when you have And again, we got, we got like hated on. We got all kinds of stuff. We, you know, guys would be like, oh, Gorgeous. Oh, like, oh, this. So this isn't for— so this isn't for men. And we're like, there's plenty of things for men. Like, like you're not underserved in any way, shape, or form. But there's a lot of women who want gorgeous things and we're not going to like not name our company that because we're afraid of alienating, you know, 49% of the market or whatever. Right. Like we were like, there's enough people on this side that really believe in this. And that won't be offended by the word gorgeous, that let's go with it, right? And it's— and it, it's— it was, it was one of the best things we ever did. I was actually afraid— I came up with the name, but I was afraid to name it that because I was afraid to, you know, alienate the market. But Julie was like, no, like, I— like, we should just go all in on this, even if it's weird, even if people don't like the word gorgeous. They're gonna get over it, right? And they did. And it was a much better idea. But I think, you know, that, that kind of polarity and actually being okay with repelling people that weren't weren't like down with it was part of what like people attract— what, what attracted people. And like they wanted to be also a part of because they wanted their stuff gorgeous, right? So like it became an identity of like, we have, we have swag that says gorgeous all over it because it was like, we— that's how far we went into it where people were wearing shirts with the word gorgeous on it, right? So it's, it's super interesting how I think it shortcuts a connection, just like the— what with Disney, right? We both found out we like Disney and we were like immediately like understood each other. It just shortcutted like, yes, the connection and us going deeper, like from, you know, 0 to 10, right? Because we're like, oh my gosh, if she also feels this way about Disney, like, we have a lot in common. Our brains kind of work the same way, right?

Yeah.

So yeah, and being willing to be weird and being willing to love what you love and speak it out loud long enough until you find that person. And like, I was watching that new documentary, um, This is not sponsored by Disney whatsoever. However, I want you to like bring this out of me, and you do as well, is that Disneyland Handcrafted. I don't know if you've, you've watched it. It's like the same documentary over and over again about how Walt didn't have money. He didn't have people that believed in him. Uh, Disneyland was built in like 11 months, which is freaking ridiculous.

And yeah, the concrete was still drying like the day that it opened.

Oh yeah, exactly. Like, and I was, so I was watching this and I don't know that we could build Disneyland again in 11 months, but it was like this, the, the two things that I want to pull from this is like the way that Walt was working was just, he would go to the studio and he would do all the things and then drive over to Disneyland because this was the thing that he was obsessed with. He didn't stop at us. Ask what anybody else thought about his idea. Like, you know, he would ask, you know, experts as far as that kind of stuff, but experts told him that he needed to delay until September. Experts told him it couldn't be built in 11 months.

Experts told him, like, you know, it was too far away. And he just— he would show up and he would move the needle closer and closer to the dream. And he had people working 11, 12, 13, 14-hour days because that's what he was doing. And I'm not normalizing that, but I'm just saying like he felt that's what he needed to do to move the needle closer to his dream. He had this movie studio that was funding Disneyland because nobody else would do it. And I, I learned in that documentary that like to build, um, the teacups, to build Dumbo ride, to build Casey Jr., he went to the roller coaster manufacturers and was like, can you build this? And they said, yeah, but we'd rather you just buy what we already have. So he had to manufacture all of those rides himself because like you said, they were like, well, yeah, we could design a gorgeous funnel, but ugly funnels are a thing. So just go with what's already existing. Don't be weird. Be okay with what normal is, what the standard is. And there is a small population of people that are going to say, yes, I could. And this is my dream.

And when you go after that dream, it could tank, it could flop, you could get get stuck in asphalt in your heels on opening day. And yet if you don't give up on it, and you're the— it's like the longer you're willing to hold your dream and be weird and be unapologetically unrelenting in that dream, I find more people like you that are like, oh yeah, it's absolutely normal to go to Disneyland as an adult without your kids. Like, it's absolutely normal to love Disney. And so like, walk me through why that's such a thing, where finding your people and having that feeling, as well as what makes Disney special.

Yeah, I think that for me, because I have like a lot of things that I want to do, so what's like, what's the difference between like a hobby or something and like a business idea? Like, what, when, when do you go all in on something? And I think for me, I guess I can't really speak for anybody else, but for, for me and for us at the, at our company, it's really about knowing and loving the people that we serve and knowing what's best for them. So I think even when you're, when you're thinking about Walt going above and beyond and building stuff, it wasn't because he just like had a vision of a cool ride. Like he had a vision of a ride, like he, he had like a 3D vision of like what that ride would be like for the adults that went with the kids, right? Like, you know, like you learn about how he wanted an amusement park that was like just as fun for the adults for the adults, it's for the kids, right? And so like, and no one else was doing that. Everybody else was just catering to the kids. And he was like, no, like the adults matter, because he knew, because he, he went through that, right? So like, I think when you have a vision that's that big, but it's more than just you, is when it becomes worth seeing it through like that. Because you have like, it's because it's not really, it's not like we're not necessarily motivated by money all the time, or like whatever. It's like impact and actually like helping people. And so I think when you know your person like really, really well is when you're willing to push past the norm in order to serve them because you have them in your mind. And so it's like, yes, like, you know, an ugly funnel could sell, but a gorgeous funnel is gonna build a brand that's gonna outlast, it's gonna be a legacy business that I could pass on to my kids. Right? So it's like, instead of just making money right now, it's almost the long, like the short, long game versus short game, right? You push a little bit extra when you're in it for the long game and for the people who you're gonna serve than when it's just the short game, because like, again, you can make money in a million ways. We can get on OnlyFans or whatever, just make money until, I don't know, until it's over, we're too old to be on there, I don't know, whatever. But like, that's not like giving back to people, and that's not helping people and whatever, right? Not— no, no judgment on that if anyone's doing that. I'm just saying, you know, there's lots of ways to make money, but making money and like pushing and doing like— I mean, not maybe not even pushing, but birthing, right, of like making something go from nothing and and creating something and making something and going above and beyond is so worth it when you have people who are receiving it and it's been what they've been wishing for and hoping for, and you're getting that feedback. So it's like, we'll start to put something out and then we'll get feedback of like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Oh my gosh, this is changing. And that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes you push, right? Because you're like, wow, like this is actually connecting. It's actually helping people. And that's what gives you almost like the food that you need to keep the energy sustained in, in pushing up against all this opposition. Because it's like, yeah, all his contractors were like, no, we can't do this. And he'd be like, but I know that people want this, and so make it happen because they matter more than your, you know, you're like telling me that I can't do it. Like, I'm gonna keep trying for this goal because I— because it's worth it.

Your limitations, like, you just figured it out, you know. Like, they did an interview with the landscaper, and the landscaper's like, we literally ran out of money to buy more plants. And so Walt's like, well, how can you get mature trees that you don't have the money to buy? And he stole them off the freeway. Like they were building the 5 Freeway.

It's crazy.

And he just had people drive down the freeway and wherever they tore up a palm tree, he would take it to Disneyland.

Yeah.

And you know, it's so, it's figuring, it's something like, and there's a, there's a quote around this, but it's like arguing more for your possibilities than your limitations.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And being surrounded by that. And when you're in business, one of the biggest things is your own worth and overcoming that fear of being seen. Because even now I can hear people that, like, they hear the thoughts of the people that are listening to this and hearing you talk about Funnel Gorgeous and being like, yeah, but then how do I find my people?

Where do I market?

Like, it's all of those limiting stories that are in our heads.

And so land it for us on how you can be weird and market in a way that is not just more noise on social media, or more noise, but actually moves you into the audiences that you desire to attract and into building a multi-million dollar company, if that's what the listener desires?

I think it is like an intersection of a couple of things. Like, number one, like what you're passionate about and what people love to like learn from you whenever you start talking about it and they're like, wait, tell me more about that. But not— but also, of course, like what is relevant to today's market, not like just making something up from nothing, you know, kind of trying to see where people are already at, what they're already looking for so that you can get kind of some momentum. It's like really hard to create something that never existed. It's much easier to iterate on something, or find like someone who they're doing the thing, but there's something wrong with it that they don't like. And there's no one serving that. So, so it's like, it's like the, the people already exist and they're having a problem with whatever the current popular thing is. That's always a really easy place to look. So if you can kind of find this like intersection of those, of like what you love to do, what you're really good at, what lights you up, what's your genius zone and what people are, are struggling with and they're already paying money for. Cuz again, it's really, really hard to like make a market that doesn't exist at all.

You have to have a lot of budget.

A lot of energy and a lot of team members and stuff to like make something a thing without, you know, so, so usually the intersection of that, we do have a free class called Offer to Impact and we just created a GPT in there that actually asks you questions. It's like, what are you good at? What are you da da da? And it like kind of spits out a whole thing for you and it's totally free if anybody wants it. It's an amazing GPT. Like we should definitely be charging for it eventually, but it kind of helps, like it helps you get out of your brain a little bit and just kind of ideate and sort of brainstorm what like that intersection would be and actually creating an offer and putting something together, like what would it cost? Like, because there's a lot of stuff in there, right? Um, of trying to figure, figure out whether you're service-based or you're doing a digital product. Either way, because any kind of offer that you have could be done one-to-one or it could be done one-to-many. Pretty much mostly everything that there is out there can be just a container. And usually people start with clients because they need to like learn the ins and outs and they need to like figure out what most people would need in order to be able to turn it into a digital product. And that's just usually the way that it goes. But either way, It's, I, I think that's what it is. I think it's an intersection of what you're really good at and, and finding an audience that is already looking for that thing and starting to kind of speak into that. And you, and you do that by, you know, start talking about it. Start like, you know, going on podcasts, going in groups, like going in, um, answering people's questions, like see what people are actually asking for because it's, I will say the, the biggest pitfall is it's really difficult. When you're really good at something to understand the mind of the beginner. So the people that you can help, you're like talking at level, you know, 100, and they're like listening at level 1. So you have to learn how to like bring it way down in order for them to hear what you're talking about. That's a really hard gap, like really, really hard, because the better you are, the further away you are, right? Like you're getting further and further and further from the person who needed you. So So like, that's why going into groups or like, you know, being in communities, hearing the questions they're asking, you're like, oh, I didn't even know people didn't even know that. And oh, I'm like, and I know this as, you know, like a super nerdy artist and, you know, I do stuff on psychology and visual and stuff. And sometimes I start going and people are like, what are you talking about? So I'm like, oh, okay, well, you know when, and I have to like bring it way down. So I do this too. I do this all the time. Um, I think that's kind of what— that's the intersection that I think where you're going to get the most traction and you're gonna have the most fun too.

You know, that's— so you and I shared a room in December with, I guess, one of the leading female entrepreneurs in the world right now, with Codie Sanchez.

Yeah.

And we had a little bit of a conversation after that about like my realization. I want to know a little bit what your realization is, um, and then I want to go into funnels and energy to, to round podcast out. But my realization in that— oh my, no, if you send this podcast to Kody and I get in trouble, like, I, I— it's gonna be what it's gonna be, listener. So here, here we go. I'm going out on an edge. She's not special. I told you this, like, we had this conversation where I was just like, my realization is that she's not special. The thing that she's done more than you have, or more than I have though, is put her message out there. Yeah. And that sounds so simple, Kath, but it was such a big realization for me, is that the reason that she's so recognizable is not because she had the original thought. It's not because she built Disneyland. It's not because she built an iPod. Like, it's because she put her message out there, her face out there.

She talked to the most amount of people, per se, you know, and had one thought land and go viral, and then just kept going with that and was willing to, to receive negative feedback. And I mean, not necessarily receive it, but be at risk for it.

And so So in, in the land of AI and in 2026 and in the land of like all of this noise, what do you tell people who are like, well, I'm never gonna be a Cody Sanchez. I don't have the original thought and there's so much noise. Why should I even start?

Yeah, it's funny because when I, when I first heard Cody's talk about buying businesses, I had never heard of anyone ever talk about that ever. And it's not It's not like there's not a lot of people talking about it. I'm sure there is. I'm sure, you know, I'm sure there are like so many dudes out there talking about buying businesses and whatever, but she was the first person that I heard. Right. So again, it's not a new, it's not even a little bit new. This is like, this has been going on way before we were born. You know, like people have been buying businesses, whatever, this whole boring business idea that she has. Like you're saying, lots of people have that idea. Lots of people talk about that. Lots of people teach about that, I'm sure. But there's something about the way that she did it, and maybe because she's a female, I don't know, but like, I don't know what it is, but I, but I would say probably it's what you said, that she just kept saying it and just kept getting out there enough to break through the rest in order for me to receive it. Because I could have heard this, I'm pretty sure I have actually heard of other people talking about like acquisitions and stuff, but they were even using that word, right? Yes. And acquiring businesses and acquisition this and acquisition. I'm like, yeah, whatever. And she's like, "Bye, boring business." And I'm like, wow. Like, there was just something in the way she said it that finally I was like, I've never heard anyone say that before. So it's like, you know, like what we were saying in the beginning about we hear the same message all the time. We don't hear it. It becomes like, you know, we don't hear it at all and we ignore it. And so there was something that she said that got through to me and probably, you know, a lot of other people were like, oh, I hadn't really heard of someone say this before. And there was something really simple about her message. I think also, like I was saying, You've, I'm sure there's, I've heard people talking about acquisitions and acquiring, but it never like broke through to me or as of something like I, cuz it, it really made me think, oh, I need to buy a business now. Like I, you know, it, it turned it into a need that I was not there before with a, however other people were saying it. Right. So I think that that's what it is, is that even though there's lots of people out there, there's not a lot of people out there saying it the way that you would say it. And especially if you're, you know, bringing it down to kind of gen pop and like making it make sense to people who would've normally have ignored that advice or that take or that style or that framework or whatever. There's a way that you say it and that there's a life that you bring to it that someone's been waiting for and that they'll finally hear it.

Yeah, I love that. And it, it folds in what you said about, you know, the beginner's mind as well. And like, even when you said a need that wasn't there before, You, you still don't want to buy a boring business. You want whatever you think that the buying boring— buying a boring business is going to provide to you, which she doesn't necessarily talk about, but she definitely embodies and lives. And she doesn't care what you think about that. Like, she's incredibly unapologetic, um, around that. And that's like her entire brand, but the brand is also coming from how she's living, which goes back to your step zero. And this is something that coming from my, uh, corporate consulting and organizational psych and being a therapist, like that was super, super tangible.

And the thing that digital marketing and online marketing and building funnels— I didn't understand that I've been building funnels since day one in my business. And every single one of you listening has a funnel. It's just, is it optimized and are you aware of the steps? And so once you do what Cass said is step zero and you're really like owning who you are and then you're going out there and you're connecting to these people, you have an obligation, a responsibility to give them a way to continue down this path if they choose it, if they choose you and they choose whatever messaging you have. Please hear me when I say this. That. But most of us are like, well, if they want to buy from us, then they would just walk up and say, hey, I want to buy from you. Is that how it happens, Kath? Like, that's exactly how it happens in entrepreneurship, right?

Well, I've— I'll illustrate this by, there's been times when I've told a friend or somebody, like a, you know, like a colleague, oh, I wish there was someone that did something something. And they're like, you know that I do that, right? And I'm like, no, I did not know that you did that. Like, there's been so many times times when I've had a conversation with someone and I had no idea that that was in their wheelhouse, that they had an offer, that they had a course, that they had, you know, a group program. Like, I'm like, well, you could have fooled me because you're hot. You're— that's the best secret. Like, we know each other and I still don't know that. So, so how much more do people who are casually following you or on your email list, like, they have no idea that you're even doing these things?

So that goes back to the attraction. Like, in Defy, what I teach is attraction, nurture, conversion. And so you covered attraction really well with saying like the messaging, everything about our, our hair and really making sure that you're taking it down to the beginner's mind, if that aligns with your audience. Cuz there's also some audiences that you're solving a problem at level 100.

Sure, sure.

And so you would use acquisitions or whatever that language is. Yeah. But that goes back to the attraction and what you said about getting out there and having those conversations. Then where I find most business owners fall apart or are constipated— I'm going to use that word, it's their constipation in their, their business, um, is nurture. And you've literally built a business around this. I see it as allowing that energy to flow, and I see what you've built with the funnels is just allowing that natural flow of energy. How do you figure out once you have that person— I'm bringing it like really tactile right now and strategic, but how do you figure out what the next step is in your business to move them down the funnel to conversion? What do they need?

The key is to being in community with those people and understanding them. Like, you know, because I, I, yeah, I mean, we don't make up anything. We don't say, oh, I just feel like teaching, you know, on like automations today, you know, like how to automate your process. Like, no, it's because people are like, I really wish this were automated. Like, I'm tired of doing this manually. 'Emily, I'm tired of having to send out all these proposals or, or reminders or whatever.' And we're like, 'Wow, I wish there was something that we could create.' 'Oh yeah, we know of something. Let's create it,' right? So to me, it's such a loop of like, you're gonna constantly keep serving these people in a, in bigger and broader way by just listening to them talk. Because, because, but, but you have to have some kind of feedback loop where you're not just talking at them, or else you really are guessing. And I think that's when people will put out content or whatever and it kind of falls flat, it's because it's like something they thought that people needed, but they really didn't have any buy-in to know if actually anyone did need that thing. But if you're using the words that people are saying, the questions that they're asking, like, you cannot fail because you're literally— it's a closed-loop system, you know.

I just— I love that. You can't fail when you're using their words, when you're answering the questions that they're already asking. Just keep having that conversation. And, you know, obviously the conversion— well, describe the conversion, like, as far as, you know, is it salesy? Is it— should we just avoid it at all costs because we built these amazing relationships with this person and then we don't want to appear salesy, right?

Like, you know, so for me, that is all about understanding the psychology of the person and, and where— and where they are in the buying cycle and like why they would choose And so like, this is a really good example. So when I do like audits and stuff of like someone's like webpage or they're like a services page or sales funnel, I immediately ask them, who is this for? What's the problem? Where, where were they before? How did they find this? Because I'm literally trying to embody that person. I'm like, okay, I'm a mom and I'm this and I'm, and I'm like, I'm like putting myself in their shoes and seeing them as a 3D person, right? Of like, okay, they have pressures on them and they're wanting to make some extra money and they're wanting not to stress. But they don't want to use all their time and they want to spend time with their kids. So I'm putting all of that like preloaded information in my head as I'm looking at a page, whereas some people are just looking at the pixels, but I'm really understanding why would someone buy this and what would be happening in the moment. And so like, even as simple as if I'm going to click on a button to like book a call or whatever, I'm starting to go, okay, now why would they not book a call? Well, they're worried about the timing not being right, or they're worried about they're not ready for this call, or they're thinking maybe I need to do something ahead, you know, or whatever. I'm like trying to understand. So then I'm like, what could I put right by the button to say, you're ready right now. Like, you don't need to bring anything, bring yourself. Like, you know, you'll wish, like the, you know, you should have done this yesterday. I don't know, whatever. Right? Like, like the best time to do this is now. You don't need anything else. Let's just get on a call and I will help you figure out what you need. And like saying something like that next to a button is going to increase the conversions by whatever bajillion percent. Because you're answering the question that a human would be thinking. This is one thing that I don't think AI has any hold on at all. Like, it cannot do this at all to save its life. I've asked it so many times, now what would someone be thinking? And they haven't— it has no idea. So like, so for right now, this is a very human trait we have to— and especially, I think, even women. I think women in particular are really good at this because we think we, we are such nurturers that we're automatically thinking what people are feeling at almost at times, right? Oh, they might feel uncomfortable.

They might—

that— so for me, this is so easy to understand what someone's thinking in that moment because I've been in all these shoes and I've had all these, you know, these, these like thoughts swirl around my head at the same time before hitting the button, whereas the guy would have just already hit the button and booked the call probably, you know. Um, but the, but the little things like that, really, really helpful in figuring out all these even next steps. So not only just helping conversion on a page, actually like like, okay, they get an email. What would that email need to say? Well, they need to know, like, hey, do you need to bring anything? No, you don't need to bring anything. Hey, you know, what if, what if I have to reschedule? Here's the link to reschedule. So it's just like thinking through it as a human each step of the way, and what would I wish I had, you know, in this scenario, and just doing that. It's not salesy at all because you're just caring and loving on people, right?

I love that. I love that. And so the two biggest takeaways that from what you just shared is one, is, it goes back to tying in everything that we just talked about with being able to have the automations and being able to have the support so that you can just do you.

You can just care.

You can just bring your weird. You can just connect without having to think about designing the buttons and, and building the webpage and all of this kind of stuff, because that's the stuff that kept me offline for a very long time is that I didn't know how to design on JavaScript.

I didn't know how to like put all this stuff together. I just dated myself. I know with Java, but that's fine. Um, not to me.

I'm in that world, you know.

So that's— that is the importance of building structures and systems in your business, is so that it frees you up to be more you. Because I'm— I'm not a website designer. I know you are, but like, I'm not a designer. I'm, you know, what did we say, like an alchemist of business and life. And that's my magic, and that's my weird that I want to bring to my community. And so if I'm sitting here behind a computer trying figure out how to turn this button a certain color, like I'm not doing the thing that I'm meant to be doing. And so constantly asking, what's the next step in me bringing my magic to my community? That will naturally allow you to build that funnel. And then the other really big thing that you hinted on that I just want to like fall on the sword with is that I asked you for a help. Like, I came to you with my landing page, even though I've done this for 21 years, I came to you and I asked 10 other people. I was like, look at this and tell me what I'm missing because I am at step 100. And so being able to ask your community, you know, and being able to ask for that support and not being concerned about how it's going to be perceived because you're asking for help.

Yeah, like, is that something that you struggled with at all, or do you feel like once you got over the, the weirdness and the connection that you're able to ask for that support and ask for that help?

Oh man, yeah, I've never been afraid to ask for help. I don't know why. I guess I must have had, you know, good feedback growing up or something of, of that, you know, asking questions wasn't like— or needing help wasn't like bad or something, because yeah, I'm always down to ask people, people's help. I think because I put such stock what other people are thinking also. Like, not in— not in a bad way, but like, I really want to understand how people are perceiving things because this is like— I geek out on that. So like, sometimes I'll ask someone, you know, the same thing. I'll say, hey, take— what am I missing from this page? Because I'm too close to it. Because this happens to me too. This happens to us. And people were like, well, I didn't understand that this was— I'm like, oh, duh. Because like, I'm seeing it through different— a different lens entirely. So I don't see opinions and, you know, like, and thoughts and stuff from other people. I see it as data. I don't think it means anything to me, you You know, like sometimes, I mean, people will be like, oh, that's ugly. And then I'll be like, well, that's subjective, you know? But nobody really usually says that. It's usually helpful information. And again, we always have to think about this. If we're getting emails about something, it's like, well, if there's one email of one person upset and there's 100 people, people like it, well, like we'll take that with a grain of salt, you know? But for the most part, and the same thing, if you sent it out and people are giving you way different things, you're going to have to filter all that and ultimately decide because you'll get thrown run off too much if you lean too much on the community. But I, I do put my instinct above everyone else's. So again, I'll take the feedback and go, okay, I can kind of see why, why they said that, and is there, is there a way to run that through my filter to make it better? But like from my filter, right? So I'm not just changing things. Like if someone's like, I don't like that blue color, I, I know from data that blue doesn't make that much of a difference— green and blue or whatever— it's not going to like change the conversions. But I might like, what is it making that person feel? That's like, why are they so against that? And then trying to dig into that. So it's kind of a little bit more complicated, but I, I definitely love feedback and I love asking people questions. I love people getting the full scope of how people feel about something because I just see it as data, and I think it'll make me a better marketer and a better salesperson if I can understand how different people's brains work.

Yeah, well, and speaking of support, I'm going to make sure that you have all of Kathy's information link below this podcast episode so that when you're listening to this, you know exactly what next steps to take. And if you want to connect, and while there's a million designers and a million marketers and a million people that could teach you funnels, only one person is going to evoke the energy that Kathy just did while you were listening to this podcast. And also there's only one person who's going to give you a special deal on something that's actually going to serve you.

You guys know that are listening to this.

I'm not not just bringing affiliate codes and marketing every single, um, guest that we have on this podcast.

It takes a lot of my filter in order to ask somebody to be on this podcast and share them with you and a lot of trust. And so I asked Kathy to put something together that would actually serve you and help you. So you can check out those links in the show notes. And Kath, any final thoughts? Because I am actually gonna step right over there and grab something that I forgot to put on my ask that I wanted to, uh, share with you, and we'll see if you can match my weird. But you share your final thoughts.

My final thoughts is, yeah, I think, you know, number one, do you. Don't be afraid to do you, and don't, don't wait any longer. Don't think that like you need, you know, step 4, 5, 6 in order to finally like be who you are. Just lean into it now, because trust me, now is better than waiting any much any longer. And also just take everything like— do, do everything like a human as much as you can, whether it's like taking tech and, you know, making your life easier, but still making it with a human touch. I think those are the two things that are going to serve you from now until infinity and beyond. There you go. There you go.

I'm going to wait to get the email from Disney that I have to pay for all of these mentions.

I waited a little bit in between, so maybe that's different.

Well, okay, you ready? This is the benefit of having the video on, uh, the podcast and going to YouTube and watching the video is that you get to see stuff like this.

Oh, here you go.

What I was gonna say, what ears are you choosing?

I don't even— I don't have any within grabbing distance. That's not a level.

You just have a Loungefly?

I have Loungeflies I could grab. Yeah, the rest of them are Sit down.

Show me, show me what backpack we're choosing.

Okay. Um, should I get the one that I, that I need to give to you?

Whatever one is desired. I was just thinking about the aspect of courage and bravery that it would take to, like, I wouldn't walk to the grocery store. I wouldn't walk in the grocery store wearing ears, but yet we have, there's so many adults that walk around this park and it's just normal. Realized to have mouse ears on their head as they walk around the park, and I just think that's so funny.

I love it. Yeah, so the— this one is actually for Bunny, and it's waiting for me to give to her.

It's so pretty.

I love it. Awesome.

Kath, thank you so much for being here and being on the podcast and sharing your wisdom. Thank you for, you know, bringing that to my community, and thank you for loving me and my weird and being my friend.

And I just know that there's so many listeners that are going to get so much from this podcast episode.

So thank you.

Oh, it was a pleasure. I love, love it. And we had a very long conversation. I don't know how you're gonna edit this, but hopefully it'll get all, all packaged up. But it was really helpful, I think, even to me. I think there's, you know, you always like when you teach things, you get something out of it also. So I got a lot out of this conversation, even like some questions I had with— I've been struggling with. So I think it's really cool for it to serve everyone else and also us at the same time. So I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Awesome. Thank you for bringing us along wherever you were, whether you're listening to this podcast in the shower, walking down the beach, or maybe you're listening to it at Disneyland in between all of your rides. I am your host Bunny Young, and I will see you on the next episode of Yes And.