How to Change Without Willpower, Guilt, or Discipline

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Heart of Entrepreneurship. This is a podcast with myself and Dave Kashen. Dave is a decorated coach and I'm a serial entrepreneur, and we both are committed to building businesses from love and heart and believe that's possible, that you can build ambitious companies while lifting others up and helping others versus maybe beating them down. And this is a podcast where we explore all those topics. What's up, Dave?

What's up, Jesse? Good morning.

All right. I got a fun one. I think this topic is— it's going to be very tactical and very practical, but I think very relevant to a lot of people. So I'll start with a story. So I— the last 3 or 4 years, I've gotten onto a very steady exercise schedule. I exercise 4 or 5 times a week, maybe more. It feels easy. It flows. I'm busier than ever. I have 3 kids, multiple companies, like busy, you know, I've got more on my plate than ever. And for probably the like 15 years prior to that, I was in this interesting cycle, which I'm sure will resonate with a lot of people of like, I would gain 30 pounds. And by eating and not exercising. And then I'd be like, oh, I'm going to do P90X and I'm going to— and in 90 days or maybe, maybe, you know, 100 days, I would lose 25 pounds and I'd be fit. And then same thing would happen and the same thing would happen. And I was kind of in this cycle of just like losing and gaining weight. And that's changed now. Like, I feel very consistent. And one of the things that I, you know, that's changed for me, one of the things you say and coaches say is like, whatever you resist persists. And I wanna talk about that topic a little bit today because specifically, I think for me, I, one of the things I didn't share a second ago was like, I almost have stopped caring about working out. I don't, it's not a thing I like tell myself I need to do. It's not something that I'm, I'm like forcing. If I miss a few workouts, no big deal. Whereas like 10 10 years ago, if I missed a few workouts, I'd be like, oh, it's all over. Like, I'm done now. I should just quit this while I'm ahead. And so, I wanna talk about this idea of changing ourselves, but oftentimes we get stuck in, I'll call it a guilt loop that actually doesn't create permanent change. And I think most people I know, including myself, like, let's just, lots of people are stuck in this and it's very counterintuitive actually. Specifically that like once you notice something about yourself, I think most people when they notice a problem or like an issue with themselves, they wanna be different. They immediately start like beating, like beating themselves up over it. And instead, like what's worked for me and I think what you would coach people on is like, oh, first you have to like love that part of you. And, and I don't know. So I, I wanna unpack that today and, and give people some practical tips around this. I love it.

Yeah. And it could probably apply to almost any habit. And, you know, working out is one that a lot of people connect with, and weight, and eating healthy. And, um, so a few questions for you. First was, uh, do you enjoy, or to what degree do you enjoy working out now?

I mean, tennis I enjoy, weightlifting not, not as much, but You know, on average a 6 or 7 outta 10. It's not something I find particularly enjoyable. It's become more enjoyable over time, especially the feeling afterwards, but not, I mean, I, I gotta do personal training.

Yeah.

Because I can just go there without any brain and he just tells me what to do and I do it and it's, but I feel great afterwards.

Uh-huh. Okay. So I mean, 6 or 7, that's not like 2 or 3. You don't, you don't hate it, but you don't love it other than tennis. It's just kind of like, yeah, it's good, and you like how you feel afterwards. Just curious. And then what do you tell yourself is— was like the key to how you shifted from that yo-yo pattern to this more consistent, sustainable pattern? What do you think made a difference?

Um, I mean, I think a lot of it is the You know, I mean, I learned this stuff from you, but I think it's like, I don't know if it's like choice versus guilting myself is how I might say it.

Obligation.

Yeah, obligate, like should, have to. Should, have to. And I think I was stuck in this cycle of like, oh, I should work out. Yeah, I really should be healthier. I shouldn't, you shouldn't be gaining so much weight or whatever it is. And then I was like, okay, yeah, I'm going to do this. And then that it wouldn't last, that willpower. And this has been just more of kind of like Again, like, I don't feel that I have to do it. And I'm like, but it'd be good if I, like, it'd be nice if I did it. It'd be, it's helpful and I feel good afterwards. And it sort of, I just, I like, I lowered the, the sort of temperature around it, the pressure around it. And then it just, just feels like, yeah, like it's a thing I do. And I think again, another related one for me that's like the very telling is I might not work out on vacation for a whole week. Like, and then I just come back and I get right back on my schedule and it's no big deal either way. And I think the old version of me, if that happened, I either would have gone to like a vacation and been super annoying, like, we got to wake up and work out. We're going to, you know, we do it. Or if I missed it during vacation, I'd come home and be like, I'm done. Like, this is over.

It's all ruined. My streak is ruined. Forget it.

It's done. We're done with this. Yeah.

One of the things I'm appreciating is how counterintuitive what you just said is. Because most people think more pressure that I put on myself equals more results. And what I hear you saying, and it resonates from my experience, is actually all that pressure doesn't lead to more results. Less pressure, um, not none, but less pressure can actually lead to better results, which I just think is really short-term versus the long-term. Yeah, that's a good distinction.

And I think I remember one exercise that we did, we've done a lot, but we did really early on was I might tell you like, hey, I make up something. I tend to talk too much in meetings. I think I want to talk less in meetings, Dave. And, you know, my natural inclination was, okay, like, give me the tools, fix me, Dave. Like, I want to talk less in meetings. And your first thing would be, well, hold on. Like, Let's talk about that. Like, why do you do it? Have you— what— and you basically did this sort of like soft version of like a cost-benefit. Yeah, right.

What are the benefits of talking as much as you do? And what's—

yeah, you've gotten all these benefits. That's why you do it. It's almost like seeing why it served you. And I think oftentimes we don't see that. And then seeing maybe what it's costing you. And then again, it like creates just more like, oh, okay, I'm going to choose to be a little different. Or there's just this thing of like forcing ourselves versus choice that Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. So let's go there. So my understanding is that humans have counter will. So really, if you think about any time, and especially when you're a kid, you know, someone was trying to get you to do something. I mean, the obvious, you know, go to bed, you know, do your homework, right? Like trying to force you to do something. We naturally have this counter will of like, no, Right. And, you know, if you're a parent or remember being a kid, we're kind of, you know, that's like one of the first things we learn is like, no, no, no, I don't want to. No, no. And so there is this way that anytime we feel we're being forced to do something, not fully accepted just as we are, we naturally just resist whatever it is. And I joke sometimes, even if your parents are like, have a cookie right now, you're like, no, I'll have it when I want to. Right. It's like, right. Um, So I think it's worth just recognizing the truth of that. We seem to have counterwill, right? Especially, you know, when someone's trying to— like, we, we feel like we're being coerced or forced or managed. Um, so the same is true when we do it to ourselves.

So, um, do we do it to ourselves because we learned— like, our parents did it to us, and so then we learn how to manage ourselves with the way our parents managed us?

I think that's probably sometimes, often, I think that's probably true. Maybe we don't know any better. Like it just, it seems like a good idea if I'm like, I want to lose weight. You know, it's like, okay, you know, you should lose weight. You got to be better about it. Right? Like there's certainly a lot of like in our culture, there's a lot of like discipline is really lauded, you know, like you should be disciplined and you should just push through. And, you know, like, I have a different view. I don't, I don't think— I mean, there's different ways we can interpret the word discipline, but the way it's often used in these, like, you know, gotta push, build muscle, like, it is a lot of, like, core, almost— it's almost like there's a core premise that we're fundamentally bad or flawed or, like, you know, moving toward doom and destruction and chaos and, you know, on, you know, on health. And we need to control like the id and the ego. If you ever read any psychology, right, like we need to— the superego needs to control the id. Like that's the id being like this pleasure-seeking, the one that just wants to like engorge and, right, you know, be lazy and all, all these things. And so I think there's this almost like underlying belief in our culture that, um, and then that we then internalize Essentially that we're inherently bad and need to be controlled, right?

Or we're inherently like, there's this thing you, you word choice, like, you know, make, make yourself wrong or make someone wrong for it.

Yeah.

And like, I had to feel like if Andrew were here, he'd be like, what's wrong with that? Like, why can't we put, why can't we force ourselves to do things? Why can't we make ourselves wrong when we're not doing the right thing? Like that, that seems like a good thing. Why?

Like, yeah. So, I mean, you said it earlier, there's nothing wrong with it per se, other than the fact that it doesn't seem to work very well. You know, it's not sustainable. It doesn't actually lead to the outcome you want long-term. To your point, you know, yo-yo dieting, yo-yo habits are probably the most quintessential and like obvious example of it. But you can see it in all kinds of different habits where you're like, I'm gonna listen, I'm gonna listen more. I'm gonna meditate. I'm gonna be more empathic. I'm gonna, you know, speak up more. I'm gonna, Whatever the thing is you're working on, if you're doing it from a place of, "I'm not good enough as I am.

There's something wrong with me and I need to get better at this." It seems to work in the short term but not in the long term.

Not in the long term, yeah.

And it leads to kind of these up and down. And then the other thing, I think it's sort of like, at least in my experience, I'd be curious people listening if they agree, like it tends to be like kind of a miserable existence. Yeah.

Like, right. Like the drill sergeant yelling at you, your internal drill sergeant, you know, it's kind of stressful to constantly have your inner voice be like, you're not doing it faster, more, better.

You're not, you know, it's like, so like that David Goggins guy, you know, he's like, have you, you know, that is, oh yeah.

I've read, I've read several of his books.

So intense about everything. And then I'm just like, I see him and I'm like, man. And I haven't read his books, but I like see some of the social media stuff. I'm like, but I just like, this doesn't seem like, I don't want to, I don't want to be him.

Yeah. I have a mixed reaction. Part of me appreciates the, like, indomitable will, you know? Like, there is a spirit, like, this— this— it feels in a certain way empowering to access and, like, recognize, like, we have— we humans are incredible. We have this, like, indomitable spirit and will that can endure and can push through. So I don't want to, like, dismiss it altogether. At the same time, from my experience, there are ways to channel that, and there are much more joyful, easeful, and even more effective ways to create the results you want. And, you know, look, he's very, he's very candid and vulnerable in the book about his very difficult childhood. And, you know, right, um, so it's, it's fairly clear that a lot of what's causing that motivation is this like, um, you know, chip on the shoulder to like prove something. And, you know, we've talked a lot about, um, you know, when you're coming from that place, it's, uh, you know, it tends to be like this toxic, you know, form of motivation that isn't ultimately sustainable. Um, and the other thing is like And we'll come back to the, the Shaman Guild because I think it's important. But, you know, we— you've asked a few times, you've asked listeners a few times, like, okay, why do you want that, right? Like, if we, you know, we've talked about like startups, you know, founders wanting to be successful. Okay, why do you want to be successful? Oh, because if I'm successful, then I think I'll feel, you know, joy and a sense of freedom. And, um, so like if you think about spending several years torturing yourself to get to this moment where you think you'll feel joy and freedom, and then we know from lots of empirical evidence that joy and freedom feeling doesn't really last anyway. So it's like, are you going to spend years torturing yourself to have like a few minutes of joy and freedom? Yeah, right. Like, there was this— there's— I was really vulnerable, and I thought poignant, um, uh, video interview that Scottie Scheffler gave recently. I don't know if we've talked about it before. He's the, arguably the world's, uh, best living golfer. He's winning everything.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we talked about it. And again, what's the point of this game anyway? It's fun for a second, and then I like—

yeah, he's like, I win the tournament and I'm like so excited for like 2 minutes. I'm like, okay, where are we gonna go for dinner?

Yeah.

So like, if the rest of your life is torture for those little moments of glory and excitement and celebration, like that doesn't feel like a really, well, it's like a bad trade-off.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, like what led me down this path was like our first exit and like then being successful and then feeling like, wait, it's kind of similar to that golfer, like, wait, this is it? This is what I thought was gonna like give me, I joke, I'm like, give me superhuman strength and wings and I was gonna just be this like, And it didn't. I was just the same person with, you know, when I logged into a certain account, I saw certain numbers on the screen and it shows up in different ways. Like my marriage, I think we've talked about this. Like, I think Dee had a lot of things of like, once Jesse behaves this way, like I will feel good. Yeah. And now like, and she says it like, she's like, Jesse's 10 out of 10 as a husband now. And I still don't feel that good. So what the hell? Like, and I think, yeah.

And I think almost anytime you think if this happens, then I'll feel good, happy, safe. Free, it's a limiting belief that isn't true and doesn't serve you because it implies that you can't feel that right now, and that's inherently limiting. So, um, so I want to just name that because, you know, I'm saying torturing, I'm using that a little bit extreme, right? It might not feel like torture, but it is kind of— it is a pretty— yeah, it's an—

it's a dis-ease.

It's a dis-ease. It's a—

in—

it's like an inner war. It's like there's the one that, that wants to just, uh, relax and take it easy and, you know, do things that feel good. And then there's the one that wants to like, we gotta get in shape and we gotta lose weight. And it's like this inner battle. And so that's the counter will, right? Like the part of us that feels judged and coerced and forced by this other part of ourselves. That inner battle, I think, is what causes that yo-yoing. It's like Fine, you know, the drill sergeant wins for a while, but then at some point, the, you know, the one that wants to just relax and be indulgent is like suppressed long enough that it rebels and it's like, okay, screw it. Now I'm just gonna eat, you know, I'm gonna binge and eat as much as I want and just hang out on the couch and watch Netflix.

You know, it's interesting that disease— I'll just say this for myself— like most people don't even know there is anything else, there's another way of being. And I've only noticed it after a lot of this work and a lot of these things where I'm like, oh, there's periods where I don't need anything to be different. There's like months where I'm like, it's all great, this is all great. And then there's months where I go back into the like, well, no, if I could only, you know, sell this thing and make this amount of money, then I would have a private jet and that would be awesome. Or if my wife only showed up a certain way. And but I think the most— for the first 34 years of my life, like, I always was just in a something needs to be better. Like, I'll feel this way when I get to that place. So it might be common for someone listening that like you've never experienced even a day. And, you know, you've— you— I remember there's a cool exercise for people. Like, this is one way that you convinced me or helped me to see it was like, could you just feel it this way for like 1 minute? For the next minute, could you sit here and be like, everything's great, there's no problems? Like, and once you realize that, then you're like, you know, every minute is just another minute you stitch together.

And ultimately, like, for every moment even. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'll just pose it to the listener as a, as a experiment. Like, in this now moment, could you let go of wishing anything was different than it is? Just for now, just for this moment, could you let go of wishing anything was different than it is and let go of needing to control anything about the future? And if you are willing and you do, you see that, oh, I, I can actually feel a sense of peace and joy and freedom right now. And it does start to at least poke a hole in the idea that I, I need something to be different in order to feel peace and joy and freedom. Because the irony is the thought that you need something to be different is what's in the way of the peace and joy and freedom. Right. And so if we, if we, if we now take that back around to shame—

and say that again, actually, say that again.

Sure.

I think that's a really important point.

The thought that you need something to be different is what's in the way of you feeling that sense of peace and joy and freedom. Yeah.

So it's not that you don't have a billion dollars, it's the wanting it, and, and that creates the actual experience of dis-ease. It's—

yeah, I want to be precise with our language because I actually love wanting. And we may want to talk about— I think that'd be good to talk about, like, the difference between, like, wanting and feeling like we should or need to or have to. Um, but yeah, the way I would say it is, if you think you need a billion dollars, or when I have a billion dollars, then I'll feel abundant and free and joyful. That's how you're blocking abundance, freedom, and joy right now.

Right now, right.

So in any moment, thinking you need something other than this is what's in the way. And, and it's, you know, obviously there's a lot of irony in that. And then the only reason you have that minute of peace and joy when you get the billion dollars is because for that moment you don't need anything to be different than it is, because finally life has matched your idea of how you think life needs to be, but life is dynamic. And the mind being what it is, it'll then go to, "Yeah, but I don't feel the way I thought I would feel when I had $1 billion," or, "Yeah, but that guy has $10 billion," or—

I remember you told me once that you had a client that sold his company for $1 billion and was thinking, like, was stressed out after that, thinking he should have sold it for $2 billion. Totally. And that's the human experience.

That's what humans do. At least, it's the human mind. It just tends to look for the gaps. You know, compare, and, um, just sort of seems to be the nature of mind.

So let's, let's assume the— a couple things, and people can decide if they believe it. Like, when you, when you have this— when you force yourself to do things, self-disciplining yourself and kind of playing that game, it's probably not long-term effective, and it probably is not that enjoyable of an experience. If you're, if you're doing that and you're having effectiveness and you're enjoying your life, then, then this probably doesn't matter, right?

Right.

But let's, let's assume you're like, yeah, that resonates, Jesse, I'm the same, and I want to try something different. So what would you have somebody do?

So I think it's important to recognize that that experience, what's inherent to that experience, is shame and guilt, right? So, so, you know, shame is, well, it's a feeling, and it's, it usually is attached to a story that there's something wrong with me. And guilt is a feeling with, along with the story that I did something wrong. So, you know, just, just the distinction between shame and guilt is shame is at the level of being, like, I am broken, wrong, flawed, bad. Guilt is I did something broken, wrong, you know, flawed, bad.

Yep.

Um, and so I think that's what's at the heart of this pattern is, uh like I'm fundamentally bad in some way. That's why I'm not eating healthy or exercising regularly or being kind to people or whatever way you think you should be. So I just want to acknowledge, like, this is the way most of, I think, humanity, or at least Western world, sort of operates. To your earlier point, it's like, I'm fundamentally bad, so I need to shame myself into behaving in good ways, right? And I mean, you go all the way back to like original sin, right? Like, we, you know, this whole religion's based on the idea like we're sinful and we need to be, you know, sort of corrected. And a lot of parenting is like that too. Parents use shame to get us to do the things that they want us to do, right?

Um, well, governments ran on fear. I mean, there's a whole, the whole night. It's funny to watch people play tennis by a joke like tennis is that in basketball you talk shit to the other person, you know, in tennis you say nice things to the other person, you talk shit to yourself.

That's funny.

And like, you can, I mean, you could see a very wide variety of how people speak to themselves on, in a tennis court.

Yes.

Like sometimes it'll be like, come on, Jesse, come on, you got this, you know, but you'll hear people say like, what's wrong with you?

Like, right.

Oh God, you should have.

Yeah, yeah, you should have gotten that. Yeah. And that It's, it's like this misguided attempt to correct your behavior, but it really doesn't work, right? And, you know, even if you look at parenting, like, the things you try to use shame to get your kid to do, it's like, um, mutually assured destruction. Like, you end up having to, like, layer on more shame because they resisted more. And that's kind of what we do with ourselves as well. So Yeah, so shame is like this, this almost like self-judgment, and then the part of us that feels judged, you know, resists it, right? Like if anyone's coming to you and you don't feel accepted by them, you're not very open to what they're trying to get you to do, versus, you know, sort of paradoxically, if you feel loved and accepted as you are, you're much more open to the idea of, um, you know, shifting or you know, growing in some way that, you know, that maybe the person sees for you.

So why, why are shame and guilt such— I mean, I know like Brené Brown does a lot of work on all this stuff, but like, why are they such corrosive or toxic things? So I mean, it's funny, here's a random aside. In Indian culture, they call private parts shame shame.

Oh wow, did you know that? No, I did not.

That's your shame shame.

Oh gosh, that'll, that'll cause some interesting dynamics around your sexuality and experience of sex, um, and even just body probably. So, uh, I'm, I'm going to draw from some what I learned from Joe Hudson around this. So, um, he said a few things I think are really insightful around shame. One is shame is like the electric fence right? Like if you're trying to train your dog, you know, you have this electric fence, and then when they go, you know, go, they touch it, they feel the shock, and then ultimately they learn not to go near it. So I think it's a way, you know, again, back to this idea that like this sort of, um, I think false presumption that we're fundamentally, um, unruly, you know, uh, anti-social, you know, like somehow bad. You need to be corrected, I think shame is the core mechanism from that. It's like how we civilize, you know, the uncivilized or something like that. And so, um, you know, you can even— if you even just picture a dog that actually has that experience, you know, they get the— like, they essentially take on the posture of shame, right? Their head will slump down, right? They look— they don't look very empowered. They look very like you know, beaten down. And so it's a little bit like— it's like beating ourselves into submission or something like that. It's not a very empowering experience. So, and then shame— the other thing that Joe says, shame is essentially like a way to put the brakes on all the other emotions. It just seems to be what happens. It's like— it just like puts the brakes. So like when there's something that occurs that is just too intense to feel, especially as a kid. Like, shame will come up so that we don't have to feel it, and we suppress those other feelings. So I think, you know, we've talked in a number of episodes about how important and powerful emotional fluidity is to our ability to thrive and be fully present and energized and clear. Um, and so I think they're very related. It's like, I don't understand Siri doesn't understand what I'm saying. Um, and so when we feel shame, we just like block the flow of emotion and it creates this like, um, buildup of, uh, energy. And what's interesting, and maybe this is getting to your question, um, oh, by the way, let's talk about shame cycles for a second because I think this is some of what happens, right? It's like, okay, I'm trying to eat healthy. I'll just talk about myself. Like, I have a sweet tooth, or at least a story I have about myself is that I have a sweet tooth. Maybe that's a limiting belief. I notice I often have a craving for sweets, especially at night. And for a long time, I was in a shame cycle around it. I would be like, okay, I'm not gonna eat the sweets, you know, I'm only gonna do it on weekends. And then Thursday night, you know, I'd look in the freezer and just a little— I have these really small bowls, I'll just have like a little bit of ice cream in a small bowl, and then I eat it. And then almost immediately I'm like, ah, what's the matter with you? You said you weren't gonna do it. Why'd you do it? Um, and, um, so, you know, first of all, I set the intention from a place of like shame. It wasn't like, I really want to do this thing. So it's almost like I didn't have a clear agreement with myself. It was like an agreement from below the line, like, okay, I should do this thing, right? Um, and then But then I'd feel like the shame around it, and then I would like wanna, um, distract myself or like alleviate that feeling. So then I might have a little more ice cream, you know, because I like— I want to feel better. And like, I think that's the pattern. It's like I feel shame and then I want the shame to go away, so then I do something to distract myself, and then I feel shame around the behavior I just did. Um, I think that's a common cycle. And, you know, so ironically, like, the shame actually, uh, well, actually, I'll use Joe's comment: shame is the lock that binds the chains of bad habits.

Hmm.

Like, it actually keeps it in place. So very paradoxically, um, what I've learned to do, you know, through the work with Joe is welcome the shame. Because it's actually, again, what you resist persists. It's the resistance to the shame that keeps the whole thing in place. Because I'm like, I don't want to feel that shame, so I'll go have the ice cream so I feel better. But now I feel shame, and I don't want to feel that shame, so I'll go do this thing. So, you know, and so I really— I played with this, and I was like, okay, welcome shame. Now, I don't welcome the— I don't welcome or believe the thoughts that come with the shame. So it's not like, yes, I am, I am bad and undisciplined. I don't believe those thoughts. I see through those thoughts. But I welcome the physical feeling of shame. Like, I might let myself, like, hunch all the way down and just like— and I feel that tightness in my stomach, and I just, I just stop resisting it, and I welcome the feeling of shame. And I've invited a number of clients to do this as well, and pretty consistently what I see is the pattern at least lessens and lightens. So will I tell you that I no longer eat any sweets? No, that's not— I haven't like stopped eating sweets altogether. I'm not totally sure if I want to or not because part of me is like, I love eating sweets and I love like indulging in the deliciousness of life, right? And, um, and I feel like kind of like what you said, it just doesn't feel charged for me anymore. Like last night, I— it was funny actually. I literally last night I took out the ice cream and I was like, okay, what am I trying to avoid feeling, you know, by eating this ice cream? And I, um, I put the ice cream away, like I didn't let myself have it. And I really sat with that and I kind of had a temper tantrum on purpose. I was like, yeah, there's like this part of me that's just like, but I fucking want what I want. And like, I don't want to not get what I want. And I did. I had like a little like, I want it, I want it, I want it. I let myself like have a temper tantrum. And I realized like there's something in me, I think from childhood relationship with my dad, where I like, I wasn't getting what I want and I wasn't, didn't fully allow myself to feel that like temper tantrum of like how much I wanted it and how sad and frustrated I was not getting it. So I, it's been interesting for me as I just play with like, what's the feeling I'm trying to not feel, or I'm trying to feel in eating the ice cream? Uh, it— well, I'm learning a lot about myself, and I think it's the path to freedom and choice around, like, do I want it or not? And then I made myself a little tiny bowl of ice cream, and I had, like, whatever it was, like, maybe it's half a scoop, and I enjoyed it. And, and I stopped there, whereas in the past I might not have stopped there, right? So, you know, one, often the behavior is really just a way to avoid feeling some feeling, um, and, and if you allow yourself to feel that feeling, you no longer need to do that behavior. And so, so step one is feel the shame, welcome the shame. What that will do is allow the emotion that's behind it to come through. So behind the shame, there was this like angry little kid. It was like, but I just want what I want. I don't, I don't like not getting what I want. And if I could feel my frustration and sadness around that, then the compulsion, like the need to eat the ice cream, kind of dissipated. And then it's more of just a free choice of like, do I want it or not? Right. And I think I'll just share one other thing. Yeah, go ahead.

Well, it, it, so one, it sounds like one tip for people is like, welcome the shame and try to get curious about what feeling you're trying to avoid around that.

And then welcome that feeling. Yeah.

And then welcome that feeling. And it, it sounds the, the, I use the cost benefit one a lot with people. 'Cause it seems it's a funny one. 'Cause someone will walk in and be like, man, you know, I'm getting feedback from my team that I don't, I'm not clear enough. Oh, I need to be clearer. I wish I was clearer in my, you know, in my, my instructions or whatever. And, and it's interesting that you start to like, you point out the pattern. You're like, well, well, why were you not like, think about your whole life. Like you've chosen to be this, you know? And I mean, again, stuff you've taught me, it was like, oh, you're 6 or 7 out of 10 on, let's say feedback as an example and giving feedback. I was like, well, what, what are the benefits of that? And I think when you ask someone that, when they're telling you that they don't like something about themselves, they want to change something, the reaction is like, what? What do you mean the benefits of it?

Yes.

And then they go, no, well, I guess like, yeah, it kept me safe. I didn't, you know, I didn't have to, I don't always have to have a difficult conversation. And, and I think like I would encourage people just like whatever behavior before you try to change it first, see the benefits that you've received, why you've chosen to do that basically. Yeah.

I love that because One, it implies what I think is true, is that we are good. We're just trying, you know, we're just— we might have ineffective strategies to get our needs met, you know, but we're always trying to— like, everything we do has intended positive outcome for us, you know, given our perception of reality. Um, so it sort of connects with that notion And two, like the maybe corollary to what you resist persists is that you can't shift what you don't accept, right? It's very hard to sustainably shift what you don't accept. So in some way, the benefits question is an invitation to self-acceptance. It's like instead of judging myself for not giving more direct feedback, um, or, um, I'll just take that example all the time.

That's a good one.

Or being late all the time. Yeah. Can I look at like, well, what's the benefit of that? Well, I get to feel the sense of freedom. I get to, in the moment, like decide if I just am enjoying this conversation and not be like a slave to my former commitments and, you know, be rigid with myself and be more flowy. Like, there's always, um, at least perceived benefits. We're not crazy, you know, most— at least most of us, uh, or not Anyway, we don't need to go there. We are a little bit crazy, but, uh, we're at least coherent within ourselves. And, um, so yeah, I love that question. And then, then the next question, which is worth asking, is what are the costs? And from my experience, we often ignore and don't fully face the costs of our behaviors, because if we did, we, we might actually shift them. And so Interestingly, the whole— sometimes the whole like shame and blame and all of that are a way to avoid actually facing the costs, right? Right. And taking responsibility so that like, we'll often just be like, okay, I'm, you know, like, I blame myself. I'm— I shouldn't be late. This is bad to be late. It— and then it's almost like, okay, I've slapped myself on the wrist, so now I'm off the hook, right? Rather than really looking at like, yeah, what does cause that behavior, right? And what is the impact of that on other people and my relationships and the things? And so ironically, when you blame yourself, you're much less curious, and so you don't really face the, you know, both what's creating the pattern and also what the impact of it is.

Yeah. And you said something earlier, I think, that's even, even like being late, some of these things are kind of like classic character flaw-y type things, I think. The other thing I would give voice to around this though is you said that you made a comment earlier that life is dynamic. And for founders and startup people, they're always like, oh, everything's changing all the time. It's always, you know, and we talk about this, I share this a lot where it's like, you know, during my time at Ambush, I went from being the CEO of a 0-person company to a, you know, 7-person company to a 30-person company to a 100-person company to maybe a 200-person company. If I, if I told you those individually, you'd say, well, the same person shouldn't run those, those 5 companies. They're all different companies. And yet most founders, and even more crazy, they'll run 1,000-person companies. Right. And so the other thing that I find valuable about this cost-benefit is like there actually are behaviors at different stages, even of parenting your kids, of running a company, of your marriage where like, oh, the thing we used to do like that was there was benefits and costs and that made sense. And now that equation has actually shifted a little bit, right? Like It used to be, right?

But we're habitual creatures, so we get a little bit stuck in our old patterns.

And then, and then we go, yeah, like, oh, I'm a micromanager. And it's like, well, yeah, it made sense when I had 10 people to kind of know exactly what they were working on and micromanage. And I do still get some benefits from that, peace of mind, whatever. But the costs are we can't move as fast, or we get slowed down, or we bottleneck. And I think that, that's the other reason I really love the cost-benefit as a really simple exercise for something you want to shift versus What again, what we often see is, oh, I'm a micromanager, either, well, that's how I am, I'll always be like that, or like, no, I need to change it and I need to go. And I see a lot of founders flip and immediately they're just like floating way above the company and they don't actually calibrate to what the reality of the situation is.

Yeah, I had a few thoughts as you were saying that. One is fear, and I think shame relates to fear, tends to put us in this binary mode. Of like this or that. So like, I'll just keep playing with your example of micromanage. Like either I'm a micromanager or I'm totally hands-off. And I see that a lot where, like you just said, where founders will flip-flop and they've, okay, I'm, you know, they get feedback. Oh, I don't feel empowered because you're micromanaging. And like, oh, that's bad. I shouldn't micromanage. Okay, now I've got to like totally let go and be like high level. By the way, I think the, the Brian Chesky founder mode, um, article, I think that's one of the reasons it really resonated with so many founders because we've had this meme for years now that micromanagement is bad and right, which is a total like should-based, right, shame-based approach to the conversation. And so a lot of founders have internalized, oh, micromanagement is bad, I shouldn't do it. And then they're in this fear-based binary thing of, okay, that means I should always delegate, you know, and let go and get out of the way. And so in a way, it gave people permission. But then the other— then the opposite thing happened where people like, oh, founder mode, that's the good thing, letting go is bad, so I should be— right? And the whole point is there is no should, right? The question that arises if you let go of should is essentially, what do I really want and what actually best serves this particular situation in this moment?

Yeah.

And look, there's times as a founder where you want to micromanage, and when you want to micromanage but you should yourself into not, it just creates all sorts of drama and like mess, and your team can feel it. And, you know, and if in that moment you're like, guys, in this, for this thing, I want to micromanage it. I want it to go exactly the way I want it to go. I want to dictate it. Like everyone will breathe a sigh of relief because they're like, oh, okay, fine. If you do that all the time, you'll— you probably won't attract or retain, you know, people who desire autonomy and are, you know, super talented. And that's okay. Like, if you're a founder who's just like, I just know I want to be the dictator, fine, then go find— hire and find a bunch of people who just want to be followers. That's right, that's viable. I don't see it often, um, but the point is not binary. And I think anytime there's a—

it's like a situational awareness. One way I always get this point across to founders on this specific topic is he's like, oh, I don't want to micromanage, I need to micro— well, what if you were selling the company? Would you be involved in that? Would you be every day updates? Would you want that to go exactly as you want it? Like you're saying, the answer of course is always yes. And so it's like, oh, well there are certain things that are important enough that you will. And then that's my point of just like everything is a, you know, they're more or less. But to your point, I think this idea of like if you're stuck in this either-or, yeah, really, you really miss all the nuance.

Yeah, you're probably in a shame or fear kind of, um, cycle. Um, there was a question that was posed to me recently that I— it just pierced me. And this— the question was, if you, if you could never improve anything about yourself ever again, You couldn't improve in any way. What would you have to let go of to be at peace? Hmm. If you could never improve in any way going forward, what would you have to let go of to be at peace?

Yeah, for me, there's like, I like a belief that life is about growth and evolution.

Huh.

Because if I let that go, then I'd be, I'd be chilling. Yeah.

What's, what, what's interesting to me about that answer is, I don't know, I don't know if the word about— I don't know if life is about growth and evolution, but life does seem to grow and evolve. And, um, actually Joe Hudson told this story, like, he ran an experiment with a client and he said, okay, for the next 2 weeks You're not allowed to improve in any way. Like no intentional improvement. Like don't try to improve in any way. And then like the client came back 2 weeks later and was like, "Oh my God, I grew in all these different ways." Right, right, right, right. So that's kind of the— I don't know, the trick or the paradox. Like an oak tree is not like, "I got to get taller and spread my branches to have more sun." It just grows. And we are part of nature too, and we just grow. So in a way, all the like shame and self-management and self-improvement can actually get in the way of the natural growth that is— was already wanting to occur. And from my experience, the more that we follow our wants, right, rather than I should do this— like, our wants are authentic, shoulds are generally external, right? So, so authentic in the sense of this is my own path. Like, I have no idea why I want what I want. Like, that's a mystery to me. Like, why do I want to, uh, I don't know, um, coach people? And why do I want to, like, you know, run a retreat and, and have this feeling of love? Like, but I, but I feel the, in the authenticity of that want. Um, and I think that's how we connect with our authenticity, is tuning into, like, what do I actually want? As opposed to, you know, should tends to be someone else's idea of how things, you know, are supposed to be or were supposed to be, or an internalized version of that. Um, there's one other thing I wanted to say earlier, just to, just to connect dots, because you were saying how, um, oh, like, as an entrepreneur, our company grows, and so there might be an older version of, uh, like, a, a behavior pattern that was worked in an earlier version that no longer works, um, or a thought pattern. And I think if you just superimpose that onto like childhood and adulthood, like, I think that's the core challenge of the human experience, is the patterns that we learned to adapt as a child when we really didn't have many resources and, um, you know, wisdom we tend to continue into adulthood and we're almost like superimposing the past onto the present and reacting to situations in the way that we did when we were children. And I think that's some of the core of like adult development is learning to recognize those old patterns and say, okay, no judgment, like that made so total sense that I learned to people please because that's how I created harmony in my household, and it didn't feel safe to not have harmony. But if I'm still people-pleasing at 25 or 35 or 45 or 65, that's probably just an old pattern that's being over-relied on, um, as an example. So I think that's some of the deepest work we can do, is like, what are these old patterns that are really no longer serving me?

Um, yeah, that makes sense. So what is— is there a third, you know, rule of threes? So we talked about the the shame and acceptance that we talk about.

Welcome shame. Look at what, what's the feeling that arises, or the feeling that I'm trying to avoid, or I'm trying to feel through this behavior, um, and then see if you can stop avoiding it or stop being attached to it, or find an— you know, it could be find another way to feel it, like a healthier way. Like if I'm trying to feel sweetness by having ice cream, maybe I could go give my son a hug or just connect with my heart or something. There might be another way, a more direct way to create that experience that you're actually wanting because the ice cream is really just a strategy for some underlying want. And by the way, that's a good distinction in general. Almost everything we're doing is a strategy for some underlying experience or feeling we want. There's almost always a more direct way to get that want now rather than, you know, later. Um, and then I think a third thing might be, um, again, I'll credit, credit Joe Hudson here, has really taught me about the power of experiments. Like, start running experiments to see what works. Like, what works and requires no discipline. So As a really simple example, if I don't buy ice cream and don't have it in my house, and I make an agreement with my wife not to buy ice cream, or at least to only buy mint chocolate chip, which I don't like, which I sometimes have an agreement with her around, it's actually very easy for me not to eat ice cream if it's not in the house. I won't like go out to the store and buy it. I won't, you know, so like, that would be a great experiment for me to run. Okay, let's see, if I don't have ice cream in the house, then what happens? Do I— will I then eat chocolate? Or, you know, or like, if— or if I don't have dessert-type food in the house, it's actually super easy for me to not eat it. Um, so that's a cool experiment because I could run that experiment and see, oh, it doesn't really require discipline for me, um, because it's not hard for me to not buy ice cream in the store. That's like, it's not, that's not the moment I'm craving it, so that's no big deal. Um, it's hard in the moment when I'm craving it, if it's there, to not eat it, right? So my point is, um, well, it's like just making something smaller too.

I like, that's a, if you can just make it like everyone, again, it's, it's whole idea of like we make these things so big in our mind and then like when I signed up for personal training or whatever, I wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna work, I'm gonna lift 3 times a week. I was like, oh, let me just Try this once a week and—

oh yeah, that— yeah, there's a whole body— like, I learned this all from, um, BJ Fogg, the Stanford professor. He had this whole model. It was like B equals MAT. I think they've evolved it now, but so B, behavior, happens when, um, there's a sufficient level of motivation— that's the M— there's a sufficient ability to do it, um, at the time that you're triggered. So, M-A-T, motivation, ability, trigger. And this was more of a model of like, how do you get people to do things? But you could look at it either the, the converse or itself. Um, and he was designing products, right? This was like a class at Stanford around like product design, but you can apply it to any kind of behavior. So, and, and the main thing that I remember from his talks, and I, I, I did a course of his, was the ability— the trigger is important, but the ability is also important, i.e., like little bits of friction actually make a big difference, right? So if you either make it like way easier to do the thing— so in your example, I'm just going to go to this personal training session once, right? And that might be a domino thing that, okay, I went once, I'll go again. Or he says like, if you just put your sneakers by your bed your shoes and sneakers and socks by your bed, and just, just your, your commitment is, I'm going to put my sneakers on when I wake up, and that's it. Well, I already have my sneakers on, I might as well go for a run, right? Like, that's way easier than, I'm gonna start running, you know, 3 days a week for the next, you know, year, versus— so it's like, you want to design almost like the smallest, easiest experiment that you think, you know, minimum effective dose that you think might make a difference.

Right.

Um, so yeah, reduce the friction, reduce the kind of ability required. And then triggers are helpful. Like, I no longer, um, rely on my memory. Like, I don't, you know, I'll put something in my calendar or I'll put something on my desk or stick, you know, I have clients put sticky notes on their laptops or like structures are really useful to trigger yourself because I don't think, yeah, most of the time it doesn't work to just try to remember. Um, so my point in all that is design some experiment around the behavior you want to start doing or stop doing, and then see if the experiment works. And that framing is really important because, again, if we're like, okay, I'm going to stop eating sweets for this next, you know, 2 weeks, and then we eat sweets, then the immediate thought is, oh, again, I'm bad, I failed, I screwed up, versus I'm gonna run an experiment where, I don't know, I, uh, I'll, um, put a rubber band around the refrigerator, or, you know, lock the fridge after 10 PM or something like that, or, or just like agree with myself to not, not open the fridge after 10 PM, and I end up opening the fridge and eating ice cream, then I'm saying, okay, that experiment failed, right? So instead of it being personal, like, I failed, forget it, I'm never gonna— it's like, okay, that experiment failed, what else can I try?

Yeah, I'm reminded of like, remember we were deciding to move to St. Louis like 6 years ago and we were just like, oh my God, like we're gonna move all the way to this new city, you know, the city we haven't lived in since we were kids, and what if the families, all this stuff. And I— you helped us. One of the things you were like, well, what if you guys just try it for 2 years and if not, you're gonna— you can move back to California. And that like, it took this thing that felt so big and so heavy and it brought it into this like This sort of like, okay, like an experiment, like, okay, yeah, like flexibility around this. And, and I think that's another—

and it's almost like we, we need to, or it's useful to almost trick our mind. Like, our minds will naturally resist change of any sort. So you want to, like, the message to your mind is we're just trying this little really small simple change. To your point, right? Like, I'm gonna just run once or run for 10 minutes, you know, once a week for the next 2 weeks.

I'm gonna be on time for 2 days, right? Feels— does it feel good? Because these are all we were talking about before, behavior change. Or let me eat healthy for a couple days and see how I feel.

And then once you do it for a few days, like, okay, I might do it for a few more days. So these like domino kind of behaviors tend to work way better than I'm going to now for the rest of my life, I'm going to be a healthy person and I'm never going to eat you know, bad food again or junk food again. It's just too much of change and our system just rejects it and, you know, creates too much fear. By the way, just a funny story about my sweet— what I'm calling my sweet tooth. In our old house, I don't know why I haven't done it here, you know, I had this conversation with my wife and she was basically like, just control yourself, you know, like, oh, sorry, I was like, could you please stop buying sweets, you know, like candy, cookies, ice cream? Like, I can— it's not hard for me to not eat them if they're not in the house, but if they're in the house, really hard for me. It's like, just, just basically like the, you know, the mentality, just, well, come on, have some self-control. And I'm like, no, I'm like, I don't, I don't have it, I don't want to have it. I want— and, um, she's like, but I— but me and the kids want to have this. And so we came up with a win-for-all solution, which is we bought a safe, literally bought a safe It was our suite safe and the 3 of them had the combination and I didn't. And it was awesome. It totally worked.

Really?

I don't know why we haven't done it here, actually. Maybe we should try that again. Although, just random funny story, when we moved out of that house, I guess we left the safe behind and our neighbors called my wife and were like, "Hey, there's like this safe here, you know, do you guys need it?" My wife thought it was the candy safe and she's like, no, no, no, it's fine. You can throw it away. And this is kind of miraculous. I don't know how this happened, but basically my, the guy we're friendly with who bought our house, like threw the safe out into like a dump and miraculously it like hit something and smacked open and all these savings bonds came flying out.

Oh my gosh.

And there was like thousands and thousands of dollars. I think tens of thousands of dollars of savings bonds. And he very graciously ended up somehow retrieving them. But, uh, so be mindful of which, which safe is your candy safe and which safe is—

yeah, and, and, and a good safe because I don't think safes are supposed to pop.

I know. Yeah, it's kind of the whole thing. It's kind of crazy. All right, but anyway, you get the point. Like, that was a great experiment and a great example of why try to like you know, test my, my discipline when there's a solution that doesn't require any discipline. Like, I literally couldn't open the safe, and I knew I couldn't, and so it was no big deal. I didn't eat candy because it wasn't there and I couldn't access it. Um, and that worked. So do what works.

All right. Also, just to recap, we, uh, we— today we talked about behavior change or things you want to change maybe about yourself and How if you're constantly disciplining yourself and shoulding yourself, oh, I should be this way or that way, it might lead to short-term results, but probably not long-term results, or leads to like a sort of up and down, and also probably won't be that fun. And there's other ways you can do it. Some of them are actually, you know, I think the 3 we talked about were actually facing the shame and letting it in, and then whatever is the feeling behind it and feeling that, whatever that is behind the thing that's making you kind of beat yourself up. The second one was just looking at the benefits and the costs of whatever behavior choice you've made. And then the last one is finding little experiments in small ways to shift yourself. And there you have it.

There you have it.

Thanks, Dave.

All right.