Being Nice Is Good For Dating & Relationships, Right? with Amber Grubenmann

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy.

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If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you, I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome. Today's episode of the show. Today we're going to be talking about niceness, particularly in dating and relationships. And we have a fantastic guest for that as well. And this is fitting as we get very close now to Not Nice Live three day online immersion. Are you coming? If not, why not? It's going to be a powerful experience. It's going to be a life changing experience and I would love to share it with you. And if you've been in any interest in this whole topic of niceness and think you could develop a benefit from being more bold and authentic and caring less about that, people pleasing and approval seeking, this is going to be a powerful reboot for your whole nervous system, really, and how you approach other people and whether it's with fear or a rock solid sense of confidence. So come join. You can go to draziz.com that'S-R-A Z I Z.com and under the events tab there is a you can click on a link and get the ticket there. So being nice in relationships is good, right? I mean, isn't being a nice person being kind? It does not mean you take care of the person that you're with and you're considerate and you know, if you're kind of a jerk who's like, I don't care about you, all that matters is me, that's bad for relationships, right?

Well, yeah.

And it turns out that there's some pitfalls with niceness and considerateness and conscientiousness and accommodating that can actually be very detrimental to relationships. And I thought we'd bring in the big guns here for this episode. Bringing an expert in dating and relationships. In fact, this is what she coaches people on entirely and has a wealth of knowledge on the subject. So we're gonna be bringing in our guest. Now. This is a recording we did in video, so we're gonna cut over to the audio of that recording. And then at the end, we're gonna come back for your action step. And should you want to see the video version of the interview, you can go to my YouTube channel called get more confidence. And if you're not subscribed to that, I highly recommend that tons of videos that come out there. It's get more confidence on YouTube. Okay, now let's dive into that interview.

Being nice in relationships and dating is a good thing, right? Well, we're gonna find out. We're gonna be talking with guest expert today, Amber Grubenman, who is the host of the women's dating and confidence podcast, a hit show which helps thousands of women, and actually men as well, listen to that show to improve their experience of dating and confidence. And she also coaches women and helps them go from dating to exclusive and relationships with amazing people that they want to be in relationships with. So welcome to the show, Amber.

Thank you so much for having me.

So let's talk about niceness in dating. You know, many people think that it's important to, you know, kindness is going to be important in a relationship, being a good person. You know, maybe if I go the extra mile for somebody, if I'm responsive, if someone messages me and I get back to them right away, if. If someone says, hey, I don't want to do that, I say, oh, no problem. I'm flexible, I'm loving, I'm patient, I'm kind, I'm responsive, I'm nice. That will make me a. Shows that I'm a good person, and it makes me more desirable and likable and lovable. Right. Or is there. Is there some pitfall to that plan?

Yeah, I think yes, but no. So I think both sides are important. So one of the metaphors that I like to give my clients, for example, is that when we are dating somebody new, it's like you plant a little seed with that person, and that seed to grow needs both water and air. And what that translates to in dating is that we need both loving connection, and we also need space, which creates desire in the connection, which gives you time to think about that person, which gives you time to create that chemistry with that person. What a lot of my clients do is they over water the plant. They think plants need water. Let me just throw a gallon of water on this plant that's going to make it grow. And what that looks like in dating is you're texting them all the time and you're doing all of the things that you mentioned. You're being super responsive and super available and super go with the flow and always all about connection. And you're not balancing it out with the other key nutrient, which is space and autonomy and independence and boundaries and those kinds of things that the plant also needs to grow. So I don't think you need to go from one end of the spectrum to the other, where you're being super nice and responsive and all of that, to being completely cold and unavailable and playing games and push and pull and all of that. But there's actually a middle point that we can get to where we're not overthinking everything and playing games, but we're also not just completely giving ourselves over to the really strong desire to over water the plant in the beginning, which is the desire that comes up for most of us when we get excited about somebody.

Yeah, what is that? The over water desire? Does that come from just natural attraction or is it neediness or desperation or what's your sense of that? I think we can all relate to that.

Yeah. Well, I think that most of it is actually just that we get really excited about somebody. Like, you have a great connection with somebody and all of those hormones are. And you're just thinking about them all the time. You want to spend all of your time with them. You want things to move forward more quickly. And there can be an element of that that's just natural when you're attracted to somebody. But then there can also be some of that that comes from our mindset that is not always helpful in dating. So, for example, one of those mindsets that comes up really often for women especially is I don't want to waste my time, like a lot of pressure on this being the right person and not spending three months with somebody who might be the wrong person. And so we try to move through those steps of the relationship and dating really quickly with that person and get it to grow really fast. So some of it can just be the natural inclination. And then the other part is also our mindset that can be pushing that and then also just not having an understanding that connections also need the space and thinking that water is the only thing that the plant needs to grow.

So from the women that you know, your own experience and also women that you've coached, what is the experience from the feminine side of a man who is very nice and pleasing and respectful and polite and cordial, maybe even like reverential or like just really honoring you? Because I think some men might think that is very well, when do women want that and what is the experience that you hear about or have experienced yourself. What is it actually like?

Yeah, I think sometimes that can put a damper on the chemistry that might be building between two people. One of the lessons that we actually go over in my group coaching program is I created this graph and it goes from hot to cold and then there's the warm middle. And the hot guy is the guy who gives you 10%. And there's so much space and that 10% is so good that you're extremely desiring this person. But you're also not really having your needs met in terms of connection and love and the kind of relationship that you want on the other side. And so a lot of women come to me and they're like, I'm only attracted to the unavailable guy. And I feel like when there's a nice guy, I'm not attracted to him. And so they think the compromise is to go to the other side where it's cold and it's the nice guy. And this is the guy who's. You can't even think about texting him before he's texted you already. There's no room for desire or imagining what the connection with this person could be like because he's filling in all of the gaps and he makes it known from date one that he's already decided on you. So there's no sense of like actually building something with this person. They are so available that it actually deletes all of that desire and chemistry that could be building between both of them. And so what I teach women is to have the standard for the in between guy, the guy who has his own life and doesn't lose all of his priorities just because he's dating you, but also makes time for a date every week and you're not like, am I ever going to see this person again? The person who is honest and upfront and bold in the way that he communicates with you. The person who is into you but isn't decided on you just because you went on one date. The person who asks for what they need in the connection for themselves as well. So again, I think it's about finding that balance between those two extremes. And I think a lot of guys who have have noticed that they're too nice in the connection try to jump to the other extreme of being that 10% guy with playing games and a lack of vulnerability and the manipulation techniques that we can find online. But then you're also not creating the kind of relationship that you want.

Yeah. And so with the nice approach that let's Say someone kind of reigns in the over watering, so they got like.

Okay, I get it.

Let me, let me give them a little bit of space. Not to the swing the other side where it's totally unavailable, but a little more space. What are some of the other more subtle things that can come across in the nice approach that someone could become more aware of or might want to change if they're rain, they're raining in the over communication, what else might someone might become aware of that would benefit them?

Yeah, so I call this micro adjustments where you are kind of a chameleon when you are connecting with people. And I know this from my own experience of being the nice girl and valuing somebody's approval of me over living by my values, which is arguably one of the least attractive things that we can do in dating. So for example, when I would go on a date with somebody and they kind of had the more hipster y vibe in their clothing and their style, then I might just choose an outfit that's kind of matching that too because I think that will make them like me better. Or if they share an opinion with me and I completely disagree, I might just shift my opinion to be a little bit softer or more agreeable with that person. And even with bigger topics, like let's say you go on a date with somebody and they say, yeah, right now I'm just looking for casual connections. And it's not. I just don't really think a relationship is the best environment. Like this is something that happened to me on a date. A guy said, yeah, I just really want to grow as a person. And I feel like I can't really do that in a relationship. And a nicer version of me would have said, oh totally, I get that. And not really questioned it or challenged it. And I was like, oh yeah, I totally get that. And I completely disagree. And it was this playful thing. And then I shared my perspective on what a relationship looks like and how you can grow in a relationship and that kind of thing. So that's just one thing that people can do after a date is maybe reflect on where was I not being 100% myself? Where did I make micro adjustments? Did I laugh at jokes that I actually was offended by or didn't think were funny? Did I change my opinion? Did I change the way I dress? Did I change the way I delivered information because I worried the person might not approve of it? For example, playing down something in my job or not sharing stories that I think are really funny about my friends because I thought they Wouldn't think it's funny. So all of those little things that we do that we may at first only notice in retrospect.

Mm, that's super valuable. Those are great examples. And I think that you. You. If a person does enough of those, it can really water down that chemistry and that attraction. Because in a way, it's. It's a false. Maybe isn't a strong word, but it's definitely a departure from a more authentic version of you.

Yeah.

Sort of modulated version that, you know, this is going to be the version that's most appealing and which. Which comes back to that kind of perplexing challenge. It's like, so if I try to be the version of me that I think you're gonna like, it's actually less attractive to you. And so then that begs the question, okay, be. Be me. Right. And that's kind of the whatever, you know, social media meme. Right. You do you be 100% you. And people like. Yeah, they click, like, on it. They're like 100%, and then they're doing like a thousand micro adjustments. Right. So, but what's behind that? Well, behind that is a fear of, like, all right, I'm going to be me. And then when I me, though, I get kind of overlooked. I get ignored. I'm. I'm not as desired. I'm, you know, like, that's a. That's some challenge I've heard from clients. And what do you think's going on there? Are they. Are they being themselves? Or they still be doing the micro gestures and just not knowing it, or is there something else here to discover?

Yeah. So one thing that stands out when you share that with me is the sound.

I don't know if clients made that sound effect. That's my summary of their suffering.

Yeah. And so one thing. But I do think that's interesting because I often think that when people are being overlooked, it's because they feel, ugh. In their life in general. Most often, people are feeling really satisfied with their friendships and their career, and they're feeling a sense of lightness in life, and they're beaming joy, and they tend to just be more playful interactions anyways. Because they feel more positive in life, they are less likely to be overlooked. And so I think that's one key part of it, is, first of all, just check in with yourself about how you feel outside of dating. Like, if you're not talking to anybody, just delete dating from your life. How is your life outside of dating? How are you feeling in general? On a daily basis. Because I definitely know from my experience, having been through different periods of feeling really low or depressed or feeling unsatisfied with my life in general, that my interactions both platonically and romantically, were much less likely to lead to me being sought out in general. So I was less likely to be invited to things because I wasn't really a fun energy to be around. I wasn't really open to people. I wasn't communicating that to people. And then also romantically, I was less likely to look people in the eye. I was less likely to show people my interest and feel good about inviting them into my circle in general, just in connections that I'm having with them. So that was. That's the first thing that I would check in with is what is your energy that you're bringing to the connections that you have?

Yeah. And I think that's one of those. It's sometimes invisible to the person who's doing it. They're not even aware of it. And I think examining that, you know, I think it's an accumulation of things that we're not aware of that lead to these results. And then there's the. What I call lazy brain conclusion of, oh, it's just because I'm not good. There's just something wrong with me. And it's not really investigating the nuance of these things that you're describing.

Yeah.

So let's say someone. Okay. So we've established that some of the ways that niceness in Any other qualities of niceness and why it might not be attractive or might reduce attraction that we haven't touched on anything else that you've. That's coming to mind.

Yeah. So. Well, one topic that I wanted to dig into in general is, so this is kind of like branching out into. You're already dating somebody that you like. And one of the biggest forms of niceness that I see, especially with women, is accidentally falling into a relationship that you don't want in terms of the container of the relationship. So for women, often that'll look like being in a relationship where it's casual or it's a situationship. You're not exclusive or you don't have labels when you really want them and it's uncomfortable. Is that the first time you've heard.

I've never heard that. I like that. That's. That sounds like it captures a lot.

Yeah. So that happens for so many people in general is you're just going with the flow and you don't really want to be too difficult. And you don't want to force anybody to make a decision of any kind that could be uncomfortable for them or cut off other options. And so you find yourself dating somebody that you really care about for three months and then discover that you. Maybe they've been dating other people, or maybe they don't actually see it going anywhere serious, and you're feeling uncomfortable and anxious the entire time because you never set up the container that you needed from the first place. And also what goes with that is that the attraction starts to go when you are not holding those boundaries that you need for yourself in a connection. So one of the metaphors that I use when people are at that point is dating is kind of like meeting somebody on a hike and they're like, you. So you're like, oh, let's walk a little bit together. And then there's a fork in the road. And that can be uncomfortable because you have to ask that person like, so I want to go to relationship peak, and this is casual way. Which direction are you headed? Do you want to go with me? And that can be an uncomfortable conversation. So instead we just start to, like, slow down the walking and like, dilly dally and go in circles and maybe just go on casual way because they just started walking that way. So we go with them and we just avoid that conversation altogether. And then five miles in on casual way, you're like, wait, this isn't where I wanted to be. And you're like, but we've been walking this whole way and you never said anything. So one big form of niceness is not having those crucial conversations at those forks in the road when it comes to what you need or what you want in order to really enjoy the connection that you're in.

Wow, that's really good. I love the metaphor, too. And then maybe some people, as they go down casual way, that they don't necessarily want to go down, they tell themselves, yeah, but there's a. There's another way to get up to relationship peak. Just go to a casual way for 12 miles, and then we'll curve back around and hit it on the back end. It's like, no, no, probably not. Which then highlights the necessity to know what you want.

And that's another thing that I actually was thinking of before our talk today is another form of niceness is just not knowing how you feel. And what that looks like in dating is being obsessed with how the other person is feeling, with genuinely never really considering how you feel. Are you anxious? Are you uncomfortable with something? Do you even, like this person, do you feel pressured? What are your needs when it comes to this connection and really owning that? And one of the things that I tell my clients is that your feelings are your compass when it comes to this hike. It's really important to be in tune with how you feel because that gives you really important information as you're dating somebody about what's going to work for you and which direction you're headed and if you're on the same page with that person as well.

Yeah, I mean, and I think that it's just an interesting dance, too, between. And this is just one form of relationship, but maybe a typical or common dynamic of, like, men who want their. They want to go down casual way, and so their goal is to, like, connect but not have anything serious. And then women who want to connect and then go to relationship peak. And that seems like there's a. That's a common dynamic, and then there's a lot of maybe just like different. Different desires or different goals and how to navigate that. And. And it seems like, you know, part of that is if you're. I just wonder if. Well, do you. How clear is the signal that someone is putting out? And how clearly do you put that signal out? How early do you put that signal out? I think those are. Those are interesting questions because sometimes people say, okay, you know, if niceness is not saying what I want and not doing what I want or being who I want, then I'm gonna. I'm gonna put it all out there. I'm gonna say, this is what I need. So then maybe have a situation on date one, which is like, I need a baby and I need it now. Right.

Or whatever.

So any. Any thoughts on how. How does you know? Or maybe you do. Maybe you express really clearly where you're at and what you want. What are your thoughts on that?

Yes, I really love this topic because they're. I have so many thoughts about this. So I had a client who wanted a baby, and she wanted it now.

Wanted it yesterday.

Yeah. So that's something that comes up typically with women in my work, especially when they are in their mid, early, late 30s, and they're starting to feel that pressure because it's something that they really wanted and they thought they were going to be with the person that they would have a child with by this time. And now they're still looking for a person to have a child with. And so I actually do encourage them to be honest about that, but not in the I want a baby and I want it now kind of way, but just by lightly expressing that desire on the first date. And like, you can ask somebody in a very casual way, do you see yourself having kids one day? And that's all you have to cover on the first date. You don't need to have an in depth conversation of are we going to homeschool them? And what's your timeline for that? And how like, you know that kind of stuff. It's just, are you open to that idea in general? That's something that you want to cover on the first or second date. And when a person does want that and does see that for themselves, that question does not faze them at all. And they may actually be happy that you ask them. And so, for example, this client is now in a relationship with somebody who really wants kids. And she was so nervous asking people on the date and she found that most people were like, yeah, just it was so casual. It wasn't like a big deal to have that conversation. And she said she could also tell with this person that she's dating now just later on in dates, the way he would talk about kids, the way he talked about his nieces and nephews and how it was just not even a question for him in general when the topic of kids came up. But then she also dated some people who were really amazing and they had a great connection, but that person was unsure about kids or maybe a little bit younger than her, and she had to make really hard decisions with some of those people to actually not date them. Because for her it was 100% yes. And ultimately she deserved to be with somebody who also saw that in their future. So, yes, you want to be upfront and kind of bring up those topics early on, but it's really like a sprinkle. Like, you don't have to spend literally more than one minute talking about that on a date. I had a lot more other thoughts, but oh yes, the other thing was with those conversations of what we're looking for, I actually don't tell my clients to bring that up on a date. Like the conversation of like, I'm looking for a serious relationship. What about you said just like that.

By the way, within the first three.

Minutes, you'd be surprised. People do that.

I don't want to waste time. This date is too much time. Let's get to the point.

A lot of people actually have that mindset. They really feel a lot of pressure around creating a relationship. What you want to look for is how is this person showing up? And do I love the way they're showing up, like, do I love our time together? Are they consistent with me? Are they showing up in a way that I would be happy to have this person as a bigger part of my life? And then when you feel like you've seen enough about this person and the way that they treat you and you feel like, you know what, I actually want to move things forward. Like, I see this going somewhere. The exclusivity conversation is a baby step. And so a lot of people think of it as this big thing, like, are we doing this or not? Versus, hey, I really like you, and I want to explore this further. And I think I'd be more comfortable if we were just dating each other. What about you? That's the exclusivity conversation. And that tends to work a lot better for people to just have that little baby step before the big R conversation of just like, deepening the connection a little bit, becoming more accustomed to just dating each other and exploring that further. And then maybe a few weeks down the road, you have another conversation of like, can I call you my boyfriend? Can I call you my girlfriend? And that would be an even deeper integration of like, now maybe let's talk about meeting each other's friends or family or including each other in our future plans, that kind of thing. So it feels like a really big deal to have those conversations at first. So one big shift is just seeing it as that little baby step, and that really helps people on both ends. Even if somebody is a little bit nervous about a relationship, that adjustment is really helpful for them.

That's great. And it's highlighting how niceness is so much beyond that first interaction. Right. And how I really do think that niceness, which, you know, the synonym might be people pleasing or accommodating or how these things actually become way more detrimental in the navigation of dating and then an actual relationship, because it becomes more and more important to know what you want and ask for what you want, be able to communicate in these ways. And so, so much here. I know we need to stop for now, but I could ask even more questions and maybe we will get you back on for even more questions about dating in general. And I think it's great because, you know, you have your finger on the pulse. You know, you know, words like situationship and. And I think there's just a lot of real practical nuance that you're offering. Um, so you do teach the confidence side, but then there's a lot of real, really good, practical, step by step guidance. So if someone wants to go further Definitely give us, you know, how to find out about your show, your podcast and also how to find out about you and the coaching, the groups that you offer too.

Yeah. So again my podcast is Women's Dating and Confidence podcast. It's been 200 episodes now, so we talk about all of the nuances there. And then also I work with women in groups. I have a four month coaching program from dating to exclusive and the next one is starting March 1, 2022. Don't know when this podcast is coming up but they run every four months so if it's already past that date you can get on the wait list and yeah, those are the two main ways to connect.

Yeah, fantastic. That's a, that sounds like a great group. So definitely check out Amber's work and definitely check out the podcast. We there's, it's got rave reviews and people can, you know, just by listening to that you can grow so much. And then of course I, you know, to radically accelerate growth. I think nothing beats coaching and especially immersion in groups. So highly recommend that. Thank you so much Amber for being with us today.

Thank you for having me.

That brings us to the end of the episode almost. But there's just one thing we gotta do, right? Time for action. Action, action. For your action step, I want you to consciously think of one sign of niceness or too much niceness that Amber or I talked about in that interview that you see in yourself. Maybe it doesn't come up all the time, maybe it comes up in certain little ways or subtle ways and just notice what it is. Just one, maybe you came up with a lot, but pick one of them and then I want you to bring more awareness to that notice. If you're really, if you're judging it or you feel shame about it or you're attacking yourself for it and that's not going to serve you at all. There's no way you grow. No one grows through like hating themselves to be better. So you just want to bring more awareness and acceptance to it and just get really curious and say, wow, I wonder how often I'm doing that. Am I doing that outside of romantic relationships too? And just study it, study it for the next few days and if you notice yourself being attacking or stressed about it, just come back to self compassion. Being on my own side is how I'm gonna transform this. And I'm just gonna become curious with love and say what's going on here? Because something really powerful will illuminate just with that awareness. Alright, fantastic. Thanks for being with me today.

Until we speak again.

We have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

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