Anxious To Awesome with Derek Wang

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Hey, welcome today's episode of the show. Today we're going to be learning from a master. And this master's name is Derek Wang. He is a man that I met a couple of three years ago, now maybe four, and he attended several of my live events. He has been a client in my unstoppable confidence mastermind. He was in the core year year one, and then also in the master year year two, and just complete radical transformation in how he sees himself, how he approaches life. And what's very inspiring about Derek is his willingness to go to the edge, go to places that scare him, be uncomfortable, and his deep commitment to be real and authentic and to really have the courage to practice that in all kinds of interesting ways. And his willingness is definitely inspiring. And what I love about this conversation is he's really good at articulating what it's like in both places, right? The anxious place and the more confident place and the journey in between. And so what's cool about this is instead of just me interviewing a quote expert who's like, here's a technique to fix your broken, anxious brain, you loser.

Not that my. I don't think I've had an expert actually say that.

But anyway, there can be a sense of separation there, right? What I love about interviewing Derek is he's right there with us. He knows what it's like to be in anxiety and he knows what it's like to face the challenges and be on that journey. And that it's a never ending journey. We're always growing. And that, yes, it doesn't end, but man, things can become radically better and more beautiful as you live more and more your own life. So get ready for a fascinating, very practically useful, funny, heartfelt and inspiring interview with Derek Wang.

Here we go. Welcome to this interview with someone that I am really excited to talk to, Derek. Derek Wang is someone that I've seen grow radically over the last couple of Years and in so many different areas of confidence, but especially in the area of social confidence and dating confidence. And recently, I was leading a group call for a mastermind that I run, and there were several men in that group who were working on their dating confidence and hitting certain roadblocks in that process of maybe someone not responding them or getting rejected and then feeling really bad about themselves and then going into hopelessness. And I was like, I think we need to hear from Derek, because I know you've been through all of those experiences and are continuing to grow. There's no end to this. And, you know, objectively, from the outside, we can say you've had a lot of success when it comes to, you know, putting yourself out there. So thank you for joining us, and I look forward to learning from you today, man.

Awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me. Azizaya. Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity because every time I get to talk to, it's like, I'm, like, teaching myself over again and just, like, re. Cements some of these new beliefs that I'm installing. So it's a. It's a real pleasure, man.

Yeah. Well, so I'd like to do this in slightly, maybe a reverse way, Quentin Tarantino style. Let's actually take a snapshot of you recently. So what. What is it? You know, tell us a little bit about your social life now. Dating. Like, what is. What are some of, you know, the last couple months for you or what. What is your current experience with others?

So it's like, I think I've gone through distinct phases in my life where it's, like, on, like, I guess not to go back all the way, but, like, to give a little bit of context. Like, I used to be really shy, really socially anxious. Like, found it difficult to just, like, not even connect with people on a deep level, just even to connect with people on, like, a superficial level, just to hang out and, like, just talk about stuff. Like. And that's, like, a very basic level of hanging out. And I was, like, for the most part, pretty unable to do that, and it was terrible. And then I then on the other end, like, for a while, and I would say the last few years, I started to get, like, really good socially. And but then I realized I was almost doing it to compensate for, like, who I thought I should have been when I was younger. And now it's like, I've come to this point where it's like, I'm really. I embrace both when I'm around people, and I also enjoy the gift of being alone sometimes because that's when you can really like, look at yourself, figure your shit out. So it's like, I would say that in the last couple of months I went from like. So I moved to Boston and it's my first time having experiencing winter. And so I was like, I did not realize that I'm like a solar powered guy. And so for me, like this winter depression hit me really hard, like out of nowhere. And I was, oh, shit, this is terrible. This is terrible. But it's like thawed. So it's. And at the time, like, I would say December and January was probably the worst of it. I was like, oh my God, I, like, I cannot be alone. Because I was, I. I was still sort of like hanging on to this idea of like, I'm only validated when I'm around people. I'm spending time with people, they like me. And so like, that forced me to look at myself and spend a lot of time with myself and embrace that. And so in the last couple months, I've learned to really just not only be like, be comfortable hanging out with people, but just be comfortable by myself too. So like a snapshot of. I guess like recently, it's like yesterday, for example, like, I was out and about. I ran into like four or five people I knew just like randomly. And then like, the connections I have now, they're all very, like, deep. It's like my friend Kincaid that I ran into. It's like we talk about our insecurities around dating, our insecurities around, like, like the fact that we are both by choice, unemployed, that it's like, oh, like, what will people think of us if we tell them that? And so it's like to just relate on to people on a, like a. On a meaningful level. And same with my friend Olivia. She invited me to like a concert last night. And it's like we talk about stuff like anxieties and like, tension headaches and like, how we ground ourselves and lessons we've learned from our teachers and stuff like that. And like the connections I have now. It's like when I spend time with people, it's pretty much only with people I really want to spend time with. And when I'm not, I'm perfectly okay because that's when I grow the most, honestly.

Wow. There's a lot in there, right? Because I think a lot of people can relate to that of like, oh, I'm feeling shy, I'm held back. Okay, Being social is the answer. If I could just be socially confident. And that's part of the answer. But then you realize there's another. A level where we can be still running, even if we're popular, even if we have those connections. And so finding that capacity to be with and to open and connect, and then also to be with yourself and connect with yourself and be truly okay in that. So I think that's just another level of confidence that's awesome too. And I think a lot of people really hunger for that. Not just friends, but. But deep relationships, deep friendships, fulfilling friendships where they can be real and authentic and share experiences. So how. How did you create those. Those kinds of friendships that are not just superficial? Well, I guess there's. Okay, we gotta go back a little bit, because one, how did you create the confidence to get comfortable around people? You know, you said even just small talk and just being around people was uncomfortable. So how did you build that then? How did you build the deeper relationships?

So I feel like with. With getting comfortable around people in general. Let's see. I would say it. So. So this is not something I fully figured out. Like, I. I frequently find myself in situations where I'm, like, nervous around people, but that's because I choose to put myself in those situations to grow. And it's like, you have to. You have to expose yourself basically, a little bit. It's like, you know, the friendly greetings you recommend. Like, Boston is one of the hardest cities in the world to do it. I would presume there's people here. It's like the whole east coast hustle mindset. Everyone's got their headphones in and like. Like, people think you always want something when you. When you just wave at them. So, like, even doing that, it's like, it's difficult. But I do it because, like, you get. It's like you get some good feedback along the way. And it also scrambles your brain because your brain makes assumption about, like, oh, that person looks friendly. I bet when I wave at them, they're gonna. They're gonna wave back. Or like, those people are intimidating, they're not gonna wave back. And then the reverse happens. And so then you start to realize that, like, people are kind of like. They're just. It's so simple to say, and I hate saying it this way, but, like, when you really start to have these experiences where you humanize people for what they are, not as how you perceive them, but, like, who they actually are. And it's like, so, like, doing friendly greetings or, you know, just making small talk with someone who, like, basically has to, like, if I go Pretty much everywhere I go. Like, if I'm in line at Chipotle, I just, I'll talk to the guy who's making the burrito. Or if I'm like, checking out at the store, I'll just like, say, hey, how's your day going? And make small talk that way. And then in any context where it's like a shared situation, right? Like at your live events, like, I find, honestly, I'm. Whenever I go to your live events, I find myself very popular because it's always I have something to talk about, to relate with. I'm like, oh, hey, how did you find Dr. Z? How did you. Like, you know. And there you go, you have a bit of a conversation going. As far as creating the more deeper connections. It's all about leading with authenticity, which is not easy to do because I remember many, many years ago in like, maybe high school and college, like, I was afraid to tell people I like watching anime. Like, that was. That was like, too vulnerable for me. And I think back now and it's like, I'll tell everyone I fucking love anime. Like, I like. But it's almost crazy. Like, when you're that imprisoned by your own mind, what you think is, like, what you. What people will perceive you as or like, look down upon you for. And it's, It's.

Yeah, well, in that if someone does judge you for liking anime, you would feel bad because their perception holds more weight. It's like, oh, I guess anime is embarrassing. Whereas now if you say, like, I like anime and someone's like, I don't, and you're like, okay, right? You're solid in yourself. You're like, it's okay. You can like, whatever. You don't have to like anime. I'm just telling you what I like. So there's this, like, owning yourself and owning who you are. And I think that that's this interesting combination of. It's, you know, we call it. You might call that, you know, inner work or inner game or something. But. But the inner work is really for. Pushed forward by the outer actions too.

Oh, absolutely.

Ability to start to take those risks and reveal more about yourself and then maybe get a whole variety of responses, some pleasant, some unpleasant, and then persevering in that. That's how you get that strength to be. Be able to do that.

Yeah, 100%. And the thing. So I've been, I've been following another gentleman that I. Honestly, he reminds me so much of you. His name's Brian Begin and he talks more about, like, on dating. But it's also a lot of just like, general confidence stuff, because that stuff trickles down. It's like a, you know, it's an overarching umbrella. But, like, he talks about, like, basically what you call the peace process, like, letting go, releasing. And it's like when you put yourself in situations, like, for example, like if you go out and you make a practice of talking to five women that you're attracted to, it's not like the. The bigger picture that isn't just, oh, I want to, like, get laid, I want to go on dates, I want to find a girlfriend. It's that forces you to grow because every time you go in, like, your shit will get stirred up, and I think you curse on this podcast, I think, yeah, we can.

We can market. Fuck. Yeah, we do.

No, but so, so it's like you, like, your stuff will come up, and then you have to learn to let that go. And in the process of letting go, it's like, you know, on the, On David Hawkins level of consciousness that, you know, you talk about, it's like you learn to love and accept and appreciate what is as a. As opposed to what your stories are. They kind of get dismantled, but it's like, you have to go out there and stir those things up. They actually serve a purpose. And so it's not just, oh, I have to face my fears so I can date and get girls. It's, I have to face my fears so I can grow into the person that can be who he is in this world.

Yes.

So it's been fascinating to just. Yeah, like, understand that. I guess when you.

When you really get that, it changes the game. Right. Because if it's like, I'm going to do this just enough to get the outcome, then you're going to be looking for the quick fix and the hack, and it's not going to work. Same thing with, like, getting stronger physically, right. It's like, what's the least amount I can do to get the hack versus, like, well, what if getting stronger is not just about looking a certain way? What if it's really about becoming what you're capable of and what you're here to do and when you really take it on that way. And same thing with dating and relationships and other areas.

It.

You just have so much more sustained fuel and you. And you look at the opportunities which might be things that scare you, you look at those differently. But let me ask you a question here, because I know some people listening, it's kind of like, whoa, go out and talk to five women. Like, especially if it's someone who's interested in dating and they hear that. Like, when I was younger, if I heard that, I would have been like, what is it? Okay, that's like saying, you know, just go slam dunk a ball. Just jump up, vertical jump, and, you know, get it in there. It's kind of like, okay, so. And I know you were not always at that place where you could just go out and boom. So let's. Let's go way, you know, back. It's like, how do you. How do you get to that place where you can interact with women more and more, go out and talk to them?

It's. I would say it's like, you know, you always use the analogy as ease of, like, going to the gym, right? It's like, you don't start by going to the bench, going to the gym, and like loading up two pound plates on each side and trying to bench, like that weight. You do the five pound weight and then the ten pound weight. And so it's like you create a sort of a ladder, I guess.

Yeah.

Have you called it the ladder of.

Success, ladder to victory, or ladder of victory, as I call it, in confidence? You. I'm curious, what are some of the things that you did, you know, earlier on in your ladders, especially around dating and social stuff?

So I would say, Okay, so I took sort of a weird path. Cause my thing is I'm a perfectionist and I'm an idealist. So it's like I was like, and this is an unhealthy way to look at it, right? I have a much healthier way of looking at my growth now. But it was like, back then, it was like, oh, I have to talk to five women because it's like, I'm trying to date, so what's the point of talking to old men or doing friendly greetings? So I almost, honestly, I skipped a bunch of that stuff. And it's like, as I get older now, I'm like, wait, this is. This is the important stuff. Actually, like, the dating is like, actually a byproduct of becoming an integrated, attractive, confident, you know, expressive individual. But what I would tell myself when I was younger is like, derek, trust me like this. You have to do the little things first. The things that you can do. You know, like the fours, fives out of tens on the difficulty scale for you, on the discomfort scale, tension scale. If you can't even make eye contact with people that are walking by. Like, if you walk by someone and you're like, oh, that person is, like, attractive. I can't. Oh, you know, then start with the people that you can. Like the old grandma walking her dog. And, you know, if you're comfortable with making eye contact with her, then, you know, maybe tossing a wave or something. So really start. Like, make a list of things that you can do to push yourself socially and in dating. Like, maybe if you can't talk to a woman that you find very attractive, or you can't talk to, like, women that are in groups with each other. Like, talk to, you know, a woman who is, you know, maybe older and, you know, she seems friendly and she's like, sitting down at the park and she has a book and you can just, like, ask her a question. Like, give yourself permission to leave too, if it gets awkward for you after that. So there are a million things. And honestly, the biggest thing I would suggest is go out into the world and, like, notice. Start to look at the world as, like. Like, let. Let that sense of avoidance be your. Be your beacon, right? Like, it's like, where am I? Where am I avoiding? Like, and then maybe not dive into those things that I'm really scared of immediately. But, like, how can I create a less scary version of this thing that I perhaps would want to do and do it. And maybe it's one thing a day. I think in the past you had this courage habit. I think you mentioned a couple years ago that, like, you committed to doing one thing a day that scared you for, I don't know, a year or something. I don't know if you completed. I didn't actually, but I did it for a while. And it's like doing the little things that you can and soon. And also relishing in those victories, too. Like, don't discount them, because in the past I would be like, oh, that was too easy. I'm a chicken. I only talked to the old lady when I should have talked to the pretty girl that was like five feet away from her or whatever. And. And it was like there was so much push, push, push, push, push, and you. It's like an unhealthy way to go about it.

And what's really interesting is that is visible to you in retrospect when you look back. Oh, yeah. And sometimes I try to. I. Because I've seen how this process works, and I know it is sort of formulaic. Like, if someone commits in the way that you have and you do the stuff, you're going to grow. It's not like, you know, just like, if you were physically active and use your body, it will get stronger. It's not a luck kind of thing. And yet that's easy for me to say. It's easy for you to say because you. You have verified faith. It's like it's happened and happening. Some people that are kind of newer in the process, what happens is a fear gets so strong that maybe intellectually they're like, yeah, okay, but, oh, I don't know. And what I'll see often is that. That we deal with that fear by, like, this intensity or this pushing. And. And one thing I'll do with clients is try to help them say, okay, imagine like, a year or two years from now, you're already there. Like, you have the friends. You are connected. You. You're. You're. You're in a relationship or you're dating, or you feel just confident in yourself to do whatever. Like, bringing that back to now, how would you approach this? And you could see this softening inside of them, because I was the same way. And it's funny because when I look back now and I think of moments where I would drive to. I'd be visiting a friend in San Francisco. I lived about 45 minutes south of that city, and I'd go visit a friend, and I would go there, like, an hour ahead of time to drive to a busy area like Union street, to walk up and down the street and do this kind of stuff. And I'd be nervous before I got there. And then I remember, like, women would be. Have these, like, big. It was a spring or summer, so when I have these big sunglasses on that were, like, jumbo dark glasses on their face, and they would just, like, not even acknowledge a high or whatever. It was just, like, total rebuff. And I'd just be like, oh, this is so intense and uncomfortable. And.

And.

But then when I look back on those moments now, I just feel so much, like, happiness. It's like there's sweet memories. I feel like the sunshine. And I see this younger version of me, and I'm, like, proud of him. I'm like, yeah, look at you go, man. You know? And I see the women as, like, then they were so scary to me, and now I just see them as more complete humans. And it's just so. It's really cool to see how these things that can seem so hard and scary in the moment can actually be some of the greatest, most liberating periods of your life.

Absolutely. And I love the idea. It's going back to the whole Letting go of things. I really can't stress it enough of, like, yes, you want to take the outer action, but it's like taking the outer action allows you to see what stories you have. It's like when you walk by those, you know, those women with the big Dior glasses or whatever, and they ignore you. And the story probably goes something like, oh, yeah, like, I'm ugly. And, like, these women, like, are looking down at me. They're like, who the fuck is this?

Yeah, basically, that's. That's the script, right?

And so.

So.

So what you do is you. When you. When you actually have. When you go out and you do these things that trigger these stories and you release these stories, you do the work that. Letting go, the peace process, these kinds of things, what you get is a sense of clarity, like an objectivity that doesn't come when you're. When you're stuck in these, like, deep emotions and. And then later, over time, as you achieve this, like, being just more at peace with the world. Not like. I don't want to say enlightenment, because that's very lofty, but it's like, you're just more lucid. As you operate in the world, you start to take things so less personally, and it's almost like an appreciation. Like, oh, man. Like, you start to humanize people. Like, oh, I hope she's having a good day. She looked. The way she scowled, maybe she seemed like she's gen. Like I'm upset or the. Like, me. She gets down when it's raining outside or whatever, and it's like. And you just get this sense of curiosity about the world. Your, like, mind opens up and. And I guess just on a practical level, like, there's a lot of things I can say that are kind of, like. That might be confusing to a lot of people, but honestly, like, the part where you learn to love yourself first, that is. You know, when I was younger, that didn't really make sense. It's like, oh, if I have a girlfriend, then I know I'm worthy. Then I'll love myself. It doesn't work that way, you know, but the funny thing is, like, when you're. When you. When the idea doesn't make sense to you, like, for me, it's like. What I realized is I had to chunk it down as, like. Like, loving myself was like trying to leave the Grand Canyon. What I could do was, like, trying to accept myself first.

Yeah.

Just, like, realize that, you know, I'm just me. And everything about me is like. It's like you know, you use the analogy of, like, trees, right? It's like, is the. Is that tree, like, bad or good or whatever? Like, we label ourselves and it's just. No, I just am. You know, and then when you can get to that level of acceptance, that love almost comes naturally because you. Then you get an appreciation for, like, differences, and then you just start to see, oh, this is actually what makes me special. And then that love just almost comes naturally. And so it's like, with that perspective, that's when I can lead with vulnerability. And it's like, so attractive. Like, there was this one time, like, I was at the. At this, like, dance, Latin dance club, and this gal, just like, she was just like, we were just talking, but she was clearly very attracted to me. And I was, you know, I was kind of just curious. I was like, like, what. What do you like, what do you like about me so much? Not in like a cocky way, just like a genuine. I'm like, very curious. And she's like, you're so honest. And the only reason I could be so honest is because I just appreciate that about myself. Like, I think there's. There's times when I've gone up to women at this Latin dance club, and, you know, we just talk about our love for dancing and, like, how we got started. And they're like, why did you get started dancing? And I'm like, well, the truth is, like, I wanted to just meet women and. Because that's the truth. And a lot of guys will not admit that. It's because I'm so comfortable with the idea. Like, yeah, this is just accepted that that is my truth. You know that they say the difference between being weird and being charismatic is just like, how much you own it. And it's like, yes.

And it comes back to that reality and owning your reality part. Because when you say those, like, the this is unacceptable or someone's gonna judge me for this, I have to hide it all. All those things. When someone just owns. Doesn't sound so shameful or bad anymore. It's like, yeah, I'm here to meet women. It's like, what, you come to a place to meet women? Yeah. It's almost like that's weird that you think that's weird. Of course I would want to go put myself out there. I'm curious you. When it comes to this self acceptance, a story that I remember would go through your mind. And I had this story, and I know a lot of. A lot of people have a story that's sort of like Especially if you live in the United States or maybe a European country and you're not white, there can be some sense of like, oh, okay, you know, that's not as. Maybe a woman, especially a white woman, would be like, oh, tolerate that or something, but she's really going to be into. You know, for me, it was not just a white guy, but, like, a tall, muscular white guy was sort of the ideal standard for men. And so I would have this kind of perpetual sense of inadequacy that took. Took quite a while to really. And if you'd had me say, like, okay, work on acceptance. It kind of been like, okay, I'll acknowledge, like, this is the body I get, this is who I am. I can accept that. But objectively, women are going to want the other thing more. Like, that was my. That was my story. That was my belief. And I'm curious for you how that story has, you know, emerged or what your experience is with that. How did that change for you? And we may have lost you. Oh, are you there? Oh, no.

For sure.

Oh, man. I don't want to get too. Too long winded, but I would say that story, it's. That's such a hard one to dissolve because there is some. Like, the thing you have to realize is, Okay, I think. I really think it should be good now. Cool. So, yeah, the thing that I've come to realize is, like, part of accepting the world as it is is like, there is some element of truth to these stories. Like, for me, for the longest time, I tried to run from this idea. And, like, it's like, you could. When you're trying to, like, indoctrinate yourself forcefully, you. Your mind will naturally resist. Like, you sort of have to accept first and let your mind kind of, like, let yourself soften, and then the truth can kind of come in. So it's like, for the longest time, I would, like, just try and be like, oh, yeah, like, yeah, it's fine. Like, some women. Some women will like me, some women won't, which is, like, true. But it's like, it's one thing to know something intellectually, but, like, have your heart, just kind of resist it. But for me, the truth, like, what the shift, I would say came in first. Having experiences that I can, like, you know, just reference experiences where it's like, not only just white women, but, like, very, like, objectively very physically attractive white women, like, would go on dates with me. And there's. There's one example that I'm thinking off of right now, and I You know, retell to myself often, and she was, like, objectively, like, super attractive. And like, when we were on our little date, like, literally, the guys at the next table, like, we were just, like, kept staring at her while talking to each other, which I thought was so weird. It's like, we can see that you're talking to each other while looking here, but it's like you have a few reference experiences. But also for me, the bigger part is like, the acceptance of the idea that in American society, there are, like, you know, like a lamb. Like, most people will value a Lamborghini more than they'll value your mom's Toyota Camry. And, you know, most women will see Brad Pitt and they'll think he's more attractive than, you know, me or whatever. But that. When you can sort of accept that idea, that almost kind of takes away the power because then you're not resisting every time you get rejected. It's like, okay, yeah, like, I'm. You know, some women just won't like me, and that's okay. And those women, they don't know what they're missing out on. And so for me, it's you.

And I don't think you got that last little tweak there that they don't know what they're missing out on. Was that coming from the acceptance of yourself and really starting to appreciate you?

Which is. Which is why I kept harping on it earlier. It's like the whole. The whole self, like, self love, which I used to hate that term because it, for me, was so out there that I couldn't even says it. Like, what does that actually mean? You know, but like. Like, now that I'm getting there, it's like, it's. It's. Yeah. And that's honestly, like, the crux of it. It's like, you know, as much as. Because earlier, Aziz, you mentioned, like, some of these techniques that I wanted to talk about. For me, it's not even about the techniques. That's what I. What I realized. Yes. I mean, they're obviously like, you don't go up to a girl and be like, nice ass. Like, you have to, you know, you have to have some social. Social intelligence. But a lot of dating is honestly, just because when you think about it, what is it really? It's two humans, like, connecting and being attracted to each other's rough edges as. As that book famously says. And in order to show. It's like you just have to show yourself fully. In order to do that, you have to accept, like, you have to let go of the resistance of showing yourself fully first. Right. And initially it's going to be awkward. It's going to be like you're going to say something like, oh, fuck. Like, I can't believe I just said that. Like, I think about the times, like, many years ago when I told people I liked anime and I was like, I can't. Like, oh, my God. Like, you know, I want to, like, run away after saying that. And it's like now it's like, sometimes, like, I'm shocked. I'm shocked by the things that come out of my mouth and I'm like, I can't believe I just said that. That was pretty awesome.

Like, I know that's something that people appreciate about you because I've seen you at events and stuff or in the virtual events with the chat. Like, you're letting yourself just be spontaneous and absurd. And people really are drawn to that.

Right.

Because you're willing to just let you be you. And maybe you have like a random side or a humor, quirky side. And it's like, you're not suppressing that. You're just putting that out there, like all the other parts of you.

Right? Yeah. And I would say, like, back to your original point, which I almost sort of lost, but it's like there. There are absolutely things that you can do to make yourself, like, more attractive. I would honestly say the biggest thing is that when you feel more attractive, other people perceive you as more attractive. But it's. Yeah, there's some truth that it's like, if you're in better shape, like, more women will initially be receptive to you than if you're like 800 pounds overweight. So. But yeah, especially with the race one. I mean, that's something. That's something that's still. Like, I would. It doesn't bother me as much as it used to, but it still sucks. Sometimes I'll be like, oh, like, I'll go back into that victim mindset sometimes. Like, and it happened just yesterday, I was at the gym and there's this guy that looks like Chris Hemsworth from Thor, but, like, even better, if that's even possible. Damn, it must be nice to be like that, you know? And so I'll go there, too. But the thing is, when you go there, you then you Then you're failing to see what actually is. Right. When you get caught up in your stories and all the emotions come was.

This story of, like, that person doesn't have hardships in the way that I do. And I remember that was really something that really struck me. It's because I went through all of high school, especially a college like comparison city. Look at those guys in the gym. Look at my good friend, some guy, one of my best friends is super muscular. And I was just like. And I remember I had a really distinct moment because what you said, I love what you said about the more you interact in the world, the more lucid you become and the more those stories start to fall away. And I remember that when I started to become more social and interact with people and, and started to have more real conversations, I'll never forget there was one guy that I was talking to and I just met him out somewhere or whatever. We weren't good friends or anything, but you know, there's alcohol involved and he was opening up and sharing more with me and he was like, like that, right? You know, like someone that I thought would be better than me and muscular and women almost all want him. And he did have women that seemed to be drawn to him. Even during our conversation, there's like interactions that were happening. But here's the thing. He was telling me at some point about him and his dad and like his dad like throwing beer bottles at him when he was young and how much that kind of fucked up his head and made him feel like he was worthless. No matter how many women want him, he still doesn't feel enough. And you know, and it was like, whoa, we really don't know what's going on. And this story of like, oh, they have it so easy because they're rich or because they look like this or because of whatever. And women can do this too, you know, like her. Look at, she's got this. And it's like we just. The idea that someone is skating through life with no hardships is an illusion. And it's what we want to go to when we're in a state of self pity and defeat and not feeling ready and able to transform into action, you know, and it's okay to go there. It's helpful if we go there and we remember, okay, I'm doing that right now. It's not true, but that's what it seems like is that, you know, that difference. But yeah, and I think what you said really stood out to me. When you have experiences that disprove your stories, they no longer hold so much power over you. And I remember for me, when I was willing to take bold action to ask women out, some would say no and some would say yes. And the ones that would say yes could look all kinds of different ways. They could be different colors, different heights, different weights, different. And so this whole idea of, like, oh, you know, only a certain. The women that I'm really drawn to would not be drawn to me was shattered. And then when I realized, like, oh, so some women might be like, oh, I don't like this guy because he's brown and his name is Aziz, that's okay. There's a lot of other women that don't have that criteria. And so there's an abundance of opportunity. And it's like saying, oh, that restaurant, you know, doesn't want me in there. It's like, okay, but there's, like, 30 other restaurants that are happy to have your business. Do I stand outside the one that doesn't want me and, like, picket them and be like, you're bad. You're bad.

You should change?

It's like. Or do I just go where. It's a natural, easeful flow.

Yeah. And it's. Were you about to say something else?

I was gonna ask you another question, but if you had something else to add, please do.

Sure, yeah. Just. Just to add to that point. Yeah, 100%. And it's like, the only. The only way you get to that point is, like, you. Because, you know, naturally, if. When. When you're kind of in that mode of self. Self attack and self denial, basically denying your own greatness and only seeing yourself as unattractive, it's, you know, maybe you go talk to, like, three women. That's, like, really hard. And you get, you know, you get rejected three times, and then you're like, oh, yeah, I'm doomed. Like, I put myself out there. And, you know, so there is this element, like you said, of sustained fuel. And the sustained fuel comes from, like, that's where the whole quote unquote, inner game comes in. It's like when you have this firm belief. Not it, like, you call it three levels of confidence. Right. Not just in yourself, but in others in life that, like, you know, this is the way the universe is. It's not black and white. It's so infinitely complex, and people are so intricate and all kinds of different ideas and. Yeah, it's like when. The thing is, when you start to meet people, you start to hear the craziest stories. And I'm sure you've had the same experience as these. Like, I've met so many people, like, attractive, unattractive, and, like, their stories are, like, just way beyond, like, what I could possibly imagine just by looking at them. And. Yeah, yeah. So That's. That's what I'll. I'll say about that.

Yeah, we like to simplify things in our minds. This is how it is. And then when you really, you know, explore it. Hey, I wanted to ask you some fun questions just to see what. In the end, this. This segment that I'm just making up now is called what Would Derek Do? We need a little audio intro for that. But so I'm just gonna take a few different scenarios and just see what you would do, because I really love you said is like, well, you know, dating and connecting and maybe socially too. It's just about two humans coming together. Right. And seeing what's there. So let's say you were at a gym and you saw a lady that caught your eye and you wanted to interact with her.

Yeah.

See if there was something there, what would you do?

So this is. So this. Now I see why you were talking about, like, techniques or whatever tips I can give her. Because there is some definitely, like, social. Social customs exist. And like, if, you know, if you go into a gym and you say, like, just start smacking every girl in the ass, like, you're gonna get thrown out real quick. Like, you'll be lucky if that's all that happens to you. So at the gym, I would say in any situation where you are, like, if it's someone you see regularly, you don't have to go right off the bat and be like, hey, like, you're super hot, like, whatever. And I know, I guess a lot of the listeners probably wouldn't even do that because that. That would be like the way too forward and way too bold and potentially just, like, too scary. If it's someone that you'll see that you would see regularly, I would say just. Just say, hey, I see you here a lot. Like, do you often come at this time? And then take it from there. Obviously the art of conversation is, you know, it's another horse entirely, so that, you know, we can't really talk about that so much, but to just recognize that, hey, we share this space together and I, you know, I acknowledge you as someone else who we have this shared activity and perhaps start about talking about the gym. If it's someone that, like, if it's like a gym that I, you know, I'm visiting LA or something, and I'm only in the gym, like, gonna be there for two days, and I want to, you know, maybe take on a date, get to know her a little bit, just, like, hang out, you know, swap worldviews a little bit. I'll just be like, hey, I'll be more forward because that kind of tends to stand out more, right. I'll be like, hey, you know, I'm visiting town, but I thought you were really cute, wanted to say hi and then, and then just kind of take conversation from there. So. But I think for most people, if you're a regular at the gym or anywhere really. Yeah. Just introduce yourself as, you know, as someone that also goes there and take it from there. But at some point though, at some point though, definitely you have to, you know, it's because the thing about, about being creepy is that ironically, when you don't own the fact that you know, you have like, I'm gonna be, I'm be a bit like crass here, but if you don't own the fact that you have a penis or vagina, then that's creepy, right? Because they, they know that you're, you're talking to them for a reason. So you know, if you keep talking them for like 20 times and you keep hinting like, or like staring at their butt or whatever, whatever weird thing you might be doing and never acknowledge the fact that you're interested in them, then that gets creepy. So at some point you do have to like, you know, acknowledge the fact that you find them attractive or that, you know, you find them interesting. You like to get to know them. And also, yeah, like another big thing when it comes to dating is realize that you have your standards too. Like, there have been so many times that I've like met someone that I thought was attractive at first and then I got to know them and I was like, yo, like this, you're not actually someone I would want to date. And then like in a sense, like have some self respect too, that it's, it's a two way street. Right. Like you want to make sure that you're interested in them as well.

I love that. Yeah. And thanks for the distinction around the creepy part. And I think sometimes people are, oh, I can't talk to this person because that will be creepy. It's like, no, the creepy is in the not talking and ogling from afar and then hovering and then, you know, getting in their space and then moving away. It's so much, you just put it out on the table when you go interact. I like that distinction too, about ongoingly seeing someone versus, you know, once. Now some men that I hear kind of want to do what you said but, but leave out any indication that they find her active in any way. It's like, oh, that Part's unacceptable. That's what's going to upset her. So I'm going to be friendly. I'm going to say, hey, you know, you come out, you know what time of day you come or, oh, that's cool. Or whatever. You chat for a little bit and then, you know, maybe the next time you see him, you chat for a little bit and then you say, hey, we should grab a drink sometime. Or maybe not even that, but it's like, oh, maybe, you know, we should get. There's a little smoothie bar outside. You should, we should come do that. What are your thoughts on that versus being more forward about the fact that you're attracted to her?

Oh, for sure. I love this question. I love this question so much because I, I have the same kind of like, nice guy programming. Like, just like sexual shame is really what it is. Like we've been conditioned to forget that, you know, at the, at our core we're met. We're animals, right. Like hairless monkeys. We are like, designed to reproduce, to have like, you know, so speak for yourself.

I am civilized. I. Yeah.

You know, so it's like, yeah, like, I still struggle with this sometimes. Like this problem of being a closeted heterosexual. Like. The most attractive thing in anyone is like someone who is interested. Interested in you, is not afraid to show it, but is also not attached to that. And that all sounds very vague, but it's like, it's like to like the most attractive thing someone. The most attractive thing is when someone is attracted to you and like, is unashamed of it. And I don't know if that makes sense.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

To you. Yeah. But I guess for the viewers that are listeners that don't have like that many reference experiences, there's a certain, there's a certain quality about. And it goes back to confidence too. And I guess we never really talked about it, but like sexual confidence as well. And it's not just like sexual confidence like in the bedroom or whatever, but it's owning the fact that you are, you know, a man or a woman or whatever, I guess, and others, but that you have, you know, sexual desires and that to accept about yourself. And I'm still doing a lot of work around sexual shame. Like for me, my parents, like, literally, I don't think the word sex has ever come out of their, like, mouths. One at least definitely not like when, you know, when I've been around.

So you were delivered by a stork. There's no, no funny business going on.

There so, yeah, I would definitely recommend, like, viewers, if you have this look, look up stuff about sexual shame, how to dissolve that. And it's an ongoing process because, like I said, like, the stuff that. The conditioning we go through, like, I'm. I mean, I'm 26, and I know, like, a lot of us have struggled with this for longer than, you know, just until early adulthood. So, yeah, that's a whole other can of worms there.

I think that's a really good one. There's a book that I read, not even the whole thing, but just part of it. It's called the New Male Sexuality. And that was helpful. It was like, you know, there's a lot in there and. But it was just the first time. I think it was the first book I'd ever read about this at all and sex and just, like, what you could say and what you know. And I think chapter two had a really interesting title. It stands out to me. To pull it out said something like, let's see here. It's two feet long, hard as steel, and will knock your socks off. The fantasy model of sex, right? And it's just this idea of. And it talks about the making of anxious performers. It was just a really interesting eye opening, like, oh, wow. And. And you might say, well, I'm not having sex, or I need a date first. It's like, no, the reason you're not having sex is not because you're not good enough or because your skin color or whatever you're telling yourself. It's because there is this heavy suppression inside of you. And then, therefore, the signals that you're sending out, because that conversation that's happening in the gym, there's like a social back and forth that's occurring, and then there's much more that's being transmitted on that level below the mind between two animal bodies, like, on a physical level, on an energetic level, on a hormonal level. And there's all kinds of really interesting research and books about, like, women can smell a man who wore a T shirt. I don't know if you've heard about this one, but it's like if they have a man wear a T shirt for a day or whatever, and they get a bunch of men to do it, and then they have women smell it and rate which one smells the best. And the ones that smell the best are men that have more testosterone in their blood, you know, so it's like these things are happening beneath the surface and. And you can't necessarily control. You can't be like, More testosterone now. Right. You. But the way that you do that is you stop the suppressing because then you do embody for men who are. Have a masculine core. You embody your masculine nature more. And, and then there is. And it's not just about dating and sex. The masculine energy is used in, you know, your day and your activities and your action in your work in the world. And anything you want to do is part of that. And it comes up and so that you could have. And that's what kind of what Eben Pagan, you know, is stuff called the elusive obvious. And I would be like, I would watch a conversation occur. This is when I was in college. And. And I'd be like, what is happening? Like, I didn't see all that stuff. And it just looked like this kind of normal conversation and they're walking out of the bar together.

Yeah. I'm like, what?

I don't get it. And it's because of the sexual shame part.

Right.

So glad that you mentioned that.

And, and I would add, it's like as, as men, we get focused. And I meant women too, but it's like we get focused on the micro. It's like, how do I flirt? Is this like, you know, the worst offenders, like, you know, pick up lines, right. Focused on, like, the minutiae of how do I, like, express intention. When we don't realize that, like, naturally we have that kind of energy, it's just so suppressed with the sexual shame that it's like we are afraid to just put that out. And I really can't emphasize enough, like, the inner work stuff that you have to do to unravel, like, all your conditioning and what, like, you're burdening. Right. When. When you're kind of free, you naturally just know what to say. Like, it's like the same way when you're around your friends, right? You can be funny and like. And like charming and like even flirty with your friends. Like I certainly am sometimes. But all that stuff goes away when you're with a woman because you have like, these subconscious blocks that tell you this is not okay. Like, they will think I'm a creep when in reality it's totally normal and acceptable. And it's. It's one thing for me to. And the biggest, like, if, you know, if. If this is interview is about me just trying to dispense as much of my knowledge as possible. And like, what's. What I've found has really transformed me. I would say the biggest thing is, like, you have to do, like, it's the intention you have to deliberately put in the work. Like, for the longest time with Aziz. You know, the truth is, I've known about your peace process for the longest time, but, like, back when I was working and, like, going to the gym and, like, being super busy all the time with important stuff, so to speak, then, like, I was like, oh, I don't have time for this. Meditations or whatever, you know, and then when I actually sit down, carve out the time and do these things with intention, that's when the transformation actually happens.

Yeah. I mean, that's a whole. There's a lot to unpack there in that we think that the biggest results are going to come from the actions I take. And I'm a huge believer in action, as my friend likes to say. I'm always beating the action drum. And your. Whatever you want to call it, your mindset, your energy, your emotional state, your state of consciousness, all these invisible things, the place from which you are coming, when you take the action.

Right.

Determines the results. It's like 98%. And then the 2% is the action, but you still have to take the action. Yeah, but it's like, you know, so, you know, when I'm going over to talk to this person and, you know, maybe a simpler way to say it, which is Tony's language, Tony Robbins, which is motive matters. So how am I coming towards this person? What, you know is this. Am I going to have a conversation with you to prove that I'm enough? If so, your outcomes are already going to be worse for them and for you. It doesn't. I'm not saying you can't have a good conversation that emerges, but it's much less likely because now I'm going to try to control you and how you respond to me so that I feel like I'm a good person. And that's. I spend many years. I definitely spent a long time doing that. So when I was first really shy and then I was like, learning, okay, I'm gonna go talk to people and women, it was very conditional worth and confidence. It's like, oh, she likes me. Oh, I'm great. She doesn't like me. I'm terrible. And so there's a subtle, energetic messaging of controlling that's occurring, and that makes you less attractive. Whether she or the other person knows it, consciously or not, they're picking up on it. And so you can get to that place you're talking about of letting go of, here's me. Who are you? So if you come in and your Intention is to really actually enjoy or see if there's a connection there to enjoy. You might say the same words in those two scenarios, but you're gonna have a whole different outcome and experience. And I love what you were saying about the self acceptance leading into self love. I remember thinking, like, oh, self love means I have to, like, be like, I love myself. I love you, Aziz. I love you. It's like, doesn't work. And then I realized that a really solid, stable sense of self acceptance and self love is almost the absence of something. It's like the absence of the pressure, the absence of the self attack. It's just like, here I am. So I'm not walking around being like, I love myself so much today. I'm so awesome. I'm so great. I just. There's just, like, a baseline of, like.

Yeah.

And if you think about it with a partner or a friend, like, you might affirm them sometimes, but you're not following them around the house being like, I love you. I. I love you so much. You're so great. I love you. It's just kind of like, whoa, let's just be together. Chill out. So you can have that occasional affirming that there's really. There's this, like, stability that comes with that self acceptance.

Yeah, absolutely. It's like that. And that's like the, you know, the deepest level of confidence. It's almost like you're. It's like, almost. It's like a blend of, like, appreciation and humility and the e. Like, I guess, you know, in esoteric terms, the ego just kind of disappears. You know, you are. And it's like your own perceptions of who you are, they almost disappear. It's like you just are a being, you know? So. Yeah, absolutely.

Dude, this is a really insightful conversation. I'm really enjoying this. We're gonna wrap. I'm gonna ask you, is there. You said, you know, if the purpose of this interview is for me to impart as any wisdom that I have, that is the purpose. So thank you. And is there anything else that you'd want to share for someone who is in this process, who is, you know, leaning into their edge, who maybe sometimes feels unsure or discouraged, and anything that you'd want to share to inspire people to on this path?

Man, I love this question so much. And hearing you relate earlier about your stories, about your experiences and the fears that, oh, like, I'm brown. My name is Aziz. And so when women won't like me, it's to realize that this is the Human condition, I would say, like a big part of universally overcoming social anxiety and by like, the transitive property. Also dating anxiety is the humanization of yourself and everyone else to realize that, like, your experience happens to literally everyone. Like, my experience, Aziz's experience. Like all those people on YouTube that are like, you know, quote unquote, dating coaches or, you know, pickup artists or whatever they are. And it's like, you. You only see that. You only see what you choose to see and to realize that your course is a very. Like, you're gonna have days when. When you flip. Like, your self esteem will be high, and other days your self esteem will be low. And that's totally part of it. Like, there might be days when you wake up and you're like, you feel like this will never work. Happens to me. And then there will be other days when everything just flows naturally and it's. It's like. And then there will be like, it's. You know, there's no linear path from A to B. It's. It's all of it. You know, the ups and downs, the celebrations, the successes. It's not even like. It's all just like part like if you look at, you know, a squiggly line, right. That's. That's the way that line is meant to be. And everyone's life is a squiggly line. Your life, my life, Aziz's life. Yeah. And the more you put yourself out there and relate to people, the more you will see that that is the case for everyone else. But the only way you get to realize that is that you have those conversations with people. And it all starts with being real. And I think, you know, you can make vulnerability your superpower. Honestly, you really can. For you, quote, unquote, nice people out there, your sensitivity, you can really make that your superpower. You just have to. You just have to bring your own sense of worth into it. And that's really what's missing. Yeah. And it's like that. You know, it's been a while since I've listened to your stuff on a frequent basis, Aziz, but it's like every time you say it at the very end, you know, make know on a deep level that you're awesome. It's. It's so true. Because it's one thing to understand and listen to stuff intellectually. It's another thing entirely to. To embody that at the subconscious emotional level, because that's really what we are. We're emotional creatures. And then we layer our thoughts on top of that.

And so did I ever tell you this story? I think I might. You might know the story of where I heard where that came from. The know that you're awesome.

No.

Okay, we'll have to end with this. And this will be fun. Who didn't know? It's a great story.

So.

And I. And I totally relate to what you're saying, that knowing it on a deep level, and that's the point of ending with it, is to subliminally, through repetition, get that for me and everyone else, because we all can forget on a hourly or daily basis. You can wake up and not remember the awesomeness that you are being made from the forces of creation that literally exploded out of stars. I mean, it's pretty incredible. It's pretty awesome. Anyway, so I remember I was at this festival with a good friend of mine. We went to UC Santa Barbara together. And this is after college. And I'd actually started to develop my confidence at that point.

Yeah.

And we were sitting down at some. Away from this stage where they're playing some electronic music in the middle of the forest. And this dude plopped down next to us, and he had, like, shaggy blonde hair, was kind of low overweight, kind of sweaty. Just like, he's clearly. He's clearly altered in his state of consciousness, let's just say. And he kind of just sits down, starts bobbing his head next to us, and we're like, okay, cool. You're welcome to be here with us. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, like, no preliminary conversation whatsoever, he's like, I figured it out. And we're both like, what did you figure out? And he's like, okay, there's three types of people in the world. There's people who think that they're awesome, and people who think that they're shit. And both of those types of people are wrong. And then there's the third type of people who know the truth. And those people know that they're awesome. And we paused for a minute, and then we looked at each other, and we were like, whoa, that was really good. I was not expecting that to come out of this guy's mouth. That was profound. And we're like, thank you. And he's like, yeah. And he got up and he just, like, danced off. And that was my only in exchange. So he was like a messenger that came to deliver that to all of us, wherever that was coming from. So perfect way to conclude this. Thank you, Derek. You truly are awesome. And it's so cool to see you knowing that and living that and watching your life in its all squiggly glory progress in the ways that it should. So thank you again for being with us, man. You're awesome.

Thank you, Aziz. And yeah, yeah, everyone, thanks. Thanks for listening.

That brings us to the end of the interview and the beginning of your action step. Time for action. Action, action. Your action step is to take one thing from this interview to practically apply. What's that one thing for you? Maybe it's something that Derek said, something that I said, something that came to you as you were listening. Could be a big change in your life, could be something really small.

And.

Instead of like, oh, let me think about that and yeah, maybe I'll come back and re. Listen. No, like just right now. You could come up with other actions later. But what's one thing that you're going to do? You're going to practice. You're going to apply. Whether it's an outer action or even an interchange of how you think or.

Feel about yourself or the way you.

Relate to yourself, something. What's a decision you're going to make, an action you're going to take from listening to this. So that way we can turn this from just being purely entertainment, the smart person's entertainment, into transformation, into change, real tangible change in your life.

Beautiful.

Thanks for being with me and Derek today. Until we speak again, may you have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkfortheshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to socialconfidencecenter.com.