Why You Unknowingly Resist Love, Joy, and Fulfillment

Jesse, you got some kind of secret story that you were saving up. You didn't want me to know before the recording. What's going on?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's actually, it was one of the most powerful experiences of my life. And, and Dave was there, uh, facilitating it, you know, in, in 2018, I think it was 2018, my exec team rented a really nice house at Half Moon Bay. You know, we, uh, it was a, it was a group that had worked together for a decent amount of time. We had like, we thought the company was gonna get acquired and then it didn't. And we were kind of rebuilding, like we were picking up all these pieces and we got this really cool house and, and, you know, did a bunch of leadership training and stuff. And we sat down for dinner that evening and it was like, it was at this like baller house. So it was like this really fancy dining table and there was good meals all the way around. And Dave and this other coach, Kat, they were like looking at us and they were like, okay, we're gonna do this thing, guys. Um, I want you to go around the table and I want you to ask for acknowledgement. And everyone was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And it was super awkward. And, and we were like, and then, you know, he like demonstrated as Dave was, he's a great teacher. And he, he's like, it needs to be specific and it needs to be to a person. So it's not just like, hey, please acknowledge me for being, for having a nice turban. Like that's, it, it's like, Dave, I want you to acknowledge me for learning how to ski this year.

And then Dave would say, Jesse, I acknowledge you for your courage and persistence in learning how to ski this year.

And I'd say, okay, thanks. And then we'd go to the next person and then they would ask for an acknowledgement. And like, you know, the team was all nice people, but like no one's ever done this before and it was so awkward. I'm talking like, like, like you rather would hear a chalkboard screeching. That's how awkward it was. And it just sounds like, uh, uh, John, could you please acknowledge me? And you know, and, and the, the higher the leader, the more, more actually uncomfortable it was because like a senior leader at, like for me to ask people in my team to acknowledge me, I was like, this is weird, right? I'm their boss. I'm like paying their, like, I'm not supposed to need or want that. Yeah. Yeah. And and we made it slowly. I mean, 30 minutes in the first round, right? It was painful. And I'm like, Dave's like, stop this, like, whatever. And so we keep going and the second round it's like 10 minutes. So people start getting a little more comfortable. And somewhere through the second round, rather than asking for acknowledgement, when people came, they say, oh, I wanna ask for it, but you know, before I do that, actually, John, I really wanna acknowledge you for running the New York office. Like, you're doing a fantastic job. And it's great to see X, Y, and Z. And then, you know, Katarina says to Roshni, like, oh, you're a mom. You just had a baby and you're also the CFO of the company. Like, that's really impressive. And I think about that a lot. I've never shared that with you. Now all of a sudden, like, and I'm getting chills telling this story right now, this, it starts to go around the table, popcorn around the table. It's 2 hours. Everybody's crying and everyone is, everyone stopped asking for acknowledgements and instead giving each other acknowledgements that they've never said to each other after many, many years of working together. And it was one of the most powerful things. And like, I went home to my wife, right? And I'm like, I acknowledge you for this. I acknowledge you. And she starts crying. She's like, oh my God, you've like been— we know each other forever. I've never— you've never said any of those things to me. And it was just— and there was appreciations and acknowledgments, but it was— everybody walked away feeling seen and felt in a way that had never happened. And I think I looked at Dave, and oftentimes when he does these things, I'm like, oh, you knew that was gonna happen. He's like, yeah, that's called a acknowledgement party and you start by asking for it, but then very quickly everyone turns and starts giving it. And it was just a, it was just a beautiful moment, um, that I, that I like. It was one of the most powerful shifts for me as a person to see and feel that.

You know what? I like that. And in my head I'm thinking, I'd like to do that around the dinner table tonight with the family, but I'm so awkward about bringing up techniques at dinner. One of the things that I liked about you, Jesse, was that in one of our meetings, you said, "I'm trying to bring my practice into meetings." And you said, "We're gonna close our eyes right now, and we're going to breathe," or something. And I'm going, "I gotta close my eyes on camera, and he's gonna look at me close. I guess he's gonna have his eyes closed. I don't wanna do it." I go, "Oh, I really like this. It is taking a breath, and is— I like that he's doing this," 'cause I didn't sign up for Jesse to just be another dude. I signed up for, like, an experience. Now I'm getting an experience. And freaking A, I still have a barrier to bring it into life without making it feel awkward. And I guess you're saying it feels awkward and you just have to roll with it. Is that it, Dave?

Yes, it is, Andrew. I, uh, had a few thoughts. One is, yeah, a lot of clients will say things like, well, that it just doesn't feel authentic, right? Maybe like a practice or an exercise like that, or you know, of a client and I'm like, well, the team really needs you to be a cheerleader right now. And maybe it's like a technical engineer, you know, founder. And they're like, well, that's not authentic for me. And I'm like, well, bullshit. It's just not comfortable. And I think a lot of us hide behind authenticity. It's interesting. You know, we wanna talk about authenticity. I think that there's an interesting distinction here between like who I've always been and what feels safe and familiar. Versus being your full whole self and, and sort of that behavioral flexibility to just trying new ways of being, trying new things and being willing to be uncomfortable. Right. I mean, it's like the biggest cliché in the world, right? If we, you know, if we just do what's comfortable, we don't grow, right? By definition, growth is what happens outside of your comfort zone. So I think, yeah, one aspect here that's really important to recognize is Like we're not going to grow and expand ourselves and our connections by just staying comfortable. So I appreciate the recognition that like, yeah, it's not, it's awkward. And that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It's just like, oh, it's, it feels awkward, right? You feel scared. You feel worried. And what I, what I think is also important to point out is like, this is maybe the most uncomfortable stuff there is. Like, we tend to think like, oh, I really don't want to feel fear and sadness and anger. And actually, I think human beings are more scared of joy, love, and intimacy than they are of fear, sadness, and anger. Yeah. And I, like, I think it's really important to recognize what a limitation that is. It's like, who doesn't want to feel appreciated and acknowledged and loved, and yet we're so stingy with our love and appreciation.

My wife sent me this Instagram post the other day. My therapist told me this and it changed my life. You're not healing to be able to handle trauma, pain, anxiety, and depression. You're used to those. You're healing to be able to handle joy and accept happiness back into your life. And I think it's, it's such a, to be able to actually be with it and feel it. And Andrew, you're so uncomfortable with it. When I say positive things to you, we looked at our P&L yesterday and the fucking first year we were super profitable, Bootstrap Giants, and you shifted in your seat when I was like, this is awesome. This is a good high margin business. Like you just don't want to be there.

I wanted to convince you that you were missing the future. You're missing the problems.

Yeah. And it's just comfortable. I mean, people say that we get addicted to our trauma, are addicted to our trauma. Maybe too strong of a word, but addicted to our not, not good enough.

Familiar suffering.

Yeah. Familiar suffering. I, in the spirit, by the way, Andrew, I want you to ask me and Dave for some acknowledgement. Ask us to acknowledge you for something specifically, please.

Uh, okay. So I did notice a change in the way that I am with both of you since I've been working with both of you. Like Dave and I had such a great conversation at your birthday party. We were just drinking and I, I let let myself go a little more with the drinking because I was in such a good mood and I went way far, but I was myself and it felt good. And with you, Jesse, I remember saying, no, this is not what we need to do. And like being as directive and as like clear and as excited and I don't know, visionary as I like to be. And I think with both of you, I'm a lot less of that and I'm coming in a lot more with problems, frailties, and things that need to be improved. And I don't want that to be the way that I approach every conversation.

You're dancing around, Andrew. Stop dancing.

So what I'm saying is, what I'm looking for is acknowledgments of the old part or the part that's there that is here today that maybe I'm not noticing. What, like, where are this, like—

Here, let's try it. Dave, why don't you model it for him? Towards me.

Oh, ask or ask?

Wait, Dave, was I doing it wrong? I felt like I was doing it well.

I was saying, why I want this, why I want— you're just avoiding it.

Um, we want to give you love, Andrew. We want to appreciate whatever you want to be appreciated for. Um, so I'll do both. Uh, first, Andrew, I appreciate you for your vulnerability. In sharing with me and with Jesse the things that you're not feeling great about and is not your polished, perfect self.

That's the part that I'm saying I don't want to spend any more time on that I lead with. But is— are you, are you noticing that and you're intentionally doing that?

Pause for a second. Um, you're doing what— so I, I, I love you. I so appreciate how you're modeling most— how most people relate to acknowledgement and appreciation like this.

Nope.

Not letting it be.

Not that one. Oh, okay.

Just, I hear you that there's ways you want to grow, right? I understand. Um, and most people, and I think you might be included in this, um, and, and so me and I'm sure Jesse at times, but we're working on it, um, are not open to receiving. And that's, that may actually be the biggest like blind spot for most people. It's You know, I mean, thought that came up, like, for, like, for most of my life, I felt like my dad didn't love me unconditionally, you know, and didn't, like, couldn't really feel his love, felt more like judgment until I finally one day realized, like, I wasn't letting it in. Like, it wasn't, it didn't come in the exact form that I thought it should or wanted it, but ultimately I just wasn't receiving it. And like, it was one of the biggest breakthrough moments in my life, most healing moments of my life, when I literally just opened up to receive it and I felt it for the first time. So it wasn't like an idea. I like felt his love and realized for so much of my life I just, I was somehow protecting myself and just blocking it. Um, so, you know, that's a, a really, I think, significant version of it. But in all these little ways, we're just not open to receiving the appreciation.

I've been actually saying, uh, in our Slack that we need to go more specific. Like, I like Jesse's specificity around the, the, uh, team meeting. Can you say what your dad said that you weren't catching? Like, what were some of the specific things that he had said that you didn't pick up on for some reason?

I love you.

Oh, he would say that. And you're saying I didn't even acknowledge and notice that he was saying, I love you.

It's not that I didn't notice. It just felt like, yeah, he's saying it, but he's not doing— he's not— he gets off the phone quickly with me when we talk. He hasn't made an effort to come spend time with me. We haven't spent that much time alone. Or when I was a kid, he didn't play with me. He didn't show emotions. He didn't listen, like all the ways that my mind said, oh, this is how love is supposed to look. Right? Like he wasn't, I guess, soft and squishy and, you know, emotionally expressive, right? And, you know, different people are different. I'll tell you what he actually said to me that, that sort of pierced it. It was after I did the 7-day retreat. He was— I told him, I was like, Dad, this is why, you know, I had this story for most of my life that you didn't love me unconditionally, that like I had to be be a certain way. I had to be successful. I had to be polite. I had to, you know, meet some kind of ideal expectation in order for you to love me. And, you know, in some way I drove myself, you know, and pushed myself to achieve so that I could become worthy of your love. I told him this. He's like, Dave, he's like, you know how you feel about Ben and Brody, or my two boys? It's like, that's how I feel about you. And that just like cracked it for me. And again, I just like opened up and let it in and felt it in some ways for the first time.

Okay.

And that again, I, I want to like, I think we're doing this every day with all the people in our lives in tiny ways.

Yeah.

I'm giving you like maybe the most extreme example for me. And yeah, I just really want people to reflect on like, all the love that's around you that you're not receiving. And so just, Andrew, as I said, you know, man, I really acknowledge and appreciate your vulnerability. Like, if you're really honest with yourself, did you let that in? Did you feel my love and appreciation for you and your vulnerability?

No, because I didn't want it. I was in my head angry that you didn't listen to what I wanted and that you are doubling down down on this thing that I'm trying to avoid lately. Um, no, Jesse's smiling. Jesse, you noticed that I did that immediately?

Yeah, well, because, because you making that wrong somehow, I think. And, and, but it's all— they're all, as Dave said, they're all just ways we try to avoid feeling love and letting it in and truly letting it in. Um, Which I think like, I'm, I'm, I'm still, I want to stay on this for one minute, which is, all right, Dave, now you can demonstrate the other one. And then Andrew, you gotta pay attention.

You want me to ask for acknowledgement?

To me. Yeah.

Um, Jesse, I would like you to acknowledge me for the difference I've made in your life.

Dave, since the time I met you in 2018, my life, my inner experience, my louder experience has increased, improved by 10x. And, and there's been things that I would've never dreamed possible. My relationship with my dad, my marriage, my business success combined with my not being stressed out that, um, that I, I, I experience every day because of because of your love, because of all the things you've taught me and shown me. I acknowledge for the difference you've made in my life.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you. What, one quick question, Dave, I always have this. What's the difference between appreciation and acknowledgement?

Hmm.

I have a version in my head, but I'm curious what you're gonna say.

I don't have a clear distinction in my mind. Um, appreciation feels somehow like a little bit warmer, even like a little bit more.

Um, I always thought appreciation is something like you did for me. Like, I appreciate you, whatever, you know, taking the garbage out. And acknowledgement is just something you're doing in your life that doesn't necessarily have to do with me. Like, like to my wife, like, I appreciate you did, you did the dishes. Thank you. Like, it's like a thank you versus an acknowledgement is, wow, I really acknowledge you for Working on, you know, your book, that thing seems really cool. I made that up. I don't know if that's true or not.

I see why those feel like more appropriate in those two settings. Um, what's coming to my mind is just, just, I would play with both and see how they feel different. And, you know, um, I think to me, the bigger lesson is like really look at how stingy we are with acknowledging and appreciating each other. I don't— and so I don't care which one you do. Um, and I think it's to avoid intimacy. Like, there's just— it's like, it's really intimate to appreciate someone that much. And I also think it's worth maybe, um, looking at the distinction between, uh, let's say, appreciating you for some way that you are, um, versus something that you did. And, and both are valuable. I find when I appreciate you for some way that you are, it feels maybe even deeper and more, um, like it allows you to see yourself more clearly and fully. Like, most of us have this really negative bias, you know, filter, inner voice that like sees us as less than we are. And so it's gonna be really powerful when someone else is like, wow, I appreciate you for how loving and confident and kind and passionate and powerful you are, right? What? Like, you— like, those are the ways I wish I was. You see that in me? And it's like, the way we see each other can allow us to rise our own sense of self to meet you know, that appreciation and that the way that others see us. I think one of the most powerful experiences you can have is to feel fully seen, like, and loved at the same time. And I think most people are just like terrified to feel fully seen because they think they won't be loved because there's all this shame and all these stories of the, oh, vulnerable, that's bad. Polished visionary, that's good, Andrew. So I just want you to see the polished visionary, and I just want to focus on that, and let's hide away the vulnerable part where I don't know what I'm doing or I have negative doubt or thoughts. And I think to be fully revealed in all of you and loved at the same time is deeply healing. I just, you know, we, I just came off of this, um, the first annual Sun Valley Founders Retreat last Wednesday through Sunday. It was extraordinary. Um, we had a dozen founders fly into Sun Valley and, and did like deep inner work and skied and played together. And we ended on Saturday night with 5 hours of appreciations.

With 5 hours, all of you founders were sitting around and appreciating each other? Yes. Can you say who was there? No.

No.

You know what's the problem? I can say, like, you can't mention people's names and I'm trying to get everyone to know what a baller you are, partially so that they like respect this podcast more, partially so they appreciate me more.

Founders of, um, uh, companies that have sold for, uh, more than a billion dollars, um, or are worth upwards of $1 or $2 or more billion. Many founders who've built companies of hundreds of millions of dollars, multi-time founders, like, yeah, names that you would know. These were not like anomalous random sort of—

Why can't I mention their names? Like, why can't you mention their names? Is this some kind of agreement you made?

By default, I tend to keep my clients confidential unless Like, it's clear that, um, I just would never want to reveal if someone didn't want that known.

Um, I would like to be able to do that. Would you ask, would you say, Andrew's being a pain in my ass, he keeps asking me to find— and good. All right, because I don't even say it in private. Like, if I happen to have heard you mention somebody, I won't say it in private, but I do think in private I should. All right, so you're sitting 5 of 5 hours, you're all sitting around and acknowledging each other and And then what comes out of that? Why does it have to be 5 hours? Why not 4? Why not just do half hour like Jesse said?

Nobody wanted to stop. I mean, we were all in some ways exhausted after like days of like deep gut heart-wrenching, like hearts cracked open, emotional, intense, and skiing. And I think it's like a testament to just how powerful an experience that is and how hungry we are for it. Like the level of intimacy and love that was flowing in the group was just extraordinary. And I think people, I mean, there were lots of tears, like people were feeling seen in a way they had maybe never felt seen.

I, dude, I gotta do this. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I shouldn't be interrupting this. I'm gonna text one person in my life, one person from work to create this experience. Can we do this one-on-one? Will you show me how to introduce this without sounding like a douche? I would like to do this. And does it work one-on-one? Can I just reach out to one person who I work with and say, listen, we need to do some— I need to acknowledge you. I've been feeling really good about the way we're working together. I'd like to do this. Can we do that for 5 minutes? Not 5 hours.

I would even go for 10 if you feel like that would work. Andrew, don't you get a text from me usually once a week?

I do. I do get that. I feel like I need— first of all, I do, and I still have not lived up to doing it. More like you've, you've challenged me to do this to people who are not you. And by the way, I've asked you to lower your mic, but I think you should raise it a little more so we can hear it or move it closer. But you have challenged me to do that. I have not done it consistently. I don't know how to find the time to do it. I would like though to, in addition to doing more of that, to do this in, in a meeting and to push my, not push myself, but to really just start it out right now by saying to, I'm gonna text my wife and go, We've been doing this staring into each other's eyes exercise that a therapist suggested. It's nice.

Yeah.

I've got a good story for you about that. But also, I'd like to do this for 10 minutes or 5 minutes, and then I want to do the same thing for someone at work. I would like to do it with Nak, but Nak's getting ready to have a baby, so this is probably not the week to do it with them, but maybe it is.

Why are you making all these rules about it, Andrew? Like, send your wife a text and say, I really— I think you're an amazing mother, and I appreciate how much you do for our family.

I'd like to do more than that. Like, can we do—

but would you just— I wanna do that, dude. Just do that right now.

Or yes, and—

all right. Okay.

My favorite construction, just to be— if you want a little prescription— is, I appreciate you for— it's a little more direct, vulnerable. You don't have to. You just say, I appreciate.

Is it a context for a second? I've been talking to Dave and Jesse, and they're helping me realize that I appreciate you for— or do I just go, I appreciate you for— all—

like, that's all. By the way, it's a good example is I think, I mean, do whatever you want, but I think it's just another way you're blocking intimacy because it's scary. You gotta give her context for why you're about to say something to her.

Otherwise, heaven forbid, we should just out of nowhere let someone know how much we appreciate them.

She may think something weird is going on if you just say, I appreciate you for being a wonderful mother to our children. No, I gotta give her—

The freakiest thing is having Jesse see me like he's reading my mind or reading something underneath that I— I sense that it's right, but it's like I don't even want to acknowledge it. And to sit still while we're in a conversation without going, like, what the hell's going on here? What? You know? Uh, yeah, you're totally right. I am trying to, to do that. I'm a little embarrassed now.

I'd invite you to really reflect on, like, what's the feeling that you're not wanting to feel here.

It's like you think about just saying to your wife, oh honey, I, I don't want to be another guy who took some kind of lesson, who took, who read a book, who talked to a coach, does a change, and then does it, hits and runs, and then doesn't come back to it, and, and then comes back with another. I would really like to be the kind of person who goes, I'm experimenting, this is it, give me permission to not repeat this, and then allow myself to keep repeating. That's, that's That's part of it. And then also, like Jesse said, there is some kind of intimacy I'm trying to escape from, from here to just like come in with an intimate moment. I feel like I need to justify and say, I'm not the intimate type, but this is a business meeting I came out of with this idea.

Well, I do that. I so appreciate your presence here, Andrew, because you're squirming. It like, at least the thought I have is so familiar to probably most people listening. They'd be having the exact same reaction, like what these woo-woo guys are saying, like, go tell everyone you, you know, you appreciate them. And I just want to acknowledge it does— it feels scary. And I heard you say too that it almost feels scary to like set the bar that high, like, oh, now what if she starts to expect me to appreciate her and then she's disappointed? And I think that's so common, just like how much we wanna manage and control and prevent disappointment or other people's experience. And like, they're all ways that we just get in the way of letting love flow.

All right. I did it. It feels really good.

Let me say one other thing about appreciation as a business tool, which you'll, I think you'll appreciate. Um, There's this cliché statement, what you appreciate appreciates. And I have found it to be true, right? If you say to someone, oh, I, you know, wow, I so appreciate how you went above and beyond on that, you know, assignment and you really, you know, checked all your work and I see how detail-oriented you were. I so appreciate you for how you, you know, step up to help other people. Like what's naturally gonna happen is they're gonna do more of that.

There was, there's some famous thing, by the way, Dave, I think you, somebody told me this, but there was some coach, basketball coach who he showed, he showed videos of what the players are doing when they were making mistakes. And like they got, they got no better as a team and maybe got a little worse. Then he showed them both what they did well as well as what they didn't do well. And they kind of didn't go. And then all he did was start to highlight all the things they did well, and the team got markedly better, like significantly better at, at basketball.

I think that, I love that example, Jesse. I think that's a huge unlock for leaders cuz, because we're human and our minds tend toward all the negative stuff, all the what's wrong, what's not good enough. So, so we as leaders do that. Our team members are all doing that. And so everyone's missing all the good stuff. And if you can actually build a culture where you're focusing on what's going well, appreciating it, one, you'll feel just more joy, more love, more goodness, more positivity. And two, you'll actually improve performance. And to your point, Jesse, maybe more than even giving all the constructive feedback and finding all the places where people aren't doing it great. Again, I don't want to step over candor. I think it's important for people to be real with each other and give feedback., and it's maybe just as, if not more, to give the positive feedback, right? That's, and again, we, we tend to be more, more scared, more uncomfortable being like, wow, I so appreciate you for XYZ. And I've had people, I've had clients tell me like they still remember 11 years ago when their boss sat them down and told them how much they appreciated them. In fact, I still remember I had a business school professor. Who I really respected and said, Dave, I really appreciate like your mix of head and heart. I mean, it was, oh, was that 2005? I, to this day, I remember that moment.

Yeah.

Because those moments of just like raw appreciation are so rare.

Well, and I, and I think it's interesting, the leaders, I think, or it's even, you're saying that people are uncomfortable or we tend to focus on negative things. I think there's a lot of leaders out there who actually look at it as a strategy. I'm going to keep you jumping through hoops. I'm never going to, I'm never going to let you know that you're doing it. Andrew, you do that to yourself. I see you do it all the time is I'm never gonna let myself feel like what I'm doing is good enough because that's the thing that's gonna keep me going. And as long as I keep—

so what's the problem with that?

I mean, how's your experience with it?

All right. What I'm recognizing recently is that my per— my experience is it's not a fun way to work with someone who's constantly like in, ah, this, this sucks mode. When I'm on fire and everything feels great, I enjoy it more. I, like bring out more of my charisma or my, like, my exciting personality that then other people want to be around. That's the part that I'm really working on changing.

Yeah. I think if, if you, if, if you're fine, like, I mean, I've told people this, like, if you're fine with how you go, it goes, then don't worry about it. Then do your thing. But if you're not enjoying your experience, or like the more common thing is someone acts like that for 10 years thinking that once they make money, then their life's gonna be great. They sell their company, let's say in a successful scenario, and they sell it, they make money and they're like, oh my God, I'm, grossly unhappy right now because I've, my entire life I've basically forcibly kept myself unhappy cuz I thought that's what I, the formula was here. And, and now I, you can't just, nobody wakes up and just starts being happy all of a sudden after forcing themselves to be unhappy for forever.

I, I have a thought coming up around entitlement. I just wanna name, which is, uh, I think if we're really honest, most of us feel entitled. To lots of things, like entitled to all the things, entitled to being good at your job, entitled to having the results you want. And it really gets in the way of appreciation. So every now and then I'll do this practice, like, I'll just think about, like, I am entitled to nothing. Nothing, right? Like, I shouldn't even be here, right? The statistical improbability of me being alive, right? I mean, it's like round to zero, the probability. So, like, I'm not entitled to having any experience at all. And if I can start with that ground of, like, zero, suddenly what naturally wells up is just, like, you know, a ton of appreciation for being alive, for breathing air, for having running water, for friendship, for getting to do work that I love, for a loving family. Like, And I think most of us start the other way. We like imagine the absolute ideal version of our life, feel entitled to it, and then get frustrated and disappointed the moment our life doesn't match that. Or of another person, right? Of your wife. Oh, this is exactly how I expect her to be, blah, blah, blah. So the moment she doesn't meet your mind's ideal, it's like you're disappointed and frustrated instead of just like appreciating that she's even spending one moment with you.

But isn't that that inner thermostat that you two have introduced to me where if I expect that, that she has to be up here and the people I work with have to be up here, then they're gonna naturally rise to that. I'm gonna keep setting that expectation and then we get the most out of everybody. And yeah, it means we're frustrated when we're not where we wanna be, but we're, that's our way of driving towards it.

There's an important distinction here between, um, seeing the good in others, right? Like relating to people as their best, looking for the good versus like expecting or feeling entitled for them to be a certain way. And, you know, part of the distinction is like who they are now versus the future. So what generally happens is we We're most of the time, we're not like, oh my God, I'm imagining this like amazing, you know, future of who you're going to become. And we're like, I wish you were already there now.

Right?

Like, so I think that's a bit of a trap where you could think like, I'm doing them a service by imagining their ideal self and then criticizing them for all the ways they're not yet there, which is, by the way, a thing we totally do to ourselves as well. Versus like, I believe in you, I think you can be, you know, all these things in the future and support you to become them.

Yeah, there's an attachment thing here too, I think, Andrew, which is like, if you're attached to the outcome, it's, it's not exactly the same as the inner thermostat or the upper limit. Um, the upper limit is actually, it's the opposite. It's allowing yourself to be that happy or allowing kind of back to what we were talking about of like, you don't allow like we won't actually allow it versus the attachment of like, I should be, I should be this happy versus I am this happy already.

There's this phrase that I'm remembering from, um, I did a couple years of training in neuro-linguistic programming. And this phrase that the teacher said was, um, the, the conditions we learn to survive become the conditions upon which our continued survival depends.

Give me an example, like what?

So basically what that means is like our, our creature brain, right? Like our subconscious mind knows that everything that we've experienced up until now, all the sadness, anger, fear, dysfunctional relationships, all of that, we have survived. So it knows with 100% certainty we can survive this level of joy, but no more. And so that's a bit of the upper limit problem. It's like when we start to allow more love, more joy, more aliveness, more freedom, there's a part of our brain that's like, I actually don't know if this is survivable. Like, I don't know with certainty. And it's a little bit like your point, like, well, what, you know, it shows up in the like, don't I need my pain and my fear and my sense of lack and my not good enough in order to drive me to be better? Um, that's part of the upper limit. That's like, oh gosh, if it could, you know, if it's this joyful, like, is that even okay? Like, will I be okay feeling that much joy?

Yeah, there is some of that. Some of it feels a little superstitious. Like, in order to get here, I had all that. I want to get all the things in order to continue to make sure that they don't go away.

All right, Andrew, and then you gotta ask for some acknowledgement, dude. I, we're not ending this podcast until you do. Okay. No caveats.

Do I give you any direction for what type of acknowledgement or do I just say acknowledge me?

Yes.

Um, what do you really want to be acknowledged for?

For the areas where I am—

Name a specific person, ask for it.

Say you, Jesse. So, Jesse, acknowledge me. Well, this feels very weird. Feels very needy. And Dave knows I hate to feel shame. I hate to feel neediness. I hate to feel any of these lower feelings. All right, Jesse. I'm gonna look at you while I say this. Jesse, acknowledge me for the times when I am a confident leader.

Andrew. I want to acknowledge you for when you get everybody on the phone and get us all focused on some objective that needs to get accomplished. When you look at content and you level it up because of your, you have a really good eye for it and how much you care about winning. And all three of those things I think make you just an absolutely incredible leader.

Thanks.

How do you feel? Embarrassed. What else do you feel though? What's the, what do you feel embarrassed about?

I feel good.

What'd you feel first? That now I'm embarrassing you.

Um, that's not the best I could like be. That is, that is, this is what I'm being acknowledged for at this level. Like, wouldn't it be better if I could be acknowledged for doing even more? Even though I don't have like a thing in mind, it would be like, oh yeah, I'm not really doing enough. Why am I not being— why am I, uh, not doing more that he could have an even better example? What'd you feel?

That's part of the deflection. Yeah.

That— what'd you feel before that though? Just for a second.

I don't remember.

Did you ever feel like, oh wow, he's actually seeing me and that feels nice?

Yeah. I, the most I, I felt that when it was, well, you said that I wanna win. Because that is such an important part of my personality, even though I'm pretty laid back about it. Like, I'm trying not to suffocate it. But yeah, yeah, so that it was— that felt good.

The more of this work I've done, Andrew, the deeper and deeper you peel the onion, and there's lots of layers to it. There's things that happen in our brains without us knowing, so basic and automatic that it's like fucking crazy. Like, so, and I just pointing that out for you because I, I suspected part of you felt something good for a second, and then another part of you jumped in and said, no, no, no, I don't know. Why didn't he say better things?

Why?

And then the other party's, oh, I'm embarrassed now that that was the best he's like. So it's like you, you said embarrassed, but actually there was multiple things that went on in a very subconscious way, starting with a good thing. Right. Uh, and, and it's like, I mean, I've noticed the patterns in my mind that I, they're very, the self-awareness part of this, it, it, every time I think I'm self-aware, I find another layer where I'm like, oh, there's still something happening there. It's automatic that I didn't realize. Dave Kashen.

Andrew, I appreciate you for your deep curiosity. Like, I just, I just so feel the one in you, like, but what, like, really hungry to get to, like, truth. Dave Kashen, for what a gifted interviewer you are. Just like, you create this space for people to want to share. And I imagine, like, you're so able to empathize with the listeners, like, wait, wait, that's not clear, or I don't get that, or I don't believe that, and willing to sort of be that skeptic. And And I appreciate you for your heart. Like, I just feel what a loving human you are and how much you want to do well. Like, you're so— even all the things you're commenting on, it's like you were just so driven to be excellent and do well. And I appreciate you for all of that.

Thank you. How does that feel, Andrew?

Feels good.

What one funny aside is both of you guys have met my wife obviously and talked to her, and both of you got her talking for like very different— like when you came over, Andrew, you were just so curious that she was like, man, like this guy's just— and she like told you all this. She's like, man, I'm like so deep in. Dave, obviously in a different way, like we took a walk on my birthday and he just created this space and she just totally opened up. And it's just funny. I, I like, I don't know, something came through me just now appreciating both of you guys for that ability and, and like the personal impact it's had on my life and the person who's most important to me in the world.

Hmm. Thank you, Jesse.

I've been enjoying, by the way, the response to this. One thing that I've gotten from Jesse is that I, I didn't wanna do this because I didn't think we can get a big enough audience right off the bat. And I've been saying we should have these bigger names on because then people will come and watch for them and then they'll discover us and all that. And what I've been noticing is a lot of the conversations that I've had with our members, with potential members, have cited not just listening to this, but specific examples of something. And that, that is a really interesting thing that I keep thinking numbers, numbers, numbers, but boy, they're just like people who are just saying, I want to listen in on this conversation to understand this this mindset to understand these people has been really good. And truthfully, that is partially where this— the way this need to shift my personality, the way that I express it here, came from. Like, a lot of them were saying, Andrew, you said these things that I'm feeling, and then they would come up with these personal challenges that they're going through that I'm expressing. And I realized I am channeling that because I'm going through it and because I recognize it in them, but I'm not doing a good enough job on— in these conversations that I'm having with you of channeling my strength, of coming in with like the pounding the desk vision. And so I said, well, if people are watching and they're not getting that part, are they only seeing my vulnerability? Am I only comfortable sharing my vulnerability both on this podcast and in other conversations?

But part of why I think this podcast, you know, whatever, we'll keep doing it. I think we, let's find some cool guests too. But I also think it's gonna have huge legs ultimately is every time I'm sitting with founders, this is where the conversation goes invariably, right? And I'm, I'm always reminded there's, I think, a Picasso quote where he says like, when art critics get together, they talk about like the waves of the lines and the indication of coloring. And when great artists get together, they ask where to get the cheapest turpentine. And I always like say like, when investors get together, they talk about market sizes and the trends. When founders get together, they're, they're, they talk about, you know, it could be customer acquisition, but it could be just like, well, what do they do with the, with the voice in their head? Like, and I think most founders are, when they actually are together, that, that's like, this is where the conversation lands and there's not enough of it. There's so many market and AI and all these other things, but there's not enough people talking about this in my opinion.

Those are where my best conversations go.

I wanna plant a seed here maybe for a future discussion. Is it, Something's percolating in me around love and flow and wholeness. First, it's a provocative idea that you actually are already whole, perfect, and complete. So like all the voices that say, I need to be better, I need to be more visionary, I need to be like all these different ways, it's just a voice. Yabbering on in your mind that like at your essence, you literally are already everything you need to be. You don't need to be like, there's no, you don't need to improve yourself. And, and then the fear comes up of like, ah, but if I believe that, then I won't improve myself and I won't get better and I won't achieve and all that. And I just want to, I want to name what I'm seeing and experiencing, which is this like deep knowing of the truth of that, which sort of alleviates a lot of the like hustle, infernetic adrenaline like drive. And then what's, what seems to be emerging, and Jesse, curious if you're having this experience, I think you are to some of it, is flow. So, so both like a state of flow where I just feel like, feel flow, I feel flow of love, like I just feel like I'm in flow. And then kind of magical things flowing. And it, it like, I want to present this other way of creating in the world that isn't like this efforting and hustling and doing that feels more like I'm just following flow and aliveness and like magical things are happening and results like real tangible, real world important results are happening. You know, billion dollar companies being built, you know, that are likely going to go public, like So these are like, I think there's something here that needs to be named, that there's a different way of creating results that's much more like in partnership with life, like co-creation flow instead of this like effort, hustle, grind. And I just, I just finished one of my cohorts of Inner Game of Entrepreneurship course. And one of the founders was reporting, she's like, she's like, I'm having investors like reach out to me, like I'm getting speaking opportunities, like I don't, from nowhere, like she's reporting all these amazing, like real important results. It's like, this used to be really hard work where I felt like I had to hustle to make these things happen. And now they're just like happening. And it's, it is weird. And it's like, it's, it's almost hard to trust, like scary to trust. And I've just seen it now again and again and again. So I just want to put in people's mind this possibility that as you connect with like your essence and operate from the state of love and flow, like consider you actually might create even more extraordinary results, like with less and less effort.

I have caught moments of my life like that, and that is the vision that I have for the work that I'm doing with the both of you, that when I'm in that place, it's, it's not because things are necessarily going great. It's not because of anything else other than I'm in that place. And sometimes actually, I take it back, some little thing will have happened, like maybe I'll close a sale, but truthfully, this sale doesn't really impact my life financially that much. That person's opinion is not the big deal, but it just triggers something. And then I'm in that state of flow, the state of confidence, feels really good. And I, I know now that that's not a significant external thing that created it. It's just what allows me to feel it and justifies being okay with feeling it. And then everything else gets better. And I, I do wanna stay there. It's not easy, but we're working on it.

Or, or at least get back there as quickly as possible when you've gone to a different place.

Yeah. I do appreciate that both of you are reminding me to just do that, to get there, that it's okay to be there, to, it's a bigger voice in my head that's both of you than the opposite, which is like, what the hell were you doing? I wasn't even— get back here.

Good enough.

Be more serious.

Well, but Andrew, there is some— I mean, I— one of my favorite Dave-isms when he asked me is like, imagine that your soul knows what's best for you and is constantly like puppeteering your, your actual actions. Like, dude, you and I barely knew each other 15 months ago. Like, we had, we had interviewed me a couple times and we'd sort of been online friends And I don't even remember how we reacquainted. Like you, and then that drove you to help me with this newsletter, which, and then, and I got, you started, oh, this guy's interesting. He's like, and then we started a company and now Dave owns a part of it. And, and like, so some part of your higher self has pulled these two people into your life in a very serious way. And it's like, if you wanna believe in a higher power or something's going on, that's like, holy shit, man. It, you are ready to awaken. You are clearly ready to, to make that shift. Because you wouldn't have called these two people into your life in the way they have if you weren't. And your wife also feels like she's definitely in this interesting self-discovery and path. So you've got all these people around you that are, you know, and it's— there's something, I don't know, very, very faithful there to trust.

Feels good. I'm very grateful that two of you are in my life. I do appreciate how you both living the thing that you're doing and giving me like a model in my head for how to, how to respond and not having it just be a set of bullet points or ideas, but I can keep drawing on, oh yeah, that's the way that they did it. That's the way that they said it. That's the thing that I can do. All right, gentlemen, thank you so much. I didn't even ask either of you about the way you dressed. I didn't ask anyone for a compliment about my shirt. This is different, but I do appreciate actually that Dave— these little things like mean a lot to me— that Dave spent some time adjusting the reflection behind him, that you, uh, Jesse had just Did your mic pick up in the middle? Yeah, there's few aesthetic points that I really care about, and I love when we're all in harmony on caring about them.

All right.

Thank you.

All right.

See you.

Thank you.

Bye.

Bye everyone.

Bye.