Creative Tension: The Secret to Creating Big Results Without the Grind

Hey everyone, this is Jesse Pujji and Dave Kashen on Heart of Entrepreneurship. Andrew is not with us today, and you know, we're going to generally experiment with a variety of different formats. We're thinking about guests, so if you have guest suggestions, let us know. Uh, today we're going to talk about a topic that's very near and dear to my heart and something I probably say every single day, uh, that Dave actually taught me. And we're going to talk about what it is, how it works, and how you can use it in your business. I'm going to talk to Dave and get the concept out on the table, and then he's going to talk to me about how I actually use it as an entrepreneur. So the topic is Desired Future State, or DFS for short. And if you were to walk around any of my companies, you'd hear that term being said constantly. So Dave, let's just start with like, what is Desired Future State? Why? I don't know, where'd you come— where'd you find it? And just talk us through it.

Yeah. So desired future state, in some ways, as simple as it sounds, it is, uh, the future state that you desire, the one that you want to have happen. I often ask clients things like, well, you've heard me ask you this, uh, what does winning look like? Or what would a 10 out of 10 look like? Imagine it's a year from now and everything's gone exactly the way you want it to go. You know, what does that look like? That's your desired future state. And it could be for you as an individual. It could be for a team. It could be for the whole company. And where it comes from is this, um, this model called creative tension that I learned from, uh, this MIT professor, Peter Senge. And the reason I was so attracted to it is, uh, Well, I'll frame it the way I often frame it, which is one of the things I noticed is that most people intuitively recognize that tension is a powerful motivator, right? Because tension by its nature seeks to be resolved. And so what most of us do fairly unconsciously is we create tension using lack or fear, right? So, uh, lack is a sense of not good enough. Something's missing, right? Not where we should be, right? And most of us are intimately familiar with that experience. Oh, I don't have as much money as I should. I should have an exercise routine already. I should have— my company should be further along. It's such a common thought pattern that we don't even really notice that we're doing it. And so it does create tension because there's a sense of like, something's wrong here, right?

It needs to be different.

Yeah. And you know, this is how most people motivate themselves. You know, I think weight loss is one of the most common examples of that, right? Oh, I should weigh less. I'm eating too much, right? And what we find, and I'll talk about fear in a second, is it tends to create this yo-yo effect. It's like, oh, you're sort of making yourself wrong for being the way you are. And so you, you, you improve a little bit, but then you kind of end up just oscillating back to where you were. And then the other—

well, and if it— hold on, if Andrew were here though, he'd be like, hold on, Dave, this is just fancy coach speak for the same shit. Like, what— how is DFS different than what you're describing?

So, um, let me— let's see, let me finish and then I'll come back to it. Because I think it'll be helpful to see the distinction. So that's lack, okay? That's lack-based tension. I mean, the obvious thing is, you know, focusing on what you want instead of focusing on how— uh, well, here's the way I usually say it. Um, the way it's different is that we typically— so now I am answering your question— we typically, uh, collapse the desired future state into the present. And wish we were already there. So, in some way, it's a really simple distinction of time. It's like if I wished I already had more money, if I wish I already had more money or I already weighed less or my company was already further along or had already raised money, that creates suffering because it hasn't. It's just like fighting reality. Yeah, you're denying what is, you're resisting what is. And, you know, that's such like a core principle of being present. Being present or in a state of presence is just allowing what is, accepting what is, because it is, right? Like, I'll say, you know, if, you know, we're recording this on a Friday and imagine you're like, oh, I wish it was Saturday already. God, why is it still Friday, right? Like, that would be so silly, but that's essentially what we do. I wish, I wish I was somewhere other than where I am. So the, uh, it is in a way still a version of the desire future state. I wish I weighed less, I wish— but it's, it's collapsing the desire future state into the present and focusing on, you know, essentially pretending there's something wrong with the fact that you're not already there and creating a sense of lack.

So is it, is it the future or the wrongness that, that people kind of where this goes awry? Because let's use an example, right? My business is $10 million in revenue and I wish it was going to be $30 million in revenue. I want it to be $30 million in revenue. Is that—

I find it's really a time horizon issue because if you say, "I wish we were already at $30 million in revenue," which just to be clear is what most people do.

Why aren't we at $30?

I wish I had more Right. And then that's what creates the sense of wrongness, is, oh, we're only at 10, we should be at 30. Now that 20 becomes this sense of lack. Oh God, why are we only at 10? Why are we at 30? It may— it creates a problem.

The problem is wrong right now because we aren't at 30 right now. Like, what's wrong right now? And then that moves— that galvanizes people into action though. That does— that does create motivation.

It does. Yeah, yeah, we're not crazy. The reason people use a sense of lack for motivation is because it works. It does work, sort of. It works in the sense of it motivates you and has you take action. But one, it's, um, both, both lack and fear I, I often think of as like dirty fuel. Like they have this like toxic residue. It's really stressful and we have this angst and the sense of something's wrong with me, right? I'm doing it wrong. I'm— something's wrong with life. Right, creates this constriction. And then, as I said, often we end up kind of yo-yoing back to, um, you know, our initial state, or we're not as— we're not in flow. It's like this sense of like hustle and grind.

And why, why do people yo-yo when they do it?

Um, and it depends what it is, but essentially humans have counterwill. So I should be a little more precise, I guess. Where the yo-yo tends to come is when you make yourself wrong. So there's kind of two different cases, right? If it's like, oh, we're at 30, you know, we're at 10, I wish we were at 30, that might or might not cause it. But if it's like, I should be better, I should be smarter, I should be more disciplined, I should be more focused, confident. There's this part of us that when it feels judged, it just sort of digs in and is like, you know, screw you, no, I shouldn't, I'm gonna have a chocolate cake. So that's what then— or I should weigh less, you know, I shouldn't be eating the chocolate cake. The one who wants the chocolate cake is like, screw you, I'm gonna have the chocolate. And then we're like, it creates this inner conflict. That's what creates the yo-yo, is these different parts of us are in conflict. And so we're like, we do it, and then the part of us that that was creating the old behavior or the old pattern kicks back in and that creates a yo-yo.

So, if I hone my inner Andrew again, like, so why is desired future state, like, so why is this again different? Why is it not just fancy coach speak or why does it not create the yo-yo or any of those kind of the, why is it not dirty fuel?

So, if you don't create a problem, by telling yourself you should already be somewhere you're not, and you accept yourself and you accept life exactly as it is, well, that eliminates the toxicity. And the reason— part of the reason I, um, focus so much on desired futures, say, for entrepreneurs, is because, you know, all humans are creative beings, but entrepreneurs in particular are, you know, they're creating in the world. And so when I say, well, could you just accept everything exactly as it is? You know, often they start to get scared, like, wait, hold on, right? If I don't have that sense of lack, it's got to be bigger, it's got to be better, right? So what's going to drive me to do— my whole life I've been motivating myself from a sense of lack, right? I need to be better, like you said. So what's going to motivate me? And they, they really truly get scared. And some people listening might experience that. It's like If I challenged you as listeners, could you just accept yourself and your life and your startup exactly as it is? You actually feel the lack, the tension going away. And it's actually scary because it's like, oh wait, am I going to just lose my motivation?

I don't want to be put neutral.

Yeah, I don't want to be neutral. I don't want to become a lazy couch potato. I don't want to be a monk in a cave. That's not the game I'm playing. And I've had a few clients recently say that specifically. And so, when you at the same time accept reality and accept yourself as reality as it is, yourself as you are, and imagine a desired future state, you generate creative tension. It's a different form of tension that actually, you know, that's the clean fuel in my mind. It actually feels good. It's more like being drawn or pulled from the future. Than being like pushed or driven away from something that isn't, you know, is a problem or is bad or wrong.

Yeah. One thing you taught me back in the day, just for people listening, was like, like language indicates a bit where you are because this is a really nuanced topic and I think a lot of people struggle with it, including myself. And first of all, just understanding it, but then knowing when you're actually doing the lack version versus— but one, one just example, I remember the difference between saying we need to be at 30 million and how awesome would it be if we got to 30 million? And I'm not just saying to do the words for lip service, like the feelings that you feel when you go, it would be so cool. Like, I would love— how awesome would it be if this was the future versus we need, we should, why are we not yet at? And I think most of the time if you start paying attention, at least for me, remember paying attention to my language sort of showed me where I was and I was definitely in the zone of, of negative tension or whatever versus the creative tension.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Um, there's two sort of points there. One is you can feel the difference. So the way you know you're, quote, doing it right is you actually feel excited and inspired in a sense, instead of like, uh, constricted and like a should or have to. Like, need to implies there's something wrong here. Yeah, right. Versus want to, it's like, oh, I want— you know, should, need to, those are all like these problem ideas, like there's something wrong that needs to be fixed versus we are where we are and here's where we want to get to. And it is a bit of a paradox. And that's, I think, what makes it hard for people to wrap their mind around is I find most really, really useful ideas and insights tend to be paradoxical. And we humans are capable of holding paradox. So one way I've heard it described is like the being-becoming paradox. When you just think about yourself, it's like being is just— I'm just being. I accept myself exactly as I am. Nothing wrong, nothing missing. I feel this sense of presence, of wholeness. And at the same time, I can imagine a different version that I want to become— more confident, more inspired, more passionate, more present. And we can actually hold those two things at the same time. And again, that, you know, one way I think about it is like our minds can't really tell the difference between what we are seeing and what we are envisioning. And so it generates this like cognitive dissonance. And so I think that's, you know, the creative part in creative tension. It's like our subconscious mind goes to work to bridge the gap, and that's the source of creativity. It's like, whoa, I don't even know where that idea came from, but I just had this idea of how to get there.

Yeah, I think one of the, you know, when you have one of the things about it that, you know, you've said this a few times, but I want to like double underline it is while the concept is desired future state or creative tension where you want to go to this future exciting place, the key to it, I think, or at least I've learned this is, is I think people are different. Maybe for me is accepting, fully accepting current reality and not making it wrong at all. And, and it's, it's a, that's the nuance of like, no, are you totally okay with what's here today and you want to go do something more, you know, different than what's here. And the analogy I always give people that resonates often, I think, is have you ever missed a flight? I have. Yeah. So like if anyone who's ever missed a flight— I've missed lots of flights— the amount of like, like stress and suffering you feel in the like, am I going to make it? Am I not going to make it? Okay, hold on. The guy, the Uber, he's driving too slow. Like, and then like you either get on the flight or you miss it. Right. And in my— at least in my experience, in both cases, I feel a ton of relief in my body because I've accepted reality. Like I'm either on the jet bridge, I'm like texting my wife like, yo, I made the flight. Ah, this is reality now. Or the door is closed and I got there and they go, you just missed it, buddy. And then I still feel the like, ah. And then I'm like, okay, let's say I missed it. I go, what do I do next? Like, I got to go do something about this. I'm not— there's literally no point in— and so I like that because it's— there's so much stress and tension in trying to make a flight. But once you miss it, reality sets in. It's almost like anything, like a car crash, like any issue that— like, once the thing has happened, most of us naturally go back into the flow state. We're like, oh. And I think it's— we go back in that state because we've accepted what's happened.

I think it's such an important point. You know, I, I often ask clients, are, are you willing to let go of wishing anything about your current experience was different than it is. And if we're honest, most of the time we're not really. Yeah, even if it's just like, oh, there's this tightness in my belly, or, oh, I feel a little anxiety, I don't want to feel that, right? So whether it's an internal experience or external condition, most of the time we're not— to your point, we're not really accepting reality as it is. Where there's something that we're wishing was already different. Again, it's not resignation.

I think if I have a company and I have my sales team and my sales team's production is low and I want it to be higher, right? I want the conversion rates to double. And you go to me, you say, Jesse, are you willing to accept that your sales team converts at 10%, not 20%? I'm like, no way, dude. This is— you're the wrong coach. What are you talking like? Help me understand that, right? Because Because I'm going, no, I can't accept that. I'm an entrepreneur. What do you mean? No, man, dude, I can't accept that.

We need to get it higher, otherwise the unit economics won't work. Or what? Yeah. So one, you know, when we talk about accepting reality as it is, included in that is really being grounded in reality, not, you know, head in the sand, ignoring, uh, pretending it's not true, or ignoring the numbers. Like, I'm a huge fan, as you know, like really knowing what is so, okay, it is 10% and facing that and feeling whatever you feel around it.

So, it's not avoiding or withdrawing. It's not saying not paying attention to the numbers. It's like the facts are there.

Knowing what's really— in fact, in some way, being fully present is facing what you haven't been facing and haven't been wanting to face it.

And a lot of entrepreneurs, myself included, avoid facts. We avoid the things that look a little—

What we don't want.

Yeah. Like a lot of entrepreneurs, I think, because we're rose-colored glasses people. Oh no, but it's, it's, it's not like it is 10%, but like, that's just because so-and-so was on vacation. Like, we don't actually look at, you know, there's a common thing on that. But I think that's a big important point of acceptance is actually just even like awareness, like knowing, knowing that it's the case and that the numbers are what they are and that not telling yourself like I think a lot of entrepreneurs, even if they look at the number, they'll asterisk it in their head. They'll spin it in their own mind, and again, myself included.

Yeah, you're bringing up a point in my mind which is some people refer to as like spiritual bypass, like, it's all good, man, we just accept everything as it is, it's all good, I don't need— you know, and that's not what we're talking about either. So this is again where time— people get confused about time. And when I say accept reality as it is. What's reality? I mean, what's in the present moment and in the past is now— it's like part of the written record. It's just what is. Very different from the future, which we actually can influence. So the— when I say accept reality, I don't mean resignation and like, oh well, it's just 10%, it's okay, I guess that's just how it is. Right? It's not, it's not like, uh, yeah, it's not resigning. And you might be angry, and I just want to be clear about that too, and that's totally welcome. And you might, you might, there might be like a real sense of, guys, this isn't okay with me. Yeah, you know, we're not, we're, you know, we're way below our potential, or we've had this conversation many times, you're not as focused as, um, you know, we can be. So it's not an excuse or like permission to just be soft if what you're feeling is a real sense of boundaries or anger or fierceness. All of that's welcome. It's just internally, can you just accept right now and in the past, like, that just is what it is? Today is Friday. It's not Thursday. It's not Saturday. That's just what it is.

I think of like the classic sitcom thing where the husband is lost and he's like, no, no, I'm not lost. I'm not lost. I'm not lost. And it's like, you can't actually get on the right track until you acknowledge and accept like, okay, fine, I'm lost. I don't know where we are. Okay.

Yeah, I did this. I did this to my family a couple of weeks ago when I pretended I knew where I was going and wasted an hour going out of the way. So it's a good example. Yeah. The way I joke about it is like, you can't get there until you're here. Right. And if you think about it, if you're using your creative energy and the creative energy of your team, which is, I think, like the most precious resource you have, to do anything other than channel it toward creating your desired future state, you're likely wasting it, right? So if you're using your energy wishing it was different, right, like you're gonna end up draining.

I think a lot of entrepreneurs often, and I've seen this now more than I've gotten aware of this, is, is to relieve the, the feeling— say it's at 10% and you want it to be at 20%, you know, your competitors are 20% or whatever. Instead of a set of language I have adopted that might be helpful for people, I'll say we're at 10%. There's probably a lot of reasons why we're on there. It's not wrong or bad, but we would all like it to be 20%. We know we can be better. We all know that that's the case. Okay, so how do we go? Let's go plan for how it can be better. Let's spend our time and energy there. A lot of entrepreneurs I've noticed and, you know, they go, oh, 10%. Why is it 10%? And they spend so much energy like trying to do a postmortem or looking backwards. And I'm not against learning from the past, but what you'll see is that a lot of like to relieve the tension of why the answer is wrong today, I'll spend a lot of time postmorteming and trying to put all the data together. And it's such a subtle thing, but there's a difference between trying to like diagnose what's happening to fix it, to improve it versus to like maybe to blame or just to even like relieve the tension of, oh, okay, well, well, this is why it's the case. So I don't have to feel so bad about it.

Yeah, well, there's nuance here, so I'm glad you brought that up because as, as you know as well as anyone, I'm certainly a fan of taking 100% responsibility for like, how did we create 10%? But again, what most teams do, to your point, is they start with, this is bad and wrong that it's 10%. So now we go, who's to blame? And then, you know, leaders that think they're more evolved go, well, I'm the leader, I take the blame. And honestly, often it's like, well, I've slapped myself on the wrist, I've taken the blame, so that's it. I don't need to really think about it anymore rigorously, be curious about how we actually created 10% as a result. And it's sort of ironic that we, we learn less about the past when we're when we think that the results are bad and wrong, then if we're like, oh, 10%, okay, like we said we wanted 20, we created 10, it is what it is. You actually, if you actually get curious, how did we create it as 10? And you know, like one of my favorite exercises is like teach the class. Like if you're teaching a class at, you know, Stanford Business School on how to create 10% conversion rate, half of your competitors. You know, yeah, how do you create half of your— the conversion rate you wanted, or a competitor conversion rate? If you're willing, you can usually see, oh well, we didn't focus on this and that. So it is really useful in creating the future you want, getting really curious how you created the present. So I'm not, um, I'm not advocating for not doing that or ignoring it, but let's be honest, what most teams do unconsciously is, this is bad, this is wrong, And so, we just naturally go toward blame and guilt and shame instead of just genuine curiosity where we can actually learn.

Yeah. And I think two things I'd sort of bring into that. I think one is for somebody listening, it's like, "Oh, there's so much nuance here. Oh, it sounds very confusing and nuanced." And I think for anyone who reads 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership or you go to conscious.is and go to their website about Above and Below the Line, this work, like much spiritual work, always just comes back to the same place, which is If you're above the line, which means you're curious, you're interested in learning, you're open, you feel open, likely you're not, you know, you're, you're doing the desired future state stuff right and not regret current reality stuff right. And if you're, if you feel constricted and blamey and you're mad and you're, you know, and you want to be right about something, you're probably in the fear state. And so this whole framework will, will, you can still use all the words, but it just won't, it'll create the sort of negative version of the attention.

Yeah, if you're not actually accepting reality as it is, you're likely in a state of threat or fear, to your point, and you're likely going to then create your desired future state from like scarcity or from this is a problem, we need, we need, and you're going to end up attached to the desired future state because you think it's the solve for the problem and wrongness of the present moment. So you're going to hold both really tightly and feel that constriction, which again is back in like Dirty Fuel, versus you actually want to hold, you know, well, there's a looseness, like a non-grasping in the like, okay, it is what it is. And this is another nuance, you actually want to hold your desired future state in a certain sense lightly Because if you think you need the desired future state in order to solve your problem or in order to be happy or be fulfilled, be okay, basically be happy, now you're going to get attached to the desired future state and you're back in grasping and constriction and clinginess.

And I think the other big thing is your team knows this. They can feel it in their body. They know it in their minds whether or not you're motivating them with a thing that's exciting that they want, everyone wants to run towards. We're bad and there's a problem and it needs to be, it needs to be better. So, so let's say now I've, I've accepted the current reality. It's 10% or I've missed the flight or whatever it is. Now let's go back to DFS. So what is, what is like, once I've accepted that, what, how detailed am I? How specific? Like what? Tell me the nature of it.

So I would say one, it's not just a, you know, a paragraph you know, somewhere. It's not a mission statement. It's not some words on the wall. It's, um, it's an actual, like, picture or movie in your mind's eye or your team's mind's eye of the future, like a snapshot or movie of the future that you actually desire. So the D in desire for your state is really important. Like, If your team doesn't actually desire, or the person you're talking to doesn't actually desire, or you don't actually desire the vision, it's not going to generate that healthy tension. And this is where the question of what do you really want becomes so important because, again, so many of us are operating from should and this is what's right, which is all really other people's ideas imposed onto you.. And I think to be really authentic as a human, as a leader, requires you to tune into what do I really want, right? What's my heart's desire? Like, what do I want to create? And I end up spending a lot of time, as you know, with clients trying to really discern between what they think they should achieve and what they actually want to.

Yeah. I wanna unpack the where people mess it, like where people, where DFS goes wrong. Like, let's assume you've accepted the current reality, which we've already sussed out now. One example, and I just want to break them up, is rather than saying your desired future state, you say you're like the right future state. Like people go, well, this is what it, you know, we should get to this number. This is the right answer. And it's not actually what they want. So can you unpack that a little bit? Yeah.

Well, what came to mind was like in college, it's like, okay, you know, I should get that job at McKinsey or Goldman Sachs and I, which you and I both did, and I should blah, blah, blah. And it's like there's this societal or kind of idea of this is the right future, this is the right way to live life. And so, instead of being authentic and following our authentic desires, we're essentially playing someone else's game. And entrepreneurs can do this as well.

"Oh, my investors really think I got to focus on profitability." This must be a unicorn and we have to raise these two rounds. And this is the— and I go, what's your desired future state? They go, well, this, you know, that. And I go, no, yours. And oftentimes I get the— I get a look like, what are you talking— I don't know. What do you mean, mine? No, this is like the right desired future state. This is what ought to exist and should be created. Yeah.

Most people have like atrophied their dreamer, right? When you're a kid, you just dream all the time like, oh, I'm going to be an astronaut. I'm going to— I had a dream. I was like, I'm going to be a toy entrepreneur and make toys because toys are so fun and happy, you know, and, you know, it changes. But by the time we get to even like 20s, certainly 30s, most of us have stopped dreaming, you know, life or adults or people, you know, enough times have said, well, you can't have that, you can't have what you really want, you know. And so I think we sort of resigned ourselves before we even tried and limited ourselves of what's possible. Or think we need to win at someone else's game.

And what's the downside of getting rid of the dreamer? I think somebody else could say— again, the Andrew would go, "No, no, my dreamer doesn't matter, Dave. That dreamer is going to get me in trouble, and I want to make money and be successful." So, what's the downside of letting go of desire? Because a lot of people, again, reject the desire part of this. "I don't get what I want. Why would I get what I want? I need to make the right thing.

I need to get the answer right." Well, from my experience, and, you know, very, very, you know, I played this game, uh, you know, I went to Wharton and I went to Goldman Sachs and I went to top-performing hedge fund, and like, I did the thing that I thought I was supposed to do. And at least my experience, and I've seen this many clients, it felt totally empty and inauthentic, you know. It did. It's like, if I— if you really ask yourself What do you think having that will do for you, right? Most people, the reason they want to win at the game that they think they should be playing is because they think that peace and joy and fulfillment and wholeness and aliveness are like, you know, at the end of that rainbow. And from my experience, if you're not living authentically, that's not— that's— it doesn't— it just doesn't happen.

Yeah, I found it for me, it was an energetic component that was really important, which is when I'm doing what I want my energy is sky high and I'm actually way more effective. And therefore, and like, I'm more like I can sustain longer and I can, I can actually— and I feel so different, for example, between Ambush and Gateway X. Like Ambush, I always felt like I was running for the door and Gateway X, I'm like, well, this is like, I'm energized, I'm excited by this. Not every day I have my bad days, of course, but like in general I'm like, oh no, because there's like what I want. I'm doing exactly as I, you know, what I want. And when I, by the way, when I get away from what I want, I get a real clear message that came back. I was texting you about that yesterday or today and I was like, "Ooh, I'm getting some— this is not— it's becoming more clear to me this is not what I want." But I think it's really hard to tune into it and honor it actually.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love what you said. That's my experience too. People tend to be much more energized, which by the way is, again, one of the most precious resources of creating something in the world is your own energy. Also, it's magnetic. So charismatic when someone's like, you know, you meet some entrepreneurs who clearly like, they love what they're doing. They're so passionate about the mission that it, you know, it's self-fulfilling because it's so magnetic.

And it's empowering too for other people because then they see you doing what you want and they feel comfortable doing what they want. And like, you know, Rick Elias, Red Ventures billionaire founder, said this to me. He was just like, you can't decouple strategy from your own wants. If you think you can, you're wrong. Because if you don't want to make the strategy that you're coming up with, it ain't going to happen. Jesse and I was like, no, him and I had this really interesting conversation and I think it was the first time in my life where I was like, oh, he's totally like— and again, I've said that to other people and they don't know what to do with it. I go, you just— if you don't want to do that, that's right. You're the founder and CEO of the company. Like, it doesn't matter how right the answer is.

You're going to be like fighting yourself the whole way and then wonder why it didn't work. It's like, you know, it's like you're choosing to do it and resisting it at the same time. That's not very— it's like two different vectors moving in opposite directions. That's not a lot of force. Um, I had another thought come up as you were saying it, which is, you know, when we pursue the thing we really want and like care deeply about, we're both most powerful and most vulnerable, right? And I think it's worth acknowledging that because I I think that's part of what keeps people from following their authentic passion. It's scary because almost by definition, because you care so much about it and failing feels like, oh, way scarier than like, eh, okay, this thing, I might make money, might not.

Well, you'll hear a lot of people in the venture ecosystem especially go like, well, this is what companies should do. It's going to get to a bill or not. And if it fails, there's no big— like, and they almost push that away. And that makes sense now that you're saying that, that it's like, oh yeah, it's not vulnerable because It's not what I wanted. It's like what the company should have done.

Yes. Takes real courage because you care to some extent when it's not something you actually want, but when it's what you really want, that's courageous because it's heartbreaking to not get what you really want. And in a way, not going after it fully almost like gives you the excuse of like, "Well, okay, but I didn't really try." And so, you avoid some responsibility, but of course, the cost of that is you're less likely to create what you really want.

Another place I see people sort of get a little off on DFS is they will— they'll kind of self-negotiate or compromise in the DFS, right? They're like, I can't, I can't work 1 hour a week and be a billionaire. That's not possible. Or even in a business context, like, we are at $5 million in revenue and someone will come back to the plan and go, I put $7 million. I'm like, well, why didn't you put $12 million? Oh no, Jesse, $12 million, that's That's— you're an alien, that you're on a different planet. Talk about why people do that.

And yeah, that's a great— so there's two things that come up for me there. One is, yeah, limiting beliefs. So, you know, most people start by limiting themselves before they even try, you know. And I occasionally— people come to me for like career coaching and, you know, they're— I'll ask them, well, hold on, if you let go of all limiting beliefs, You know, what do you really want to do? And often they know, but they didn't even let themselves consider that as a possibility because they just pre-limited themselves. Well, that's not, you know, that's not really possible. And, you know, same thing like you're saying for entrepreneurs, it's like, what do you really want to create? They don't believe it's possible. And so that becomes self-fulfilling, right? If you think you can or think you can't, you're right. But the, the more nuanced point is often when I ask people what they really want, or what's your DFS, they, they think they don't know and they struggle. And the reason is because there's some trade-off that they're making up in their mind. And so they're struggling to decide between the trade-off. And you kind of alluded to this. It's like, well, God, I, on the one hand, I want to work, you know, 30 hours a week, 40 hours a week, you know? Um, on the other hand, I want to build a, a billion-dollar company. And they're sort of struggling with like, ah, which one do I, you know? And I'm like, okay, so what I hear you saying is you want to work 30 hours a week and build a billion-dollar company. And they're like, well, yeah. I was like, okay, well, that's your desired future state. And so that's something I just encourage listeners to reflect on. Most trade-offs are false. And so I really challenge, you know, when we're in a state of threat, we tend to think either-or trade-offs. So, one of my values I call surf and turf. I'm just a huge fan of asking the question, "How could you have it all?" And I just want listeners to know I'm seeing it for entrepreneurs that are willing to have it all. One in particular comes to mind right now, playing golf, hanging out with family, company's on track to be a unicorn, culture's great. It is possible. There's an important nuance here, which is if you think about the tension between current reality and the desired future state as a rubber band, like, you can have the rubber band be too slack. This sometimes happens in organizations where it's like, we're at 5, we're gonna get to 6, and people are like, okay, right? And then the leaders are like, why are my people not working that hard? You know, God, they're not putting in the— you know, like, well, there's not enough tension in the system, right? Getting or they don't believe it, or, or, um, or there's not a clear deadline. So it's like, we're gonna get to 10 someday in the future, which doesn't create tension versus like a year from now. And all of a sudden, um, but you can also snap the rubber band because, you know, Jesse, like if you said 12, maybe that galvanizes them if they thought, you know, if their goal was 7. And maybe it's they just can't believe it's possible and the rubber band breaks and there's no tension anymore. Or you said, "Well, you're at 5 now. How about 100 next year?" At some point, it just becomes magical thinking.

Yeah. And I think I've seen what happens too is that you start not tracking towards that goal and then everybody either it's a joke, a laughingstock, or it's just so discouraging for everybody because they feel like they're losing every day, even though the business may be double, but you set the target at quadruple.

Yeah. I like when teams get really explicit about like what, this gets a little bit into goal setting, but like what probability of success are we like serves us best? Because some teams, you know, Google was famous for the OKRs and their thing was two-thirds. So basically they were like, you know, we want to set goals that we believe we have roughly 66% chance of achieving. And that's different than a team that might set goals that they have a 90% chance of achieving or 50% chance of achieving. And there's not like a right answer. I mean, there's some research I've seen where like 50%, right? They recommended 50%. Um, but I think it's useful to also just know thyself and be clear, like, what is the, you know, how much risk is enlivening for us and how much is actually demotivating. So, there's not a right answer. Again, back to like, what's your authentic, this is something I really want and is in the realm of believable even if it's a stretch, but not so much of a stretch that it's not credible.

Yeah. And I think the other area related to this where I see people not— they're like not actually specific enough.

Yes.

And we've done— it's like How many clients actually? How many employees? What will the org chart look like? Like, what is the actual vision and future of what you're trying to create? And I think when you lack specificity, you end up kind of again creating what you, what you came up with, which is this— it's not tight, you know?

Yeah. And it's again, it's not like a statement on a paper. It's what can you picture it in your mind, right? Like, Okay, Jesse, you're— well, I guess let's just play with it for a second. Like, you know, end of 2025, like, what, what's the most enlivening, inspiring vision for Gateway X that you can see?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I've said, like, I want it to be over run rating, over $10 million in EBITDA across the portfolio. I think a big one for me is like, is it's— I'm not in the day-to-day operations. Like, we were texting yesterday, like, I'm not, I'm not talking to clients. I'm not necessarily talking to employees. I'm working with the CEOs to really help them grow and learn. And so in that sense, it's maybe only 2 days a week of my time for the current— what's currently there. That's how much time I'm spending. And then I'm spending my another day plus a week on AI stuff because I can learn that, figure that out, how that's going to affect all these businesses and then figuring out what the future, you know, the strategy is like. I think it's shifting more towards maybe M&A or some other You know, rather than starting more companies, maybe there's a different, a different way to approach it.

So by end of year, you have clarity around that future vision or strategy. Okay. So just let's do like a minute or two. I'll invite you to close your eyes and like, no kidding, that has happened. So it's end of 2025. You're looking at the, you know, the dashboard showing greater than $10 million in EBITDA. And you're no longer in the day-to-day operations. You're just supporting the CEOs and you have this really clear vision for the future of GatewayX and the strategy. Just let yourself have that in your mind's eye. Yeah. How is that for you?

It's nice. I feel, it feels spacious. Like I feel excited about meeting new people, maybe being more external, like Yeah, I feel—

and, and stepping in the body of future Jesse, who's there having that experience, just notice what's it like to be you.

I feel like gratitude. I feel lucky for like being able to have that platform. Um, I feel like in many ways actually I can serve the CEOs better by not being so involved in the businesses. Um, I feel like part of it is I feel energized to create versus need, you know, needing to be something. That's exciting. Um, yeah, the word spacious, like just the ability to have flexibility, like flexibility in my day or my week. And there's other stuff like picking the kids up from school every now and then, like there's certain indulgences maybe that I don't take that I can, I can feel myself wanting to take.

Yeah, I hear there's a real want for that spaciousness. Yeah, beautiful.

Thank you. Thank you.

So that's, that's the key, is that you actually see it. Again, it's not just an idea. So the idea is important, but then the next step is actually visualize it in your mind's eye. And, and again, like, I think about DFS or creative tension as like this fractal 'Cause you might have a team member that's feeling unmotivated or a little lost. And so it's again, back to like understanding their desire, like the D. You have to really know your team members of like, what do they want? So let's say a salesperson missed their numbers. You say, yeah, you missed your numbers. It was a rough quarter for you. And like, I see you as, You know, you have all the talent. I think a year from now you're gonna be one of our top performing sales, you know, salespeople. And I know you want to become like a team leader. I think you, if you develop this and that, I could see you becoming a team leader and then potentially VP of, right? And if you know them and know what they want, then you can, you can create the desired future again in their mind.

Yeah. And I, and I think you said this to me once, but like there's alignment when people, when people in companies want the same thing for a period. There can be great alignment between them. And at some point, even a founder CEO may say, well, the company could go do this. I don't want to do that. You know, the company needs to raise another round of capital and go public. And that's great for the company that the DFS of the company is this. But my DFS is to, you know, spend more time with my kids or run an investment firm or whatever it is. And I think using those like that's I think the device gets so powerful when you layer on my DFS like, you know, in some of our companies where we'll do This initiative's DFS, right? This capability, like, oh, hey, we— it's a really good way to frame because otherwise people walk in and go, why aren't we reaching out to so-and-so people? And it's like, well, hold on, the DFS, we want to have a system where we reach out to so-and-so people. Like, where are we today? And then that can even ladder up to the company. But the individuals, like, I think you can use this framing everywhere and it creates— it gets to the bottom of a lot of issues that pop up.

And I think it was like Bezos at Amazon did the like What was it like? The launch announcement or the magazine cover, right? It's a version of that, right?

Like start—

begin with the end in mind, right? Let's do it. Let me say two other things. I just want to make sure to get in here. One is we haven't talked all that much about the undesired future state, right? Because we talked about lack. The other way we tend to motivate ourselves is fear. And, you know, it's— as far as we know, we're the only species on Earth that can imagine things that don't exist. It's why humans have, you know, conquered, you know, well, for better or worse, in some way conquered the Earth and built civilizations and all that, is we're able to imagine things that don't exist and then create them. So what we often do is we use this precious gift of imagination to imagine the future we don't want to have happen. And that's the other thing I just want to name. I see a lot of entrepreneurs and leaders doing that, you know, for themselves, for their teams. Hey guys, if we don't hit this number, we're going to have a tough time raising money, you know? And again, it's motivating, but it has that toxic residue. And it's literally just the converse of saying, If we do hit this number, we are going to be able to raise money. And you know, from my experience, you know, pointing— I once did a whitewater rafting guide school to learn how to be a rafting guide. And they were like, you have to always point positive. Those people can't hear you, right? So if you're like, don't go toward that, you know, those rapids, they're like, oh, they go toward the rapids. So I like that.

Isn't the famous race car adage, like the race car drivers get taught, You know, look at the road, not the wall.

Like, totally. Don't ever look at the wall. You'll hit the wall. And yeah, and there's this like crazy statistics of like these wide open roads where like for miles and miles there's nothing but like occasional telephone poles. And the number of people who end up hitting those telephone poles is like statistically, you know, crazy because they're just, don't hit the pole, don't hit the pole, don't hit the pole. Boop, they hit the pole. Um, the other thing I just wanted to say, if I can remember it— oh, is if you're a leader, often your team members come to you with problems, right? This is like the air we breathe as leaders. Oh, got this problem, got this problem. So the other place you can use DFS is like, you just go right— okay, hold on, I, I— okay, here, what's your desired future state? What would you like to have happen? If this were all resolved to your complete delight and satisfaction, what would that look like? And what happens, it actually creates a state shift in them. So they go essentially from below the line to above the line when they go from focusing on the problem, right? They're essentially doing this lack and fear thing. And so it's a really simple almost hack to be like, okay, well, what, what would you like to have happen? I just see again and again with clients, and now when I teach this to clients, they see this with their team members. They immediately shift modes to, oh, okay. Oh yeah, I want this and that and that. And then they can usually see how to get there when they felt totally stuck. And that way your team learns to solve their own issues more and more.

And Desi, especially when someone's frustrated or there's an issue like that feels heated, I think I just sometimes like, so what do you want? What would you want right now? Or what can be done right now? What, you know, what can I do right now for you? We did. Maybe next episode we can talk about this. One of the other huge things that we didn't get to is like the bridge. I call it the bridge, which is like you have your current reality, you have your desired future state. And I mean, that's in some ways that's strategic planning, that's prioritization, right? How do you— what are the things you do to get from here to there? Maybe we can just end on that. I know we're running out of time here.

Well, let me say one— I'll say one thing about it that comes up and yeah, we can of course, talk more about it. There's this quintessential example of DFS, which is John F. Kennedy in 1960. We will put a man on the moon and return him safely to Earth by the end of the decade. And in that moment, that seemed impossible. Like technology didn't exist to invent the technology needed to actually make that happen. And it happened, you know, 1969, you know, moon landing. And I think it's a beautiful example because I bring it up because a lot of leaders will go, well, I don't know how to get there. So like, how can I credibly tell the team we're going to get there when I don't know how to get there? How can I be so bold as to declare, you know, we're going to build this billion-dollar company, we're going to get $10 million in EBITDA? Um, and what I often say is the creative tension is a big part of the how. So if you're not willing to create the creative tension because you're scared because you don't know how to get there, you might— it's actually the creativity that is how you get there. So I think that's a really important point. That's what I think I see the, the best leaders do. They're willing to declare a future and believe it even when they don't know all the steps to get there, because they recognize that just declaring it will generate that creativity in themselves and their team that will make it possible. It's not a guarantee, but it becomes possible. So that's some of the how, um, and you really only have to know the next step, right? You know, the path is made by walking. Um, and then, yeah, we can't— yeah, this is— The Bridge gets a lot more into more like mechanics and business tactics and strategy and all that. So there's— there is stuff to talk about there, but I do— I think people stop before they start because most people are scared. I've had people ask like, what if we don't hit it? What if I say we're going to build a billion-dollar business and we don't? And they're scared of the fail. And I'm like, everyone knows what you're doing. You're being a leader. You're like galvanizing a team. They don't hear you as like it's a promise or guarantee and they're going to be mad at you.

Yeah. Well, I think language is important there too because when you say like, I want there to be a billion-dollar business or I wish, like I see this vision and this is what it looks like and how amazing it is, people Right. When you say we must be, we will be, we are worthless, you know, we're not going to raise our next round if we don't, then it starts to actually— everyone takes the heaviness of that versus the, versus the like the vision and the exciting aspect of what inspiration. Yeah.

Yes. And there is power in saying we will get there.

Yeah.

Like that is interesting that JFK said we will put a man on the moon and say I want like— so there is yes and right. It's way more powerful to come from authentic desire. And there is some boldness in just making a declaration because it creates that possibility in people's minds that then becomes self-fulfilling.

So good.

I encourage you all to play with DFS.

And there's a— if, to your point, Jesse, I Googled Dave Kashen DFS and there's an article. I was telling— I was like, people read this.

Like, oh yeah, I, I wrote an article, um, called Founders: It Doesn't Have to Be This Hard. Uh, we could put in the show notes, or if you Google it, and I, I really go into the nuance of creative tension.

I would definitely recommend reading that if, if you're, uh, curious about this. But good to see you, Dave. Thank you. This was awesome.

Yeah, always enjoyed it.

See you guys soon.