Anger Is a Compass: How Founders Turn Emotion into Clarity

All right, welcome to Heart of Entrepreneurship. I'm here, this is Jesse Pujji with Dave Kashen, and this is a podcast all about building, starting, running companies, uh, from a place of heart as opposed to a place of fear, or using clean fuel versus dirty fuel. What's up, Dave?

What's up, Jesse?

Um, all right, I got a juicy topic for you, and just so everyone knows, Dave, that we never like think about this ahead of time, so this is I like podcasts that are just totally off the cuff.

Yes.

I don't know. Do you like that, Dave? I do.

It's fun and it just feels very real.

All right. So my topic today is anger. And I'll set it up in a couple of ways. I don't have a detailed agenda, so I'm going to just kind of follow my curiosity with you. But, you know, there's like the classic sort of like asshole CEO Steve Jobs kind Dave Kashen comes to mind where he just belittles people and makes them feel horrible. And then sometimes people are like, "Oh, but he got me to do work I never thought I could do." And then people take that archetype and they play with it. So, I think there's that version of anger. I think there's like— I think anger has become, I'd say, less in vogue, but it's not like people don't feel it in the business context. So, that's another thing I'm curious about. Um, yeah, when is anger helpful? When is it not helpful? How does somebody think about it?

Hmm, I, I'm curious if there's something you're angry about that had you want to choose this topic.

I don't think— well, I'm sure there is. I, I don't think there's anything that's super present for me. I, I think, I think it's something that I, that I myself have gone on a journey around, right? Like, I think, I think I used to kind of do the, like, Hey, I'm candid and I'm going to tell you what's on my mind. And oftentimes I came across others as hurtful. And then someone told me that and gave me the feedback. And I forget, I forget the matrix that Radical Candor has, like when you don't care about—

care personally, challenge directly is the—

so if you don't care personally and you challenge directly, what is it? It's like you're a jerk or something.

Yeah. Obnoxious aggression, I think they call it.

Yeah, so I don't— I mean, I think if you'd asked me if I cared about people, I would have said yes at that time, but I'm not sure that I truly did because I was like so caught up in myself. But I would be— obnoxious aggression sounds a little rough, but maybe that's what it was. And then it kind of became like I just, just held my tongue. And then I've worked on being able to kind of like share feedback in a way where I'm still caring But I think, I think there's like a— yeah, I still think it's a thing for me that I'm not like, I'm not totally clear on anger.

Yeah. Well, to flesh out that Radical Candor framework for a second, right, that the sort of y-axis is like we said, whether you care personally or especially whether the person feels like you care about them as a person. And the x-axis is essentially whether you challenge them directly or don't. The— so that, yeah, the, the lower right is that obnoxious aggression. Like, I challenge them, but they don't feel like I care, so it just feels like I'm being a jerk and kind of push— like whipping them, you know? Like, like if you're— if you feel like a widget in the company's machine and they're trying to squeeze more out of you, like, that's the feeling. But the other piece, and why I think this conversation is particularly important is the— I think it's the upper left quadrant where you do really care about people. And because we tend to think anger is something bad or negative, and because we tend to want to, you know, hero or protect people from feeling sad or down or low morale, we end up in this upper left quadrant where we care about them, but we don't actually challenge them. And that quadrant is called ruinous empathy. And I think that's a really important— I think that's maybe even more common these days than the obnoxious aggression, right? You know, obviously the upper right quadrant where you care personally and challenge directly is the radical candor one. Um, and I forgot what they call the bottom left one, but if you neither care nor challenge them, then that's just silly. Um, So, this thing about ruinous empathy is like, "Oh, I don't want to hurt their feelings," or, "Anger is bad. I don't want to be a jerk. So, I'll just not tell them or not challenge them to rise to their greatness or give them the direct feedback." And it's ruinous in that they don't have a chance to improve. And then down the road, you may end up needing to let them go. Or they're just kind of floundering in a role where they're not thriving in, which is a, you know, a lose-lose because they didn't know, right, like what they needed to do to improve. So I just, I think that's really important to, um, mention because I think that's where most people are. I think most people are less candid, less authentic than they could be, than I would say is optimal for both their own and the wellbeing, you know, their own wellbeing and that of their team. And I think it is because we are not very comfortable with anger and it's gotten a pretty bad rap, I think, over the years.

Yep.

And like, this is super personal for me, this conversation, because, you know, neither my mom nor my dad expressed much anger around me. My parents were divorced. I had a stepdad who got angry and he was, you know, for lack of a better term, this blue-collar guy. And I, like, in my mind I was like, oh, anger is like the uncivilized.

Oh wow.

Sort of like Neanderthal, lower class, you know, where if you're not, if you're not a civilized, you know, right, human being, then you just get angry.

You can't control yourself.

Yeah, you can't control yourself and you have a temper. You had a temper. And I was like, oh God, that's I definitely don't want to be like that.

It's uncouth.

It's uncouth. It's, it's, um, yeah, it's like, yeah, like Neanderthal, right? It's animalistic, right? It's sort of this idea that like, oh, we're, we're these evolved humans. Animals get violent and, you know, we have to control our animal nature. And so I think anger gets, at least for me, it got wrapped up in all of that. Um, and luckily I married a woman who was very comfortable with her anger. Expressing anger, um, and is an Enneagram 8, for those who know. It's like the, you know, the, um, say what's on their mind. Yeah, very comfortable with like, you know, uh, express it. Yeah, say what they're— what's on their mind, you know, being fierce, being challenging. And honestly, early on, um, I really shut down. I mean, one thing that's funny, actually, I tell this story about like how I knew She was the one. Just in contrast to previous relationships, I had this experience where, you know, we were— it was early in our dating. I was doing my first startup. I was working a lot. And she asked me to help her, like, move her TV or something. And I said I would or move it in or whatever. And then I didn't because I was working late and she was really mad that morning. You know, like the next morning, like, you know, you said you'd help me. You didn't. Like, really angry. And so we went, you know, I went to work, she went to work, and basically I'm like, oh God, like, is it— are we done? You know, like, is— you know, like, like, I'd never experienced someone express that level of anger and not have it be like some real significant thing. Um, so all day I was just off. I was like nervous. I really, you know, really liked her. I was like really off. And then she calls me at the end of the day. I'm like, oh God. She's like, hey, how was your day? I'm like I was like, it was good, but like, aren't you like—

don't you hate me?

Yeah, like, aren't you mad? She's like, no, I was mad this morning.

I told you I'm no longer mad.

Yeah, I was like, oh, that's a thing? Like, you can just express your anger and be done with it?

So, uh, did your parents get divorced? Like, they never— they never had like blowout fights or anything like that? They just—

correct.

One day they walked in and said, we are Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. It was like, yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, I was only 5, so it was already confusing. But yeah, there was no visible tension, disagreement, upset. And I think a lot of parents think, oh, I need to protect my kids from anger. But yet it was—

were they not fighting at all? Or were they just doing it behind the scenes?

I don't think they were fighting much.

I think there just wasn't— it wasn't— there wasn't anger, period.

Yeah. Which I think may have been some of the issue, frankly. Right.

Right.

From my experience now, like, the best relationships are forged through the fire of conflict and being able to actually get closer through conflict, you know, navigate disagreement, express anger, and realize you can be with all that, not sweep it all under the rug and pretend everything's okay. Um, so I think that may have been some of the issue, but it was certainly confusing for me. Um, so all that is to say, I And then, you know, when my wife Corinne, when she would get mad at me, really mad, like I often felt like the relationship was at risk and I would get sad and kind of shut down. Basically, I just couldn't be with anger, hers or mine. I was totally disconnected from mine.

Right.

And so, you know, this is, as I said, this topic's very near and dear to my heart. So I've, I had to learn to be with her anger, other people's anger, and my own. And those two things are very connected, right? It's really just anger. So whether it's, you know, hers or mine, I just had to learn to be with it.

Um, let's, let's start with the most basic question. What is anger?

Yeah, well, you know it when you feel it. You know, most people— the, the way I typically describe it that I think is most useful is that anger is the energy of boundaries. So if you take the idea that, like, um emotions are different forms of energy, right? Like emotion, energy in motion. Um, like if you go back to like, how do you know when you're feeling anything? You know, we'll start broadly. There's literally some physical sensations. It's like energy moving through your body in some way. And so you feel some physical sensations, you might have some associated thoughts. For me, when I feel anger, like, I actually feel like my jaw a little bit, my neck, my shoulders kind of tensing. You know, I guess in the fight or flight or freeze kind of frame, it's fight. You know, it's like this, like, I want to— I feel threatened, so I want to fight, you know, as a way to defend. But ultimately, I, yeah, I think it's most useful to think of, you know, if each of the emotions are a different kind of energy, they're representing different things. Like sadness is the energy of letting go, joy is energy of celebration, etc. Anger is the energy of boundaries. So, you know, that's, that maybe that's too abstract, you know. What are boundaries? Like, you can think of it a couple different almost degrees. Like if you want something and you're not getting it, often you feel frustrated, which is a light form of anger, right? Could just be as simple as that. Like, oh, I was really, you know, I went out to dinner and I was really excited to order my favorite dish and they ran out of it. Not a huge, I might feel some disappointment, but I might feel a little grrr, like, ah, that's annoying, you know? Or like, you know, some customer service rep puts me on hold for 7 minutes. Grrr, like I want to, I just like, I want this thing to be efficient. I don't like, this isn't what I want to do with my time.

Right.

So really simply, like, if you— if there's something you want and you're not getting it, or if there's something you don't want and it's happening, often we feel anger. It's just like, it's like life isn't going the way I want it. Um, you know, I almost think of like wants versus needs versus like, you know, must-haves. But, you know, the, the values is another way to think about it. Like, if I really value you know, integrity and people being on time, and someone shows up late, like, I'll feel anger because my values are being violated, right? There's just— it's like there's this way that I am oriented, or there's things that I want, there's things that I value, there's things that are really important to me, there's things that are must-have for me. And when those things are violated, um, the— that energy of like boundary violation kicks in, and I, you know, I feel anger. It's a way to sort of protect those boundaries.

What— and I just to differentiate it for myself, like the, you know, you, you picture that you're gonna, uh, I don't know, you're gonna have this like huge party or something like that, or you're gonna go on this really beautiful trip, and then it rains the whole trip. And most people wouldn't be mad about that, they'd kind of be sad about that. And, and so it's almost like I had this expectation and then it didn't happen, now I'm disappointed. Disappointed.

Disappointment is like sadness versus someone said they were going to come and they don't come. Yeah, to the party, let's say.

Yeah, yeah.

Which there's some disappointment, but, but probably there it's like, I expect, you know, people to honor their word, or, or I, um, I thought they, um, let's see what would cause the anger there. I think that's probably it.

It's like if something that you I don't know, I'm thinking like hope versus expected, and then the expectation doesn't take place, or you're, um, I'm trying to think of like, do people get mad about situation— like, I guess people get mad about traffic. I've never really seen somebody get too mad about the weather. I'm just, I'm just exploring that.

Like, yeah, you might, um, but yeah, you're— I think one of your thing What you're asking about is like, when— what's likely to cause sadness versus anger? Um, so I'm with you. Like, if I think about sadness or disappointment, it's like there's something I need to let go of, right? So I had this expectation that it would be this way and it's not this way. So I was like, aww.

Like, um, versus something I don't— you were saying earlier, something you don't want.

Yeah.

It's like you're pushing something off away and being like, I don't want this.

Yeah, I don't want it, or I want this, and it's like I can't— something's in the way of it, like something is blocking it, you know. So it's, um, I guess it feels more like fight, where sadness is a little bit more like maybe flight or freeze kind of response. Um, but I think this, this issue of it, it's violating something feels important. Or like sadness is not— like the weather is not violating my sovereignty or my, you know, values. It's just kind of like, oh, it's a— it's just a bummer.

Whereas, um, yeah, it's also like this hot energy. I mean, like, in my head I keep picturing the guy from Inside Out who's got like fire coming out of his head and he's red and he's like, yeah, and he's yelling and he's, uh, yeah, I feel it.

It certainly feels like fire, you know, like a passion fire. And what's interesting about that is, um, you know, if you— and we talk more about what do you do about anger— but if you like fully welcome the anger, there's often some sense of like determination, because so it is a fire, there's a fire. It's like, I really want this thing, or this is really important to me and it's not happening. And so if you resist the anger, it can, it can like leak out in like these reactive ways, throw a tantrum or, or yell at somebody or try to cut somebody down or, you know, make them feel bad. Um, because the energy wants to move, right? I mean, ultimately this is what causes violence, I think, is if we don't know how to be with anger. When I say be with, I mean like just allow it, welcome it, be with it, right? Like, um, oh, I know, you know not let it sort of overtake you, but it can be in your space, right? Like, oh, I'm aware anger is here and I, you know, oh, okay, I can locate in my body. It's like, oh, I feel the heat in my shoulders. I feel the maybe pressure in my head. You know, I feel my jaw lock, like, urgh, like I can feel that anger. But if you can be with that, you can then sort of channel it into like, okay, there's something I really want here or there's some, boundary I haven't set that I need to set here, right? It's like, it can be this real sense of determination. Like, I'm thinking of Gandhi and, you know, the, the, you know, Indian sovereignty, uh, against the British. And it was like, it was this sense of like real determination, um, indignation, you could even say, right? Like, this is not okay, right? Which is a real feeling of boundary.

Yeah.

But if you can't be with it That's where violence, I think, generally happens. It's because the energy wants to move through you. So if you don't, if you don't find a healthy, safe way to move it, it'll just, it'll come out, right? You might scream, you might punch, hit, kick, right? Like, this is, this is how I think violence happens, is we bottle up the anger and at some point it just explodes out of us. So I think a practice of learning to be with anger in healthy, safe ways And, you know, Joe Hudson said this, that like for some reason we think there's two choices. Like either we can like hold it all in, you know, and like repress it, or we can scream and yell at people, right? But like, you know, there's this other way, which is you find a healthy, safe way to move it through you. And, um, like I have— I don't know if I've shared this, but, you know, I have a wiffle ball bat in my bedroom. Yeah. And I got this idea from Diana Chapman, you know, from Conscious Leadership Group. She said she had like anger stations in her house, and if someone's angry, it's like, okay, go to the anger station. Because the recognition that like it's a physical thing that want— you know, it's energy that wants to move. And so if I'm feeling it, you know, there's times where I'm feeling like a little frustrated and I can just like welcome it, right?

Located in my body, like, sigh really loudly.

Yeah. Or am I— I might— yeah, sometimes it's enough just to breathe in. Like, I'll breathe in and through it. Like, you know, welcome anger. But if it's a little more intense, sometimes it's really useful to go take the wiffle ball bat and just, uh, just bash, you know, my pillow on my bed, which is safe, it's healthy, I'm not getting hurt, no one's getting hurt. But I, I'm able to move that anger. Or if I don't have a wiffle ball bat, um, I learned this like qigong technique, which is like chopping wood. You're just like, yeah, you know, and if you combine like the sound and the movement, so it's like, ha, right? You can feel like, oh, that's like, there's something really moving.

So I go in my car and hit my steering wheel because cars are like such a private space in some sense. Yes, it's like a really enclosed room, and like you can yell really loud and no I can really hear you.

Yeah, I think that's a good— again, healthy, safe, you're not scaring each other.

I've also— another one I've done is like, I let Ricky in particular, who gets really angry, my son, I just like let him punch my hands, and it almost always brings him— like, you can—

he can—

not as so much to the point where he like wants to do that, because he knows that when he's feeling it, it'll like— it'll bring him down. Why is it— it seems like anger— I don't know if this is true, but it seems like anger is a very often— more often than almost any other feeling directed at other people? Like, anger and blame seem to live together. Like, when you talk about punching someone else, it's typically— or yelling at someone else, or chewing someone out— like, it's like, oh, I'm angry, and like, you're the cause of my anger, so I'm gonna—

I'm gonna take that on you. So, um, well, first, I think that's a really important distinction.

Ang—

like, feeling anger, you know, being with anger versus anger at. Yeah, right. And I think people, even when they sometimes hear, oh, anger can be healthy, it's important to feel your anger, I'm not really— I'm not advocating for like, go get angry at people. Yeah, yeah, because that, yeah, that tends to come from blame. It's, it's a, you know, it's below the line. You're likely not taking responsibility. It's generally— unless the person gives you permission, like, okay, like, I know you need to get it out, just get it out. But that's like in a particular context. So I think that's an important distinction. Like, I think it's really valuable to express anger in a healthy, safe way. Um, but like, I wouldn't even, you know, even if you're like in your bedroom, you know, if you're saying like, you know, screw you, you know, wife, like, and she can hear you, like, that's I would, I'd be careful with that, right? So I like going in her car, etc. Um, to your question, why does that happen?

But it's like, it's like someone yelling at the airline agent. Like, I'm just imagining all the scenarios where you see anger, or even oftentimes experience anger, and it always almost feels like it's directed at another person.

I think because it's fight, right? Like, if you think about the difference between the flight response and the freeze response and the fight response like generally the fight is with someone, or, you know, in the case of traffic, like some, you know, a car, right? Like that we perceive as attacking us. So I think that's kind of the mechanism of it. It's like we perceive threat, right? Which is synonymous with go below the line, right? Um, and then anger is the fight response that's like, uh, you, you made me angry, you cut me off in traffic. Right, road rage, right? Which again, I think a lot of it is because we just have so much repressed anger, you know, that it just— though, you know, I know for me for a long time, and maybe still, um, I would like— I was such a jerk with customer service reps, right? Anonymous, never see them again, you know, like, yeah, they're not— that's where I would let my anger come out, like, are you kidding me, that's a stupid policy, you know, such like unhealthy—

I could never picture you doing that.

That's I know, but that's, that's my secret, secret anger expression is customer service reps.

These poor customer service reps are America's therapists.

Thank you for allowing us to vent our anger. Um, like, yeah, travel planning. Even last night we're doing some travel planning and my wife's like, wait, can we do this in a way where we're not getting frustrated? Like, that's, that's one of my, uh, places where I let it out. So I, yeah, I think, I think it's something about that fight, you know, reaction that, um, it does— it feels like something is attacking us and we want to attack back as our defense reaction. I think that's why it tends to be at other people. Um, it's also probably the scariest, um, so it might be most in our awareness too of like when you see someone angry at someone or experience someone angry at you, it can be pretty scary, right? Because it feels— again, it can feel like an attack, and sometimes it is an attack, right? And, you know, in the form of violence. So, you know, I guess an inherent question is like, so is anger good? Is it bad? Is it like— when is it good? When is it bad? Um, I think anger itself is, um, a feeling, and all feelings are valuable. And, you know, I'd say good, not bad, in that they're, um, something that occurs in nature, right? In our, in our human nature, um, anger occurs. It's an experience we have.

Most people think anger is bad though.

Yes. So most— I think most people think anger is bad because most people express anger, you know, from below the line in unhealthy, blamey, at, sometimes violent ways.

And I think most people have either been subject to anger as, as children themselves, or they watch their parents, uh, fight it. Or in— funny, it's funny, in your case it's the opposite. You didn't see it, so then you thought it was this Neanderthal. So I think very few people have ever seen it I mean, maybe the thing that's bad, to the extent we want to make that judgment, is like people expressing it in unhealthy ways, which is basically 99% of the way anger shows up.

Yeah, I think that's the issue. It's most commonly expressed in unhealthy ways. It can feel really out of control, which is scary both for the person who feels it and the recipient. And obviously violence, you know, is a, um, certainly something that can have really harmful effects, you know, and does. So I think most people never developed a healthy relationship with anger, self-included, you know? And so it tends to either get repressed, and by the way, when it gets repressed, it can then be inward. Like, I actually think I've learned in the last like year or two, a lot of depression is actually anger repressed and then therefore at self. What's wrong with me? I'm bad. I'm broken, right? So that's another form where it can kind of leak out in unhealthy ways when it's anger itself, this really loud inner bully, inner critic. You, you know, you're terrible. You're, um, and so there's like the raw emotion of like, okay, there's something that isn't, um, serving me, you know. There's something that is, um wants to be stopped, right? Like, and, and so there's a, there's a wisdom to anger, right? It's like, I, I think all emotions are a form of love, and it's trying to show us something.

So what's— so let's do the healthy— so in, in a, in a theoretical ideal world where anger—

you were—

oh, let's, let me do it this way. Convince me that anger is good, Dave. How, how would I know that it's good? And, and how would I know— what would it look like to know that?

And Well, I'm remembering, um, when I just gotten back from a retreat and was feeling particularly cracked open and sensitive and more able to tune into my feelings, or maybe even, or maybe less able to repress them, you know, like I was just feeling my feelings more. And you, I think, canceled last minute on me Right? Um, and I felt angry, and I, um, I noticed that and I expressed it to you. I was like, Jesse, like, I'm angry. You know, there's this pattern where you keep like canceling our meetings or trying to reschedule them last minute, and like, not okay with me. I want you to hold our sessions as sacred. And also I want you to like really look at this pattern, like what, what's going on? And well, you could share your experience of that, but my recollection is it actually served you to be on the receiving end of that, feel challenged in that way, and you got to see and face something you maybe hadn't fully been seeing or facing.

Yeah, I think it, it helped me just get more organized, which was helpful. Although, but I will say in that instance, like I, the initial part of it was not like it left me feeling like some abandonment fears around our relationship because you've been such an ardent supporter of mine. So I didn't actually like—

you didn't like it.

It wasn't comfortable, but I'm not even sure I would describe it as good. Like it had a little bit of a little bit of dammit, like a little bit of like, hey, wait a second. Like, you know, we've had our unconscious commitments or whatever around our scheduling and— but yeah, I don't know. That one was medium. I mean, it was fine. It served me fine, but it was like— and I have my own issues probably with like my dad or whatever, just anger from feeling like a bad person, or that some important relationship was under threat because of some bad thing I did. Like, that was— that's what kind of sparked for me.

Well, as I hear you say that, I'm like, ah, you know, sounds like there's even more goodness to come out of you noticing your reaction to me feeling anger.

But I guess my, my— and when my head, I was thinking more of the version where Um, yeah, I, you know, I'll use examples. Maybe like someone I work with, I keep noticing that I'm getting frustrated when I work around them.

Yeah.

And rather than taking it out on them, although sometimes it happens not by per— on purpose, I'm like, ah, man, ah, and like I feel the energy. And then I'm like, you know what, this person doesn't belong here anymore. Like, and I can let them go in a way that doesn't feel bad for them. It doesn't feel bad for me, but it's like a healthy They're like, and I don't know if I'm doing this right or wrong or whatever, but it's like the anger being feeling it and acknowledging it, but then not necessarily directing it at the other person.

Yeah.

And but instead directing the boundary at the other person, which is to say like, hey, I'm realizing like I keep feeling frustrated. I probably like this probably is not a fit. I just don't like my own frustration.

Is a signal to me that like something isn't working, something isn't flowing, something isn't serving. Yeah, something wants to be stopped. And I find it useful to direct that question both outward and inward, and usually I can find value in both. So if, okay, anger's here, okay, what's not serving me or us, you know, what wants to be stopped? Um, so the obvious, or the, the more obvious thing usually is something out there. Trying to think of like a good example. Like my kids on screens, you know, like kids are— they're spending a lot of time on screens. I notice I feel angry. So first I'm like, okay, what wants to be stopped out there? And I'm like, oh, well, I need— I want to stop them, you know, being on screen so much. I think it's not healthy for them. Um, but I also find if I ask myself like, okay, and what wants to be stopped in here? Like, I'll— it's a version of taking 100% responsibility. I'll always find something like, okay, there's some pattern that I'm doing. So in, in this case, I think what I got was like, oh yeah, like my desire to connect with them, or really my fear of disconnection from them, is in the way of me actually setting boundaries. So like the way I view is like, okay, love is trying to alert me to like, hey, there's some, there's some pattern that is not actually serving you that wants to be stopped, right? Yeah. And so that was really useful In that case, the action was the same, you know, hey, um, and you know, I think we've talked about this, but I really like this distinction of, um, like boundaries don't require the other person to do anything.

Yep.

Right. Boundaries are something that you do. So like I used to say to, to my kids, okay, like you have, you know, you have to be off your screens by 9. Or even we have an agreement. Okay, we agree you're going to be off by 9, but like, those are really just like requests or even agreements. It's different than, hey, at 9 o'clock, I'm going to come upstairs and take your screens away. That's a boundary. It's just, it's like hitting a wall. It's like, or hey, if you keep exhibiting this behavior, I'm going to let you go, you know, from our company. That's a boundary, right?

Um, I'm gonna stop paying you. Like, sure.

Yeah.

Which is really what, what a firing someone is effectively, right? Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change your access and I'm gonna stop paying you a paycheck. Yeah.

And look, it, like, even in relationship, right? Like, if it gets to that point, like, hey, if this behavior continues, I'm, you know, I'm gonna leave you, or, you know, in a romantic relationship, or I'm gonna sleep in a different house, or I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna meet another person. Or even a micro version of it could be, um, hey, like, I don't like the way you're speaking to me. I'm going to leave the room for 10 minutes and I'm going to come back, and if you're ready to speak to me differently, then we can continue this conversation, right? And, um, I really like this notion that, like, boundaries actually enable you to keep your heart open. Another way that, like, anger is coming from love, it's like, okay, I, I, I'm, I'm having difficulty staying, like, keeping my heart open in this condition. So I'm going to set a boundary so that I don't be with you with my heart closed, because I don't want to have to protect myself, you know. So I, like, I set the boundary so that I can keep my heart open. Like, I'm not blaming you for, you know, yelling at me or being below the line, but I don't want to be with it. So I'm going to remove myself to take care of myself so I can keep my heart open. Versus usually it's like, uh, and then we start blaming each other, and, you know, when we don't set good boundaries.

Right. So the name of this podcast is Heart of Entrepreneurship, and we're all— we're standing for building companies with heart and with love.

Yes.

What's the— like, maybe we can spend the rest of the time, like, what's— for a founder who was committed to that and wants to do that, or just even curious about what it looks like, how would you envision them? How would they— like, how would anger— how would you envision them relating to anger and using anger and So first and foremost, if you don't—

if you know that you're someone who like represses anger, you're like, well, I don't even get angry, right? There you could be that one, like, no, I'm just— I'm cool as cucumber, I'm kind. Um, I want you to know what you're, you're missing is attunement to your wants and needs. So probably you're going to end up overly accommodating your team, other people, and you're going to create this lose-win where you lose and they win. And at some point, you're going to get angry. Like, it, it, it'll build and build, and then you'll have like resentment. And right, like, often we'll, we'll hero other people in the sense of like put their wants and needs ahead of ours or try to protect them from feeling something, you know, protect ourselves, um, from feeling something. So when we're not in touch with our anger, we're not clear about what we really want and need.

So step one in this guide, we're going to— if we were to write a tweet or something, step one is feel anger. And if you think you don't feel anger, get really curious on if that's true or not, because every human being— not every human being doesn't feel the same amount of anger necessarily, I don't think, based on both nature and nurture, but sure, but everybody at some point gets a little heated, gets a little tense, gets a little— everyone feels that. And so if you're not feeling that, the first step is probably get real curious as to— as to—

and you might even need— you might even want to like fake it, fake it till it becomes real. Like, I went to the Hoffman Process, and without revealing much, there are parts where you are bashing things to, you know, express your anger. And I remember being like, I don't— I'm just like, I've done this work already around my parents or whatever. Like, I, I'm not really angry about it anymore. And I'm like, but okay. And then about like a couple minutes in, it went from like I'm faking it to I'm accessing it. So like, if it's really repressed, sometimes just going through the motions of you know, screaming and bashing and actually enable you to, you know, access that repressed energy.

So I would say even like the more ridiculous that sounds to you, the more you probably need to do it.

Right, right.

If you're like, oh, you're like, what are you talking about? That's absurd. Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, I often feel like the more embarrassing or weird an activity, probably the more useful it is because it's other— because it's unfamiliar, that's why it's uncomfortable. And if it's unfamiliar, it means you're not, you're not, you know, you're not doing it much. Um, like, I ask my clients constantly, like, what do you really want here? Because— and we talked about this a little bit last episode around aliveness— because I think your authentic wants are a really important and powerful guide to the culture you want to build, the direction of the company, the vision. This is why it's so important for founders to be able to access their authentic wants, because you're kind of the spiritual leader of this company, right? But you need to know what you really want, and they're going to do whatever you want, actually, whether you know—

whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not, or any of that stuff.

Yeah. And so if, if you're not in tune with your anger, you're not going to be as in tune with what you really want. Again, yeah, I learned this from Joe Hudson, that like anger unresisted becomes determination. It's like— and clarity. Right? So when you're like, I'm not clear, I don't know what I really want, there's likely some anger that you're not fully feeling. So I really like that, that as like, okay, if you're not clear, go get angry, go express anger. So that's one reason it's really like— clarity is so important, right? I, I often say like, the team that sees reality clearest wins. Part of seeing reality clearly is seeing like, what's my truth? What do I really want? You know, it's like, um, I'll just give an example. I have a client where like he really wants a hard— how do I say this? Um, a high, high commitment culture where people expect to work on weekends and like give it their all. And like, you know, that's in my view not good or bad. You know, I obviously— it's important to me to honor rest and renewal, you know, so you can take that to the extreme, but My point is like, there are some founders who are like, eh, I don't know, do I want that? Do I not want, should I? You know, they're looking more for like, what's the right answer? What's the way I'm supposed to run my company? And if, because they don't feel their anger, they just don't have their own compass around like, what do I want? There's not a right way to do it, but what do you really want? And so then the culture actually, there's like this, it's like lack of clarity tax. It's like you don't feel your anger, you don't create clarity. It's like it's just kind of in limbo. A lot of things are in limbo, both decisions, culture. So I think that's just important to name. So if you don't feel anger, you'll probably notice you're not really clear about what you want because you don't feel it when your wants are being violated. And so start to just tune in, even in subtle ways. Something resonating here.

I'm just thinking about some of the people I work with and like the ones, the indecisiveness, and like it's like, oh, it's just like, oh, if you don't feel your anger, you just don't know what you want.

Yes, because you don't feel when your wants are being or not being met. Yeah, yeah, right. Which is the way you really want to— the ways you know what you want. Um, so I would act, I would do work to, to learn to be angry, just even subtle way. Like look for like Oh, this, this isn't exactly what I want, right? Like, start subtly, like, ah, yeah, yeah, this is like little, little mild frustration, right? Might be the place you have to start and like pull that thread. Like, oh, I noticed just a little irritated. Fine, pay attention to that, right? Start where you are and then like follow that down.

Um, and so, and it can help.

Like, go ahead.

Step— well, I was gonna say step 2 I like that. It's like maybe find little ways you're angry, but like once you've explored, let's assume step 1 is probably the biggest step for most people. Well, I don't know, maybe there's also people who feel angry all the time.

Right. We'll talk about that in a second as well.

Yeah. I was gonna say, well, moving into step 2, let's assume either you have to find your anger or you already feel it all the time, but then step 2 is to allow yourself to fully feel the anger, right?

Yes. It is a physical sensation. So locate the physical sensations in your body. Breathe in and through them, welcome them, and express them. And express means with sound and/or movement, ideally both, in a healthy, safe way. Like, go in your car and scream. You know, I had a client yesterday who was like really upset and was, was he in his car? I think he was in his car. And I was like, great. Like, could you, I was like, what does your anger want to say? And he said it. I was like, great. Could you just let it say it? And he's like, it was like 2 minutes. He's like, oh my God, I feel so much like clearer. You know? So it's really powerful. It's amazing how little we allow ourselves to do that.

And a lot of people are scared of it. I mean, like my, like Ricky gets scared of his own anger and it's been, it's hard, been hard for me to get him like, hey, you can scream in a pillow or you can. So there's something about when he, when he, then in some ways it's safer around me because he's like, he's punching me and it's, we know it's not actually directed at me.

Right.

But in my case, I like, I definitely, I feel it rising and I can feel like my, it's a different tightness in my chest or it's like a, and then my shoulders get tense. And I think that's the other thing is like it shows up and you're like, grrr. And then you almost, the growl feels natural. And then I'm in my car usually and I'll just like hit my steering wheel and scream.

Yeah. I like the growl too. Grrr. You know? Um, I think it's important what you just said. A lot of people are scared of their feelings. Um, particularly the ones they view are negative, like sadness, anger, and fear. And mostly they're scared of being consumed by them. There's this real paradox that we've probably talked about before, like what you resist persists, um, and like the resistance to the feeling actually makes it bigger and more persistent. So what happens is— oh, just because we're talking about anger We're scared we'll be like consumed by the anger, right? Like the rage, and we'll be out of control. And so a lot of people will try to keep it at bay, and so it feels really intense because we're resisting it, right? Um, and from my experience, they're all like these sine curves. Like everything in life seems to be that way. It's like, you know, if you get— let yourself feel the anger all the way, it moves, it passes, it passes. You know, moves through you. And so the lie that our mind tells us is if I allow this, I'll just, it'll just, you know, like the Incredible Hulk, right? It'll just take over me and I'll just wreak havoc. And from my experience, the opposite is true. When you repress your anger, you end up kind of creating that havoc in all sorts of ways.

I think the irony of it, by the way, is the less you feel that feeling, the less familiar you are with it, the more it has that. And for me, it's not anger. It's like I rip through anger quickly. I feel very comfortable with anger, generally speaking. Like even with my kids, I'll be like, I'll be like, hustle and get in the car. Like, I will, I will give them a quick thing and then they'll move and then it's over for me. And I don't even know if it's anger, but it's some sort of— but for sadness, as you know, like, ooh, sadness feels like if I let myself be sad, I will be, I will be Eeyore. Like I will be just depressed walking around for the rest of my life. So I was just observing that, like, swallowed up by it. Yeah, just like, yeah, just like, and like, but anyway, I was just noticing it's Funny, because like, as you're talking, it's not anger, it's not sadness. For me, it feels exactly like that. And then I'm scared of it because I'm like, wait, I don't, I don't want to be consumed.

If I allow this in, I'll just be, I'll just drown.

There's like, it's like a double. Partly I've never felt, I'm not familiar with it, so then it feels more unknown. But partly is I think there is a lot more sadness that I've never felt, and so it does feel bigger. It is bigger, almost definitionally. Like, I don't, I don't feel that much anger in me that's like, oh, I don't know that that's there. Where sadness, I'm like, man, I don't know You know, like every girl who didn't— who dumped me, or like, I don't know, there's like all these things I'm like, don't think I felt that.

A lifetime of repressed sadness. Yeah. And it's intense. Like, I don't want to pretend it's not. It can be really intense. And expanding your capacity to be with those intense feelings is a hugely valuable, you know, uh, growth vector for a leader. Uh, like, I, I, um I came up with this framework recently that I called the, the Law of Expanding Possibilities, which is basically that like your capacity to be with intense feelings, like y-axis, and the x-axis is the scope of what's possible. The more your capacity to be with intense feelings, the more is possible for you, right? Because we limit ourselves by which intense feelings. So anger— so the more you can be with anger, the more you can be passionate, the more you can be determined, the more you can be clear, the more likely you are to, to take a stand and, and create what you really want and get all of your wants and needs met. Um, now we said we talk about the other side of it. So if you're someone who's prone to anger, you know, has a temper, um, you're not repressing your— well, you might be repressing your anger in a different way, uh, but you then, you probably go right to blame and tend to express your anger at people. And so even more important to go find the safe, healthy ways to express your, to move your anger, because if your pattern is, I just, I move it by, you know, expressing it at people, well, that has a lot of, you know, downstream damage consequences. So I would recommend you, you like make a practice of expressing that anger in healthy, safe ways. And then I think what you'll find is you won't be constantly at this like saturation point where you're about to explode at people. You'll be able to just be with the anger because one, you've moved a lot of the repressed, you know, store of it so that it won't be as intense in the moment. And two, you just build the capacity to just be with it. And then you can reveal it. This is a good distinction. You can reveal it instead of kind of communicating it at somebody. So the difference between like, hey, you did that thing and I'm mad, you know, it's like I like this specific phraseology of I notice I feel angry when you, you know, micromanage me, tell me what to do. Don't listen to me, in part because I'm telling myself and the person that I'm kind of in the driver's seat. Like, I'm not, I'm not out of control, you know, in reactive anger. I'm, I'm the awareness noticing, right? I notice anger is here.

You're not making me angry. I'm— so go ahead. I want to keep moving just because we have to, we gotta wrap here, but the So it sounds like if you don't feel angry, you have to find the anger. If you're prone to anger, it's like naming it or being more mindful of it. Yes. Step 2, we kind of talked about, which is like feeling all of it and actually allowing the— like, because I think that's another place where this short circuits, is someone doesn't want to feel it, so they don't— they don't have a healthy way of feeling it. Yes. Or their, their, their way of feeling it is to go to, to ream people. Whether that's people on the road on their drive home or whether that's their own team. Yes. And then, and then what? So, so let's say I'm doing, I'm doing that.

And then communicate your wants.

Yeah.

So I think that's the thing.

Or set boundaries, right? Or those kind of go together.

Or set boundaries. Yeah. They're, they're sort of different degrees, as I said, like I want this or I must have this, or if this doesn't happen. So yeah, assert your boundaries, communicate your wants.

I—

it's an amazingly underutilized tool for leaders. It's just to say, hey guys, I want us to do this. I have lots of clients who are like, how do I get my team to do this thing, right? And they're frustrated. I'm like, have you told them you want them to? And like, oh, like, it doesn't occur that it can be that simple. Like, sometimes we think we don't—

we try to have to convince them that it's the right path or that it's the— that it's like, right?

And sometimes we'll get frustrated because Yeah, we, we think we get righteous and we think we have to convince, justify it like it's the right thing, you know, like again with this example of like whether people ought to be on on weekends or not. Oh yes, you know, we can get all righteous like that's the right way to do it, don't you see?

The best companies are 996, and then, right, and then somebody in your team is going to be like, no, they're not.

Yeah, I'm, I'm the leader and I want it this way, and it's okay if you don't. And so let's just make sure that We are really clear about that, so we hire the right people. And so I think either asserting a boundary or communicating want is the last step there. And I think they're also related because if you don't assert your wants and you don't get them, you're gonna have a lot more frustration. And so, you know, it kind of cascades that way.

So step 1, be aware that you're angry and that's gonna look different for every person. Step 2 is find a healthy way to truly express it.

And then, yeah, I would put in there welcome it and then express it. So there's kind of like a— because if you're, if you're resisting the anger already, you're going to be kind of stuck and cause like pain. So I would go, yeah, identify it, um, welcome it. And welcome could include like breathe in and through the physical sensations, and then express it, and then set a boundary or communicate a want.

Yeah, beautiful. And I think that— I guess I'll leave it just because we hit this earlier and it really still is just buzzing with me— is like, anger is your compass to know your wants. Without it, you just will never— it's almost like, how could you? You know, it's a— it is— it's been— if we think of it as a form of love or it's a form of, of the divine, it has been shown us to— it just— it is the guidepost for us to tell us what we want. And there's no other feeling, now that I'm thinking about it, that really does that.

Yeah, it's like if we're off our wants, we'll feel anger is trying to get us back on. Like if there's the Tao, the way, yeah, right? Like it will feel anger when we're off it or something, you know? And it's like, it's a way to say, hey, whoa, get, get back on track there.

Awesome. Thank you, Dave Kashen.

Thanks, Jesse. See you soon.

We'll see you guys soon. Bye.