The Limiting Stories Entrepreneurs Tell Themselves—And How to Let Them Go

Welcome to the Heart of Entrepreneurship Podcast, the podcast where Jesse says to me, "Andrew, we could definitely get more viewers if we do an interview show where we talk to entrepreneurs who can bring more people to listen to us." But instead of going outward and bringing these famous people who are in my contact list, we're going to go deep and talk about the heart of entrepreneurship, a topic that most entrepreneurs don't want to talk about. And most business people probably think they don't really have much of a heart in the office. But this is where it is. And I have to admit, I'm getting some kind of like nourishment internally from these conversations and it's despite myself. And of course we're talking with Dave Kashen, Jesse's longtime coach. Jesse, I have a conversation I wanna bring up today about us and our relationship. And I think maybe the best way to tee it up is to talk about your relationship with Dave going back.

Yeah. Well, before we do that, I think Andrew, we can bring, we want to bring famous entrepreneurs on here and talk to them about this stuff.

Do you think famous entrepreneurs want to go into their heart? No, they want to go into their heart.

I think they're so— No, I think that's a good story you have, but I think there's plenty of entrepreneurs like Rick or like others we've talked about who would absolutely love a show like this. I think that's, that's, that's part of what, that's what we're going to work towards. I also will say that I read some guy, uh, Diary of a CEO guy today, and he said that He's been doing his podcast for 7 years and like 95% of his listeners came in the last year. And so he's like, these, you know, these are the kinds, as you know, as you're a podcast expert, but you, when I, you know, so we have to be patient.

Is that what you're saying?

Well, and we have to do something that we actually enjoy and that nourishes us. Otherwise we're, we're going to just, we're not going to do it real quick.

Just thought around this famous entrepreneur thing. I listened yesterday to a podcast. With Sam Altman talking about how he found meditation and, you know, has learned inner calm. And like even the quote famous entrepreneurs that you most would think don't want to talk about this stuff and don't focus on this stuff, I think whether they're closeted or out in this dimension, I think a lot of them have discovered the power of this, the heart and the inner game.

Yeah. And I think they're all human beings at the end of the day. And I think, yeah, of course. Let me put it this way. Another funny thing, Andrew, is when I talk with most founders and stuff, this is the stuff that gets everyone most interested. I could talk about revenue and I could talk about growth marketing and all this other stuff. But, and that's why I think the gap in the market is no one talking about this on a podcast show. But in any case, I get a lot, I talk a lot about coaching very publicly and I get a lot of entrepreneurs who go, oh yeah, tell me, what does a coach do? Give me examples. Give me stories. And so it's, I've kind of become like a very good storyteller of my experience with Dave as my coach. He's the only coach I ever worked with. And one of the stories that came up for me this morning was when we first started working together, you know, he was like to tell me, tell me, tell me the story, like what's gone on at Amplify. I said, well, you know, I worked at Goldman Sachs, then I started this lead gen business, and then we discovered Facebook ads, and then We pivoted and we sold that business off. We probably shouldn't have sold that business off, but we did. And then we grew it and we had all these clients and we changed our business model. And I'm not sure if we should have changed our business model. Then I wanted to sell the business in 2015. And I, you know, we totally should have sold the business in 2015 because now it's 2017 and, you know, the business has gone sideways with this new strategy and it sucks and I'm not having fun. And I, that's why I hired you, coach. And that was, you know, probably longer than that. And Dave's a very patient listener, but that was generally what I said. And one of the first exercises we did that I give to a lot of people I work with, they're entrepreneurs, they say, okay, Dave said to me, okay, well, here's a little worksheet and one side says facts and one side says stories. And it takes a little bit of actually explaining this, right? And Dave, you do a better job. So you explain what's a fact, what's a story, how do people mess these up?

Sure. A fact is something that a video camera could record. It's like what actually literally occurred. And the story is just the narrative, the interpretation that our mind does around the facts. And one of the challenges is humans are like storytelling machines. Like we just do it so automatically that we don't realize it. So You know, I'll do this exercise in groups where I'll like cross my arms and look down and I'll say, what do you notice about me? And people say, you're closed off and you're uninterested and, you know, you're hardened. And then I'll say, oh, what, you know, which of those are facts and which are stories? And people sort of laugh and chuckle nervously because they realize almost everything that they said is stories. But it's just our minds interpret reality so quickly that we don't realize that we're telling ourselves stories.

So, so I did this exercise and the facts are like, started Ampush in October of 2009, you know, ran our first Facebook ad in June of 2010. Facebook called us in January of 2011, made a decision at a meeting to switch business model, like, you know, ran a process to sell the company, chose not to sell the company. And they were all facts. They were again, like today's, like they were all recordings.. And then in the second column, I write all the stories around them. You know, shouldn't have sold the first division of the business. Really should have sold the business at this time. This business model was holding us back from our true greatness, whatever it was. And what it did for me at least was I recognized how much I had essentially interpreted a slanted view, let's call it, or my perspective as just truth, as the absolute, this is what happened. And not as, as some reality I had been creating. Um, and one of the ways—

and what should have happened and shouldn't have happened.

Yeah. So what should have happened, what shouldn't have happened, the mistakes that were made, they all felt like facts to me that, hey, it was a mistake to not sell the business in 2015. And one of the big things in that exercise you do is you go through each of the storyline story bullets that are parallel to facts and you go, well, how could the opposite of that how could that be true? Like, and then there's another easy way to reinforce facts, like the opposite. How could the opposite of started Ambush in October 2009 be true? Like, it can't be true. Like, that's the year, that's what's on the date of the incorporation. But pick the wrong business model. Well, that could certainly be, there's 5 ways that could be wrong, or not wrong, but, you know, the opposite could be true. Or should have sold the business in 2015. Well, you know, I ended up not getting to work with Dave. What if I had not? Yeah, I would've never worked with Dave if I sold the business potentially, right? Okay. Well, that's a way that that was not a mistake. It was actually exactly what was meant. And so in my experience, and Dave, you can comment on this, what it really does is it just sort of reduces the charge around, around your perspective on something that took place. And in that, it allows you to have a little bit more of open-minded and clarity. It allowed me to have more open-minded clarity around my journey. And in some ways, kind of like, I think a lot of entrepreneurs don't actually, I think they suppress a lot of stuff. They don't actually let it go. They think they're over it, but they're not. I thought I was over things, but I wasn't until they got dredged back up. And then it actually let me process them and sort of let them through. And then they were sort of in the rearview mirror and they just didn't hold a charge anymore. And that allowed me then to create the future I wanted to create because I wasn't sitting there beating myself up over the past. And like, I play tennis. I think you guys both know that. Like, you know, the classic thing they say is like, you can't play the next point if you're still beating yourself up over the shot you just missed. And I think a lot of us do that even very unconsciously. We, we, we hold on to that.

Yeah, the cliché thing I sometimes say is you can't get there until you're here. And the same idea, like we're holding on to the past, holding on to stories. If I go really meta, I just think there's like life and then there's our mind's idea of how life should be. And at any given moment, we're sort of choosing between the two. And if we choose our mind's idea of how life should be or should have been, right, to your point, we create suffering for ourselves. And if we choose life as it is, then we don't suffer. And most people play the game, including entrepreneurs, maybe especially entrepreneurs, play the game of like, let me get life to match my mind's idea of how it should be, which could work for like a minute. But even then, like the fulfillment and peace that you have when you finally got the big payoff or outcome or whatever, you know, it doesn't last very long. Or you play this game of can I learn to be with life, accept life as it is? And to your point, Jesse, that a lot of the, the mediating way that we do that is do we believe our stories about how life should be or do we not? And let's be honest, most of us get pretty righteous, right? It's like we want to be right about our stories. And, you know, there's like, like this cliché for marriage counseling. Would you rather be right or have your marriage work?

Right?

Would you rather be right or have your life work? It's like this, this like compulsion to be right often actually gets in the way.

And I, you know, it's funny, I feel you should say, do you want to be right or be happy? You know, I hear people say that. And I honestly didn't understand what it meant for many, many years. I was like, what do you mean? There's always a right and a wrong. I did not even understand the concept that there could be, that you didn't have to be right about something or that there, like, there rightness was a, it was also sort of a point of view.

This idea I learned recently that every story that our mind tells us is partially true. I've been finding really useful. And the trap is either we hear the story and we believe it's wholly true, right? Like, let's take a simple example. Let's say you have an inner critic and your mind's like, you're weak. So either we're like, oh God, I'm weak. We believe it's the truth about ourselves and that we suffer, or we believe it's wholly untrue and we try to fight against it. No, I'm not weak, I'm strong. And then we create all this resistance. And I just been finding more and more as I play with it, just like, oh, how is it true? I'm weak. Yeah. I'm like, I'm weak. Like sometimes I like eat sugar when I'm trying not to. And, you know, I mean, it's like for a human body, I get hit by a truck, you can't bench press 200 pounds. I can't press 200 pounds anymore. And I did once. And yeah, like, and I'm strong, right? Like it's polarities, right? Both are true. But, um, yeah, I think that idea that, like, all the stories are partially true— that's why asking yourself, how is the opposite true, is such a useful exercise. It's not like, oh, I'm wrong and the opposite is more true. It's just if you see both sides, you're sort of righteous, like, grip on the story loosens.

Now, one thing that, Dave, you and I have been talking about that I still don't accept is focus on now and where I am instead of where I want to go. And to me, the the big charge always came from where I want to go. If I think about even the first job that I had in college, that at times was a little bit boring, I would put down in code the computer that I would be able to buy if I did a good job here and earn money, and that motivated me through the annoying parts. And that to me is what gets you going and fired up and energizes you. Where we are today is not always that kind of Thrilling.

Well, let, I wanna come back to that. I, I had that same issue, by the way, for many years that Dave and I worked through, I think. But Andrew, one of, one of the reasons I think this came up for me is because I have a story in my mind that you have a lot of stuff that's happened in your past that you haven't actually let go of. That is still, that is still in your story. Something you did wrong, a mistake you made, a business venture that didn't go the way it should have. And I'm just totally making that up based on what my interactions. And one of the other things when I did this activity, again, just to give it some voices, I had been sort of making myself wrong for a lot that happened up until 6 or 7 years. And the second I was like neutral towards myself, I was like, ah, it was like, yeah, there's good things and bad things. And I, you know, like it was neutral. It, what happened happened and it just happened.

And then it just was what it was.

It was what it was. And, and, and as soon as I got to that place, where it ties into what you just said is it, I felt so much more excited and empowered to go build the future. Not that I had to go build that future because of the shitty step, like, cuz I was carrying all that again. I was like beating myself up in the next point in tennis because I was like, oh, you fucked that point up. You fucked that point up. Okay, this one now you better play really good. And, and that's why I'm gonna win the match because I like, so that's, that's actually, I think where this came up for me this morning when we were thinking about what to talk about was I think you've done a lot. Like, I saw this YouTube video of you, Andrew, at 20-something years old. Dave, you got to see this, where he's on Good Morning America and he's running like the billion-dollar— what was it? The billion-dollar giveaway.

Billion-dollar jackpot. I owned Grab.com and that was my way of getting attention for it. And Warren Buffett's company backed it.

Wow. And you've done a lot of stuff. And so my story though is that you haven't actually given yourself the ability to kind of go, you're still beating yourself up over what may or may not have gone the right way or the wrong way in those places. And you haven't sort of—

You know, I would, I think there might have been a period there where I thought I could have sold this for $170 million. This woman, Rosalind Resnick, wrote an official letter on her publicly traded company's letterhead offering that. And maybe there was a little bit of that, but truthfully, I almost died so many times, like, work-wise, that I just felt grateful to be alive and not be in deep debt. Like, I took on to do that thing at some point. I, I was, uh, $5 million in debt as a 20-something-year-old guy, and I was burning out. And I thought, okay, now that I'm burning out, I have all this debt, I'm not even going to be able to take time off. I have to go and get like a shitty job and use the shitty job to have a shitty life. And somehow recuperate, that's not going to work out. And when I didn't have to do that, I just felt grateful for like every day. Um, I don't think I've got that. I definitely have regrets, but I don't think I'm looking back on that. If I have frustrations, it's more like with the today than with the past.

I'm like, I want to let Dave do his thing. I'm just staying quiet.

Then I'm open to maybe like, maybe I'm suppressing it.

Well, when I hear you say I definitely have regrets, I get curious because regret sort of inherently comes with some story that something should have been different than it was.

The ones that I have are like, we just hired Rachel to help organize the company, and Rachel and I stopped talking for a while because I felt really bad that we didn't I was too burned out to close out the relationship on a project. And thankfully she was mature enough to close it out and to handle it well. But I was just so burned out that I disappeared. And so when she reached out because she'd been reading our newsletter, the Bootstrap Giants newsletter, I said, you know, the one thing I wanna do is just be really quick and open about how I was feeling. And so I said that. I don't think it's the kind of thing that I lingered on, but it was definitely present in my head. But that's the kind of stuff that I have.

You feel sad when you think about the way you handled that. And if you had to do it over again, you would handle it differently.

I would wish I had the power to, like, be more energized to handle it properly instead of collapsing, for sure.

And yeah, maybe to Jesse's point, I don't— I can't tell if you're doing it. A lot of people do this like, oh, I wish it had been different. And interestingly, in some way, the, like, the regret, or sometimes it's guilt, it's almost like we slap ourselves on the wrist and then let ourselves off the hook instead of actually taking the learning so that we can do it differently next time. So that's where I would just challenge you, Andrew. It's like, okay, well, what do you get to learn from that experience such that like now and going forward, you don't drain yourself and burn yourself out and all the— because it sounds like there's a bunch of downstream consequences from that.

I don't know. I, I thought that I was, I was able to get past the burnout. I thought I'd outsmarted it. I remember, like, I talked to Tim Ferriss back when he was just getting going, and I said— and we talked about how working out is helpful for business because it gives you something else to do. And I felt like such a genius because I'd conquered burnout because now I was in a relationship. I was married instead of being like, like some people that— some guys that we know who said— who say, I'm not going to do anything relationship-wise until I make it. So I was in a relationship, I was running and exercising, getting all the, the positive energy that comes from that, and I thought, okay, that's it, I'm covered, I have lots of aspects of my life and I have rest. And I still, still led myself to burnout. So I don't think I actually learned as much as I thought I did.

Well, no time like the present. Are you willing to take responsibility for how you burn yourself out?

Here comes the guy with the willing all the time. Are you— why do you ask are you willing questions? Like, I never have a conversation with anyone other than Jesse or Dave who say, are you willing before?

But I think— can I try, Dave, as junior coach?

Sure.

Um, sure. I think that it's really, really important in coaching or like in any of this work that the person is actually willing to do the thing. Because if you're not willing, like you could say, Andrew, are you, would you, you know, could you learn from this? And you'd say, yeah, I could, I could learn from this. And, and that's not the same thing as are you willing to learn from it? And I think the other thing is giving the person, like I, I, one thing I've noticed from what I'll call coach speak, which I now do a lot of is is like, hey, you should, you should learn from this, Andrew. Like, that's very different than are you willing to learn from this? Or I was arguing with my wife the other day and I like, oh, I invited her to think about something. I'm like, hey, I would invite you to consider this, my perspective in this way. And she said worst invitation ever. So it didn't go that well, but I invited her as opposed to saying you should think about my perspective, think about my, or think about my perspective, or why don't you think about my perspective? I was like, oh, I invite you to look at this and I might have been doing that anyway with fancy words, but in any case, I feel like the words of letting the other person choose versus kind of pushing them onto it is the reason.

Yeah. Yes. And I'd add to that, you know, the methodology of conscious leadership, which really informs a lot of what— how I think and what I do these days. It's, you know, the core framework is that when you're above the line, you see yourself as the creator of your experience. So if you think of the word willing with a hyphen in it, like, I mean, I'm asking you if you're willing, right? Like, if you're like, well, I will— it's now moment creating the experience of. So it's not like a lot of people use the word willing, like, oh yes, yeah, I'd be willing to lose 10 pounds. Like, someday in the future. That's not how I mean it. I mean, like, in— right, literally right now, are you willing to use your human will to have this experience, right? To take responsibility, to get curious. How do I create burnout? And, you know, that one's a double whammy because I said, are you willing to take responsibility? So it's like, are you willing to see how you're the creator of this particular experience.

I'm totally willing to see it, and I, I accept it fully, and I'm in some ways resigned to it. Like, all right, here it goes. I'm gonna go full on deep, and then I'm going to burn out, and then the burnout will lead me somewhere interesting. Like, maybe that's when I finally accept Miami as my future and sit on the beach.

You say accept Miami?

I don't know, Miami does not seem appealing to me. So I thought, all right, maybe this is what happens. Guys burn out, they end up with some money over there, they unbutton another button. Imagine that.

Yeah, the thought I had when you just said that, you know, there's this whole video with like an iceberg and, you know, it's like you've probably heard this metaphor before, right? Like what's conscious is above the water and what's unconscious is below the water. And the idea is our life is essentially a reflection of our unconscious commitments. So one way I interpret what you just said, Andrew, is maybe I'm just unconsciously committed to burning out. And so it is, right? And because maybe you're curious what happens after, or you want to have that experience. So it's worth just looking at like, huh, what are you getting from playing this game of like push, push, push, burnout?

Maybe this goes back to what Jesse was saying, that I have these stories about the past and things that I wish I'd done. And since this is how it turned out, it's affecting how I'm Acting today, I try to resist burnout, and then as a result, I'm burnt. I got burnt out anyway. And so why did I even bother trying? Or why should I bother trying now?

Hmm. And what maybe one—

that's the—

Andrew, one fun way to, to do this, or one maybe in, in the, in the context of a podcast, again, there's another good Dave story I tell anyone who talks to me about this. I say, I asked Dave once, and you know me, I'm, I have my own ambitions and I like to go hard too. You know that about me. And so of course I asked Dave Kashen the ultimate go-hard question, which is, okay, if you only had 30 minutes to change someone's life the most you could possibly change it, what would you do? And he had an answer and his answer was very specific. It was, I'm like, you have 30 minutes, you got to change someone's life as much. He goes, every person has 1 to 3 core beliefs. Now belief is really just a fancy way of saying deeply held story. It's not a fact. Right? A belief, like believing in sickness.

What's an example of a belief that's deeply held?

Well, I'll get there, right? And I would drill down to try to figure out what one of those were, and then I would try to get them to see the opposite were true. Just as true. Not to convince them that it is, that they should take that position, but just so then that it's a neutral, like it's not a fact. So one of mine, Andrew, as we did this actually once, it took us longer than 30 minutes, but was that like, on some level, money equals love. And there was like a bunch of pre-stories. Money equals security. Money equals success. Money. But it was ultimately like, the more money I make, the more I will get love. And we could think about and talk about where that comes from. It's not all that important. Somewhat obvious, right? But, but then Dave like sat with me and he goes, okay, you could lose all your money and you'd have just as much love in your life or just as much security in life. And I'm like, no way. Like I could feel my body like going like this in that conversation. And so he's like, okay, well, I'm not gonna let you off the hook. So we negotiated to like incrementally more money would not make me more loved or more safe. And that I could get on board with. And honestly, that was pretty life-changing for me because up until then, I, the, the core thing was like, if I'm not a billionaire, I won't be worthwhile. Like I won't, I will have not made the most of my potential. All these other things that was like really a, it was really showing up everywhere in my life and diff— and not necessarily in what I, well, in what I did and how I thought in the suffering I was creating for myself. But I thought one interesting thing we could do for you, Andrew, is just like, in your past, what are the 2 or 3 things that have the biggest charge? We don't have to go to the core beliefs on the, in the podcast, but in your, in your career history, what are 2 or 3, or even one thing where you're like, man, I still have a lot of charge around this. I'm still mad about this thing that happened. Or I don't know, Dave, I'm, I'm making this up, but let's, let's do it. Something that I'm mad about that it happened, or like something at Mixergy or something at your billion dollar, you know, Grab.com, where you're still like, always that it didn't go bigger. Always that it didn't go go bigger.

And it's the same thing about now. Like, everything is, why isn't it bigger? Why isn't it more? Not in my personal life. Like, I don't, I don't bring that to my kids. I don't bring that to my relationship with Olivia. But for sure, for anything work— I don't bring it to running even. But for, for anything that's work-related, it's always, why didn't it go bigger? Or, why am I not making this bigger? Why isn't it happening now? So, and that's not a curious why, that's a, that's a condemning why.

Like, it should be bigger. It'd be better if it were bigger. Are you willing to let go of being right that bigger is better?

I'm honestly— every time you say that, I try to be honest with you because I know my impulse is to, like, make you happy and say yes and be a good person. No, I'm not willing to let that go. Bigger has got to be better.

Hmm. And great. So what are you scared might happen if you let go of that belief?

Probably that I accept some kind of frou-frou reality that people are setting up for themselves as a way of accepting a life where they're not trying enough or not achieving enough. And now if I get into that life, then what else is going to happen?

So you can maybe start to see how self-referential it is. It's like, I believe bigger is better. And I'm scared that if I let go of that belief, then my life won't be as big.

I don't like your use of the word scared. Every time you say I'm scared, I want to like, I want to punch you to show you that I'm strong and that I'm not scared.

Mm. Expert.

Hey, not physically punch you, but I want to like show you that I'm not as scared as you are.

Oh, I'm glad we're doing this remotely for my safety.

There's no fear. I'm no Mike Tyson. The last person that I punched was Daniel Puterman in elementary school, and that didn't go so well.

Hope he's okay.

Uh, yeah.

What do you got against fear?

I don't know, I'm afraid of a lot of things, honestly. Um, I, I don't really have— it just doesn't make me look good, so I want to prove that I, that, that I'm not that.

It's funny, I, I use the example— yeah, when I was talking about partial truths, I use the example of I'm weak.

Uh-huh.

And if It feels a little bit like what's coming up for you here is this— there's this like partial truth that's true for all humans, but I hear there's like resistance in you to being weak or being seen as weak.

I think so, for sure.

And I think if you could just own— and the, the trick again is like the— it's like these polarities, like both are true. You're weak and you're strong. But when we want to like choose or make one part of the polarity better than the other, we, we get stuck because we end up creating the thing we try to avoid.

I'm not sure what you mean, but I have to admit that partially I'm a little distracted by Jesse's hoodie. Jesse, you've been dressing especially well lately. What's going on? I don't know.

I'd like gotten into e-commerce.

Did you just hire somebody to dress you?

No.

Are you now?

I bought, I actually bought this on, uh, on what's that new Chinese site that was all over on TikTok?

No way.

Really? That, uh, Xi'an. Really?

I just, it was like $3.

That and the red shirt are very high quality.

Wow. Have you guys seen the SNL skit about Temu?

No.

No.

Oh, it's really funny. It's like. No prisoner labor. No child slavery.

Aw.

That's funny.

You know what? I feel really bad about that now. I do kind of want to go and see the site, but now you've ruined it for me, 'cause I'd like to look like that. Imagine I come home with new hoodies, shirts. He had this red shirt on that was buttoned down, like new colors. Imagine I come home and Olivia just wants to tear my shirt off. Andrew, you're looking good. You're putting effort in the relationship. It's not the same shirt in the back of your office closet.

I'm really curious why Andrew has totally redirected the conversation.

How interesting how we've deflected the conversation from focusing on Andrew and your potential resistance to Dave.

I'll tell you, because I'm playing to the audience a little bit. I said, you know what? I've kind of lost Jesse's interest here for a little bit. Let's lighten up things because he's representing the audience for us. We'll talk about this as a sidetrack, and then we'll come back to it. No, I'm not.

I'm quietly— I'm managing the audience. Expectations. I'm quietly listening, as is the audience.

All right, I'm ready to go back in there.

Okay.

What if it was okay to be weak?

You know what, truthfully, it is okay to be weak. It's like, it's— I don't want you to perceive me as weak. I don't want to— I don't know, I don't know why. Some— I'm genuinely— I'm okay with you thinking of me as weak. I mean, we had an interesting conversation at Jesse's, uh, 40th birthday party where I got vulnerable with you. And I don't know, maybe it's just the resistance to— I don't know. I'm not sure.

I find it helpful to recognize that all humans have all the same parts, right? We tend to think of ourselves as these unique snowflakes, and in some ways we are. And I— that's how I think about it. We all have all this. So, you know, anything that you recognize in yourself you could find in me. Anything that you recognize in me, you could find in yourself. This is why I love, like, just as an aside, the tool of projection. Like, if I get pissed off by something that someone does nowadays, I, I get excited because I'm like, oh, this is showing me a part of myself that I haven't loved. I get that my primary commitment is to unconditional love for myself and everyone else. So You know, it's the fact that you don't want to be perceived as weak says something about your relationship with this weak part that we all have.

And I think here's what came up when you said unconditional love. I go, oh boy, this guy is just— it's not going to push himself enough. And then I go, dude, all right, I know I'm going to say it out loud, so I should justify and explain why. And then I thought, okay, you have unconditional love, everything's good. Then I think about my kids. Why, why would I put any effort into raising them, like, harder? But like working with them more to read more, to study better, to all that stuff. What do I need that I have unconditionally?

Is that more important than loving your children unconditionally?

No, I can love them unconditionally. I can't love myself unconditionally. For me, there's gotta be conditions because that's the motivation. And I hear you. I almost can hear Jesse responding to this 'cause he had gone through this. And I intellectualize it away when I think about it 'cause of what Jesse, 'cause of Jesse's experiences with you and getting rid of that. That jockey on his back that needs to whip him because otherwise the horse won't go.

I don't know. Well, I think there's two things coming up for me. The one just immediately what you just said, Andrew, that I'm also learning, and Dave knows this, is I haven't gotten rid of that jockey. I've just paid less attention to it. And one of the parts of this work that's really important is these things don't ever go away fully, quote unquote. But I think you're willing— you're as the creator of your experience, you're like, oh, I'm just not going to listen to that guy as much. Like, I don't need to. It's not it does, it's not as, uh, it just doesn't capture the—

So what do you replace them with, Jesse? So then what's the thing that makes you get up and do the thing you need to do if not for the job?

Well, I, I also, there's something, there's something coming back on full circle of, of the whole big, are you willing to see bigger isn't better? And I mean, even intellectually for like, like that there's small businesses or like there's, I don't know, there's a hedge fund with 5 employees that makes a billion dollars or whatever, or like, you know what? I mean, like, there are versions of bigger is not better necessarily in the world, right?

I get it. But no, I mean bigger in revenue, bigger in profit.

Yeah. And just you're kind of slipping in there still some like, oh, higher leverage.

Right, right, right.

Like I would go all the way to like, Andrew, you are a couch potato. You're eating Doritos, watching Netflix, and that's totally just as valid an experience to have as your this wildly successful business person. And then you might choose. And, you know, this— it's subtle. I get it. Like preference versus righteousness. If we could just make that distinction. So you get this righteous idea of bigger is better. And that, that creates rigidity. It creates a feeling of like if the thing you're doing isn't First of all, bigger is better. I mean, one of the issues is it's a, it's a ever, you know, it's a treadmill that's always speeding up, right? It's just like more is better. Well, then when do you have enough? Right? When is it big enough? Never.

Right.

If the core belief is bigger is better. Oh, yeah. And by the way, we see this, right? There's lots of billionaires out there like, God, but my buddy Larry, he has $100 billion, right? Elon has $320 billion. What's my measly $1 billion? Right? That's the trap of these kind of ideas that like more is better, bigger is better. And then there's like a righteousness that versus it's all okay. And what do you want to do with this wild and precious life? It's like, oh, I want to go create this kind of impact or create this kind of business. There's nothing wrong with wanting to build a big business or even visualizing a big business or putting attention on the future you want. It's just, are you doing it from this place of there's something wrong with the way it is now, in which case you're not present, right? And bigger is better inherently implies it's not big enough yet.

Or buy this, Jesse.

I didn't for a long time. And I think the hardest part about it, Andrew, and for people listening, is it almost feels like Dave is asking you to give up your dreams.

Hmm.

Oh, give up my dream of being— that's how I remember feeling actually. Well, the simple way to bottom line this is what, what feels more inspiring to you, to you in your soul? It should be bigger. Bootstrap Giants should be 10 times the size that it is, Andrew. Or how amazing would it be if Bootstrap Giants was bigger?

I think maybe I need to do more work mentally with the second one and I could get there. Like, but The "it should" just clicks something in me. It's like, "You should. I know what to do with this. Go." The "how amazing would it be," I have to really work to pause and think what would be amazing, to make up that story, that visualization in my head, and then to go, "Okay, I do want that enough that I would invest." Fundamentally, what we're talking about is want versus need.

When you need something, like, the energy you bring and the feeling and the suffering is one of— it's like a really Negative. It's a dirty fuel. Yeah. It's like a dirty fuel that we talked about last time. Whereas like, man, I would really, I want this. I'm excited about this, but I don't need it. Right. And I want it. It'd be cool to have it and I don't need it. And I think that I remember when I was doing this with Dave, it definitely felt like he was asking me to give up my dreams that if I agreed to him this, that I would be giving up my dreams. Right. And, and I'd have to go sit on the couch and I like, that was what was going to have to happen if I did it. And then I did it and there was just a different energy that took over. Not always, by the way. It's like sometimes the other energy shows up all the time and it's just learning which one to choose in any given moment.

And there's a, there's a leap. I just wanna acknowledge almost every transformational experience seems to have this same structure where it's, there's this familiar way of being. And I, like you said, Andrew, I know that one. I know what to do. I know it works. And then there's this new way of being, and there's this chasm between the two because I don't know. That's the unknown, right? And from my experience, every time I or a client leap into the unknown, it expands what's possible. Excuse me. It expands what's possible versus the familiar. You know, like if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.

Yeah.

So, and it's, you know, sorry to use this word again, but for most people it's scary to take a leap into the unknown. So we generally would rather keep doing it the way we've been doing it, even though it's, you know, has a lot of toxic side effects, burnout, et cetera. But at least I know it quote unquote works, you know, at least to the degree that it does.

Well, and in the world, my personal example, Andrew, just to hit it home, like Ampush grew a lot for the first 5 or 6 years using the, it should. The Dirty Fuel. Then I started doing stuff with Dave and the business kind of went flat for a little while. And there were moments in during that time where I was like, what the hell is happening? And I was in neutral because I was like, I was like, well, I had this old way, but there's this new way. I don't really understand this new way. And eventually I stepped down as CEO and I started the GatewayX stuff, which has probably created more value in 2 or 3 years than anything I had done prior to that, including the 10 years prior to that. And it's done it in such a way where I'm like, I can do this forever. Like I could genuinely, and in Ambush I was always looking for the exits because it was always such a painful experience. To your burnout example, I was always like, who could we sell today? I don't want to buy the company because that would be awesome to be done with the company right now and say that I was. And so just as my own case study for myself is it did take me time to make that switch and even a big structural shift in the way I was working to eventually get to the place where I was like, okay, I'm going to be in my zones of genius. I'm going to orient this way. And now it's, I do, and now my issue with Dave when I talk in my sessions is Am I allowed to have it be this good? This is too, too good. I'm making money. I'm having fun. I work with great people like this. No, I don't think this is allowed. This doesn't feel allowed is oftentimes what we talk about. And he's like, yeah, it's allowed. I'm like, no, it doesn't feel like it's allowed. Let's— I'm mindful of time. And Andrew, you wanted to talk about something in our relationship. So let's—

I did, but I don't think we could do it in 10 minutes. I'll cue it up.

I—

and then maybe we can use this for future conversations. I think that we're not having fun together. And I— the story— listen to me, Dave, watch this, using language. The story that I'm making up in my head is that my approach to business is driving you crazy, Jesse, and that we're not moving fast enough and doing enough of different things for you. And the reality that I'm feeling in my life is it is too much, too many different things and too much chaos. And I, I like to keep like the, like the Apple Store style elegance. And suddenly I found myself in, I don't know, Banana Republic or what's another store? What's, what's the—

Best Buy.

Yeah. Like a Best Buy. Right. And every one of the deals is great, but I need the tranquility. Is, is any part of this resonating with you?

Well, what I hear you saying is that you're making up a story that I, um, I'm not having fun working with you and I want us to be going faster. And like what you said, something like, I'm not, something more than I'm not enjoying it. There's more strong than that.

Um, and also it's driving me crazy enough is what you said. Things. Yeah. Driving crazy.

And we're not doing enough things. And, and what I hear you saying is that when you build a business, you like it to be You know, one, one great product at a time, Steve Jobs style, and look like the Apple Store, not like all these random little hodgepodge of things. Mm-hmm. Is that right?

Yeah, that's it.

Is there more?

No, I, I really like that you've summarized it that way cuz when you did that in our sales accelerator, you said, look, when, when you've got a question from a customer or frustration, here's sum it up. And at the time I go, this would sound so phony. And then I, I talk to you a few days later about an issue we had and you summarize it just like this. I go, I do feel very heard. I do like that you just said that. Yeah, I feel like he actually cares about me.

Pre-Dave, Jesse would have been like, you're a fucking idiot, shut up, you're wrong.

You could go further, Jesse, if you want to guess what he might be feeling and wanting.

Yeah, I, I, I, I I'm feeling, I'm guessing you're feeling a little bit scared and a little frustrated with some dynamic of this, of BG so far. And then what you really want is to, to know and feel like you're having success.

Yeah. And to have that rhythm that we had before where we're kind of yes anding each other, but in a, in a productive way for both of us.

Yeah. I feel like you want the chemistry and the harmony maybe that we had prior to being day-to-day business partners. Is that right?

Yeah.

And the part of— what's it we do? The one for fun, Dave. The part of me I see in you. I see the one in me who wants to— who finds reasons to make myself feel upset about it and make busy— use it as a way to charge myself. It's not good enough. It has to be better. Jesse's not happy. I have to make this better.

Cool. Jesse is— is his— one of his stories was about you and what you were experiencing. Is it true? Is he driving you crazy?

No. Um, you're not driving me crazy at all. I don't feel driven crazy at all in that way. I think, uh, I have not enjoyed collaborating on Zoom in the way we've collaborated, like being remote. I've really not enjoyed that. That's probably the energy you feel that feels driving crazy. Like, I don't like that to do our work, I have to get on a Zoom call with you, which means it has to be more scheduled, which also means like I'm staring at a screen, I'm talking to myself. And especially with the other CEOs are in St. Louis. So then it's like they jump in my office. I give someone a hug. I'm like, what's up? And it's just a very different feeling. And so that's something I've noticed about our collaboration. Um, and then I think at times I have felt scared that your tendency to be sort of what I'll call single-tracked or manic, I'll use that word lovingly, right? Like you just get very focused on something and you can't really see anything else is gonna like, it's gonna hurt our ability to build the business that we both want to build, which is like a, you know, and there's, I think certain things like that I've introduced you to around how to like have more organization around the business, have departments and teams and structures. And I think those things I've introduced have been somewhat because I'm just trying to help you, but also because I'm like, oh wait, I don't think he does this stuff naturally and I want to make sure I'm leveling him up to this level. But it comes sometimes when I'm like, ooh, if we don't do this, we're just going to keep running in circles around the business. It won't grow the way we want it to, similar to what we tell the people we sell it to. But I also don't feel like we're not doing enough. I would say that I don't feel like we are intentional enough, but it's not that I don't think we're doing enough. I don't think we're being organized or planning. And these are all things, these aren't new things I've shared with you. Of like, let's get, let's get together, let's make a plan, let's have the pieces of it, then let's go do it and let's work against that. And then the other last thing I'll say is I'm also like, I've started lots of companies, so I'm also like, yeah, we're kind of right where we're supposed to be. Like the first version of all these things is the first crank is hard and takes a long time. And that's part of starting a business.

Andrew, what's coming up for you as you hear Jesse say that, all of that?

That it's good to hear that. It's not what I expected, and it's good to talk about it. That's it. It hasn't resolved anything, but it's given me more clarity, and that's, that's on the path towards—

would, would you both be willing to find a win-for-all solution?

For sure.

Yes.

So you each make the other one winning as important as you winning.

Yeah. Yeah. What, Andrew, what would winning look like for you?

Um, a collaborative experience where the best of us keeps coming through. Like where I like that you've noticed these things about me. I've noticed it about myself too, that I do end up with this one-itis where I'm focused on this one thing so much that I miss the other stuff. And I do notice the lack of organization sometimes leading to circular, like, productivity where you're just constantly on the hamster wheel because there's not a clear, organized path forward. And so you just keep doing the thing.

Yeah. So it sounds like, it sounds like getting back to some form of like more, I'll call it open-ended collaboration or creative collaboration that we were doing earlier.

And more conversations like this, like we had the last, oh, the last few minutes.

Yeah.

Where we are talking about the thing, the process, not, and the, the approach.

Yeah. One, one thought coming to my mind, Andrew, is can we make sure to keep, we have a one-on-one and one, one thing Dave and I have talked about tonight is keeping sacred space. Like, can we keep 20 minutes or 30 minutes of that call sacred to have this kind of conversation versus, oh, we have some other thing we need to work on. There's something due. We need to write something. We need to get something done.

I like that. The sacred space also feels good for my approach that I, I've got the box with the thing that's gonna happen in it. All right. This was a good session. A big part of me doesn't care if anyone listens, but then another part of me is not gonna look at that lower left of the YouTube channel. And, uh, because that's where I'll get my own, uh, report card back. But I like this section.

Obviously a bigger number is better, right?

So Brandon, who's gonna be putting a thumbnail on, please not a thumbnail of the three of us like this. Make something a little shocking. Look at the ones that they do for My First Million. Let's be for My First Million feelings or My First Million heart. Let's be that the heart version of that. They're not lying with their thumbnails, but they're definitely exaggerating.

Well, I have a question. If we want bigger to be better, we haven't even shared this on my social or in the newsletter, Andrew.

I know, because I'm overwhelmed. I was thinking that this morning. All right.

Apple Store, Jesse. Minimal, simple.

No, he's right that that should get done.

Andrew, I do want to point out there's a way you're saying— what I think I hear you saying is less is more.

I do think less is more.

Oh, interesting. Got it.

He turned around.

All right.

All right, guys.

Thank you.

That is true. All right, gentlemen, thank you. Thanks everyone.

Bye. See ya.

Till next time.