Deep Confidence for Dating & Beyond with Dr. Robert Glover

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence, first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you.

Welcome to today's episode of Shrink for the Shy Guy. Today we're going to be talking about you in dating and relationships. But even beyond that, do you own yourself? Do you know yourself? Can you be clear in who you are rather than looking to someone else for validation, for approval, to give you the thumbs up, like, yeah, you're a good person, or does that sense of knowing come from within? That and so much more is what we're gonna be getting into. In an excellent interview, I had an opportunity to interview Dr. Robert Glover. And any chance I have to talk.

To Robert is a gift.

And so I know that you're going to learn a ton, because I was learning. I was learning a ton just from talking to him in this conversation. And we focus on. He has a newer book called Dating Essentials for Men Frequently Asked Questions faq. But we go way beyond that, way beyond dating for just men, dating for men and women, beyond dating, relationships, too. How does this translate into relationships? And then even beyond that, we. What about these core principles of knowing yourself and being able to take leadership in situations and relationships and in your own life and so much more? And what I love about Dr. Glover is, I mean, he's got 40 years of experience as a therapist, as the author of a international bestselling book called no more Mr. Nice Guy, which was the origination for me of discovering that.

I was a nice guy.

I didn't even know that I joined a men's group. And very soon the facilitator was like, you should read this book. And he handed me no Mr. Nice Guy. So just been a big influence in my life. And what you can tell from this interview is not only does he have a ton of experience, but just a lot of personal wisdom from being willing to go test stuff out himself. And that's what I love in an expert is someone who's not just, you know, academically intelligent, but is he getting out there Is he taking risks? Is he practicing what he preaches? And you will see from this interview, he absolutely does. And if you want to find out more about Dr. Glover, you can check out his website. I referenced it at the end, but it's Dr. Glover-R G L O V E R dot com. I mean, he's written numerous books, he's got all kinds of courses. He does retreats. I mean, if you want to learn from him, he's a phenomenal resource. So make sure you check out his website and let's dive into that interview.

Welcome to the show, Dr. Glover.

Aziz, good to see you again.

Likewise. We were just talking about here before we hit record that one of our intentions for the show is to maybe upset some people.

Yeah, let's just start right in.

Yeah, just go for it.

Let's tell off colored jokes.

You know, this is an hour of offensive humor. Here we go. Yeah. Well, so this is relevant because, as I was mentioning in the intro, but, you know, you're known for a number of creations, but one of the biggest ones is teaching men to be less nice and will really more boldly themselves. And what I'm excited about today in this interview is to explore that in all areas, but also really focusing in on dating and relationships because this is a place that men can really sort of neutralize their themselves and their capacity for attraction.

Right, you said both. Both in and out of relationship, we men can fall into patterns that don't service and don't. Don't serve our partner or the women we might want to be with.

Yeah. And so I think we got to start with that, because if I hearken back to ye olden days when I was young and single and pretty scared of women, they were, you know, like, maybe there's velociraptor lion. Women were slightly underneath that. It's terrifying. And I really was very scared. And their perspective, or what I imagine their perspective of me meant so much about me.

And.

And so one of my ways of dealing with that, other than just pure avoidance, was if I did talk to a woman or approach a woman, especially in a dating kind of intention or context, I was. I was very pleasing. And I'm going to be warm and I'm going to be agreeable and I'm going to be enthusiastic and.

And hide your sexual agenda from her.

Yes. Yes. So let's start with that, because some people might be saying, wait a minute. Yeah, isn't that. Shouldn't you be kind and. And warm and nice and. And not be some jerk And I think that's like a fundamental starting place because it is different. And what you just hinted at there, I think is part of the issue. So what is the down. What is the problem with being nice when you're approaching someone for dating?

All right, well, you know, you and I, this is kind of a field we both have, you know, doven into and written about and published in. And. And probably your listeners probably have a pretty general ide. And, you know, and when I published my book, no more Mr. Nice Guy, you know, I'm sure a certain reaction has been, well, you know, there's already a not enough not nice guys out there. Well, why do we need a book Teaching men to be not nice. And, you know, most of us are fairly black and white, so we think that, oh, if a guy isn't being nice, he's being a jerk, he's being an asshole. He's being, you know, a hurtful kind of guy. And even men reading my book, and you may run into this as well, have a hard time distinguishing. Well, you know, do I just go from this end of the spectrum spectrum to this other end of the spectrum? And, and the things that I teach men is that whether you identify as more, say, the wussy doormat or the asshole jerk, I think both ends of that spectrum are. Are just men trying to manage their anxiety and their shame. And. And there's not a tipping point, you know, when guys say, well, you know, I get. I get I shouldn't be over here, but I don't want to go all the way over here. Where's that middle ground? I'm not a big believer in middle ground. And I don't know where the tipping point is between two dysfunctional or toxic extremes. So just finding just being a little bit less nice or a little bit more aggressive, that's not the answer because both of these guys are just managing anxiety and shame. The nice guy is being more of the. They're both in fight flight freeze mode. The nice guy's more in the flight freeze. Oh, I'll be nice. I'll treat you well. I'll avoid whatever. And. And maybe that what we call the jerk. He's. He's in the fight mode. He's. He's aggressive, and he just. He's outwardly trying to control people, situations with his aggression. The nice guy is subtly and manipulatively trying to control people in situations with his niceness. And so both are manipulators. So we really have to look at this in a different perspective. It Isn't becoming a little more of this, little less of that. It's going up to a different plane. And that different plane, I think has several dynamics, several components. I think part of that is learning to soothe ourselves to where we can take action that scares us rather than trying to manipulate people or situations. I think it believes being honest, it believe it involves being transparent. It involves being what I call differentiated, which is the ability to ask ourselves, what do I want? What's important to me? And then follow through on that. So there's a lot of, a lot of dynamics that go, that help us move from this space down here to this space up here. And one of the beautiful things I, you know, you talk about being a young man dating. Yeah, I, I got married pretty young, but my right out of college is 21. I think that's young. And you know, my, my, my approach maybe like yours was, you know, I would never just directly approach a woman. I would just kind of sit next to a woman in class. That didn't seem too threatening. It wasn't too attractive, but it wasn't too unattractive. You know, maybe I would try to impress her by raising my hand and knowing the answers, you know, to the teach. And maybe I would, you know, you know, volunteer to help her do something or, you know, you just, I call it nice guy seduction. You know, I'll just, I'll be that nice guy and she'll see what a nice guy I am and then like, you know, she'll ask me out or, you know, or, you know, she'll, you know.

Well, the nice guy seduction just to jump in doesn't actually have a coherent plan. I was just joking about this with some friends the other day. I was thinking about how when I was 19 or 20 and in college and seeing women everywhere and not talking to any of them and friends of mine were dating and having relationships. I spent many, many hours in my room practicing the guitar. And I love instruments, I love the guitar, I love the music. But, but there was a big part of me that was like, if I can get really good at this guitar.

That'Ll get you laid.

Laid. But there was no plan in the dot, dot, dot. And I was joking with them. Was I expecting they would like climb up onto the second floor balcony and climb in through my door and take me now as ease. Your, your guitar solo was so good.

Oh yeah, you just rocked that, that stairway to heaven, man. So. Nice guy seduction. Nice guy seduction. I've got, I've got, I've got an equally Good story. When I was in college, you know, you target rich environment, you know, lots of single women and I went to a Christian college and you know, there are they, you know, they were encouraged to get married while there. So, you know, the women are interested, you know, if I wasn't using nice guy seduction of like just trying to be nice. You say there's no plan to it. Yeah, there is a plan. The plan is not piss a woman off in any way and don't be like the jerks we've heard them complain about. That's, that's, that's the totality of our plan, you know, and we'll come back to the sexual agenda in a minute. But if I did ever approach a woman, like, I would think about it for, you know, weeks. Oh, how am I going to talk to her? How am I going to talk to her? And then if I did, if I wanted to take her out Friday night to a show or something on campus, I'd wait till I saw her Friday afternoon and walk up, like tap her on the back from behind and say, I don't guess you'd want to go out with me tonight, would you? And, and you know, she'd be startled and, and, and oh no, I've already got plans. And it's amazing how many women had to wash their hair that night that, that I asked to go do something. And so, you know, and then I would never talk to them again because I think, oh, she doesn't want to go out with me. Now here was my other really big plan. As I said, I went to a Christian college, so they had chapel every day and then you had church on Sunday. It was in an auditorium with like auditorium type individual seats. So here was my plan. Sunday morning I'd go to church, you know, 15 minutes early before too many people were there. And I'd go in about 2/3 of the way up and I'd sit on the second chair from the aisle, leaving a chair open. And I'm just thinking, some woman will come walking down the aisles, you know, see me sitting there and think, oh, I want to sit next to that guy. And, and, and they never did, you know, they came up with a few friends and asked if I could move down or move. But you know, if, if a woman sees a guy with an empty seat right there, she's thinking he's saving it for somebody he's already got. But I didn't think about that. I thought, oh, this is my only chance I got. Someone will just, you know, jump into that seat I was telling this to. To. I tell this story to people, the times. And one guy said, you know what? I used to drive around with the passenger door lock on my truck always unlocked in case, like, you know, I'm at a stoplight or an intersection and somebody wanted to climb in and join me. And I said, yeah, but you don't want those kind of women getting into your truck. You got to pay them. You know, it's not. It's not the best strategy. So this being passive, and there's many.

Reasons, so painful, by the way. I just like thinking back to that place, and it's so desperate and ineffective. And so you have to rely on these more and more almost absurd fantasies because there's not that sense of agency or power of I can create, I can pursue, I can let my desires be known. So I just. As you're. As you're saying it, I just can feel the ache of that. That life.

Well, you can see it in young men, especially nowadays that, you know, so many men grow up raised by single moms, disconnected from their fathers, not playing sports, just disconnected in general. They're on the Internet a lot, and they're reading Internet forums that, you know, oh, here's how you do. Women are out to get you. Here's how you have to be. Here's how you have to treat them. You know, use this neg. Use this approach, use that, use that. And, you know, I think it just makes men even more and more overwhelmed, and we don't know what to do. And there's a lot of factors. You know, the truth is, dating is not in human DNA. We're not wired for it. You know, for a million and a half years, we were communal. You know, everybody had access to everybody. Sexual access was. Was shared by everybody. Mother Nature likes lots of penises and lots of vaginas. It's good for genetic diversity. But for about 10,000 years, when we quit being so tribal and formed what we would now call the patriarchy of people owning things, a few powerful men owned a lot of stuff. All the rest of the guys, you know, had nothing. They worked themselves death for the few, you know, powerful people and had very little, still very little access to a good woman. And even then, whatever connection marriage we had was for economic reasons and often arranged by family. Many parts of the world, you know, marriages are still arranged by family. So the idea of romantic love, of people getting together because we're attracted to each other and. And we think we can bless each other's lives beyond Just pure economic need. That's new. I, I heard, I heard somebody say one time that Shakespeare wrote Romeo and Juliet to show the utter absurdity of romantic love. Oh, we love each other so much, let's kill each other, kill ourselves. And, and, and so even if you go back 60 to 100 years, most relationships, men and women met their partners at church, at school, next door neighbor, my sister. Who's my sister? My wife. Maybe that's a Freudian slip. I don't know. My, my wife was eight out of ten kids. I'm thinking about sisters, eight out of ten kids. Two of her brothers married, two of her friends. You know, that that's how people met and connected. Now, you know, we're out there in this world where everybody wants to connect, everybody wants sexual access, everybody wants to get laid, everybody wants a boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife. But because dating's still not in our DNA, we, we go to all these crazy, unrealistic ways to try to connect. And if you add to that the men that have, you know, social anxiety, you know, just fears, lack of social skills, and, and so in a day and time when we have every tool, we have pickup boot camps, we have all the, the apps where you swipe right. We, you know, we, ironically, with all the information and tools we have nowadays, recent studies have shown for the first time in history since it's been recorded, over half of all adults 35 and younger report not being in a relationship. I mean, not just single, not being in a relationship. And other reports, other surveys have found that over half of all men 21 and younger have not had sex in the last year or ever. And, and you know, that's when men are supposed to be having sex when they're 21 and under. That's when you're supposed to be having a lot of it. So with all the technology, all the information, all the apps, all the hookup culture, all the supposedly availability more and well, let's put it the other way, fewer and fewer people are actually getting into relationship and staying very long and fewer and fewer people are actually having regular access to sex. So we've got some issues out there that just technology alone not only doesn't seem to be solving, it seems to be making it worse.

Well, and to speak to that last point, I mean, there's, there's maybe different challenges. One might be the young man who is, lacks the self esteem and, and social skills to more courageously approach and be real. Then there's another challenge that I see very common, which is there's A number of men that, that I know who are in their 30s, who have opportunity and great potential relationships, might even be in a relationship and they're plagued by a sense of what else is out there. Oh yeah, I have this, whereas I don't have my phone. Here's my. Whereas I have this. I could just. And, and they are confident and good looking and, and have confidence or capability. So it's not like, well, I'm gonna get out there and just flounder. It's like I could flick this and that and in minutes, in hours and days be doing all kinds of things. And, and it really, it's a lot of suffering. It might sound like a high quality problem, but it makes it very hard. And I'm not saying that everyone has to do a certain lifestyle and get married and do it one way, but I see a form of suffering that doesn't seem to end for them because I. What is the end? What's the game plan? It's like, well, maybe when I'm late, oh, later I'll do the relationship thing, but for now I'm just gonna explore. But then when they're exploring, they're not necessarily happy either. They're not like, yeah, I'm out there and it's great. It's just kind of like, oh, I don't know, it's longing for something. I don't know what it's like, maybe what is what you had.

Well, and if you talk to men about dating that are, that are actually successful at it. I was just talking to a guy this weekend at a workshop at my house and he's, you know, he's been really successful dating. He goes, it's a lot of work, you know, you know, getting together with three different women a week and doing, you know, and if you're successful, it's a lot of work. But if, if we again look at the bigger picture and you, you hit on something I think is significant. And again, I, I love technology. I'm not anti technology, but there's ways I think technology has exacerbated a core problem and a lot of this is through social media and I think the dating apps, if you. So here's where I see when I was dating and I'd use like match.com that this was, I was in my, my late 40s, early 50s, before the swipe right apps even came out. They didn't exist back then. I probably would have gotten hooked on those like everybody else. But here's the thing. Let's, let's just Take the women of the world. If there's a single woman out there and maybe even especially a woman that didn't get that a lot of attention growing up. Say I was dating women, you know, I was in my 40s and 50s, so I was dating women in their 40s and 50s, maybe a little bit younger. And, you know, a lot of these women just grew up as average girls. And, you know, you know, they weren't that popular in high school, but then, you know, they kind of come into their own. And now with the online dating and social media and Facebook and Instagram, you know, they're just out there all the time. You're getting befriended, getting, like, getting connection, getting hits and that. That. That almost becomes addictive to a lot of women. I met a lot ofWomen on match.com that if you look at them, they've been on there for years. And I met a lot of women that even though we might be hitting something off, we have two or three dates is going well, It's. You could you kind of see it. They weren't ready to close the lid on that toy box of constant attention and validation, you know, from lots of other men. And so I think for the women that I saw is that, hey, I'm getting lots of attention and validation, which I think for the feminine part of ourself, that's where all our validation comes from, is this external desire, this external validation. Now what I see happen with the guys more often than not is, is this thing they, you know, maybe they get a great woman and she's hot and she's, you know, seems to meet, you know, but if they've been looking at a lot of porn since adolescence, and nowadays, you know, you can just look at, you know, whatever your fetish is, you know, whatever your deepest turn on is, you can just go find unlimited amounts of it, you know, we now live in a culture where, you know, you know, women just wearing their everyday clothes, wearing their Lululemon to the mall, wearing their workout gear. We're wearing, you know, tight, skimpy clothing everywhere they go. Men are just, you know, bombarded, you know, with this imagery. And so men are thinking, hey, I see it in porn. I see it everywhere. Why? Why should. You know, what if this woman I'm with? What if I find a hotter one? You know, I might, if I lock myself down with this one woman and I see another woman, and here's what guys will do while they're, you know, in a relationship, whether it be new or even married, is that they're everywhere they go, they're looking around, seeing, you know, attractive women everywhere. And they keep thinking, if I wasn't in a relationship, I might could be with that woman. I might could be, I could, might sleep with her. Now the truth is, for a lot of guys, I know if they weren't in a relationship, they still wouldn't even talk to these women. They think I might could be with her, but, but in our fantasy world, I might could. And so look, but I'm locked down with this person here. So I, we're, you know, again, I'm kind of dividing this up a little bit by gender, but where I see the women getting the constant external validation. Why would they give that up to just settle down with one person? And I see the guys in the constant what ifs? Oh, what if I get in with her and I see this other hot woman or this other woman comes on to me or I have this other opportunity, you know, I've locked myself down, I can't go for it. And, and as a result, and as you said, you know, it's not that we all need to, to get together or be in long term relationships or get married or anything. I mean, everybody can really figure this out. But what's happened? Getting into relationship is already scary enough. It's already a big enough challenge. I'm, I'm by training, I'm a marriage and family therapist. I've spent over 30 years working with relationship. I've been in a few myself. They're challenging. So if we have this kind of easy out where we still get attention, maybe still get sexual access and we don't really have to do the hard work of getting all the way in and being real and being vulnerable and being challenged and having to work on ourselves to be in relationship. Yeah. Why wouldn't we go take this other easier route?

Yeah.

And again, it is easy. I mean, it's easier, at least in.

The sense that you get to avoid that edge that. What's his. Dr. Schnarch, the also the couples therapist, he calls it the crucible, right, of that, of the relationship. And it's that container that holds you. And what's really interesting is it to me, the metaphor I would use is if someone hasn't really eaten very healthy food, they've eaten a lot of junk food and fast food and stuff. And you say, hey, you know, you could eat this salad and then these roasted sweet potatoes and they're kind of like, but why? And it's like, actually if you do that, it's not just about the taste of the food. You will feel so much different and so much better. But they had never felt that way, so they don't know. And I, I think there's something akin to that in relationship and in being able to really deeply commit at, at the fullest level to a relationship. But I think there's just so much complexity to it because partner selection, you know, is the person, a nice guy who's not really able to really choose an amazing fit for him, emotional capacity for intimacy and authenticity. Right. Because so many people are scared to really do that and haven't built that. So then they kind of live side by side, but they're not really able to go. But I find if you're able to really go there with someone and you are very growth oriented, not just in the relationship, but in your life, because I see that too for men is they're not, they're not finding their edge. They're not passionate about going and doing what scares them in their life to grow. And so they start to feel a little meh. And then it's like, well, my relationship is meh. And so. But if someone is growth oriented, you can unlock this experience. It's my experience in relationship where it is, it is so rich and so deep. And that doesn't mean there's not challenges to overcome, but it's almost like, wow, how good you can feel eating this healthy food. I, I would never want to go back to eating McDonald's and so imagine.

I wouldn't even take my kids there. Right.

So there's something that's possible, but I think it's almost like people like, oh, I've done that relationship thing. No, it feels confining and it's, it's life restricting and well, let's break this.

Down a little bit because you know, I'm with you, I'm a relationship guy, I'm, I'm oriented that way. But it's also again, my work whether, whether it's a marriage and family therapist or later. And, and on top of that, teaching men how to date, how to, how to build healthy relationships from the first moment they interact with somebody. And I'll go back to the evolutionary thing again. Monogamous, long term, sexually exclusive relationships with the opposite sex is also not in our human DNA. We've never done it well. And even with religion forcing it on its culture, forcing it on its family, it, we're not built for monogamous, lifelong, sexually exclusive relationships with the opposite sex. But going back to Dr. David Snarsch. And others, he uses the term, you know, they're powerful growth machines. So I've been saying that for quite some time. Even though a monogamous relationship is not in our human DNA, if we can approach it consciously, it is a powerful personal growth machine. Perhaps like nothing else now, but. But it's scary, as you say. You know, we men don't tend to understand women. Women don't understand us. I tell guys whatever your male mind thinks a woman can do for you is wrong. And I tell women whatever your female mind thinks a man can do for you, it's wrong. So people get together not only with unrealistic expectations of a partnership, they bring their childhood baggage from their earliest relationships, from. From their interactions with their parents and children. You know, we bring media, we bring culture, all the crazy expectation of relationship. Like we're going to fall in love and be in love forever. I don't know anybody that fell in love and was in love forever. You know, even if you love your partner, there are times you don't really like them all that much. There are times that the way they eat gets on your nerves, or the way they breathe gets on your ne, or the way they talk too much gets on your. You know, this isn't going to be easy, but you mentioned the word commit. I gave a presentation a few years ago on the subject of commitment. And if you think about it, we don't have to commit to anything that comes easy. I know people that love going to the gym. My wife's a gym rat. She's happy as two hours a day in the gym. I have to commit to go to the gym. I know it's good for me, like eating that good food. And I know I feel better when I do it, and I'm healthier and I'll live a longer life, but I have to commit to it because it doesn't come easy. So the things that don't come easy or naturally, if we want to get the most out of them and be consistent and see it all the way through, is going to require commitment. Now, when I talk with people about commitment to relationship, I. I grew up in a fundamental Christian church. I have two degrees in religion. I'm not religious anymore. But, you know, the idea of commitment, you know, we tend to think, well, if I tell this person I love them and want to be with them, I have to be with them forever, you know, regardless of. Of if they're a good fit for me or how they behave. But I don't see commitment that way. I see commitment is. I'm going to get all the way in right now. Right. I'm all the way. I'm showing up. I'm being honest, I'm being transparent. I'm speaking my truth. I'm asking for what I want. I'm having good balance, boundaries as a guy. I'm setting the tone and leading. I'm inviting my partner to go into a deeper space with me. That's. That's for me, what it means to get all the way in. Now, here's another issue, and this is something I've been saying for maybe just the last year or so. And it comes out of my own personal experience, but it comes out of my professional experience as well. And, and that is. This sounds. Probably don't sound particularly optimistic, but in my experience, most people will choose their neuroses and their defense mechanisms over love.

Sure.

And I'm not. I'm not going to portray myself as being the perfect partner in relationship, but I can honestly say the majority of relationships that I used to be in, that I'm no longer in was because at some point my partner dug in their heels and said, don't expect me to grow anymore. Don't expect me to evolve anymore. Don't expect me to be decent to you any. I'm. I'm going to be the way I'm going to be because that's the way I've been all my life. You know, I'm going to hang on to my anxieties. I'm going to hang on to my defense mechanisms. I'm going to hang on to my own unavailability. I'm going to hang on to the angry part of me. You know, I'm going to. I'm going to hang. And, and, and that's one of the things when I work with. Because I primarily just work with men now. You know, when I work with a lot of men, they go, you know, why'd she do that? Why. Why did you behave that way? Why? How come even though I'm trying to love her is never good enough and she's still often angry me or she still left me or cheated on me? I mean, there's so many layers and dynamics that can go into these issues. But if our deepest human longing is intimacy and connection, and if what we care for long for the most also has the greatest potential to hurt us, because to have what we want and then have it taken away or not be what we thought it was hurts. And I've kind of come to the conclusion maybe the reason we're here is to get our hearts broke, broken. That means we have to be willing to be vulnerable enough to go for, you know, the goodies. And know that, as Snart says, in every relationship, somebody's going to get left. No matter what goodies come our way, odds are we're going to lose them. I mean, that's a Buddhist idea of impermanence. There's just nothing. Nothing is forever. So what I see with most people, because going back to our relationship with mom and dad and adolescence and early adulthood, we've all been hurt. Hurt, we've been deceived, we've been lied to, we've been cheated on, we've had, we've been disappointed. All of us have. And so what most of us do is we start putting these walls up, these protections up, these. I'm not going to get all the way in again because I might get hurt again because that's just. I know that's going to happen. So now, now it even extends into these, into the gender wars where women are saying all men are this way and men are saying all women are this way, and we got to protect ourselves from getting hurt. And, you know, almost, if you read much online nowadays, you know, women talk about their exes. If, if you, what women say, every guy out there is like a sociopath or a narcissist. And you listen to all the guys out there, every woman out there is a borderline personality or narcissist. And it's kind of like it's turned into this battle rather than just saying, okay, relationships are difficult, they're challenging. Can we get some tools? Can we get some help? Can we, you know, can we, can we, can we find a way to turn them into that powerful personal growth machine, knowing they're never going to be everything we wish they were, but knowing that they might be everything we really need to become mature, differentiated, powerful adults.

Yeah. And I think that's the, that's the frame, right? If, if we're looking at it as. Is this going to be gratifying and comfortable and companion and cozy? Well, sometimes.

Sometimes.

Other times not. And if we don't come in with that powerful frame, but if we do, if this is a vehicle to help me grow. And that's where I think the people that are going to have the most success long term in relationships are going to be not only committed to that relationship or showing up fully. I love that definition of commitment, by the way. It takes out that scary trapped future in which you can never make Any new choices or something, but. But it gives you the opportunity right now to fully show up. I love that definition. But there, if the person is committing to a relationship in that way to really be successful, they. They're most likely committing to their own personal, psychological and spiritual development. And so actually I'd love to. To dive into some of the specifics of some of those tools and ways people can show because I know you've been really studying that a lot and your writing has been moved. You know, some of your more recent books are helping men in dating and how to do that in a very integrated, healthy, mature, powerful way and dispel some of those myths about how a man should be or how nice he needs to be and how the opposite of nice is not being a jerk, but to be really real. So, I mean, you have so many things in your most recent dating essentials for men, frequently asked questions. I'm sure we're dive into a lot of these, but I pulled up a list. I wanted to ask a few things.

Okay, so let's dive in.

You mentioned this is not just for dating, but also for the relationship. You mentioned setting the tone and taking the lead as the man.

Right.

I'd love to hear more about, you know, what does that mean? How does a man know if he's doing that? What does that mean? He says, this is where we're going for a date, honey. Or does it mean something beyond that? That too.

Maybe that and both. You know, this is, I. I'm always very specific in my language. I think words are really important. And so when I say set the tone and take the lead. And I talk with men about this, both in relationship and as single men, just connecting. Now, where it begins with is setting the tone and taking the lead for your own life. One of the things with this, this nice guy pattern is we're always trying to get external validation, trying to get people to like us, approve of us. We're trying to happy and, and so like, you know, in relationship. And I'm a recovery nice guy. So everything I say about nice guys, this is stuff I've done and, and still can fall into a habit. You know, for example, a man asking a partner, you know, what do you want to do tonight, hon? You want to go out? What do you want to eat for dinner? You know, you want to go to show, what do you want to see? And we think we're being loving, we think we're being nice. We're. We're giving our partner options of, you know, letting them make the decisions. But here's the thing I found I've asked women, I said, how does it feel to you when your man says, what do you want to do tonight? Where do you want to go? What do you want to eat? And, and you know, they, they don't like it. In general, women don't like it. Now there are some women out there that do want to be in control of everything. Here's what we're going to do. You know, you take it or leave it. But that's, that's the exception, not the rule. I remember I, I, A few years ago, I taught a one evening course at a local community college where I lived at the time, a dating course for guys. We just came and, and we talked about that, setting the tone, lean. And then several of the guys wanted to go out, eat. So we went to a restaurant near where one of my hangouts, and there's a waitress that I knew and, and she came by to take order and there's probably about six or eight of us guys. I said, jessica, I want to ask you a question. I said, how, how does it feel to you if you're dating a guy and he always comes to you? And so, all right, you want to go out? What do you want to do? Where do you want to go? What do you want to eat tonight? What show do you want to see? And without, without even any other response, she just goes, I hate it. And then kind of went on and taking our orders and I just looked at the guys, right. You know, most women nowadays are in charge of so many things. You know, most if they're, they're not in school, they have a career, maybe they have kids or just household, you know, it's like they're doing all the time. And if the guy says, what do you want to do? It just feels like one more burden we're putting on them that they got to decide what we're going to do. They got to figure it out, you know, work out the logistics, make it happen. Now when I talk with guys, whether they're single or in relationship, about this concept of setting the tone and leading, they, they almost always hear it as, quote, control, because they're nice guys. And what they've heard about from women about all the bad men out there is that they're all controlling fools, right? Controlling narcissists. And so we don't want to be those bad men. We don't want to be, quote, controlling. And so when a guy says, all right, Dr. Glover, I hear you say, take Control. And I go, no, you didn't hear me say that. I did not say that. The only time you'll ever hear me use the word control is when I tell you, take control of your life. You're in charge of your life. Take control of your life. I don't want you to try to control another person. Any situation controls a fallacy, right? You have no control. But here's when I talk about setting the tone and taking the lead, I'm talking about two specific things. One, set the tone and take the lead in your life. What do you want? Where are you going? What makes you happy? So like, when I became single in my 40s and 50s, having been married previously for about 25 years, and like, I filled out my first match.com profile and I'm reading these profiles, these women that just did, did you know, how did they have enough time in a day to do all these things? They did, you know, the, the skiing, the, the, the wine tasting, the trips to Italy, you know, this and that and that, you know, and I'm going, yeah, I trolling out my profile, see what, what, what does my day look like for the last few years, I get up, spend time with the kids, try to make my wife happy, take the dog for a walk. That's, that was my day. And I thought that's not going to really attract much, but, but it's even deeper than that. I didn't have a life. And I realized by doing my first match.com profile, I had to get a life. I had to figure out what made me happy and get out and start living my life. I call that creating my great cakeable life. And so that's how I set the tone for me. I, I, I, I, I love live music. So I started, you know, going to concerts and listening to local jazz, live jazz, and you know, started connecting with men in different ways and coming to Mexico and learning to speak Spanish. And I just, I just started, how do I want to live my life? That made me inherently more attractive to women that, that I bumped into and who bumped into me. So I'm setting the tone, taking the lead for me. And then from there I would just invite the woman to come join me in my great life. Hey, I'm go listen to jazz Friday night. Why don't you come join me? Or you know, I'm going to go do this or I like this restaurant. Come, come, come have dinner with me. Or, you know, I like, I like making this. Come, come have, I'll make us dinner, whatever it Might be I just invited them into my life. Now how that shows up whether you're a single guy asking a woman out, first date, third date, 12th date, doesn't matter. Or in relationship, I suggest all this just means show up with a plan, you know, don't, don't, you know, wait for her to figure it out or say, show up with a plan. Say, hey, how about Friday night? Let's, let's go get a bite to eat and go see this movie. Now she can say, mariah, what do you have in mind for dinner? So I was thinking, you know, Chinese. And she didn't say, well, I don't know, I had Chinese for lunch today. You know, maybe Italian, you know, yeah, I could do Italian. But let's go get, go hit that Italian place and we'll go check out this movie. And so you got a plan, right? You move forward. So you give it a starting point. It isn't like you're going to control and do it my way or the highway, just start the ball rolling. And. Which is the exact opposite of forcing her to go into her decision making mode. So this is not control. It is about you living a great, exciting, interesting life, whether you're single or in relationship and inviting a great woman to come hang out with you and join you in that great life. And so just you lead that as if you lead yourself and say, hey, you know, let's go get a base, let's go to a baseball game on Saturday, or let's go camping or let's do this. And I know with my wife, she loves it. My wife's a strong, strong woman, but she doesn't like it when I say, you know what, what are we having for dinner tonight? What do you think she likes back? I was in the shower just where I got on the call with you, and I thought, I think I'm gonna go see if she wants to go eat at this one place that has these really great brisket tacos. And, and I, I know she'll say yes, and, and so, but I'm gonna, instead of saying, what, what are you thinking about for dinner? I'm gonna go say, hey, you want to go to Sonora Grill for brisket tacos? And, and I, I know she's gonna say yes, and if it isn't what she wants, or she'll, she'll offer up an alternative because she's a strong woman, she's not gonna just go because I said, let's, let's go do this. So just, it's a starting place. And a discussion can go from there, but somebody's got to get the ball rolling. So I tell guys, get the ball rolling. And. And my sense is once you do that, the woman's going to come enjoy being in the. In the, in your great cake of a life. And I often say a great woman will be the icing on your great. But you got to have a great cake in order for a great woman to be the icing on top.

And that's the lead that you're talking about, right? It's the taking leadership of your own life. And what's really interesting too here is to think about masculine and feminine qualities or energy, and that we all have both inside of us. But some of the qualities of masculine energy might be clarity of focus, drive towards a goal, the plan, the outcome, achievement. Those are some qualities. And so, yes, women might do that at their work or whatever that day, or they need to manage all the kids or whatever. So there's a nice. It's such a beautiful opportunity for you to provide that, hey, let's go do this. And she can just relax and say, okay, lead. And obviously, I think if it's a mature masculine, it's, I'm leading. And I'm also aware, like, hey, you know, I care about you and, and I want to know how you feel too, versus that, that side. So I love that distinction. But as you were talking, I was remembering how scary it felt to me when I was young and I started to learn, I mean, I was just dismal and dating. A lot of the stories that you were talking about, you know, being in the amphitheater, waiting, that was me. And tapping a woman on the shoulder, kind of spooking her, like, whoa, who is that emitting all this fear? And anyway, so I started to learn about this when I was 21. And one of the things I came across was, yeah, be more assertive. Let her know, this is what, you know, let's do this. Instead of saying, do you can you want to? Maybe it's like, hey, let's do this. And even that sounds so casual when you say it. But to me, it was a. It was a whole sea change. It was almost a role. Like, I'm less than her. How dare you talk to your superior that way?

Yeah, yeah.

And. And it also fit in with this. The nice guy almost takes a sense of safety and pride in. I'm not one of those bad guys who bosses people around. And. And so it yours. My sensitivity was set so high on that dial that even just saying hey, let's go get some tacos. This evening at this place felt like bossing. And so I had the idea, well, if I were to do that, she would react negatively. And then of course that would be shameful. Everyone would say, wow, he. What a bad guy he was. But is when I really started to experiment with what you're talking about, I was shocked to discover that there was this little invisible dance that's occurring between masculine and feminine where she was just. She would. They were more enthusiastically a yes than whenever I did all of the of passive following. What do you want questioning so I can really as. As for some people it might sound so easy and obvious to start implementing other people if it seems really out there and dangerous, my advice would be to really test it for yourself. Because there's an invisible language happening beneath the surface and also beneath the cultural conditioning of how you're supposed to be that that just works. And people plug into it. She'll plug into it, you'll plug into it and it'll feel good.

Well, let me give an example of that. And you know, we can talk about this in polarity, masculine feminine energies. And as you said, we all have masculine and feminine side. We have a masculine, that's the doer, the penetrator to get things done. We have the feminine that's the connector, the receiver, the seeker of love. We all have that. And yeah, if we're kind of more in our feminine of wanting approval when we approach or connect with a woman, it polarizes her into her masculine where she has to be the. The doer, the decider. And most women can do that, but they do it enough in life they don't want to do it in relationship. They can, but doesn't mean they want to. And so an example I give guys will say, well, how can I create this polarity or something that I call positive emotional tension. And my theory behind that is that the feminine in us has to experience emotional tension to be attracted to and aroused by the masculine. And the problem with that is most men that you and I work with don't like emotional tension. So we're not going to do anything where there's tension, but the feminine needs it.

Masters of producing all tension.

Yeah, let's, you know. Well, us guys, you know, we even our sporting events were, you know, the. One of the few places we go for tension. They have clocks on them. You know, there's a start and ending time to them. You know, we just can't take that much. And we really don't want it. In relationship, we want everything locked down, smooth, predictable, no. No surprises, no set, you know, so one of the things was, well, how can I. How can I do this? How can I create it? Now say, here's. Try this. Tell the woman you're with whether you're on a date with her or is your partner. Tell her, wait for me, I'm going to open the door, open her door. Getting into the car, open your door, Getting out of the car, open the door, going into a building, leaving a building. And. And yes, the majority of women can open their own door, and most have done it their entire lives. I remember when I started teaching my mother, I'm going to open the door for you, mom. My father was dead by this time, and. And my mom said, you know, if I was waiting for your father to open my door, I'd still be waiting, you know. I said, he was already dead. But a woman taught me this. Really. I. I went on a date with a woman that I met, I think on match.com and she was visiting in the US visiting her parents, but she lived in Germany and her parents were American, but her dad is military, so she was born and raised in Europe. And so I went on a date with her and she went back to Germany, and, and we correspond. He said, why don't you come visit me? And I go, why not? I've never been to Germany. One date's good enough, you know. So I went to visit her, and she worked for an airline. And so we flew to London for a day or two and sightseeing. And about halfway through, you know, this trip, she stops me. She said, I need to know, are you going to open my door for me or not? Nice guy. Oh, I did it wrong. I'm in trouble, you know, which way should I go? Should I, Should I not? You know, which way? And she just said, I don't care, open it. Don't open my door, but just tell me what you're going to do, because sometimes you'll open the door, sometimes you don't. I don't know, should I wait or should I just open it myself? And so I. I didn't have to think about it. I said, I'll open your door. From that time on, I've trained every woman in my life to wait for me to open the door. Women I've dated, partners, my granddaughter, my mother. And yes, they can open their own doors. But what I found is it communicates to the feminine part of a woman. I can pay attention. I can be conscious. I'm A provider, protector. I'm a warrior. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm the hunter. I'm, I'm out there paying attention to your well being. And, and you can be the princess, the queen. You, you can be, you know, you can relax into this. And again, women can open their own doors. So this isn't something like you can't open your door. I have to do it for you, for you. It's more like, it's a consciousness and it creates that polarity of a doer and a being done to a doer and a receiver. So I, I teach them. And, and so like my stepson opens the door for his mother. Whenever, wherever they're around, my, my stepdaughter waits for me to open the door. My granddaughter was the only one who wouldn't wait. But that was back when she was 4 or 5. She just turned 16. So, you know, she, she now, you know, waits for me to open her door. And she likes it. But I only had one experience, and I like to tell the story, one experience where a woman resisted that. And I, I, I met a woman again, probably on mash.com, and it said, she's also danced. And I was dancing at that time. So we connected and I said, hey, pick a place near where you live. I'll drive over there and meet you. Let's go get, you know, a coffee. And so we did, and I was hungry and I said, hey, we're in your neighborhood. I'm gonna go get a bite to eat. Would you like to go with me? And she said, sure. And I said, all right, you can pick out a place for her. So we went to my car and I unlocked it, opened the door, and she went and got in the car. And we pulled up to this little diner a few blocks away and I put my hand lightly on her legs and wait for me. I'll come open your door. And I mean just that kindly. And she jumped out of the car. And before I could get around the car, not only she jumped out of the car, shut her door, she made a beeline to the front door of this little restaurant, this diner, and was in the door, door. And we get in and get a table, and she's sitting across from me and she goes, I just need to tell you I don't like being told what to do. I said, I don't want to tell you what to do, but if you hang out with me, I'll open your door. And so I don't like being controlled by men. I said, I have no desire to control you, but if you hang out with me, I'll open your door. And that kind of went around two or three times. And I just kept repeating the same thing. I don't want to control you. I don't. I don't want you to tell you what to do, but if you hang out with me, I'll open your door.

Door.

So anyway, we had got a bite to eat, we left, and she again raced out, you know, the door of the dog.

Not opening my door.

Not on my. Not. Not opening my door, but. But she had to wait at my car because I had the key fob. So I. I let her in, you know, close the door, take her back to where her car was parked. She jumps out again. So I'm driving home, thinking, another one and done. But next day, I get an email from her, said, robert, you know, maybe we got off on the wrong start, but I'd like to see you again. Again. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna try an experiment. She doesn't like being told what to do. She don't like being controlled. And I don't want to control her. I really don't. So I wrote her back, and I said, okay, how about next Thursday night, meet me at this restaurant at this location at this time. We'll get some tapas. We'll. After, we will walk up the hill to Century Ballroom. We'll go dance for a little bit. I've got something early the next morning, so it will be an early night. And then, you know, I'll take you back to your car, and, you know, we'll go from there. And she said yes to all of the above. So, you know, this is me setting the tone and leading, saying, we're going to do this, this, this, and this. And she agreed to all of them. So we. She comes in, we meet in the restaurant, and she starts again. You know, maybe we got off on the wrong foot. I just don't like being told what to do. I don't like being controlled. I said. I said again, I don't want to control you, but if you hang out with me, I'll open your door. And so I pay. When we go to leave the restaurant, she waits, I open the door. We go up to the hill. I probably gave her an arm, you know, to lead, you know, up to the. The. Walking up a few blocks to the Century Ballroom. And we get. And she waits for me to open the door, and we go in. And then for an Hour or so, I lead her all around the dance floor. You know, I'm, I'm setting the tone and leading. She's thoroughly enjoying herself. And I said, all right, I gotta go now. I'll walk you back to your car. So we leave and I open the door and we get back to her car. And before, you know, I could tell her good night, she puts both arms, her arms around my neck, my shoulders, wraps her leg around my leg, sticks her tongue down my throat and starts dry humping me right there on the sidewalk. And I said, I think this is as far as we can go on a city sidewalk. So when you said, this goes even beyond culture, experience, there's something about that, that polarity, just my calmness, my firmness, my leadership, my unflappableness, and me not wanting to control her leader, that even though she was resisting, as she submitted and relaxed and opened into it, she was aroused, she was turned on, it made her feel good, it attracted her to me, and she wanted more, more, more of that thing. It, like I said, it was beneath. It's. It goes down to that evolutionary level. It made her feel safe, it valued, it made her feel like she was with a conscious man that was paying attention, could look out for her, and that was arousing. And so this is just a little example of how consciously setting the tone and leading without controlling anybody can be such a powerful turn on and attraction to a woman. Is every woman going to be the same? No. But again, that's the only woman I've ever had even come close to resisting that leadership. And in the end, she was liking it.

So. Yeah, well, once she could really let herself relax into it and appreciate and enjoy it, there was something there, you know, beneath the idea of what it means or what I should or shouldn't do. And so that actually highlights something that I want to bring attention to. But then hear your perspective on the flip side of it, which is testing. So, you know, there's a, a pattern that people have noticed that seems to be that when someone's coming together, people are dating, there's a little bit of testing. You know, who is this person? What do they like? Some of it's conscious, a lot of it's unconscious. Right. So there was some testing going on there. She's testing, is this guy, whatever her past experiences were, maybe the guy that opened the door, did that sort of thing, was also very overbearing. And now she's like, ah, so she's testing you. Is this guy actually mature and able to give or is it just a weird control thing? Right. So she tests you. Sometimes women are testing men. Do they have a sense of integrity or are they just gonna flop over and be like, whatever you want, Like, I'm a noodle. Right. So there's that testing. And then though, you also talk about testing the man, testing for a woman's nature. So, yeah, that was really interesting because a lot of the stuff that people just look into, dating advice and teaching and stuff, Stuff. It's a lot of, like, how to pass the woman's test as a man. But I'm. I'm curious of flipping that around.

Like, what are you.

Because I. A big thing that I like to highlight with clients is becoming the selector.

Yeah, the decider.

Yeah, you are the decider. And first of all, that comes first, core from self esteem and self confidence. Because if you're like, oh, who am I? Then you've already lost. Right. But you come back to that sense of creating a great life, being the leader of your life, developing that confidence. Confidence. And then when you go or seeking and putting yourself out there, it's not just who's going to like me and what can I get, it's what do I really want? And I'm going to decide. And so let's talk a little bit about testing for a woman's nature and what you mean. Yeah.

And, you know, my approach to teaching men how to date is probably contrary to about 98% of the dating advice out there for men. Men. I'm not a big fan of pickup. Not a big fan of red pill. I don't think it's us against them. I don't think, you know, we got to go trick women into wanting to be with us. I don't think there's magic pills that make all the tens out there want to take their clothes off for us. You know, just. Is that a thing?

That's a. That's a. That's a marketing.

Yeah, there's. Yeah, I. I mean, I'm seeing like testosterone pills. No, the pill meaning more like this. This Magic bullet. Probably a better word. Yeah, no, the magic that we won't go into that.

You know, where would one find said pill?

Use these three text messages to get every woman instantly hot and wanting to be with you. And we, we dumb men, you know, fall for that all the time. You know, and it's just. It's just marketing ploy. But, you know, a lot of people are making a pretty good living telling men, you know, just do this pickup, Use this pickup line, send this text message, do this thing, neg her in this way, be unavailable for seven days, do all this, you do, and then this. Make every woman, you know, the hottest women desire you. Now what? I borrow a line from David Data. I heard him say the workshop one time. He said, choose a woman who chooses you now first. That sounds like what we're giving her, the power. But then it dawned on me. Wait a minute. I've been chasing women in the past who hadn't chosen me. I've been, I've been married to women who quit choosing me during the marriage. And I thought, you know, it really makes sense. It makes more sense to walk through an open door than pound on a closed room one. And that's what most dating advice is. Oh, see that really attractive door over there? Go pound on it. It's locked, it's bolted. There's probably no way you're getting in it, you know, but, you know, go pound on it anyway. I'll teach you the secret knock, you know, that kind of thing. I'm a big fan of, of responding to the signals of interest and attraction that, that women send me that are already noticing me, noticing the way I walk the planet, noticing the way I carry myself, myself. And I've met a lot of interesting women and had a lot of good sex from walking through open doors of opportunity, choosing women who chose me. Now here's the thing. If I tell guys, you know, every, you know, again, so many men I work with have bought into this pickup ideals where you see the hottest woman out there and you walk across the room and try to do this thing to get her, to get her to choose you.

Which is all about mostly is about validation, right? Well, it is because me then, I'm the kind of man who is great.

I'm, you know, it boosts my ego and guys will see I'm with this hot woman. But here's the thing, you know, it makes her the decider. And this is a woman that probably has men approaching her, hitting on her, talking to her all the time so she, you know, she doesn't have to pick anybody and who you know, because she has unlimited resources. So, so guys, you know, when guys, especially in the red pill world, talk about the alpha and the beta and say, we're red pill, we're alpha. But every time you approach a hot woman because you want her to pick you, you've already made her the alpha. You're the beta in her eyes. You're the one down seeking her approval. So what I teach guys is you know, attraction involves so much more than just body parts. You know, what's her, what's her genetic makeup, how much money she spent on, you know, augmentation, your makeup or clothing, moving. And you know, we wouldn't go pick any other relationship. You know, you and I were talking a little bit. I, five years ago, when we talked, I didn't know what was wrong with me, but I had a tumor blocking my small intestine. And you know, when finally found out what was wrong with me, you know, do I go find the best looking doctor I can find to take that tumor out? No, I go find the most competent doctor I can find. You know, if I need my car worked on, do I go looking for the best looking mechanic? No, I go find the most competent, competent mechanic. But then, you know, we think we want to be in a relationship with somebody. Do we go looking for the most competent person to be in a relationship? No, we go looking for the best looking one. And looks have absolutely nothing to do with competency of relationship. But again, we guys have just swallowed this red pill that oh, we can get these hot women. But no one ever says what really is the advantage of getting the hot woman. Nobody ever says that, that it's like it's assumed. We all know, we all know it. There's inherent value in being with a hot woman. In my experience. Hasn't always gone so well, and I won't go into that. But you know, if you've dated or been in a relationship with super attractive woman, you're probably not still with her for a number of reasons, right? But you had to be with her back then until all these other reasons got in the way, right? So here's a deal. I tell guys the purpose of dating is not to get a girlfriend, it's not to get laid, and it's not to get the hottest woman. That'll boost your ego. The purpose of dating is to find out what is a woman's nature. If you're gay, what's the guy's nature and how does he fit into your great life. And I'd say women the same thing. That's your purpose of dating, is not to get the guy to like you, not to get him to spend money on you is to find out what is his nature and how does that fit for you? How does that work for you? For you. And to make this even more challenging, that's why, that's why I really preach conscious dating of using dating not as a way. How do, how do I get this woman all excited and interested in me and want to take her clothes off. But how do I find out who she is and how she'll fit into my life? So when I was dating, first date was almost always a real casual kind of date. Let's go get a coffee. And I'm going to find out if she, to me, was a cool enough chick to want to see her again. If she passed that test, well, we'd go on another date that involved a little bit more. And I'm always watching. Does she have a sense of humor? Is she intelligent? Is she available? Does she treat people well? Does she have a bunch of horror stories about her exes? Run from that, because you. If you get with her, you'll be one of those horror stories about and one of her exes.

At some point, you might start as a hero, but you will be.

Yeah, you'll. You'll end up. And you'll. I've been with women that, you know, I. I dated, waited for, you know, periods of time that, you know, began with all these horror stories. After a while, I started having empathy for her exes. I'm going, this woman's hell on wheels. Maybe that guy wasn't so terrible. Maybe she brings the worst out in people. And. And, you know, and then she. Oh, they did this to me. So I as I got to know women and date them, I take them to listen to jazz music with me. One thing I often did, I like baby baseball. So I'd say, all right, we're gonna go catch a baseball game this weekend. We're gonna take public transportation. I wanted to see will she get on a bus with me and ride a bus, and then we're gonna go to the ball game. And I'm not gonna have tickets, but I'm gonna talk to a black man on a bicycle with a cell phone, a scalper, and buy the, you know, the best tickets I can and negotiate the best price. I want to see does she enjoy that? And then when we're in the ball game, do we have a good time together at the ball game. At some point, I'm gonna take her camping with me because I like to camp. I'm gonna find out what's her nature. When I took my. My present wife with me camping for the first time. She's Mexican, grew up in poverty, so we go camping up in Washington state. We're in a tent, and she goes with a smile on her face. Oh, this is just like growing up poor Mexican. You guys call it camping. But, you know, this is just like, you sleep outside on the ground. You, you don't have a shower, you don't have a toilet, you have no hot and cold water. You cook over a fire. This is just like, you know, my life. And she liked it, you know, so she and I love camping. You know, we still love camping together. And so you test what is her nature. Now for me, a couple of things I watch for. You know, is she emotionally stable or is she like up and down, angry, always getting her feelings hurt, always something bothering her, always complaining. Is she generous? Oh, man, that is such a turn on to me. If a woman's generous, if she sees somebody like my wife, if she sees an old woman, old man, you know, struggling to cross the street, she will do a beeline to them and take their hand and cross them across the street. You know, here in Mexico, a lot of poor people. So if there's somebody begging, oh, she, she's, you know, the first person to dig through her person, give them something. She just, she just generous. That turns me on. I love that about her. She's funny. She's just got a wicked sense of humor. She's intelligent, she can get things done. She'll follow through. She treats me with respect, she treats other people with respect. And those are qualities I tested for. And she passed the test. Now, yes, granted, women are testing us guys as well, and they should be. And you know what we often refer to as shit tests, we guys think is women treating us shitty. But that's not what a test is. A test is never mean or shitty behavior towards a man. It's checking. Do we have our together, Are we man enough to be her man? And so they do it in little subtle ways to see are we grounded? That that woman, the whole car door thing was, was a test. Was I gonna hold my ground? I remember I went when I went on A. Another match.com date with a woman. So I first date, I said, meet me at a Starbucks at this mall near where I lived back when I lived in the Seattle area. And I walked there to the malls just two blocks from my house. So it was a Sunday morning, so I, I'm gonna go a little bit early, take my, my Sunday New York Times with me and sit on a couch in this coffee shop area and, you know, read my newspaper, waiting for her to get there. Well, she got there as soon as I sat down. She was there early today too. And, you know, so we introduced ourselves and I put my newspaper, my reading glasses on the couch I was sitting on and I said, let's. Let's go order our coffee. We'll come back and sit down. She goes, you should take your newspaper with you. Somebody might take your newspaper. And I just looked at her. I said, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. We're good. Let's go. Let's go get a coffee. So we go get a coffee, come back, sit down, the newspaper's fine. My glasses were on top of it. And within the. The, you know, the first two or three minutes of talking, she tells me me that she tends to be controlling and she hates it when men let her take control. So in the first 45 seconds of meeting her, she tested me. Probably not consciously, but she started trying to take control. I just said, it's good, it's good. Come on, let's go get a coffee. And I passed her test, because I didn't. Oh, okay. Whatever you think. If you think that's better, yeah, I'll do it that way. And so women want to know again, are you man enough to be their man? And the way I tell guys is going back to the evolution thing. Throughout history, you know, the men have been the hunters, the warriors, the protector, the provider. We are at an emotional level, their emotional security system. Now, yes, most women can go earn their own paycheck. A lot of women earn a lot more than men these days. They can take care of themselves. But there's still that emotional piece that you like. Just the other day. We had a hurricane blow right over our house last Saturday night. And, you know, we're battening everything down and, you know, getting ready for this Hurricane Roslyn state, you know, category four, to come over us. And my wife was taking some garbage out with the. And the dog went with her. And she came right, stepped back in the house, and she said. And pushed the dog out of the way. She told me, there's. There's a toad right there inside the house. Take care of the toad. Take care of the toad. And I went. I thought, huh, that's a smart toad. He knows there's a lot of rain coming. He's already headed to higher ground. And I shoot him out. And he took off because it's dangerous. If a dog eats a toad. They can be poisonous. But even though my wife is strong, she's a gym rat. She out squats me. She's done my thigh. She's a. She's a lefty. She's done kickboxing. She's a strong woman. She said, can. Can you take care of the toad? They Scare me. So I went and took care. I said, I don't think it's a toad. I think it was actually a frog. But no, I don't care. But, you know, I took care of it, right? I, I, I, I gave her that sense of security. So what I tell men, if we are a woman's emotional security system, and we're like her castle and the marauding hordes are coming towards it, you know, they got the flaming torches, they're coming to rape and pillage and steal and destroy Joy, and, and we are the castle that's protecting her. She's got to go get a broomstick and start poking all around, poking the door jams, poking the windows, poking, you know, the joists in between the, the bricks. She's got to find, is there a vulnerable place? Is there a, a place where, you know, the. We might let her down? And they do that with us. They test, they poke, they prod to see, you know, where are we vulnerable? Not because they're mean. Well, some are mean. I tell guys, if a woman's mean, get the hell away away from her. You don't want a mean person in your life. But just the average woman is going to test and poke. My granddaughter does it. My mother does it. They're. They're testing, they're poking to see, again, where are you vulnerable? And guess what? If they find a place we're vulnerable, and the reason they know they found a vulnerable place is we collapse, we get defensive, we argue, we defend ourselves, we blow up, we pout, we withdraw. All of those are failing the test. But if she pokes that place and we stay firm and we go, hey, baby, I got it. You know, I don't want to control you, but I'm gonna open your door. Hey, baby, I got the frog. Don't worry about it. If we can stay firm with the pokes, they can now relax. Ah, until maybe a little bit later. I better go poke again. Maybe, maybe there's some new vulnerable spots. So they, they're good at poking our vulnerabilities. Now, we can either say. Can say I don't like it when she does that, or we can say she hit a vulnerability. That's what I need to work on. I need to go to my men's group. I need to go to my coach. I need to go to my therapist. I need to, you know, start looking at what is that vulnerability? Why am I so sensitive there? Why? Why does that trigger a fear in me? Why does that trigger a defensiveness in me? That's another way that a conscious relationship is a powerful personal growth machine. When my wife started poking my vulnerabilities in our first year of marriage, I wasn't reacting very well. And I thought, I can't keep doing this. I gotta find, I gotta find resources. So I found a coach, a men's program and I've been in it for five years now. Now when my wife does those same little pokes, she doesn't do them near as often because she doesn't have to. When she does do one, they're usually a little bit gentler. They're almost kind of half assed. Like this used to get you going. No, you, you calm now you just kind of walk up and press your body into me and kind of nibble on my neck and tell me how much you love me. And that's what, that's what I do to her now instead of me blowing up, why are you accusing me of this stuff? I just kind of go, just bring her some love and remind her how much I love her and how she's my gift from God and how I'm just blessed and, and then, you know, then I'll set the tone and lead and she's happy. Therapy. But I had to go to work on it. Yeah, I had to go to work on it.

Well, that's a really key point and there's so much in what you're sharing there. But to speak to that last part, when you share these stories, it is not you in the moment saying, okay, she's doing this. I'm going to respond like that because that looks more masculine. You know, it's not this conscious.

I like the way you do your eyebrows. That's really good.

You can of Jim Carrey. So as a kid I would practice.

Nice, nice. That practice paid off.

That skills my ticket to success. The eyebrows. But it is an expression of who you are, right? It goes back to the leading that great cake of life where I'm going to develop myself and become the man that I'm meant to be. And an extension of that is not, is not beyond my dating life. It's how I approach my work and friendships and relationships and family and dating and really in romantic relationships. And so I'm going to be that. And that's what I found is at first for me was a lot of conscious attempting to appear a certain way. And then over time, as I've grown in these capacities, you just behave that way. You just, you know, you don't have to think about with the, with the Frog slash toad. What's the right thing to do? You're just, oh, yeah. So you naturally embody that more and more. And there's one question I want to make sure that we get to. I know we're getting close to our time, which I think we touched on earlier, but it's such an interesting topic to me, which is that of porn and men's relationship with porn. Obviously, women can use porn too, but I think it's much more common for men to use it. I was on the cusp. So I'm about to turn 40 right now. So I'm at the cusp of millennial. I don't know what the other generation is, but. But I started getting access ahead of you, right in the middle there, right at the edge. But I started having access to porn at age 11, first in images, and then by the time I was 13, 14, it was videos. And it was. And it was nothing like the prevalence now. And so my. And a lot of social anxiety and low self esteem and niceness and fear of women. So my sexuality was really formed and fused with porn, and it was an emotional coping mechanism. I didn't realize that for many years. I thought it was, oh, I like to use porn because it's about sex or horniness. No, it was emotional coping. And so what I found is that I've been in a committed relationship for 11 years now. And as I've gone deeper and deeper into that, there is less and less space for me to indulge in the emotional coping of porn without a consequence. And for the first couple of years in our relationship, I was, hey, this is what I do. It's not a big deal. I'm not crazy with it. It's, it's, it's compartmentalized. I still have a sexual relationship with you, and. But over that was my story going in. And as time has gone on, I found that there was a limit to the depth of intimacy. I found that there was a. Something about. So one of my visions or values, I'd say, is that we're. We're meant to transcend the cultural messaging around aging, and aging is bad and aging makes you ugly. And it's this terrible travesty that happens to everybody, though. And I said, no, that's crazy. We want to, we want to become elders. We want to really own the beauty at every stage. That's what I really believe. My core. But I'm like, but if I'm exposing myself to all this material of, you know, is that, is that. How am I really going to be able to do it with, with my wife as she ages or just pretend. And so as time has gone on and so about three years ago was when I started to make a shift to, I'm not going to use it anymore at all. And it felt like aligned with my values. Then I realized, well, there's still an addictive emotional coping quality to it. So if you make that decision, you got to really strengthen that. So it's been this journey over the last three years to get more and more, I guess, free. And I'm not coming at this saying that that's exactly what everyone should do, but I do say sense that there is this pretty strong, often toxic effect of porn. I know there was for me, that most people, and a lot of men, a lot of my male clients didn't even want to go there. They're like, I don't want to talk about that. You know, I just want to get a date. I just want to do this. I just want to have a better relationship. And so I don't thrust it upon people. I'm not an evangelist or something, but I do. I am looking around saying, you know, this is. I think this is. This is having a bigger effect than a lot of people are willing to acknowledge. And I'm just curious, your. Your perspective, your sense of working with clients, how it fits into dating and relationships.

Yeah, well, I agree with you 100%. I. I tell guys I don't think porn is evil. I don't think, you know, it's sinful. I don't think it's terrible. I, I know feminine feminism is told as well. It's. It's harmful to women. And I'm sure it is at some degree. But, but I think, you know, if a woman is choosing to be in porn and getting paid for it without going all the way into that, you know, it's her job is what she does. But I think, I think it is harmful to men in many ways, more so than maybe what we would think sociologically. And I can't tell you how many guys I've worked with, like single guys. Yeah, I look at porn and probably look at it a lot. And, you know, I got, you know, almost got caught at work a couple times looking at it, you know, that kind of thing. And they go, but I know if I get in a relationship and start having regular steady sex, I'll let it go. And they never do. And then it just, they just carry it with them until either their partner finds out about it and blows up and you know, they have this meltdown or, or they keep looking at porn and it takes their sexual energy away from their partner and they just maybe lose sexual interest in their partner. I promise you no human being is ever going to live up to just everything you can find on the Internet get porn wise and you know, there's reason why, you know, porn's attractive. We are wired for sexual variety. It is part of our DNA and you know, there just is unlimited supply of it. It's quick, it's easy. And again I said most men don't like emotional tension. We, we want everything easy. Most men nowadays, you know, kind of about generation X down, kind of grew up thinking life should be easy, I should be able to have my parents lifestyle and you know, I don't, I shouldn't have to work all that hard at it. And, and so I see a lot of men, especially younger men hanging out what I call the nursery. You know, we just surf the Internet, watch YouTube videos, get on social media, smoke pot, you know, drink a lot, you know, go on Netflix, play video games, look at porn. And that's, that's kind of like that's their life. And you know, there's no, there's no big challenge. So if we're using those junk food substitutes for the real thing in life and that's what porn is, a junk food substitute for real sexual connection. I tell guys it's called a sex drive because it's supposed to drive you to a real human being. It's supposed to drive you to real life body parts. Not to your computer, not to your hand. That's not what the sex drive is meant for. But if, and I call porn and masturbation safe sex, you don't have to deal with a real live person getting rejected, looking foolish, struggling with is your penis big enough? Are you going to come too quickly? Are you going to keep your erection? You know, with porn? Yeah, no worries. You just, you know, know rub one out, you're done, you know, go on. But sex with real life people is a little bit more complicated and I believe much more fulfilling and much more interesting and much more growth producing. And so yes, if we have this fallback, this, this habitual pattern around porn, I don't think that serves as well if you're single. I think it actually gets in the way of you getting out of the house and having to do the hard work of interacting with real life people and maybe reading or meeting a real live person and then consciously dating and dealing with your own fear and Shame and anxiety around sexuality. You got to go deal with that stuff if you're in real life, but if it were born, you don't have to. And so I think, I think it just, it works against us in so many ways. And one of the things I've been saying for some time now, I think for most men, porn is not a true sex addiction. For them, I think, is because they're not actually having sex. Many are not having much sex, I think is for many men, it's a shame addiction. As you said, it's a comfort. You know, you go when you feel, just need a little comfort, you need an escape, you need some isolation. You just need something that feels good. But I, I think also it, it becomes the shame compartment that we can go to because most men do feel bad about their porn use, even if they're, you know, maybe the more habitual they are, the worse they feel. Deal? So what, what's happened, I think for almost everybody, culturally, men and women both, is we've all gotten sex crosswired with shame. I'll ask guys in my workshops at times I'll say, okay, think about your first sexual experience. First sexual memory. Was it your first kiss? First wet dream? First time you saw a naked woman in your dad's magazine? First, you know, I'll show you mine, you show me yours. Maybe even being sexually violent, violated. And that's true for women as well. What's your first sexual memory? First sexual experience. And then I'll ask them, was it in the open? Was it a positive experience? Could you go talk to your parents about it? Would they take you out and have pizza and celebrate this new, you know, this transition in your life? Or was it hidden? Was it secretive? Was it shame filled, guilt filled in the dark, you know, feeling like you're doing something wrong? Song and yeah, everybody raises their hand to that one. So if that means for the first several years of our development, every sexual experience we had touching our wiener, you know, women touching their clitoris, developing breasts for women being noticed having a wet dream. Any, any of this, if it's wrapped in secrecy and shame and, and evil and I mean, I grew up in fundamental Christian church. Church sex is dirty, evil and sinful. Save it for the one you love. It's a gift. I'm thinking that's weird, but that gets indoctrinated into us. And we live in the US in a puritanical culture. You know, the US was founded by, by religious weirdos that couldn't get along with anybody else back home. In Europe. And so they came to America to have the freedom to practice their weird form of religion. And almost all of it involved the repression of sexuality. So that still permeates American culture. So all of this stuff goes into it. So I'm a big fan of bringing every bit of ourselves into the light and especially our sexuality. Again, that's that sexual crucible that Snarch talks about. And I'm a big fan of having safe people coach men's group therapy. I began my personal recovery in a 12 step group for sex addiction. Quickly found out I wasn't having enough sex to be a sex addiction. But I had actively acted sexually inappropriate during my second marriage. But for the first time in my life, I started just revealing me everything about me. And you know, the response was, thanks for sharing, Robert. And then I got into therapy and got into a men's group that was focused on sexual shame. And I just kept revealing things about me. And it's funny how as I kept letting go of shame and getting more accurate messages about who I am, my sexuality became just a lot healthier, more, more vibrant. Not something I thought I had to hide or repress or go get met in these dark kind of ways. And so what I found, you know, working with men around porn, back when I had a private practice, if a guy brought up they had a porn issue, whether individually or in a men's group, I'd say, let's go look at some. And I'd sit the guy down at my computer and say, log you, just log you in, show me what you look at. And you know, the guy of course, just having all this shame come up, showing his therapist what he looks at and, but, but then we talk about it just like we're talking about cars or sports, to just release all that stored up shameful energy. And you know, after about four or five minutes, 10 minutes, maybe they're bored. Sex porn really is boring if you're not in a shame compartment. And so I found that if men can find a way to bring this out of the darkness and, and reveal it to a safe person, it tends to take a lot of the power up out of it. And I actually used to joke, I have the best job in the world, I get paid to look at porn. And you know, because, you know, guys would pay me to help help them overcome the porn stuff. So again, it's not evil. In fact, I want to take the evilness out of it, take the shame out of it, and let's just bring it out, out in the Light and bring all of our sexuality out into the light where nothing's hidden. We don't have to hide it from anybody. We were born sexual beings. I, I was, I was joking with some people in my workshop this weekend and I said, what was the first commandment God gave to Adam and Eve? And you know, I grew up in religion. A few other people had there too. And one, one guy, you know, goes like this. And I said, yeah, God told Adam and Eve go a lot. That's really what he told them. You know, we, it's been translated be fruitful and multiply. That's basically go have a lot of sex. That was God's first commandment to human beings. You know, somehow that seems to get lost in most religious teaching and preaching. That was God's first commandment. Go have a lot of sex. And so we got to bring it out of the darkness, out of the evil, out of the shame. And there's no right way to do it. But any, anywhere we can find safe people to reveal ourselves to. My wife and I, we made a commitment to each other. Let's help each other work through and release all sexual fear and all sexual shame. Shame. So we talk about everything, we share everything. We're transparent and open with each other. We'll explore things together just to see, you know, just to let things go. And, and again, that's where a conscious relationship can be such a powerful personal growth machine. So yeah, we gotta bring it up. So I would even tell guys, you know, again, if you're not sharing it with your, Sharing your porn with your coach or your therapist or your men's group, if you're in a relationship, show it to your partner. Say, if you want to know what I look at, here's what I look at. Let's look at it. Maybe the two of you will have a shared sexual enjoyment around porn, that's fine. But when it's hidden and secretive and shame based, that's where it tends to be destructive. So bring it out in the open. So the most healthy thing I know to do.

I love, I love all that you're sharing there. There's so much depth in just that. One last question. But this whole interview, you and I think it's very clear that you have been deeply studying and helping people. And I think as you're committed to helping people and writing books, that it makes you study even more and learn even more. So just a wealth of wisdom. I feel like even with an hour and a half, we're just scratching the surface and there's so much more. So for people who want to know more, I definitely would suggest looking up Dr. Glover on on Amazon to get dating essentials for Men. Dating Essentials for Men. Frequently asked questions. No more Mr. Nice Guy. But if people want to know more about what you're up to, you mentioned workshops or classes or other things you might do online. Where should people go?

Just Dr. Glover.coM-R-G-L-O-V-E-R.com if they google Robert Glover, if they Google no more Mr. Nice Guy, I'll come up in all the top spots. But drglover.com problems. Easiest way to do it.

Yeah.

Great.

So definitely encourage, if you're intrigued and feel like there's guidance or wisdom here that'll be useful for you, go to his website and just keep learning because, and also definitely, if you have not read no More Mr. Nice Guy, I would highly recommend that book. There is just a lot of wealth of examples. And I know when I read it, it was, you know, the classic. I'm sure you've heard this a thousand times, like me on every page, right? Oh, my gosh. I do the victim puke thing. Oh, no.

Right.

So really good stuff. Thank you so much, Robert, for sharing, for spending this time with us. And I'm excited to. I'm excited to keep learning from you in all these ways. And I've learned a ton in this interview. Thank you.

Thanks for the invitation. I always enjoy the chance to chat with you. Let's do it again.

That brings us to the end of the interview. But before we complete this episode, let's find something that you can do to put this into action.

Now. Time for action.

Action, action.

So your action step for today is going to be to take one thing that you heard from that interview and go intentionally apply it. And it's obviously going to be different for different people. If you're a man, if you're a.

Woman, if you're in a relationship, if.

You'Re single, if you're dating. So wherever you are in your life, I know there's going to be at least one thing that you can apply. Maybe it's getting clarity on how do I want to show up or who do I want to be or what are my values. Maybe it's a certain risk that you want to take. Maybe it's a willingness to hold your ground in a situation that maybe in the past you would have just instantly crumpled. Remember Robert's story about on his different relationship or his dates and being able to be clear. I'm like, I'm not trying to control you. This is just what I'm going to do. This is who I am and how holding his ground there, actually, instead of it leading to this, you know, intense conflict or I don't like you or you're bad, he was willing for it to go that way, but instead something, well, very different happened. If you remember from the interview. So what is that one action that you're going to take? I'm going to invite you to decide something right now and commit to something. It could be something really small, but the key is not taking the biggest action all the time. It is going from learning mode and listening mode to creating to doing so. What is that actually going to be for you? Fantastic. And until we speak again, we have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to social confidencecenter.com.

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