What Happens When You Move Beyond the Ego

Welcome everyone to Heart of Entrepreneurship, where Dave Kashen, an amazing coach, and Jesse, an entrepreneur, talk about building businesses from heart, uh, as opposed to from fear or lack. How can you be really ambitious and also very loving at the same time? That's what we explore through a whole variety of different topics. So, uh, what's up, Dave?

What's up, Jesse?

I've got a— I think I've got a good topic today. I had a different one in mind this morning, but I wanted— this morning I want to talk about sadness, which we can save for a future time. But today I want to talk about ego. It's— I feel like it's funny what it's known broadly in the world when people say ego. I feel like is a misnomer. Or if you'd asked me 5, 7 years ago what ego was, I would have said, you know, people go, oh my God, somebody's got such a big ego.

Yeah, he's arrogant.

Arrogant. Yeah. Cocky. And even to the point where I feel like at some point my wife, she was like, I don't have an ego. Like, are people who are like, you know, less maybe self-confident with, oh, I'm not— I don't have an ego at all. And as I've gone down—

or that person's really low ego, as if to mean they're humble and they're—

yeah, yeah. Like Um, and as I've done, you know, my spiritual work and personal growth, I've obviously realized it means something very different. So, um, it also happens to be, just for fun fact, it's a very central part of the concept of ego, is very central in Sikhism and most Eastern faiths, but Sikhism in particular. Um, and we can talk more about that. You can ask me questions.

Certainly Buddhism as well.

Yeah, yeah. So what is ego?

The clearest definition for me of ego is this sense of self, like this sense of a separate self. Um, could also think of it as like your identity. Like the thought, the, the thought about who you are is the ego.

Um, so I say I am Jesse Pujji.

Yeah, whatever you, whatever you think that means is your ego. And, um, like it's, it's, you know, I, I've, I'm fond of saying that, like, it's interesting to recognize that like the thought about who you are is itself just a thought.

Mm-hmm.

So it's, you know, another way to say the mental, the mental construct of self, right? It's like, right, who, whoever you would— I like it. I am, I am Jesse Pujji. I am Dave Kashen. Whatever would come after I am is probably who you think you are. Oh, I'm a, a husband. I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a this. It's like all the ways we define ourselves. Um, another term I've heard used is just like a limited perspective.

Hmm.

So if there's like a, an unlimited perspective about who we are, um, that's closer to essential self being, you know, some would say God or God nature.

Let's come back to that. So why, I guess maybe just a dumb question, why is it commonly used to mean, to mean you're arrogant or confident? And how does that, how has that gotten confused in the, in the world?

Well, I think one of the traps of identifying as this conceptual self is there's a temptation to aggrandize that, right? So the, you know, what you'd hear an arrogant person say is like, I'm amazing, I'm the greatest, I'm the best, because they want to aggrandize this concept of self. So I think they do go hand in hand. I also think inherently, you know, the challenge I think of being human and having an ego or being identified as this limited self is there's an inherent sense of like something's incomplete about it. So I think it's interesting, like I think at some level like we sense there's something missing because we are identified as like a limited version of who we really are, right? Um, and so, you know, there's this, um, concept called the Theory of Holes from the Diamond Approach, which is like this or a pseudo-spiritual, um, or I don't know, pseudo, but pseudo-religious or spiritual organization. Um, I haven't, I haven't done it, but I've read some of the, um, their writings and the theory of holes is that we're, we're sort of disconnected from our essential self in certain ways. And that disconnection feels like a hole, like a void. And we don't tend to recognize— is a long way to answer your question. We don't tend to recognize that that's what's happening. So we think that there's something missing.

Um, what, but what's wrong, I guess, world, before we get to the, this, the more deep stuff.

Yes. Uh, well, I, but I think this is partially why people show up as arrogant is cuz I was trying to answer that question. They feel like there's something, it's basically like insecurity and arrogance are two sides of the same coin. They feel like there's something fundamentally wrong or missing. And so to cover over that, they show up as arrogant. And I think that's why sometimes the word ego, they put it together.

I like that.

Yeah.

Yeah. It kind of reminds me of like when, when you tell someone like to gain perspective or they're, they're losing perspective, it's like, oh my God, if this next meeting I take goes badly, my life is over. And that's like an extreme version of identifying.

Yeah. Talk about limited perspective, right? Like that tunnel vision. Yeah. If this, this is all there is, is this one meeting.

If I can't accomplish this goal. That's— it's like— but I guess a really basic, dumb question is like, all right, I'm Jesse, I'm an entrepreneur, I have 3 kids, my wife— I'm married, my, you know, my wife's Deepika. Um, what's wrong with that? Why is that— why is ego bad? Like, it— I feel like ego gets a bad rap. Like, it's, it's like, oh yeah, don't be in your— but by the way, not in the regular world where people, you know, equate it with Donald Trump, but also in the like spiritual realm, people like, oh, Ego, ego, ego. I don't, but what's right?

There's a whole book called Ego Is the Enemy.

Yeah. Why can't I identify as, as, yeah.

So I don't, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think it's important to recognize, like most, if not all human beings, like that is sort of a feature of being human is that We have this mind that generates thoughts and concepts, and one of the thoughts or concepts it generates is a concept of self, a self-concept. Oh, I'm this. I think the trap is when we get identified as it. I guess a couple of things happen. Maybe the most important is most human beings that I've coached and known and saw and, and read about— so I'll extrapolate this to like maybe it's a universal human phenomenon— generally have this feeling like there's something wrong, there's something wrong, there's something missing, there's somewhere to get to, there's, there's something, um, they need to do. I'll be happy when, right? So I think that's like inherent to this identification with this, like, concept of a self is a disconnection from our essential self. And with that is this sense that, like, there's something wrong. And, um, I think it's also like an identification with the mind. And I might mix concepts here, so you can, you can press me if this doesn't make sense, but the mind is like the storyteller Right, like good stories by definition— well, I'll just add, like, what makes for a good story?

It's like you have stakes, it's got— it's like drama, it's entertaining, it's— yeah.

And what creates the drama?

Conflict.

Conflict, problems. Yeah, right. So like, if I was thinking about this morning, this like almost like I was envisioning my head like a short story of this storyteller throughout time. And like, you know, 1,000 years ago, there was so much stories to tell because there was lions and tigers and dragons and, you know, all these real dangers. And now, like, all that stuff's gone, but the storyteller is bored. So they're just— they keep weaving these stories of problems and conflicts. So part of the issue of that is just like, we're just disconnected from reality in that if we identify as, you know, the ego mind like the mind lives in the past and the future and in stories that are not true. Like, they're not— it's not like what actually is occurring now. So we— one way we could connect this issue of identifying with the ego is like there's this sense of sort of permanence, like, oh, this is who I am. And in that, like, it has us focus a lot on like the past and the future instead of like the moment we're actually in. And as well as like concepts and imagine, you know, like imagined memories and imagined projected futures rather than living in our actual reality. So I think that's one of the issues. It sort of just disconnects us from reality. Um, and most people's realities are, are I think like 10 times better than their emotional experience.

Right, right. It kind of reminds me like if somebody says like, oh, I'm in, I'm really in my head. Yeah, that's like the ego is—

I'm identified as my ego mind, we could say, right? Um, so what's the connection? I'm just thinking in real time about like the identity, like you said, oh, okay, I'm Jesse, I have this one, you know, I guess all of that is a thought. And so if you're identified as a thought, you take your thoughts really seriously and you listen to your thoughts and you kind of get trapped in like believing the stories that your mind makes up. So I think that's one of the issues.

Well, let's pause there real quick. So, so that there's this thought machine and the story machine that we just talked about that does these things. But isn't that who I am?

Mm-hmm.

I mean, if so, thoughts are like those. Those are my thoughts. That's me. What do you mean? What's— I don't get it.

Um, it's funny, I'm laughing cuz my wife and I have very, have like different ways that we relate to this. So I'll share hers and mine, but, um, the cha— here's what I'd say. The cha— well, it certainly occurs that way because it feels like, well, I'm the only one that can hear them. They sound a lot like me, right? Like they're about me and my life. Often in my, you know, my voice, like when I hear myself talk and when I hear the mind, like they sound very similar. So it sure feels and like seems like it's me and my thoughts. Um, the challenge I find of believing that is if I think that's me, then I tend to believe the thoughts or even pay attention to them. And if you if you spend any amount of time really just listening to, witnessing, observing, like what the mind tends to say. One, like it's massive negativity bias, right? Like 80, 90% of the things are negative, which is like, that's, that's not most people's experience. We don't actually have many more negative things happening than positive things. Um, B, they're mostly about us. Like it's very self-referential, right? So like we're in a world of 8 billion other humans, but most of our thoughts are just about us. So there's patterns, I guess, that are worth noting. And from my experience, if you, if you think that's you and you spend your day like listening to and engaged in the thoughts, um, you'll have a really limited, negative, self-referential life. Like you'll think life is really bad and you're really bad because most of the thoughts are like self-protective, sort of fear-based thoughts that are like, you know, I mean, just notice at least most people's minds and mine most of the time are not like, you're so amazing, right? God, life is so wonderful, right?

That's right.

Like, it's like, and that's by design, right?

Isn't that by biological design to help us survive and stay alive?

I think so. I, I, I think A, yes, it's part of our survival patterning. B, I just don't think we've evolved very much in 1,000 years. And so we're wired for a world of constant physical survival threats and we don't live in that world. And so that's one simple way to think about it is like our mind is calibrated for, you know, the, I don't know, one-thousandth, you know, like 1,000 years ago, 10 centuries ago, and we live in 2025, you know? And so, um, I think that's just a practical challenge of, uh, identifying as your mind. You think you live in this super dangerous world when in fact, like most people, again, you know, there's most of our listeners at least, you know, live in a world where the likelihood of, of them not having enough food, clothing, and shelter in their lifetime is round to zero, right? So what are we so scared about and anxious about all the time, right?

Well, and even like, I guess as society has developed, like, this is not my expertise, but the, like, the concept of even more formal identities, individual homes, names, money, like, those have all been evolved over time in some sense. Or because it used to be like part of a tribe and you're like, oh, you're one of, you know, you really didn't have an identity. That was—

there was a we.

Yeah, there was always a we. And even I think different countries have a different Like Japan has a very different view of that than the US, for example, or like a collective.

Yeah, that's really interesting. The— I do think this sense of being separate from is part of the core wound of like being human. Um, especially, you know, most spiritual traditions at some level understand that there's a sense of oneness that lives beyond that that sort of separate perspective. So like, to your point, in cultures that are more collective, they're probably happier. You know, in fact, I think a lot of those blue zone and like studies of happiness, they all show like they're more collective, they're more social. So there is something about like the more individual we feel, the more separate we feel, the more we suffer, the more sense of interconnected and oneness we feel, the more we, you know, the happier we are. So that's interesting to think about culturally and certainly in the US. It's a very like rugged individualist culture. So there is maybe an even stronger sense of like, I am this separate, you know, self. Um, there was this great Steve Jobs letter that he wrote at one point that was like, I didn't make the, you know, I didn't make the clothes I wear. I didn't make the, you know, I didn't grow the food, I didn't say the medicines I take.

Yeah. I didn't invent the language that I speak.

Uh, so like, and, and even just as you say it, as we say it, like I notice I can feel a little bit of expansion, a little sense of like, oh yeah, we are interconnected. And there, there's, that's an uplifting feeling. I notice. Right. And when we sit at a dinner table with a bunch of people we love, you know, like we're like, we're more one, we're more collective, we're more social than, um, at least we're wired for that. Like, I think that's in some way closer to true than, oh, we're all just these individuals.

Right. Um, but most people walk around with their egos. They have thoughts coming out of their brain that they believe that those thoughts are them, because like you said, they sound like them. And they— and some people even say like, well, I'm more of a positive person, I'm more of a negative person, I'm more of a pessimist, I'm an optimist, I'm a— like, there's this whole per— I'm my, my personality and my identity.

And, and yeah, so let, let's look at those two levels. So yeah. So if you, if you think you're the storyteller, you get trapped in the stories, right? That's the trap, right? Is like, if I think that's me and, you know, often for new clients, I'll just have them look at, like, just examine the experience of hearing a voice in your head talking.

Mm-hmm.

If you just spend two, you know, a second or a minute or examining that, it becomes clear that in order to have an experience of hearing a voice in your head talking, there must be something listening, right? Right.

And, you know, my version of it is more extreme, as per me, which is like, have you ever had the thought that you wanted to like kill someone or punch someone in the face? And everyone's like, yes. And I'm like, did you do it? They're like, no. And I'm like, well, but if you're your thoughts, then you would have done that thing, right? If that thing told you, I want to punch that guy, like, so there must be somebody else making the call ultimately, right?

Yeah, I love that. Also try to turn it off, right? Like, okay, if that's you, like, stop thinking.

Yeah.

Right. Most people after a second, 5 seconds, 10 seconds, their mind just keeps— so, you know, I often think of it just like the heart pumps blood and the mind pumps thoughts. It's just like, it's just what it does, right? Um, it's not bad. It's not wrong. It's not a problem. It's just, you know, if you think you're the storyteller, you get trapped in the stories. You believe the thoughts are true, and that's what creates, I think, a huge amount of suffering in the world.

Yeah. Let's talk about the suffering because I was just going to ask you, why should I care about any of this? Like, I've listened to this. You've just talked about ego. My brain has thoughts. Fine. Like, I think I am my thoughts, or I don't know if I'm my thoughts. I don't really care. Why do I care about this at all? Why does it matter, especially as a founder?

Well, again, if you come back to like, The mind is a storyteller and good stories have drama and problems. Your mind is constantly inventing problems and conflicts. So, you know, like a really simple way to think about the experience of life is, um, I may have shared this before, like there's life on the one hand, and then there's your mind's idea of how life should be on the other hand. And those things rarely match, right? Beautiful sunset, the day your kids are born. Uh, maybe you just sold your company for a billion dollars or went public. Like, and by the way, those are the experiences that people say like, oh my God, I felt tremendous peace and joy for a minute. Yeah. Because in that one minute, life and your mind's idea of how life should be finally matched.. But, you know, if you want to have more than 3 minutes of joy in your life, like instead of constantly trying to get life to match your ego, you know, your ego idea of how life should be. And by the way, your ego's idea of who you are and how you should be, right? That's a fool's errand like that. That's what causes suffering. It's that disconnect between how you are, how life is, and how your mind believes you should be and it should be. And so if instead you choose life, you accept life as it is and ignore your mind's idea of how life should be, because that's what creates the problem. When we say like, right, the mind is a storyteller, it's inventing conflict and problems. It's always conflict with life as it is, problems with life as it is, right? It wouldn't be that interesting a story if your mind's just like, everything's wonderful.

Well, it's funny, I thought you were going to say— I thought the classic Dave line was going to be like, well, hey, if things are good and you're fine being your ego and identity and you feel whole, then don't worry about any of this stuff. And then the next line, which is like, well, that's nobody. Like, everybody feels like they're missing something. And then kind of just to circle back to what you said, and so the reason they feel that is because they are constantly living in this, like, what it should be versus what it is. Which is the ego's work.

I'm remembering a teacher who said something like, well, the, the pain is the gift of remembering that, like, the— it's not a, it's not a bug, it's a feature. The re— so yes, like, if you are perfectly peaceful and satisfied with your experience of life, please continue, right?

So Well, I think it's important only because like, I know when I first started doing this work, I was like, oh, everyone, you know, everyone. And then there's a bunch of people who are just like, but I'm good. Like, I don't— and it was not my place to tell them that they weren't. And I felt, you know, it created my own— it was my own work of conflict and ego, like, no, you should really pay more attention to this. And it's like, well, no, like, people are—

yeah, we can't know what anyone else's journey should be.

Yeah. And, and with it, you— the only way to maybe invite someone to it is when you say Hey, if you, if you feel good and everything's going great, then don't— like, you're good, like, carry on. It's like a little bit like, don't— you swipe up if this doesn't apply to you, you know. But, but it— but if you feel like something's missing, or you feel like you're suffering, or you feel like these negativity things, then, then, you know, there's probably an opportunity to look at this, look at ego, or start to understand ego.

Yeah, I, I'm remembering in, um, this 3-day workshop I did called the Landmark Forum. I, I'm pretty sure it was Dave Kashen. They were like, and I might've even shared this before, you know, if I open up the hood of my car, I see a blob of engine. I have no power to do anything about it. If a trained mechanic opens up the hood of my car, she or he sees like these distinct parts and how they all work together.

I like that.

And therefore has power to do something about it. So that's one way I think about like our job here is to create distinctions that were previously not distinguished for people so that they have more power to create the experience they want in their life. So to me, that's why I love this topic of the ego. Like most people just think I am, like you said, I'm this, this, this age, this success, this lack of, uh, you know, and, and then I am my thoughts, right? It's all part of it. And one. Right. That has you listen to your thoughts all day, which as we said, are all about all the problems you have. And so that inherently creates, I find, creates suffering because I think I have all these problems when in fact life just is as it is. I might have visions and goals and things I want to create, but I don't need to declare that there's anything wrong.

Right.

And in fact, one of my favorite questions that I ask clients all the time is, In this now moment, could you just allow everything to be as it is?

Right?

Or in this now moment, could you let go of wishing anything was different than it is? And most clients at times are willing. And like, what do you experience? They're like, oh, just total peace. They're like, but then immediately their mind goes, yeah, but how do I experience this in every other moment?

Right?

Which again, it's just the mind creating a problem. In the future that doesn't exist right now. So that's the— that's a little bit of the irony of like the ego lives outside of the now. In this now moment, there's nothing wrong. You can experience peace, but then the ego tries to like create a permanent— it's always trying to like control the future and make sure I'm always going to experience that. And, and by definition, then it takes you out of the present moment and, you know, creates a problem. So the ego is just constantly creating problems. The other thing Um, you said was it's, it's basically li— like limiting belief. If I think I am this way, I'm not that way.

Right. This is a personality.

Simply my thinking that makes it so.

Yep.

And we don't realize how self-fulfilling beliefs are. So that's another issue with ego in the sense of like, oh, I'm this, but you know, like I was a, I was an investment banker, I was a hedge fund. If I thought. I am an investor and that's how I identified myself, then the possibility of becoming a coach wouldn't have made sense. Right. And that's kind of a, in some ways, silly extreme example, but that's kind of what we do. We say like, I am this, or I, you know, I'm, I'm just not, I could never be an entrepreneur. I'm not that confident.

Right.

It's like, well, that's just a self-fulfilling belief. Um, and almost everything we experience is a result of self-fulfilling beliefs. So that's the other issue is if you believe I am these certain ways, it by definition limits you from, you know, I believe any human other than like certain physical feats, like, you know, whatever, dunking a basketball, but like any human could basically create what any other human could create if they just had the same consciousness and set of beliefs.

Yeah. And I think it's interesting, the person, you know, to your point on personality or this idea, you have identity, then you kind of put it out into the world. And then it reflects back to you. And then, you know, as a kid or whatever, then in 20 years later you're like, yeah, this is— these are— this is like who I am. I'm this way. I'm this way.

Yeah.

I think for me at least, I remember considering myself self-aware because I could actually describe my personality honestly, or what I thought was my personality honestly. And I think a lot of people, especially founders, are like, I'm this, this, this, and this and this. And In some ways it's a straitjacket. It is.

Well, it, by definition, your, your future becomes limited by your past, right? Because if you're, if you're using evidence from the past to determine who you are, then you can never become anything more than who you were. Right. And that's the trap a lot of people fall into. It's like, well, no, I clearly, I'm, I can't do that because I've never done it. And it's like, well, you never did anything until you first did it.

Right.

But as we get older, the, it calcifies that like, I'm this kind of a person, I'm not this kind of a person. And then we just gather all sort of, you know, self-confirming evidence. Um, and so yeah, it just becomes limiting. Um, there's also, I mean, well, there's two other things actually. Um, one is our source of value. So I think that's the other trap of being identified as the ego is it feels like, um, it's how we define our value. Our worth is like, oh, I'm, I am worthy because I am a successful entrepreneur. I'm a top coach. I'm a this. So the moment that feels threatened, it feels like an existential threat.

It's like the person who gets laid off after a decade and then goes into a tailspin or depression or Yes, because they had become so identified with— yeah, they may be low ego, they may be a humble human being, but, but their, their identity, their ego, who they thought they was, was that job. And then that boom, it was just—

who am I without that? Or most of our audience, you know, founders tend to identify as their startup, and so they're— they feel at a visceral level like their self-esteem, their worth is this rollercoaster of how they perceive their startup to be doing. Um, and then failure becomes this existential threat instead of just like, oh, I lost the game. You know, it's like, if we identify, I mean, that's the beauty and the gifts in—

is that not a healthy way to be though, as a founder? I mean, I think, again, I always imagine some of my founder friends and maybe old Jesse even like, What do you mean? I should be identified with my company. That's how I'm going to will it to success. I have to be— I have to eat, breathe, and sleep it. That's what's wrong with that, Dave, or why? Why is that not a good pattern?

Yeah, it's, it's an option. Um, and you know, we've talked about this a bit. What's tricky about it is it does kind of work in a certain way, like especially in our capitalist kind of structure, like If you have this deep sense of, you know, my worth, my identity is my startup. My worth is a function of my startup success. It really does motivate you and it can, it can create tremendous drive to achieve tremendous success. So I, in, at that level, I think it can work. Um, from my experience, if you talk to those founders the day after they've achieved that tremendous success. It's, it's a bit of a dark night of the soul often, cuz it's like, wait, this was the thing that I thought once I achieved, I, because my worth is a function of my company, I thought once my company succeeded, I would feel worthy, right? In like a really big, profound, sustainable way. I would feel whole. I would feel complete. I would feel fulfilled. I would feel peaceful. I'd feel happy. And again, like Well, and hold on, to make that a little less—

that's— it was a little broad. You talk to founders all the time that have this, right? I mean, isn't this a—

yes.

Like, how many founders have you spoken to who just made more than $10 million? Yes. And, and they say that to you, like, how many per month?

Uh, well, I was going to say 100%, but per month, I don't know. Like, I don't have founders selling their companies every month. But in a given year, at least several clients who have the experience of maybe it's a secondary that they take off $10 million or more, or they sell their company for, you know, and, and pocket literally $10 million or more. And there, there is a, there is a celebration, there's a joy, but like within a week they're like, okay, now this is the problem, right? Oh, now. Oh, well now I've never really worked for a big company. I don't know if they're, yeah. What if I can't, what if I'm not gonna be happy here? And I, oh, now I'm trapped and I gotta stick around. Or, or even like, now I'm worried about losing this money. How do I invest it? Well, how do I, in fact, I had a client yesterday that had this experience. Um, yeah, like what's the right number of digits? Hundreds of millions of dollars sale made more than $10 million. Um, substantially more. And it was like, I'm more stressed about money today than I was before I started the company. Which it's like, it's befuddling for most of us. Cause we're like, yeah, but me, like if it was me and I sold my company and I had that, no, I would be so, you know, and I used to not understand why people were still working. What's that?

I used to not understand why people would still be working.

Right.

And I would, I would just be like, oh, they must not have made money. Why, why are they still? I don't get it.

Right, like Scrooge McDuck. Why aren't they just like swimming in their money and, you know, hanging out on the beach? Um, and this is where I think, this is where I think it's really important to look at the nature of the ego mind. And, and, you know, because more and more I've been thinking about this a lot lately for my own life, you know, as I have more and more clients have these kind of experiences that like the nature of the ego seems to be to create problems and suffering.

Yep.

And so no matter where you go, there you are. No matter what external conditions you create, there you are. And I think it's, it's like, I just feel really passionate about like waking people up to at least examine whether the, the game you're playing is a game that you actually is, is the one you actually wanna win, or said another way, if winning the game you're playing will actually give you the thing you think it will. And one of the things that's occurred to me recently is if you look at what everyone really wants and what everyone really fears. So to make that less, like if I said to you, okay, Jesse, what do you really want? Or okay, a given cl— ah, I wanna sell my startup, you know, for a billion dollars and have all this success, make all this money for people, blah, blah, blah. And you ask, okay, what will having that do for you? Oh, I'll feel, I'll be so exciting. I'll have all the possibilities. I'll be able to do whatever I want. What will having that do? Eventually they're like, I'll feel joy, right? I'll feel free. And on the other side, okay, what if it fails?

Ah.

It would be terrible. I'll let all these people down. I'll be so disappointed. I'll feel like a failure. Okay. And, and, you know, and so what, what's the, so what of that? What's the, so what of that? I will feel shame. I will feel sadness. I will feel fear. Um, everything that we fear and everything that we want is really just a set of feelings, right? Which in and of itself is a pretty mind-blowing I, for me, or like you say, sometimes bodily sensations, which I've said to people, and that's like, uh, well, that's an even— it's even crazier feelings.

It feels like a charged word.

They're literally just bodily sensations, physical sensations. Yeah, like we want to feel a certain set of physical sensations, not others. So I think from my experience, when I'm identified as my ego Um, I feel, I, I feel kind of anxious. I feel like something's missing. Like, that seems to be like the quality of that experience is something's wrong here. It's almost like inherent, like there's something wrong here. And at the least, we know that if I identify as, you know, all of these quality, like I'm a husband, I'm a father, you know, like, I'm at this job, I'm at that job. Those things are all impermanent. So like, at the least, there's a sense of threat because those things are going to go away. And of course, and we could talk about death, right? Like, you know, we are going to go, our personality, our thoughts, at some point we are going to die and those things will cease. So at the least, there's this existential threat that we live with of I'm identified as this temporary, impermanent set of things that are going to end at some point. And I think that's part of the unexamined for most people's experience. There's this sense of anxiety around that.

So, what I'm hearing, I think a couple of things just to pull them out. I think one is because the ego, the brain just has thoughts and they tend to be negative, as you said earlier, and they tend to be selfish, they tend to have all these orientations. Regardless of your life circumstance, the same sets of thoughts take place. Now, they may take place with different content, right? And I think, I think it's a really like— because when you're a founder, you're running a business, like you hear this from founders, oh, whether my business is a million, I thought my problems would be solved at 10 million. When is it 10 million? I thought my 100 million, or when I sold it, I thought they'd be solved. And every time the experience is the same, because when you're in the ego, that's just what— that's the human gonna human and ego gonna ego.

Just tell us stories of problems, right? So Like you're—

if you're identified as essentially making that desire for peace or joy or freedom impossible. Yes, effectively. And even I think— and you and I have talked about this a little bit, but even like people get into the spiritual journey and seeking, right? And then you have that same experience because you're still like, oh, I want to be enlightened, or I want to be spiritual, or I want to be a great mom. Or like, I think it's interesting to realize that this is a pattern that is way beyond being founders or being even highly ambitious people. But everybody has this pattern. Yeah.

Well, I love, I love that you brought that up. There are many, many people for who are spiritual seekers for whom spiritual enlightenment is the exact, like exact parallel to a founder wanting to sell their company for a billion dollars. It's this thing. It's basically like, like the ego wants spiritual awakening, but like the ego is the thing that like, like the limited perspective can't have the expanded perspective, right? Like I think I've used the metaphor of like, you know, if the ego is like the blinders on the horse, you can never see what's beyond the blinders through the blinders, right?

Um, and what was it Ram Dass says? Ego's the, uh, enlightenment is the ego's ultimate disappointment.

That's— I love that, right? Um, it's not an experience. I've been listening to a bunch of, um, talks and reading books by this, uh, spiritual teacher Rupert Spira. Well, let me make two points actually. The one I was gonna make earlier around like, if everything we ultimately want is a feeling, um, there's just, I think, more direct ways to experience that feeling than trying to make life, you know, make your external conditions match your idea of how they should be, right? And, um, what this, this teacher Rupert Spira said is, is joy is the experience of recognizing your true self. That's beautiful. Like, that's what joy is, right?

And recognizing, you know, and, and like, and maybe the reason your ego disappears when you make a billion dollars is for one moment you don't have that worry or fear Or when a kid is born, or you're not wishing anything was different. Yeah.

The— Locke Kelly said, like, if there's no problems, what's here now? That's another way to access it.

Right.

It's like, it's like if the ego is the problem solver and there's no problems, it can relax for a moment, but then it goes right back and invents new problems to, to, you know, to assert its relevance. And so, so in the last few minutes here, like, What's—

let's put together the Founder's Guide to Ego.

Let me just finish the spiritual alignment thread real quick just so I don't leave it hanging. So, um, spiritual enlightenment can become this, the next like achievement thing. And what he says that I found really powerful is it's actually— it's not, it's not an achievement, it's not even an experience, it's just a recognition of something that's already true, which is that you are not your ego. That, um, and then I'll just— one other thing, just it's an important seed, even because if you're like, I'm, I'm Jesse, I'm husband and father, but when you were 5 years old, you weren't those things, but yet you were still you. So I think that's a useful access point, is like there is this sense of I am that precedes whatever comes after it. I am husband, I am father. Just that a lot of spiritual traditions use this to access it. Just this sense of self, this sense of I am that you experience, you know, like, how do you even know that you're the same being that you were when you were 5 and 7 and 20 and 30 and last week? There's this sense of self, this sense of I am that does feel persistent, and I think is closer to like our, you know, If you think about it, if the word essential just means unchanging, right? Like the essential self is that unchanging sense of self, that sense of I am, that is not a concept, it's a sense. And all the concepts, if you notice, like when you were 5, you had a self-concept that was really different than the one you had when you were 20 and the one you have now and the one you'll have when you're 80.

Yeah. It's almost like there's one shaped by your feeling and there's one shaped by your brain.

Right.

And those are different over time.

Yes. And in fact, like, body awareness is a way also— like, I'm doing this thing called the Realization Process where you really feel the sense of self in your feet, in your legs, and your— throughout your body. And, and you can feel this sense of spaciousness that feels like closer to like, okay, this, this is who I am, like, essentially. That's different than these mental concepts.

Yeah.

All right. You want to do Founder's Guide to Transcending the Ego, or—

well, not true. Well, it's funny, I didn't want to use the word transcending because I feel like that, that's a trap that everyone, including myself, have gotten stuck into.

And I think conquering—

maybe the quote I would start with that, that I feel like has been very helpful for me is this, uh, I forgot who said it, but, uh, the mind is a, is a wonderful servant and a terrible master. I think one of the things we haven't said it explicitly, but like, if you believe you are your thoughts and/or you give them more, more importance than something out happening in the world around you, or then somebody else's, like, they, you know, they're, they're your master, they, you know, you do what they say. Or, or I think, uh, Eckhart Tolle is like, it's an addiction. Thinking is an addiction because you can't stop it even if you want to. And so I think Yeah, I'm curious how you would advise founders. So we bought into it. We understand that ego is our sense of self. We understand that it probably is creating some suffering and making us less happy. And, and, and it's like sort of impossible to overcome theoretically or like the desire, you know, what do I do then?

It's probably useful to consider that your ego and your mind are not going to go away. So how do you You know, so what's the so what of that rather than trying to make them go away and you know, what you resist persists, like that can make it worse. Um, there's a metaphor that I've shared with a number of clients that they find useful that I'll, I'll start with, which is, um, we tend to think of ourselves as like, if you imagine a circle like I am what's inside the circle and the external world is what's outside the circle. I'm just, you know, um, so inside the circle is like my thoughts, my feelings, you know, my sensations outside the circle is, you know, what I see, what I hear, you know, et cetera. I think it's useful to imagine like an inner inner circle that is closer to your essential self. And then the middle circle, the distinction between the middle circle and the outer circle become less important. So whether, um, I hear a voice coming from my mind, or I hear a voice coming from your mouth, start to become less important. And I think that's like just an interesting, useful way to start to experience your reality differently. And even like, you could even go further. If I feel a feeling in my body, or I feel like it's cold outside, like those are different sensations, right? Like you could also start to think those could be less— the distinction could be less and less important. Whether it's sort of in here or out there, those are both, um, outside of the inner inner circle, which is just the, the awareness, the spaciousness, um, in which those things are occurring. Right.

How do we start to do this? That sounds like a really advanced tactic.

Yeah.

Um, up until I listened to this podcast, I thought I was— those thoughts were me. And now I— you've convinced me that they might not be and that making me less happy.

So I will make a plug for meditation because I do think the practice of, um, disassociating, detaching from your thoughts and observing your thoughts is a useful practice. And for lack of—

by the way, the game changer in meditation for me, I don't know if I've told you this, I'm sure, but it was a random article I read that, that said It's not like everyone thinks it's— you're supposed to not have thoughts. And if you talk to most people, I'm not a good meditator. Oh, what does that mean? They go, well, then I have thoughts, and then I'm pissed off, and I'm frustrated, and I'm trying to not have thoughts, and it's really, really hard, right?

I'm bad meditating.

I mean, so that's what most people say. I tried it and it didn't work for me. Um, and that what they mean is I had a ton of thoughts.

It was like torture sitting there trying not to think while your thoughts are happening.

Yeah. Um, And what the reframe for me that was valuable was like, there's, uh, it's practice not reacting to your thoughts. So it's building a muscle. So typically when we have a thought, we either react, we have like an emotional reaction, or we, we do something. It's like, oh, I gotta call somebody, I gotta get back to them. And to be able to sit and have the thought and then not do anything about it in a, in a 7-minute session or whatever Then like you're sitting in your email and someone sends you an asinine email and it's just like, oh wait, I can think that this guy's an asshole and I don't need to do anything about it because I've practiced that in a, in a, you know, different setting. And so for me, that was a huge reframe that, yeah.

Or I can notice my mind say, oh God, what if you're, what if you screw this up and the meeting goes badly and they hate you and they don't, you don't get the money and everyone quits it. Right. Like, um, So it's the same. Well, I'll just use your metaphor. Yeah. It's the same muscle that you could, you could set aside time in the morning or evening or midday, whatever, you know, and practice that. And I think it, it's really important point that like, even if just once in 7 minutes, you're like, oh, that was a thought, you know, like instead of just being hooked in the thoughts, right? Um, like I sometimes use the metaphor of like the mind is like the fisherman and you're this happy little fish, you know, swimming in the present moment. And then the mind hooks you with the thought. So even once, if you're like, oh, I was hooked in a thought and you unhook and just notice the thought once in 7, 10, 20 minutes, like that's useful. So in that moment, you know, if you're literally just in your thoughts for 20 minutes, you probably won't think I did a bad job until it's done because you're not even thinking about thinking. But you know, most of the time, at least once you have that. So if you can do that once, then you can do it another time and another time. And so in some way, meditation, noticing meditation off, you know, on the mat. And then I, and then there's almost like meditation off the mat, right? Like your life becomes a living meditation where just, um, you start to be able to notice more and more of the time, oh, that was a thought. You know, okay, that's my mind. Um, one thing that I have clients do, you know, to your playbook question is start to create like a bit of a map or a, you know, like, um, to identify what are the different types of storytellers, you know, in that my mind kind of takes on.

The pattern. Yeah. The pattern.

Or pattern. Yeah. What are the patterns of thoughts? Because if you know what to look for, it's easier to catch it in the moment. So if I know I have a really loud inner critic and my mind says, oh, you totally screwed that up, or you're not as good a coach as this other one, or, or my mind compares me to others, or my mind imagines doomsday scenarios. If I know that's one thing that my storyteller mind does, then in the moment when my mind is doing that, it's easier to be like, oh, that's that thing that, yeah, okay, my mind is doing what it does. So in practice, and what do I do then when that happens to me? What's that?

So like, one of my patterns might be comparing myself and financially how much money someone has versus me. Yeah, I know that. And what do I do when that happens? Because what I normally do— and I'm speaking for our listeners— like, well, then I normally say, stop doing that. You know how to do that. What's wrong with you? Like, that's not gonna get you anywhere. So what do I do when I notice those patterns?

So first, I was let me just go a step before that. The reason you know that is because you've paid attention to your mind and you've noticed it happen a few times. So I would spend a week or two literally keeping a journal, writing down the thoughts that you notice and, and identifying the patterns. Oh, comparing. That is one thing my mind does. Okay, now I know my mind does compare this comparing thing. Now when I catch it doing the thing, I'm in essence some form of seeing through it. Like, oh, that's just my mind doing what it does. And, um, there's a, a ton of different experiments you could run. One, um, that Joe Hudson recommended that I like is, um, say to your mind, uh, I hear that you're scared and I love you.

Mm-hmm.

Because you're recognizing like the mind is acting out of fear and already that's like detaching from it, right?

You're not changing the pattern.

You're, yeah.

Yeah.

You're changing the pattern. Another is you could literally just ignore it and, and go back to whatever, you know, just like if some random person, some drunk homeless person said that to you, right? You know, you could just ignore that voice. So you could just ignore it. Um, you could play with it. You could, um, there's lots of different experiments, but something other than listen to it and believe it as true and engage with it.

And even like, I know we've talked about this in the past, but like shifting your body position. Or like just literally changing the juju in that moment.

Yeah. Bring your attention down from your head into your body.

Yeah. Right?

Like just like starve it of energy, right? You're giving it your energy by engaging with it. Starve it of your energy and attention by coming down into your body, by coming down into the present moment. Like I'll literally have clients sometimes when they're really caught up in their thoughts, I'll be like, put your hand on the desk. You know, bang the desk like that's real. Like this all, you're literally just making this stuff up. Like this hasn't happened. This isn't real, you know? And, um, so some way of bringing yourself back into reality out of kind of your, your like, you know, story land in your mind. Um, the other thing, and this could be a good sort of, uh, plug for a future conversation is often what keeps the patterns, the thought patterns in place is some feeling that we haven't been willing to feel. So that's the other place I would look is, ooh, I'm thinking this, like, what is this thought allowing me to avoid feeling?

Right. Yeah. What am I avoiding feeling or what am I protecting? Last question. I want to end just maybe like the— an example or future state for everyone. Like who— it doesn't have to be a specific person, but like when you've seen someone who's, who seems to have really— a founder, someone running a company, someone building a business who seems to have made the mind a wonderful servant and not a terrible master, or at least is further along in that journey than others, what are some of the patterns, you know? What does that look like? What is the day in the life of that person, or what are the kinds of behaviors? Paint that picture for us.

So, I'm fond of saying the team that sees reality clearest wins, or the leader that sees reality clearest. So, there's a way in which they're just present and really grounded in reality. So they're neither ignoring the facts of the case, nor getting all like dramatic and scaring, you know, scaring themselves. So they, they tend to be, I'd say, not emotionless, but relatively calm and present because they're, they're, um, not believing their mind telling them that everything's a problem. So they're more just present, like, okay, this is what it is. Mm-hmm. And then they're focusing on the future they want to create. So at a really simple level, like if you were to go into their mind, um, they're most of the time either just present to what is or focusing on their desired future and taking some action, having some conversation that's very intentional moving toward the desired future. And they're, they get pretty good at noticing when they're Um, doing something other than that, like wishing the present was already different than it is and creating frustration, or focusing on the undesired future state and creating fear. And they come back to flow, right? So they, they notice when they're in frustration or fear and they come back into flow. Um, so it's interesting because some of it you wouldn't notice because it's internally, but their internal experience tends to be more centered more of the time. And so they're able to respond, not react. But the things you notice externally are there's not a lot of reactivity. Mm-hmm. Um, they're probably like responding pretty deliberately to what's happening, you know, in a way that is more likely to create the future they want. So it doesn't mean they're not, again, they're not emotionless. They might get excited or angry or upset, but it's in a very like they're communicating that that's occurring rather than, like, to your point, they're not like the servant of that.

There's a nuance where I feel like I've met founders who are— almost feels like they're holding it in to stay, to stay, you know, almost like stoic. When people read about stoic stuff, it feels like they misinterpret it as like, I need to keep it all together and I got to hold it all in.

Repression and suppression.

Yeah. Which I think it's just a fine line for people like versus some of the founders I feel who are more further along in this, they, they feel They feel calm and, but they're, but they'll voice things like, yeah, I'm feeling frustrated. I could feel the frustration that's here. Or I don't, you know, I'm noticing that I'm whatever.

Like they share it, but not at people. So it's like, they're just like, oh, I noticed I'm frustrated. I noticed I'm upset and I want this thing. And they'll, you know, so they'll set boundaries and, you know, we talked a bit about that. Um, but they don't react. They don't get reactive. You know, nearly as much as most people do. And that lack of reactivity allows them to connect more deeply with the people on their team to, um, be more creative, you know, in the moment. Um, to frankly communicate more candidly, like just to reveal what's going on for them instead of trying to control things. Um, it actually is simpler to lead. They're, they're in some way doing more leading, less managing, cuz they're not constantly trying to control everything.

Um, I do also think there's like this thing of like, they look at it like a game and they seem to talk about it like a game. Like, I—

they're having more fun, frankly. They're enjoying it a lot more and that spills over. And then other people, you know, there's less fear, there's more joy. Um, that spills over into the culture as well.

There's— I'll end on the story. You were actually there, I think. We were visiting Red Ventures and one of my execs asked Rick, they were like, you know, aren't you afraid Google's going to, you know, eat your lunch in this such-and-such business? And he goes, you want me to answer that as a CEO or as a person? Do you remember this? And I think she said both. Or she said— I don't remember his CEO answer. I'm sure it was a CEO answer. But he's like, as a person, he's like, dude, I'm like, I'm like one quarter of Google's Africa revenue. Like, I don't give a shit about— like, he's just like, he's basically like, this is a game. Like, who am I in the grand scheme of things? And I'm going to play my best at it. I want to do a good job. You know, it was like a funny answer.

He's like, yeah, well, I love the game. Like, if you don't— if you don't— again, back to ego, which was our topic. If you don't make the company winning or losing mean anything about you, right, your worth, your security, your freedom, like, if you don't make it personal, if you don't make it mean anything about you, if you separate your being from the doing— another way to say it— then it can feel like a game.

Right.

Right. I had a client, and I was going to end here. I had a client, and I realized she loved to play Monopoly. Loved it. And I was like, okay, well, what if this felt like playing Monopoly? That's what's available, that lightness. And it doesn't mean you don't, you know, take things seriously when necessary.

It doesn't mean you don't play hard.

It doesn't mean you don't play to win.

Right.

But you could play your heart, you know, full heart, play your heart out. But it doesn't have that like heavy seriousness that comes when you have this like ego attachment.

All right. Thank you, Dave. Thanks everyone.

My pleasure.

We'll see everyone soon.

All right.

All right.