How Enjoyment (Not Hustle) Drives Real Growth

All right. Welcome everyone to Heart of Entrepreneurship. This is a passion project of mine and Dave Kashen's, and we're exploring, uh, this idea that you can be an entrepreneur and build a business and be ambitious while also keeping your heart fully open and loving, uh, and uplifting those around you. And that's the idea here. So, uh, I don't know what episode this is. I don't— we don't have any producers here. This is just— we're freewheeling it. What's up, Dave?

What's up, Jesse?

So there's a funny joke that I think Dave knows now, but maybe didn't know for a while with my friends and family, which for maybe the first 5 years I worked with Dave, I'd be talking to someone and I go, you know what I think Dave would say is— and then I'd go like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'd be probably welcome 70% of the time and 30% of the time they'd, you know, give me a middle finger and be like, yeah, shut up. Um, but you know, everyone and, and, and my brother, uh, at my 40th birthday gave a funny speech where he, he talked about me and Dave being lovers, which is not, well, we are just not in the way that you might think.

Um, we love each other.

We love each other. Yes. So in that definition, um, but So, so Dave, you know, in my world holds a big, big place and everyone knows about him. And anytime Dave starts working with another coach and he's like, oh, Jesse, you gotta hear what this guy says. I'm like, oh my God, that's like the granddaddy. Like that's somebody even more. So if Dave is like, if, if Dave thinks that coach, you know, he's getting coached by that coach, then he must be the man or the woman. Um, and I think that's true with Diana, um, Chapman from the Conscious Leadership Group and other, other folks out there. But I know recently you've been spending a lot of time with Joe Hudson and, uh, you've gone to a lot of his events and stuff. So today was gonna be kind of a unique episode where I think we're gonna go through some of the stuff you've learned recently. But, um, I don't know, maybe as a starting point, Dave, just kind of talk about Joe and your journey and getting to know him as a coach and what you've picked up, and then we can go into the, class?

Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a few coaches. Well, yeah, I consider myself a perpetual student. I love learning and growing, and I think you can learn a ton from other people.

Yeah. I think the first year I met you, you had this goal of personally wanting to spend $1 million during your lifetime on personal growth stuff for yourself.

Yeah. I think I, and funny enough, that's probably a copycat from Diana, who I think once told me she spent over $1 million. So I was like, oh, okay. I'm going to do that too. And I don't know if I'm there, but I certainly invest a lot. If you talk to my wife, she'll tell you I'm certainly the most convicted I am about, oh, I have to do this thing or I have to go travel for this thing is when there's some personal development or leadership development program that I really resonate with. So I had heard about Joe Hudson very, heard very like positive, you know, very fondly from people I respect. I hadn't been interacting with them. And then my, one of my closest friends had gone to one of his 7-day programs called Groundbreakers and was like, you know, we've done a lot of our sort of personal growth journey together. And he's like, oh, you got to do this, Dave. You'll love this. And I think I had already done the Hoffman Process and my friend had done it. And he was like, oh, it's kind of like that, but it's like you'll, you'll really like it. So basically just on, on that recommendation and my penchant for doing these kinds of things, I signed up. And so that was last September 2024.

Yeah.

So about a year ago.

And I do, I want to interrupt you for a second. Cause it's, you know, I remember when you were here actually for my 40th, my wife was like, do you have problems, Dave? And you're like, of course I do. Funny enough, we were in, I think I don't know if I told you this, we were in Japan and we meditated with a Buddhist monk. And she was like, do you ever get feelings, Buddhist monk? Like, are you ever angry about anything? And he's like, yeah, of course. He's like, someone cuts me off, like I'm angry. Um, but I think it's, I think it's always helpful for anyone listening. Like, like even Dave does, I mean, not even, you do a ton of this work. I mean, you do a, yeah, you're doing this stuff all the time. And I think everyone, I think it's some, you know, there's still some, I don't know if it's a stigma or orientation of like, well, I sh— you know, do I need the, you know, should I need those things? But I think the people who are, I've seen the most personal growth and the most whatever are actually people who are doing this stuff all the time. They're really invested in it.

Yeah. We're all human, right? And we have all our, our patterns. Same.

Yeah.

I, I had a coach, um, speaking of, uh, this guy named Steve Hardison that I worked with for a little while. Um, uh, he has a book called The Ultimate Coach, so. Interesting. Um, and, and he said to me once, the difference between the master and the student is that the master knows he'll always be a student. She'll always be a student. And I thought that was really, it struck me. Um, and, uh, there's something else I was gonna say around that. Oh yeah. I just, I think one of the things I most love about being a coach, uh, you know, I've said this a few times recently that I feel like what gives me the right to coach another human being is to be constantly doing my own inner work and reflecting and looking. Um, but I might make one tweak to your, the story you told about like, do I have problems? Just because I have a particular view of that word. Like, I don't really think that anyone has problems in the way, in the sense that we typically think of problems as there's something about reality that isn't the way it should be.

Right, right, right.

But I certainly have issues and challenges and patterns. Um, and I, I intend to not see them as problems, but just something to learn from and grow from. Um, so yeah, so I, I did this, uh, Groundbreakers retreat last September. Um, so it was an in-person 7-day retreat. There was 12 of us. And then Joe and Tara, and Tara's Joe's wife, and they work together. And then two other facilitators. And it was a profound experience. I got a ton out of it. You know, the, the mindful of some of the confidentiality stuff, but the, I could say what I got out of it was shifting the relationship with the voice in my head. And really learning and practicing welcoming all my feelings, which we've talked about a bunch in recent episodes. Um, but creating a lot of space and intention around welcoming feelings and even sort of conjuring and feeling feelings that maybe had been repressed or I hadn't felt in a while. And afterwards felt really like cracked open, much more sensitive, like finely tuned to my own feelings. Um, to what I really wanted. Uh, it just like felt like I could see, see reality more clearly. Um, I remember going for a hike afterwards and just like, just in awe of like the rustling of the leaves and the beauty of it. And, and that kind of experience, a little bit like if, you know, for those who've experimented with psychedelics, a little bit like a, you know, psychedelic or post-psychedelic journey. So it was really powerful. And then I, oh, actually, I think the first thing I did, sorry, just, just if you asked how I got introduced before that, I had done an online course of theirs called the Great Decisions Course, which really helped me see the power of, well, one, that we actually make decisions emotionally and then rationalize them. We're not really rational decision makers. And then two, just the power of, again, feeling all your feelings. To get to clarity about what you really want in making decisions, as opposed to trying to make decisions to avoid certain feelings or feel certain feelings. So I think that was my first entrée and got a little bit of exposure to Joe through that and then to Groundbreakers. And then he has this course called— that's on his website called the Masterclass, which runs for about 10 weeks. Today is actually the last day, the last session of that class. So that's, that's why I suggested maybe, because it's so fresh in my mind, be a good time to talk about it. Um, and I got, I got a ton out of it. I think, um, that the, the group is called The Art of Accomplishment. That's their firm. I think they do a phenomenal job designing courses, really inspired by it. Um, particularly like highly experiential. So that you're, it's very little, uh, content and a lot of practice and experimenting and exercises. Yeah. Um, yeah.

And it, it is, it's worth, I mean, I think the exercises are usually where all just like, just like real exercise, right? I think, I think it's a funny thing, you know, I, I always remember and notice when you can read about how to do, how to do great bench presses or ride a bike or read how to ride a bike or read how to hit a tennis racket. And there's books on all that stuff. A lot of them actually, and they're pretty specific and detailed and none of them will actually make you better at doing, you know, your chest will not get any bigger, your stroke will not. And I think the same is true for personal growth. And I think it happens a lot where I think it, people think it's the opposite. It's like, oh, okay, I get the idea now. Thanks for sharing that idea. Yeah, I'll, you know, I'll be more aware of myself or yeah, I'll, I'll figure out which emotions I'm not feeling. And I would, I would just tell everyone, for me, even it's a reminder for myself, like the exercises are where all the good stuff happens. And, and I, you know, I tend to be, you know, this like pretty skeptical naturally, I think. And, and I feel like every, you know, people can feel a little funny doing exercises. They can feel a little awkward or vulnerable or just like, Eh, what is this silly? And I've, I've be at the beginning of most of mine, I feel that way. And then at the end I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe that that was like so effective. So I think shout out to exercises. Yeah.

And I, it's funny, I often say to clients like, oh, if this, does this feel really cheesy to you? Great. Like in some way, like the more cheesy, the more woo woo, the more uncomfortable, the more, the more likely it's gonna be effective because it's different from what you're already doing. That's why it feels so uncomfortable. And it's interesting, the point you made too is, is a little meta in that. I think one of the things that Joe and Tara really stand for and have recognized is that it's the in-your-body, like somatic, you know, felt experience that actually shifts things. So to your point, even a really robust course with like really clear, profound insights. Um, only gets you so far because if it's just an intellectual concept, but you haven't had the shift, like somatically, you just don't shift the patterns. And one of the things I love that, that, uh, I'll paraphrase Tara a little bit. She said something like the, um, unfelt feelings are the glue that keep the unwanted patterns in place. So the unfelt feelings are the glue that keep the unwanted patterns in place. And so, so much of what we really want in personal development and leadership development is shifting patterns that are no longer serving us. So even just like, oh, okay, now I'm aware of it. That's, that is really powerful. Sometimes it'll just shift through awareness, but if there's a feeling around it, you're not yet willing to feel, it's probably not going to fully shift.

Right.

Um, so you just, you're on the last day of the masterclass. Yes.

You. Maybe fun. You know me obviously pretty well. Like if, what, what are the top takeaways for me?

Oh, I was going to give the, the sort of outline.

Sure. Go ahead. Yeah.

Let me do that. And then I like your question. I will, I will weave that in. Um, so the course is, uh, I guess grounded in these 7 core distinctions and I really liked the way they present these. Um, the first is connection over perfection. I'll go through all 7 and then we'll, we'll come back through like what they mean. Um, the second is enjoy over manage. The third is feel over figure. Uh, the fourth is want over should. The fifth is authenticity over improvement. The sixth is empower over power. And the seventh is love over defense. And by the way, uh, their podcast, which is called The Art of Accomplishment, is one of my favorite podcasts. And there is a pod— this is all in the master series. There is an individual podcast episode on each of those seven. So if you want to go deeper, we can put in the show notes. Um, you can kind of listen to seven more podcasts about those seven things. But we'll, we'll do our best to kind of summarize and give a taste. And, um, and then, yeah, I like your question, Jesse, like how do they apply to you? So, uh, connection over perfection is, well, you know, one of the things I like is they're, they're fairly intuitive. Like they kind of, you know, it's like, well, what does that mean? Connection over perfection that most people—

can I guess here? I'll, I'll—

yeah, that's fun. That's a fun game.

Um, you know, rather than expecting maybe your people you work with or your partner to be, do everything right, you emphasize to be connected to them, to maintain a loving connection, or maybe even with yourself, you focus on connecting with others versus being perfect.

Yeah, it's more the latter. Both are useful, but the way, the way I at least understood it is we tend to focus on, I gotta do it perfectly. I gotta get it just right. And that can actually, um, blind us from, or get in the way of just connecting with the human. And so in all, there's a lot of different realms of business where that shows up, obviously in our personal life as well. Um, the, I think the quintessential example they use is like, a team, it's a little like the ivory tower, like a team that like, we gotta get the product just perfect. So they spent, you know, a year and millions of dollars getting the building, the perfect product that then nobody wants or uses.

Right.

As opposed to a team that connects with their market, with their people, the humans, like, what do they really care about? What do they really want? What do they really need? And then builds that and iterates. And there's a lot, you know, YC said, you know, make something people want. Get out of the building, right? There's a lot of memes in the entrepreneur community around like, get in contact with your customers. But yet we still have a, I think a lot of people have a tendency, you know, even just internally, like I gotta just get it all perfect. You know, sales is another good example, right? I gotta get my pitch just perfect versus, hey, let me just connect with this human.. And I think it was in this section where they, uh, cited this like study of car, I think it was used car salesmen, which is funny cuz it's like the most, you know, like the butt of every joke of like the most, you know, salesy, smarmy, salesy. Yeah. Like slimy. And they said that the, at least according to the study that they cited, um, the salesmen who actually took the time and energy and, um, you know, really opened their heart to like connect with the buyer as a human and like understand what they actually wanted and cared about were like orders of magnitude. I think it was like 5x more, you know, had 5x more sales than the ones that like had the perfect playbook that, you know, they learned. Right. And there's all these like spin selling and, you know, sales in particular is one where there's lots of playbooks and there's lots of like best practices. And not that those can't be useful, but that ultimately it's actually the connection with the human that makes the difference.

Yeah, it's funny. I, uh, you know, I, we teach for Bootstrap Giants, we have the sales accelerator that we have a bunch of founders who go through it. And I've actually never taken like a sales course and I've also never distilled how I sell. Like I, I worked with Andrew and team and they've actually distilled it. And the more we distilled it, the more we're like, Jesse just builds a lot of trust with, like, it, it, it's just very like, he just wants to get to know people. And then he like, you know, and, and there's a lot of things like that I don't do that are, but that are against the book. For example, like I don't, like, you know, in the beginning, and I'll have students who challenge, they're like, hey, you don't do discovery in your first call. And I'm like, like, I'm like, yeah, because like nobody wants to hear my questions until they like know who I am, trust me, think I'm credible. And like, they don't want to sit there and, and answer. And that's like, It's very actually counter to what's, you know, oh, you're supposed to get on and say, well, what's your challenge and how can I help? You know, and, and I always believe that at least in the first 10 or 15 minutes of a call, unless somebody thinks you're credible and trusts you, they're not gonna actually open up in any meaningful way. And so there's been some interesting examples where what you say is something that I guess has always been somewhat intuitive for me. Mm-hmm. Um, the, we were another one we were talking about with the, again, the classic sales thing is, uh, I did this yesterday with a student or two days ago. Uh, it was like, um, he was giving the, uh, the objections people give on sales calls. Yeah, right. And so like, you know, how do they teach you to handle objections? Someone says, hey, hey Dave, you're too expensive as a coach. Like, they go, you know, the typical handling is, well, I could see why you might think that, but just imagine the value. And like, that's how the world is really trained. I go, and I, I did it back to the student, a version of it, I go, how do you feel now? And he goes, well, I feel like you didn't really listen to me. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's interesting. Like what? And he's like, but what else do I say? And I go, well, what if you just say, huh, it seems like a lot to you. And they go like, oh, it seems like a lot to you. And you know, how do you think about budgets? Like, you know, how do you think about, how do you decide what's a lot versus what's not a lot? And you just start asking some earnest questions. And I go, you may not make the deal, but you're definitely gonna, like, the person's gonna feel, and you know, it usually opens up trust and you learn a million different things and And so it's interesting that you say that because I think it feels a little bit like the, what's that meme that's like amateur salespeople, like, you know, ask discovery questions and give rebuttals, like professionals, like they do something different. They build trust and build credibility.

Yeah. And I think it's, well, two things come at one connection is felt, right? It's not like a concept of, oh, okay, I checked about, I told them about my personal history, or I ask where they're from, right? It's like, and when you attune, when you like bring your attention to like, how connected do we feel? It's, it's a different orientation than, am I doing this right? Am I doing this right? Did I get it right? And, uh, I think in some way, maybe paradoxically, it, it, it's like more charismatic, you know, when you're in this mode. And I know that, you know, I have times where I'm in this mode of like when I'm coaching and I'm like, am I saying the right thing? Like, did I, you know, it's like, it's, um, versus just connecting. And it's funny hearing your sales examples, cause I'm realizing, I don't know if I always do this, but I often, yeah, I do get that sometimes. Oh, that's very expensive. Or I think it's too expensive. Um, maybe it's just cause I'm a coach, but I go into coaching, I'm like, And not, not in a manip— I don't think most of the time in a manipulative, like, I gotta get them to buy. But I'm like, oh, so like you have the thought that it's too expensive. You know, I'm looking for, oh, is there a, do they have a pattern of scarcity or not believing they're worth it? Or like, how can I serve them in even this conversation, whether they hire me or not? And that is, yeah, it's more about the connection and the ser— you know, and being of, of service. And I noticed it feel, at least it feels good to me. It doesn't mean they always end up hiring me and that's okay. Right. That might not be what's, what serves. Um, this next one, I think will be a good one to your question. Like which ones are most relevant for me? I think it'll be a good one, Jesse, for you to reflect on. And I'll talk maybe more about how, um, the, the next one is enjoy over manage. And I, the metaphor. They use is like, you know, if you're floating down a river, right? You know, I use a similar metaphor when I talk about presence, like how much are you just enjoying floating down the river and how much are you trying to like get somewhere? And I think what's cool about the river metaphor is it recognizes like life does flow. Right? Like life is dynamic. Like if you stop trying to manage your life, um, things will still occur. And that sounds like, well, you know, super obvious, but I actually think a lot of people don't live that way. Like they assume that it is like inert unless I do all these things, like nothing's going to happen. Um, and Um, you know, I, I've used this, uh, metaphor with you, Jesse, that I learned from another coach, Brian Franklin. Um, we're just paying homage to all my, my teachers today, um, of like the sailboat captain versus the motorboat captain. Um, I think Brian, he's sometimes introduces that and like, like, this is what I do as a coach. I help you go from being a motorboat captain to a sailboat captain. So a motorboat captain is, um, you know, get the idea, right? Like if they want to go somewhere, they just rev up that engine, they point the boat and they go. And so the upside is they can go where they want to go. The downside is it takes a lot of, of energy, literally, and it's kind of noisy and smelly.

So I actually like looked this up on ChatGPT of like, what are the skills you build in either case?

Oh, that's interesting.

And they're like very, and the analogy is very apt still. It's like, oh, you need to like. Like you need to learn how to tune the engine and fix it when that, you know, there's a problem with it. You have to, you have to like be really good at navigating out certain, like a certain chart because you, you, you know exactly where you're gonna go. Like you're gonna go here, then you go there. And then, and the sailboat captain is like really good at understanding like weather patterns and where things are headed. They like, there's like timing, like they're, they, if you go on ChatGPT, they're actually, the analogy gets even better. Oh, that's cool. Yeah.

Like of an actual motorboat captain.

Yeah. Actual captain. Yeah. Like you actually read it and you're like, oh. Oh yeah, those are completely different jobs. Yes. Or completely different ways of being, I should say. They're still the same function. You have to get a boat from here to there, right?

Yes. Yeah. So obviously a sailboat captain, right? Very like, it's completely sustainable. Like as long as there's wind, you can go forever, right? There's, you're not gonna run outta fuel. There's no dirty fuel. There's no toxic smell. Right.

Right.

Um, but you're more, you have to, you're more like tuning into the wind and where does it want to take you and The adjustments are much more subtle, like, oh, just a little bit in on the mainsheet, a little bit in that, you know, it's just like this subtle attunement. And so that feels, that feels related to like enjoy over manage. Um, and you know, you made this point that like, if you, if you're a CEO or a leader, like if you think about the best people on your team, they actually don't require much management.

Nope. Yeah.

So. It's 'cause they're aligned. And he, you know, I think, I think he said like when he, when Joe and maybe Tara and the team, like when they interview, they basically say to somebody like, what's your dream job? And if their dream job is the job, they hire them. And if it's not, they don't. Because if the person actually wants to do the thing that you need them to do, they don't require a lot of management. And I think that's a really important, you know, distinction idea because I, you know, lots of clients. I ask them that and like, oh yeah, my best employees, they don't require much. But yeah, I spent a lot of time pushing and driving and I'm like, do you want to be doing that? Right. And how much of that is just, you know, fear of letting people go and tolerating, you know, people who aren't really a great fit out of, you know, taking more than 100% responsibility. I feel bad they're married or they have a kid or—

Right.

And I see a lot of clients who are Managing over enjoying. And one of the ways that occurs is by keeping the wrong, you know, the wrong people in the sense that people aren't really a fit on the team.

Um, yeah, it's funny watching when, when you watch kids, you know, my, like, I think this idea that life is just gonna keep flowing and like, kids are interesting cuz they just grow, right? Like they, they really just grow. Like, and, and it doesn't really matter. What you do or don't do, like their bodies are gonna grow and sure you can feed them a little better or do some other things, but they will just become like, I could die tomorrow and my kids will end up becoming adults.

Right. Like, but he, let's use, and he actually, Joe uses this example of like learning to walk, right? The kids are not like, okay, I'm, I'm 2 and a half. Like it's really time now. I better, you know, I've been crawling all this time. You know, or is that the right age? I don't remember. My kids are 13 and 16, but, you know, it's really time I start walking. Okay. Let me make my plan and okay, I'm going to start, you know, left leg for right. Of course, none of that. They just want to walk. It's almost like an instinctive impulse. Like they just want to walk. And so they start walking.

And well, and it's probably driven by curiosity more than anything, right? I mean, they grab something, they lift themselves up and they, then they do the thing where they, cruise, they call it, where they hold something, right? And they slowly start. Yeah. And it's a very, it's a really interesting process. I mean, and for my 3 kids, you know, Mila is our youngest. Like, she, she started walking late, you know, relative to Ricky. Like, but they all pick their own times, which is also really interesting. And it's all, it was all guided by their own sort of curiosity and interest.

Yeah. So what if we let our life be guided that way and preferences and wants. Um, and then, and this, that metaphor comes up in a few of these themes, like wants over should and authenticity over improvement. Um, but yeah, it's, I think it is important to recognize. And then, um, the other thing is if people say, I want to enjoy my life more, like where we tend to go is I need to rearrange my life and all the things that I'm doing so that I enjoy it more.

Right.

And, you know, he really challenged us to like, how much more could you just enjoy the things you're already doing? And it was one of the most striking exercises for me, you know, just practicing that. Cause when I discovered that I could, I'm like, that's fascinating. Like how, what am I doing differently that like I'm doing the literal same activity and I'm enjoying it more. Um, and there's, you know, There's sort of two flavors to that. One, like I've used this example before of, you know, for years I resisted doing like prepping my taxes. When I say I resisted, I did it, but I resisted it while doing it.

Right.

And yeah, it was total like trying to manage myself, right? Like discipline. It's time to do it. I got to do it. I don't want to do it, but I got to do it. It was miserable. So one, the biggest thing is I stopped resisting it because I'm like, okay, I'm doing it. You know, I stopped seeing it as an obligation, you know, Diana Chapman, I think at one point said, you don't have to do your taxes. Like you don't have to, it just, there's just consequences. I was like, oh, that's true. I just, you know, I'd rather stay in America and, uh, you know, not pay fines. And, um, so that helped. And I was like, oh, don't see it as an obligation anymore. And then I start, I let go of resisting it. Cause I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this thing. I might as well just do it. But I also asked my wife to sit down next to me. And maybe help, maybe just be with me. And so there was some of like an internal, like literally nothing might've been different, but I still was able to enjoy it more because I shifted something in the way I was relating to it. But then also, you know, I tweaked something in the experience of it where, because I love my wife and I love company and I love people. I was, I didn't feel so alone in it. Um, and I remember there was, there were some memes for a while around like literally like like just find a partner to sit next to you or be on Zoom with while you're working. It somehow works just more enjoyable when you're with other people, especially in the age of remote work. So that, so that, and honestly, like one thing I notice is if I just kind of open my heart a little bit more, and that's even that phrasing is funny, but I can feel what that feels like in me and like feel a little warmth around my heart, like even in this moment, Yeah. I'm like, okay, how can I enjoy this even more? It's funny. Cause it actually draws back to connection too. Like, oh, I can feel my, I love you. Like I'm with you. We're together doing something, you know, I can feel that, but I wasn't paying attention to that. So sometimes just shifting what we pay attention to. So I love this idea that actually you can enjoy the thing you're already doing more. Um, and you might choose to, you might make different choices if you're coming from a place of. What do I really enjoy as opposed to trying to manage?

Right.

Um, he said something really—

it reminds me of that when you smile, if you just smile, you'll feel happier and every— like, that's the first thing, like, hey, could I— I'm in this meeting, some meeting about taxes or meeting about whatever, and like, if I just smile or just like levity and, and create a little bit of levity, it always makes those things more enjoyable.

And yeah, uh, and I'm, I'm constantly asking myself that question since then, like, How could I enjoy this moment even more? How could I enjoy it? And it's cool because whether it's, again, whether it's like, like in this, I don't think I'm going to change anything externally, but I'm just like, oh yeah, this is so fun. Like just remembering how fun it is or feeling grateful. Or, um, and then there, you know, I think in our culture, there is especially entrepreneurial sort of hustle culture. There is this idea of like, I need to gut it out and be disciplined and manage and sacrifice. And he presents this provocative notion that really resonates with me that actually the more you enjoy it, the more efficient and effective you are.

Right.

Right. Because think about how little effort it requires to get you to do something you enjoy.

Right.

Right. And so if you're enjoying, and even, you know, let's just take like, I want to get to the gym. I want to start a workout routine. Right. If it's like a discipline gut force myself, right? Like anytime we, um, and this, this will come up again in like want over should. These, to me, these connect pretty deeply, but it's like we should ourselves, or we, you know, there's like a natural part of us that resisted versus like, how could I just enjoy exercise? Oh, I'll go play tennis, you know, or like, and then there's, it's so much more effective and efficient because there's not, there's none of this like efforting and forcing yourself to do it.

Yeah.

Um, okay. So by the way, I think this is a huge theme and it relates to the heart of entrepreneurship is like, could you actually, I mean, most entrepreneurs I know don't really enjoy the journey. And if it's true, and I think it is true that enjoyment leads to more effectiveness and efficiency, like that's a lose-lose, then why would you possibly be trying to manage and hustle and force and discipline your way to success when it's both more joyful by definition and more effective to just enjoy the journey. Yeah.

This feels like something we should unpack in a full, full—

I agree. I like that. Um, all right. So feel over figure. Um, oh, noticing time. I'm going to go faster. Feel over figure. I alluded to this actually from the Great Decisions course I did. It's this idea that instead of like um, not wanting to feel the feeling and going to your mind to try to figure out what to do really to avoid the feeling. Um, you just feel the feeling. And then on the other side of that is clarity about what you want to do and decision-making. The most common version of this is fear. Oh God, I'm scared. I got to figure out how to win, how to control the outcome. Right. Instead of just, oh, I'm scared. Welcome fear. And then, okay, what do I wanna do?

Um, yeah, I, I, I always explain this to people, like spousal stuff always comes up for me when to make these points sometimes. Cause it's like a little easier. It's like, you know, sometimes you're like arguing with your spouse about something and it's like, it feels log jammed. Yeah. There's just no way you're gonna figure this issue out.

Yeah.

And then you go get ice cream and you say, oh, I love you. And I love you too. And then you're like, what was that? Like that, that's not even an issue. It wasn't like, Not only is it not log jam, like, there's actually no issue.

Yes.

And, and it's because you've, you know, you've— maybe you felt something, or like, they're— like, a feeling ended up sort of bringing clarity to that situation. Um, or—

oh yeah, I love that. Yeah, point. And like, a little to the point we were joking about earlier, like, do we have problems or not? 90% of the time, the issues my clients bring are literally not real. They're not occurring. They're just feeling fear and they're imagining some issue in the future. What if you run out of money? What if this person leaves? What if we don't close these sales? What? It's like, well, is that actually happening now? No, but they're, they don't want to feel the fear. So instead of feeling the fear, they're going into their mind and trying to figure out how to solve this theoretical future problem and like control life so they don't have to feel it. And it's like, it is a superpower if you learn to just feel your feelings and expand your capacity to feel. Um, okay. Want over should. And again, I think it connects pretty deeply to enjoy over manage, but maybe it's a more tactical kind of micro of it. Um, if you really look, most of ourselves, most of the time are operating from should. And again, clients all the time, like, well, Dave, what should I do? What should I do? Should I do this? Should I do that? I'm like, what? According to whom, right?

Like, um, yeah, I actually have a funny story about this that, 'cause I, you know, obviously learned it from you and our work together and I, you know, I brought, bring it, brought into my marriage. Well, hey, like, well, we, we gotta do this, this, this, and this and this. Well, what do you want to do? Yes. And by the way, like for a lot of people, like my wife, like that's like a, wait, I don't even know what I want to do. 'Cause I'm so focused on what I should do. But it, but, and I, I also have brought into a business setting. And it's very strange to people. So I'll give you a little fun case study story. In, at Growth Assistant, we're figuring out how to like adopt AI in the business, right? It's obvious it's global talent. Well, okay. AI is potentially a threat, but also an opportunity if, if I, you believe like me that humans plus AI is gonna be what replaces humans, not AI by itself. And we were getting ready to like start to build agents to pair them with our GAs so that you could have this like powerful combination for say influencer marketing or whatever. And Heather, who's, who's running the kind of, was running this, like, she didn't seem excited about it.

Hmm.

And, and so I was like, well, what do you wanna do? Like, what, what are you? And she actually went and did like the Amazon press release exercise where she said, you know, I'm not that interested in building agents. I'm interested in enabling the people, our people to become AI experts so that they become really fluent with the tools and they're able to do stuff and work with clients closely on that. And she wrote this really awesome— and Adrienne, you know, it is— she, she saw me shift completely around it.

Hmm. Adrienne's the CEO of Growth Assistant.

Yes. Adrienne's the CEO around Growth Assistant. And I was like banging the table for this agents plus AI thing. And then I was like, when I saw, read the press release from Heather, I, I asked Heather, are you really excited about this? She goes, yeah, this feels— and I'm like, awesome. I'm in. And Adrienne, Adrienne is so con— she's like, I don't understand Jesse, you've been banging this drum for months. And I go, yeah, but. If the person who's responsible for it is not excited about it versus the thing she is excited about. And, and I said both have a tremendous market opportunity. They're different, you know, but, but I think that inside of companies there's a real, there's a real blind spot for founders when they don't ask the person like, do you want, is this, is this what you want to be doing? Like, are you excited about this? Is this firing you up? And, and they just say, no, we must do this or we're not gonna raise our next round of funding, or we must do this to sell the company. And, and then everyone does it because it's their job, but they, but it's, they're losing a lot.

It's a should. Oh, you should, I have to, I should. Um, and should has, yeah, sort of shame and blame in it. Right. It's like, oh, I should do it. I didn't do it. I should have done it. Um, also on the other side of that, a super, well, first of all, to your point about Dee and like sometimes being like, I don't know what I want. I think a lot of us have atrophied our wanting muscle to use that metaphor. And so it's really powerful to start attuning back into how do I, like, what do I want? Right. And learning to attune in your body, like, oh, this is what I really want. And like, can you even feel the sense of like, mm, like in Conscious Leadership, they talk about a whole body yes, which is similar. Like, oh, I really want this. No, I actually don't really want that. Right. And like how radical and powerful it is to live from your wants and from, from your whole body yes. And then I think it's a, it's a incredible tool for founders, for leaders to simply communicate your wants. Like I have so many clients like, I don't know how to get my team to do blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, did you tell them you want them to do blah, blah, blah? And they're like, oh no, because they're trying to figure out the right answer of how to manipulate them. It's like, just tell them you want it. And it's amazing how many times that's as simple as that. Um, so that's a huge, that's a huge really transformational idea to start living from wants over shoulds and trusting your wants. I actually trust, to your point, like with Heather, like I trust people's wants more than I think anything else in terms of like what's authentic for them. And I'm learning to trust my own authentic wants of like, oh, this is what's— how do I know what my authentic path is? It's because based on my authentic impulses and wants. The next was authenticity over improvement. And you know, you can see a lot of these are kind of weaved together. Um, to me, this is similar to the idea of self-discovery versus self-improvement. Mm-hmm.

Say more.

So one way to think about it is like you already are whole, perfect, and complete. And so the journey is really about discovering that and removing what's in the way of recognizing that. Um, most people do self-improvement from We might say below the line from this place of, um, something's wrong with me and I need something's wrong with me. It's like conditional love. Like I'm not lovable until, or I'll be okay or happy or peaceful or fulfilled when this other thing happens. Right. That's like that deferred life that most people do. Once I sell my company, once I make all this money, once then I can, you know, then I'll feel good or okay. Um, which. Isn't true. You know, I, I, I, uh, I posted something recently that this, from this golfer Scottie Scheffler, was like, yeah, you know, I think most people would say best in the world. He keeps winning and he had this really authentic, uh, you know, interview with, I think, Golf Digest or something. He was like, yes, I win the tournament. And then for like 2 minutes I feel this euphoria and then it's like, okay, where are we gonna go for dinner?

Yeah.

And like recognizing that like It's so fleeting. That's so fleeting. Um, whereas discovering who you truly are is this like gift that keeps on giving. And the other thing, and you kind of use this example, like your kids, I think that was a great metaphor or thing to think about. Like your kids are constantly growing, but they're not constantly like we are like, I gotta improve. I gotta be better. So, um, and Joe, even I think in podcast, I think he uses example where he, he gave a client an experiment. He's like, okay, don't improve for the next 2 weeks. Like do nothing to improve for the next 2 weeks. And of course in the 2 weeks, client's like, oh my God, I grew in this way and this way. And this, like, you know, it's like the oak tree doesn't, is not like, I need to get taller and expand my branches. Like nature grows. We are part of nature. We will naturally grow. Putting your attention on loving yourself as you are, being authentic, will lead to all the growth and improvement that wants to happen versus this— it's kind of similar to this like manage and should. It's like this, I need to improve, um, which, which Joe says actually tends to make the improvement less efficient and effective. Um, and that really— oh, there was this beautiful question. I think Tara asked, um, yeah, I think I can share this. A lot of it's confidential, so I'm not, I'm not going into the exercises and things because they want people to have the whole arc of the experience, which I totally respect. But I think I can share this question, which was, if you could not improve anything about yourself, what would you have to let go of to feel peaceful? And that, I love that question. For me, it was actually funny enough. It was basically enlightenment, like thing I've been playing with is like, I need to be enlightened. I need to be fully enlightened. I've had these glimpse experiences, but I need to fully be awake and enlightened. And I realized it's been like a manage over and, you know, I've been like trying to get enlightened. Of course, it's a fool's errand. And I really, I actually, like, I let my heart break. Like I felt really I was like, oh yeah, what if I'd never get there? And I just let my heart break and I feel, you know, yeah, I mean, paradoxically, like more peaceful, more— and the next one was empower over power. And the idea is like, when we don't want to feel our fear, we crave power over people, life, because we don't want to feel scared. So we think, oh, if I have enough power, then I won't have to feel scared because I can control everything. Which of course is a fool's errand, but that's what, that's how we go versus, um, he defines empower, they define empower as being fully authentic regardless of the consequences. And they say this thing in the podcast I love, like, imagine you're Superman or Superwoman and you're like, you fly to the top of this mountain and you're in a world with no kryptonite. Like, just imagine that feeling. Like, that's the feeling of being like fully in empowerment. And when you're feeling that way, you don't need to pretend to be someone else in order to make sure that the light— yeah, you just speak your truth. And so I've been, I really love that notion of like the, the—

and you're likely to also be open-hearted and sensitive and empathetic because you're so powerful that you, you don't feel the need to make someone small. In fact, you you do the opposite, probably.

100%. And actually even, I love that you just brought that up because there's sort of like two sides to the mountain. One is unconditional love and one is empowerment. And they're actually, if you let yourself fully open your heart and feel unconditional love, it feels pretty much the same as I'm Superman on top of the mountain. They actually meet. So empowerment and love are tightly connected. Which leads us to the 7th distinction, which is love over defense. Right? Most of us, quote unquote, learn, especially in the first 8 years of our life, um, to defend ourselves and close our hearts to feel safe. And the, the journey, um, is to live, learn to live undefended and open your heart back. Um, and that in part is through a recognition of who you really are, because the thing that you're defending tends to be your ego, your self-image, avoiding certain feelings, right? And the more you recognize that that's not who you are, and at least start tuning into the question, who am I really? Or what am I really? You start to shed this identification with a thought basically, or a mental construct that you're defending. Which makes it easier and easier to open your heart and live undefended.

Beautiful. So what were they? Let's take, take them from the top one more time. Sure.

Connection over perfection. Enjoy over manage. Feel over figure. Want over should. Authenticity over improvement. Empower over power. And love over defense.

And I assume they purposely end on that one, cuz in some ways that's kind of like above the line, like at the end of the day, right?

If you're, uh, I believe they're very intentional in the arc of the 7 and yeah, I could see how the others build up to this recognition of I don't need to defend and openness to love.

Or if you're just in like all the first, like if you're loving, you're gonna be authentic, you're gonna be empowering, you're gonna be you're gonna focus on connection. Yes. Beautiful.

Yeah.

Well, thanks for sharing that, Dave. Yeah. I think those, that can make some fun. I think there's some, probably a couple of ones we can go much deeper on in the future.

Yeah, let's do it.

And, uh, and I'm always, well, I think enjoying these things is awesome. I'm enjoying this with you. And I also, I, I, I want, we kind of talked about this at the top, but I wanna acknowledge you, like, I think it's amazing how you're always learning. And you're always trying to find these new things. And I, I always joke like I'm the beneficiary of it because I get the coaching session. You're like, here's the thing I saw. And I'm like, okay, for awesome. But it really does make a difference to me. And, and I think to everybody who is in your circle.

Thank you. And you know, it's funny in that spirit of enjoy over manage, like I said, so someone recently like powder day skiing, personal growth retreat, like those are pretty much the same level of excitement for me. I was talking to my sister recently. She's like, you're always so much happier when you're amidst some kind of personal growth course. So I literally just love it. It is my pleasure.

Awesome. All right.

Till next time.

Have a great week. See ya. Bye.