How To Be Yourself With Dr. Ellen Hendriksen

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome to today's episode of the show. Today you are in for a treat. We're gonna be talking about a topic that I know you will love, which is how to be yourself. I mean, that's really the name of the game here, right? As we overcome any sort of shyness, social anxiety, self doubt, we maybe have been living in a way where we feel like we're not enough or we fear we're not enough, we're not gonna be liked. Is someone gonna judge me? Am I good enough to do that thing? Am I good enough for a relationship? Will I ever find anybody? Is this person gonna like me if I reveal that?

Am I?

And we can live with fear and anxiety about our relationships, about our worthiness, about our lovability, about our ability to really be connected with others in the long term. And there's a lot of challenge that comes with that, a lot of stress and maybe even isolation that comes with that. So I know that's one of the things that might have drawn you to this show. And I am so excited because I'm going to be interviewing someone who really has been on a parallel track to me for many years. She's a clinical psychologist. She had her own form of social anxiety. She's overcome that and has now helped helping millions of people overcome their own anxiety as well in this area. So, yeah, what a gift, what a treat. This is an action packed, detailed, specific interview. That's what I love about working with and talking to people who. She's a clinical psychologist. She's been working in the trenches for years. And so her advice is very grounded, very practical, as well as very heartfelt because she knows the struggle of it too. So what a joy. And let's dive into that interview now. My guest Expert today is Dr. Ellen Hendrickson. She's a clinical psychologist who's helped millions calm their anxiety and be their authentic selves. She serves on the faculty of Boston University center for Anxiety and Related Disorders and is the author of how to be Quiet, your Inner Critic, and Rise above Social Anxiety. Her scientifically based, zero judgment approach has been featured in New York Magazine, the Guardian, Harvard Business Review, Scientific American, and a number of other publications. And she was one of the founding hosts of a podcast that was highly viewed and downloaded over 15 million times called the Savvy Psychologist. Welcome, Dr. Hendrickson, to the show. I'm so excited to be having this conversation with you because I absolutely love the work that you do and especially the title of your book, how to be Yourself. We're going to dive into that and so much more. Thanks for joining us.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be on your show.

So let's start off with that, right to the beginning, a book called how to be yourself, Quiet, your inner critic and rise above social Anxiety. And what an interesting thing that we would actually have to read a book on how to be ourselves.

Right, right.

And so what led to you writing this book and calling it how to be Yourself? Help us understand that.

Sure. So I'll start with the first part of that question. What led to writing this book? So some of it is professional. I'm a clinical psychologist. I work at Boston University's center for Anxiety and Related Disorders, which is the kind of regional specialty center for anxiety. And so naturally, this is. Treating social anxiety is one of my favorite things in the world. The people who come in looking for assistance and are ready to be challenged with social anxiety are inevitably just some of the greatest, most lovely people that I've ever worked with. So I just, I love the work that I do, but it's also personal. I. When I was in grad school and learning about social anxiety and learning the symptoms and the signs and the treatment, I saw myself. I said, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I've been dealing with for my whole life. I really saw myself in what I was reading and learning. And now it's very different. You know, I wish I had had this book and know. Know the things that I know. Like back when I was 20, like, I wish I knew that how I felt, you know, wasn't how I looked. I didn't wear my heart on my sleeve when it came to my anxiety. I wish I knew that, you know, the things I was doing to try to make myself feel better, like avoid eye contact or be overly nice so people would like me, was. Was just keeping me anxious. You know, I wish I had known that my perfectionism, you Know, thinking I had, I had to be witty and smart and, you know, at least not sound stupid, like all the time was making me not say anything. And so, you know, now I feel like I can chit chat with pretty much anyone and I can speak in public in front of a crowd or, you know, host a party or, you know, what have you, but it took a long time to get there. And so I like to say that I did it the hard way, but that's why I wrote the book, so other people don't have to.

I love that. And I think that makes for such a more powerful way that you can help people is because you get it from the other side. And I know that's why a lot of people are drawn to this show and drawn to me. And it sounds like there's a lot of similarity between our journeys and that I have a passion for helping people with this because I was my own first and most challenging client, had a lot to work through. It's always easier to help someone else through than ourselves. And I love that you became so passionate about it that you wanted to turn that into part of what you focus on and support people with. So I guess if you were to go back to when you were younger and you said I was doing all these things and I didn't know it, you mentioned perfectionism, needing to always have the right thing to say. You mentioned this avoiding eye contact. Would you say that perfectionism is a symptom of social anxiety? Because I don't know if people necessarily see them as the same or as linked. But what's your perception?

Yeah, no, 100%. I think that I'm actually glad you asked that question because as I've talked to more and more people about the book and done more and more interviews, that is the fun fact, as it were, that makes most people's eyes light up. It makes that light bulb go off above their head. They say, oh, my gosh, I never thought about it like that before. But yes, that is exactly what it is. Because if we walk into a conversation thinking we have to be cool and come across as witty and drop a perfectly timed comment in and speak in articulate paragraphs, we're not going to say anything. Likewise, I'm thinking back to raising my hand in class. I thought that I had to get every answer right and sound good while doing it, and so I never raised my hand. So perfectionism absolutely is a huge driver of social anxiety. The bar, we think, is set really, really high. And in fact, it's much More forgiving than we think. We feel like we're walking along a social tightrope when really we're kind of strolling down the sidewalk.

Yes. And so with that, there's a lot more leeway to be ourselves and to be imperfect is what I hear you saying. And yet the fear is that something bad will happen if I demonstrate that imperfection, if I'm vulnerable. And I imagine a big part of the work that you do with people is to help them test that fear, challenge that fear, and really take the risk to be more themselves.

Is that right? Absolutely. Because we can, you know, I can sit across from a client and talk about how we don't have to be perfect, but until our brain really goes through that via experience, we don't recalibrate our expectations. But there are some things that can serve as a nice long Runway in terms of rethinking our expectations before we go out in the world and try it or. One of my favorite studies you might know about this one is a 1966 study by Dr. Elliot Aronson. And in it he had people listen. College students listen to four different audio recordings, all ostensibly of a classmate trying out for their college quiz bowl team. So Again, this is 1966. Quiz bowls were a thing. Anyway, so the first and second recordings are of just a spectacular tryout. This guy gets almost every question right and then he talks a little bit about his background and it's clear that he's an overachiever. He has all these fantastic high school activities, you know, is very impressive. And so those are the, those are the first two and the second two, the guy's, you know, much, much, much less impressive. Like his, he answers maybe a third of the questions correctly. He doesn't have any activities to speak of from high school. So those are the other two. And the difference is that one, in one of the high achieving recordings and in one of the kind of mediocre low average recordings, at the end of each of those you hear a little bit extra tape, you hear the scraping of a chair, and then you hear the clattering of a cup and you hear him go, oh no, I've spilled coffee all over my new suit. So got four completely different recordings. And then of those four people were asked, who do you like the most? Who would you want to be friends with, essentially? And the guy that comes out ahead, intuitively, we would think would be this impressive guy. If we have social anxiety or we're shy, we often think that people expect us to be really competent and be Confident and like, really be on top of our game. So we think that's what people want. But in fact, the guy who is competent yet spills coffee on himself comes out on top. And I just thought that was fascinating. And I think what is happening there is because people who really do come across as perfect or to put together are intimidating. They're unapproachable, they're not relatable. And so when you have somebody who's generally competent but can make a fool of himself or makes a mistake or kind of gets himself into a scrape, that is much more relatable. It takes him from being superhuman to being just human. And then when we come across as human with all our foibles and bloops and blips and coffee stains on our shirt, then people can connect with us even more. So not only do to circle back to sitting across from clients in my office, not only do we talk about how you don't have to be perfect, but it's actually better. You come across as more likable and more relatable if you are unapologetically not perfect.

Yeah, what a relief.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think that's such a. I love that story of the experiment because it really highlights something that we may know or experience, but then when it comes to us doing it ourselves and taking that risk, we have this. Okay, maybe that would work for other people, or maybe I felt that way towards someone else when they've been vulnerable. But, you know, the study really highlights that. No, this is a universal thing. And to me, it makes me think of that. You know, we have a desire and a need to be significant and special, and that would be sort of like, I've achieved this and I've done that. But we also have a desire for love and connection, and we think our story is. Well, if I achieve this and show that I'm really good in this way and prove that, then I'll get love and connection and what this is highlighting as well. No, actually the connection comes from the shared humanity, which involves the mistakes, which involves spilling coffee on yourself. And I love. Just as a side, I love studies because they're doing audio, right? So they have to set it up this way. But I just, you know, I love how. How many times if I've spilled something on myself, like, I would then exclaim, oh, no, I have spilled coffee upon my pants.

I know, it sounds like a language learning app, you know, like. Like all those sentences that come across as, like, you know, very fake stuff. I like, oh, no, I Have spilled coffee all over my new suit. I know, I know. So.

Oh, I love it. I love it. So how do you help people bridge that gap? Maybe they're on board with you. They're like, okay, yes, be more myself. Like, what a beautiful message. I don't have to be perfect. Okay, well, first of all, do most people buy into that? Do you get pushback and say, no, I still am not going to do it? Or are most people right there with you? And then the next step is to kind of help shepherd them across that risk.

Usually when people come in, they're ready. I like to say that people come to therapy because they like to. Because they want to change. And absolutely, I get that this is hard, and of course I'm going to get some pushback, but I always say, you know, I'm never going to make you do anything that. That is unsafe or undignified. You know, sometimes you like. At least I have discovered out in on the interweb, sometimes really hardcore social anxiety therapists will make their clients go do kind of, in my opinion, humiliating things. And I think that's. That doesn't have any redeeming value. But so I instead say, okay, well, what. What do you want to be doing? If you want. We're confident. If you were living the life you want to live, what would you be doing? And then we go do those things, and we do it a little at a time. I always say, we're going to inch our way into the pool. You don't have to do a cannonball into the deep end. So we will figure out, okay, if you want to be giving presentations at work because you are up for a promotion, but you know that the next level involves a lot of presenting. Let's. Let's focus on that. Or if you're not dating because you feel like you're not ready or it's intimidating, let's work on that. How would your life be better? And let's focus and customize our work together to make that happen. So I think humiliation for humiliation's sake is not the way to go. Instead, I always keep it dignified, and I never make people do anything that I personally wouldn't do. But, you know, there's a lot we can do within that. And I think one of the biggest eye openers that I offer is I often push people to talk more about themselves because folks with social anxiety or folks who are shy tend to hold their lives pretty close to the best. And a lot of the advice that we're. That folks with Social anxiety is given, the advice is often ask questions. And I think that that's absolutely valuable advice. That is fantastic that questions should be asked. But just like any tool, it can get overused. And so I think like, if you're on a date and you're just kind of hammering your date with question after question, they can end up feeling interrogated or feel like they're being interviewed. And so I will try to push people who come in with social anxiety or folks who identify as shy to talk more about themselves and their own lives and what they think and do and feel. And the technical term for that is called disclosures. But really it's just kind of sharing your inner and outer life with others because like I said, we all can play it kind of close to the vest and then people don't have anything to work with. And so that's what turns into the. If we see our co worker in the office kitchen and they say, hey, how's it going? We say good. And then it just peters off from there. It gets awkward. And so I will work with people to say I'm good, I had a great weekend, I went hiking at this local park, blah, blah, blah, blah. Try this restaurant to like, just, just say a little bit about what you think and do and feel. And then your conversation partner has way more to work with and. And has a number of jumping off points from which to continue that conversation. So, yeah, absolutely. Tool I try to. To offer.

So helpful. I love that I've encouraged people to translate the Fred, the question how's it going? Or how are you doing? Into tell me something about your life right now.

Perfect.

And then they get to have permission because I think that's a big part of it at the not sharing and the play it close is that, well, there's a story of I gotta be perfect. And then also which we're getting into in just a minute, is this pretty consistent inner judgment or criticism that might say not only does it, is it not perfect, but it's not even really that good. Like your weekend hike story, don't share that. And so there's a lot of dismissing and discounting of their general experience and some distorted idea that everyone else has a much more dramatic, exciting life. And so as a result there's this withholding of that. And then yeah, then there's more of that disconnection and isolation. So I really want to dive into that critic. But one question I wanted to ask first is a lot of people that are experiencing the anxiety, the fear of others, the Fear of judgment have experiences in their life that have taught them that people might judge them. Maybe it's specific instances in school when they were young where they were teased or mocked or ostracized or bullied. There can be specific instances at home when they were young where they were directly told critical things about themselves, about their appearance or their worth or their personality or a whole host of other things, or indirect messages from parents of withdrawal or you're not worth my attention kind of messages that might be interpreted as a child. So those things come together, and this person has painful experiences that say, wow, people can hurt me. Opening up can really hurt. And so what we've been talking about is the behavioral side of it, like, hey, share more and put yourself out there, and it's okay to be you. What do you do with people when they start to do that? And then they come into contact with that pain that they've been avoiding with all these avoidance behaviors. How do you help them through that?

Yeah, so first I validate as much as. Because that is 100% true, I don't have research numbers on it, but just in my clinical experience, I'd say about anywhere from one third to a half of folks who come in have been bullied in some way. So, yeah, just like you said, it could be at school, it could be verbal or emotional abuse at home. But yes, that is a huge driver of social anxiety. And interesting, there. There is some research on how physical bullying, like if you were the kid who got slammed into the locker or, you know, pushed and shoved, that actually leads less to social anxiety than the kids who are verbally harassed. So if you got called a loser or were ostracized or were the subject of gossip, like, nobody ever laid a finger on you, but you were viciously attacked socially. That is the. What pulls the trigger on social anxiety, which makes perfect sense. Like you said, we've learned then that people do judge us, that people are watching, that one misstep can lead to a big overreaction and drawing a lot of attention. So. So I just want to validate that these people are not crazy, that this can happen. And then we look at, how are things different now? Are we still in middle school? Are those particular people. Who's that? What's the inner voice that's criticizing us? Because often it's somebody from our past that we've internalized. It is that bully, or it is the. The parent who criticized us or told us in either overt or covert ways that we weren't measuring up. We Try to isolate that inner voice and say, now whose voice is this really? And to try to drown it out or replace it with a voice that's more accurate based on where we are in our life now that we're not back in middle school, we're in our 20s or 30s or beyond, and that if we look up and look around, we realize that we're not in the danger now that we really, truly were back when we learned these lessons. They might have worked for us before, but they don't work anymore. And how can we change based on our new circumstances?

Yeah, I love that. That there's a possibility that the past is not what we're necessarily going to experience in the future. And hence, that's part of the. What I think could be so powerful in working with you or with anyone that can help us to be willing to take that risk. Because if we never take those risks, then we do get locked into something that happened 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago.

Yeah.

So let's talk about some of the ways that you do that specifically, because I think this is such an important part of the work to build our confidence is that our biggest enemy is not out there. It's not the judgment of others. Because as you said, a lot of the time that happened a long time ago, even if now someone did judge us, it's usually. It's temporary. It's not nearly as harsh as the biggest judger, the biggest doubter, the biggest criticizer is internalized. It's this part inside of ourselves, this voice in our heads, whatever you want to call it, thought patterns. But there's a pretty consistent voice for, in my experience, virtually everyone now, people with social anxiety or other forms of maybe depression or something, it might be more intensified. But even someone who's doing really well in their life, they still pick at themselves here and there. It's just not as debilitating. So how do we work with that inner critic and really start to quiet it so we can take these risks and ultimately enjoy socializing in our lives more?

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give folks kind of two buckets of tools, one on the kind of inside our head side and one on the action side. So in terms of inside our head, I like to try to walk people through a number of questions that they can ask themselves. So first, anxiety tends to be really vague. Like, we think something bad will happen. That could be anything. Our anxiety is not very specific. It just is this kind of blanket layer of doom that's coming down the pike. And so I'll try to encourage people to specify what their feared outcome is. So if they're walking into, let's say, a work presentation and they're very anxious, I'll say, well, what's your feared reveal? What's your feared outcome? What are you afraid is going to happen? And if they say, well, just something's going to go bad, everybody will hate it. We'll say, okay, let's try to make that more specific. Everybody will hate it. Or are you just worried about your boss? Or are you worried about the, you know, your judgy colleague who always finds something to pick on with everybody's presentation? Like, let's, let's make this very specific. Because then once it's specific, then we can argue with it. We can try to restructure that. Or if our anxiety presents things in the form of a question, often takes the form of a what if. What if people laugh at me? What if nobody likes this? What. What if I didn't do a good enough job? Again, we can specify simply by turning that question into a statement, what if everybody laughs at me? Everybody's gonna laugh at me. Now, we can't argue with a question, but we can argue with a statement. And so if we can specify our fear and really kind of nail it down and get it under that microscope to mix my metaphors, then we can, we can really take a look at it and say, is that accurate? Or, you know, what's. Or we can move on to the next questions and say, well, how bad would that really be? You know, if, for example, I'll just stick with the presentation example. If the thought is people are going to see my hands shaking, how bad would that really be? Would anyone die? Would this affect the message of your presentation? Would this make people shun you forever in the office kitchen? You know, probably not. How bad would this be? Not that bad. Or if the answer to the question is that would be really bad. Like, let's say. Let's say the answer is this would not happen. But, you know, let's say the answer is, well, they'll see my. They'll see my handshaking and I'm going to get fired. Like, my, my boss is just going to think something's wrong with me and I'm not reliable and I'm an anxious freak and I'm just going to get fired. We'll say, okay, what are the odds of that happening? How many people have been fired for their handshaking during a presentation? Out of 100 people whose handshake, how many have lost their job because of it. And so if we start questioning, we say either how bad would that be, maybe not that bad, or if the answer is really bad, really, what are the odds? Like how often does that actually happen? Then we can often recalibrate our expectations and realize that a lot of what's happening is the anxiety talking, as opposed to real world experience. The third question we can ask ourselves is the most important, and that is, how would I cope? What would I do if my fear came to pass? How would I soothe myself? Who would I talk to? What action would I take? What can I do? Because that gives us a plan. And when we have a plan, we have more certainty. And anxiety is driven by uncertainty. It's driven by not knowing what's going to happen. And so if we know what we're going to do, even if the worst case scenario came down the pike, we often feel a lot better because we know that we'll get through it and we know that we can reach out and we know that we can soothe ourselves. So specify, how bad would that really be? What are the odds? How would I cope? So that's all stuff you can do inside your head.

I love that. That's a really useful step by step process to guide ourselves through. And would you recommend people if they were to experiment with this on their own, would you recommend just they go through it in their head or they do it in a journal? What's the best way in case someone wants to just try this out, like today?

Yeah, that's a. Sure, that's a great question. I think when we're first starting to use it, it does behoove us to write it down and to journal it or to just kind of spend some more time mucking around in there. And then I think as we master it, it becomes internalized and eventually we can just kind of tick through the questions in our head. So I would say, you know, go ahead and start out by writing it down, but eventually you can just do it on the fly. So that's what I'd recommend. I love it. Yeah, no, it's super helpful.

It also highlights. So if you're familiar with probably Susan Jeffers book, Feel the Fear and do it Anyway. And in there, one of her main solutions. First of all, fear is natural. And fear is a sign of stepping into uncertainty, stepping outside your comfort zone. I love that you pointed that out because I think there's this desire to I want to overcome my anxiety or not have social anxiety anymore. And therefore I want to live a life of no fear whatsoever. And well, well, then one option is to live, restrict all uncertainty and risk and unknown and just live in a bubble which is, you know, that's definitely how I lived for many years, as much as I could. But then the other option is to step into uncertainty and say, well, how can I reorient my experience of uncertainty? And so one tool in there that I hear you guiding people towards is if they can say, how would I cope with that worst case scenario is helping them get a sense. And this is what Susan points out, is if we can really in our gut, have a belief and a feeling that I can handle whatever happens, that's our best approach to being able to be. To be able to tolerate living a life of growth and of stepping into the unknown. And I'm curious. So I've been fascinated by this for many years and I used a lot of this to overcome all sorts of social anxiety and fear. And what I'm always curious about is, and as I've grown, my life has gotten better as I've taken more risk. And I realized somewhere along the way, like, wow, the more uncertainty that you can work with and tolerate, the more life you can live, the more experience you can have, the more leadership I can take on, the more impact I can have in the world. And so I've done that. And I've just been constantly working on these things to sort of retrain my nervous system and my mind to work with uncertainty and be with it in a new way. I have to say that every time I do that, I then up the level of uncertainty that I take on or step into a new role or do these things. And then there's some part of me that's like, is there a way to fundamentally change it? So it's not. Because what I do is a lot of what this process is, right, okay, let's work through the fear, let's get to their side of it. Let's see if I can handle it. But I'm like, is there a way to fundamentally change our relationship to uncertainty to where we aren't afraid of it, especially at higher levels of confidence? That's one thing I'm really fascinated about your, your experience with.

Yeah. So I guess there's a couple of things I'd say to that. One is, okay, so there is. I'll relate this to the, the feeling of, okay, there's a prevailing belief that we have to feel like doing something before we do it. We have to kind of be in the mood before we take action. We have to feel like going to the gym before we go to the gym. We have to feel like sitting down and working on our great American novel before we sit down at the computer. But really, that's backwards. That what we need to do is to put action first. And so I'm sure many of us have had the experience where we, oh, I don't want to go exercise, but okay, I told my buddy I would go meet him there, so here I go. And then once we get there and once we get into the rhythm, we're glad we went. We're glad. We're happy that we did it. Our mood catches up. We sit down at the computer and start typing away. And then inspiration finds us working. So action first. And so I think that applies to tolerating uncertainty as well and really building that muscle, because I think we often wait till we feel ready. And so I think if we can put action first and do the thing, step into the uncertainty, when we're like, 70% ready, not 100% and certainly not 120%, like a lot of us do, a lot of us are over preparers. But to try to. To go with the green light, when you feel 70, 75% ready, then if it goes well, you're like, hey, that worked out okay. You recalibrate your expectations of a situation and your belief in your own ability. Like, hey, I pulled that off. I could make that work. And then your risk tolerance goes up and you're like, okay, well, maybe now I can step into something where I'm 60% ready and try that out, you know? And, you know, we might fail along the way. You know, we might be like, whoa, okay, I had no idea I needed to know XYZ before I started this. But then. Then we go back and do it. And so I think when. I like to say that when you see yourself doing something, you start to believe you can. And so I think that applies to tolerating that uncertainty and being able to step into risk. You don't have to feel like doing it. You don't have to be ready, but just get started, and then your tolerance will catch up, your mood will catch up, et cetera.

I love that. And so that leaning into uncertainty before we're ready, I mean, that really seems like a fundamental through line, no matter where anyone is in the process, because no matter whether it's the uncertainty of, is this person gonna like me or not? Or the uncertainty of how the presentation's gonna go, or even higher levels of risk and uncertainty, it's a Part of the process. And so one thing that people think of sometimes, it's often talked about as like a personality trait or something, like something that's fixed and it's arguable if anything's fixed totally. But risk tolerance is something that people talk about, especially when it comes to investing. But you know, sometimes as well as in life, and I think a lot of people perceive that as maybe a fixed thing. And what I'm hearing in this discussion is, but I want to double check with the question, do you perceive that our risk tolerance is fluid, is flexible and that it's like a muscle and that we could keep increasing our risk tolerance? Is there sort of a range? Do you think that people, some people, it's like, well, you can increase it some, but you're never going to become like that person over there who's a crazy risk taker. What's your thought on how expandable this trade is?

Sure, I think so. I have kind of a picture in my head when I talk about things that, where it's arguable whether this is like a state or a trait, you know, whether this is something that's baked in or something that, you know, is quite malleable. So I think of a boat that's, you know, floating in the, you know, some body of water, but it's, it's, it's anchored. But that anchor lets, lets the boat, you know, kind of drift and go within a certain range. Like it can, you know, as the winds change or as the current changes, it can, it can go quite, quite a distance based on, you know, how long that, you know, that chain on the anchor is. And so I feel like it's kind of the same thing with, I guess for this example, risk tolerance. Risk or we could argue the same for like kind of introversion, extroversion, that we all have a fairly baked in range. Somebody who is, you know, extremely risk averse or, you know, very kind of conservative, you know, in their emotional expression or, you know, whatnot, is probably not going to flip flop and become somebody who dances on the bar. But there's a range and, and so we can absolutely work to get to the top of our range or you know, just to kind of expand where we are within our range. And, and that I think our, and I think our range is surprisingly bigger than, than we think it is. If you had asked me, you know, 10, 15 years ago, like that was before, you know, the introversion movement. But if you had asked me like, do you think you could ever, you know, not be an introvert. Do you think, you know, that you could picture yourself being outgoing or looking forward to parties or. Or being excited to go to events? I would say, I would have said, are you kidding? No way. Not never happening. But, you know, as I've a just gotten older, as time has passed, people naturally kind of mellow and, you know, and grow in their confidence as they get older. But also, you know, done some, some work on myself and like, really tried to stretch and put myself in situations that were challenging. You know, I look forward to dancing at weddings. I look forward to, you know, going to, you know, meet new people. And so I never thought I would have had some of those extrovert traits before, but. But I. But at this point, after, you know, some time and some work I do. So I know that that range is pretty big, is pretty flexible. So. Absolutely. I think it's a combination.

And there's something about our tendency to reduce. We tend to perceive a lot of things, I think, as more fixed than they are because to go outside of them is initially different and uncomfortable even. A lot of things that I think people attribute, oh, this is just my personality, this is just the kind of person I am is because we just have a habit of that. It's familiar, it's comfortable. And in fact, I want to get your thoughts on that. I feel like introversion is a very complex and there's a lot of bleeding in of other states and experiences. And I think especially in the work of social anxiety and shyness, there's a lot of people will describe themselves as an introvert and I'll say, oh, tell me more. And then they'll describe a lot of things that I would perceive as social anxiety that they think of as introversion. And I think the downside of that is introversion. Most people versus extroversion, most people perceive that as pretty fixed. And this is just how I am, and this is just who I am. And so when they start putting in things that are social anxiety into the introvert bucket, then I think they start to say, well, it's just. I just, yeah, I just don't like being around people. I never dance in a setting like that, and that's because then I'm an introvert. And so what are your thoughts on how do you help people navigate that who maybe do have more introvert tendencies? How do you help them separate those and still honor themselves and not try to be a whole different person, but then tease apart what's actually just maybe patterns of fear or anxiety?

Yeah, no, I think the biggest difference between introversion and social anxiety can be demonstrated by the fact that there are quite a few socially anxious extroverts that I always, I mentioned this guy in like every interview, but he's such a great example where so I chatted with a guy who identifies as an extrovert. So he is a teacher and a stand up comic. He loves being in front of people, but he is always afraid that they are judging him. Like he, it takes everything he's got to get up on stage or to get up in front of a class. And so he gets his energy from people but is simultaneously scared of them. And it's a really hard place to be in, to be a socially anxious extrovert because then you to back up. So extroverts, you know, will often get energy from interacting with other people. They have a much higher tolerance and need for stimulation. And so if folks who are extroverted and kind of need to interact to get that energy and to be stimulated avoid, then they are stuck between this rock and a hard place of being sluggish and bored or being scared. And so that's a no win situation. So introversion as we know is kind of a baked in personality training. Great. And at the same time, I think there are some major differences. An introvert may decide to go home from the party after, you know, half an hour because their energy is drained, not because they're scared. People are judging them. Social anxiety is fundamentally about what I call the reveal, where we're worried that at some moment, unless we work very hard to conceal or to hide this thing that we think is wrong with us, it will become obvious to everybody, will be revealed as stupid or incompetent or, you know, socially awkward or not funny or not cool to hang out with and insert any undesirable trait here. And we're worried that that will become obvious to everybody and they will judge or reject us for it. That's the heart of social anxiety, that fear. And there is none of that fear in introversion. In introversion, it's a preference for less stimulation or recharging by being alone or with people, you know. Well, it's about energy and stimulation. It's not about fear. So I think that's the biggest difference there. Yes, yes, I stop there for now.

It's such a fascinating topic. Right. We could probably do a whole conversation about that. I mean, because, and I'm so glad that you're sharing this because I think unless people study social anxiety and maybe read your book about how to Be yourself and really get a better sense of it without knowing that it can be very hard to tease apart when what is preference versus what is fear? Because oftentimes the fear is more subtle. And I know you mentioned this at the very beginning of our conversation, that one of your strategies when you were experiencing more social anxiety was to be extremely nice in conversations. And I know that one well. And so when someone is being very nice in conversations and afraid to reveal, that's exhausting, that's draining. Oh my gosh. It's the most unfulfilling Persona that you're putting up and then you're not able to share and you're going down a conversation road that you might not be interested in at all for 45 minutes. And so again, that might seem like, oh, I just don't like talking to people. But actually it's the way that we're doing it. So I think that the more that we study this social anxiety and start to be willing to test things out, expand our behavioral repertoire to take those risks, then you can really see, okay, this moment really is about me just wanting to have some downtime or not be in this really stimulating environment. And it's not coming from that. I'm scared in this moment.

Yeah, There's a difference between being drained or exhausted and being scared. And that we have to be really honest with ourselves about which one it is. And sometimes it can be a mix of both. It is not super cut and dried. And so I do give for everybody. I also say, give yourself some slack. We're trying not to aim for perfection here. And sometimes you might get it wrong. And that's okay. We've got our whole lifetimes to work on this. And so it's okay to bail from the party once in a while or to say, I'm just not feeling it tonight. I'm going to throw in the towel tonight and try again later. That that's okay, as long as that becomes the exception and not every time, it's fine. So I say for people to give themselves some permission and always to be kind to themselves. Being kind and using self compassion doesn't always mean taking the easiest road. It doesn't mean letting ourselves off the hook. We still have to do hard things, but we can be kind and understanding to ourselves while we do them.

See, this is where you And I differ, Dr. Hendrickson. I am like, it's 100% here at Shrink for the Shy Guy, we say 100%, go big or go home. And so you no mistakes, no fleeing we will face every fear. And I like to take people out into public and have them do the most horrendously embarrassed things. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. Your message is so on point with what we're talking about and absolutely. I just think that's such a strong pressure, especially as we're perfectionists trying to become more confident. It's like, okay, I'm going to do it 100% exactly. And it's so intense. I love your message and I have two last things I want to share. One is where can people find. Obviously, they can go to your book, go to Amazon and go, you know how to be yourself. Go quiet your inner critic and rise above social anxiety. We'll have a link down at Shrink for the Shy Guy below this episode. But what about a website or a place people can go to find more about not only this book, but your work in general and everything you're up to?

Yeah, absolutely. So it's easy to remember that. Ellenhendrickson.com and there I have a newsletter that I send out with more tips and folks can sign up for that. And I will deliver tools and tips right to your inbox on a regular basis. So please do sign up for that.

Fantastic. Okay. And then one last thing is every single episode of Shrink for the Shy Guy for the last five years, we've ended with an action step. And usually I will complete an interview with someone and then we'll later then I'll share a specific action step from the interview. But I thought it would be really fun today, though, is because I know you help people get into action all day long. And so given this conversation that we had, what would you say is one specific action step that you'd recommend that someone listening might take? So they don't just listen and get inspired or insight, but they also are moving forward and growing in some way. Is there any action that comes to mind that you think would be valuable for listeners?

Absolutely. So we are recording this during the coronavirus crisis. And so we're all practicing social distancing, which personally, I think is a misnomer because it should not be social distancing. It's physical distancing. We're all supposed to be six feet apart from each other. This is physical. And so in terms of the social aspect, this is our chance to reach out to people that we have been hesitant to reach reach out to because it seems too out of the blue or it seems too random, you know, like that the colleague we were, you know, really friendly with two jobs ago, but we've lost touch with or the friend from high school or the friend from, you know, who's across the country that we used to see all the time, but then we moved. This is the perfect time to reach out to those people who were kind of on the edges of our social circle and say, hey, how are you holding up? Like, this is so crazy. I'm thinking about you. How are you and your family? How are you doing? Do you still have a job? Are you okay? How can I help you? This is the perfect time to reach out and to reconnect with people who we have lost touch with. So I would challenge people to just to try to connect with somebody every day or daily ish. And just see how they're doing because it's going to be good for them. They'll be touched. I always say, if you are hesitant, turn the tables and imagine how you would feel if they contacted you and said, hey, how are you doing? This time is so crazy. I just wanted to check in on you and see how you're doing. How would you feel? Would you be like, oh, this is so random and weird and creepy? No, you'd probably be delighted. And so assume as a reasonable person that your reaction will be the reaction of most reasonable people and then just go ahead and reach out. There's no better time.

I love it. Thank you so much for being with us on the show. And by all means, I highly recommend people read your book and absolutely go to your website. We'll have the links down below. Thank you again for joining us on the show.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

Well, there you have it. That is my interview with Dr. Ellen Hendrickson. We already took care of our action step, so go do it. Do it. Reach out, man. There's always a good time. There's never. It's never a bad thing to reach out to someone. I mean, there's always a benefit in it for you, for them. So I love that advice, that action step and until we speak again, may have the courage to be who you are, to share who you are, to reveal who you are and to know on a deep level that you are awesome.

Foreign.

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