How To Be Less Submissive with Dr. Hope Hills

Welcome to Shrink for the shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence, first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome today's episode of the show. Today you are in for a treat. You're going to be learning some really powerful key insights from just one of the most brilliant minds who's been studying the subject for 30 years, maybe more. You'll find out in the interview when I speak with her. Her name is Dr. Hope Hills. And in this interview, we get into some really fascinating stuff around how you relate to others. And it's gonna tap into some stuff you might have never really thought about. But just a little teaser about what we're gonna get into. It's gonna. We're kind of breaking up into two parts in this episode and the next one. And in this one, we talk a lot about this idea of being submissive versus dominant, submissive versus dominant. And it might be something you've never even thought about, those words. Maybe you hear the word dominant, you're like, ugh, sounds like a jerk. And you hear submissive, and you're like, I don't like the sound of that. I'm not that, you know, but we might not use those words in our day to day language. And yet any human you interact with, you are subtly adopting postures of submissiveness or dominance. You kind of find your way in the pack, in the hierarchy, so to speak. And it's subtle. You know, you're not like pounding on your chest or knocking someone over, something like a wolf or a chimpanzee. But it's subtle. It's the amount of eye contact you use. It's the quality of your voice tone. It's what you say or what you hold back. It's how you relate to them. Are you pleasing or ingratiating or looking to agree with them? Do you challenge them? Are you confronting them? Are you leading them with kind of a friendly, warm, dominant energy? These are all things that you're going to uncover in this interview. It's really fascinating stuff. And what I want you to do is just listen with an open mind. Be as nonjudgmental as possible with yourself. If you notice you do one of these things that maybe isn't very effective or very useful in social or business interactions, beating yourself up for it does not solve the problem. It drives it down deeper. It makes it worse. So we want to do anything you notice. If you see yourself doing something that we talk about, say, oh, I do that. Cool. Now I'm going to learn something. Now I'm going to learn a way to be different. So very exciting stuff. Without further ado, let's dive into my interview with Dr. Hope Hills.

Expert interview.

My guest expert today is, is Dr. Hope Hills and I met Dr. Hills. We were in a Mastermind together and I immediately, I mean she was a, she's a licensed psychologist and has just a long history of helping people and she's also mastered this one particular, I want to call it a tool. But she's probably going to see it as much more and we're going to get her insights on it. This way of seeing how humans interact with that I instantly saw the application for confidence social interactions. She's been using it to help C suite executives and high potential leaders and their teams become more measurably successful. Since 1991. So over 20 years now. Longer, much longer. Almost 30 years. And she's also founded the Circle consulting group in 1998 where she's coached at least 24 CEOs and owners in Fortune 50 to 100 companies, nonprofits, businesses all around this inner circle and how to use this to manage their teams, to manage their lives. And she's got a long history of doctoral training and counseling and psychology. Just extremely insightful and skilled. And I am so glad to have you on our show today, Dr. Hills.

Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here. I enjoy you and I enjoy talking with you. So this will be fun to share this with the folks that listen to you. I know it'll be interesting for them.

Good. So let's, let's dive into it. Dr. Hills and I were talking about this before the call. There's a visual representation of this circle that if you go to shrink for the shy guy shrink for the shy guy. It's the host for this or the site for this podcast. And just look at this episode below it there will be a downloadable image and a link to her site where you can get this interpersonal circle. However some of you might be driving, you might not do that right away. So we're going to talk about this and describe it in a way that you can just dive right in and not have to have it in front of you. But for those of you who want to have it in front of you, go ahead and do that. But let's start with, you know, people might be wondering, what is this circle? What does this mean? What is this? So let's start kind of top level. How do you use this tool to help people?

Well, I first learned about the circle in 1980, right when I started my doctoral training at VCU. And it just astounded me so much. It really helped me understand the dynamics of human relationships, which had kind of confused me up till then. So it was. It was really valuable. And so I did my dissertation on it and continued to use it with people and organizations. It was originally developed, and it's had well over 50 years of solid research to see that the dynamics and everything that I will share with you today are really solid. You can really trust them. And so it's been great to use it with executives and others to help them to switch the way they handle things and get out of being kind of rigid and become more flexible. In fact, I call my new circle the Interpersonal Flexibility Circle.

Interesting. Great. So what is the circle? What is it made of?

There are two dynamics. If you think of a circle in your mind, or you could draw it, you have a vertical line. These two dynamics cut the circle into four quadrants. So the vertical line, the top is dominant and the bottom is submissive. And then the horizontal line, the left hand is hostile or closed or cold. So you can think of a person that's acting that way. And on the right hand end is friendly, warm, and open.

Okay, this is great. So I'm just going to break this down to make sure everyone's got this, because I think when we have these. These core dimensions in your mind, then all the conversation we have is going to make more sense. So just imagine a circle. And you draw a line, kind of cutting the circle in half from top to bottom. And then another horizontal line cutting it in half from the upper and lower half. And at the very top of the circle, imagine dominant. At the very bottom of the circle, imagine submissive. And then on the left of the circle is hostile, cold, or closed. And on the right is friendly, warm, and open. So I'd imagine that these are kind of like. That's sort of like a spectrum, right? Like someone could be really dominant or a little bit dominant, a little bit submissive or really submissive.

Absolutely. In fact, if you're really up on top or really on the bottom or way to the side, those places to come from are kind of rigid and they're usually fairly defensive. So the circle also has another aspect and that is intensity. So if you had four different circles coming from the inside to the outside, the outside two levels, our intents are defensive. If you're thinking of self confidence, the person who's acting out of those two circles would probably be feeling defensive and not too confident, even if that person's acting dominant. Whereas the person in the center of the circle can relax and be a lot more at ease with the other person. And I find that people who are operating out of that center part of the circle have much more satisfying and happy, fun relationships.

Oh, that's really interesting because, you know, so what I hear you saying is that if we get too far on any of those spectrums, we tend to be more rigid or defensive in that way. So that makes sense. If, you know, I'm like, too hostile. I get that. You know, I'm like yelling at people or angry or putting off a negative vibe. What's the danger? How is it defensive or rigid to be too far on the friendly or warm or open side? Doesn't it seem like you'd want to be as friendly and warm and open as possible? We're going to pause for just one moment and then continue on with my interview with confidence expert Dr. Hope Hills.

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Yes, but I bet you know people who are so sickly sweet and nicey nice and they never disagree with you and they kind. Oh, just. I'd rather. I'd rather have somebody who was a bit hostile than to have somebody that's that nice. It really locks the other person up in a, you know, a ball of cotton candy.

Okay, right, right. So yeah, that's. Being too friendly is not authentic as well, in a way.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so that's what we're aiming for is authenticity. But all of us have history with people in our lives, especially early in our lives where we come to expect certain behavior from like people in authority. So when we expect that behavior of them, we act in a way that pulls that behavior. And so that's another really important part of the circle. And this is the key, is that automatically all of us react to any situation. And this is true of dogs as well. We can see it. You know, when a dog comes in who's really very powerful and dominant, what happens to the other dog? Their tail goes between their legs and they're submissive. My little dog is always submissive. So then the other dog is dominant. Well, that's the same thing with humans, that dominance always pulls submission. And just as powerfully, submission always pulls dominance. So when we know that, we can really start recognizing that dominance is. I mean, yeah, dominance isn't being powerful. Being powerful isn't being dominant. Being self confident isn't being dominant. Being powerful or self confident is getting the outcome you want. And oftentimes that means maybe being submissive to help the other person be a little bit dominant. Or the best way to get the outcomes you want is to be in the center of the circle and be able to move around really, really easily.

That's a really valuable insight, what you just shared there, I hope, which was that self confidence or being powerful is not to just be this dominant figure. It's being effective in getting the outcomes that you want.

Right.

And that's, that's a really important thing because I think sometimes, you know, a lot of people, and I know I was this way too, you know, history of low self esteem, a lot of social anxiety, tend to be a lot more submissive. And then you look at the people that seem confident and powerful and they seem more dominant. So you're like, oh, that's the way to be, is more dominant. And yet that's really not the outcome. The outcome is this confidence, this ability to flow. And you also said something really important and I want to come back to is that submissiveness always pulls dominance.

Yes.

So let's go right to one of the core of the challenges that a lot of people listening struggle with, I struggled with, which is we move around life kind of in a submissive way. We're submissive with our boss, we're submissive with coworkers. We're submissive with people we're attracted to. We're kind of pleasing and submissive. I guess we'd be kind of on the friendly side and the submissive, whatever quadrant that is. But it's the.

Unless we're feeling really insecure and then we're actually on the hostile Side, because when we're feeling insecure, we're kind of pushing the other one away. We're hiding. We're, you know, the. On the hostile side, it's hostile cold or closed, so.

And submissive. Yeah.

And the other most important thing to know is that hostility pulls hostility and friendliness pulls friendliness. So if you've drawn that circle in your mind or on a piece of paper, if you draw a line from the top left to the bottom left, that's what always happens automatically. And if the first person is dominant hostile, that's the top quadrant, then the other person is going to automatically feel at least submissive hostile. And if you're aware of that, you can take a breath and decide not to be there. And if somebody is dominant friendly, that's on the top quadrant on the right side, that's going to pull the other person to be submissive friendly or cooperative or maybe docile. And so if you want that side to be in play, then you can move over to that side of the circle.

Yeah, well, hey, let's just go right there. Because dominant friendly then. Not the extreme, because I see this as rigid, but kind of a healthy level of dominant friendly. What would that.

Yeah, just inviting closeness.

Yeah. What would that look like? How might someone show up that way at work or with their team or with their co workers or with, you know, friends, Anything.

Yeah. So if you're being the two there, this is also cut up into octants as well. But if you're being kind of leading but not bossy, if you're being leading or nurturing and caring, that dominant friendly kind of sense would be, hey, I have an idea. Let's do this. That's a dominant friendly kind of leading, but not too leading. Or oh, I really like what you're wearing today, Aziz. It's just great. Great. I bet that you had fun picking that out. You know, so being the person that compliments is a dominant friendly kind of thing. Unless you get too dominant friendly and then submissive friendly, which would pull the other person to being dominant friendly would be, oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate you telling me that. Or can I help or asking for help? Asking for help is one of the most powerful things we can do in human relationships, and oftentimes we get scared to do that because when somebody asks for help, they're being cooperative or submissive friendly. That pulls the other person to be dominant and friendly, which feels really good to them and it helps a relationship.

Yeah. Say more about that, because I'm wondering, you Know, it makes sense where we would want to be more dominant, friendly, kind of more of that leading place that you were talking about. When would we want to be more submissive, friendly and bring out the dominance in someone else? When would that be helpful? Do you think we're going to pause one more time and then come back to hear more of the interview with Dr. Hope Hills?

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Well, say, are most of your listeners men?

Yeah, I'd say.

Okay, so you're on a date with a woman and for some reason she's kind of not really forthcoming or kind of anxious and you'd really like her to kind of drop that and feel more comfortable. Well, the place to go is submissive, friendly, and one of the magic. Here's this magic, magic, no matter where you are asking questions, being really interested in that person and asking questions can be really magical because it begins to pull them up to being dominant and friendly. So how long have you been working at your job or how do you like it? I mean, almost any question that's really, really authentically curious about the person is going to just really be magical. It really is. Almost anytime you get in trouble in a relationship, if you, if you switch to asking questions and really being interested in the other person, amazing things will happen.

Sure, yeah. No, I can see that. And I can see where we get, you know, we get stuck in some sort of defensive dominance, like, no, I gotta get my point across or point out where you're wrong.

Yeah, yeah, that just doesn't, it doesn't really work in the long run. But if you point out where you're wrong, like from the center of the circle, and you can do that by asking questions. So if I was my husband and I. So if I was really wanting to let him know he was wrong, I could say, well, tell me how you came to that decision to do that. I'm really curious because I'm confused by what you did hear, how that is different than out on the outside of the circle. On dominant Hosta would be, you stupid idiot. Why did you do that? So that would cause him to become distrustful and want to fight back.

Sure. That kind of reminded me of something that I'd be curious to get your thoughts on. That brings us to the end of the interview for today. There is more and we get in more. In the next week of this show, the next episode, we're going to go more into really interesting stuff about how we influence each other and how you can pull. You heard her talking about one pulls, the other, submission pulls dominance, dominance pulls submission, friendliness pulls friendliness, and hostility pulls hostility. So I go way deeper in that in the interview with her and find out what does that actually mean to pull it. And we do this really interesting role play where she actually demonstrates how she pulls, like, friendliness, basically how she shows up as a subordinate in a position dealing with an upset boss, and how she kind of uses this interpersonal circle to end up being sort of the dominant one in the situation. It's really fascinating. You're gonna want to stay tuned for that. Next week's episode is gonna be all about how to influence people using this knowledge. For now, though, we can't go anywhere without putting this into action. Time for action. Action, action. Your action step for today is to pay attention this week just to those that circle in those two dimensions. Notice in any given situation at work, socially, wherever you go, am I being more in the dominant side right now or more submissive? Just start to notice that. Just pay attention to that. Again, don't judge whatever you discover. And then also, am I in the more warm and friendly side or am I in the more hostile side? Hostile or cold or distant? And also notice, like, how extreme. Am I really friendly? Like, overly friendly, or am I really distant, like, won't even interact with the people? Am I really dominant or am I really submissive? Who am I more submissive with? Who am I more dominant with? Who am I more friendly with? Who am I more withdrawn or cold with? Just make this week all about. Your action is to take this knowledge and raise your awareness of yourself with it. Because that's the whole point. Not just to have some intellectual labels that you can put on stuff that sound neat, but how to use this information to transform your awareness and transform your life. So that's your action step for today, and I can't wait to see you in next week's episode. Until then, may you have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to socialconfidencecenter.com.