How To Confidently Talk About Sex & STDs With Alexandra Harbushka

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence, first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome to today's episode of the show. Today we have a really informative and fascinating interview with an expert who helps people understand herpes and other STDs, STIs, how to talk about this stuff, how to talk about sex, how to approach that whole area of your life, dating, and particularly the sexual aspect of dating, in a completely confident way, a way that's maybe very different than certainly how I approached it when I was younger, when I had a lot of issues with confidence that led me to not be that direct, not talk about sex, be very uncomfortable even bringing up the subject, even with someone I was going to have sex with. And then fears around how much to share, how much to ask, not really understanding much about STDs and STIs and how they could be transmitted and what the risks are and, you know, some basic education that came from, say, school at the time, but that's not really that much. Right. And it's in this day and age, you could probably find a lot more online. However, there's nothing that beats talking to someone who really has mastered this area and understands it inside and out and is incredibly articulate at being able to teach us all about how to do these things from a very practical standpoint. So whether you yourself have experience with an STD or an STI and are working through some of the confidence challenges that can arise from that, or this is someone that you know that's happened to, or you are just wanting to know how to navigate the dating landscape and have conversations about sex and how to talk about this kind of stuff and be really informed of your own sexual health. This is the interview for you. We go long. It's really in depth and it's very informative. So let's dive into that interview now. My guest expert today is Alexandra Harbushka, and she's the creator of LifeWithHerpes.com, and is on a mission to educate, entertain and connect the underserved and often ostracized community of people living with herpes. She's the host of two top ranking podcasts in itunes, Sex, Money and Food and Life with Herpes. Alexandra is an entrepreneur, a speaker, and is breaking the stigma when it comes to herpes. And before branching out on her own, she was in corporate America for over a decade within the realm of real estate and mortgage. And it was when she was the marketing director for the top mortgage company in the US that she learned the ins and outs when it comes to marketing, promotion, and just plain old hard work. She's created an online community for people living with herpes where she provides support, security and education materials. Thank you so much for joining us, Alexandra.

Thanks, Aziz. I'm really excited to be here with you.

So one of the things that I love about what you're doing, well, first of all, you're taking all that knowledge and experience for marketing and then applying it to spreading a message that is absolutely essential and is covered with a lot of shame and privacy and people not wanting to talk about it. And one of the things I love about your approach is not only do you provide these resources and education, but you're also so open book and forthcoming about the whole thing, including your experience. And I think that's so healing for people. And so I'm wondering, for listeners who aren't familiar with you, can you share a little bit more about your story and why you got started down this path?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like you kind of said, you know, talking about herpes, it's something that you think you're never going to mention to anybody ever, like, except your partner. And you hope that your partner doesn't share that with anybody. So I was just like everybody else and I, you know, I went from not going to tell anybody and then now I told the whole world. So clearly there was a huge transformation that happened between zero to, you know, putting it on a podcast, YouTube, getting out there. But really what had happened with my diagnosis? I was in my late 20s. You know, I had this, I'm like, where should I start with this story? The idea of herpes, the idea of an STD and the idea of dating, those are all things that our society has already put a definition on, right? You should be married by this age. You should date this person. You should, should, should. You know, the person with an std, we all have our own definition of them, but they're, you know, quote unquote dirty. They slept around, they deserved it. They, you know, whatever. Whatever you want to put in that idea of an std, that's what that person is, right? And I realized that when I was diagnosed with herpes, I went, oh, my gosh, I'm not this person at all. How is it that I have this yet I'm not that person? And so that didn't happen overnight. It took two years. But it's a. It's a very powerful moment because you start, you know, you Google and you're like, okay, who's the demographic? And da, da, da, da, da, da, da da. And it just turns out that whether it's herpes, whether. Whatever STD it is, sti. However you want to put it, it is. It's something like we don't sign up for. And really, really, we should be doing sex education. That's more like, hey, if you have sex, you're going to get this kind of, like, if you go into the office during the holidays, you're going to get the cold. A cold or a flu or whatever is going around the office. Like, it just is what it is, opposed to shaming it and making people feel bad. So back to my story on being diagnosed. You know, I was in my late 20s. I was 28 years old. I was dating somebody. I absolutely trusted him. And all of a sudden, one day I went, ooh, that doesn't feel right. And as the day went on, I'm like, ooh, that really something really doesn't feel right. And then you're like, oh, gosh, like, something is really not right. I'm in a lot of pain. Never thinking it would be herpes, of course, because I would never get that. That's the mindset. And I know your listeners right now who are listening, who have herpes or have contracted some other sti. They're thinking the same thing in their mind. Like, I would never get that. And so, of course, I go into the doctor, and she looks at it and goes, well, I don't think it's herpes, but I'm going to go on ahead and test you. And, you know, you get the phone call. Whatever. 24 or 40 hours later, I don't really recall. But that phone call of hearing the doctor on the other line say, alexandra, I'm sorry to tell you you have genital herpes was. It was an extreme, pivotal moment in my life. I didn't realize it was pivotal at the time, but it was an extreme. You know, like you're almost in slow motion or deer in the headlights or how do I Move forward. The anger hadn't set in, but it was just absolute shock. Like, no, there has to be something wrong. There's no way. Like, there's no way that I would pick somebody to sleep with that would have herpes, because I just wouldn't pick that. Right. That's. That's your mind. That's all of our mindsets. So I. After digesting the information, I called my best friend, and she had the best. And this was all within minutes. She had the best piece of advice, and she said, alexandra, what you need to do right now is not talk to me, but you need to hang up the phone, and you need to go tell your partner and your past partners, because really, we don't know who it came from at the moment. You don't know. It's assuming it's the person that you're with. But at the same time, as I can get into more about herpes later on, you don't really know necessarily who it came from. And. And so that was the best piece of advice. And she said, you're going through this right now, and you don't know how to digest it. And showing that emotion to somebody else will be extremely helpful when you're explaining to them like, hey, I have herpes. Do you have herpes? Opposed to a month down the line when you're angry or pissed off or in that rage mindset or. Or if you've gone past that and digested it and you're okay with it, and it's like, oh, I have herpes. Do you. You know, like, there's. There's so many different mindsets. So that was the best piece of advice that she gave me. And I did. I. I did what I could in person. And then, you know, the thing. The people I couldn't tell in person, and I went really far back in my history because I just thought, you know what? Let's just go all the way back pretty much and let them know. So I did my best. And the person I was dating, he was the last person I told that day because we had a date that night. And it's very interesting, the response you got from different people. Some people, it was like, oh, well, it wasn't for me because I would never sleep with anybody. Like, that kind of like what I just had mentioned earlier, the default. It's not for me, clearly. Or it was, oh, my gosh, I am so sorry. I don't think it's from me, but how can I be here for you right now? Like, what. What do you need, because you're clearly not. Okay. So that was also very interesting. Or it was the. You are an absolute slut. Get out of my life. So it was all spectrums. It was a very interesting process to hear the person I want.

Can I jump in real quick? That right there is a high level of courage. So you're talking literally, like, the day you find out.

Yeah, within hours. Like, within minutes.

I mean, that's really powerful. And your willingness to engage in those conversations and to receive back whatever comes your way, like, there's a level of kind of going into the unknown there that I think, you know, many listeners would just be in awe of.

Right. We either fight, fight, flight, or freeze in any of this. And. And I thought to myself, after I hung up the phone with my best friend, I thought to myself, okay, if this was my future self or if this was somebody I really cared about and I could prevent her or him from getting it, how would I do that? And it's basically somebody else didn't have the courtesy, courage, whatever word you want to put in there to make that phone call. Because had somebody else made that phone call and say, hey, this popped up. You need to go get tested, it would. It would prevent the transmission. I mean, not transmission. It would. It would prevent the spread of what herpes is. And that. It's because people are so scared to mention it, and they're like, I just won't say anything, and hopefully it'll just never come back to me. And so I just thought, okay, if I could prevent somebody else from getting this, because that's the reason why I have. It is because somebody didn't pick up that phone.

Yeah. Yeah. It's powerful. And you did that. And so you made all these calls, and then the last person you talked to about it with was the person I was dating. You were dating. And what happened there?

He's the one that called me a slut. And it was very interesting. So prior to going over to his house, I, of course, had to go to the pharmacy to pick up my antiviral, and at the same time, I had a yeast infection. So I had a yeast infection. I had just been diagnosed with herpes, and I also had my period. So when I was checking out at the pharmacy, I bought chocolate, I bought wine, I bought tampons, picked up my herpes antiviral and my yeast infection antifungal. You know, the pharmacist was like, whoa, this girl's really having a bad day. I can laugh at it now. And I probably was Just like, whatever, this is my life right now. So when I told the guy I was dating and he's like, whoa, the pharmacist was, must have thought you were such a slut. Like, that was his response. And I was like, well, that's not really. That's not what I was thinking. I was thinking, he must have thought I was really having a bad day, which I was. And yeah, the guy that, you know, the person you're dating, you don't. You want. You want that person to be there for you. When you have sex with somebody, you don't realize it, but you are sharing every bit and part of yourself with this person. You are opening up in so many different ways. And you. And sex now is very casual. And I think we still forget that. And so when you are with somebody, you hope that they will show that same respect. And here I was, crushed, devastated, basically knowing it was from him, and he called me a slut, kicked me out of his house, you know, called me a bunch of names. Of course, now as I'm telling the story years later, it's not as. What's the word I'm looking for? I'm not as shaken by it, but I mean, I was just absolutely devastated that he would call me these names and basically say like, you brought this into my house. You get out of here. Of course, you know, my. At that point, my self esteem was low. We made up and we continued to date for two years. And that's a whole other story if you want to go down that. But the point that I really try to drive to my community and to people when they are diagnosed with herpes is you are on this emotional roller coaster because you have society telling you you're an awful person. You're going like, well, I'm not this awful person. I got it from my boyfriend, I got it from my girlfriend, I got it from my spouse. I got it. I don't know where it came from. I haven't had sex in three years and I just got this like, whatever it is, like we there. There is no stereotype for people with herpes. There is this awful stigma out there. And the crazy thing is is the majority of the population actually has herpes. Yet were the people driving the stigma? I drove the stigma. I was, as I mentioned in the beginning, like I said I was. I would never date that person. I would never have sex with that person. Ew. Right? And I can guarantee everybody listening right now has this idea of the person. Like, you can create the image of the person in your mind who has herpes. And the fact of the matter is there is not one characteristic. There's not. We all are that person. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, when you said that, like the people. Because I know people that do and what comes. I mean, you know, some are parents, some are at all different ages. And so my perception was, I think the stigma is really interesting because I think growing up in the culture, I had that as well. For me, it manifested as fear. Fear of getting it, you know, sort of like in my mind it was sort of like, oh, a certain percentage of people just are unlucky. Yeah, this is my psychology right at the time. And those people, and they're not necessarily worse or, you know, a slut or something like. It's just like, hey, if you're in with the right person at the right. In the right context, then that's what would happen. And you said something really interesting there. You said, well, actually most people have it. Have it. Are you talking about genital herpes or both? Oral herpes?

Both. So whether, I don't know, depending on how you want to look at this, whether you're lucky or unlucky, the majority of people with herpes do not show symptoms. So that's great news for the majority of the population that don't show symptoms, which means you're not getting outbreaks. What that does mean is that you probably haven't been tested or you have been tested, you know about it, but you're like, I don't get outbreaks, I'm not going to worry about it. The problem with that is, is you still are able to transmit it without any symptom. So that's kind of the sneaky side of this, of this virus. It's not your typical virus. And that's one of the reasons why there's been so many. It's been very difficult to find a vaccine for. It is because it is sneaky. It's incubation period is different in every person's body. And the way it shows up in a person is different in every single person. So it's really hard. It's like shooting targets in the dark. You can't really figure it out. But yeah. So what's really interesting is 70% of transmissions occur without an actual outbreak. That's huge.

And the testing is such that someone who's never had an outbreak can go get tested. And is it accurate results or is it percentage chances that you may have it?

So here's how it works. And there's basically two types of tests. There's one that is a. Well, I guess there's three types. There's one that's a clinical diagnosis, which is a visual, which, you know, a doctor can look at it and go, yep, that's herpes. And in most people that have outbreaks, you can say, yep, that's an outbreak. You know, it's like, yep, that's a zit. Like, you know, like we've all had a zit and we can look at like that's clearly a bad zit. You know what I mean? So same thing, like doctors can look at herpes and go, yeah, that's definitely a herpes. That's a clinical diagnosis. There's also one that is a culture or a swab of the actual outbreak. So it's when a doctor would take something, you know, like a Q tip looking thing, go into the open sore and get a swab of the active virus and then test that. So that is one type and then the other type is when you would do a blood test, which means you're looking for the antibodies. Now there's pros and cons to all of them. So if you're doing a clinical diagnosis of just visual, there is more room for error on that one. But the other thing that's not great is you don't necessarily know what strain you have. There are two strains. The really good news with a visual diagnosis is you can get diagnosed faster, meaning you can get the antiviral in your system faster, which is really key to getting over the outbreak. So that's the clinical diagnosis. Then we were doing the swab. The pros and cons to that are you have to have an outbreak. So if it's too early, like if you, if the doctor view swabs, it too soon or too late, like after it's scabbed over and it's almost healed, if you're not in that window, you're gonna test negative. So a lot of people will say they were swabbed, but it'll show up negative. It's because they maybe were not in that window. And then the third type, like the blood type, that one's very accurate. But the problem is that you have to have the antibodies in your body. So if you were just diagnosed, the antibodies are not gonna show up. So it's gonna take time.

And so let's say someone who is. You said 70% of the population has the herpes virus.

Sorry, no. 70% of transmissions occur without a outbreak. So one of the myths of like well, just before you have sex with the person, just do a visual. You can't. I mean, you can't tell.

So someone who has never had an outbreak goes and gets tested. Obviously, their only option would be the third option, the blood test, and then they're looking for antibodies. If they do not have antibodies, is that pretty conclusive that they do not have herpes?

That's pretty conclusive. They do not have herpes. Yeah, that's pretty conclusive.

Okay, well, I really appreciate this because I think, you know, obviously me, and I imagine many listeners, it's because there's so much stigma and shame around it that this is not taught and it's not common knowledge and which is, again, crazy to think about that. This and any other sti, Our main defense is like, head in the sand, ignorance and hope you don't get caught. And that's it. And that's pretty.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, you know, it goes back to the whole saying of like, well, don't sleep around or just wrap it up and you'll be fine or whatever that is that, you know, you were told it's. It's 100% false. So it doesn't. The virus doesn't care who it was. It doesn't care if it's a spouse and you're having sex in the right way. Right. Like you're. You're married, whatever that is, or it doesn't care if you have an entire harem. It doesn't matter who, what, when, or where. This virus itself is a living being, and it just wants to survive. Right. So it's going to do its best to multiply. That's it. Like, you got to look at it too, as a living being. Right. It's going to do what it can to transmit it to somebody else so it can survive, it can keep going. It's its way of having children, you know?

Yeah, well, so this, this kind of goes into the, you know, how to navigate the landscape. So I want to kind of come at it from two angles. One, I want to come at it from like, okay, what about, you know, because everyone listening who's sexually active, probably you want to have conversations with their sexual partners, you know, which is something that, you know, when I had low confidence, I would not do out of fear and discomfor. Discomfort, just awkwardness around sex. And as I got older and more confident and worked on it, I did have conversations, but they still were. It was only in the last few relationships before I met my wife that they were Much more detailed. So I'd love to hear your thoughts about how to talk about it in general. And then I'm also really curious about specifically someone who has a herpes or another sti, how to some of the experiences of fears, fears of being judged, how to talk about it, all that stuff. But before we do, let's keep it broad. How would you recommend people, let's say, you know, they met someone, they're dating, they like them, they want to have sex.

What natural and beautiful and people should. Yeah. So the really important thing for us being sexually active adults is you need to take control of your sexual health. If you don't respect your health, your body, your needs, then nobody else is. So just like what you were saying, Aziz, is early on in dating, you're like, I just kind of avoided the conversation because I didn't have the confidence to stand up or have that really awkward conversation about sex. Right. We're not taught to talk about sex. It's a very taboo topic. And unfortunately, it's something that we really need to have conversations about because it's something that we all do. And it is risky in the sense that you can end up with a virus that can change or alter your life. Right. Personally, I don't think herpes alters your life. So if you're wondering, I think it's like a hiccup. That's it. But there are other things that can absolutely alter your life. And so it is really important that you stand up for yourself. The other thing I want to say before I get into your last question, is when you being a responsible, sexually active adult, as awkward as it is to get tested for STDs, STIs, you need to do it. It's just like getting your oil changed. You know how important it is to get your oil changed every whatever thousand miles your car requires. And you do it right, because you know if you don't do it, your car is not going to run. It's the same about getting tested. And the other thing that's really important is you specifically have to ask for a herpes test. Herpes is not included in the general STD tests, so you have to ask for it specifically. So that's another key, which is I have huge issues with that. It's not included, but you do need to ask for it. So that's very important. Make sure that that is up there. But. But before you jump into bed or get in between the sheets with somebody, it's back to your sexual health and all that. So we're taught to have sex through movies, right? We're taught through Hollywood. We're taught through drama and suspense and romance. And, you know, we're taught, like, oh, you know, the women see this idea of, like, there's going to be rose petals lining, you know, the way to the bedroom, candle lit with violins playing. And men look at it as like some hot porno, right? Like, yeah, this is just. She's just gonna, like, drop her panties. It's gonna be awesome, right? And like, I don't know about you, but neither one have just ever happened, right? Like, it's just not how it happens. And what's lacking in Hollywood and what we see is really the conversation of sexual health. That conversation, I get how when you're in the moment, it is this unbelievable urge. And I get it. And I've been there and I've done it, and we've probably all done it. But it is very important to have the talk prior to getting. Becoming sexually active. And the talk, in my opinion that I've seen work the best with my community is, hey, I want to have sex with you. Like, however you want to say it. I want to take this to the next level. I really like you. I like where this is going. Not sure when we're going to get there. However, I want to talk about sexual health and I want to talk about both of our sexual health. So we need to talk about when the last time was we were tested. We need to talk about birth control. We need to talk about kind of what isn't. Is is the plan here. And I think. And I'd like to hear your opinion, Aziz, but I feel that women are less confident in this conversation because we really want the guy to like us. We're not going to ask questions like, am I the only one you're sleeping with? Are there other women? Where are you? Like. And you don't necessarily want to have the like, what are your intentions Talk like, you know, but you want to know. Hey, like, I want to know where this is. And you as the person in this relationship is need to decide what you feel comfortable with. If it's okay that your partner has multiple other partners, great. But I think it's just fair that you know and vice versa, if you have multiple other partners, it's fair that that partner knows because again, you're unknowingly putting this person at risk. I just think it's a fair thing to do. It's a really hard conversation because it does force a relationship conversation. And again, we don't always want to force that conversation. We don't want to seem like a stage five clinger. But remember, it's your body and if you don't respect it, nobody else is.

Yeah, I love it. And it's interesting. Having worked and taught around confidence in dating and relationships as well as other areas for years now, everything you're saying doesn't seem unreasonable. It seems like, oh, yeah, of course I'd want to do that. And maybe having worked a lot with people around assertiveness for years too, it becomes, it seems really off to me now to not do that. And the magnitude of what you were talking about with sex earlier, about just kind of this total openness and merger with someone, even if it's not perceived that way, it is both on an emotional, biological level, but then if they are sleeping with someone else and you, you are directly now in contact. And so it's very much a level of being on your own side and taking care of yourself and putting yourself first and your own health first in a very healthy self interest kind of way, non self sacrificing kind of way. And I think that that conversation, you know, it's really interesting because if the person who's like, I don't want to have that conversation might repel the person, that might turn them off. But it's almost like I see it as like a polarizing magnet or a filter. It's really like a filter to see what kind of quality of maturity does this person have to talk about sex, to work with emotions, to be able to communicate. Like, yeah, we're just early on and this doesn't mean that we're going to be, you know, in a relationship that's, you know, maybe we're just still wanting to date other people. And yet this is important for me to know, to even do at that level, even play it at that level. And it reminded me when you were talking that. So Candice, my wife now, before we slept together, she wanted me to have another std, STI test because I'd had one. But I don't, you know, my oil changes, I don't know if they were that regular, you know.

Right.

It was probably a year or so previously. And she's like, well, have you slept with other people since then? I was like, yeah. And she's like, okay, well, before we sleep together, I would, you know, this is part of a broader conversation we were having about it. And for me, instead of that being a turnoff or something, I was like, okay, I will do that. It's probably good for me to do that anyway. And I want to be closer with you and what you're saying makes sense. And so there's like, if you're with someone who's mature, then that won't be this weird turnoff. And if you're someone who's very immature and they react or try to push past that or something, that's a red flag that you would want to not have sex with that person.

Absolutely. And people say, well, I don't want the rejection. Well, the truth of the matter is you could be rejected for some totally other reason that has nothing to do with sexual. That has nothing to do with STIs. They may just want to get in your pants for that evening and plan on rejecting you because they don't like that you have like five cats, whatever it is, right. So if this is like the first barrier, that's like, you know what? Get them out, great. There's so many more people out there that like you just said, yeah, I want to go get tested for you because I really respect you and you respect yourself. And so I'm going to respect you and I'm going to respect myself. It just takes the relationship to a whole new level and a whole. It takes it to just respect. Absolute respect.

Yeah. And you know, you were talking about self esteem earlier and that, you know that relationship when you're in the late 20s and you referenced, well, maybe I stayed longer because I didn't, you know, the implication was if you had higher self esteem, you might have let that night end the relationship. And, and there's something about that, I think for people, for women to realize and for men to realize that as your self esteem goes up and as your confidence goes up, you realize that you're the selector. And if someone is coming to you and they're like, I want to sleep with you, and you're like, well, let's have this conversation. And instead of that repelling them, it's like you are. It's like a barrier to entry. It's like, if you really want it, you got to climb over this wall.

Right?

And, and that's. I think it's a, it's a total mind shift because sometimes people feel like, no, I'm the one chasing. I'm the one just trying to take scraps, whatever I can get.

Right?

And it's actually like, no, if you shift it, it shifts it. And it's really true. Like, just imagine this. If you're listening, whoever you're into, men or women or transgender the person that you're, that you're most attracted to. And there they are. And like, oh my gosh, you have a date with them and yes, it's going really well. And then you have another date. Oh my God, you're so into them. And then, you know, you start to talk about, seem to move towards sex. You're like, yeah, we're have sex can be so great. And that person sits you down and says, hey, I want to talk to you about a few things. First, most people in those in that position would just be like, yeah, okay, great. But okay, what else? Tell me more. Like, I'm so into you, what do.

I need to do?

Yeah, yeah, what do I need to do? And that again is back to that filter and that self esteem. So the reason I'm circling back to that is because this mindset opens up the possibility to have that conversation. Because otherwise we can have all the best things to talk about and know what we should talk about on paper. But then in the moment those old patterns of grasping or I'm not enough kick in and we really want to shift that so it doesn't happen.

And I want to touch on two things on that. One is the before I go there, the other I want to rewind is I like to use the analogy of having the sex talk. Same as you would never walk through a restaurant and like pick up the rest of somebody's burger and start eating it or they're half eaten pizza, they're half eaten pasta, or they're half eaten salad or whatever. Like that would just be disgusting. Like you would never go up to a total stranger and just start eating the rest of their meal. Yet we will sleep with somebody that we don't know and think nothing of it.

Yeah, it's pretty crazy, isn't it? Yeah, I love that perspective that you like in it too.

You know, like that would be disgusting to like walk up and like start eating half of someone's chicken wing. You know, like, can I gnaw on that too? Like that would be gross. But yet it's no problem to have sex with somebody that you don't know right now.

Let me ask you, this might just be curiosity, but to me, what popped in my head when you said that is like, well, the evolutionary drive to eat a chicken wing. I mean, food. Yes, but like that specific food is like, well, whatever, you know, in our day and age, there's an abundance of food. I could eat something else, I could buy my own. But when it comes to sex and like the Drives behind sexual. It's like, you know, whatever's triggered in us, we're like, I want to have sex with that person. And it like overrides. It can override everything, like all the logic, all the, you know, the description you're giving here. And it's just, I think it's really fascinating that we're dealing with such a powerful force. And I wonder if in our history, and you probably know a lot more about this than I do, but long ago history, I wonder if there was a prevalence, such a prevalence of STDs and STIs. I'm talking like maybe many thousands of years ago.

Yeah, I bet there was. I bet it was the same just because of the hygiene. I spoke with a scientist from the Salk Institute in San Diego, UCSD research, University of San Diego Research, Salk Institute. And he was a viral specialist and he specialized in HIV and hsv. And HSV is short for herpes. And first of all, he got really excited that I was going to, like somebody wanted to talk to him about this. But he's been.

I've been preparing for this moment.

Yes, like somebody that's not a scientist. But basically he said that herpes has been. Every living vertebrate has herpes, their own type. We've been living with it since, you know, beginning of this earth. It's just what goes along with, with living like herpes. There's over a hundred different herpes viruses out there. There's really only eight that affect humans, that play a role in our life. But herpes has just, it's, it's just part of life. It just goes with us. It. It is what it is.

That's fascinating. Well, so that, you know, my intellectual curiosity could probably go for hours on that kind of stuff, but to keep it really, you know, practical for listeners. So I think that that's a great information and pointers you shared around the conversation. What about when someone does have, you know, the moment they find. There's kind of that dramatic moment of finding out and then the different stages. You talked about anger or the things that can work through. But one thing I really want to ask you about is what I mean, no doubt people, because of the shame, because of the stigma, someone has it. I just wonder if someone is okay. First, they need to work through their own fear and judgment. But then another even bigger issue that's very relevant to my listeners around social anxiety is, look, I. Even if I get okay with this, the truth is that most people have these judgments about it and so won't, I won't partner or people that I want to date reject me. And you know, I know you could say, well, I should have really high self esteem, but I mean, aren't I really cutting down my pool? And when, you know, nine out of 10 people not want to sleep with me? You know, these are some of the concerns that I have actually heard from different people that are pretty early in that process of navigating that world. And I think you have such a wealth of information about this. So how does someone navigate it? How do they talk about it? Are they really facing a lot of judgment and rejection? What happens?

Yeah, well, a lot happens, right? So, so first when you're diagnosed, the, I mean one of the major things that's, that's, you know, crucial and at the forefront of your mind is like, how do I get rid of this? Like, so that's really what's on your mind. I'm insulting. So much pain. How do I get rid of this? Then once it goes away, then that's usually when the anger happens. That's when the, oh my gosh, how am I going to move forward? Oh my gosh, I have to stay with this person because nobody else will love me because I have this like, you know, like no one else is going to love me. I guess this is, this is the way that it's going to be. And not, that's not true. And it does, it takes time to get off that. I like to call it the emotional rollercoaster. Because on one hand your life has just shifted tremendously only because of a stigma and on the other hand it's just a stigma and your life is just the same and you're using this as a scapegoat for all other issues. So I really find the longer I work with people on this, they're using herpes as whatever it is that they feel like they can't achieve. It's because of herpes. I can't get that promotion at work. It's because of herpes. I can't graduate college. I had to drop out because of herpes. The guy or girl that I really like doesn't like me because I have herpes. I can't lose weight or get in shape. I can't go to the gym because I have herpes. I can't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's really, it's a really easy, easy, easy, easy, low hanging fruit to use as a scapegoat. And when you really dive deeper, that's not the issue. Right. The issue is something else. But I was guilty of it. You know, everybody that I talk to and in my community is guilty of it. At some point in time, as we use this, we feel alone. We feel like nobody's ever going to have sex with us. Nobody's ever going to want to even touch us, feel that we're. We think they're going to think that stigma of us. We can't do certain things maybe because we have herpes. You know, I hear from people in college, they're like, I just feel like I got gypped on my college experience because I can't date anymore. And I'm like, why can't you date? Like you can date. It's nothing to do with, you know, herpes has nothing to do with dating.

Yeah. So they kind of, they have it. And in that emotional roller coaster, there's probably just a lot of preconceived ideas of, you know, what's allowed and how it's going to go and how people react. And then they hit that, that internal wall of their ideas and don't actually test out what's really possible now.

Correct. So whatever it is, specifically, you and I are talking about dating, which is usually one, it's the biggest one that, you know, people think of. And. But again, it's anything from job to income to diet, whatever.

I mean, how does it. Is the job that. Because of the periodic effect of the painful outbreaks or just.

No. Well, there's. There are people, there are people that believe, like, hey, I really wanted to be a firefighter. I've had people ask me that I want to be a firefighter. Now I can't. And I'm like, you can be a firefighter. I like, you know, I was in ROTC and my dream is to become a, you know, a captain of a ship. And I can't go, I can't join the Navy now because they're going to do a physical test on me and they're going to find out I have herpes. And I'm like, what? Do you know how many people in the Navy have herpes? Like, please.

You know, so they have these like, totally, totally founded, made up story, and then they react to it and collapse. Oh, really? That's so interesting. So they're kind of. We talk a lot on the show about what I call our safety police, which is the internal collection of voices that tell us that we can't do things, to not put ourselves out there, to not try, that it's gonna fail, that no one's gonna like us. And then we believe those stories, and then we stay safe by not trying, not doing anything, not putting ourselves out there. So it sounds like they just plop. You know, this herpes is another character in the safety police that. Well, now it's.

And it's easy. It's easy. I can't have children. I can't date. I can't. No, nobody's going to find me attractive, so I might as well put on a bunch of weight because I don't need to worry about being healthy anymore, whatever it is. Yeah. So. So where am I?

That's not true. So what's. What's true?

What actually, so. So the truth is, is it the person being diagnosed has to come to terms with it and has to release it. Just go, like, you know what? I have other viruses in my body. I have the chickenpox virus. I have the most recent cold that I got. I have the flu virus. I have the whatever virus. I have mono. Whatever. Those viruses don't hold me back. Right? Like, I've never heard anybody say, well, I got the chickenpox, so I can't. I can't become a firefighter. Like, please, that would be ridiculous. Right? And it's funny, but it's. It's just as funny as saying herpes. Like, oh, I have herpes, so I can't. I can't graduate college. Like, what Something to do with graduating college. So you have to just put it into perspective and say, all this thing is it's a microscopic virus that two out of three people have HSV1 and one out of six have HSV2. So one of the things that I like to say is you look at some of the most powerful people in the world. Most powerful people. Pick three of them. Two out of the three of them statistically have herpes. Do you think that kept them from doing what they did to be the most powerful? Nope. Clearly it didn't stop them, so why should it stop you?

I love it. Yeah. So it's really taking total ownership of your. Of your life and not letting this, you know, particular experience of getting herpes become a determining factor that stops you from pursuing something that's meaningful to you.

Yeah.

And so what about. And I really, I mean, people. I get it, you know, when it comes to, say, some of the examples you gave, like, oh, it has nothing to do with graduating college or that sort of thing. But what about someone who's like, well, wait a minute. When it comes to dating and this. I know you help people with this, how do I talk about it? Won't I have most people not want to sleep with me? Isn't that a reality that I'm going to have to face?

Yeah. Well, the first thing is, as I like to tell people, dating has nothing to do with sex. So you can date. You can go on dates and not necessarily have sex with that person. Just because you go for coffee doesn't mean you're going to sleep with them. So I really like to, you know, really break down the idea of dating is we've been so programmed recently to say, well, dating means you're sleeping with the person and you can, like, you don't. I mean, you don't need to have sex to decide like, like, how many people did you go out with? And you're like, this is not the right person for me. Like, we are not compatible, and goodbye. Right? So it doesn't mean that you need to stop dating. What it does mean is that if you are going to have sex with that person, you do need to have a conversation with them. And we should have been having this conversation that we're about to have now because herpes is forcing you to have this conversation. This conversation should have been happening this entire time you are sexually active. And if, most likely, if you were having this conversation, you wouldn't have herpes, right? And so it forces you now to take the responsibility for your sexual health. So what I really like to recommend to people is don't feel like, don't feel like you're like bait and switch or like cheating a person if you don't tell them you have herpes on the first date. You know, you wouldn't go on a first date and say, gosh, you know what? My, my, my bank account right now is a little shaky. Like, whew, I got, you know, got down to that close zero end. You know, like, you would never talk about your finances. You'd never talk about your student debt. You never talk about, you know, how much something. So you don't talk about finances. You're not really going to talk about your health. You probably wouldn't mention, like, gosh, you know, I have this really bad back pain. Like, you're just not going to go there with it on first date. You're not going to share these things. You're also not going to share, like, you know, I use the example. If you want to have like 10 kids, you're probably not going to share that on the first date either. Most likely, if you don't want to have Children, you're probably not going to share that on the first date either. You're not like, you know what? Here's the deal. I don't want to have kids. So. So if you want to have kids, this date is over. Right? That's something you would have a conversation, a couple dates in.

I like that style. Just cut to the chase, right?

That's not how it works. Right.

Yeah, well, there's no. There's nothing. There's no foundation. Right. Like, you haven't actually built to see. You don't even know that there's a connection.

Yeah, you don't even know them. You don't even know if you're sexually attracted to them. Like, you have no idea if it's the first date, second date, you just don't know. So keep that in mind. Now, I do have people that say, you know what? I just throw it out there and see what happens. And that's great if that's your personality. And before you even go on the date, you want to tell them, hey, I have herpes. This is what it means. Let's talk about it. Great. Personally, I believe, hey, get to know the person, see if you even want to sleep with them, see if you even like them, see if they're even your type, and then go on a couple of dates. And when you know you're ready to sleep with them, that's when you have that conversation.

I love that. Yeah. Cause then you're also making sure that the stuff you were talking about earlier about maturity level and all those things, Right. You're getting a sense of what that person's about and what they want out of a connection and all those things to make sure if it's even worth having that conversation. If it feels like someone that you would want to, in a way, just go deeper with in terms of trust and vulnerability and then moving towards sex.

Right. It's like. It's almost like talking about your ex on the first date. Like, if someone's talking about how awful their ex is, like, that's a. Don't go on another date with them. That's bad. Like, I'm not on a date with your ex. I'm on a date with you, you know?

Absolutely.

I don't need this conversation. And, and, and one of the thing, and the way I like to open it, and I mentioned it before, is you just have the conversation about sexual health. Hey, I want to have this conversation with you. And what I wanted to mention before, remember when I said I have two things, but I Didn't I, like, stopped and shifted is a lot of. Not a lot of times. Every time until you've disclosed multiple times. You approach this. I have herpes as I am a really bad person. So you approach it as, like, with this mindset of almost like the kid that got their hand in the cookie jar and got caught.

Yeah. You're revealing it with, like, some sort of, like, bracing and guilt and like, oh, God, here we go.

I'm sorry I did something so wrong. Nobody's gonna forgive me for it. And I hope that you do.

Yeah.

Boo is how we approach it. And it shouldn't be, because chances are the person that you're gonna have this talk with has had sex, has been in situations where there's been like a. Oh, my God, like a scare or an oops or like, they're just as guilty of the same thing. Like, it's, It's. It's kind of like you were saying either, like, it just was like, random, like, certain people get herpes and certain people don't. Doesn't mean that it was a bad thing or a wrong thing or you did. You. You're a bad person. It just means that you got it. So you just need to approach it in the sense that, like, hey, the reason why it's really important to me that we talk about sexual health, and I recommend that you go get tested both people prior to having sex, because chances are that person may have herpes and not even know it. And that's when you. Because that's when you need to have that conversation is like, hey, I have herpes. It's really important to me that I don't get something else. You know, I wasn't this forthcoming. I wasn't this confident prior. And I want to keep it with just herpes. Like, not that I'm accusing you of having anything else, but you may not know. And let's. Let's both be on the same page and just throw it out there.

Yeah, I love that. And as you're talking, I wonder if you said the first number of times you have this conversation is going to come out with this sort of guilty, apologetic tone. And I wonder if someone could reduce that or kind of accelerate to the more matter of fact, assertive way by doing a roleplay with a friend where you go through it again and again and again and your friend gives you feedback on. Yeah, okay, that sounded. That wasn't very good. Let's try again. You know, like, do it again. Do it until at least you can be very, very Matter of fact, because I think that's often the problem when we're talking about something that's. There's shame involved. It's okay. Yeah, there's, quote, high stakes in this dating experience. But even more so, it's just literal lack of the finding the words, lack of saying it again and again and again to where. So if you said it over the course of couple conversations with your friend, if you said it 10, 15 times, then now you have a much stronger foundation and maybe you've cleared a lot of that tone, which, yeah, it's very unfortunate because that tone kind of further reinforces that negative perception of yourself or that stigma and that even, you know, sets the frame and tone of the conversation. It's going to impact and the other person, because probably still in this day, I think most people are generally ignorant about herpes. And so if your tone is very. If your tone is very matter of fact and informant, like, you know a lot, you know, that might actually awaken a very interesting conversation because the person's like, wow, okay, what does that mean? And then you tell them, and then they learn a lot. And it's. It could be a very different experience. All because of the voice tone in which you share it.

And yeah, use it as an education because again, most people are not educated in herpes other than like, ew, that thing. They don't know what it is. And oral herpes, a cold sore. I talk to people all the time. Cold sores are herpes. Cold sores are an std. It's the same thing. So people don't realize that. Oh, that little blister they get on their lip when they're stressed out. Yeah, that's herpes. And you can also transmit that to your partner sexually. You may not have gotten it sexually. You may have gotten it from Aunt Ina who kissed you as a baby, but you can. You can give that to your partner sexually, so you have it, too. So that's also a really important question you bring up. Maybe not be as forceful as I just was, but ask them, like, do you. Do you ever get cold sores? Like, do you know what that is? And again, two out of three people have it. So they would say, yeah, you know what? I do. But I haven't had them in forever. Yeah, I used to get them as a kid, but, gosh, I don't get them anymore. Great, you have herpes, too.

So did Aunt Ina ever kiss you? Come on, tell me the truth.

Right, right. You know? Yeah. And people don't realize that you don't realize that there's a good herpes and a bad herpes. No, there's not good or bad. It's just herpes. And it's just a matter of where you came into contact with it.

Yeah, well, one thing I love about what you're doing, it's like it's your own journey. And then you're also using that to educate and bring community together and all learn and grow together with LifeWith Herpes.com but you're talking about not using herpes as an excuse to not do the things you want in your life. And it's really taking it even a step further. And then I can hear in the way that you talk about it that herpes in your life became a springboard to like, to actually benefited your life. Like, you grew in so many ways as a result of that experience, 100%. And I feel like there's that next level. And I understand it's going to be a process to get to that. You're not going to have that insight on day one of finding out. Right. But over time, being like, wow, this is actually as opposed to something, you know, the bad virus that happened to me that ruined my life is, this is something that came into my life that shifted, you know, and forced me to grow and have more assertive conversations and raise my self esteem and, and pursue my goals and not use excuses like herpes or anything else. And so it can really be like anything that, that seems painful or, quote, bad or wrong when it, when it happens at first in our lives, it can really be something that ends up being a powerful driving force that changes our life for the better. And I. It's very apparent in your story, 100%.

On Monday, I was in my support group. I was just talking. One of the women was talking and she was like, I was a slut. And she's like, say it or not, whether it's wrong or right. Like, she's like, I slept with everybody and I got herpes. And I realized that once I got herpes, it made me realize that I really didn't want to be sleeping with everybody. I just was doing it because I thought that was how I got the attention or that was how I found love or that was my way of feeling needed. And she realized, she's like, I just realized that I was doing it for the wrong reasons. And getting herpes has now made me, you know, like you said, change my lifestyle. Not that sleeping with whoever you like. If you want to use the. I really hate using the word slut and all that, but. But we all know the definition of it, right? And so not that that's wrong. I'm not saying that's wrong. It's if it's wrong, if you're doing it for the wrong reasons, if you are. When she boiled it down, she realized, I didn't really want to be sleeping with these people. I didn't want to be putting my body out there to these people. I was just doing it because that's how I got love.

Yeah.

And so having herpes really forces you. It brings it to the front of your plate as like, what is going on in my life right now and why do I need to change it? Whatever it is, what is happening, and this is forcing me to figure it out and what I need to change.

Yeah, I love it. A catalyst for growth.

Yeah.

Well, this has been just one of the most informative interviews we've ever had on the show. I think part of that is because you are so knowledgeable in this topic, and not just, as you mentioned, the scientists who studied in a lab forever, but in a very real world, practical, instantly accessible way with so many examples and stories. So I think you're just a fantastic teacher and a great messenger just to spread this awareness to the world. So thank you so much. And for people who want to listen to your shows or find out more about you, what's the best way for someone who's intrigued to learn more or be able to share with a friend or anything like that?

The best way is just to go to lifewithherpes.com I do have a podcast and I do have a YouTube show. It just depends on what you're. If you prefer watching or listening, it's the same information. And I do have. The way I've designed LifeWith Herpes.com is to make it a repository of information. So to make it your herpes information, don't turn to Google. It gets really scary on Google. There's, like, really scary pictures on there. Don't do that. But go to life with herpes. I do have a. I call it the Secret Society, and it is an online community of people living with herpes, people from all over the world. I have hundreds of people in there. And it is truly the best way to get you from your diagnosis of oh, my, like, omg, to okay, I got this like, I am. I got, like, not I got it like I got herpes, but, like, I got it like, I got this under control. And, you know, I wish I had it when I was diagnosed, I wouldn't have probably stayed in a relationship for two years that I didn't need. I probably would have moved on a lot faster. And that's why I created this is it's just your opportunity to learn, meet with other people and move through it. Like get over herpes. Who cares? Who cares that you have herpes? But one of the things I want to say about herpes that is very important that we all know is if you have herpes, your life is not over. Trust me. You can get married, you can have children, you can, you can have the job of your dreams. Like, so what? You get an outbreak here and there. It's not a big deal. If you don't have herpes and you're worried about maybe catching it or the person you like has herpes or someone is approaching you that like, you know, saying, I have herpes, let's date. I also want you to know that you've already come in contact with the virus. At some point in your life, it is too common for you not to. You've picked up someone else's beer, you shared a cigarette, you've kissed someone, you've slept with somebody. It's just too common for you not to. So don't say no to this person because you're scared of it. Get the information, study it and decide what works for your life.

I love that. And you know, and yes, I mean, obviously anyone listening who is having experience with herpes, I cannot think of a better place to go than your community. I mean, given that hearing you talk and you are going to be setting the tone of the culture of that community, being the creator of it and leader of it. Yeah. You're modeling a way of being with it. That is where it's a very healthy response to it. So I think that's a no brainer. So if anyone is struggling with this or feeling alone with this or any stage of it, I cannot speak highly enough about getting around people who have a healthy mindset around something and letting that mindset transmit to you over time. So again, thank you so much, Alexandra for joining us for the interview and for the work that you're doing in the world.

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. And I obviously love talking about herpes, so it's great.

That brings us to the end of the interview and your action step. Time for action, action, action. Your action step for today is to talk about sex. Talk about sex like today or tomorrow or this week. And you know, if you're in a relationship or dating someone right now. Great. You have tons of different ways you can bring it up. Maybe conversations you didn't have, conversations you need to have. There's many opportunities there. But even if you're not dating someone, just talk about sex with a friend and talk about it in maybe a more in depth way. Maybe in a more informed way. Maybe share a little bit of what you learned from this episode or ask them some questions or share about your experience and just go deeper, go into that topic which can be so private, so veiled, and as a result we can feel a lot of shame, uncertainty, not knowing what's going on and this sense of, well, we can't, you know, hesitancy to talk about it. So let's shift this. So take what you're learning here and become more outspoken, more curious and bring this into your dating life and beyond. Awesome. Thanks for being with me today and until we speak again, may have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome. Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free. Blogs, ebooks and training videos were to linked related to overcoming Shyness and increasing confidence. Go to social confidencecenter.com.