Dancing, Hugging, I Love You, And Other Forms Of Expression with Ben Gibson

Welcome to Shrink for the shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Welcome to today's episode of the show. Today we're going to be talking about dancing, singing, hugging, saying I love you, and many other forms that all share one common thread. I'm not going to share what it is yet. That's. We'll build the anticipation there. Speaking of anticipation, we have special mystery guests with us today. Mr. X. By X, I mean Ben Gibson. Welcome, Ben, to the show. The reveal.

Everyone at the edge of their seats.

Hello.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Sit down, sit down. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Dr. Aziz, for inviting me on. I love every conversation that we get to share.

Me too. And today, what we wanted to explore. Well, I mean, I just listed a few right now, but as you're listening, I guess I would ask you to think about what do singing, dancing, hugging, saying I love you. And as you and I were talking earlier, Ben saying I'm angry, showing anger. What do all of these things have in common? And as you ponder on that, we'll take a moment to acknowledge basically how awesome Ben and I are.

The very essence, the essence of us is ultimate awesomeness. That's true.

And you know, the cool thing is it's not just the essence of you and me, it's if listening to this right now, your essence is awesomeness.

Yes, you, you right now. You.

That's right.

Listening in this moment. Yeah. Talking to you.

Well, it's, it's unfortunate that we can get so conditioned in society to sort of see like, well, okay, I'm just one of a bunch of other humans. You know, there's billions of us. So fair. There's too many of us already. And I'm just, you know, I'm not as rich as that one or good looking as that one or I don't. And we forget that you replicate, you came from like one cell that, that knew how to create a human. There was an intelligence in that cell and the chromosomes, it's and you know, and, and you can go further with that. Like that cell, those humans, all the animals on the planet, everything on this planet came about as a result of stars exploding out, heavier elements that then came together to create the Earth. I mean, it's just like, you know, we are, we're the stuff of the cosmos. We're amazing. And in case, just to bring it back to that thread that you were thinking about, the thing that all these words that I shared earlier, actions that I shared earlier have in common is, is there forms of expression, this stardust that you are expressing itself in the millions of potential ways that you can? And what I thought would be fun today to explore with you and me and Ben is how do we give ourselves greater freedom, greater permission, greater ability to express ourselves in all these ways? And maybe that could be an interesting starting point is like, you know, how, how much are you able to express yourself? Where do you feel free to do that and where do you feel more restricted? And Ben, you know, it's really interesting knowing you because as long as I've known you, you've been very interesting, fascinating, but expressive of your, you know, you've been able to express love very openly. Hugs, laughter and dancing as well, which as people might hear in a little bit, that wasn't that. That actually, I guess when I first met you that wouldn't have been the case, but I didn't know it. And so someone might look at you and hugs. Don't get me started on Ben's hugs. So someone might look you and say, that's all that he's always been that way, or he's just such a expressive person in that way. And yet it was interesting to find out as I got to know you a little better, you said actually that wasn't the case. And I had a story because I know you grew up in a religious community that was kind of like, oh, well, they must have taught him, you know, peace, love and unity and all these ways of being expressive. And he must have got it growing up. And actually it turned out that was not the case so much, at least for some of these forms of self expression. So maybe you could share just a little bit of it so people know where you're coming from. You know, growing up, how did some, you know what was taught about expression, especially expressions of affection or dancing or hugging or all these things.

Yeah, well, I do have to admit I have had a fabulous childhood. Really, really blessed. First of all, I do want to give expression to that and acknowledge that I'm so grateful for the childhood and youth time that I have had. And I know that I was able to say I love you to my grandmother very often. She's like the ultimate grandmother, just the ultimate picture of a grandma. You know, wrinkly, white hair, happy, jovial, huggy, loving. So I that saying I love you to her and hearing I love you from her was, was pretty. It was not strange. And I remember writing little cards or letters to my mom when I was a little kid that say, you know, I love you mom. But that's pretty much as far as the I love yous went. I don't know when the hugs stopped. I mean all little, not all. A lot of little children are lavished with hugs or experience hugs from their parents. I know not all because my wife did not experience that herself. But I don't know, after maybe the age of four, five, I don't remember lots of expressions of affection within my family and even within the larger community that I was a part of. Affection was not really a thing. Not to mention dancing. I mean dancing was a lot of. I meet people and dancing is a big part of their life and their culture and it certainly was absent from mine. Dancing, I like dancing. Dancing was super fascinating to me, but especially just moving your body to music, not really a thing at all. So saying I love you was really, it became really, really rare. And hugs were very, almost non existent, very uncomfortable for me. And dancing not even on the radar, hardly at all.

And was it actively discouraged the dancing or was it just you just didn't see people?

No, it just, it just wasn't part of the culture. It wasn't a part of my awareness, like the environment that I was aware of. I don't, I mean, I know people within my community who, they're comfortable, much more comfortable with moving their body to music than I am or ever was. So I, it just, you know, I must have missed that day or something. I don't know. But yeah, at least that's where I come from.

Sure. Well, I just think there can be so much we learn through modeling and we learn what's not necessarily just bad or good or right or wrong. We also just learn what's kind of normal, what you do or what you don't do. And I remember the same thing. I remember the first time I saw my parents dancing. Maybe there was another time, but I'll just say the first time I remember seeing my parents dancing was at my cousin's wedding when I was about 15, 14 years old. And I remember There was that. I remember it because the wedding was a terrifying experience to me because there was going to be dancing there.

That's a great way to instill social habits.

That's right. And actually, I. And my first exposure to dancing that I saw was. It was a dance in middle school in which my parents didn't dance around me. But I also didn't get a message that dancing was bad or wrong. So it's kind of like I got. You know, when in Rome, I got into the environment and all these kids were dancing. I was like, okay. And I just started copying along and actually ended up having a great time until I overheard some kids talking about how stupid dancing looked and how stupid certain people looked while dancing. And those would happen to be the people that I was copying and modeling. And so I thought, oh, dear, I don't want to look stupid. And so at that point, I shut down, and I became utterly terrified of dancing. So flash forward three, four years, I'm at this wedding, and I'm like, we're sitting at the. You know, they're doing the vows and all this stuff, and I'm thinking, like, oh, man, the dancing is going to come later. It's going to be awful. And. And I knew it was going to be bad because at a other dance, you can just kind of be, you know, you can just not dance. But at a wedding, like, I was like, oh, man, people are gonna, like, pull me out on the dance floor and stuff, and I can't, like, leave, because that's awkward. So, sure enough, we're sitting on the dance floor, and everyone, you know, first it's a few people, and then it's more, and then it's everyone. And then my aunt, sure enough is, like, grabbing Matt, like, come on, dance. And I'm like, nah, I'm trying to look cool, but I don't look cool anymore. Because, you know, if you're one of two people sitting out, you're no longer looking cool. And I'm looking over at my cousin, and sure enough, I'm like, okay, my parents aren't going to dance, right? Because I've never seen them dance. And then they just casually walk up and go to the dance floor.

I'm like, no.

And they get out there and they just start doing their moves. And I'm like, what the hell? I've never even seen my dad do those. How did my dad have moves? And I had this strange, you know, block at the time where it seemed like, I just can't do it. I'm Broken, you know, wow, look at my dad move his body. How does he do that? And it's not like they're not, they're not fancy moves. And so I just literally had never seen my parents do it. And same thing for me with the hugging, you know, I know my parents were very affectionate when I was younger, and then I got to some age and I think parents are kind of like, well, you know, you just want to. You don't want to be weird or too touchy with them as they get older. And I remember I heard a really interesting story from this book called Everyday Blessings, which is a phenomenal book about parenting written by Jon Kabat Zinn, who's a meditation teacher. He brought mindfulness based stress reduction, mbsr, a form of secular meditation sort of derived from Buddhism. But he stripped out the, I guess, spiritual elements of it and just made it sort of the mind technique, the consciousness technique, and he brought it to hospitals and it was profoundly helpful for thousands of people or more. So amazing, man. He wrote a book with his wife, who I believe her name was Marianne, I'm not sure. Kabat Zinn. And they wrote this book about parenting. And he tells this story in there about how his kid comes home from college, he was like 19 years old, and he arrives early in the morning and you know, to wake him up, he like climbs. He goes into the bedroom and just like climbs into their bed and lays his body across both of them and like wakes him up by climbing on top of them. And I remember that wasn't even, you know, a huge part of the book or anything, but it really stood out to me. I was like, oh, weird. Like, he's hugging his. He's like climbing on his parents at 19. And it just opened up a whole new paradigm of like, oh, people can like touch and hug. And it's not weird, it's not bad, it's not wrong, it's not sexual, it's not perverted. It's not all these judgments or fears we might have. It's actually a continued allowing of a basic human form of expression. And so I'm curious, you know, as you've reclaimed some of these capacities in yourself, like, how have you done it? Is it just a decision you're going to do these things? Is it one by one? Was it all at once? In one fell swoop? You're just like, I'm going to do all these things. How did you come to be where you are today?

Great question. And before I get to that, I just want to acknowledge as you mentioned this, your realization in reading that story that yes, there was. Like, I grew up in a. And I'm still a part of a fairly conservative Christian community. And there was a fear within me of precisely that becoming too sexual or perverted. And so in an effort to avoid that, then I actively, I actively, like, avoided any thing that could potentially be misconstrued that way or lead me down that path. That was the grounds for really ultimately isolating myself or even actively avoiding these natural, healthy forms of human affection and genuine self expression that are not intrinsically perverted or sexual or evil or sinful or anything like that. And I, you asked, did you do it all at once in one fell swoop, or was it a decision you made? I know that there was, there were some decisions that I made that contributed to allowing myself to be more expressive. And it really was kind of that way. It's. I choose to express myself truthfully and authentically and in a natural, good, healthy way. I think that there was always this fear that, oh, if I do this, then it equals that. And just like your realization and you're reading that book, there was, I don't know if there was one seminal moment that opened it up for me or not, but there is one experience that I would like to share because of the impact that it made on me. And yes, please, it was when I first met. I met a co worker one time and had to do a lot of work to. It was working in technology and I had to move this co worker's computer from one location to another and she was moving offices and it was kind of a big deal. And I ended up having to go back to reconfigure some things and add new things. And over a period of a couple of weeks, I ended up having to visit a number of times. And through those visits, a person can only shuffle papers so often before they start a conversation. Like, how was your weekend? So we started talking and over a few weeks had some really meaningful conversations and they were more meaningful to her than I realized at the time. And then there was a. So we interacted quite regularly and had more conversations which she was really interested in and were very helpful. And they were helpful for me too. I love having conversations just like this. And then I was gone. I went on vacation or was away for a while. And when I came back then I was in the office and went by to say hi and just see how things were going. And she gave me a hug and that was that. I was mortified. I thought, okay, she's coming on to me. This is horrible. I don't want a workplace romance. Like, all these thoughts came to my mind because hugs were not okay. I didn't hug in my family, not really among my friends. It was just this rare, rare thing and always uncomfortable. It's like, how do I hug? Do I. Like, how long do I hold it? Where do I put my arms? Like, you know, all these technicalities. It's like, because I don't want it to be misinterpreted. And it ended up making it so awkward that it's just, okay, I'll just not, you know, it just wasn't what I did. And, you know, she didn't ask. It was natural for her. And I just was like, stiff as a board. And she noticed it right away and was really sorry. She actually apologized and said, I'm sorry, that obviously I crossed a line, didn't mean to do that. And it was so interesting because for me, her acknowledgement of my discomfort made me realize, wait a minute, this doesn't have to be something weird or awkward or strange. And yet it took that awkward and weird, strange experience to bring that realization to me. And so when she apologized, it just made me realize, wait, this is. I do see people doing this. This. You know, I have a really good platonic relationship with this co worker that I. And I value our friendship, and she values our friendship. And it was almost like a point, a decision point. Am I going to allow this to bring an end to a friendship just because I'm uncomfortable with this? Or am I going to choose to change my stance and begin to explore how this expression of authentic affection, how I might be able to embody this better? And so I said, no, you didn't do anything wrong. It's okay. And from, like, from that point, we did occasionally exchange hugs as appropriate. And it really was a decision that I realized I could make. I can choose how I engage in this expression of affection. I choose what I mean by it. I choose what kind of energy to put into this. And I choose to infuse this with the energy of agape divine love, this joy of knowing another person. And I choose to allow myself to express this, and I choose to receive expressions of this openly and authentically.

And, you know, with that declaration or clarity of what it means to you, did that dispel any of the fears or concerns about what someone else might think?

I think those. The awareness was still there and still is, for that matter, but it is together with the awareness of, well, look at me. Look at how I misinterpreted it. Look at, yes, this could be misinterpreted and I choose to give expression to this anyway. And the other thing, the other gift that that experience gave to me was I can be sensitive to other people's reception or lack thereof. I can be sensitive to how other people are experiencing this and I can respect that.

Yeah, yeah, I love that because I think there can be this repression for so long and then there's this reclaiming of like, hey, wait a minute, I can do these things and this is what it means to me. But there's almost a little bit of a militant edge to that or a chip on the shoulder and I don't.

Care what it means to you anymore. Right.

And if you're wrong, you know, I thought I was wrong and now I'm right and you're wrong.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And. Or there can be just like this still kind of preoccupation with like even if I'm not attacking that other person or confronting them, there's this kind of inside my head judging them, like why are they so small minded? And they should, you know, and they.

Should be more open to hugging like I am now.

Right. And I think that that's a sign that we haven't fully allowed given full permission to ourselves because when we do give that full permission, then we start to inhabit our own reality. And I think that's where a lot of the restriction comes from, is we're trying to inhibit some or inhabit someone else's reality. Like, well, in so and so's reality, this is wrong or bad. And that was moms or dads or families or cultures or communities or whatever, a big amalgam of all those things. And then we start to. That's when you were claiming like I'm going to do. It's like I'm choosing, in my reality it's okay to give someone a hug. And this is what it means. It means it's an expression of love. It doesn't mean all these other things.

And yeah, not romantic love. Like it's not restricted to an expression of romantic love.

Yeah.

It's just this joy of meeting and greeting and knowing and interacting and sharing a moment of time and space with another human. Yeah. And I hope, I hope that that's what people experience when I interact with them in any way. And I hope that I communicate that, whether it's through just a conversation or a hug or whatever it may be, that is my intention to infuse that interaction to express that joy and that love as openly, as vulnerably and as authentically as I can, whatever expression that may take.

And I think there was some big turning point for me because I think I was like, okay, restricted. Okay, I'm going to do these things. And it was like a massive repetition. I'm just going to do them again and again and again and again until I get totally comfortable with it. And I found that sometimes that would be the case, and other times I would have total freedom to do the behavior. But internally, I wasn't free. And I think greater and greater levels of freedom have come when I shifted from, on some level, everyone's got to inhabit my reality with me to we can all be in simultaneous, different realities. And in my reality, dancing right now is this. And in someone else's reality, there's a million different things I could do that are wrong in their reality, and they might tell me about it. And that's okay. It really is. And not only did that seem to resolve a lot of the anxiety, it also resolved a lot of the hurt that I would feel, because sometimes I would feel anxious about it and angry, and other times I'd just be like, ow. Why are they so mean? You know, why is someone judging me? And. And I just come back to being able to. It's like, yeah, absolutely. It's okay. In. In your reality that X, Y, Z is wrong, you know, beards are wrong in your reality, and I have a beard, and that's not okay. Or I had that, by the way, too. You had a beard or people didn't like.

No, no, no. I had the belief that beards are wrong. Oh, yeah. Okay, just one more for you there.

Didn't Jesus have a beard?

Yes, there is evidence to show that. Well, not only was it much. I mean, did they even have razors back then? That's a. Did anybody not have a beard? I don't know. But yes, but nonetheless, nonetheless, in my reality, you don't forget Jesus. This is about me.

Yeah. This is about what I learned in my culture.

Yeah, that's literally. That was literally a thing that I had. And when I. Yeah, that's, I guess, another story. But I did start to grow a beard, as many or some of the listeners may know. And. And when I did, there was a lot of, like, kind of shame around it and checking in with people saying, like, is this okay? And it was very interesting. And then I finally realized that, wait a minute. I can, like. I can just have a beard if I want to. There's nothing intrinsically right or wrong about it. And this is what I wanted to express. And it's not putting anyone's life in danger or something. I certainly can do that.

Yeah. And someone out there could not like the beard. Someone out there could. And not only could they not like it, they could be like, I'm going to send you an email and here's like a three paragraph description as to why your beard is wrong or bad. And if you try to read the email and respond to every point about it and if it contradicts itself or whatever, it's so much easier to just like feel that person and see where they're coming from. And they're like, they're in their reality, it's wrong and they really want to establish its wrongness.

Yeah.

And that's, and that's okay too.

Haven't I done the same thing before?

Yeah. Whether I sent email or not, we all done in our heads. We've all done that. And so I think it can just be so much more. And it's not even really about that person. It's about the, the, the state that they're in and the consciousness that they're in.

Yeah.

And if they were in a different state, in a different consciousness, they might notice a very different thing and they might feel love for you regardless of the beard, and might not even notice the beard or might need something totally different. So I think we can just create a lot more space and a lot more freedom for all of us to express, to express more of whatever it is you feel called to express. And it's not only a benefit for you, it's a benefit for others around you. It's a benefit for your family and your friends, obviously, because they get to feel you more, they get to experience your love more. Anyone who knows Ben has spent time with them, they talk about, you know, thank you for your hug, Ben. That was awesome. And so had you inhibited that, had you held that back, you know, all these people wouldn't have these, this experience of love that you're describing. They truly feel loved when they're hugged by you or have a conversation with you or do a coaching session with you. And so, you know, the more that we can express ourselves, in a sense, the more we're sharing our gifts with the world.

Yeah. And can I just insert something here? There are a lot of the people who have expressed gratitude for, for a hug that we have shared also have expressed how uncomfortable it was at first. So the tendency for us to immediately recoil at a Negative expression of something and judge myself, like, oh, that was horrible. Why did I do that? Just because of some immediate or initial reaction that is experienced from somebody else. Sometimes it's useful to just give it time to not take the initial reaction at face value. To respect it, yes. To acknowledge it, sure. But it doesn't. And I may reflect on my actions and examine is this optimal here? Or you know, is there something better I can do? You can do all that. But upon reflection, many times I've come to the conclusion that, no, even given that reaction from the other person, I know that what I did and why I did what I did was coming from a place that I'm proud of. And therefore I choose not to judge myself. I choose to allow that response to come forth from the other person. I choose to allow myself to express myself in the way that I did. And where do we go from here? What's, you know, what's the next step? How do I express my love for this other person in a new way, in a way that is acceptable or fitting for them where they are right now? Maybe it's to give them another hug. I don't know, maybe it's to do something different. Who knows, maybe it just needs to take time.

Yeah. And I mean that's. We talk about the risk or the sense of being upset or discomfort and all those are all potentials. And well, that co worker who gave you a hug is now your wife.

That's right.

Case, I just. Yeah, exactly.

Another big reveal.

That's right. And I had several moments, one in particular of taking the risk to fully express to Candace my love, appreciation, desire and feelings for her at a time when she was not available in my mind when she was married. And I thought, well, nothing's going to come of this, but I want to express this. And I did. And now we're married. So the moral of the lesson of this tale is if you express yourself, you're going to get married. That's what we're saying here. But, but in truth, in truth, the more you can put yourself out there, the more you can be you, the more you can express, shine your light, really, the more you do get to experience more connection, whether that's friendship, love, relationship, family, more. More is shared.

And other people experience connection with you. And best of all, they experience a connection with the real you when you are. We learn all kinds of things as we grow up from our culture, whether the micro culture of our family to the wider culture of where we live or religious community or whatever it May be our work. There's all these cultures that we are exposed to and are part of and learn from and find out what's normal, what's the norms and the standards here and how do we go about interacting with one another. And all of these cultures are not. They're just different ways of doing stuff and it's fine to learn them. I've lived in different countries and gotten to know different cultures and it's really useful and to say, oh, this is how people do this, but it doesn't mean that one way is right and the other is wrong. It's just different and giving space, like allowing for that and also allowing for my different genuineness to be expressed. I remember when I started to, like, I experienced great benefit from, from hugs. Like, I started to realize, oh, there's a reason why these exist and it can be hugely beneficial in a lot of ways. A simple way to express genuine love. So I started to hug my parents in my 30s. That was awkward, but it was genuine and I knew the value of it. And I knew that I wanted to express love for my parents better, like with more variety, with more expansiveness. I wanted them to feel and know that I loved them and appreciated them and love them just the way they are. And that wasn't the norm of that micro culture, but it was real and genuine for me. And I knew the purpose behind why I was going to give them a hug and say I love you. Two things which had faded out of vogue. And I allowed myself to give expression to that. And though it was awkward to begin with, now hugs and saying I love you has become much more of a common thing in our family. And guess what? Nobody's getting hurt. It's not damaging anyone.

Terrible things have not started the falling everyone involved. And there may be even just more of an opportunity for love and connection. Which actually brings us to how we're going to turn this into action. So your action step for today is actually twofold because, Ben, you said something there that I thought was really relevant. It's not just, you know, the sort of obvious form of action step would be to find some way to increase your level of expressiveness. But before we talk about that, the thing you mentioned, Ben, was the reason why, you know, why am I, you know, going to move into something that might feel uncomfortable or, you know, know, changing a norm between the way I greet my parents or express something. It's like, why? So because we want to that why that reason is going to give us the motivation. It's going to give us the fuel to step around that norm or lean into that or be willing to experience that discomfort. So think about why do you want to express yourself more? That's the first part of this action step. What's it going to bring to your life? What's it going to bring to the lives of others? And maybe even beyond that, why does it just feel necessary or right? It might just be that there's. We talked about Stardust earlier in this show, this episode. Maybe there's something about the way that life and consciousness and this whole thing wants to express and experience itself. So you can explore some of the why and then just see what you're drawn to. You might not have to prefabricate, like, what is it? I'm going to do this thing or that thing tomorrow? Or just, why?

What? Where?

Look for those opportunities. Where could I be? You know, just 5%, 3% more expressive in whatever way, shape or form, with a certain emotion, with a certain amount of vulnerability, with the way you move your hands when you talk, with a laugh, with a smile, with a hug, with an expression of love or an expression of frustration or upset, or a dance. And, you know, one of the things that I absolutely love is creating a culture in our family where, you know, if one of us dances in the kitchen, our kids aren't like, whoa, that's weird. It's like, oh, that's what dad and mom do and what we do, too. So we put on a song and want to have a dance party. You know, everyone just assumes he gets in the middle of the kitchen and starts dancing away. And I absolutely love that. And what I love about your stories, Ben, is how quickly things can shift in our lives, in your life and my life and the lives of those around you. And it might seem like, oh, my gosh, it's been this way for 20 years or 30 years or 40 years. You change it. You show up differently. All it takes is maybe two, three times, and people are like, okay, I guess that's what we're doing now.

Yes.

And so you could be a leader. You can inspire others. You can liberate yourself, and you can liberate others.

And when you're grounded in your why, when you know why you're showing up in this way and what purpose you are aiming for, then that gives you the momentum and the fuel and the drive to continue past those first few uncomfortable transition experiences, because they will be anything new and different. Any transition is, by 99% of the time is uncomfortable. So. But knowing that, why that I want to more fully express love or be more authentic, just be more genuine in my interactions with the people I'm with. That has got to when that is the affirm non negotiable because it will bring a deeper level of connection to your relationships that enables you to move past those uncomfortable times to navigate them, to communicate about them in an effective way so that that purpose can really be expressed and experienced by everyone.

Amen. Right on. I love it. Thank you Ben. Thank you for being with me, with us, and sharing not just words of wisdom or insight, but also your experience and being so open and transparent. As always, I appreciate you brother. Thanks for being here.

You're welcome. Aziz, thank you so much for everything, for your authentic expression of yourself and your journey and your wisdom in the world. Thank you for the benefit that it brings to so many and may many follow in your footsteps in this example and in the examples of so many others who are authentically expressing themselves for the betterment of each individual and the world at large. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Shrink for the.

Shy guy with Dr. Aziz.

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