Why Even Billionaires Still Don’t Feel Safe

All right, welcome to another episode. I don't know what episode number this is, like 20 or something, of The Heart of Entrepreneurship. You know, one of the funny things about this show for me, you know, my whole life I've done things that I'm like, oh my God, we got to hit numbers and achieve. This is one thing I look forward to every week and I like make time for, you know, there's so many other things because I just have— I enjoy it and I think it'll I'm sure it'll get big at some point, but it's just been a fun thing to do. And I don't know, I think that's a, that's kind of the essence of, in some ways, the heart of entrepreneurship.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was talking to someone recently about, well, what are your goals? And I was like, well, this podcast thing, I just love doing it. And yeah, I'm curious. I don't want to slip into the trap of like, pretending not to be attached so that we can achieve an outcome, but I truly feel unattached. And a story I make up is because both of us just love doing it, that it likely will be successful at some point, whatever, however we define that, you know, wide reach impacts a lot of people. And that feels great to me. And it is very meta because this does feel like in line with the whole concept of The Heart of Entrepreneurship is What if you just follow your aliveness, follow your flow, follow your wants? And so it's fun to be doing that with you.

How was the episode last week with Gagan?

Hmm. I really enjoyed it. Uh, he's so brilliant and so experienced. I mean, you know, he's, he's been on this startup journey many times. Udemy is a unicorn company. Maven is doing really well. And then he had the experience with Sprig of like, you know, sort of meteoric rise, 1,200 employees, and then going to zero. So he has just a wealth of—

He's seen it all.

Yeah, he's seen it all. And he is just a brilliant guy with a big heart. So it was, I think it was a really rich, like very, very pragmatic discussion around like the ins and outs of kind of where are your own psychology and inner work meet like the actual experience of running a startup. So I really enjoyed it.

Yeah, I'm excited to listen to it. It's interesting. I mean, even this you mentioned, I like— there are listeners and also people find it and I— and funny again, I mean, my most of my life I've defined success as like numbers, performance, marketing, growth and the quality. Like Guggen reached out to me a few months ago. I think I sent this to you, but it was like, oh, thanks for like recommending Dave's course.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, because I did it and it was really powerful. And I think those, and we get similar kinds of messages about this, this podcast, I think, which are like more deep and heartfelt, even if they're not voluminous.

Yeah. And I think if, if both of us are honest, hearing one person say, hey, I listened to that podcast and it really affected me and I, you know, really shaped something in me or shifted something in me and making a difference in actual humans' lives, I think is what really lights both of us up. So that's my hope and intention is that people listen and are really moved and inspired or something, you know, something really connects that shifts their experience.

Yeah. All right. Well, today's episode, this is the Heart of Entrepreneurship. If it's the first time you're here, Dave Kashen and I are both entrepreneurs. Dave is an amazing coach, one of the best coaches in America, I'll say, my words, and for founders, for CEOs. And here we explore how do you, you know, building a company, being ambitious, but doing it with heart, doing it from love. And we think that's a really ambitious premise fundamentally, which is to say we've seen a lot of companies grow really big and maybe they prey on fear and they're challenging places to work, but we want to stand for a world where you can be really ambitious and have, you know, uh, successful companies.

I'm reminded of this Ben Horowitz quote. I think it was from Hard Thing About Hard Things, or, um, where he's like, if you build like a big company with a shitty culture, all you've really done is made like a couple thousand people miserable. Uh, I'm paraphrasing, obviously, right? You know, and Um, I also, I just want to name, I think that it matters sort of where you come from and how you're motivated and like the context and consciousness with which you're building your company. Um, I think it matters even to like how you design your products and services and like in an age where a small group of founders are having increasing influence on the world through the products and services that they create. You know, and the proliferation of technology, obviously AI in particular. Like, I'm really, I just know a lot of my attention is going to, you know, what is the consciousness of the human beings that are building these technologies and how might that shape the future? You know, if they're coming from more of this, you know, fear and ego-based, like attainment and drive engagement and, you know, versus driving impact and wellbeing. Um, so it's something I think a lot about and really passionate about.

Well, and like in an AI-first world, it, it may be the only thing that's human, like that's left to be human is the heart. If the brain— anyway, we'll save that for another day. So I want to start today with a story. I was sitting right here in this office and 5 years ago, around this time, actually. So September, October, 5 years ago, I don't know if you remember, I had moved to St. Louis. I had transitioned out as CEO of Ambush., and I was like living the executive chairman life and was like spending some time like, what am I going to do next? And it was supposed to be like a relaxing, chill time, but it ended up actually being pretty anxiety-inducing. And I was like, oh, I don't know, what should I be? An investor? Should I like, should I start this studio idea I have? Should I like— somebody wants me to buy a bunch of e-commerce businesses, like some of the roll-ups that were like, and The reason I thought about that story, one was at one point you were like, hey, did you think that you were going to do all of this conscious leadership work and, you know, build all this stuff up and then you were just going to be like totally zen all the time? And I started to say no. And then I was like, no, yes, I actually did think that that was what was going to happen. And it was like a funny realization for me to actually see that I at some level had thought, you know, you kind of do the work once and then it's over. But the second thing that happened was you introduced me in a more detailed way to the Sedona Method at that time. And I had a little bit of extra time. And, you know, it's, it's this interesting, you know, it's almost like the way I think about a lot of this stuff, whether it's meditation or conscious leadership or medicine or breathwork, like, you know, it's like you're an athletic person, you know, different, different weightlifting exercises versus cardio, like, they're just different ways to work your, your body. And whether it's prayer, I mean, there's so many modalities of of spiritual work, I think. But that— but one way is just to learn different, different sort of philosophies. And that Sedona Method was a new one and a different one, and actually one that I still use at times, and I think it's really cool. So I want to go deep on that today. Okay, maybe you start by just explaining what it is, maybe how you came in touch with it, and, uh, and then— yes, that.

Sure. Uh, I was introduced to it, uh, by I believe Jim Dethmer and Diana Chapman, founders of Conscious Leadership Group. And in some way it's a practice of deep welcoming, just like welcoming what is deep welcoming and deep noticing. So it does a lot of like contrast and yeah, I think, well, you and I just chatted a little bit about potentially connecting it to, um, Commitment 11 of the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, which is the commitment around, um, the way they describe it as being the source of your security, control, and approval. So I just want to connect these dots. Um, and so the, you know, the Conscious Leadership talks about those as like the big three sort of human, human needs, like the sense of security, the sense of control and freedom and approval and worthiness. And, and I'll, I'll connect this back to the Sedona Method. But if you look at our lives, most people, most founders are sourcing their sense of security, control and approval externally. Right. Based on, you know, other people can, you know, what people think of them, their conditions, money, success, et cetera.

And well, and it's, and it's, I mean, to the point, just like, I think it's worth pausing there. Like it, it's so common, right? I mean, most human beings, the first time you introduced it to me, I was like, what are you talking about? Of course. What do you mean? So like my whole life I've thought about how I need to make a certain, I mean, if you go to Twitter, I need to make a certain amount of money. Once I hit the number, then my life will feel—

then I'll feel free.

Or yeah. Or, you know, I need to be— I need to get into this college in order to get to this job. And, you know, I need— I need to get that approval. Like, it needs to be. And it's, you know, I'll also give another funny shout out to, like, you know, Indian culture, like Indian culture. Like, I think— I think generally American or like maybe slightly more liberal American culture is like, oh, you don't talk about how much money you make, or like, you don't talk about that as an important thing. It's kind of— even though it is, you kind of— in Indian culture, they're like, dude, you need to make a lot of money. You need to, you know, you need to keep, you know, take care of your family, whatever. You need to make sure everybody— like, control. You're supposed to control. Control your kids, control your wife, like, control, you know. And then, and then, yeah, you should be a good, upstanding person? What will the community think? Like, there's a whole— there's a whole interesting thing. And there's a separate— maybe a separate podcast about Indian culture. But the point I'm making is like, I think the idea that we source them externally is so common that it feels like drinking water or breathing air. Like, of course we do. Like, of course those are important things everybody should seek.

Yeah, it's like the, it's like hiding in plain sight, right? It's like this unexamined part of our experience.

Um, so maybe the first question that the Andrew Warner question is, what's wrong with that, Dave? Of course I should, I should get those things and, you know, I gotta get money, dude.

Like, yeah, not there.

Howard, just live in a nice house.

I'd say there's nothing wrong with it other than the fact that it doesn't work. So, you know, I don't really operate in the, like, you should live this way and not that way. I would invite you or anyone to deeply examine, does it actually work? Right? Like, if you look at people who have made a ton of money, if you actually, you know, talk to these people, do they actually have this deep sense of security? Freedom and worthiness? And if so, is it because of the money? You know, and if not, well, what does that mean? And from my experience, you know, more often than not, even people who have achieved their wildest dreams or maybe beyond their wildest dreams, billion, you know, billion dollars, multi-billion dollar, you know, exit, you know, hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in wealth. From my experience, it doesn't like, shift their inner world suddenly, right? Their psychology doesn't shift. So the same patterns of I'm not enough, you know, sourcing, first of all, their sense of self based on a certain status or wealth or accomplishments or, you know, social status. It's like, you know, the treadmill just gets faster. And now it's like, okay, but that guy, you know, it's comparative, right? Oh, that guy has $2 billion and a, you know, a G5, and I only have this. Like, yeah.

Can you, can you give, without identifying I wanna like make this a little more real for people. Like, do you have an example of someone who you know, or you coached who, let's go through each of these real quick. So yeah, security is like money.

Well, security is a sense of safety, like a deep sense of I'm, I'm secure. I'm safe. I'm secure. Um, and by the way, I think this is an important point to make. All of these are really just like a sense. It's not an actual thing, right? It's not like, I know I have safety. Here's my little safety. And I put it on my desk. It's an inner sense of I'm safe. I have all the control I need. I don't need to control anything that I can't and I'm worthy.

Right.

Right.

Um, I have all these. Yeah. It's funny. As I said it, I like looked at myself in the mirror for a second. I realized I connect money to security. So at a deep level, I immediately projected that. Whereas I could, I was like, wait, no, someone could think of control and money as the same thing. Approval and money.

Approval and money, right? I'll be worthy once I have this success and this. And if you really, it's just, it's like you said, it's like in the air we breathe is this mindset of like, I will be safe when I will, I will have enough control over things when I will be, have enough approval when, right? Or enough worthiness when, and the whole, it's like a rigged game because when never arrives, or though whatever's after the when always changes based on where you are and what you, you know, it's like a pattern that you just project because you arrive at the X, right? I'll, I'll have, just to say, a sense of safety when I have $10 million. You arrive at the $10 million and you're like, oh, I don't feel a sense of safety, right? And then you just say, okay, I guess I was wrong about the X, maybe it's $20 million. And then you arrive at $20 million, like Nope, still don't feel it. I guess I was wrong about the X. Maybe it's 50, maybe it's 100, maybe it's a billion. And the, the, the sort of joke of it is the whole game is rigged. Like, that's not actually— like, if you can't experience it now, you'll never experience it, but you can experience it now.

But what, what are some examples of people you've seen who thought— who sort of lived that life?

I mean, I have my own story around that, but Well, what, like one that's coming to mind and yeah, of course won't name names or anything, but I remember, uh, yeah, a founder who, uh, you know, sold their company, made hundreds of millions of dollars and was, um, deciding whether to buy a certain house, you know, and it was, it wasn't cheap. It was maybe 7, 8, $9 million. You know, it's a lot of money, but in the scheme of the hundreds of millions and like my children's children's children will never have to work. Right. Just the interest on their money was, you know, whatever, tens of millions of dollars a year. So, and like was really stressing about like, is this the right decision? You know, what if I make bad investment decisions and I lose my money and then I've put all this money in this house? Like, it was almost dumbfounding for me. I'm like, really? Like, is this actually occurring like this? Person with this wealth is having. And yes. And I, and so that's a, that's a great, I think a good example, like the things that we struggle with around money don't seem to go away just because we have more of it. And also the comparative thing.

When we had the big Ambush exit, I remember the excitement of the, you know, the relief. Nick and I cried that day. We were like, whew. Like, man, you know, we spent a decade plus on this thing, you know, and it's done. Like, it's done and it's done successfully, right? And, uh, but that's how it felt in the moment.

And then you made what most people would describe as a life-changing amount of money.

Yes. And then I felt like, celebrate, like excited and hyped, like within hours or days. Right? And then I felt this insane sense of scarcity, which is I can't— oh my God, it's here now. The pile is here. I can't lose the pile. I can't let the pile dwindle. I can't like it. And it was the strangest thing. And I don't know if you may not remember this, but like my dream car as a kid was an Aston Martin, right? And I went to go look at it and I was like all excited. And then I was like, oh no, no. Like, that's going to bring the number down. I can't, I can't do that. Like, no, no.

Because my safety depends on having now this pile.

Yeah.

And I'll judge myself if I lose it. I'll feel less secure. Right. And, you know, for most people, the amount of money that they need is more.

Yeah. That's a good way of saying it.

It's just more, more than they have now. And if it goes down, that's really bad and scary. And, um, Uh, I was just gonna say something. Hold on. Oh, there's like this story about, um, I think it was like Joseph Heller and some other author, the Catch-22 author, and they're sitting in this like pub and drinking and there's these like hedge fund guys come in and I, I doubt this is a true story, but I heard it. Um, so I'm recounting it and. You know, uh, the other author says to Joseph Heller, like, you, you've wrote one of like the most extraordinary books of our time, and that dude makes more money in a day than you've made from the entire book sales of Catch-22. Like, how do you feel about that? He's like, oh, I feel fine. He's like, oh really? He's like, why? He's like, well, I have something that he'll never have. And the guy's like, well, what's that? He says, enough.

Yeah. So we can— well, my head also went to like when you were saying that, like Ray Dalio, you know, who seems like a very nice person, by the way, but like best hedge fund in history, right? Multibillion dollar. The guy's whatever he's worth. And now he's like doing the same shit I'm doing, like tweeting and on Instagram and like putting his content and his book out because people who make— I see a lot of people actually approach me who have way more money than me who are like, how did you do that, Jesse? Like, how do all these people— because now they want something different. Now they want influence or they want, You know, and I guess all of this to say the, the point of sourcing control, security, and approval from outside yourself, when you said it doesn't work, I guess what you're saying is you may think that's going to get it to you, but every time you try to do it from somewhere else, it never, you'll never actually experience.

Right. And so then the goalpost changes to your point. So, okay, now I have a billion dollars, but I still don't feel a sense of worthiness or safety. So now Maybe it's about influence or impact, right? And you just change the game to something you don't already have because it's inside that same mindset. There must be something out there that's going to give it to me. And you know, it's, I've heard the metaphor of like the hungry ghost, right? Like you can never fill the hungry ghost, right? Just everything you try to fill it with goes right through. And the, for lack of a better word, sort of joke of it is that and it is a deep exploration. My sense is like, who we really are is already whole and complete and enough. So the belief that I need this thing to feel safe or, you know, have enough control or worthiness inherently obfuscates us from recognizing our inherent wholeness.

Right.

And so anything that supports that belief that we're not already whole like, uh, reifies the illusion. And so that's why all these things don't work. The other thing I just want to say, because I think money is a key part of this, um, that's been helpful to some clients is even when they talk about security, what they really mean is lifestyle maintenance, right? Like, there are, there are humans in the world who don't have enough food to survive. And, or food, clothing, and shelter, we could say. And that's, you know, like, I don't want to, you know, pretend that like that's not true and that money wouldn't make a profound difference in their sense of safety. I think that's worth just noting. And, but, you know, for most of our listeners and, you know, the kind of folks or the level of wealth and, um, lifestyle and frankly, you know, especially if they're a US audience, even the safety net, like the chances of not having, actually not having enough food, clothing, and shelter for your physical survival are close to zero.

Yep.

So then what are we actually talking about? If we just, you know, again, if we just stay with security, we're really talking about like your lifestyle, like, oh, I'd have to sell my house. Okay. Like, yeah, maybe you would, you know, and then you live somewhere else, maybe a smaller house in a different neighbor.

And I, you know, I'm not saying that it kind of feels like it bleeds into approval and control in its own sense.

Right? Exactly. Yeah. It becomes more about image and shame. Right. If I, like, if I imagine, you know, I'm, I'm human, like none of us are immune to this. If I imagine, you know, no more clients, I lose all my investment wealth and like can't pay my mortgage. Like, you know, that's not— I'm not like, oh yeah, no problem. I might, you know, I aspire to get to a place where I truly would see that as like, okay, in this moment, I can feel like constriction in my throat and my chest when I imagine it. I imagine shame, you know, and again, working on welcoming shame, but just like right now, it just feels like, like, tell everybody, like, I can't afford my house, I have to sell it. And like move and like feel like, you know, head held low. Like, so yeah, I think it's mostly just that experience.

I was a bad coach, so I got fired by a bunch of people and therefore I can no longer afford this home.

Like, right. Like, oh, I'm not as good as I thought I was. I don't make, you know, like there's so much wrapped up in my identity and that's really what's at risk. Um, is your identity, your sense of who you are. Which isn't true, right? It's a, it's a made-up construct that's distinct from who you actually are. And by the way, I mean, that's the deepest exploration that takes us into that sense of security, control, and approval. So that I wanna, I wanna kind of quickly talk about control and approval and then draw, use that thread back to Sedona Method. So I actually didn't get this for a while. Like to me, like letting go of sourcing my sense of safety outside myself. Like, that kind of made sense. Um, and one thing that helped me was this practice of presence, because I really— well, I'll just, I'll just kind of frame it as a practice. Like, for you, Jesse, for you listeners, can you find any lack of safety if you couldn't leave the present moment? Like, in this pre-present moment, can you actually find any lack of safety?

Right? No.

Yeah. And most people realize, no, I can't. Like, because in this now moment— I mean, even if a lion were 10 feet away from me, in this now moment, I'm actually totally fine, right? It's just a minute from now or a second from now, it might come and you know, kill me. Um, that's an extreme. And in most cases there's no lion, there's no real threat. So it's really, uh, we have to imagine something happening in the future that's not happening now to feel that sense of I'm not safe. Um, and that's true for all three, but I really didn't get it for a while around control. I was like, what does that mean to like let go of sourcing control externally? And I asked Diana Chapman and, and her explanation really helped me. Um, and basically it was when I think I need to control things that I can't control, right? Like, yeah, it's like the Serenity Prayer. That's like sourcing control externally. If all I need to control is the things that are actually within my control, well then there's no problem, right? Right. There's no unmet need.

It's like the Serenity Prayer.

Yeah, exactly. Give me the strength to change the things I can, to accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I feel like that last part is always the—

Yeah.

Doozy.

Yeah.

I feel like people under-control things that are in their control.

Yeah.

Sometimes you do that. I mean, we've done that exercise together. I've done it with some of the CEOs I work with. I'm like, well, what actually is in your— And then it's like, oh, there's all these other things that because you're so focused on what's not in your control that you forget all these things that are actually in your control.

Right. Which obviously make a lot more sense to focus on. And I mean, there's this really simple exercise I learned from Conscious Leadership called sorting the files. I don't know if we talked about this before. Super simple idea. You have two file folders, you know, back in the day, like the manila file folders, or, you know, you could think on a computer and one isn't, one is entitled or labeled things I can control and the other is labeled things I can't control. And if you really do like the rigorous mental exercise of like what's in each, like what people think of you can't control, right? You know, even the outcome of your startup can't control really. Um, honestly, and sometimes even your own thoughts and your own feelings.

Yeah.

Think, you know, things I can't control. So if you really look, most people spend so much of their lives trying to control things they can't actually control.

Right.

And that's what takes us away from presence and, and below the line. And, and so that's really what's meant by, um, can you let go of sourcing control externally? Can you let go of thinking you need to control things outside of your control?

Yeah. It's sort of like the, it, in, I mean, for the Buddhists out there, it feels like the, you know, you're trying to source, like these desires basically lead to suffering.

Yes. That's, that's a good Um, the nuance there, cuz I think where, where that notion can get a little bit, um, misconstrued is our authentic wants, I actually think are very healthy and are driving us toward growth and development. So when, when, when I hear desire in the Buddhist context, I think of it as like attachment clinging. Sure, sure. Thinking I need this thing to be okay, or I need to control this thing that I can't control. And by the way, founders—

Can we sidebar on that for one quick second? Because this is something I talk with a lot of people about. And you, you know, you taught it to me or I've learned it from you. Can you talk about that nuance for one quick second? I'm reminded of you and I were in a forum once upon a time, and there was a dude in the forum who's like, when I get a Range Rover, like, that's going to be the moment that I'm like, I've made it, right? Like, he had this— I don't know if you remember who I'm talking about, but he had this visual image of of that. And then you said something, and do you remember what you said? Or do you remember? You said, I would remind you, you said, I, if you want a Range Rover, I want you to have a Range Rover. But if you need a Range Rover to feel like you're like, then you've gotten attached to that. And that's, and it's like that little nuance. It's really, really subtle.

Yeah, that's a good, I like the want versus need distinction. Um, another way I sometimes say it is if you think that you need that to— well, we could use to feel safe, to feel free, to feel worthy. Um, basically, if you think you, you, your well-being somehow depends on this condition, then you're, you're going to be attached to the condition, right? Right. And this is like the journey to suffering.

That's what Buddhism says, which leads to suffering, right?

And so the journey, the Buddhist journey, is to unconditionality. Right? Can I accept everything that is? But people, I think, sometimes overinterpret that as I should have no wants or preferences or vision, but I should just be like, let's use your word, you know, zenned out all the time and have no intention or purpose. I don't hold it that way. Like, I really love the both and of can I be, you know, at peace inside, not wishing anything was different. And still honor and follow my authentic preferences.

Right.

And it is really subtle because the moment they arise, like I'll just use myself. Like I've had, I have this want to impact more people. Like, um, you know, you and others have been very gracious that Dave, you seem to have a, you know, really transformative impact on people's lives. Like it wouldn't it be nice if more people knew what was available to them, right? Just if more people knew that I existed, that I had these courses or whatever, you know, and they could avail themselves of them if they want to. And it's really easy for me to slip from like, oh, I just want that. Like, that's, that feels exciting. That feels like I'm living fully. Like I, I just want it to like attachment, like, oh, why don't I, like, I need to have that. I'm not living fully. I'm not fulfilling my potential. If I don't impact more people? What if I only impact 20, 30 people a year? That's right. It's so easy to slip into like, oh, it's not enough, or it, it means something.

Um, well, I, I'll, I'll remind you of two things. One, you've impacted me, and I've impacted lots of people. So one way or another, you're impacting a lot of people. Just remember that. That's me heroing you. Two, um, this is like a really, really important nuance that I think a lot of people struggle with, including myself, including you. And I remember you had me practice once. Like, I like meditated and then you're like, can you notice when it's like— I think we said, called them an impulse versus a compulsion.

Yes.

And just for people listening, if they want to try an activity, it was like quiet your brain down. And when is it like, oh, like I'm being pulled that way or like I want to do that versus like something in my head is saying you should go do that. Why don't you have enough money?

Why?

And it should—

you should do it just to tune in.

Because I think when people hear this, including myself, when I first heard it, I was like, dude, what are you talking like? This is— this is too hard. And I think it actually, like anything, it takes a lot of practice to tune in to what is the thing that, to your point, once you get quiet, it's impossible actually to be zenned out all the time, right? Or nearly impossible. Maybe some people, that's what they're meant to do. But most people, you quiet down, they're like, oh, like, I want to— I want to go call my parents and tell them I love them. Or like, there's something that occurs to me to do. Versus the like some other thing. And I think I'm just calling that out because it's, it's, yeah, the should, and it's a very, very fine line. Um, and sorry, one other thing I want to, I want to mention around this because it's so nuanced is I found this for myself. You just mentioned it for yourself. Often the, the most challenging is the, is the thing that I think I'm like meant to do or want, like the, the, and I like turn, turn that into a should. So, it's not even like— we're not talking about like you wake up and you go, I should start a nonprofit, or no, I should start a big business. Nobody has that conflict, or very few that I know. The people, it could be, I want to start a nonprofit. I'm called to help feed America. And then you're like, why isn't my nonprofit bigger? Or my nonprofit should be— and so, I think that oftentimes, it's the same issue that someone gets— they can relate to from soul versus ego, or above the line, below the line. And I think that makes it really hard. In different moments, relate to it in different ways.

Funny enough, nonprofit people and activists can be the most below the line because it's totally like, um, basically it just starts with the premise the world is not the way it should be, right? Which is by definition you're not present if you think the world isn't. So if you're like, oh my God, these people need to be fed, right? Like, it's bad, this is a problem, and then it's basically a bit—

well, in that book No Bad Parts, he does coaching with a bunch of activists because he's obviously like, he's left, you can tell he's left-leaning, and he like But he's like trying to tell them like, and they're all mad because someone, another example in the book is like somebody, I think his dad died or he got bullied, but like there was some issue that took place when he was very young that made him want to like be righteous in the world. And then that limits people's effectiveness or it's off-putting.

But which, I mean, to your point, there's so much nuance here because we can appreciate so deeply the passion of someone who wants to stand for a world with no hunger. And we wanna honor that and how subtly distinct that is, but importantly distinct that is from this below the line. Like there shouldn't be hunger in the world and I have to stop it, right? Is like this compulsion versus this impulse to like, I feel called to create a world where no child starves. And there's, it's a, a different feeling. So to your point, it literally feels different. An impulse, um, for me at least feels much lighter. And a compulsion has constriction attached to it. So am I open or am I constricting?

Or there's— it's— it feels like something's not right in the moment versus the, like, the energy of, of what could be.

Yeah. What one of my favorite, um, Jim Deathmer quotes is, anytime you're experiencing something as serious, you're making it mean something that it doesn't mean. And usually what you're making it mean is you're making it a proxy for your sense of security, control, or approval. Right. Um, and so I think that's, you know, I like the connection there. Like the more, the less that you're sourcing your sense of security, control, and approval externally, the more you can experience play. 'Cause that's a huge, a lot of founders I work with, they're like, it doesn't feel like play. It doesn't even feel like it could feel like play. Like this is hard. This is serious. It's because they're still sourcing their sense of usually security and approval, maybe freedom too. With like whether the startup succeeds, which leads to attachment, which makes the whole thing. Yeah.

And the most extreme example most people can relate to is you may have something you can't talk about in your family or with like some, because it's so serious that it can't even be mentioned versus something you can play and joke around. Like if you can't joke around with someone about it, then immediately it's like, it shows you there's—

you're definitely making it personal or making it mean something. Yeah.

All right, let's close out. So back to the Sedona Method.

Sedona Method. Okay. Wait, sorry. Now I wanna slip in one more. Another of my favorite coaches, Joe Hudson, he, he, one of the things he taught me is, um, can you enjoy the wanting?

Hmm.

And I really like, to me, that's a good test for if I'm, um, if it's an impulse, I can enjoy the want, like, can I enjoy wanting to impact more people? If it's a compulsion, it's not, I don't enjoy the wanting. The wanting feels like a problem.

Right?

It's like, ah, I got, I need to have this.

Okay.

So back to the Sedona Method. So in some way, what I think, um, the Sedona Method and Hale Dwoskin, who's, who's the head of it, is really doing is pointing us to a deeper inquiry and connection to like our true self without making it wrong or bad that we're human and have like these ego patterns. So I think the best way I can share it and connect it with this Commitment 11 is maybe just to walk you and listeners through one of my favorite of his practices. I hope that's allowed. So, you know, I'd say close your eyes if that's comfortable and see if you can find in yourself the one who wants security. So, because we don't need to make that wrong, we're human beings and we have this part of ourself that wants security. So first, just can you find the one that wants security, that seeks safety outside yourself? And then just see, can you just welcome the one who wants security? Like, don't go making that wrong or bad. What could you welcome? The part of you that wants security. We're all human, we all have that part. And then just for now, could you relax as the one who's beyond wanting security? Just for now, could you relax as the one that's beyond wanting security? And then we go to control. So Connect with the part of you that wants control, that wants to control how life goes, wants to control your life, wants to control the future. If you're a founder, wants to control your startup, wants to control other people. Only I could just control everyone and everything around me. It would all be great. Just find in you the one that wants control, and could you just welcome The one that wants control. Welcome that part of you. Don't make it wrong. And then just for now, could you relax as the one that's beyond wanting control? Just for now, could you relax as the one that's beyond wanting control, that doesn't need to control anything outside of you or even inside of you? And notice what you notice. And then we'll go to approval. So can you locate the part of you that wants approval, really wants people to think certain things about you, think well of you? Just find the part of you that wants approval. And could you welcome that part of you that wants approval? And then just for now, could you relax as the one that's beyond wanting approval? As no need for approval. Just for now, could you relax as the one that's beyond wanting approval? Okay. So if we, if we want to unpack that a little bit.

Yeah. One of the reasons I love it is its simplicity. And I think just for people listening, I think that's, you know, Dave did the one version. I think a version we've also done is like find a specific issue. Like I really want my, you know, I really want this fundraising round to go well, or I really want. I want my wife to be more present around me and offer whatever that issue, because they— I think they all, they all, they all come back to one of those three or multiple of them. And then going, oh, the one in me who wants the approval of my wife or to control my wife, the— get off her phone and like, let me accept that. Yes, we've talked about this in the past, but it's— that has been one of the most counterintuitive things to like all this work for me is like Once I find an issue, like, oh, my wife is on her phone too much. It bothers me. I'm like, don't feel that way. Like, no. And like, you shouldn't feel that way, Jesse. And even subtly, I notice like I still do it around different things and yeah, like, I don't know, the acceptance part of it is, uh, it's always still an interesting one.

So what's coming up for me is this distinction between self-improvement and self-discovery.. And I mean, you heard in that, like in the Sedona Method, and this is just one of many, many, many, many Sedona Method practices, just to be clear, but it's all around this, this sort of deep welcoming. And, um, for some people, this, you know, could you relax as the one that's beyond wanting security? I mean, it's weird language a little bit. And if you try to like figure out with your mind, like, wait, what, what, what, what's that? You know, you get, you sort of get trapped in like a whirlpool. Like it's, um, so it is a little bit of an invitation to connect with the, the one that's beyond the mind. Um, and in some way it's like a spiritual practice in the sense of like it takes you beyond your identity. And that, I think that's the beauty of the work and the depth of the Sedona Method. It's a really It's like a practical way to connect with experientially, like, what's there when I let go of wanting, you know, security or control or approval. And it's like the identity is the, is the kind of construct that we think we are that is in the game of trying to get safety and control and approval. And so when you let go of that, it's like you sort of let go of your identity and then relax back into some other essential self that's beyond identity. Um, you know, there's a wonderful teacher named Loch Kelly who says, um, like, who are you if you don't have any problems? Or, or actually, more precisely, I think what he says is, if there are no problems, what's here now?

Right?

So they're all kind of pointing to a similar thing. And then, um, one of the things I think is important What you're pointing to is basic acceptance, right? Because it's like, well, why, why do I want to welcome the part of me that wants security, Dave? You know, didn't we just say that like, that's a fool's errand and that game doesn't work? Um, so I'd say a few things. One, like what we resist persists. So just practically, if you're like, try to make that wrong and fight it, it just gets stronger. And so pragmatically, like just accepting and welcoming whatever you want to shift. Is a more effective way to shift it, right, than judging it and trying to improve it and make it wrong, right? Anytime we're judging ourselves and we're improving from this place of like, I'm not how I should be, it makes the whole thing less efficient and slower.

I've also— I, in my head, having done all this for so many years with you and now all the other modalities and stuff I've tried, like, I almost look at it as like there's a gear And it like there's a head gear and a heart gear. And it literally, because you have to accept the— this part of yourself, the mind cannot do it. The mind cannot love the one who might be, you know, insecure, angry at their— like, or the mind can't do it. The mind is the thing that's going to come in and it's going to go, don't do that, or that's bad, or— and so like keeps the ego in that cycle versus The only thing that can actually show loving and acceptance is your heart, or is your soul, is your— is the— is the one beyond the personality. It's like, I'm like, oh, so if you can't— like, anyway, that's— it's— for me, it's just been an interesting construct of like that it's a different part of me that gets activated when I do that, and then that part then sort of thaws, you know, thaws out.

Yeah, what's coming up for me is like the metaphor of the body. Like, like, we have cells And you know, those cells together make, I'll just, I'll just make this really simple, make organs. And then those organs together make the body. Let's just take those 3 levels.

Right.

Um, and the body is more expansive than, but includes the organs and the cells. Right. So like the, um, the organs may be unto themselves, like can't do what the body does. Um, but if the body's like, those organs are, are insufficient and bad— this isn't the best metaphor, but I think you'll get, you'll get it. Um, like, you know, obviously the body includes the organs. So in a similar way, it's like our essential self is the most expansive version of self versus like the identity is like a limited perspective. So the essential self, it's not a problem that there's an identity that seeks approval and control and, um, security so that like the essential self can actually just welcome whatever's occurring because it's more expansive than and doesn't need that to be different. And so if you're fighting it, it's really the ego fighting itself, right? Right. It's like your identity saying I should have a different identity than the one I have now versus relaxing into the more essential self. It's like, oh, I know this. And, and you can, you can essentially see through the pattern and no longer be at the effect of it once you see it. But it requires you to be in a more expansive position to see it. 'Cause if you're in it, you can't see it.

Or to almost feel it. Like the word feel it.

Or feel it. Yeah. Sense it might be a more accurate. Yeah.

All right. Well, this was fun.

I enjoyed it.

Nona Method. There's a website and they have a thing and a cool course and stuff if people want to go deeper.

Lots of courses. Yeah. Uh, we'll put it in the show notes and, uh, recommend exploring it if it intrigues you.

Until next time. Thanks, Dave Kashen. Thank you.