Accessing A Higher Source of Confidence with Michael C.

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence, first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey.

You're going to learn these tools and.

How to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome to today's episode of the show. Today, I'm excited to share a conversation I had with an amazing man who not only has gone through my mastermind program to take his confidence to the next level, but he also has spent decades of his life helping other people access their confidence and particularly an increased sense of love in their life through faith. And he is a minister and is really interesting guy because he'll tell you he's like, I didn't plan on becoming a minister. That's not the life path that I thought, but that's kind of where I ended up. And he's helped so many people. And now he goes on to actually teach others in videos and his own YouTube channel, which you can hear about. But truly an amazing man. And in some of my interactions with him, I realized, like, there's something here that a conversation you and I could have that would be really beneficial for not only my audience, but frankly for me, too. Because what I found over the years of growing is that there for me, it started out like, I feel anxiety. I want to feel more confident. And first I want to feel confident in dating. And then I was like, no, I don't feel confident socially and have better friendships. And then I was like, no, wait, I want to be more authentic and more assertive and more real and less nice. And it kept on growing in the personal growth realm, you know, increasing my skills. And then, of course, I want more confidence in business and career. Kind of a natural progression. But it's almost like a circle that you imagine. It's really tight at first. Just like, I want a little more confidence to date, and then it expands, and then it expands. And then all of a sudden, now it's expanding to like, well, I want to have the confidence to be able to reach and help more people and help them with their confidence. And what I found is that I would put that all into the category of self confidence. And what I discovered is that there was a cap or a ceiling on how far I could go, how high I could go with self confidence, and that if I wanted to go further, there was like, a barrier to breakthrough. And that was into something that you might call faith or divine confidence or spiritual confidence or I'm not sure the exact terminology you want to use. And this isn't about a particular religion or you have to believe in some sort of ideology. This is like, wait a minute. How do you access a sense of like, I am okay no matter what, I am safe no matter what, I am held no matter what, I am guided no matter what, like, to really step and leap into the next unknown or that open your heart in a brand new way in a new relationship where you might get hurt. And how do I really feel? Okay and good and enthusiastic about stepping forward no matter what happens in my life. And I realized, like, whoa, now you're going beyond psychology into, like, transpersonal psychology or philosophy or faith or something. And so that's been a very fascinating area of study for me for quite a while that I've been exploring and will be something I'll be teaching more about in this show in a very practical way. How can you access more belief in yourself and more trust in life, more faith in something bigger? But I wanted to start with this fascinating conversation here with a man named Michael Kraft, who I'll let him share in the intro about his own background and experience, but someone who clearly is naturally a leader. In fact, in the Mastermind program that he went through, the people naturally gravitated towards him, and he naturally reached out to others and connected and was of service to them. So definitely a beautiful soul. And I look forward to you benefiting from this conversation that I had with him where we're really probing the edges of thought and how to use this stuff to be more confident in your daily life. So let's dive into that interview now. Enjoy. Welcome to the show, Michael. It is a pleasure to be with you here today.

I can't tell you how awesome it is to be with you, Aziz. It's definitely my pleasure to be with you today.

Yes. So this is a long time coming. We've had several conversations about how we need to have a recorded conversation about, for lack of a better term, kind of a bucket category of spiritual confidence, faith moving through life with more trust, more openness, and really, maybe even more open, maybe even more of an open heart, more courage, more power. And I think that as I've grown in kind of really Originally approaching this from a very practical, behavioral, and then psychological approach, I've realized, like, well, to get to the next level of faith and trust and to be free of anxiety, and, you know, there's something more accessible. And then you and I had the privilege of working together in the Unstoppable Confidence Mastermind program. And I know that you are actively teaching and helping people in the realm of faith. And also this topic of spiritual confidence has been something you've thought a lot about. So I'm excited to ask you some questions and dive in. Before we get into that, just so people have a bit of a sense of you and your background, can you let us know what it is that you do? What is your relationship with. With faith or any sort of teaching that you've done or that side of things, and then we'll. Then we'll dive in more.

Absolutely. Thank you. And, you know, I've. I've been a teacher, and I found myself in the position of a pastor, even though I've never wanted to be a pastor. But I've been interested in spirituality ever since I had my first encounter. I like to say I was ambushed by the love of God when I was 18 years old and really wasn't, you know, into religion per se. But the whole aspect of personal relationship and spirituality has been a major part of my life. And so I have been on a journey for almost 30 or 40 years now. I don't want to date myself, but, you know, the whole area of spirituality is so important in all of our lives. And so I've done a lot of studying. I've pastored, I've taught. I've been a coach. I've got a channel on YouTube called Coaching for Christians. It's kind of up and going. But, you know, hooking up with you in the whole area of confidence really just opened my eyes to, you know, how confidence plays into the whole realm of spirituality as. As well as how it touches every other area of our life.

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a great place to. To start.

So.

And I think that's. That's a. Well, first of all, that was so intriguing. I have to go back. Ambushed by the love of God at age 18, was it? Sort of. It sounds like maybe you weren't necessarily seeking at that time or engaged in any practice, kind of a spontaneous experience that maybe opened you to something new.

Absolutely. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home, and as a result of that, I came up with all of the insecurities and the people pleasing the lack of confidence on every level. Growing up in a home that had a lot of abuse, never really experienced love per se, not in the way that I would understand it. I was 17 years old, and I had planned on leaving the church, and we went on vacation up in Northern Michigan to a place called Houghton Lake. And I met a girl there, and she asked me if I was a Christian. And I kind of thought, well, you know, yeah, if you are. And it was really something where I felt like I had a tangible experience with love. I thought that it was, you know, the love of this girl, which would have been wonderful, and that would have, you know, been an icing on the cake. But what I came to understand is that, you know, looking back, hindsight 20 20, is that what I really had an experience with was I felt like it was a very spiritual experience, and it was an experience with a genuine love that I felt was on a very high spiritual dynamic.

Wow. Wow. So, and from there, there's this opening to. Wait a minute. This love that I'm feeling in that. In that moment, in that time. Do you say, oh, this is beyond her? Did you. Did you think of it as God or divine love? Did you have that frame of understanding?

No, I absolutely thought it was her because I had no relationship with women. I had never dated. I'll be honest with you, the first time that I told a woman that I liked her, Dr. I was so insecure, you would have thought I was asking her to marry me. And so this was literal an experience. And I'm thinking it's the girl, you know. And so I actually move because of this experience. We start. This was back before the Internet, you know, so we wrote letters, and I actually flew up to Fort Wayne to see this girl one time. And long story short, after a period of about a year or so of just corresponding back and forth, she kind of broke up with me because I wasn't very confident guy, you know, and it was. That was the crisis for me because that was a point where I had to ask myself, is this kind of God thing Is. Is it really. Is it for the girl? Am I just in it for the girl, or is it real? And so it was really, really kind of a. It was a pivotal moment for me because I had to decide, is this. Is this love that I'm experiencing that has, you know, it's gone beyond just she. Her father was a professor at a Bible college, and so naturally, I became interested in the Bible and reading the Bible, and it just all kind of came together. In just a really surreal sort of way. And after the quote, unquote breakup, which was devastating to me, but probably relief for her, I had to, you know, really decide whether this was a real spiritual encounter for me or whether it was just, you know, kind of a hoax to get the girl, you know.

Sure, sure. And I think what I like about your story is that everyone has their own individual experience of connecting with, opening to something beyond, you know, and there's just, there's a lot of different names for it and you know, there's different religious terms for it for the different main religions, like, you know, God, Yahweh, Allah, and then there's, and then there's kind of the more, you know, broader, especially in this day and age. I think a lot of people, you know, who are not, don't feel like they fit in with any organized religion, but they're not like an atheist or like there's nothing. And they want to feel that connection like, because it, without it, if we're just trying to manage all of this around us on our own, it's pretty quickly overwhelming and impossible.

It's like it really is. There's a YouTube video that I don't, I don't know if you, I think that you may have shown it in one of your masterclasses that it takes from, from a human's point of view and begins to go out, you know, into space and goes into the light years and billions of light years and we're out beyond galaxies and just the order and the mystery and just the, you know, just the mathematical genius of the universe as it expands, you know, into the expanse of the sky, and then to go back in, to the very internal parts of our being and get into the molecular. The way that the biology and the, the quirks and I don't even know all the names for how deep you can go there, but there is such a tremendous, it would seem to be divine order to our creation and to all of our lives that it's almost hard to, to deny, honestly.

Right. And, and so we seek something there, we seek connection with that. And, and then if people don't like, if they didn't fit in with a religion or they didn't like their upbringing, then they might turn to something a little bit more sort of non specific in general, like the universe. You know, I'm going to ask the universe for this or ask life for this, but I think there are different ways at pointing towards this, this thing. And that's certainly what I came to. I think I grew up not really the religion of Muslim and Islam, but not really any spiritual sense of connection or really care about God actually. It was just kind of like, I don't know, I say these prayers because I'm supp. Exactly, whatever. And then when I started experiencing chronic pain, I really concluded like there is no God, like I am alone in this suffering. And it really armored up in some ways emotionally and, and I think that's a common experience for people if they don't have an early experience or they feel really open to the divine and connected. And then when there's adversity in life, it, there's kind of like a, a rejection. At least that's how I felt it. Almost like a disdain for that, for those open hearted people who are imagining that. And I really stayed in that for a number of years until I also had you know, an experience where like my, my awareness became open to like the utter magnitude of this, of just this, the size of this earth, let alone all those galaxies. You know, just like this is. There is so much happening and how little of it I could see. And then I'd say it began a quest of curiosity. And that's really what I wanted to steer us towards today is like what I found is like, okay, there's a personal level of like I'm going to be the best me that I can be. I'm going to, I'm going to develop, I'm going to face my fears. I have my own choice, my own will. I'm going to become, you know, the strongest version of me. And then no matter how strong you are, no matter how awesome you are, like your very next breath is not in your control.

Exactly.

Tomorrow is not in your control. Which is very destabilizing to the I'm going to do it all myself story. Right. It's like until tomorrow, if I'm still here, I probably will be. I don't know. And then on top of that you can do all that's in your power. And then you realize there's a lot of like 99.9999% of it that's not in your power. Other people, broader circumstances, human politics, natural elements, the universe, the cosmos, right? Like there's, there's so much, so much beyond. And so to truly. Because my quest is confidence, right? So I'm like, okay, to truly have confidence. If it's all on self confidence, I can do it. That gets you, I mean, sure. That can get you out of like the pit of social anxiety into some level of competence.

But.

But that doesn't help you sleep well at night. Um, Cause what about the next downturn? What about a family member potentially getting sick?

What about. What about.

What about. What about on and on and on and just like, I'll get through it. I can handle anything. Wasn't enough. And it seemed like not only was it not enough to feel the highest levels of confidence, it didn't feel like enough if I really wanted to discover what this existence really is. Like, there's something else. There's something else. And so here's some questions that I wanted to run by you just to get your perspective on it in this exploration.

So.

If it's not all on me, right? And there is something else, I think one of the. And this is what Einstein said is one of the fundamental questions, right? Is, is the universe benevolent or not? You know, so how do you see this divine force? We can call it God here in this conversation. Whatever we want, is it. That's, that's, that's. I think it's a very interesting question. What's your sense? What's your experience? And, you know, is it benevolent, as in wishing well? Is it wishing well for me individually, does it want me to get what I want? Or is that just me kind of having like a wish fantasy? Right? Like, I hope map, you know, I hope God please bring me that bike on Christmas Day. You know, like, yeah, yeah, maybe a more immature relationship with the divine. That's kind of like a, I'm going to appease you and then you'll give me what I want. Kind of like the way a child would relate to a parent in some ways. So what are your thoughts about its benevolence and how we relate to it and it relates to us?

Well, I think that we have to acknowledge that spirituality is a realm just. Just as much as our physical body is a realm. And the voice of our physical body or the mind of our body is our feelings. And we also have an emotional body, you know, our mind, our will, and our emotions. And so there's all. There's also a dimension, a spiritual dimension. And I think that we all have to acknowledge. I think that we do acknowledge that there is a spiritual realm. It's just, you know, we've got. We know how to navigate in our body. We know how to navigate on some level with our mind. But this, this whole spiritual realm is kind of tohu bohu. You know, it's like, where do you go? Where do you put an anchor down? Where do you find a foundation And I think the question that you're asking, you know, is in the spiritual realm is what I'll call God. Is he a benevolent being? And, you know, there's really only three answers to that question. Either he is not a benevolent being, in which case, you know, we're. We're always watching out for the fiery darts or the wrathful, angry. You know, kind of. That kind of a perspective that some individuals have. Or there are individuals who will acknowledge a spiritual realm and yet not a deity. And. And then the other realm is. What you're talking about is. Is to. Is to acknowledge the benevolence or the good. What I call the goodness of God. And the question that. That a lot of people ask. And man, I get it, you know, why do bad things happen to good people? And usually, you know, God's the one that gets the bad rap for that. And yet, you know, in my studies and in the years that I've studied spirituality, I've come to the conclusion that God is. Or in the spiritual realm, that. That the highest level of consciousness is love. Talked about my initial experience. It was an experience with love. And I've done some study recently with David Hawkins. And he talks about his levels of consciousness, which starts down at the level of shame and guilt and apathy, which are kind of victim abuse, kind of levels of consciousness that go up to the level of confidence or go up to the level of courage. And that's around the 200 level of consciousness. But the scale goes all the way up to like a thousand. And I mean, his books, his writings are extremely interesting to me. But the highest level of consciousness that David Hawkins writes about in his books is the level of what he calls divine grace and divine love. And I think that. That. I think it's amazing that even science is. Is coming to a place where, you know, I'll talk about the spiritual realm, science will talk about the quantum field. And really, I think we're talking about the same thing. We're just using different, you know, different language. But at the height. At the height of. Of maturity, for lack of a better word in spirituality. There's. There's this place where we connect with this. This. This love that is beyond our comprehension.

Yes. And I think that's really fascinating. Which is, you know, is. Is love.

The.

You know, what's out there, quote, unquote. As if you could maybe even make a distinction between out there and us. But.

Right.

And then, you know, how we experience it. So, like, what's out there from a. From a physics Perspective is like a bunch of energy, some moving faster than others. But then we see, I see a microphone stand, I see light, I see all these things. So like my perceiving is like an antenna or as a, is a. I am interpreting through my perception. And I wonder, it's almost like that, that, just like the way that there's light emitting from the sun. There is, there does seem to be this field that is ever present everywhere within and without that is, that can be experienced through this human form that I have as love as that divine love. It's like the same way that I see the color green. It's like, oh, I can tune in to this experience of love. And so sometimes I think I've worked with that is like this idea of, you know, am I divine? Am I held in this divine love? And it's to me it seems like yes, if I tune into it, like.

I think that's a, that's a key is, you know, in order to experience anything, you've got to acknowledge it and the, the whole spiritual realm. It's, I believe that it's in our midst. I believe it's a dimension that, that, that exists. I mean, I don't believe that it's an up there out there thing. I believe that it's, it's literally in our midst. And you know, you talked about the speed of light. Anything that is beyond the speed of light is invisible to the human eye. And I believe that, you know, at least according to biblical records, in the beginning God said, let there be light. And so that would seem to indicate to me that the Creator is always greater than the created. In other words, if God created light, then there must be a realm of spirit where God exists that is beyond that sphere that we call light, which is the limit scientifically and otherwise, that we're able to comprehend. And I don't know whether man at one point had the ability to operate on this, what I'll call the fourth dimension. And then something happened and we fell from this dimension. Which doesn't mean that the dimension ceased to exist. It just means that our ability to relate to that realm, you know, just kind of went to a lower level. Mm. I don't know if that makes sense or not.

Oh, it totally does. And you know, if that sounds far fetched, it's like, well, imagine two humans, present day one grew up in a very simple village right on the edge of the Amazon rainforest. And they did some farming and some hunting and some harvesting. And this person spent 95% of their time outside and their domicile was like a open air sort of hut or simple structure compared to say, a person who lives in Manhattan who's grown up as a, you know, with the advent of smartphones and hyperspeed Internet and is a gamer and spends, you know, 95% of their time waking hours, you know, on a screen. And it's like, is, is the person from the Amazon going to perceive different things? Are they going to be able to hear things that the other person can't hear? And the answer is absolutely yes. Right. Just from a purely. And that's a very simple example, but I can see how humans have capabilities that we through use or disuse and also through collective sense of what's possible and reality, we can use or lose.

Well, just think about, you know, our communicating and those of you who are listening onto the podcast here today, that the technology that we're using to bring this podcast did not exist 25 years ago. And so, I mean, there are, you know, radio waves and of course we're on the Internet. So I don't know exactly how all of that works at the speed of sound or light or fiber optics or whatever. But, you know, we're tapping into things that I think that our grandparents and great grandparents would be scratching their heads. And you know, the thing is that the capacity to, to experience these have always existed. It's just that man has evolved to a place where we're now able to comprehend and to utilize and grasp things that have always been here, but we didn't know. But you know, it's like there's an acceleration and there's an expansion of knowledge and discovery and so forth. And I don't, I don't know if, you know, the day comes where faith becomes sight, but the fact is, is that, you know, there is a spiritual realm. And just as much as it takes faith to have natural confidence or to have confidence in your, in your, in your mental, your will, your emotions, knowledge based. It takes the same type of faith to operate in, in a spiritual realm. Absolutely.

And I love that you're bringing up the word faith because I think this word is so. There's such, it's such a, there's so much value, it's like gold in this. There's bitcoin in, in that exactly word that we can, that we can draw upon in our lives. It's such a resource. And you know, even, you know, confidence confides with faith. Right? So faith is as an essential part of stepping into the unknown and into our Lives. And, and yet we all see that if I set a goal, if I want something in life, I can either experience it or sometimes not experience it. And then I might say, well, I'm really determined, so I'm going to do whatever it takes. And so I put more energy in then I could experience it. I could also not experience it, right? And I can decide if I'm going to keep going or have I not. Also, we see that, you know, I hope for health of loved ones close to me, and we see that they can die. We see that children can die. Like, there's this. There's this vulnerability, and I think there's an inherent instability or lack of solidity that's just true. It's just the fundamental nature of reality or this form, I should say, of reality. And so there can be a. A hunger I feel in myself for that, bedrock for that. Like, what can I, like, hold on to? You know, like impermanence, man. There's nothing to hold on to. And so you could say, well, can you hold on to. To faith? Can you hold on to God, to the divine? And then that, though, is a. Can be a slippery one because it's like, well, the divine. One way to think of it is it's the forces of creation. And the force of creation is not just a warm blanket and a hug. You know, the force of creation is life. Like this incredible miracle of a. Of a gift of a human that can be your child or your lover or your friend or your parent. And then it's also sickness. It's also a tsunami. It's a, it's. It's an earthquake. It's. It's everything. And so how do you have like, you know, do you hold on to that? Because that seems like a wild dragon to hold on to and puts you right back in that, you know, impermanent state. So what are your thoughts on that? As faith is something to hold on to?

Well, I think faith is, is obviously, we all have faith. The real question to me, excuse me, is what is the object of your faith? You know, a lot of people have faith in themselves. We have, you know, if you go to the gym and you work out and I mean, you've got faith in your ability to, to bench £200, perhaps, or you've studied and you've got your advanced degree. And so you've got faith in your education, whatever job that you may have, you've got faith in your ability to do that. So, I mean, faith has to have a source. And so, you know, to have faith in faith alone, I don't think that that actually exists. I think that it has to, it has to find a source or a foundation in something. Because, you know, one of the things that I try to make a distinction between is the difference between faith and belief. And it's easy to kind of confuse, you know, get into the definitions of things, but we all have beliefs about a lot of things. The thing that distinguishes faith from belief is that faith requires corresponding action. If you really believe something, if you have confidence in something. Confidence can't just be a belief because, listen, I can say that I've got confidence all day long, but if you're not seeing corresponding actions in my life, then, you know, there may be a seed of confidence there. But, you know, you've got, you've got your inner critic, your safety police, you know, all those people, you know, all of those voices that are out there that are competing. And I believe that while you're wrestling through to this place of faith that you're, you're, you're working through your beliefs. Because I think that when you, when you reach the bedrock of faith, there has to be corresponding actions. And without corresponding actions, it really looks more like just a belief or a hope.

So let's look at that. So let's say you want to, you know, move forward in whatever in your life is meaningful to you with faith. And you want that object of faith to be beyond myself and my abilities. Oh, yeah, because, you know, even that is temporary, right? Like your ability to bench £200. You know, you can sustain that or increase that for X number of years, and then at one point you won't be able to bench £200. And then at one point you won't have a body anymore. And so, so then there's a sense of like, okay, well, I'm, you know, I'm going to put my faith in this invisible field that I cannot see, but I can like, sense sometimes as, as love or as awe or as maybe it's hard to put it into words even. I mean, I, I personally feel it the most, well, probably a couple different ways, sometimes relationally with loved ones or my kids or, or my wife or something, but also, or parents. But I can also feel it really distinctly when I'm outdoors in nature, in the mountains and, and this, like this wide open, expansive space and I'll, and I'll touch something there. I'll. But how do you, like, what are you putting the faith in is this thing, you know, because, because that, that very thing it's not like, well, it's gonna, you know, protect my, that's almost like a tribal God to me is like, protect me from my enemies and bring good fortune upon me, you know. And it's like, okay, I could, I could intend for that. And I do think that that has some impact in the quantum universe, quantum field, that my intention does matter, right? The observer effect, it does influence what's around me. But, but that thing, that thing is, that thing is what created the mountain that I'm looking at. You know, it's like, it's big and.

So.

What is your sense of what are you putting your faith in?

Well, I think for me personally it goes back to the question of do you believe that, that, that God is a benevolent, you know, that, that, that the, the, the in the spiritual realm that we, we work with a benevolent God, you know. And if you believe that, you know, in the spirit realm that God or however you relate to him is good, then I have this over arching kind of knowing because you see, again, feelings are the voice of your body and your mind, your will, your intellect and your emotions are the, the voice of your soul. Well, what's the, the voice of the spirit, in my opinion is kind of an intuition. It's kind of an inner knowing. And if I believe in a benevolent being, if I believe in a benevolent God, then he's not 95% benevolent. I mean, he's going to be good. But thank God he grades on a curve, you know, but he's, he's, he's, he's good. And so he must. I have to believe that it's all good. So my faith is a kind of an inner positioning of my heart, no matter what I'm going through, that says if I continue to position my heart correctly, I believe no matter what things may look like in their current form, that it's going to work out for good in the end.

And what is that good? Is that good for your own personal preference? Is it for those of those that you love? Is it for less pain for. Yeah, you know, for humans, for a particular you or your, or even the human species versus another animal species?

I think that's something that we grow in. I think on an elementary level we all start, listen, we all start in this world as babies. And when you're a baby, everything's about me. I mean, I want my bottle. I want it now. You know, I, I just put my diaper, I want it changed now. And I'm going to create hell for everybody who doesn't meet my need. Okay. And so for a lot of individuals, and this kind of goes back to David Hawkins and his levels of consciousness as well, is because we live at different places, some people will continually live a life that is focused on what I call the trinity of me, myself and I. You know, everything revolves around getting my needs met. And it's good if it affects me in a good way. I have to believe that, that, that God sees things in a much broader spectrum. I don't think that, that in the spirit realm, you know, we die physically, but I believe that each one of us are a three part being. We have, we, we have a body, we have a soul, and we also have a spirit. Whether we acknowledge it or not, we, we are that three part being. And so what's the distinction between a.

Soul and a spirit?

Well, that's, that's tough. And if I, if I were divine, I might be able to answer that for you. But between soul and spirit, I believe that the soul is, is your thinking capacity, it's your emotional capacity. And the will is kind of the umpire that decides who's going to win. You know, if you're in a situation and your emotions are, are pulling 80, 90% and your, your mind is only contributing 10%, then the will is going to say, okay, we're going to hook up with the emotions on this side and the will's the judge and says, this is the way that we're going to go in the, the realm of the spirit. The voice of the spirit, as I understand it, is our conscience, you know, because there are times that you may feel something, you may have an emotion, you may have a feeling, you may know a treat, you may have studied something, but yet there's this inner, just this kind of inner knowing or, and intuition. And again, I like to call it the conscience because I think most of us relate to, to that and you know, in the spirit. Distinguishing between spirit and soul is man. That's, that's really, you know, that's a fine, fine place. But as I experienced in my own life, it's, it's, it's conscience as opposed to knowledge or emotion or the what I see, hear, taste, feel, smell, you know, and hear as physical senses.

Mm, I appreciate that. And as you were talking, you know, I can see that I, the me, myself and I Trinity. At some point a while back in my life, I realized like, okay, that doesn't actually produce. That just creates an endless loop of suffering because it's, you know, it's, it's very so, okay, there is more liberation in expanding the eye or expanding the circle and looking to serve, you know, first, you know, the inner circle, which is like me and mine, and then, but then broader and broader and broader. And it's like, oh, the more I expand my intention to serve, the more free I become from that kind of obsessive self focus.

That is so true. That is so true. And I think that self focus, because listen, we live in this finite body and we may have 100, 120 years, whatever. I always like to tell this. I mean, I don't have the answers to everything any more than anybody else does. But I like to say this, that in 100 years or 120 years, I think we'll all believe the same thing, despite how different things may be now. But where I was going with that, Aziz, is this, is that I believe that when you begin to walk in the depth of what I'll call our spirit life is when we begin to see our connectedness to other people. If I see myself as a body man, I'm pretty self contained. I mean, everything is within the sphere of my head to my feet. And when I think of myself as a, as a soul, my mind, will and emotions, it's still confined to me, myself and I. But when I move into a spiritual realm, all of a sudden things get a whole lot bigger. All of, all of a sudden, I have to take into account that I'm connected with you, I'm connected to other people. And the things that I believe are, are essentially good for me, even though they may bring harm or hurt or something to somewhere someone else may not be in the best interest. If. And to distinguish between divine love and human love is. Human love, for the most part, is based on self gratification. Divine love is focused on elevating others. It actually values others. It considers others of greater value and worth than self and literally chooses joyfully to sacrifice self to bring benefit for others. That would be more of a definition of divine love.

Yeah, well, the I is no longer perceived as just that. You know, this, this body.

Right.

And you can see that often in. Parents will often kind of expand. Maybe not all the time, but in certain states. Right. They will sacrifice their own gratification because it brings delight to a child.

Exactly. Or you're in a situation where, you know, when your child's endangered or you see something, you see them moving in a direction where they're, where they could experience harm. And you know, a parent doesn't even think twice. I mean, where things can Be really self focused. One thing about being a parent is you absolutely learn how to, I like to say, crucify your flesh in order to serve others. Because you just can't be selfish and be a parent.

Yeah, no, absolutely. You're pulled to grow or put into an invite condition to grow, grow or suffer immensely. Well, so I love this. I wanted to come back to see if I can recall it. So this, this benevolence, right? And this, this is for the greater good. And it's almost like the lens and the perspective that I as an individual have on the greater good is like, that's like an ant looking at my house and thinking it knows like everything that's going on all over the place. It's like, it's so limited and so it's like, well, that wasn't for the greater good. Why? Because I didn't get my donut, you know, or whatever. Or even like a broader thing like, oh, but look at all those people over there that are, you know, and, but this is where it gets really interesting. If God is this benevolent force that is involved in the creation or the creator of, you know, beginning of the show you're talking about zoom out, which I, as you know, I do, I do show those clips at my events and stuff because I love that stuff. It's like, it's just such a direct pipeline into the awe of the, of the expansiveness of this divine creation that we're in. And it's like, but if you look at that, I mean, we're talking galaxy after galaxy after galaxy, hundreds of billions of trillions of inhabitable planets. I mean, it is vast. And is the benevolence more for humans? Because sometimes I'll look at humans and, you know, some, some trajectories that the human species is on. And it's like, you know, is, is, is a human more valuable than a gorilla? Is a human more important than the fish in the ocean? And you know, of course from a human perspective, species centric is like, hell yeah, you know, like, catch the fish, engage the gorilla, right? But this, if this benevolence, it's sort of like for the greater good of, of all of everything. And if so it seems like now you're in that metaphor of the ant. Like your house is so big, it's so complex that there's no maybe, there is no making sense of it. It's just, it's just a choice to, to have faith in, like this is for the greater good. And I don't need to understand if the greater good is. Means me or my neighbor or the ants or another planet or whatever.

Yeah, I think that it's, at least on a foundational level, I believe that it's important to come to a place where you can kind of resolve some way for yourself the benevolence of the universe, the benevolence of God. Because if you don't resolve that and it's, you know, there's so much to draw on and like, like you're saying, I mean, we're like these tiny, tiny ants who think we know everything about the world and the way things should go. And my experience has been. Well, I'll say this, I hope this isn't too much of a. Of a tangent. My father did not believe in a benevolent God. And because he did not believe in a benevolent God, he was a very angry man. And I think that in some ways I'm just thinking out loud here, but we almost take on the character of how we view God or how we view this realm of spirit because individuals who don't believe that God is benevolent are some of the angriest, hateful, murderous type people. And some of it is just anger, just geared towards divine, that's geared towards God. And yet individuals who have found and resolved in their own selves that God is benevolent, they seem to be more humble, more teachable, more expansive experience, more joy, have more confidence. Just their entire experience of life seems to be expansive and benevolent as well.

That's fascinating. Yeah, I definitely see that. And that makes sense as sort of a reflection of, of what you. Of the bigger, whatever the bigger is, if you perceive it is and it's benevolent, then you become a reflection of that. And if you perceive that it's not. I think there is. It's either almost an inherent emptiness or meaninglessness. And then also a. I think there's a pain too in closing off to that because that's what I did for a number of years. And then as I become more open, it does to me really feel like a very. I don't say tangible because you can't touch it, but it's a very clear frequency to, to feel that, that, that, that divine. And it's like, it's, to me, it's like, oh, it's there. Am I connected to it right now or not in terms of if I, like if I. Is my nervous system and in a place where I can do it, is my mind blocking it with a lot of talking and stories? But if I slow that down and I, and I open my Body and open my heart. It's right there.

Well, let me ask you a question, Aziz. Are you in connection with your body right now? Trick question. I mean, are. Are you aware. Are you. Are you aware of your toes, of your hands, of your ears, of the sense of smell? You know, sure.

As you say those things, then I become more aware, but until then, not much.

Yeah, exactly. When I mentioned them, it almost activates that all of that is there. And those senses are. Are always communicating, always transmitting information. It's just a matter of what we slow down to. Okay. You could think about your day to day. You got up. What was your emotional state? You know, how has it changed throughout the day? What are you thinking about? You know, and. And just as. As. As quickly as I can mention something that. That relates to one of these different realms. If we go to the spirit realm, it's just as real. And if we knew how to identify and how to tap into. And again, I'm not an expert on a lot of these things, but you were talking about frequencies. And I know that there are individuals who've studied, you know, the quantum field, which, again, I believe is the realm of the spirit, that there are certain frequencies that. That. That kind of, for lack of a better word, seem to be in correlation with this spirit realm that we're talking about.

Mm, I love this. Let me ask you one. One more thing I think could be really useful. Let's say someone listening, you know, because for me, I. Yeah, I was closed off to it. I didn't really feel it. If someone talked to me about anything like this, I would kind of roll my eyes and think, like, okay, this. This person just wants to anesthetize themselves to the, you know, brutal reality that floating, you know, we're. We're random, you know, kind of stuff that. That kind of stark, modern, genetic determined, science minded, hard approach. Right? And so I use that as a shell. And then, you know, what cracked me open was being with a mentor who was, like, way, you know, older than me and was kind of like, you think you know, a lot, huh? You know, and then at one point, being out looking at an ocean with him and. And eating psilocybin mushrooms and having an experience. I was like, whoa, whoa. Okay, all right, I get. I get it. I. I don't know.

Whoa.

You know, And. And then since then, I've. I've been involved in different ceremonies and sweat lodges and Santo Diamond Church. And I made it like a study of it, an exploration of it. So someone who has not done that who is hearing, like, you know, to some sort of. Like, to sum it up, I mean, like, you know, tune into the frequency of the invisible divine and feel its love and benevolence and. And, you know, assuming that someone has listened this far in the interview, they're probably. They're not like, whatever, I'll skip this episode. They're actually, like, open to this and actually want to be like, yeah, that sounds good. I want to feel that. I don't, though. I. My mind tells me things and I just kind of feel, you know, maybe I feel relaxed, maybe feel tense. What might you suggest to help someone start to open up and invite more of that connection with the divine? Benevolence or love? Yeah, you know, it may be a practice, but also maybe some things to move towards or experience in their life.

Yeah, I think that one I would recommend for someone who is searching, inquiring, wanting to discover is something that we have to lay aside is we have to realize that using the analogy you were talking about disease of the ant and the universe is. We're talking about a realm that is really beyond our comprehension. And if you see order in the universe, if you see order in biology, if you see order in this world, a lot of people, even scientists, will go back and say, hey, it all came from a big bang. And there's a lot of consensus around that. My question is, what type of intelligence created that Big bang? So that when it went off, that it caused this incomprehensible creation to begin to unfold and evolve? There's something deeper there. And again, going back to. If we're talking about a benevolent God or a benevolent realm in. In the spirit, you have to. Or at least my recommendation is to get. I don't want to say get beyond the science, but to look beyond just the facts or the physics and to begin to think that if God created all of this, he must have personality, he must have intelligence, he must have emotion, he must have a will. And if he is incomprehensibly greater than we are, then I would like to pose this question. I think that he wants to find you more than you want to find Him. And with that thought in mind, I have posed this very dangerous question that to me is a prayer. And I would say, God, or whoever you are, this intelligence, this. This realm that is. That is that we're all going to enter into at one point. Because when the body dies, the spirit continues to go on. That's a whole nother conversation. But Almighty God, if you're real I'm asking you to make yourself real to me in a way that I know that it's you. And what that does is it takes me out of the seat of being the judge. And it puts the weight of the question back into the spirit realm. It puts it back, back on to what I call God. And this super intelligence, the super benevolence, this super omni present, omni, omnipotent, omniscient, everywhere, beyond our comprehension. It puts things back into the hands of the divine. As you're seeking to, to almost attract into your life experiences that will lead you down the path to answer the heart question that you're asking.

I love that. I really appreciate that. It's a very useful. It's like an invoking something. And I. As you were talking, I'm thinking of like salmon that are. That are born in a stream and then they swim down to the ocean and they live their life in the ocean and then they find their way back to the very specific stream that they were born in and swim upstream and then lay eggs in that exact spot and then die. And I feel like there's something in humans too that's like we go about in the world and are swimming out in the ocean chasing whatever fame and power and achievement and being a somebody and something. And then at some point there's like this call that's like, come back to the. Come back to the stream. And it was like kind of underneath all of our chasing and grasping all along. I can speak from my own experience with this too. And, you know, I just was recently leading the Mastermind program through a goal setting workshop. And, and at this point, for me, I have specific goals. I have goals for, you know, this business and the people I want to help. And I have goals for my physical health and things I want to do and all these different areas. But if you were to say, aziz, what is the most important goal that you have right now? I would sum it up in one sentence, which is like, I want to. I want to know God.

Yeah.

I want to discover what that is. It's like this insatiable curiosity for that spirit realm is like, show me. And I don't want to just like, have someone else say, here it is, here's the answer. It's like, I want to be like, I want to. What is it? You know, what is it? And, and it's. It's just this wide open. So I think that, like, all right, God, spirit, like, show me. I think I'm in that place so that I Love that you shared that with everyone listening here.

And that's really where, where, where I am. It's the journey I've been on for a lifetime is I want to know God. I want him to reveal himself to me. I'm not interested in debating with anybody because I haven't got anything to prove. You know, it's like, is this aunt going to be the one that stands before everyone on Earth and is God's representative? Well, no. I mean, I'm like everybody else. I'm on this journey, but I have had my anti. Can help in this area. And I believe that, that everyone, just as much as you have a physical body, as much as you have a soul, mind, will and emotions, just as surely as you are, you have those, you have a spirit being. And quantum physics is. I mean, they've actually proven that there is energy that emanates from your body that goes out. I mean, it can go out 10, 15, 20. It can go out miles, you know, and, and in a lot of areas, we're using language that is spiritual language, trying to, to put spiritual language into scientific terms. And yet I believe that it gets much deeper than. I believe it enters into the realm of personality. I believe it enters into a place of relationship. I believe it enters into a place of divine benevolence and love at the highest level of consciousness. And I earnestly believe that if we set our heart on discovering this, that just as a baby, when a baby's born, did you know that a baby doesn't even know that it has hands until it's like six weeks old or something? You know, I always think it's funny because, you know, the baby's there, it's fully there, but all of a sudden these hands start going up in front of its eyes and everything and it goes, wow, these are mine. I can control these. Where did the, you know, the hands didn't just appear there when, when the baby became conscious and aware, they were there all along. Right. And so there are areas that, that are within the scope of our being and the scope of our universe that we're just beginning to discover, and they're just as real. And you're operating in that spirit realm every day. Just as surely as you're aware of your body, as surely as you're aware of your mind. There is a conscience, there is a spirit realm that each and every one of us have. And I think it's just opening up in front of all of us right now.

Yeah. Yeah. What, what a gift. This has been fantastic. Michael, thank you so much for sharing, for taking the time to be with us. You mentioned it earlier, but let's have you mention it again. The name of your YouTube channel and any other resource or anything that you'd want to point towards people towards and you know, whether or not someone is identifies as a Christian, I think that as people listening here, like your, your approach is so inclusive and you're just pointing towards something. It's humble and it's really refreshingly accessible. So I definitely recommend anyone who is intrigued by this conversation or wants to increase your capacity to connect and have that divine connection guide you in this life with more confidence. Where can people learn more, Michael?

And I'll tell you, there's. There's so many places that you can, that you can learn. I mean, obviously coming from a Christian foundation, the Bible would be where I would start. At the same time, if you're coming from a more scientific place, I've begun to read and study some of. I believe his name is Dr. Joe Dispenza, if I got the name right. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he does. I think he teaches at a quantum university someplace in Florida. There is just. There are so many places that you can go. You may have some recommendations yourself, you know, as a pastor, as a teacher, as someone who is, is, you know, trying to. Like I said, I've got a YouTube channel called Coaching for Christians and it's, it's developing confident, courageous and mature representatives of Jesus. And it all involves coming into alignment with, with, with spiritual truth on a real practical level. And so listen, that, that may be where you're at and if so you're, you're welcome to check out. I've got some foundational videos that are there, but at the same time there are other resources and wherever you are on your journey, there's some place for you to connect. And as you begin your journey, I believe that the divine will direct your path towards truth.

Beautiful. Thank you again, Michael, for sharing and a real treat. There's so much in here to, to continue to, to reflect on and to feel. So thank you for being with us today.

Absolutely.

That brings us to the end of the interview, almost the end of the episode. Just one more thing. Of course, you know what? It is.

Time for action. Action. Action.

That's right. It's time for action. So what I love to do with interview episodes is for you to decide your own action. There were a thousand and one opportunities in that episode, in that interview for you to reflect on you know something that you want to do. Some practice you want to take from this, some action you want to take from this. And you don't have to force it, just let it come to you. Hmm. Based upon that, what's standing out? What do I want to do next? What do I want to try? What do I want to apply? And the action can be outer, something you go do in the world, but it can also be inner, a new way you want to steer your mind, or some little practice you want to do with your awareness, or some decision you want to make based upon something that you heard in today's show. Whatever it is, don't leave this without turning into some sort of action. And until we speak again, may have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome. Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to social confidencecenter.com.

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