Building a Movement, Not a Moment with Daisy Auger-Domínguez

All right, welcome, welcome once again. We are so thrilled to have you join us today. With us today is the amazing Daisy. I cannot wait, Daisy. It's been, oh my gosh, we've been planning this for quite a while and this day has finally come to fruition. I am so thrilled about welcoming you to this conversation. Welcome to the fireside chat, everybody. What we're going to do is I'm just going to share a couple of ground rules, but there's so many familiar people here that I feel like you already know the drill, right? Right. So welcome. We love the lively conversations we have with all of you. This is about us having a conversation, albeit virtually, right? So we would love for you to give us your questions, ask Daisy questions. To do that, I ask that you use the Q&A function. So if you do not put it in the Q&A, we may not be able to see it because as you can see, the chat is already buzzing, right? It's pretty hard to keep up with that. So if you have any questions, put them in the Q&A feature, and Daisy and I will address all the questions before the conclusion of this webinar. So keep it lively. Let us know what you think. Feel free to let her know how you appreciate her using emojis. We will commit to making sure that we conclude on time, but we've always loved your engagement, and I hope that we'll get to see that. Let us know. Amy, thank you. With me, there are some invisible people that you may not see in the background. Amy Kemp is with Namek. Susan is with Namek. Thank you for that. Hi. And I am so excited by some of the names I see here today. Kimberly, I'm just going to give you a shout out. It's so good to see you here with us today. And so we're going to begin. We're going to play a short video and then introduce Daisy, and then we're going to jump right in. All

right. Daisy Auger-Domínguez is a cross-sector global leader, speaker, author, and advisor on future-readying the workforce, fostering inclusion, and tackling burnout at work. Her books, Inclusion Revolution and Burnt Out to Lit Up, offer actionable strategies for building inclusive workplaces and revitalizing leadership practices. A dynamic storyteller, her insights have been featured at TEDx and in publications including the Harvard Business Review and Forbes. Her contributions have earned her accolades such as being named one of Hispanic Executive's Top 10 Leaders and one of People en Español's 25 Most Powerful Women. Daisy serves on the Board of Trustees at Bucknell University, her alma mater, is a member of the Harvard Business Review Advisory Council, MAKERS Advisory Board, and a strategic advisor for PeopleTech Enterprise.

There you have it, Daisy. I know, I know, what, what a long list of amazing accomplishments. Welcome, welcome to this conversation.

Oh goodness, thank you so much for having me. It's amazing to, to listen to your, um, your accolades, uh, in a beautiful video form. So thank you so much.

That's amazing. Thank you. So Daisy, let's jump right in. I am so Honored to have you join us as our first webinar in 2025, and it is so key given the kind of conversation we'll be having today. Right? So much has changed, and it's only January 15th. Right? And I will tell everybody: If you're not following Daisy on LinkedIn, you should. She shares the most amazing and encouraging nuggets for leaders and for everybody who's just doing this work. So you should follow her on LinkedIn. Daisy, let's jump right in. Your career spans. multiple sectors, right, from corporate leadership to advisory roles. Can you share a bit about your journey and how it led you to become such a passionate advocate for DEI?

Sure. And I always, as I warned you earlier, Annmarie, this question can take a really long time. And mostly because I think that when you ask someone about your career, there's always a beginning that starts much, much earlier. Mm-hmm. And, and I always, I always share my experience in terms of my origin story because it took me a long time to feel comfortable sharing my origin story in the corporate space. I was born in New York City to teenage parents. My father is Dominican, my mother's Puerto Rican, and they were ill-equipped to raise me. And I had a tremendous— I received a tremendous gift as a young girl in that my paternal grandparents offered to raise me. And they were living in the Dominican Republic at that time. So nearly about almost 2 years old, I moved to Santo Domingo, the Dominican Republic. And I grew up with my grandfather and my grandmother. And just to give you some— a bit of context, because I do have a very young family, my grandmother was 35 years old when I was born. Oh. Which is the same age I was when I had my daughter. So you can imagine the cognitive dissonance for me when I was like losing my mind over diapers and sleepless nights and thinking my grandmother had already raised 3 kids by this time. I was like, I can't handle this.

Mm-hmm.

But I say that because I was essentially my grandparents' last kid. And by the time that I came around, they were a bit more established in their lives. They had grown up in extreme poverty, had been exiled in the Dominican Republic where they raised their children, and had managed to raise and save money to come back to their native land. to, you know, to just, you know, not raise— they weren't thinking they were going to raise another family, but to live this next stage of their lives. And then so comes me. And by this time, they were able to invest everything they had in me, including my entire family. And so I went to an international school. That's how I learned English. And I went to the American School of Santo Domingo, for anyone who may know, which is one of, back then, a few private schools. And that meant that I went to school with kids from all over the world. So growing up, I grew up with my best friends being Danish and Israeli and Chinese and Dutch and Cuban and Puerto Rican and Dominican, right? The whole gamut. And I was being raised in what we now call a rich tapestry of diversity. Back then, it was just a lot of different people with a lot of different nationalities. And that, in many ways, shaped my view of the world because I— grew up as part of the we, if you will, of the island. I was one of the majority. I was one of the native— natives, if you will. I also grew up in a very different setup with my grandparents being my parents, and my grandparents who had survived a brutal dictatorship. So I grew up with kind of always a foot in and a foot out when it came to the normal experiences, or what we call normal, But I also knew what it was like to experience difference and a rich variety, right? On any given day, I was at our friend Chi Wai So's house having noodles and rice and beans, or I was at my girlfriend Rhea Arvesen's house having Dutch— you know, sorry, Danish ice cream cones and listening to all these languages. And then when I was a junior in high school, my grandparents and my dad decided that I would move to the US. And that was a really tragic move. Imagine, you're 16 years old. You're like, this is all you've ever known. And I had grown up going to New York on all of my breaks. I was— my father was a very young dad, but a very devoted dad. Mm-hmm. And so I spent all my Christmas breaks, all my summer breaks in New York City, but in a very Latino-centered New York City. So we grew up at 137th Street between Broadway and Riverside, for any of those of you, by City College in New York City. That was my identity. And then when I was a junior in high school, we moved to New Milford, New Jersey, in Bergen County. Oh, wow. And all of a sudden, I became a foreigner. A really strange phenomenon for me. You know, I would be called— literally, our English teacher would chastise the rest of the class and say, even the foreigner speaks better English than all of you, which, like, was not something that you want to hear as a 16-year-old wanting to, like, hide from everything. I was experiencing my first bouts of racism Because I was one of the few students of color, there were just like a handful of us in the whole high school. I experienced my first experiences with xenophobia, right? Of like, you know, people telling me, I was like, we're going to deport you. And I was like, but I'm an American citizen. You can't deport me. Right? All of these things as a kid that you're coming to terms with. But what was most poignant to me was that I was placed in this box.

Mm-hmm.

Right? I became Hispanic, right? After growing up as Dominican and Puerto Rican, right? After growing up with this rich tapestry of national heritage and experiences and pride and where people came from and, you know, and cultural variety, here all of a sudden it was like, no, all we can get from you is this. And this is— so you don't fit that box. Wait, you speak English? How is that? Wait, you are well-educated, but you're not rich? How is that? Right? All of these elements that to me were just so simplistic and that made me feel very little and different and othered very early on. And then I went to college in Pennsylvania and I went to Bucknell University where I'm proud to sit on the board now. But we were about less than 5% students of color back then. About 1% were Latino. And again, I enter this white university in a beautiful space in Pennsylvania, right? It's— there's the Amish, a penitentiary, and our university. That's kind of like all there is in that area. And it is a— it's really just breathtakingly, spectacularly beautiful. But all of a sudden, again, I am othered. And I am being asked to constantly have to identify myself as this box that everybody sees. And I did something that was— that You know, in hindsight, it was the most altering experience that I could have chosen, but I didn't know it at the time. I chose to join a residential college that was focused on social justice. I didn't even know what social justice was back then, right? This is 1991. You know, I did not know it in the context of American culture. It just seemed really interesting and the dorm looked cool. And that changed everything for me, Annemarie, that in those courses, in working with the professors that I worked with, I found myself, right? I— and I sought to not just find myself alone, but to find myself in relationship to others, and to understand the context not just of my heritage, but of the heritage of my Black friends, right, and of my white friends and of my European friends, right, of everybody that I was engaged with, and to understand it within the frame of power and privilege.

Mm-hmm.

And so that was my academic From there, I'll make this a little faster. From there, I went to NYU to get my master's in public policy. And I went straight out of undergrad because I had been accepted the year before in a summer program that was then led by Dr. Walter Stafford. And we have to name the people who have made an impact in your lives.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. And Dr. Stafford was a former member of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, for those who know that history and Black history in the US, was an academic that was very focused on trying to diversify the public policy field and had created this program for students of color to learn about that field. And I knew nothing about that other than I wanted to spend a summer in New York City at NYU, and that sounded fun. And again, at the end of that summer program where he taught a class on race, class, and gender, right? Like, we call that now intersectionality. Thank you, Kimberlé Crenshaw. But back then, like, this isn't— this wasn't the language that was happening. But again, I'm in this class, and I see myself. And I see— and I see not just me, but me in the context of so many. And so I decided I wanted to go to grad school and learn more about that. I went to NYU, got my master's in public policy with a concentration on education policy, where I studied multiculturalism and how it impacted our public school system in New York City. And after that, I still didn't quite know what I wanted to do. And again— and this is just a lot of serendipity and curiosity leading me to many different choices in my life. Mm-hmm. I discovered this program called the Choral Leadership Program here in New York City, Choral Fellows. And it's a leadership— and it's an experiential leadership program that takes you through 9 months of very acute, distinct, and profound learning experiences, understanding the intersectionality of sectors and industries. So we worked in the public side and the private side and government and nonprofits, right? It's understanding, again, the intersectionality of how all these systems and industries and sectors impact our lives and the decisions and policies and processes and practices that we live. So again, an amazing experience that kept on opening up my worldview on how things get done and how power and privilege are weaved into our lives. And then I decided that after all of that education, all of that, that I wanted to go to the private sector. And it was mostly because I had never worked in the private sector. My family had never worked in the private sector. My father just retired last year from being a doorman at the Grand Hyatt Hotel, a wonderful career that supported me and my 2 brothers through college. Mm-hmm. My aunt is a teacher. And that was about it in my family, right? And so I just— I wanted to enter the private sector. And naively, I thought in my head the private sector was finance. Right? Like, I was like, I'll do that. And of course, I got rejected, Annmarie, from like almost every job that I applied to, with the exception of Moody's Investor Service. And the reason why I was interviewed at Moody's Investor Service in the first place was because my dad's good friend, Ali Sistani, Iranian, when he moved to the States during, you know, the aftermath of the Iran-Contra War with a PhD in economics, nobody wanted to hire him. And so he started his professional career here in New York as I believe he was a bellman at the, at the hotel with my dad. And they became best friends. They still are best friends. And eventually Ali was hired at Moody's as a credit risk analyst to do what he had been trained to do. And so he gave my resume. And again, here's this kid with a master's in public policy but no experience. But this is the power of being introduced to opportunities and giving access to opportunities. Mm-hmm. I was interviewed and I was hired by the grace of Nicole Johnson, who saw something in me. I ended up working at Moody's for 12 years. I was a credit risk analyst domestically for 3 years, in Latin America for 3 years, because when they were opening markets in Latin America, they were like, oh, we need someone who speaks Spanish. And someone said, I was like, you know that, that one over there, she speaks Spanish. And I was like, that's me. And all of a sudden, I'm like traveling through to Mexico, to, you know, Spanish Caribbean, all over the place. Tremendous, tremendous career opportunities. And then I managed the company's first foundation. So that was my introduction into the world of social impact from the corporate space. Amazing opportunity. And then I was tapped to be the company's first head of diversity and inclusion. And the way that that came about was a bit, again, of serendipity, but— and being at the right place at the right time. But it was also what I find a thread throughout my career is that sense of curiosity and that sense of the courage that comes from not knowing what bad can happen. So you just do it because you're driven to say something. And you're like, OK, like, I'm just going to try. And what I had seen in the early part of my career at Moody's in the first couple of years— and I learned everything, frankly. I always say I learned everything I needed to learn about being a professional at Moody's, the good, the bad, and the ugly, right? But I had amazing, amazing managers. But I saw really talented and impactful people of color, men and women, quietly sidelined and marginalized. And all of a sudden, right, we'd be having lunch with these colleagues. And all of a sudden, we're like, well, like, where did he go? Like, what did— where did such and such go, right? Mm-hmm. And it was like always in quiet whispers, right? where we would share with each other the, you know, the micro-biases that we were experiencing, right? The microaggressions. I would, for example, get confused for the only other Latina on my floor all the time. We looked nothing like each other. We— she was an executive secretary. I was an analyst. We, like, we were not even in the same spaces in, you know, in the regular workflows, the operational workflows in a day. Like, I was this Latina-looking girl, and she was this Latina-looking girl. And so we were confused all the time. Or how many times I was— I would be stopped and, you know, in an effort to be kind, right? Because many of us, even the kindest and thoughtful people, severely underestimate the impact of our words. Right. I would be stopped and said, oh my goodness, you speak English so well. Like, how is that possible? I was like— I'm like, you know, and now I look at it. And back then, you're like, you're trying to capture words to be able to kind of like figure out how to like, you know, like you're making these quick mental exercises. I was like, will I get fired if I say this? Like, would I do this? Right? And I was just— humor has always been my way. It's a very Dominican thing. It's a very, you know, something very much in my family. Right? And so I would always find humor like, oh, well, how did you learn how to speak English? Right? I was like, you know, I'm like, you know, I learned at school. I'm assuming you did too. Yeah. Yeah. It was, you know, it was these ways of poking humor at what was really hurtful and what was really diminishing. But it was also my way, and it continues to be my way, of connecting with people in a way that didn't shame them the way they were trying to shame me, right?

Right.

And then— 'cause I don't think they were trying to shame me, quite frankly. Just, they didn't know what they didn't know. But it was those kinds of conversations that I could only have with the only— my peers of color, right? Where we would sit down and like, did you hear that? Did you see that? And so I experienced that. And that, And so that's what led me to be the one that would always raise her hand, where it's like, oh, there's a Black MBA conference event. I'll be there. There's an Asian MBA conference event. I'll be there, right? And so I was the one that was attending all these events. And all of a sudden, when the company was forced to create a diversity and inclusion function— and this was in 2007— they were like, well, that one over there. I remember our CFO told me because I actually said— this was the only job, the first job at Moody's that I ever said no to because I was just like, I don't know about this going to HR, right? Yeah. Like, HR is the place you go to when you're in trouble. really well. And, you know, just think about the things that we thought when we were young and dumb. And our CFO came to my office. This was the first time that I learned about the power of sponsorship. She came to my office and she said, why did you say no to that job? And I'm looking at her going like, do you know who I am? I'm like, why are you even here? Who are you? And she never left the frame of the door of my office. I mean, I never forget this. She was just like— she felt so— she was this tiny little woman, but she just felt so powerful to me. She said, you know, I put your name in the hat for that job. And I remember going like, what? What hat? Wow. What name? Like, what are you talking about? Is this how these things happen? And that was my introduction into sponsorship. That was my introduction into the inner workings of power and decision-making in organizations. And it began with that experience. It began with the first time that I was lent an executive coach for the day. My boss, who was the head of HR, lent me her executive coach when I had to build the company's first women's initiative. And I was like, oh, I don't know how to do this. And she's like, well, you know, I'll lend you my executive coach. I mean, she can help you. And Ann-Marie, like a good immigrant, right, I used every minute that she gave me and every bit of wisdom. Yeah. Yeah. after we had built out an entire year strategy. And I was just so wowed by the wisdom and support and just partnership that I was getting. And I remember asking her, I was like, how does one get an executive coach? Like, who has executive coaches? I was just so curious. And she was so sweet. And she looked at me. She's like, oh, honey, you can't afford me. And she's like— back then, I think she was charging $5,000 for the day. Now, it's a whole lot more than that. Mm-hmm. So it was 20 years ago. And then, but then she gave me a bit of, a bit of one of more of her nuggets of wisdom. She said, you know, I'm also coaching your CEO and I'm also coaching the rest of the C-suite. And that was one of those moments, Annemarie, when I realized, like, really, no one does this alone. Wow. Why am I working so hard to, like, prove to everybody, right, that I deserve to be here, that I should be doing this by myself? I need help. I need to ask for help. And those were— there are a lot more examples like that, but those were some of those examples in the early part of my career. From there, I went on to Time Warner, to Disney, to Google, to Viacom. And all of those roles were in diversity and inclusion places, all escalating. And I like to think that I moved up the career ladder like a stealthy ninja, like many of us, kind of like, don't look at me, look at me, don't look at me, right? Yeah. Like, how do I manage this? But it was those early experiences that shaped my, my sense and my understanding of how difference and bias and decision-making and leadership impact all of these moments that we have in the workplace. And that affirmed for me my sense of purpose of shifting the way organizations work. And, and from there, I also became more vocal, right? And so I, you know, and I've— I was involved with organizations like NAMIC along the way. And because of my role usually being one of the only women of color and, you know, corporate leaders in these big brand organizations, I would often get invited to speak at events. And I love talking, right? My family likes to remind myself— remind me all the time that Deisita, which means little Daisy in Spanish, was like, Deisita's stories never end, right? Because I was always like, talking and talking and talking. So I had to learn not just how to be a professional, but also how to communicate professionally within the context of the organizations that I worked with. And many times in that trajectory, in that journey, sometimes being asked to lose my voice, to lower my voice, to become smaller, to, you know, to like just find little corners. And throughout those years, I developed the confidence and the ability to show up like the way that I show up now, which is, which is what some people would say your authentic self. I just call it me. But it was in those moments that, that I, that I realized and learned sharing my story helps others feel seen. Sharing my story also demystifies what for so many of us feels like, like, you know, like I get often asked, how did you make it? And I was like, I don't know. Let me tell you. Right? Right. connects us. And in writing, which I find for me, writing is healing, right? It's how I process things. I think about this quote from Seán Thomas Doherty from Why Bother? And the quote is, because right now there is someone out there with a wound in the exact shape of your words, right?

Yes.

So the question is, why bother writing? Because there's someone there's someone, right? Because right now, there is someone out there. There is someone in this group whose comments that I'm making, whose experiences that I'm sharing are in the exact shape of what you're experiencing and shaping. And if somebody else is out there feeling that, you feel less lonely. And you can learn something. And it doesn't have to be all the things that I'm telling you today. It doesn't have to be everything that I share in my books. But if there's something there that helps you continue to move on your journey with more clarity, with more compassion, with more courage. And I feel like that's my purpose being served.

Oh, Daisy, what a beautiful story. And I wanted to create space, as much space as we needed to get a glimpse of the philosophies that have shaped you, to get that beautiful grandparent story, to get the rich tapestry of growing up in a truly multicultural society and then being told, now become one, right? Become this singular entity. Because I— when I talked to you about your writing, and I think for those of you who don't know, I was so proud of her and I was telling Daisy, never stop writing, for the exact definition of what she described in terms of writing. And if you can ever write your story— Mm-hmm. Please don't question whether you're a good writer. Don't question whether you have the right tenses. Tell your story because there's no other like that. It's just like what we call it— it's just like the, uh, our fingerprints, you know? There's no other like yours. So, Daisy, thank you for this beautiful introduction into just your journey, right?

Oh, thank you, Adri.

Into the ups and downs. And, and what I love about this as well is a lot of times, When let's say, okay, Daisy, to me you've made it. All right, you've made it. You're writing books. You're a speaker. You're this. You're that. You're on boards. You've made it. And a lot of people will come and they say, "I want to be you." And I like to pause and say, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Take that back. Take that back. Take that back." What you are looking at is you want the now, but there's a story to get to now, right? And I love that.

You want to be you. You want to. You want to. You want to. I I tell. I say that when people come like, "Oh, you know." And it's and I think it's part of our culture and. society. And like, I'm like, no, no, I want you to be the best version of you. That's, that's why I do what I do, right? So that you have that, so that we can create the conditions for everyone to be the best version of themselves. And, you know, and I will say that part of why, part of why I wrote my first book, the one of the, one of the biggest drivers for writing my first book was a deep desire to add my name to the canon, right? I had, I, like all of us, I'm sure many of us here, like I've read every leadership book. Like these books are not fit. Like I've read these books. There's more books in my basement, right? I I have I'm curious. I I I've I learned about American culture when I was in an island in the Caribbean because I read right like that. I learned English and you know and how to um I don't think I have a perfect accent, but how to you know how to improve because because I read and I communicated and and I wanted to add my name to that canon. I because I thought my story. was worthwhile. And like many of us, I didn't see our stories there. And there are so many stories. All of you have a story to tell. So I, you know, my— one of my missions, and there's many of us in this space as authors of color, I was like, we're on a mission to get more voices out there so that we can add more to the canon, so that others can see themselves in us, and others can piece together the elements of the story that they want to.

Absolutely. So let's, let's, let's kind of build on this beautiful, beautiful tapestry and history and lens. And let's bring all that, Daisy, to 2025 at Namek at a time when we're talking about DEI. One, I just want us to talk about the metamorphosis of DEI. I use that word very intentionally, right? The metamorphosis of DEI. Yes. I mean, like, from, We're going to create something, a department called DEI. It's going to be in HR. Oh, we really don't know if it belongs in HR because even HR doesn't want it there. Do you remember back then? Even HR didn't want it there, right?

Well, it was recruiting. Diversity originally was only in the recruiting function, and not every company recruiting is part of HR, right? Because recruiting sometimes is when you're in finance like I was, it was part of the business. So yeah, yeah, nobody wanted it. Nobody wanted to touch it,

right? And then now, like, you can— I don't like now. Yeah, you can get a degree. Like, now you can get a degree as a DEI practitioner, right? What kind us through this metamorphosis of DEI and where we are today. And I'll tell you, let me tag on because I hate asking 5 questions in one. Please. But as background to say, I get these calls, Annemarie, what are you going to do? DEI is dying. DEI is changing. DEI. Oh, Annemarie, after January 3rd, DEI, DEI, DEI. I mean, and I laugh at that, right? Because we've been here for 43 years. And I believe in change and how things metamorphosize over time and the lens that we need to apply to that change. So Daisy, as you and this great history you've given us, talk to us about sustaining DEI, even if we call it by any other name. We can call it belonging, we can call it inclusion. There are a lot of names right now being thrown about. A rose to me by any other name will still be a rose, but walk to us, how do we how would you define the difference between a moment and a movement in the context of DEI? Because that's what you and I were talking about. Like, people think that these moments— true that they're moments, but we're creating a movement, a very sustainable movement. Talk to us about that.

Oh goodness. This could also be another like 3-hour session. So first of all, so first I'll talk a little bit very briefly on the the journey of DEI, right? And so when— what— and let's remember, there have always been different names for this work. It has been the same work with different lenses and approaches, but it has not just symbolically but operationally been about creating access and opportunity for talent, right? And perspectives that enable business growth and opportunity. Like, that's it. Mm-hmm. But it, you know, it began with, you know, following the civil rights movement, following Affirmative action, right? Then, you know, it was just like, okay, well, then let's, you know, let's— we have these affirmative action plans. We must hire diverse talent at the same time, right? There, there were these movements globally with, with talent, talent groups and having sort of a scarcity of talent, right? What we used to call the talent shortage, which there's always a talent shortage, right? There's always the war for talent. And all of a sudden, then in the, in the '80s, early '90s, then it became the, you know, it went from the legally compliant piece that you had to do to, oh wait, but it's good for business. Oh, right. I was like, let's make this a business strategy. Haha. Right. And so we started then seeing the professionalization of diversity, equity, and inclusion in organizations, a lot more focused on recruiting. And if you could see it also in supplier, supply chain, processes, right? That's, that's where a lot of these programs grew. Then it became, right, more in the '90s, the right thing to do, right? It's not just good for business, it's good for people. And all throughout these moments, I have to say, there have always been economic waves. And financially, when we're doing well, yay, right? When it goes down, I was like, we cut, right? So you, you, you start seeing those. I, I came into the space in the early 2000s when it really was starting to And it's still not, not what we see it today. But I was like, when it was starting to get more integrated into HR workflows in organizations and in particular industries, finance being one of them, right? Professional services, a little challenging. And CPG, right? Consumer products. Because, oh wait, if we want Black and brown people to buy our products, we need to have people that speak to them and connect with them, right? So you started seeing that growth. And some of my dearest mentors and people that I have learned from, they, you know, that's when they were doing this work. I came in as a, you know, as like this young buck, like, oh, we must figure this out and let's get more Black and brown, you know, credit risk analysts to change the world. And then what we saw, right, you fast forward to 2020 and we've— we all lived through the racial reckoning. And I remember at that time, like many of us, And that's when I wrote my book, Inclusion Revolution. Many of us who had been doing this work for a long time had seen all the ebbs and flows. I actually wrote an article, I think it was April of 2020, before George Floyd was murdered, and it was a piece on LinkedIn. It was to all DEI professionals saying, stay the course. It's like, I've seen these ebbs and flows. This is the time when we double down on this work and continue to demonstrate the value that it adds to businesses and organizations. And then George Floyd, right? Because everybody was starting to let go of all of the D&I programs because they couldn't afford them. And then George Floyd was murdered and all of a sudden there was money, right? All of a sudden there were resources and support and like, let's do this. Let's, you know, let's support our Black employees. Let's support our, you know, Latinos and Asian employees people talk about not as much, right? But I was like, yeah, let's get this going. And what we're seeing now is I think perhaps the most fierce backlash to this work. There's always been backlash. There's always been pushback, right? I, you know, I— the word equity was not something that came, right? It was diversity, then it became inclusion, then it became belonging. And then around 2020, where it's like, that's when the equity piece started getting really sexy and people started— and then it's like just every word, right? Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, right? All of these things. And I've always had a sense of respect and honoring of the language that people choose to use. And then I also have a very practical, pragmatic lens to this work because I really, I really do believe this. And I know, you know, some practitioners do not like me saying this. I don't care what you call it as long as you do it. I really, I, as long as it is driving the impact and change that it needs to, as long as it is, you're hardwiring it into operational workflows in organizations, I was like, I am okay with calling it what you feel is going to be received by all your stakeholders, which also include board members, which also include, you know, your shareholders, your communities, right? It is a complicated thing to run an organization. And I know because I've been on both sides of that. And then to answer your question around the moment and the movement piece, which I loved about what you named this, you know, a moment in the context DEI is often about a reaction, right? So it's powerful, but it's temporary. And it's a response to an event that captures attention, imagination, and that often demands immediate action, right, to appease whatever segment you're feeling is most under attack or most challenging for you. So the good thing about moments is that they can create sparks, right?

Right.

They can bring issues to the surface. Ignite conversation, and they can catalyze awareness. I, in the summer of 2020, with, again, deep respect and honor for George Floyd and the many, many other Black lives that have been lost in violence, I would tell my team, I was like, you never let a good crisis go to waste. Right. This is— if people want to talk about this now, I'm going to talk about it. Right? And I'm going to— and if white supremacy finally Like, people are— like, I have not been able to use those 2 words together, like, ever. A little bit when I was at Google, but even then, people were freaking out. I was like, I'm going to say it, right? Because it's the truth. And I'm going to push it until I can't push any longer. But this is how we create change. And as I wrote in Inclusion Revolution, moments are critical because they remind us of our shared humanity, right? They create opportunities to pause and reflect and see the things that we're unwilling to see on most days, all of us, no matter where we sit and who we are. And that is powerful and beautiful. But moments alone are not enough, right? They're fleeting if they're not paired with sustained effort. And it's that persistence that I push for, right? A movement, by contrast, is a commitment to sustained systemic change. The privilege of knowing so many movement leaders in my life who have dedicated their lives to true movement work, whether it's in reproductive justice, whether it's in racial justice, right? All of these systemic failures that need to be addressed like that. Movements are about building structures, about changing policies, about transforming cultures, that deep, deep and hard work. They require leaders and organizations to act with courage and competence and clarity. And I want to be clear. Courage, competence, and clarity are 3 distinct words, right? They mean very— like, I want people to be brave, but I also want them to be smart at it. And I want them to be clear about this, right, to have situational awareness about how do you drive change. And again, I wrote in Inclusion Revolution that true inclusion is not about performative gestures or quick wins. It's about doing the hard work of reimagining how we work together, how we lead, and how we succeed together.

Oh, I love that. So let's talk about— and to everybody who's listening, we're not going to tell you everything that's in the book. But we're going to kind of touch on those 3 C's that she's talked about and how organizations can operationalize that so that it's in the DNA of how they're doing this work.

Mm-hmm.

What are your maybe 2 to 3 takeaways? Like, when I look at an organization and I say this organization is committed, it's in the movement space, not in the moment reactionary performative space. It is not there. But you want to look at an organization and you're going into it, I mean, I mean, I will be very honest. I remember when organizations were in the performative spaces and you would get all these recruits and then once you go for your second interview, you realize that they really don't even have a budget. They don't even know what they're talking about. And you're supposed to come in and be the messiah that's going to perform wonders, you know, of like organizations that have existed with certain histories for so long. Yeah. So when we talk about in 2025, what should these organizations, especially given those 3 C's that you talk about in Inclusion Revolution, what are the 3 things, just 3 things that we can look at and say, this organization is in the movement space, it is in the creating a DNA of inclusion, a DNA of diversity, a DNA of talent that is representative of the the culture that we live in? And I'm being very broad with those terms.

Yeah.

You know, what does that look like?

First, DEI has to be woven into the fabric of how your organization operates, right? Not treated as an add-on or separate initiatives. And you know that's happening when there are DEI metrics tied to organizational success across the board, not just your people, right? But your— the way you operate as a business, where leaders are held accountable. Right, where there are measurable outcomes. And you're talking about that in the context of business, not in the context of shaming or, you know, public stories. But again, when it is hardwired into your operational workflows. The other piece about this piece is where there's systems, right? So the hardwiring in practices is great. But when you have systems that outlast individuals— Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is just like if I'm the D&I— And for me, my number one goal in every company that I've worked for is to create systems that outlast me. And when I talk to organizations— I just received the most beautiful note from someone who's in the DEI team at Moody's right now, which was my first DEI gig, who told me, I was like, I want you to know that your work continues here, that we still are leading this, and that as part of my onboarding, they gave me your book, right? Like, that to me meant, like, I've done my job. And there's still lots of work to be done, but it is how How do you ensure that systems outlast individuals and that it is institutionalized not just in your workflows, but in your governance and in your oversight, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because that's how you ensure continuity and resilience during not just leadership transitions, but during moments of political resistance like what we're facing now. And, you know, and all of the moments of crisis that organizations experience. And I think that, you know, I was like, the third piece I would say is measure what matters and make sure that it is integrated into your— again, into the lifecycle of your organization. So data tells the story of what's working and also what needs to change. And I'm OK with admitting that DEI hasn't been perfect in organizations. But by the way, no function has, right? Yeah. Again, because I have sat on both sides of this, I have seen— and I recently had spoken to a CEO. when I reminded him, I was like, you know, when the economy went, you know, went through a deep fall, I was like, we reduced our marketing teams, we reduced our digital teams, but we didn't eradicate them because we knew that we would need them for when there was an upturn in the economy. So why are we treating DEI differently when we know that by completely cutting it, all we're doing is having to reinvest not just financial resources, But cultural equity in an organization where people are going to look at you and go like, I don't believe you care because this is the first thing you cut, right? So it is, it is about being, being aware, awake, and, and transparent about what's working and what's not through measuring what matters and making sure that you're treating DEI metrics as seriously as your financial performance metrics. Again, this is that embedding and hardwiring. When these pieces are integrated, you're not just doing something because it's a nice thing to do. You're doing it because it's about ensuring that your business endures.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a business imperative. It's a business imperative. And we know that. We don't have to tell them that. There are amazing articles about that that people can read about. It's a business imperative. But the irony that it's the first thing to go when you're looking at your bottom line, you know, even though I think it costs you more, just like we all know that in hiring, it costs more to get a new person than it is to You just train and recruit new people. So same philosophy there. So let's talk about leaders. There's just a lot of stress right now. Oh my goodness, there's a lot of— this work is hard, Daisy.

Yeah, it is very hard.

This work is really hard. And as you rightly said, when the times are hard, when there's an economic downturn, it becomes even harder, right? You find that institutions that did not have clear measures in place, institutions that had not embedded this into every fabric of what they're doing. All of a sudden, it's on the shoulders of the very few, right? And the very few that have been perhaps courageous, perhaps vocal. What can be done to support leaders who are doing this work? I know you've touched on this in your book, Burnt Out to Lit Up. What would you recommend for sustaining personnel and team energy in this area?

You know, I think that we have to— we're at a moment right now where we have to navigate resistance to change in a highly political environment. And actually, I was just speaking to a CEO today. I'm really, really proud of them, who, you know, who wants to ensure that their DEI leaders are supported throughout this moment, while at the same time recognizing that they're going to have to make some tough changes to their work to protect the business, because otherwise, then they become the next scapegoat in the business, right? Yeah. So it's managing that really thoughtfully, and building strategies to address this resistance and fatigue that comes from it, right? Because to move from a DEI moment to a movement, we have to focus on education, resilience, and again, systems change. We need to acknowledge and address that resistance is going to happen. But we also have to ensure that the people driving this work are supported and energized for the long haul. And in Burnt Out to Lit Up, I emphasize that true progress comes not from rushing the work, but from doing the work with clarity, with courage, and with care. So the way that you prevent burnout in these moments, right, this is very much about prioritizing your personal resilience. And it feels counter to those of us who do this work, right? Mm-hmm. Because our work is about taking care of others, right? And I know this. This is what led to my severe burnout. burnout. It was always just like, I got to take care of this. I got to manage this. And I got to protect myself when I'm managing this. But I don't have enough time. We need to set boundaries that protect our time and our energy by saying no to the things that are not that important and that do not align with our goals or our capacity. Stop overcommitting yourself. We do this all the time. We want to solve all the things. And DEI is Let me be clear. DEI is all the things, but we cannot boil the ocean, right? So what are the 2 to 3 things that you can spend your time and energy doing? Do those well, right? Recharge regularly, right? Integrate restorative practices. There's mindfulness. There's exercise. Exercise works for me. Breathwork works for me. EFT tapping works for me, right? There's so many different practices that we can engage in. Find what works for you and integrate that in your routine. And make sure that while you're doing that, right, when we are restoring our nervous systems, that we're also reflecting with intention. We are reminding ourselves of why we do what we do because it can be very easy to forget when you are constantly under attack. Why do I even get up to fight this fight? Mm-hmm. Why do I even do this, right? So you have to remind yourself and surround by— yourself by people that will remind you. you, right? Or find the inspiration where you need it. Because fostering that kind of energy in yourself helps you foster it in teams, right? I think about it as contagious positive energy, right? Like that is— that I think is one of my superpowers is being able to inspire and engage folks with real practice, right? Not like just like la la la la la, right? I was like, this is how we get things done. But I was like, I believe in you. You've got this, right? Like, this is how we do this. So we have to celebrate wins. as small and as distant as they may feel. We have to create safe spaces to be able to say the things that we— that build so much shame in us and create so much weight for us. And we have to encourage support because community is what's going to save us, right? Right. Let's remember, I was like, all of these things that are being said, all this stuff, it's like they're meant to distract us. So see them as what they are. and protect your energy and say, not today, because I have agency over this. This is my zone of control. It may be a tiny little zone, but this is my zone of control. So it's like, this is what I'm going to control. And when I control this, I can show up as the best version of myself and help others do the same.

Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Please buy the book. I mean, hire me. I'm your marketing person.

I love you. I love you.

I love you. All the actions are in this book. Can you all believe we have about 5 minutes to go. So Daisy, as I'm thinking about, we've talked, oh my gosh, I think we should do like a part 2 and a part 3.

Yeah.

Because I'm looking at the comments and people are like, yeah, we are burnt out. This is really good advice. This is hard work. So it's resonating with those that are listening. Let's think of like one piece of advice that, or action you hope everyone on the call can take away from this discussion to contribute to building this movement that we're talking about?

Oh my gosh. I think— yeah. This is so much because I do think the future of this work lies, again, in hardwiring it into our business strategies, addressing intersectionality, leveraging technology, AI, responding to generational and global shifts, right? That's why I say I was like, DEI can be all the things. But what is it that is critical and matters most in your organization? And how can you be a part of driving that change to drive that value for your organization, right, that allows you to do that? I would say that my key takeaway from this, it's, you know, and I actually want to leave it as a, if you let me, as a challenge for this group, right? Yes, of course. Like, before you leave this conversation, I want you to identify in your head, right, or write it down, one action you can take to advance DEI within your team, within your organization, within your community, whatever space and zone of influence you have. And maybe it's mentoring someone from an underrepresented group or a DEI colleague, advocating for more inclusive hiring practices, starting a conversation about belonging, starting a conversation about like, what's this hot mess we're all in and how do we get there, right? Write it down and share it with someone for accountability, right? Because there's nothing more powerful than having an accountability partner. And then commit to starting it within the next 30 days. That's, that's my challenge for you, because true movements— and we're talking about DEI movements today, but I think about movements in general, impactful movements— are built through small, intentional steps taken by many of us. Not grand gestures, not look at me, this is what I'm doing, but it's just small steps that we're all taking, passing the baton, when we're too tired, right? I'm going to pass it on to you. I was a first responder. Think about it in terms of the tremendous crisis that we're— that so many are feeling now. It's like there's first responders that are doing their jobs, and there are people that are taking the weight from them and feeding them and taking care of them. And then there are others in broader communities and many of us who are everywhere else, right? It is all of those small actions because your action, no matter how small, matters and drives change. And we can each be the spark that ignites change around us.

Oh, so well said, so well said. So I'm not even going to add to that because that was just a beautiful call to action and so motivational. But I do want to do our rapid fire. I promised you we would have a rapid fire.

Yes.

And I, you know what's phenomenal is nobody's asked a single question. They just love you. They're just soaking it all in. Oh my goodness.

I was just— Oh, they're still here.

They're here. They're here. I see them. No one's asking questions, but Daisy, what book are you reading now?

Oh my goodness. You know, I am— it's in Spanish. It is Gina Montaner's Deséenme un Buen Viaje. She's the mother of a good friend who writes about her father having Alzheimer's and in his last days. And it's beautiful. I don't get to read in Spanish often. And I also, I don't get to read stories like this because I write— I read a lot of management books. So it's a beautiful story, and it feels special because it's someone that I know, deeply impactful.

Awesome. Who's your favorite comedian?

Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Who's my favorite comedian? Oh my gosh, I can't even think of— I can't think of anybody right now, but I love I love— I can't remember his name, but he's the— he's this young Latino on SNL. And I think everything that comes out of his mouth is just hilarious. And oh my gosh, I can't remember anyone's names. And then Butoh. What's her first name? Also, I just saw her special on LinkedIn. And it was in Radio City Hall. And it was just like phenomenal. But I'm drawing a blank on their names. They're brilliant.

No worries. Assuming you and I met, because we haven't met in person.

Yes, Michelle Bryan. Michelle Bryan. OK, great. Michelle Boutot. Yeah.

Awesome. Assume you and I met. What's the one dish you'd say I have to eat and why?

Oh, always pastelón de plátano maduro is sweet plantain casserole. It's a Dominican dish. It's sweet plantain. Most people have it with meat. I like it with like four different cheeses, and it is the dish my family knows I want all the time, and it is my comfort food. I go to the supermarket around the corner, and I whenever I see sweet plantain. My family knows we're gonna have— I'm just— I can make it right away. And I'm like, this is— I get that sustains me.

That's amazing. What's the one thing when you look back that you thought was actually like a negative, but it turned out to be such a positive as you've— as you reflect back?

I have so many of those moments. I think that every— almost every moment in an organization when I either did not get get the promotion or the role that I wanted, it always— it was that. And I think that it's— I think it's in the Bible. I'm probably going to misquote it. But it's about looking at things not as rejection, but as protection. And in many ways, they have— I have been protected so much throughout my life, even in moments where I was like, I should have gotten that. And then I was just like, oh, no, actually, That's, that's, that's fine. That wasn't meant for me.

Fantastic. It is 5:30. Daisy, oh my goodness, an hour was not enough. I have really enjoyed our conversation. I have enjoyed the nuggets that you've shared with our audience today. I have learned so much from just being here with you. And, and to everyone, thank you for giving us the gift of your time. This is— I've always said this, it's not something I take lightly, that you can get everything back, you know? And even now, as we're thinking about our brothers and sisters in California and the wildfires, and there's so much happening, and then there's a part of me that says, you know, there are some mementos they may not get back. But let me tell you, time, time for sure, you can never get back.

Yes. Oh, goodness. Can I— Annemarie, I just want to make sure, because I just saw that— I think it's Kate— now I lost her. Kate Butcher just asked about my opinion on companies who have terminated their DEI programs.

Yes.

Meta. And those who have been steadfast with their DEI initiatives, Cisco. What I think is expect more of that. Expect more of those who really, you know, just cave to this because they really did not mean this work in the first place. And expect those who are tying it to their business and who understand this as critical to their talent pipelines and their ability to succeed to push and reintegrate and reimagine this work. So there's going to be a lot more of that. And so just, just be on the lookout for it.

Thank you. Thank you for addressing that. But everybody, be optimistic. It is, it is a time for change. It is a time to reimagine the way we do the work. What encourages me more than ever is for the companies that are in the movement space, as we defined, these companies are embedding it in the fabric of everything they're doing, whether it's the suppliers, whether it's retention, whether it's recruitment, whether it's also based on performances and raises. I've seen some companies have tied this to executive raises. So please, let's also— That's tricky. Yeah, let's look at the positives that are happening in this space because it's a time of sifting, right? Those that did it for performative reasons and those that really meant to do this. And as you're thinking of where you belong and what that looks like, continue to explore exactly what Daisy said, that you will know them by their fruit, right? And you cannot plant lemons and reap oranges. And I've always said that, look for the fruit, look for the product, look for the outcome of that. Daisy, once again, thank you. Everybody, thank you for being with us. This is Name It. I've been your host, Annemarie Burton, with the most lovely Daisy. And we hope to see you next month as we continue to have this conversation. Thank you. Stay empowered, and we appreciate you. Until next time, bye.

Thank you, everyone.

Bye.