How To Create An Extraordinary Dating Life with Jacob Sokol

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence first in myself second, and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome. Today's episode of the show. Today we have a long one. Oh, yes. I was doing an interview and I let it go, just let it go longer than I normally do because it was so good. And it just kept on getting better. And I'm so glad we did because in the last 10 minutes of it, we got into some really profound stuff. He said one statement that is still staying with me days after I heard him say it. And there's just so many gems sprinkled in this interview that I didn't want to cut anything out. So you're going to have access to the whole thing here. And it's all about dating and relationships, how to approach dating from a place of boldness and authenticity and vulnerability. All the stuff that we talk about here in this show of breaking out of social anxiety and shame and I'm not enough and people won't like me into being freely yourself, comfortable in your own skin, no matter who you're around, how to be powerful, how to be your cup is full inside. You feel good about who you are, and therefore you're able to bring positive energy, love and connection to and purpose out into the world. That's a lot of what we talk about here. This is about how to do that in dating. And it's not abstract and theoretical. It is lived experience of exactly how to do it and then really breaking it down to some practical, tangible things that you can do to really prep yourself to do it. And it goes way beyond tip number one. Say this tip number two, stand like that. It's much more like, how do you become the kind of person who shows up this confidently and powerful in your dating life? So even if you're not dating, even if you're in a relationship, listen to this interview. Even if it doesn't matter if you're heterosexual, homosexual, man or woman, whatever your preferences are, whatever your connections are, this is of tremendous value for any Kind of connection, any kind of relationship. And of course, if you're actively dating, too, this will be extremely beneficial for.

For you.

So, without further ado, let's get into my interview now. My guest today is someone I am extremely excited to have on the show. His name is Jacob Sokol. And Jacob is someone that I've admired for many years and actually looked up to him before I met him. And truth be told, the first time I heard about him and then saw his picture online felt a stab of inferiority. This guy's better than me, but that was really coming from seeing how he was showing up. So Jacob is a coach and a teacher. He helps people in all areas of life to break free to the next level, to really become the more ultimately the most confident, unstoppable version of themselves, much like what I'm here to help all of us do. And he's been doing that for many years in a variety of contexts, in personal life, in people's relationships and. And in their career, their mission in the business world. So really helping people get to that next level. And the reason I think I felt that stab of inferiority was the level of boldness and authenticity with which he expressed himself was something that I think at the time that I first saw him, I still aspired to do. There were still ways that I was holding myself back, and I saw that he wasn't. And I'm in a mastermind group with Jacob, and we were talking recently, and he was sharing more about his experience in dating. And as soon as he started talking, the first thought that went through my mind is, oh, my God, we need to be having this conversation, but recorded where everyone who listens to my show can hear it, because there was so much of that authenticity, that boldness that you bring, as you do in all areas of life, to dating. And. And so I'm so excited to dive in to that topic with you today and to have you on the show. So welcome, Jacob.

Dude, thank you for such a beautifully articulated introduction. And I so appreciate who you've been in my life and getting to witness how you show up for your family, for your clients, for your mission, for the work that you feel so deeply moved to do. And I see you. Do I see you waking up at 4 in the morning? Well, not see you, but you text me at 4 in the morning, your time sometimes. And I'm like, man, this guy is on fire. Dedicated to living his mission. So the inspiration works both ways. And I super appreciate having you in my life.

Beautiful, man. Thank You. Yes. That's prime texting time right there. 4am on the toilet, right when the day is starting, away from the kids. That's the prime time. That's when I handle all my personal texts in the morning, just in case anyone, everyone's wondering what's happening. But let's dive right into. There's so many different things we could talk about. We could talk about confidence in business and in all areas of life, but dating, let's really drill into that because it's an area that I think it's one of the hardest places for people to be confident, bold, authentic. And yet it's the most important, I think, to develop that. Whether it's to enjoy the experience more or to create a lasting relationship, we want to be coming to it from a place of authenticity and boldness. So just so people get a sense of where you're at, maybe you can talk a little bit about what your dating life currently is.

Sure. So to create a little bit of context, I have been fascinated by women and dating and relationships my entire life, since 13 or something like that, maybe a little bit younger. And as I grew up and eventually developed a career in personal development, I've gone on to do probably 100 plus interviews in my career and I've never done one about dating. Even though I've spent so much time and emotion and just been so invested in how do I create the most amazing version of either a relationship or dating. How do I really get this thing to the place that I want it? And so I'm excited and a bit nervous to jump in and see what comes out today and to create a little bit of context for your answer as to where I am right now, since I can remember at a very young age, maybe like 12 years old, I had this feeling like when I find the right woman, life will finally be what it's capable of being. There is this sense of like there is someone out there who, when I find, is going to complete me and I will feel whole and enough and life will just finally be, ah, that's amazing. And I didn't find that person. And I, as I grew up, I was pretty shy, especially in high school. I was 5 foot 3 until maybe 11th grade and very introverted and didn't feel like I fit in and just kind of didn't feel confident. And as I grew up, eventually I kind of. I remember one day I was probably 20 years old and I googled how do you pick up women at the mall? And this was my introduction to personal development. Sure, I was reading about some kind of, like, dating tricks or pickup lines, but when I actually got a little bit deeper into the material, I realized, oh, what these guys are saying is that you can. The way that you attract the best mate for you is becoming the best version of yourself. And there's this whole thing called inner game. And so I have decided to dedicate my life to personal development and living in integrity with my truth and my values and living a meaningful life. And I'll share some of. Well, I'll skip some of the backstory that I think we've shared in a previous podcast, but essentially to bring you up to date with where I am right now. I had finally created the relationship of my dreams. Me and my ex were together for four years, and I just so deeply admire and appreciate who she is and what she does. And I never believed in love at first sight, but the moment that I looked into her eyes, there was this feeling of like, I know you, even though I don't know you. And it was the closest thing that I can imagine to love at first sight. And we created this epic relationship. We met, and then three months later, immediately both gave up our apartments and traveled the world for a year and a half, living in Bali and Thailand and Colombia and Japan and just this wild adventure. And we had a really great relationship. And there was at some point about four years in or a little bit before that, just this deeper kind of, well, we've been together four years. She's a bit older than you. She'd like to get married and have kids. And I didn't feel that same authentic desire. And I was trying to. I loved her so much that I wanted it for her. So I would like. I was like, okay, maybe I can make this work so that I can make her happy. And I just realized that's not the place to create a life that's true to yourself from. We ended up splitting up, and that was about a year and a half ago. I don't know when this will air, but that was about a year and a half ago from the time we recorded this. That brings us to current day and what dating is like right now. Before I jump into that, let me just check in with you. Anything you want me to clarify there or any particular direction you want me to go at this point?

No, I definitely want to hear more. I will just reflect back that I love, again, your commitment to be you and to. And that's something we talk a lot about on this show, is the tendency of niceness and People pleasing and basically moving further away from ourselves to please others, to keep the peace, to do the right thing, which means not upsetting others. And so even in this story, I hear that your the through line is like, I'm going to do what's true for me, even though it's uncomfortable, even though it's hard. And so I think that's awesome. And that's how you show up, you know, to the relationship and dating, but also life.

Yeah, thank you, man. I appreciate that. And I will say it was the hardest decision of my life and I was really thinking about like, and like trying to understand like what's my head talking in my heart and my gut and like what's like my authentic truth versus like my childhood trauma and wounding. Because my parents got divorced when I was 5 and definitely didn't have a healthy primary role model relationship between my parents. That wasn't something that I think served me very well kind of to model seeing how they did relationship. And okay, so current day. Okay, so then I enter into this new world of fucking dating apps and bumble and like I'm like, what the hell is this world that we now live in? Which is called like dating.

And you're in, you're in New York.

City, which is like, I'm in New York City hub.

It's at the center of the hive, the beehive of human activity.

So it's crazy. I'm like, I can't believe that like, you know, dating as a dude who, you know, had to figure out how to get dates at some point. It kind of felt back in the day like, like approaching a woman was like an extreme sport in a way.

Right?

You had to like work up confidence and talk yourself into it. And I'm going to face my fear and I'm going to go for it. And you had to get excited about the rejection so that you're like, yes, that only makes me stronger so I can keep doing this. And suddenly all that is just removed and it's just like a swipe of the finger and this is the world now that I'm entering into. And I'm like, oh my God, this is crazy. And I was clear also that let me say I believe in the power of relationships. And you know, I think that the best for me and I don't say this is true for me and I think this is true for the majority of people. I think the best possible life that you can create comes inside of the right kind of partnership. And the relationships become a vehicle for a level of healing and growth and contribution that you can make on this planet that is otherwise unavailable to you outside of that container of the right relationship. So when I went back into the dating scene, sure, I live in New York and there's, you know, I can get a date every day if I want now through this freaking app thing. This is crazy. And at the same time, I'm clear, like, I'm essentially screening and looking for my soulmate, like, the person who I'm going to be able to create the most magnificent life together with. And that was the frame that I entered into dating with. And dating really is interviewing. You're interviewing for do I want to spend the rest of my life with this person? And I know sometimes we can get so wrapped up in our own insecurities that it's like we think of it like we're the one being interviewed. And that's, I mean, that's fair. We're both getting to know each other. But I just started to realize, like, wow, I walked away from this relationship that was so amazing. And it was this visceral, embodied understanding of like, I don't need anything, I don't need to jump into anything in order to be okay. And it was the first time in my life that I ever actually experienced this sense of like, I'm okay even if I am not in a relationship. And I'm not seeking to, like, get into a relationship in order to be okay, but like, I feel whole and complete and fulfilled as I am, even though I was partially heartbroken, but nonetheless, that was a new experience for me. So I feel like there's like so much that I want to share around dating. And at the same time, I want to check in with you and see if there's a particular place that you want to nudge the combo.

Yeah, well, we're going to keep letting it fly because there's so much good stuff in here. But I want to ask one follow up question that I think to help bridge the gap because there's so many. First of all, anyone listening, listen to it again. Take notes. I want you to really be studying this conversation, particularly from a lens of modeling. Whether you're a woman or a man, heterosexual or homosexual, doesn't matter, because it's about the inner mindset and the attitude because you said some really powerful stuff there that I want to highlight. One is that dating in a way is like interviewing. But we can think I'm interviewing that person or they're interviewing me and you're highlighting. That's kind of both. But I think when we're coming to it from a lower power position or a well behind that is like the desperation. Like, I need something, I need this date to go well because I need a relationship and I need a relationship to feel whole. And when that's the backdrop, then we get on the date and it's like an interview where we're trying our best to land the job and what we lose sight of is, well, do I even want this job? Do I even want to be with this? Do I even like this person? And so I think you're coming to it from a place of I don't need anything right now. Let me see what's here now. What would you say for people? Because I think there's a lot of people that are like, oh yeah, that's the best way to approach it. But I do feel like I need something and I'm lonely. And so what would you. Was there anything you consciously did to come to that place? Probably millions of things that you've done over the years. But anything that you can pointer that you can have a tip for people to really move into that place. Starting place.

I love it. Yeah. So there's things that oftentimes we are like unconsciously seeking out from people or from the world or in this case from a potential romantic partner. And those things can be, you know, I'm looking for validation or I'm looking to have you increase my self worth or I'm looking for you to make my life better in some way. Or I'm looking for you to make me me feel better emotionally in some way and in order to really show up in a way which you don't need anything. And I want to be clear, like it's not that you need to be some like stoic, like disconnected person. Like is like I have no needs. I'm like that. That's not at all what I'm talking about here. But it's like where you are taking care of your own needs and conscious of them instead of unconsciously putting them on somebody else. Ye. So like me and you were geeking out when we were in my crib and I kind of shared this major insight that I had over the last year around neediness. And one of the things that I realized was so I started dating a woman shortly after me and my ex broke up. And let's say we had plans on a Saturday and it was Thursday at noon and Thursday at noon is kind of the time that I start to get tired. Like I've Done my first huge workload for the day, and I've eaten my lunch and now I had a little bit of chocolate. And I'm kind of like. I'm kind of of like, you know, going downhill energetically wise. And I went and I reached for my phone to text this woman because I, like, wanted to see her or something, even though I already had plans with her on Saturday. And in that moment, before I sent the text, I somehow got wise to what was happening, which was, I don't feel great right now, and I'm looking for you to make me feel better. So I'm reaching out to you. I'm reaching out to you from a place of I don't feel great. Help me out here. This is going to make me feel better. And what I was then able to do instead of send the text was to realize what was happening and to learn to soothe myself instead of look for her to make me feel better. And the way that we do that is by just slowing down and taking a few deep breaths. And it's the last thing you're going to want to do in that moment. Like me. I'm like chocolate porn woman. I'm not. Let me be Mr. Zen in that moment.

Dopamine wave. Get away from those messy feelings underneath completely.

So it takes just the willingness to slow down and take a few breaths and ask myself, what am I feeling? And notice in your body what you're feeling. And for me, maybe it's anxiety, maybe it's sadness, maybe it's loneliness. And to just notice, what even sensations am I feeling? What emotions am I feeling? And then what need of mine isn't being met? Just ask yourself that question, what need of mine isn't being met? I would start by going over the basic physiological needs of your reptilian brain. And all that means is if there was a baby that was crying, and this baby obviously doesn't speak any English or any other language besides baby crying at this point. I've never had children, so this is all just theoretical for me. But my guess is you have to figure out what need of this baby isn't being met. You would start with the just most basic physiological needs, like, is it tired? Is it hungry, is it thirsty, does it need to use the bathroom? Is it hot or cold? And we need to, and we want to. If we really want to take ownership of our life and not look to other people to make us feel okay, we want to really learn this skill of regulating our nervous system and becoming grounded so that we can make Adult decisions or wise decisions. And so for me in that moment, when I went to text that girl, it was that I needed a nap, I needed some sleep, and I was unconsciously looking for her to make me feel better. And so I realized, oh, let me do the quick checklist. Boom. What I really need is sleep. Let me go take a nap. And I did. And that's been my journey over the last year. And it's been interesting as I've dated some women who I've been more intimidated by and who I felt like, wow, like, this is new to me to be dating a woman of this caliber that I perceive to be this amazing. And just to be clear, I think my ex is like the most amazing woman in the world. So let's just be clear about that. But in this other context, I'm like, whoa, this is scary. I would go inward and notice what am I feeling and how can I self soothe. And there's some other things that really help that I would like to talk about in regards to how do you show up without needing anything. But I think this is one of the most basic foundational skills for any situation in life, learning to regulate your nervous system and ground yourself. Let me pause because I know that could be an eight week training course on that one topic there.

I feel like you have that, you do have that, or at least have taught that to people. And I learned a lot from you in that regard. And I think it is really teaching on a very practical level how to take total ownership for yourself and your life and your emotions and your relationships. And I think that on some level people will point to that. It's good to do that and take care of yourself and all that. But this makes it very.

Applicable.

And what's crazy to think is how that one little cascade, that one little choice can cascade down this whole pathway where let's say you didn't check inward and you just texted her. Now what you're doing probably unconsciously is you're trying to like use her like a chess piece. You're trying to get her to do the right thing to make me feel a certain way. And you know, whether that's to make, you know, you want her to laugh at something you said or want her to want you back really bad or to feel excited about you or attracted you or something. And then this can play out where the next time we see them, we're trying, we just want people to do stuff. If I could just get you over here in this way, then I'd feel great. Inside. And I think that bringing awareness to that is extremely liberating because.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. And learning about codependence was one of the biggest lessons that I've had in relationship. And I don't know the kind of scientific definition of it, but my understanding is like, codependence is if you're not okay, I'm not okay. And so I'm unconsciously or consciously going to try to make you okay. And I feel like I'm doing that because I'm like a good person, which I am. But there's an unconscious motive that I have, which is that actually, truth be told, I don't feel okay if you're not okay. So by trying to make you okay, really what I'm doing is trying to make myself feel okay. And that was a huge, huge learning piece for me that I think has helped me better navigate dating where it's not my job to make somebody else feel okay. And actually, by trying to do that, I rob them of the developmental process where they learn to be okay. It's like if your child starts to cry every time that it ties its shoes, and you're like, well, that's no problem. I can help you tie your shoes. I know how to. And you go and you tie the child's shoes, the child is gonna stop crying because the shoes are tied. So the child's gonna feel better. You're gonna feel better because you're like, well, helpful. And so short term, everyone feels better. But if you keep doing that every time, then the child never learns to tie its shoes and you rob the child of its developmental capacity. So there is this kind of delayed gratification of, I'm going to support you enough so it doesn't feel like you're drowning, but it's not my, I can't swim for you. And if I keep pulling you every time you're in the water, you'll never learn the ability to swim. So I think that actually can even be traced back to this moment when I'm going to text the woman and it's like, hey, help me feel okay. Come on, you know you want to.

Yeah. And I'll say one more thing about this, and then I would love to hear more about other ways to show up from that place of non neediness. But. So you're talking about checking in. Okay, what's happening right now? What is it that I really want or what need is not being met? And then you scan through the physical needs. And I feel like this is something that I've Done more and more. And you mentioned feel in your body what's happening and that could be a physical thing, it could be an emotion that's occurring. And you talked about, I'm going to find this relationship, I'm going to find the one and I'm going to feel like, ah, complete and whole. And of course I had a similar idea. I think that's common in our, we're taught that in our culture this is how it's going to go. And I have met someone that is the perfect mate for me and we do have an extraordinary relationship. And yet, yet as I've become more and more self aware and developed my capacity to stop trying to grasp outside and then just say, okay, what's happening inside? I find there is a lot to feel in there. There's like big chunks of time of just like what am I feeling? I don't know, like an ache in my heart. Well, what is that?

Hmm.

Well, let me go into that and some of those I've shared with you and talked about those things and you've helped me get insight around them. But to me I'm just, I'm really starting to realize and I'm humbled by like how much there is to work with inside of us and how much we, you know, if we're not aware of that or we don't want to go there and we just want to get the fix outside of ourselves, we're not going to get that. Even when you get into the greatest relationship, there's still so much stuff to work through, to feel, to be a human, that we might as well get started now. Might as well get started when we're dating or wherever we're at because there's no external quick fix. I think that just removes that part of the human experience.

Yeah, and your commitment to that is super inspiring. You shared with me about how you do that with your kids and create a space for that and with your wife and just hanging out with you and throwing it up and masterminding with you and seeing you do that, it's super inspiring. And, and so we'll talk more about. For me, I was thinking a little bit before the interview, okay, so what are the main three things that I can give people to help them not feel needy when really going and putting themselves out there and being in these vulnerable, somewhat exciting, somewhat nerve wracking places. And if we don't develop this ability to go inward like you were saying, then what we do is we unconsciously make it somebody else's responsibility to make us feel okay to soothe our nervous system or our emotions because we're disconnected from it. And so then we look externally for this person to make us feel better or an external event like when that thing happens, then I'll finally be able to feel okay. So then we have some attachment or some neediness to something external happening. And here you can. So the first thing is one, learning to regulate your nervous system. And what you can do for that is just develop a meditation practice. And I know that that can sound like at this point it's not so esoteric and out there, but even just two minutes a day, every day, I strongly suggest making it a non negotiable commitment. I've been doing it nine years now daily and at some point nine years ago asked myself what's the number one thing I could do for the next 30 days that would have the biggest benefit on my life. And the answer was meditation. 30 days was up and haven't stopped since. And it's totally changed my life. There's two apps that I hear are good if you want some guidance with that. So headspace is one of them and I think that becomes paid. And then there's a free one that's Insight Timer. And just every morning, first thing before you connect to email or social media or anything like that, just taking a few minutes. For me, I do a 15 minute daily practice, but you can do a two minute daily practice and taking that time to train yourself to be able to go inward and regulate and ground yourself. Super high leverage. So starting there and then let's say you're actually out on a date and you are feeling nervous and you are across from someone. The first thing to help with neediness would be again to learn to self soothe or regulate your nervous system. The second thing is just authenticity and just keeping it real. And my frame on this is like, I would rather you know who I am now than wait three months of us dating and then you find out who I am and then you're like, oh, I don't like that. And then it was like a waste of three months. It was like, why didn't we just like get to this from the beginning? So I remember like when me and my ex kind of, I think we went on our first date and I was super nervous. I was super into her and I was super nervous and I was so in my head and I was trying to find like we went to this art exhibit and it wasn't great. And then I was like, okay, like where do we go now? Do we go to a bar? Like, what do we do? And I was just overthinking it. I was so in my head. And we finally got to some bar and I sat down from her, and I'm like, listen, I gotta tell you something. If you really knew me, you'd know that I am, like, super in my head right now. And I was so excited to see you because you're awesome and I feel really connected to you, and I think there could be something really great here. And at the same time, right now, I just feel so out of it. And I paused, like, and she, in response, said to me, well, if you really knew me, you'd know I'm so happy to hear that. I'm like, what? What you mean you happy to hear that I'm, like, suffering right now? And she's like, well, I've had you since you're like, this life coach dude. Like, I've had you, like, on a pedestal this whole time. And it's, like, made it kind of hard to really connect with you on a human level. And I was like, immediately just dropped right into my body. I was like, well, if you really knew me, you'd know I just got aroused right now. That's amazing. Now, I'm not saying that any listening should go do that contextually. It felt appropriate and right. And the rest is history. But that's a tool that everyone listening can use, which is this tool of if you really knew me, you'd know. And you can call it a game. You can say, hey, let's play this game called if youf really Knew Me, you'd know. And just finish the sentence. And this is one of the best tools you can use in any relationship, whether it's with someone you're dating, whether it's with a parent that you're having some conflict with or that you feel disconnected from, whether it's with a friend or a coworker. If you really knew me, you'd know. And it paves the way and kind of provides an easier access point for a much deeper, much more authentic, real connection. So that's the second thing is leaning into authenticity. Because if I didn't bring that up, then I would secretly be hiding this thing. And it so helped me get present and not need anything because I was just honest about where I was.

Yeah, I love that. And there's so many things, but just that phrase can be so helpful because it's almost like once you start to say it, there you go. Now something more real is going to come Out. And what a gift to just kind of throw yourself over the edge with that one. But then what's so good about it is you share and then. And that's it. You just kind of sit there afterwards. And I feel like normally we're so on guard against being vulnerable that we try to. Don't want it to show at all. And then if it does slip, we fill it. We fill the space. We try to control the other person's reaction to it.

Yeah. Or we change the subject and we're like, but anyway, what's happening in your day?

Yeah. Which is like, okay, I don't really want to hear what you're going to say because I feel vulnerable and exposed and bleh. And this. There's a level of courage here of here I am. And what it reminds me of is the idea that we can strive to be liked or we can strive to be known or invite being known by people. And the liking is, well, I don't want to, ah. I don't want to reveal that because that's not going to look very appealing to her or to him. And then the being known is what you were describing when you said, well, I'd rather they know me now before we begin or go further than later. So let's do it. Here is me, here is me now. And I know, I know there are people listening that could say, yeah, but that works for you.

But it won't work for me.

If I were to reveal that I was anxious, that is fundamentally unattractive. It shows I'm not. I don't have myself put together. And that will turn women off. I think men can have this idea especially. It's like, look, I'm supposed to be this confident alpha male kind of guy, and now I'm going to reveal that I'm nervous or feel anxious with a woman. That is not going to go well. And maybe they have evidence for it, maybe they don't. What would you say? I mean, is there some truth in that? Is it possible that revealing anxiety in a certain way would not be received well? Or is it just something we need to face and see what happens?

Yeah, there is a potentiality that the person who you share it with doesn't have the capacity to hold space for someone. And for me, I don't want to be in a relationship with that type of person. So again, I'm happier to say, hey, I'm anxious and see her response because. Because the woman in my dreams is the type of woman who is going to be compassionate and Empathetic, not say, hey, loser, what's up with the anxiety? And at this point, I can kind of screen for that a little bit ahead of time. But back in the day, I probably wouldn't have been able to, and it still would have been worth it just to say that, just to take that risk. So I do want to say there's two things here. I do want to talk about that moment that you brought up, Aziz, which is like, after you say, if you really knew me and you say your thing, then, like, just pause into the silence. So what do you do then? And this is where the first thing that we mentioned of learning to regulate your nervous system comes in, because you go inward into your. Into your breath. So I say something, and then. And I am 50% focused on my breath, breath and 50% focused on her. And in fact, I find a lot of enjoyment with dating in the awkward silence. It's not awkward silence. And I know, as some people who are listening who probably struggle with awkward silence. And that can be such a good place, such a fun place when you're connected to your breath and when you can really just slow down and sink into the moment instead of feeling like you need to fill it up with fluffer conversation because it's kind of uncomfortable. So in that moment, I would encourage people to slow down and just get into their breathing a bit. And then the other thing around the neediness conversation, and just like creating the best life conversation. So we spoke about, one, regulating your nervous system and doing that through breathing or meditation. Two, we spoke about authenticity and being willing to be real and really share your experience. And three, would be to. And this is probably. Well, it's all deep work, but this might be the most deep, is to work on identifying your shame and healing it. And so your shame are. The difference between guilt and shame is that shame is. Guilt is I did something wrong. Shame is I am something wrong. Guilt is about the behavior. Shame is about the person. So shame is the fundamental feeling and belief that you are flawed as a human being and unworthy of love, connection, and belonging. It's the feeling of I am not enough. And we all have shame. Every single person, whether it's Tony Robbins, whether it's some world leader. Like, everybody has shame in some capacity, in some way. It differs. It's not all the same shame. And if you want to know where your shame is, look at what your secrets are. Are the things that you most want to keep secret, are the things that you have the most shame around. And I have found Relationships to be the best, specifically, like a deep partner, romantic relationship, to just be the best grounds for healing shame. In other words, you get to love the parts of your partner that feel unlovable to them, and you model for them that those parts are actually lovable, and you help raise those. The child within them that never was able to develop into that had a wound around that specific place, and you get to kind of help raise and parent that part of them into full maturity and development, where they're able to then provide that love for that part of themselves without even needing you there. And that's. Now we're talking about relationships instead of dating. So you might say, well, if I'm not in a relationship, how do I do that? For me, I did it by a bunch of different ways. But you can see a therapist, you can work with a coach. You can create a men's group, which is. Or for women listening, you can create a women's group or just a mastermind group. And the way that you eradicate shame, the way that you heal shame, is you have to speak it. And it's going to be the thing that you least want to speak. And it needs to be met with empathy, which is, you are not wrong for that. And I can understand how you might be feeling that. And that's a really hard thing to feel, and that's totally normal and understandable. And that's probably the deepest work that any human being can do, is to find the parts of them that they have shame around and to. And to spot them, address them in relationship, not just romantic relationship, but any kind of relationship. And when you do that, then when you're out on the date, you don't have this thing of, like, well, if you found out this thing about me, then I'd be screwed. Or then you'd know I wasn't lovable. The more that you work on healing your shame, the more that you feel deserving of love. And so you don't unconsciously do things to keep people from getting. Getting to know you and love you because you're afraid that if you were to open up in that way, they would see this thing that makes you a monster or horrible human being. And so you actually unconsciously then wouldn't let them in to love you. That was a lot of words. Did that make sense? Aziz?

Dude, I am right there with you. I'm nodding my head and I am yes. This is so. There's so much out there that's like, quick tips or just show up this way or just act this way. And what you're describing though, is not the quick fix, it's the fucking work. But if you do the work that's. I mean, profound liberation requires work and effort and facing what we're uncomfortable or scared of in any area of life, whether it's physical relationships, emotional career. So whenever someone starts talking about it in that context, I start to be all ears because I know that they're actually describing a true path and not just something that sounds what we want to hear. And I think it's. You said it so well. There's not much that I really need to add to it that that is fundamentally the path to much deeper self acceptance and self love. And, and we all have heard the cliches of like, well, you can't really be in a relationship or can't really be loved until you love yourself kind of thing. And that's pointing to this. But then it doesn't give people much clarity of what to do. Or they're like, oh, I guess I should say I love myself. I love myself in the mirror a lot. And that's a useful tool. But if that's not combined with going to the unlovable stuff and, and healing that, and part of that's going to be our own inner work of loving the unlovable in us. But it also involves other people and finding people we trust. And bit by bit, going there and revealing the thing that you did, the feelings that you have, the behaviors that you do that you don't think anyone should know about, just bit by bit in a safe place where you're loved, that is profoundly healing. And that was a turning point for me to go from a pattern of chronically dating women for between two weeks and two months and then ending it. Dating and ending, dating and ending, dating and ending. And that was because. Exactly what you're describing. If she knew the real me, she'd know that I was unlovable. I was not aware of that. I was unconscious of that. But that's exactly what was playing out until I healed that deeper shift shame. And I should say it's not past tense, right? It's healing. Like you heal enough of it to then be able to get into a relationship for me. And then there's more. There's all kinds of layers. And in fact, that's one of the beautiful gifts of that deep relationship where both people are committed to growing and the relationship is a vehicle, as you were saying earlier, to be. To become the most most powerful version of you. That's having the Biggest impact on the world. Because then when something comes up, you know, some of the. One of the saddest things in a relationship is when people almost deepen the shame in their partner because of their own unwillingness to go there, to hold space, to face their own demons inside. But when you have two people that are coming together with like, oh, yeah, something's coming up for you, what is it? What's going on on? And then you can love that in them. Man, what a gift that is for everyone.

Dude, it's amazing. And you don't need to wait to be in a relationship to do that. This is a way that you get to be in the world. And when you see someone who is struggling with something, one of the best gifts you can give them is just to say, hey, that's normal. Like, yeah, I see you're struggling with that thing or you feel insecure about that. That's totally normal and I love it. So there is. I wanted to backtrack and just talk about for a moment, like, how do you view relationships? Like, what's your view to the listener, what's your view of what a relationship is and what do you want out of a relationship? Most people, I think, view relationships as a place for comfort and for happiness, and they can definitely be those things. It can be an amazing kind of safe place to feel good about yourself. But I think it's dangerous to prioritize comfort and even to prioritize happiness. And for me, what I'm looking for is relationships as a vehicle for healing and growth and contribution. And. And when you have that frame when you're out dating, is this a person who is committed to their growth? Is this a person who's committed to healing? And not in a judgmental way of like, are you doing it or are you not? But just getting to know someone with some curiosity, it really gives you some of your power back. Because now it's not like, well, I'll settle for anything that makes me feel good. It's no, like, here's the life that I'm inspired to live. And I'm looking for a person who sees that and gets that and is up for co creating that together. And there's something. So we spoke about neediness a bit and we spoke about relationships a bit. One thing we haven't spoken about is just like the overall kind of, I think, frame for. Well, we did speak about viewing it as like an interview for your life partner, but. But for me, one thing that me and you have spoken about privately is ease. Is like, so I suggest everyone goes on a ton of dates. And it's kind of like if you are going for a job interview and you don't only want to just have practice, you don't only want to go for the Google interview, like the big exciting one, you want to get a practice with a bunch. And so for me, I love just meeting someone for 45 minutes for a tea, not an alcohol beverage, or like a long movie and dinner night that we're going to spend hours together, but just enough to feel someone's energy and get a sense of them and the frame that I take when I show up for a date, when I'm on my game, which is more often than not, I want to prioritize to show up in a good way, but I'm looking for one is I'm like, this woman is a queen. In my head, this woman is amazing. Immediately before I even meet her, I know she's amazing. And, and I make it a game to figure out why she's amazing. And so I'll ask questions to better understand why she's amazing. So what's something you like about yourself? Or if I were to ask your friends about you, what would they say that they most appreciate about you? Or I'll just start to notice when she's talking about her job and she's like, oh, I do this thing. And I'm like, wow, I could see how you'd be really good at that. I could see the way your brain works. And that's, that's amazing. I'm sure people really appreciate what you do there at work. I grew up in the complete opposite model of this. I don't want to talk shit about my parents, but I didn't see this thing. It was like a putting down thing of like, your mom does that thing, right? And so for me, that was the model that I operated in for a long time when I was dating, probably up until this last kind of rebirth of my dating self a year ago or a year and a half ago. And so this is totally new for me and it makes dating so much fun. It's like I'm not looking to put a woman down or anyone down at all. And I'm just looking at like, what is this woman is amazing. Let me make it a game to find out why and then let me help her remember how amazing she is because she's probably nervous out on a date. And she's out there kind of in this crazy land of am I going to find my partner? And I feel A bit vulnerable. And it's so nice to help someone remember, like, here's why you're amazing. And my frame is that it's not that a woman falls in love with you. It's that a woman falls in love with the way that she feels when she's with you. So how do you help her? How do you provide a space where she feels amazing? Now, I will say, if I were talking to my younger self here, there's a difference between flattery and kind of manipulative appreciation where I'm just saying something so that she'll approve of me. And that's not what I'm doing at all here. This is like, I don't need anything from you, and I want to make it a game to see how much love I can send your way in this interaction without needing anything at all. And help her fall more in love with herself. I think it's just such a fun way to go about this dating thing, other than, are you good enough for me or am I good enough for you? Or any of those things. Other. Other previous insecurities that I've definitely shown up with many times.

Yeah. What a beautiful way to approach it and to carry. To use it as a vehicle. Just another way to express who you are in the world. Right? And that is what you do. You are in the coaching world. You help people see their strengths and live them and find out what their zone of genius is and do it more. And you encourage people to take the risks and to believe in themselves. So obviously, that is. You like doing that. That's why you chose it as your life's work. And why not bring that into dating? And it's so refreshing to hear that because many people might have either learned this as I was taught it, specifically by people in the dating advice or pickup artist world when I was younger. Or maybe people learned this through observation, which is like, oh, yeah, the popular people are kind of condescending and rude and critical, but people still seem to, like, fawn over them and want their approval. And then that was what I generally observed. But then learning from the pickup artist world, it's like, yeah, you gotta kind of poke fun at this person and bust them and bring them down a little bit, and then they're gonna want you more. And it never sat well with me. So I. I can't do this. After a little while, it doesn't matter the effects. It just doesn't feel healthy or right. But this is, like, so the opposite and so good for people to hear, like, no this can work. This can work in the sense that you can have a better experience and the other person can have a better experience. And the problem is not whether you build someone up or break them down. The problem is if you're coming from that place of neediness or manipulation, then, yeah, flattery will be problematic.

Totally. And so to the person who's listening, who's like, wow, this is interesting, and I'm kind of open to trying it. And then they go on the next date and they still feel needy, call it out. Just be like, it's kind of crazy. I listened to this interview with these two nut jobs, and they were talking about this thing where, like, it's a. You know. You know, it's okay to be honest about what you're actually feeling and experiencing. And I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I'm going to give it a shot. And I can notice that in my experience right now, I feel a bit nervous talking to you. And fuck it. I'd actually just pause there and take a breath and just notice what happens. And I think that's a way that you can, because I totally relate to the dating thing. You got to put them down and all those things. And the other thing that has really worked well for me, Aziz, is just being really honest and asking the questions that I really want to know. So one of the things that I'll ask immediately is after 20 minutes or so, at some point, it's not timed, but at some point in is, why are you on this dating app? And I just want to hear her honest answer, like, oh, I'm looking for a relationship, or I'm looking to have fun, or I'm visiting from a place, and it helps me to gauge, oh, here's what she is looking for. And I can kind of feel like when it's not really authentic where she's given the, like, yeah, like, I don't know. Very surface answer, and it might dig in a little bit more, like, are you just saying that? Or, like, what's actually there? Tell me more about. You're just looking to maybe date someone or be honest, you'd love to get married and have kids. And then inevitably, she'll probably ask me the same thing back. And I'll be really honest, and I'll say, why I'm on the app is just like, I'm looking to create the most epic, amazing partnership that I've ever had and to find a partner to. To really grow and heal and develop and be of service to the world with. And I'm also looking to have amazing sex in the process. And hopefully both of those things get to happen through the same thing. But I'm not attached to that. And then I'll pause, which is vulnerable for me. And I feel nervous. And I'm just noticing the sensations in my body even as I say it now, it's like. And just relax into it. And you know, I didn't do that from the beginning, but at some point after just going on a ton of dates, I just realized, let me just not waste anyone's time. Let me not be a dick about it, but let me be honest. And it's shocking how refreshing that has been. It seems like how that has been received. I haven't had one woman who's felt like, offended or like, oh my God, this guy's a douche. The opposite. It was like, wow, thank you for being honest. And sometimes that led to certain things and other times it just wasn't a fit. And yeah, that was helpful for me.

I love that man. I appreciate you sharing that. And this is something that I'm not sure some people might be appreciating in this moment, but vulnerability is a must muscle, I think our capacity to be vulnerable. And so you're talking about sharing something with the close friend or a partner that you trust and know and in the privacy of your own home or something like that. And then once you can do that, then you're talking about being more authentic on dates and people maybe you don't know that well, you're just meeting this person. And then there's another level of vulnerability, which is you do, which is like, not now you're sharing here with us very openly about all these things in your experience that many people would not want to talk about, even just one on one with somebody. So there's this muscle that you've built of. I'm going to be able to express that. And I think that it's so healing. It's so helpful for all of us. And I want to acknowledge that and appreciate you for developing that in yourself.

Well, thank you for the reflection. I appreciate it. And yeah, it's definitely a muscle, which is why I encourage people to practice with everyone in their life and to go on a bunch of dates. And the thing specifically around dating, there's a skill that will make it two things I want to give to people here that have been really helpful for me. One is never feel obligated to stay in a situation that you don't want to be in. So so if you're on this date and it's 30 minutes in and you don't want to be there anymore, awesome. Go to the bathroom. Hey, can I. I'm going to go use the bathroom, come back and say, so what are your plans now? Or what are your plans moving forward? And granted, this is why I don't make big dinner plans and movie plans and I go for tea so that I can just gauge like, do I want to spend time with this person. But you doing something out of the obligation or, or because you think it's the nice thing to do doesn't actually serve either of you guys. And then the other thing that goes really well with that kind of permission slip is actually to view every person that you're dating or that you're on a date with as this is either the one or this is practice for the one. And when I mean the one, like this is the one I'm going to spend the rest of my life with or this is practice for the one that I'm going to spend the rest of my life with. So. So if you were going to go to the Olympics, you wouldn't wait until you got to the Olympics in order to start training like an Olympian. The thing that would get you to the Olympics was that you were training like an Olympian the whole time and then you got better and better and better and better and that led you to get there. So never view any date like it's a waste of your time or like, wow, I shouldn't have gone on that date. Or it's almost like every woman or man, depending on who you're dating has been sent by your future partner back in time as a way for you to practice different facets of relating to women or men. And this approach of like show up at your best every time makes it. You leave the date feeling dignified about yourself. Your self worth and self esteem goes up every time. When you treat this woman like, imagine the people who you respect most were in an auditorium or in a movie theater and watching you on a screen interacting with this woman. In what way would you want to act that you would be proud for them to see? And to be clear, it doesn't mean like, oh, I said everything perfectly and I didn't feel embarrassed or like, no, no, I mean like in integrity. With, with, with what would be courageous and dignified and honorable and, and make. How do you get this person who you're on a date with to leave feeling better about themselves as a result of this interaction and the Secret to that is that. Or the secret thing that that does is that then you end up feeling better about yourself after every interaction.

Absolutely. I love that. And I've seen that happen when people. People are dating someone and they want to exit. They've stayed plenty long or maybe even too long, and they want to end the dating experience or the relationship as it's forming, and their initial impulse is to ghost.

Oh, my God, I don't want to deal with it.

And it's the same thing. It's like, well, that kind of avoidance of discomfort and real direct conversation. And ultimately they're upset or their disappointment or that's the Olympian training you're talking about. Because with your future partner, even if you're never gonna break up with them, you're gonna disappoint them. You're gonna have to say something about what you want or don't want that they're gonna feel upset about or hurt by or disappointed by. So start lifting those weights now, dude.

I love it. Let me give people. Cause I'm like, I have so much to share here. Cause this has been one of the areas that I've spent the most amount of my time developing over the last year, and this is the first time I get to talk about. About it publicly. So I'm like, wait, wait, I got more to say. And I don't know the best way to frame it because it's all kind of the first time I'm saying it. But, like, this is good shit. So here's the other thing. In the ghosting situation. So, yeah, never ghost anyone. And what you can say if you are genuinely not interested in someone is, hey, I've really appreciated the time that we spent together. You are. And then insert nice, like, whatever you genuinely appreciate about them, insert it. Like you are. You're clearly smart and attractive and have a great sense of humor. And I get the sense that we are not a fit in the long run. And, like, thank you for the great conversation and, like, amazing time or whatever. You don't have to be real. Don't write some shit that's not true. Be real. But it's just genuine appreciation. And this goes back to the same thing from the date. Like, here's what I appreciate about you and here's my truth. And they can feel better about themselves exiting that text message or that conversation because you've bigged them up.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. Almost like a template of how to do it in a way that is once again affirming. And there's so much value in what you're sharing, not just the specific details. But I'm going to highlight it again. Like, I really want people to be listening to where you're coming from and who you are as you go about this dating experience. Because, you know, everything builds upon everything else you've said. So in order to be able to send that text authentically. And just this loving, no, thank you. If someone rewind way back when someone's feeling bad inside, like, I'm going to go on this date and I'm going to get this person to like me, and then they're gonna, you know, then I'm gonna feel better about myself. And then the person's not what you want. Or you're like, ah, this is. You're not treating them like a queen or viewing. You're just like, ah, this is just another person here. Oh, she's not into me. Or, oh, she's not hot enough for me. I don't know. And it's just this sort of, I'm gonna use this person. And this isn't bad. This is just unexamined. This is just when we don't do our inner work, when we don't slow down. And it doesn't make you a bad person. This isn't about shaming people for that. This is about saying, hey, there's a way to do this. This. That feels a hell of a lot better for you and for her and for everyone involved. And when you're coming to it from that place, though, then by the time you get done with a date or you stay on the date way too long, and then you build this little bubble of resentment that may be about that person or maybe about all the ones you've dated before. And now you can't send that text because you're like, my authentic experience. Do you want to know my authentic experience? Just terrible person. They just talked about themselves the whole time. They, you know, and we have this like. So everything builds on the thing before it. So those foundational pieces you were talking about, those three big things that people can do to heal inside, to become less needy and therefore needing to manipulate others, you know, do those things. That's what I would encourage people listening is don't make this about an intellectually interesting interview. I'm like, oh, Jacob, that guy's great. Yeah, he's doing great job, man. You know, like, take it in and do the work. This is for me and for all of us. Do the work to become that version of you that shows up and Wants to make the other person. How can I transmit as much love in this date as possible? How can I affirm this person as I say no to them and I don't want to see you again. These are high level ways to play this game and I love it. I love getting fired up hearing you about, talk about it.

This is great, man. And just to be transparent, I don't always get this stuff. It's not right or wrong, but there's times when I disconnect from this a little bit or there have been a few instances where I've left a date not feeling good about myself and I don't think the other person felt good. Not many, but there have been a few.

Well, you're not perfect. Well then just scratch everything I said. Said this is.

Yeah, fuck this guy, get him out of here. Yeah, I think I felt a little bit like, wait, hold my conscience was calling at me. When you're like, yeah, this, this guy Jacob is all about being loving. And I'm like, I am. When I'm in my king mode, when I've like slept enough and like eaten enough and like, you know, had my alone time and done meaningful work for the day and, and really that we're all generally operating on a spectrum of child to adult or like disgruntled inner kind of child to like king version of themselves or queen version of themself. And the conversation that I'm having today is from the king part of me. And that's who I aspire to show up as on a date. When I coach people, when I live my life, when I walk through the streets, when I'm thinking about my future and, and what I want to do in my lifetime. And I also have many moments during the day when I'm in that child portion of me. And one of the greatest skills that I've developed and continue to work on is being able to distinguish when am I where and to never make life decisions when I am in that child place or even just to not do anything other than help myself get back to king when I'm in that child place. And to be clear, that doesn't mean that you can't be a king and also feel nervous or anxious or sad or heartbroken. You can. It's just I'm going to be aware of that instead of unconsciously, instead of disconnect from it and put it onto other people or blame other people or have resentment. And so that's like our parents did the best job that they could to raise us and you know, off. Everyone here has wounds around that. And so much of our life is about developing the capacity to raise the parts of ourself that our parents never were able to. And not because they're bad people. Like they didn't have it inside of themselves because their parents didn't raise them in those ways. And so these wounds get passed down generationally. And what Aziz is really nudging you guys towards here, which I appreciate is like, don't just think about the template for not ghosting someone. Sure, you can use that. But there is a much deeper thing happening here which is you going inward and developing and healing and becoming the person that you're capable of being. And that's a deeper, long term process. I will hopefully. Hopefully. Well, fuck that. No, I will be committed to that process for the rest of my life. And I've been doing this. I spent five years in therapy and I've spent $100,000 on coaching, probably more, I don't know. And I've been in mastermind groups for the last seven years and I've developed a real close bunch of friends that I can have these kind of conversations with. And that happened over time. And I just want to nudge anyone who's listening to to take an important step in leaning into exploring what your shame might be. And what are the things that keep you awake at night or things that you don't feel good enough about and what is it that you really want in your life also? And then to be aware, where is that driven from? Is that driven from the child part of you or the king part of you? And what are the things that you do that help you stay connected to that king or queen adult part of you? You. And how do you prioritize your day and your life around making sure that those things happen? Whether that's exercise, meditation, getting enough sleep, eating a certain way, being in a group of a certain kind of people. Whatever those things are, I love it, man.

And that is what we always steer people towards at the end of the episodes of this show is towards an action step. And I love that action step. It's a call to not just a very specific activity, but to really. Either people are already on that path or to double down on that path of doing this work and finding that place where those people are and creating the environment that's really going to foster this best version of ourselves. But dude, it's been a pleasure. I've learned a ton little phrases you say, even just right there. The last thing was that a Lot of our life is about parenting ourselves in the places that our parents couldn't parent us. And just little gems like that where I'm like, damn, that is. That's right. That's true. So I love it, man. You're dropping, dropping gems all over the place for this inner interview. And thank you so much for taking the time to share with us and to talk about dating and relationships. I mean, I feel privileged that we get the goods, all the secrets that have been in there roiling around for years. So I'm sure you will be sharing with many more too, beyond us. And thank you so much for doing that, dude.

Thank you for having me and thank you for seeing the glimpse of this interview's potential. When you were on my couch here in New York and I, I was telling you that I don't know what, but it's something about dating came up and I was like, ah, I got this insight. And you're like, we should do an interview about that. So thank you for that. And to everyone who's listening, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me directly. I'd love to hear. What did you take away from this conversation? Like, what was the number one thing that stood out to you most? What's your biggest insight? And then so what's your biggest insight? And then what's one action that you'll take to use that insight? And you can email me jacobsensify.com, which is Jacob S E N S o p h y.com and if there is anything that you would like some support with and you have any questions for me, you can just email me as well. And I would love to see how I can help.

Yeah, I would definitely encourage people to take you up on that. I think if there's something in here that's resonating like, oh, man, or I want to be able to do that, or oh, I need guidance on how to get to that next level. Jacob is a master coach and being in a mastermind with him have personally benefited a ton from the ways he's helped mentor and teach and guide me. So I would highly recommend that. So you mentioned the email address and is it just sensofi.com if people want to find out more, get in your world, learn from you in that way?

Yeah, that would be the best place for people to head to. So S E N S o p h y.com and dude, thank you for. Thank you for taking the time to help me unpack this.

Of course.

Yo, yo. I hope you guys enjoyed that interview and as soon as me and Aziz finished, I had this nudge that I wanted to give a shout out to my love coach who I've worked with on and off at different times over the last two years. And her name is Annie Lala. And specifically I wanted to credit her for two ideas that I mentioned in this interview. One, that a woman doesn't fall in love with who you are, they fall in love with how they feel around you. And the second idea being that we want to treat each person that we're dating as either the one or practice for the one and to bring that Olympian mindset to every person that we're with and to show up and play full out no matter what situation we're in. So that said, thanks for listening guys, and again, I'd love to hear from you. Jacobensofy.com Peace.

So that brings us to the end of the interview. There are a dub. There's a dozen action steps you could take out of there or more. But I really like the idea of making some decisions about how you're going to start to build your capacity for vulnerability, how you're going to start to heal some of the shame in your life because there's so many little things and little tweaks you could do. But that's the big one. That's the one that's really going to transform your life the most. And so whether it's revealing something to a closer friend or maybe looking up like men's groups or women's groups in your area, or taking a risk to share something more vulnerable with someone close to you in your life. And it could have nothing to do with dating, but just building that muscle, that's the action step that I encourage you to take this week and then you know, forevermore as long as you live. Thank you so much for being with us today. Until we speak again, may have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let.

Them know and send them a link.

To shrinkforthyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to Social Confidence center dot com.