Being Yourself Is Sexy with Dr. Dan Wile

Coming to you from the center for social Confidence in Portland, Oregon, welcome to shrink for the shy guy helping men.

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Domination with your host, Dr. Aziz. Hey, welcome to today's episode of the show. I'm Dr. Aziz, and today you're gonna learn how being yourself is sexy. Oh, yeah. You know, we often think that we have to do something or become something to be sexy. We have to get more in shape, more fit, more awesome. We have to be more charismatic, more storytelling, more success, more better. Better, better, better. Then I'll be sexy. Right now, I'm kind of meh. I'm not that way. And we think that we have to really shift something deeply. And what I'm excited about today is I'm going to be interviewing one of the leading couples experts in the world and who I think just transformed my relationship with my wife and how I approach relationships in general. But he teaches something that is really powerful, which is that we spend so much time hiding what's going on inside of us because we don't want to look not sexy, not attractive, not compelling, not desirable. But the opposite is true. By actually revealing what's happening inside of us in the moment, moment to moment, you create outstanding connection. You create feelings of love and chemistry and joy. You really know and connect with another person. And ultimately, it's sexier. You feel more turned on. You feel sexier. That's something I've seen again and again and again in my relationship with my wife. You know, it's not what Cosmo says. It's not, you know, the 47 tricks that make your man go crazy. And it's do this with your arm and wear this outfit and do this with your tongue. And all of a sudden, he's amazed. Yeah, no, that doesn't work that way. It's not true. It's just to sell magazines. And what's really true is not that glamorous, but it's, hey, really take the risk and be vulnerable and be yourself and be honest and reveal who you are and help that other person do the same. And you will connect, and it will feel amazing. Not the most enticing article to sell in a magazine. And it's a little more complicated than what most people want, but. But it's really what works, and it produces a deep, deep sense of connection and passion. I, first and foremost can say that I'm incredibly grateful to have learned this stuff from Dan and other people to really enhance my relationships, because I used to be so stuck in it back when I was in the pickup artist days, I used to think that I had to know just the right thing to say at all the right times and not reveal any weaknesses and not talk about the kind of work that I did to create mystery. You know, any of that sound stuff familiar, and there's a lot of people out there teaching this stuff, but it is the exact opposite of what creates a healthy relationship. So without further ado, let's jump into my interview with Dan.

Expert interview.

For today's episode. Our interview is with someone whom I'm really excited to, to speak with. He's a teacher and a distance mentor of mine. Through his books and his trainings, I've learned so much from him. And his name is Dr. Dan Weil, and he is a world renowned couples therapist. He's been working as a clinical psychologist for over 35 years. And he's been acclaimed by John Gottman, who's another leader in the field, who says just how much he's learned from Dr. Dan Weil and how much he continues to learn from him. And he teaches all over the country how couples can improve their relationships. He has a tremendous insight into how people can shift themselves in relationships to improve, to grow stronger. And some of his book titles really just capture his philosophy, which I love. One is after the honeymoon, how conflict can improve your relationship. And that book has been absolutely life changing for me in transforming my relationship. And another one called after the fight, using your disagreements to build a stronger relationship. So there's so many interesting questions that I'm excited to ask Dan here about couples and relationships and shyness and how that all works together. So thank you so much for coming on the show, Dan. I appreciate that.

Glad to be here.

You know, before we get in, I just want to give people a little more of a, of a window into how you work. And I remember the first time I actually saw you was in, because I read some of your books and the first time I saw you was in a video training you have, and it was your collaborative couples approach to therapy. And I remember you were. There was a demonstration you were doing where you had a couple sitting there facing each other in chairs, and you had them talk about something that usually led to a fight. And what would happen is you were kind of off to the side and then the woman would say something like, you know, every time we talk about this, you shut down. And I'm tired of you being, you know, why are you so withdrawn all the time? And you like scurried on your hands and knees to get behind her. And you said, like, you said what she was really thinking and feeling like underneath. You said something like, you know, I'm feeling lonely and scared and I miss the good times that we had together, you know, and then the man would say something like, I'm not always withdrawing, I'm blah, blah, blah. And then you scurried on your hands and knees and got behind him and you said what he was really thinking and feeling. And first of all, I just loved your playfulness and your willingness to just put yourself out there. And I was amazed at how you were able to get one layer deeper into underneath what someone was saying to what they were really thinking and feeling and wanting. And, you know, I would love if. I think you have just such tremendous insight, and I think listeners could benefit so much from hearing more about what's going on underneath the surface. Do you remember the training I'm talking about?

Yeah, I do remember. That's my general method. People are having an argument, but underneath it is a kind of conversation. And in an argument, all you do is attack or defend. And all the warm feelings are hidden down in there somewhere or the longings or whatever it is. So it's possible as an outsider to take a look at what's going on and imagine what soft underbelly feelings are under there that led to this angry statement and then make a stab at them.

And what I'm curious about is because I think there's kind of a. Anyone listening to this show probably falls into one of two major camps, is a number of people are in the place where I was, where they were really held back by shyness and are having a hard time finding a relationship. And then there's maybe other listeners who are in a relationship but are challenged in some way. And I'd love to start with the first group. Let's say someone is shy. They're reluctant to make a move or go talk to someone or ask someone out. Do you have a sense of what might be going on for them underneath, or what's the layer underneath? What are the soft underbelling feelings like, what's happening for that person?

Well, having been a person like that myself, it's. Well, it's sort of a sudden feeling that this person couldn't possibly like you, and suddenly awareness that your anxiety is kind of keeping you from being able to really say anything charming or casual or something that would make the other person comfortable so that you're sort of. I'm sort of noticing myself being anxious and tongue tied. And then that feeds on itself and it's kind of hard to say anything. And then once in a while I might get something out and it seems kind of awkward to me. And so that can discourage me more. And then there can be some women who don't seem to mind that and who talk in a kind of a comfortable way. And so there's. So then I can have some kind of relationship with them where I'm not so anxious, and then I relax some. And then it is easier to Whatever charm is potentially in me to come out in that kind of situation with such a person. Or I have to just wait until later in my life when I get a little bit more confidence. So anyway, it's a struggle and people have a lot of trouble with it. I have a lot of trouble with it. So that's what I think is going on.

Yeah, I think that captures it very well. And that's a common challenge I hear is, you know, when I'm relaxed on some level, I know I'm an okay guy and I have something to offer. But when I get anxious, I am just totally frozen or awkward. And I notice that there's a tremendous fear often about revealing that were anxious. And I'm wondering how that works. Would you imagine in the very. So maybe it works differently when you're in a relationship, but before you're in a relationship, when you're first talking to that person or you're on the first date, for example, is it okay to reveal anxiety then, or does that backfire? What are your thoughts on that?

Boy, I don't know. I do remember seeing a. A person who was quite confident leading a group and he was anxious and he sort of said, you know, I'm anxious. I'm going to take a couple of breaths. And I thought that was endearing. So theoretically, that could be endearing or saying, you know, you're so beautiful, it takes my breath away, and I don't even know how to talk. It could be either. I don't know whether it would come across as daring or whether it would come across as a line or. Or drawing attention to it. So being from the perspective of a person who has that experience, I don't know what it would be. I suppose it's probably better than just sitting there in this performance anxiety state and saying nothing.

Right. So maybe just better to just say it and take the risk and see what happens.

Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, when a person's in this kind of performance anxiety kind of state, it's very hard to take a risk.

Yeah.

Just sort of standing up Straight right there in the situation. And continuing the conversation is a tough part. I suppose you can kind of mobilize yourself ahead of time to prepare to feel that way and then experiment with saying a few things like that. I think it probably be more effective than not saying anything.

Sure. And I think you learn a lot by experimenting, and certainly more by experimenting than by holding back and not initiating at all with the person. So I think that's a great way to learn, is to experiment. And what I'm curious about is, well, geez, I have so many different questions. Let's see, which can be the most. The first one I'd like to get to. Well, you know, there's a kind of a resource available to men online that could be collectively called the Pickup artist Community. And they're not necessarily all part of the same official group, but there's a number of teachers, usually men, but some of them are women who say, hey, I can teach you how to meet women and overcome your fears and become really confident. And, you know, that's where I, when I was first starting to realize that I could maybe change how I felt and address my anxiety, that's where I first turned. And so I listened to some of these programs, and they really. It's almost like a college course in, you know, talking to women. And there's a lot of information about your mindset, which I found really valuable and is what I teach men now. But there was also a lot of stuff about how to be more mysterious and how to not be, you know, how to be an alpha man or dominant in ways that are attractive to women, and how to not. If she's talking or asking you questions, how to not really answer them directly and be able to deflect them. And all this stuff like that, which I was curious your thoughts on. Basically it sort of teaches a man how to be more attractive to women. And my experience was sort of mixed. Like, in some ways it did work. But then I also was really anxious about keeping up this front of this kind of suave guy. And I'm curious what your thoughts are. Just any reactions or things you have to say about that.

All right, well, I hadn't heard about these things, but if it helped you or if it helps a person, that's already something for it. Let me ask about one part. If she asks you a question, you're supposed to not answer it. And why is that?

I don't know if it would be a rule across the board to never answer, but if she says, like, so what do you do for work. Some of these teachers would suggest that you don't say, well, I'm a software engineer at intel, because it's sort of the typical response and would make you look boring in some way, as opposed to if you make a joke or you give her some absurd profession like, you know, I'm a male model or something like that, where it's not. It's kind of a ironic response or something like that.

Okay, well, I can sort of see what you're talking about. So I guess what this would be teaching is how to be interesting and how to avoid the kind of humdrum conversation that bores everybody.

Yeah.

Well, that sounds like something to experiment with. Meaning. Right. Humdrum gets everyone bored and is not very engaging for man or woman. And so experimenting with that is. So I would really consider it an experiment because sometimes when you do that, it's totally counterproductive. You seem kind of awkward, but it sounds like when you did it, it worked.

You know, I actually had both experiences. I think I took the rules to heart so much, and this is where I think there's a major downfall in the stuff that's being taught, is because it might have given me some ideas of what to say and do, which gave me some confidence, but underneath, I still didn't feel like I was acceptable or lovable. I felt still sort of that under, you know, if I messed up, I would lose everything and she would lose interest in me. So I had the experience of sometimes someone asking me what I did, and I gave a kind of a joking response and she laughed and it went. Worked well. But I sort of internalized it as, like, never say what you do. And so sometimes, you know, as it's getting a little more intimate or you're just getting to know each other and it's not time for games, it's just time to be honest. I stuck with the rules and ended up having women get kind of irritated or turned off in a way. So I had mixed reactions. Responses.

Yeah. So ideally then you would have the insight. Conversations can be boring, particularly when you're kind of anxious and you just give the humdrum answer. And so you want to avoid that if you can, but you don't want to come across phony or be phony either. So you keep an eye on how she's responding and adjust and at some point bring her in on the whole thing. Oops. I'm trying to be interesting now, but it looks like I'm just making jokes when it is really a more serious moment.

Wow, that is awesome. And I'd imagine quite rare. I'd imagine some listeners are just like, what? Like you would say that to someone. But that's what I love about your approach and your thoughts is just. It really encourages people to be honest and have the courage to say what's actually happening. Let's pause for a moment, take a brief break, and then we'll be jumping back into our interview with Dan right after this. Hey, what's up, J dawg? Sup, wheezy? Nothing. Hey, man, I just saw this video on YouTube from this pickup artist dude. He says he slept with 40,000 women. Damn. I know. He said, if you want to hook up, you have to make fun of women so they want you. I can dig it. Word. I'm going to try it now with her. Check this out. Hey, how you doing?

I'm doing okay.

Cool, Cool. Your shirt is really big. It doesn't fit you very well.

What a mean thing to say. Jerk.

Yeah, it looks like the kind of shirt a woman who is much fatter than you are would wear. Get away from me. Okay. How'd it go, man? Pretty good. She talked with me for like 30 seconds. Damn. That's a long time, man. Did you get her number? Almost, but then she had to go. Damn. Are you tired of pickup artist tactics and approaches that don't feel genuine? 30 days to dating Mastery teaches you proven confidence building principles to increase your confidence with women, all while being yourself. No manipulative tactics needed. Go to 30days to datingmastery.com to get your copy today.

You know, while you're talking to somebody, you're also having a conversation with yourself about what you're doing and what you're feeling. And so you can pick. You can pick certain parts of what you're thinking, just thinking, and say them. I'm always trying to remind myself to do that because a lot of what I'm thinking is much more interesting and charming and engaging for me, too, than what I'm saying. And I keep forgetting that there's this gold mine of possible wonderful things I could say just in terms of what I'm thinking but not saying. I keep reminding myself to bring the other person in on what's going on in my mind. And it can be quite disarming and endearing. I don't want to bring a person in on everything because some things aren't things that are going to go over well, but a lot more will than I usually think.

Yeah, that's really interesting. I think about that often how we have this filter and that if we were to just turn the filter down a little bit, then there's a lot more interesting things that could emerge, and especially stuff about what's happening in the conversation or how I'm feeling about her or wondering how she's thinking or feeling about me. And I think that can lead to such exciting and rich conversation. And there's something in there that makes it. Maybe we're hesitant to do it even. You said, like, I try to remind myself to do it more. What do you think stops you and all of us from saying more of those things?

Well, here's an example, and it sort of comes from this Woody Allen movie, Annie hall, where Woody and Annie or whatever are meeting each other and they're kind of flirting, but they're having a conversation with themselves while talking to each other. And Annie is thinking, why do I keep saying these stupid things to herself? She's saying that. Where she's being kind of awkward to him. So imagine this. Imagine saying, you know, I'm really wanting to impress you, but I'm feeling. And I want to be charming, but charming things aren't coming out. All right. Now, that's what you'd be thinking. Would you want to say that, or would you not want to say that? Maybe it'd be endearing, but maybe it wouldn't be. Maybe it would be showing your awkwardness. So it's that doubt you've been having about whether this would be a good idea or not that can keep. You can keep some people from saying these things ever. There's another type of person who's somehow freer or uninhibited in some way or has some type of attitude that's like, that important. Who can freely say these things.

Yeah. Yeah.

And the effect either can be to charm everybody or to turn everybody off.

Yeah. And so it seems like you just gets back to that first point. We just don't know. Yeah.

The thing is to experiment, which actually is what you were saying in the advice that you were given. You experimented with that, and you got some successes, and then you learned how to deal with. There were some failures, and so you learned how to deal with those.

Yeah. And I think that is a key takeaway. Is that because we're unsure about how it's gonna go, we tend to err on the side of caution. Perhaps. But then we miss that opportunity to say it. Because in my experience, somewhere along the way, I decided I didn't want to do the pickup artist thing because it felt like I was trying to play a Role. And I wanted to experiment. Well, when I'm in a relationship with a woman, I'd like there to be honesty and just us to be able to be ourselves and open with each other. And so what if I started a relationship that way and I started experimenting with doing more and more of what you were saying? And my experience was pretty, pretty high in terms of positive responses.

Oh, very good.

So it's. I can't say it was 100%. I know it wasn't. But this definitely. It worked a lot better than holding it all in, you know, which actually leads to another question I have. This is getting more into the realm of when someone's in a relationship. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, because something about it maybe brought me back to those pickup artist teachings, and I just didn't like the way it sounded or landed. But. But I was like, I wonder if they're pointing at something and if there's a different way to look at it. So my wife was at breakfast with some friends last week, and her two friends were saying something to the effect of, you know, in relationships, sharing too much mundane life and knowing too much about your partner just eventually kills the eroticism. You know, you have to maintain a mystery in the relationship in order for there to be a sexual charge. And I initially had a negative reaction to that. I was like, I don't agree with that, but I was curious, you know, what are they pointing to? It seems like it's a common sentiment that I hear a lot, and I would just love to hear your thoughts on that idea.

Well, what I like to do is to turn any kind of concern like that into an intimate conversation with my partner. So I'd say, you know, I heard these people who said that, that you need to keep a certain amount of mystery to keep sex alive. Do you think that's true for us?

So you're bringing it into the relationship.

Yeah.

Creating a dialogue around it.

That's right. In other words, it'd be using whatever thoughts you're having in the back of your mind as the possibility of saying them and getting an interesting conversation going rather than just acting on them.

Like trying to be more mysterious or something. That's right.

Or saying, you know, I heard this thing, and so I began to think of all the ways I could become more mysterious.

Yeah.

Now I can imagine a person can say, well, that's not being very mysterious to say that, you know, being mysterious is more to be secretive and something like that. So I guess I am always sort of making the choice of confiding the word I love. I'm glad someone invented that word confide, because. And that's sort of expressing the tender feelings or the vulnerable feelings that you're having. That's the thing that induces intimacy more. Now, whether mysteriousness is better than that, I don't know. I tend to think that that confiding where you're really feeling tends to be generally more inducing a feeling of intimacy, a feeling of openness, a feeling that's when. Of sexual feeling.

Yeah, you know, I would agree with that. And as I'm thinking about it more, I think it's actually, you know, they say sharing too much mundane life kills eroticism. I think that what happens is people are sharing their time together and doing activities together, but they're not sharing those intimate thoughts. They're not sharing what's really underneath. And it reminds me of an example.

That's the distinction. Yes, that's what's important. So the mundane would be, what are we going to have for dinner? Who's going to pick up the kids? But then if you add, you know, we're talking all the time about logistics, you know, I'm kind of missing, you know, the times when we could just. So already you're talking about standing back from the mundane and talking about how you feel about talking about the mundane.

Yeah. And all of a sudden it's no longer mundane.

Right. That'd be my way out of it.

I love it. And that's been true in my experience as well. And you make a distinction in your book between bypassers and non bypassers. And just for those listening who aren't familiar with that, a non bypasser might be someone who can say, hey, let's just go have a good time and make love. And then we'll talk about the problem. Or maybe even the problem will solve itself and we'll just by having fun together, we'll get over some of this challenge. That's the bypasser who can just bypass the problem and connect. And the non bypasser is someone who needs to really talk about it first. And I'm definitely that. And I find that if I hear something like that, it should be more mysterious. And I'm trying to be more mysterious and just trying to bypass. Not only does it not build the attraction and closeness, it actually backfires. I get kind of anxious or tense or somehow I'm irritable and I don't want to be. And then I'm trying to hide that too. And then if I just. All of A sudden it kind of pours out of me. We have a 10 minute conversation. I'm like, okay, here's what happened. I heard this conversation and I thought, I knew you were mysterious. And then I felt, you know, like I had to do this. And then I was irritable about it. And the next thing I know we're like, you know, lying next to each other in bed, really close and just feeling loving and talking. And it's just everything is shifted by being really open.

Yeah, that's the way I work too. I sometimes wonder because there are people who like a certain kind of. What is it? Non bypasser. No, wait a minute. A bypasser. A bypasser who is kind of put off by that kind of talk.

Yeah.

And sort of. Well, like in lovemaking, this is where the bypassing, non bypassing expression came from. And I got this way of thinking about it from my mentor, Bernie Afflebaum, which is that there's a person who, when touched by their partner, forgets all their resentments to the partner and really gets into it. That's the bypasser. Then there's a person who, when touched, immediately thinks of all the resentments and grudges. And so if there's two bypassers together, well, fine. But if there's a bypasser and a non bypasser, if there's somebody there who is thinking of all the grudges and the other one who's forgetting them all, that's not going to work very well. So maybe there are people who work better and feel more sexual if they don't talk. I mean, not being that type of person, it's hard to imagine. But there may be such people.

So that brings us to the end of our show. But there's one last thing that we have to do, which we always have to do, because, you know, real change doesn't occur just from insight, just from new ideas, new information. It comes from applying that knowledge and taking action. And so that's what's going to bring us to our action step. Time for action. Your action step for today is to apply what you learned in this conversation that I had with Dan in your own relationship. If you have a relationship, if you're dating someone, if you're in a relationship, if you're married, take one thing and try it out, test it out. Don't just say, oh, that sounds neat in theory. Really take the action. There's one guy I've been working with for a little while and he's got some conflict in his relationship because he is terrified to Talk about money with his wife. Every time they do, they get into a fight. So what I encourage him to do, I'm teaching some of these things I've learned from Dan, and I encourage him. It's like your homework in between this session and the next one is to have a conversation with your wife. And he keeps postponing it. He's like, I didn't find the right time. And I'm kind of like, I let him go with it once. And then the next week, I was like, okay, something's going on here. Let's take a look at this. Why isn't it the right time? So you have to make the time, find the time, and just take the action. Now, you don't get out of this action step if you're not in a relationship, because what you got to do if you're not in a relationship is to find someone to practice being real with. It could be a friend, it could be a brother, it could be a colleague. It could be your parents. It doesn't matter. Someone you have a good relationship with that you trust and just share. Based upon this interview that I did with Dan, one thing that you learned from him about how to be a little more real, a little more honest, a little more authentic in your life and practice that with a friend. That brings us to the end of our action step and the end of our show again. Thank you so much for joining me. Please go to shrinkforthshyguy.com to check out the webpage for the show. You can call the hotline there. You can send me a message there. You can also go to facebook.com shrinkforthyguy and like that Facebook page and share this with anyone you know that could benefit from it, because we want to reach out and help more people to become more socially free. So thanks for joining me this time. I really appreciate you. Whoever you are who's listening and and connecting with this, I relate to you, and I honor you for taking the time and investing yourself in really growing. And I say this a lot, but when someone's really doing that and they're putting their heart into it and they want to grow and they want to shift and they're willing to do what it takes, then success is inevitable. So I commend you for being with me in this way, and I'm excited to share more with you and to hopefully get to meet you one day. Until we speak again, may you have the courage to be who you are and know that you're awesome. Thanks for listening to shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz.

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