Beyond Introversion with Steve Friedman

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How to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Welcome to today's episode of the show. Today we're going to be talking about a fascinating topic with a fascinating man about introversion. Introversion. What is it? What is it really? What is it not? And what does it mean about you or someone else? If they are more introverted, does it mean that they are a loser, doomed to hermitude or not? And obviously not. And so whether you think you are introverted or aren't sure, you're going to be able to learn more about it. So you can kind of self identify and also some resources, some quizzes you can take that'll tell you more about yourself, but not only just like slap a label on you, but actually give you empowering tools to know how to thrive and succeed and grow and lead and do whatever it is you want to do and not be limited by some idea of who you are and what you're stuck as or what you're capable of. And I love the interview here and it's a very inspiring story. So I encourage you to just.

Let.

Not only what he's teaching impact you in terms of the information, but just get a sense of who he is and how he shows up and how he shares and what might be possible for you in your life. So let's dive right into it. My guest today is Steve Friedman and he's a man who spent 30 years in corporate America trying to persevere, push through and cope in an extrovert world. And as you'll find out in the interview, doing a pretty extroverted job and just pushing through and grinding for many years. And in the last few years has made some fundamental shifts around studying introversion. So much so to the point that he's made that one of his main focuses in life is to teach. He wrote a book about this called In Search of Courage and as a wealth of knowledge about introversion and how it can actually be something that helps you thrive in life. So thanks for joining us on the show today, Steve.

Thanks, Dr. Aziz. Very excited to join you today and chat about introversion. It's a great topic that I think has a lot in common with a lot of your themes. So very excited to be with you today.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is something that I know that you have written a lot about you teach about you experience. And I think people are going to learn a lot about themselves in this episode and how to, you know, whatever. I mean, I think there's going to be a lot about learning about yourself and how to navigate life and then also how to maybe do things live in a way that is more in alignment for you. I think that's a big part of your message. So let's start so people can get oriented to you. I mean, you're the author of a book called In Search of Courage, which we're going to get into, and how people can understand introversion and all that. But just so people have a little bit of a sense of you. I mean, I shared your bio in the beginning here, but more of a sense of you as a person. Like what led you to want to teach about introversion and be doing what you're doing now.

Sure. So, you know, I think some people know what their calling is from an early age. I guess I'm a late bloomer because it took me lots of years to figure that out. A few years ago, I was getting ready to retire from corporate America and spent three decades there, good experience, largely on the business side. And I started thinking about, well, what do I want to do now that I'm going to have all this spare time? And I recall that when I was a kid I used to do a lot of writing. So I thought, well, I'd like to rekindle my interest in writing and just see where that goes. And so as time approached, I started to write down stories, stories about my family life, stories about when I was growing up. Just memories that I remembered. And but as I did that, I found that there was a common thread that connected a lot of those stories that as a kid or even as an adult looking back, I hadn't really thought about that pattern or trend. But it was introversion. And for me, it was a lot of struggles just trying to understand who I was and not really understanding it for the most part, trying to cope in very generally unhealthy ways. And only when I wrote the stories that became my memoir did I realize what exactly was going on. And so I started to learn about it. If anybody is Interested in writing a memoir. It's just a very therapeutic process, and I learned so much about myself. And then I realized as I started to connect with others, that there were a lot of other people out there, not surprisingly, that were going through some of the same challenges that I was going through. And so that's really given me the opportunity to talk to others and share stories. And hopefully along the way, some people find some ways to shorten their journey so it doesn't have to take so long.

Sure. That's great. And maybe you could paint a little picture for us of the. Of the challenges that you were experiencing that you saw perhaps, as introversion.

Sure. I don't think I even heard the word introversion until I was about 18 and really didn't understand it for many more years after that. But when I was a kid, I grew up in a nice, loving environment. I had three older sisters, and as I look back, they were all pretty extroverted, outgoing, very energetic. It was challenged to pull them off the house phone back in those days. And for me, I was quite opposite. So I'd go out and play with neighborhood friends, but in a fairly short order, I was ready to come home and do my own hobbies in my room, read, do things by myself. It just was satisfying to me. My mom just felt like I should be out there with other people, so she kept pushing me out of the door. Go play all day with your friends, and you don't need to stay home, and that's not what your sisters are doing and all that sort of stuff. And, I mean, honestly, she meant well, but what it made me feel deep down inside was I was different and something was wrong, that I wanted to stay home and be more by myself than be like my sisters. And that really sticks with a kid that's, you know, teenager or whatnot, or younger. And. And so that really started me just feeling that some. I was. I was different in a way. Later, when I was probably about 18, I went to a summer camp for journalism. Love the camp. And they happened to give a personality test. And it was the first time I heard of the term introversion. But actually, it said that I was an extrovert, which was a new term to me. But as I understood what it was, it really surprised me. It didn't really fit with me, and it made me actually feel even more different. Because here's this definition of, well, extroverts are people that like to go out and socialize and be the life of the party. I was like, well, that's not me. But if that's what they think I am, then maybe I should be that. I mean there's really something wrong if I can't match that definition. So I think it really threw me off kilter even more. And my work experience and work life just kept me on that track.

That's really interesting and we can explore what that was in a moment. What do you think was going on there that the test had you show it reflected as an extrovert because all personality tests are usually self report. So do you think that there was some way that you were putting down already what you thought or should do or what do you make of that?

I suspect that that's exactly what happened is at that point it'd been a good 10 years of feeling that strain in my family life and personally up to that point. And so I think I probably responded in ways that I felt like I should. The way I was told, taught as a kid that it was the right or normal way. And that's probably how I responded to the questions. And so I got the results that were based on my responses, but I didn't really understand it well enough to know I was tricking the system or that the results were not right. I just knew that something didn't quite match for me.

Right. Yeah. There is a right way to be and that way is different than how you naturally would want to be. And so you got to override, you got to override that natural impulse to have time alone and space and quiet. And so it sounds like you did that which is so common and I'm sure so many people listening relate to that, that there is a judgment, a negative judgment around a kid's desire for solitude, space, alone, time, just play by themselves. And so that can create this tension pretty early on. Sounds like it did for you. And so you go into a career, I'm imagining you chose a career that involved a lot of interaction with people.

Yes. I mean my first desire when I was in high school and thinking about college was I wanted to go be a journalist. I wanted to write. And then my second was I wanted to be. I loved to do numbers football statistics as a kid growing up in Alabama. And so doing something along statistics and math was my second choice. However, my parents, again I think with all the best interests at heart but we were a bit of a struggling middle class family. And so they pointed me more toward the business avenue and said this is a more marketable degree where you can get a job and have a more comfortable lifestyle. And so Lo and behold, as an 18 year old, I entered the university as a finance major, completed my degree and then had to figure out what I wanted to do in life because I had a finance degree and had no great passion to do anything in finance, banking, that sort of thing. Lo and behold, I hired on at an oil company in Houston and retired with them 30 years later. The first jobs were right up my alley. They were analytical, crunching numbers, analyzing certain projects behind the scenes, but a way to learn a lot. I enjoyed that a lot. But as happens in many companies, when you do well, you get promoted. And a lot of companies, including certain in the oil industry, the greatest value seems to be where you can interface with customers. I spent most of my career in the supply and trading organization, buying and selling oil and oil products and working with a lot of different organizations in the company and with a lot in the industry and going to industry conferences and outings and so the whole gambit. And so that took me probably five or ten years of my career to get to that point. And on the one hand I felt successful. I'd done well in my career thus far and was happy about that, proud of it. However, I found that more and more the stress was just very difficult and I just didn't know how to deal with that sort of stuff. I, I figured it was just that I was shy, which I would certainly proclaim I'm a shy introvert. And I just felt like I realized this was not really using my strengths or it wasn't my forte, but this is the path that I had chosen and so I was going to make it work. So I feel like I went to work putting on my mask on the way in the door so I could pretend to be the extrovert that cultural norm supported at the company, did that during the day, took it off and crashed on the couch at night and just tried to deal with all those sort of situations. But each one of them made me more apprehensive and more uncomfortable. But the idea of quitting or doing something different, such a big shift when I had a family to support, was something I was just not prepared to do and, and as a result, I coped with even more unhealthy patterns. I drank a lot, I ate a lot, I worked a lot to try and compensate for what I thought were shortcomings. And as a result, the company thought I was doing a pretty good job. But I was sick as a dog and I would go to the doctor and say, why do I have this rash and sciatica down my, my legs and all sorts of other issues. And he said, well, it's basically it's your nerves and so I can give you stuff to try and cover that up or relax your nerves, but at the end of the day, if you don't change your lifestyle, then things are going to get worse. And that really surprised me. That happened in my 30s and certainly in my 40s. And I still didn't make the change until it really got pretty bad. In my mid-40s, I was continuing to rise in the organization. So in my mid-40s I was a global trading leader based out of London. So I had a virtual team all around the world. So I traveled a lot, met a lot of people, a lot of different cultures. On the one hand it was a fantastic job. It just wasn't the job that I was prepared to do. I drank a lot to try and remedy those sort of situations. And finally on one of my trips out east, I found myself waking up on the floor of my hotel room having been passed out the night before, trying to figure out how I got there with images of a Singapore police station flashing through my head. And I realized I had really reached rock bottom and I had to change something or I was really in for, for an even worse future. So that really led me to. Well, you know, my recollection at the time was I need to change. As I went through that path, which included a job change, coming back to the States and doing another job that was probably less glamorous but still very commercial customer facing. But I realized that, that I didn't actually need to change. I had changed all these years. I pretended to be somebody else. What I really needed to do was get in touch with my true authentic self and do things my way. The last several years in the company, still in commercial roles, but I changed everything. I learned about introversion, I learned about who I truly was. I realized that instead of introversion being curse, which I really felt like it was most of my life, it was a blessing. It gave me all sorts of strengths and perspectives that I didn't know, that many other people didn't seem to have at work. And if I actually was confident enough, I could share those and provide unique perspectives at work and I could become a very successful team leader by using some of my inherent strengths. And it changed my life when I was kind of at the brink of collapse.

Wow, that's a powerful story. And there are so many elements in that story. Just the story itself transmits a lot of insight for people listening about Reflecting on their own lives and just how life calls us to make changes, and they get more severe if we don't listen to them. That calling can become more intense and the consequence of not grows more. And I also. It's such a common theme I've seen in my own life and other people's. You know, it's when the body says no or, you know, when we're out of alignment, when we're not living authentically, and then we're compounding it by maybe coping with stuff that intensifies some of the challenges for our body. But that's where pain or illness begins to emerge in so many ways. Psychological, emotional, physical. So there's so much in there. But so you are. You discovered this led to this discovery of like, wait a minute, something needs to change. I'm going to figure this out. Hold on a second. The whole way I've been living has not been true to myself. And what I love about your sharing is a lot of people I talk with kind of confuse introversion and social anxiety, and they. They sort of use introversion as a reason why they can't fully achieve their goals or dreams in life. And what I love about what you're sharing is, like you said, wait a minute. Actually, introversion means I have strengths, which means unique strengths, and I can use those in leadership or, for example, other places. I love your take on this because it's not disempowering. I think a lot of people do see it as a curse, but it's actually empowering. And I'd love to get into that with you. Just a top level, like, how do you see introversion? Like, if someone who didn't know anything about your work or anything was said, oh, introversion, what is that? What is being an introvert? How would you respond to that?

So I was on a podcast not too long ago, and I had a little bit of a discussion with the host for about 10 minutes before the podcast started. And so we get on the line and we're chatting about. About life or the world and things like that. And then we start the podcast, and one of the first things she says, she introduces me and she says, you know, Steve's here to talk about introversion, and I'm really surprised that he's an introvert because we just had a really lovely conversation. And I thought, this is why I'm here, right?

I thought that meant he would be socially inept. I'm surprised.

The myths and the stigma of introversion still runs very deep in society, but it really, you know, people think that introverts are not social and they lack confidence, and that can be the case. But it's not because we're introverts as much as it's because of how we deal with it and the environment that we're trying to live in and the journey that we're on to try and gain our own confidence and that sort of stuff. And so what I told her was, you know, I love to go out and socialize, I like to go to parties and go out for dinner. But I realized after years of struggling with this in the industry that I needed to do it my way. So going to smaller parties for shorter periods of time, I'm very happy with that. And then afterwards I'm going to probably find a little bit of alone time and curl up with a book or listen to some music. But that's a lovely evening for me. I did realize going to industry conferences with hundreds of people scattered around the room is not my forte. And eventually I figured out how to meet with customers and clients in a more compatible way to my strengths. I think that the bottom line is I think introverts can do anything they want to do. But to me, the key is being aware of your introversion first and then learning about your strengths. So everybody has strengths, right? And everybody has gaps in development areas. But you know, introverts oftentimes I myself would look at everybody else in my workplace and think, you know, I really am not bringing a lot to the table because I'm not the loud voice in the room or the guy with the strong convictions and that sort of thing. But I also do have strengths. I'm creative, I love to learn, I'm a great listener. Introverts tend to be very good listeners. They observe the room, they see both sides of things, and they come up with unique perspectives on how to solve problems and make new ideas. Introverts tend to be often very resilient and empathetic. So everybody is different. But I realized my strengths were I could either fight them as I had for the first several decades of my life, or I could lean into them and try and use them. So how can I be better at meetings or at networking? Well, I can use those sort of strengths to develop closer relationships in a one on one or small group setting. And that helped me to develop better teams and better customer relationships. And I could have gone to a million conferences and I never would have been able to do that. But it was. But it's really embracing our own strengths. And then suddenly the World is our oyster and we can do most anything if we do it our way.

So some of the distinctions around introversion there that you're talking about is preferring smaller group interactions or one on one interactions as opposed to a lot of short interactions in a. With a lot of different people as well. As you mentioned, curling up with a book. So quiet time or alone time would you say? Those are some of the hallmark features if someone's trying to self identify right now as they're listening. And I know you have a quiz, is the quiz around introversion as well?

Yeah, I have a couple of quizzes on my website. Had a lot of people take them because I think it's a way to just learn about ourselves. So one of them is about introvert strengths. Takes about five minutes and you get a report about things on how to grow your strengths and it really I think helps people to identify strengths so often I think we tend to focus ourselves on the gaps and the weaknesses and how we can get better at what other people think we should be doing. And so I think we've gotten great response because people are excited to learn about their strengths and how they can use them more. And so yeah, I think that's really important. I think the, if people are looking for a definition, there's a lot of them out there and I think a lot of them are frankly a little bit incorrect. I mean if you just look in like dictionaries and thesaurus, I'm really embarrassed to say that most dictionaries, even today, you can do that right now, go online to any of the dictionaries and you put in introvert or introversion and it'll come up with things like antisocial hermit icicle, a neurotic. I mean these things are completely off base. Meanwhile, if you put an extrovert and there's absolutely nothing wrong with being an extrovert, but it's got the most glorious definitions. And I think people, they find these definitions maybe not by looking them up in a dictionary, but it's just in society. The reality is what I lean on most is that introversion and extroversion is a continuum. We all can be at different parts of the continuum based on circumstances and who we are. But the best definition is how we derive energy or create energy for ourselves. And extroverts. At the end of a busy day or a long work week, extroverts generally love to go out and let's go have dinner, let's go to a party. It's a great way to meet people. One of my sisters is a big extrovert and she loves to do that sort of thing. And she approaches those social environments by saying, I never know who I'm going to meet or what I'm going to learn by going and talking to people, people I've never met before. And that's her way of re energizing after a long week. Introverts, on the other hand will tend to say, oh, after a long week, what I really want to do is I need some alone time, I need to read a book, write, do some art, spend time with my close intimate family, go for a walk. Those sort of things actually regenerate energy and, and allow us to go on and tackle the things that we want to tackle at work or at home. But even more so just to extend that is, I think the best opportunity is for us to not just re energize at the end of the day or the week, but throughout the day. Because if not especially I think for introverts in a workplace where there's a lot of draining activities, meetings, debates, networking, all things we can do, use our strengths and do very well, but it can drain our energy. And so if we go work hard at it from nine to five, by the time two or three comes around, we're usually exhausted. And so the meetings at the end of the day really don't develop very well. And by the end of the day we're completely exhausted at home. So we need to find those five minute breaks here and there to just re energize. I used to grab lunch by myself sometimes and I think some people thought that was a little strange, but it was my way of taking a break and re energizing. And then I was ready to go for those one and two o' clock meetings. So I think it's just monitoring our own energy level. That's the best definition of what introversion is to me and how we can manage that better.

Yeah, that's very helpful. I like that distinction and that's something that I have seen a lot and there's so much other stuff that people layer onto it. And as you were talking, I actually just looked up, this is whatever Google Dictionary, but I just type in, Google, type in, define introversion. And we get the quality of being shy and reticent, the tendency to be concerned with one's own thoughts and feelings rather than external things. The example quote is we expected our sample to show elevated neuroticism and introversion. Right. So it is, it's a lot of. And I don't necessarily agree with that either. I think that shyness is a different construct than introversion. Extroversion. There's a lot of, you know, probably, if you did a percentage diagram, you know, there's probably more shy people that are introverted, but it's not the same thing. And it's the same thing with social anxiety. Sometimes people, they're afraid to go interact with somebody and they're like, oh, it's because I'm introverted. And I'm like, ah, I don't think so. I think you're, you know, afraid of their judgment. And that could be happening with one on one or with a group. But I think your definition is spot on and I think it's so helpful because you can start to construct your life. And as you're talking, I'm reflecting on my own life and how much I have consciously constructed it to be pretty much continuously energizing as opposed to draining energy and then having to rebuild. And I'm just aware. And for me, the word that really resonates because I definitely am more on the introverted side is spaciousness. And I feel like that's a consideration that I'll have a lot is if I, you know, for example, yes, quiet time in the morning is fantastic for me. And if I don't have that one or two days in a row, I'm a little grindy to begin with, you know, but then even throughout the day, like if some people have a lot of people have some choice in their schedule, like do they, do they book it this way or that way? And I know that it's like instead of appointment, appointment, appointment, appointment, if I do an appointment and then I have like a break in between and then another appointment. Or if I can schedule my appointments to be in the afternoon where a lot of stuff's on the phone so I could be outside walking in the sun as I'm talking, like these little tweaks. All of a sudden a zoom meeting where I'm sitting at the desk looking at someone versus walking and talking with them and then a break in between. And now I'm energized the whole time. And so if I'm aware and even like friendship, even social engagements, like just the other day I had a chunk of time and I was going to do these two work meetings in the afternoon and a friend was like, oh, we could talk, you know, you're free at this time. And it would have meant I leave, I'd talk with my friend, work meeting, work meeting. And I was like, let's find a time to talk, you know, on Monday or whatever, because I just know myself and I know that then I'm going to roll into that meeting, even though it's with a friend, even though I would be energized talking to him. I know that come that third meeting there, the second meeting, the third hour, I'd be struggling to kind of, I'd have to push through something. And that's what I hear a lot about your story. It's like years of just pushing through and ignoring. But if we pay attention, there's a natural flow. It's like you can get into the flow of that energy and then there's, there's endless energy to do things your way, as you put it.

Yeah, I think that's great. I love the spaciousness because I think it is just creating that personal space to re energize and you can do that wherever you are in a short period of time, but it makes all the difference. And I think one of the challenges which many people extroverts and introverts are surprised about, until they think about it, is that many introverts are very ambitious. You know, they have goals and dreams. They probably do think, you know, more and are more introspective than most people. And so they, they really can think of all sorts of things they want to do. You know, they listen well so they can see ideas floating around and maybe they connect the dots that other people in meetings don't. And so they end up with this long list of ideas cluttered in their head of what they want to do either personally or work wise. And that's exciting stuff. And that ambition tends to push not just introverts, but I think it pushes people to, let's go for that. These are all great ideas worth my time. And so suddenly I've got a booked up calendar and I'm exhausted. And so I think the booked up calendar is part of the challenge. And funny enough, we've had over 1200 people take our introvert quiz. And the biggest strength that's common throughout the vast majority of people is I'll call it planning or preparation. A lot of introverts really enjoy scheduling their days out, planning meetings, preparing for meetings, but it's also one of the most underutilized skills. But that's what we, I think need to take homage in, is we can do well in meetings, but it's great if we plan them, understand what the agenda is, prepare for them, have some questions and that way the anxiety going into the meeting is lower and we're re energized beforehand and we can go have that really productive meeting and that we can also take all these things in our head and all these things in our calendar and spread them out a bit. There's nothing wrong with spreading them out because frankly, a busy calendar when I'm exhausted is not worth anything compared to a calendar that has some breaks but allows me to put my full energy into some of these ideas that I want to tackle.

Yeah, absolutely. And so what if someone's listening and they relate to this? And by the way, what is a great place for people to go take that quiz? I'm sure some people listening are going to want to. Where should they go to do that?

Sure. So the best place to go is my website, beyondintroversion.com beyond introversion.com and so on the website, there's a tab for quiz. So you can take our introvert superpower quiz that we've been talking about. I have a leadership quiz. How am I using my strengths at work? That is rather new and getting a lot of interest as well. So those two quizzes. I have a weekly blog on a variety of topics that are of interest to introverts today, including some guest bloggers that come on and provide different perspectives as well. So beyond introversion.com, you can take the quiz. You can check out other stuff that might fit what you're looking for.

That's great. Let's say someone is listening to this and they're relating. They can go take the quiz. And they're like, okay, yeah, I've kind of known this about myself. And maybe they do feel some of that stigma that you're talking about. And so hopefully this is getting cleared in this episode. Just hearing you and I are having this conversation, Both of us identify as more introverted and we're. Look at us. We're not socially inept. We can interact. We can talk to people and be successful. And I really do think it's about learning how energy moves through you and how to harness it and amplify it. But let's say someone's listening and they're like, my calendar's full. I interact with people all day long. I kind of have to for my work. And then they're like, oh, my God, does this mean I have to change my career? And, oh, no. And then there's that panic that can set in. So what advice would you have for someone who is discovering some of these things and maybe does feel like that their calendar is pretty Booked full, and it doesn't feel totally resonant with them. Like, what. How do we. How do we approach that? What would you suggest to someone, maybe even a younger version of yourself? Sure.

So first, I can definitely connect with the person that says, now that I understand I'm an introvert and I'm not comfortable in some of these other settings, I definitely need to change my career. And I would say, as somebody who spent a lot of time thinking about that and thinking that was the right path, there may be situations where that's where you're most comfortable with, that's your calling, and that's fine. But I really think that for all of us, it's really understanding, learning about and understanding what introversion is, what our strengths are, and how we can apply those things. So the message, I think, to many of the people listening, as well as to my younger self, is to learn early. So I talk on one of my podcasts about five different phases of introversion. And the first one is being unaware, which is what I was certainly in my childhood was. I didn't know what introversion was. I just knew I was different. Right then, it's uninformed. So I hear the term. I attach the term to myself. I attach all these negative words and sentiment that floats around in society to myself. And so I'm uninformed and really going deeper into the ditch. It's the curse sort of phase. But then finally something clicks and I start to learn. I start to take. Be more proactive and challenge the myths that are floating around in society and feel like, well, I'm going to learn about this. I don't know what I'm going to learn, but I'm going to learn. And when you learn, then suddenly you find all these strengths and how you can apply them. And that tends to be a rather short period in our lives because it's so exciting to realize it's not a curse, and it's not that I'm doomed or that I have to change my careers. I just need to learn and then start to embrace my own strengths, which is the fourth phase is contentment. Right. So I'm dealing with the same sort of challenges at work, but I'm doing it my way and using my strengths. And then the fifth phase is really what I call flourishing. So it's, you know, now I'm taking all my strengths that I've been practicing, and I'm going to apply it to all those dreams that I have in my life and work that I really thought I would never be able to do because I just didn't feel like I was confident enough to do those things. But I'm going to do everything now. And so I wish my younger self had not spent three plus decades of my life really in the first couple of phases of being unaware and uninformed. But to fast track that, and that's kind of what I've hoped to do through some of my writings and website, is just help people to fast track those phases and realize you can do the same things, but you can do them your way. Yeah, there's a lot of people. To your question about those that have the busy booked calendars, I'm certainly not saying you should wipe everything off and just kind of hang out doing meditation all day. But I do think that if you, as you were saying, if you can put install some breaks in between some meetings, small breaks even, that suddenly your productivity will go up much higher. And so, and really at the end of the day I think a lot of it is quality over quantity. You know, I was a big taskmaster for most of my career so I could end the day with checks on a lot of boxes. But did I really feel like I was making an impact and doing the best job? Really? Not until I started to kind of skinny things down a bit and focus on making quality decisions and really adding my true self into the projects I was working on.

Yeah. And what I love about this is it's nuanced, right. Someone could be like, oh, it's the wrong career, whatever. And there's so much we don't discover anything fully there. There's a lot more nuance and sometimes that's a way of avoiding the little changes that we would need to make that might be uncomfortable. But short example is sometimes meetings I found can be very draining. And I've seen this with clients too. Or not draining. And you might say it's the meeting. Well, there's a lot of factors there. And one of the things that can make a meeting draining is if it's like a bigger meeting, there's a lot of just fill in space. It's not as directed or even smaller conversations, but there's a lot of built in fluff into the interaction and the meeting. It's like how you doing and what's going on here. And for me I found that if I'm interacting with someone socially. Yeah. Then we could talk more about what's going on in their life or obviously if I'm working with a client too. But when it comes to work meetings, I just had to give myself permission to do it my way, which is like, I'm not interested in a lot of kind of cordial back and forth. Like, I'm just like, hey, how you doing? Great. Okay, let's go. And then we want to dive right in. And I have a list of things I want to get to, things we want to complete, make sure we're moving the ball forward. And man, I spent years, like, I got to be nice and sort of Chad in the beginning and let them lead and flow. And man, when I started taking more leadership. And this isn't even meetings where I'm necessarily, you know, the official leader, but I even ask things like, okay, great, what is our outcome? Or what are we here to do? I just bring that forward. And anyone can do that. Anyone can bring it. Even if you're not like the person running it or the, quote, boss, you could say, and you could start to shift the whole dynamic to be way more energizing. That's just one little tip. And in fact, that's one of the last questions I wanted to get to in our time is I know you talk a lot about leadership for introverts, which I think is so great because a lot of people are like, well, I can be a technician, I can be really good at my skill here, but if I'm going to get promoted, if I'm going to elevate in my career now, I got to manage people, and I can't do that. And that's the limiting curse perception of introversion, which is what we're dispelling here. And actually, no, you are not limited. You are not bound. You just need to discover a new way where you can sustainably bring your energy. And that's through your strengths. But I know you talk about leadership and the Ls of leadership. Can you share some thoughts about how introverts can succeed in leadership and how.

Yeah, sure. So again, as you said, I think there's a myth that introverts aren't good leaders because they're not the big voices in the room or whatever. But I think that the world is changing and is not necessarily looking for the guy that comes in and tries to force his agenda, but is really looking for people that can work well together, collaborate, listen. And those are skills that businesses are seeking more. Their customers and clients are certainly seeking that. Their employees are seeking that. And so that is an opportunity or a platform for introverts to step in. So there's four particular strengths that I think really help provide the opportunity for introverts in leadership, I call it learning, curiosity. Listening is the second one. Just observing what's going on and trying to gather information, see the dynamics inside the room that other people are not really necessarily paying attention to. Loyalty, which is really building a team. So being empathetic and caring and thinking about what everybody can bring to the table is a strong leadership trait. And then list making, which is really planning, being organized. And you can get so much more done when you're organized as opposed to just kind of flying off the hip, just doing things as they come up. And with those four traits, leaders are, leaders are good, leaders are in demand. And those that have those traits tend to be some of the best leaders people want to work for. And so I think the opportunity is definitely there. I read a Wall Street Journal article recently and roughly about 50% of the population in the US and worldwide are introverts. 40 to 60% are introverts, which probably surprises a lot of people. Probably introverts more than anybody. But inside of corporations in America, the frontline supervisors are only about 7% introverts, and, and the executives are about 2% introverts. And I think that's just because there's extroverts hiring extroverts in some cases, or favoring those people that seem to be the loudest and most sociable. But those are not always the traits that people want and need in leadership. And certainly companies are trying to be more diverse in so many ways. And trying to be more diverse in the way people think, act, and their personality and, and how they make decisions is, I think, an up and coming D and I approach that companies are starting to pick up on. Leadership is a great opportunity, but I think it's really critical to kind of go through those phases and learn about oneself and our strengths. And then suddenly the idea of being a leader becomes a natural progression for many people.

Yeah, that's fantastic. I think there's so much in there that is empowering and again, shifting some old ideas about what is possible. And I just hear that's what you do, that's what you're here to do. And I am grateful that you've taken these years of challenge and there's how many people lived that whole life that you were describing out and then just lived it to the grave. And here you have done something that's really turning it into a gift that you're sharing and actively putting out there in the world. So thank you so much, Steve, for sharing with us, for inspiring everyone listening here. And we'll have the link to your site beyond Introversion down below. So if people go to shrink for the shy guy and look under this episode, you'll be able to get a link to Steve's website as well as you can. Just also remember it or type it in now on your phone beyond Introversion and take that quiz to discover more and learn about your strengths. I think this is such a great approach. So thank you so much for joining us on the show today, Steve.

Thanks. Thank you. It's been a lot of fun. I appreciate it.

That brings us to the end of the interview, but not the end of the episode. There's something else we got to do before we go. What is it? Time for Action. Action. Action. Right, right.

Action.

Action. Action. So what are you gonna do? I mean, maybe you already listening and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm pretty aware that I'm introverted. So, you know, what are you gonna take from this? Are you gonna shift something in your schedule? I mean, are you gonna just, like, tiny tweaks? Notice. Just notice. You might even start by just noticing some of your patterns. Like, do you create. Where do you create spaciousness for yourself? I think this word's gonna be really helpful for you. And spaciousness can mean many different things to different people, but for me, it means, like, it could be silence. It could be space from other people. It could be outdoors. It could be spaciousness between things and my schedule, like, where can I create and breathe some spaciousness into my life? And even if your life feels totally packed and there's no, you know, no wiggle room, well, start with five minutes somewhere. Maybe you want to. Maybe you're not sure. Maybe you want to take the quiz on Steve's page. So go to beyond Introversion and take that. Or there's something else that's coming to you from these interviews that I do. So when you listen to an interview, what am I going to take from this? What am I going to do? You want to turn it into some sort of action, because that's what sets us free. Fantastic. Thanks for being with me today. Until we speak again, may have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks, and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to socialconfidencecenter.com.

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