How To Master Small Talk Part-1-With-Dan-Chang

Coming to you from the center for Social Confidence in Portland, Oregon. Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy Helping men everywhere go from social anxiety to social domination with your host, Dr. Aziz.

Hey, welcome to today's episode of the show. Today we're gonna be getting into small talk mastery. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So if you want to check out more about the show, make sure you go to shrinkforthshyguy.com shrinkforthshyguy.com you can get show notes. You can get information about the interview. You can get a transcript. You can also check out ways to go deeper. You can get my ebook there five Steps to Unleash youh Inner Confidence, which will help you, as the title suggests, unleash your inner confidence. So go there for more. And I'm super excited because small talk, as you'll hear in the interview that I. That I do today with Dan, I think is a superpower. Now, most people, and you might be in this camp, kind of recoil at the idea of small talk. You're like, ugh, small talk. It sounds terrible. I don't like it. I don't want to do it. I just want to skip over it. And I get it. You know, I used to hate it, too, and I used to be pretty bad at it. That's probably one of the reasons why I didn't like it. But when you learn how to master it or at least get okay at it, so many things change. So much of our social anxiety and our discomfort of meeting people and talking to people we don't know that well is not that, you know, this is not a good fit or this person's gonna hate me or I'm no good. It's none of that stuff. We're just. It's a little uncomfortable because we don't know where to connect or how to do it. And we're terrified of that awkward silence or we're terrified of looking like we don't know what we're doing. So when you can learn just some of the basics about small talk, then doors open up like crazy. Doors open up in your social life. You can meet friends and friends of friends at a dinner party. In your business and work and career. I mean, you know, before a meeting, what is everyone doing? Small talk. When you chat with someone in the hall. Small talk. When you chat with your boss or a supervisor or a colleague or a potential client, you often will start the small talk. So the more smooth and comfortable you can be with that, and the more comfortable you can make them, the more doors open up in your career. And of course, I mean, it goes without saying that in dating and relationships, when you want to first connect with someone and you want to first start having a conversation, being able to do that, small talk is essential to make it go smoothly so you can get into a deeper conversation. And no one is more skilled that I know of helping teach people how to take small talk and make it meaningful, be able to create connections. And so I'm super excited to have Dan in interview today. So without further ado, let's get into our expert interview.

Expert interview.

My guest expert today is Dan Chang. Dan has spent the last nine years studying social skills, and his passion is empowering shy people to be able to talk to anyone and make new friends. He's the founder of thefriendformula.com which is a site that teaches simple, practical, and proven techniques to help shy people make connections everywhere they go. And right now, he's focused all of his attention on teaching small talk mastery. Since most shy people avoid small talk, he helps them uncover the power of being able to use small talk and then create meaningful conversations with it. So I'm super excited. I've got a chance to meet Dan recently over the last couple months, and I think he knows a ton about this topic, which is extremely valuable. So thank you so much for joining us today, Dan.

No problem. It's great to be here, Aziz. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. So small talk, I think this is gonna be a really powerful interview because I'm sure most people listening, and I know I was there for many years, just the words small talk create this kind of cringy. You know, it's like you're saying root canal. Maybe not that bad, but, you know, like, so I'm. So this is gonna be so great because I know you have not only the skills that you teach people how to do it, but also how to see it differently so it stops being so unpleasant and actually can become something that you. You really can use in your life. But before we dive into the technical side of it, I'm just really curious about your experience. You know, you've been studying it for nine years and. And maybe even longer.

What? Why?

What brought you to want to learn how to master small talk?

Yeah, that's a great question. So, yeah, like you mentioned, definitely when people hear those words, small talk, definitely very cringe worthy. And I think, as you know, if you go on Google and you just Google small talk, it's probably one of the most divisive social skills topics ever. Right? You Know, you have some people that support it and love it, say that it's so important. And then on the other hand, there's a lot of people that say it's pointless and it's a waste of time. And I think Most people, probably 80, 90%, are on the ladder right where they feel like small talk is just a waste of time. And so I think there's a lot of misconceptions. And for me, the reason I got into it and the reason that I was really interested was because, you know, I've been shy since I was a kid, as long as I can remember, just, you know, naturally quiet. And it didn't really bother me that much. I thought it was, you know, I was fine being quiet and shy. But then as I started working, which was about, you know, nine, 10 years ago, when I started getting into this stuff, I realized, you know, as I looked around the room, I noticed that all of the managers, the executives, they were all really, really good at small talk. And, you know, that got me thinking, and that's kind of what got the ball rolling and got me interested.

Yeah, interesting. So seeing how the people that were higher up or more successful seem to all have mastered this skill.

Exactly. Yeah. And I thought, you know, there must be a reason for that. You know, it's. You know, personally, I thought small talk was just, you know, just meaningless conversation, didn't really do anything. I didn't really understand why people did it, but it seemed to be that it was an important skill for. For a lot of people. And I want to figure out why that was the case and how exactly they were doing it.

Awesome. Well, I mean, success leaves clues. And so when we see people that are maybe more successful or where we want to be, it's always great to study and model. And in fact, I think there's one thing that we need to. I need to ask you right now, before we even begin this discussion about small talk, which is what exactly is small talk? Is it just the first few moments of conversation that you have with someone you don't know, or what is it?

Yeah, great question. We should definitely get everyone on the same page here and just define what it is. So if you do Google definition of small talk and you look at, for example, Wikipedia or Urban Dictionary, you'll find definitions that say things like they're conversations about nothing with acquaintances that you don't really care about. They're useless, unnecessary conversations to fill those awkward silences. That's probably the most popular definition. And, you know, I don't necessarily agree with those definitions. But for our purposes, let's say we're going to say small talk is those first few minutes of an interaction with somebody where you don't really know them too well and you're kind of easing into a conversation with light topics.

Great.

Does that make sense?

Yeah. And I like how your definition, I mean, some of those other definitions are obviously pretty skewed and their disdain for small talk was just oozing through when they wrote them. So that's great. I like. Yours is a lot more neutral in a way. And so given that, that it's that initial interaction, let's start where probably you said 80, 90% of people are probably most people listening are. Which is so what. Let's see here. There's two different directions. One is why do you think. Let's start with that. Why is it so unpleasant? Why do most people dislike it? Why is it considered uncomfortable? Especially if it's kind of like the first sort of interaction we're gonna have with someone is probably gonna be filled with it. Why do you think people dislike it so much?

Yeah, great question. I think probably the biggest thing that's causing dislike for small talk is kind of the way people define it in their own minds. Right. And so when I look at, when I talk to people and I look at what they're struggling with when it comes to small talk, there's really two big things. There's one, first of all, they don't really see the point of it, right? Which goes back to their. The definition of small talk. They don't really see what, why they should even engage in it. Right. Like, what am I going to get out of this? And then secondly, people struggle because they want to do it. You know, they want to talk to people, go up to strangers and make conversation, but their mind goes blank and they don't know what to say. So those are kind of like the two big things that I've seen.

We're going to pause for one quick moment here and then we're going to get back into our interview with small talk master Dan Chiang.

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Right? So they. The one is that it's, it's perceived as pointless or meaningless, which then makes it, you know, annoying to do or what I'm hearing in a second one, which I think I've seen a lot, is that people just aren't very good at it. And, and so then, you know, if we are not good at something and yet we feel like it's important or it keeps coming up all the time, we tend to start disliking it. So that's going to be super valuable for people to learn how to be better at it. So let's start though with that. Let's help people get to see the value of it. So what is the purpose of it? Why is it meaningful or valuable? Why is it not just a waste of time? Tell us more about that.

Yeah, absolutely. So the way I explain it to people is that conversations aren't always about information, right? We tend to think that they are. That it's, you know, a conversation is about me giving you information, you understanding that information, saying something back with more information, right? And we think that's kind of how a conversation goes, but it's not really in most cases, right? Like if you think about the last awesome conversation that you had, a lot of the times it's not even like the topic or the interesting information that you learned. It's. It's more about like the vibe and things that you felt during that conversation, right? So you know, most of the time we forget about the information, right? So the thing I tell people about small talk is that it's about bonding and not information, right? And you know, bonding is a huge, like a huge ritual. That, the way that the analogy that I use is that it's butt sniffing for humans, right? So you know, and you know, if you ever see dogs, right, they're, they're always sniffing each other's butts and you might not, I mean you might have like not really even thought about why they do that. But I did some research and it's really, really interesting like how just by smelling another dog's butt, they can actually Figure out, you know, what they had for their last meal, how their emotions are in the moment, what gender they are, all this crazy information, right? And it's just this ritual that they go through to understand the other dog and see if, you know, can I. Am I compatible with them? Do they want to hang out and play? So for humans, right, we use small talk in the same way that dogs are sniffing each other's butts, right? We're like, hey, is this guy. Does he want to, like, chill? Does he want to, like, hang out? Or is he pissed off? Should I leave him alone? So we use small talk to gather that kind of information for bonding. Right. So it's not so much the words that you use, but it's more about the ritual of it.

Yeah. That is fascinating. And, you know, in terms of warming me up to small talk, comparing it to smelling a dog's butt, but I.

Love it might not be the best analogy.

No, but it is fascinating because it makes a lot of sense, and it is a sort of feeling out of the other person and, you know, an initial beginning of connection. And you're right. But we're not going up to them and saying, how open on a scale of 1 to 10, are you to talking with me? How angry are you from 1 to 10, you know, exactly. Are you interested in the same topics as I am? I mean, I guess you could in some really direct way, ask those things, but for the most part, we assess that by being in the presence of the person and just talking back and forth about something smaller or less direct. And then, yeah, you know, like the dog that picks up the emotions of the other animal, we do the same thing.

Yeah. And, you know, it's funny, as you're talking, I was thinking, you know, I remember back in college, I was, you know, in a phase where I was just very, very caring about other people. Right. I. I genuinely wanted to know how they were doing. So I would go up to people and ask them, like, super intense questions, like, hey, how's. How's everything going? You doing well emotionally, like, any struggles? Right. And, like, it would. And I remember the reactions I would get, they were just. People were just really, really turned off, and they would immediately put up barriers, like, dude, what is this guy? What is he doing? Get out of my space. And that's probably, like, when I realized the importance of easing into things and taking up one step and then the next step instead of trying to rush all the way to the end.

Yeah, that is a super valuable thing because I've Heard this a ton. You know, I hate small talk. And also there's this sort of like, it's pointless and we should be talking about something more significant, which is actually kind of funny, because if you look at people that are friends that are just totally relaxed around each other, they might be. Or, you know, someone with their girlfriend or their boyfriend or their husband or their wife, they might be always talking about very serious, deep, significant, meaningful things, but probably not. They're just enjoying each other's company. There's just some banter. There's just some like, hey, how are those waffles? Oh, they're great. You know, and. And yet, so. So this, like, disdain of it, I don't think is really about that. We really just want deep, meaningful conversations. I think it's. It's just not liking that discomfort of feeling like we're not good at it, feeling like we should be better at it, and. And ultimately then, you know, wanting to avoid it. So I think this is super valuable, what you're talking about.

You know, that's so. That's so true, what you said. You know, I think people, when they're in that situation where they don't know someone, they. It's really uncomfortable. Right. When you don't know what to do. And it's just like the same thing over and over, right? Where you're just like, hey, man, nice day today, huh? Yeah, real nice. All right, see you later. Right. And that's it. So that people don't like it because they don't really understand what to do next, how to progress, how to deepen that conversation. So. Yeah.

Yes. So let's help people, because, you know, you and I both know that what you can do is you can start with the small talk, and then if, you know, if the butt sniffing checks out, then you can have a great conversation about stuff that's really interesting to you, but you kind of need to, in a lot of situations, need to start with that small talk. So it's super valuable. So let's talk about. Okay, how do we get better at this? So I know you teach. You kind of break it down in a really simple, powerful way that's very digestible, and people can use it right away. Tell me more about. And I think you have three steps in it. What is the initial thing? What do we say? How do we start that small talk? We're going to take one more quick break right now, and then we're going to continue with our interview with confidence expert Dan Chang. Does working with Dr. Aziz actually work. Can you really break free from social anxiety and live a life of confidence, success, and happiness? Here is what one client had to say about his if someone is thinking.

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Yeah, absolutely. So the key thing you want to do during small talk in order to build that connection and to deepen it, is the first thing you want to do is to move past cliches and facts. So the way that I'd explain it is that every conversation as it progresses usually has four phases. There's first cliches, second facts, third opinions, and then fourth feelings. So cliches are things like, oh, you know, nice weather. And then facts are things like, oh, what'd you do this weekend? And then opinions are things like, man, I hate baloney. Or I'm sorry, I'm terrible with, like, examples and analogies, like, forgive me. And it's okay.

You could say Donald Trump on the show. It's fine. I'm just kidding. Who knows? Maybe you love Donald Trump. But anyway, exactly. An opinion about some. Some thing in the world or some.

Yep, right. Exactly. And the way a simple way to think about opinions are just, I like or I don't like. That's probably the most basic way to think about it. And then the fourth phase is feelings. Right. I'm excited, I'm happy, sad. Right. So the first step is to move beyond cliches and facts into opinions and feelings and trying to uncover those and, you know, as you ask someone questions and you're really curious about them, you know, I think probably a big Mistake that most people make when they're starting a conversation is they focus a lot on themselves. Right. They really put a lot of pressure on themselves to say something really clever or interesting. And I think this is why a lot of people blank out. They're like, all right, okay. They go through this whole Rolodex of things to say, and then each one, they just block it and filter it out. And then in the end, they either don't say anything or like, the person's gone already and you're still trying to think of something to say. Right. So I think with that first step, it's important to not focus so much on yourself and how interesting you are, but to focus on the other person, be really curious about them, and then uncover those opinions and feelings.

Great. And so what you're saying, though, is if step. If the first stage or the first element of the conversation. First step is cliches, the next one is facts. And then. So you're saying you want to get to the deeper stuff, opinions and feelings. But would you start with just a few cliches or factual questions?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know. And, you know, these three steps that we're going through are really how to connect with someone through small talk. And it's just like the very core. Right. So definitely. Yeah, you're right. There are things that come before. Right. So we do want to start with cliches and then move on and progress. Because this is how you're going to make someone comfortable and make it feel natural. Right. Instead of. Instead of, like, jumping too quick like we talked about.

Yes. I love that you said that, Dan, because that is so important. I can just. I'm thinking of all the people that I've worked with over the years who are kind of like, I hate that stuff. I don't want to do it. And that's fine. I always say that. It's like, that's okay. Like, I'm not gonna force you, and, you know, no one's gonna make you. But here's the thing. If you are against it, you're also probably pretty uncomfortable with it. And if you're uncomfortable with it, like, you're gonna really limit your ability to connect with people. Because guess What? You know, whatever, 80, 90, whatever big percentage of people, even if they don't consider themselves shy, are generally uncomfortable with small talk. Meeting new people. I mean, maybe they're not totally freaked out, but they're not at ease. And that's why people drink when they do it. That's why they prefer to be introduced, all that stuff. So if you decide to say, hey, I want to get good enough, I don't have to be the best in the world, but if I just get good enough at this, then I can actually, if I can play that initial stage, the cliche, the fact question just a little bit, then you can really put people at ease and then you can get to that stuff that you're talking about very quickly and really enjoy yourself in the deeper stuff.

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, most shy people I found are really, really good at that. One on one, deep, meaningful conversation.

Yeah.

You know, and it's, you know, once they get to that stage, they're fine and they feel comfortable. So, you know, to be able to take this first step, which is really, really just a small part of your interaction. Right. Just a few minutes and learning how to master that can get the ball rolling and get you to that phase where you're more comfortable.

Yeah, I love it. I was just at a little dinner party gathering. It was a guy who gathered together a bunch of entrepreneurs in the city of Portland here. And other than him, the organizer, and it turned out there was one other guy I knew there. There was about 10 people there and I didn't know the other eight people at all. And that you come into the room, I was kind of a few minutes late, so everyone was already there. And there's like some hors d' oeuvres before the dinner and everyone's just chatting and he comes in and greets me and he says, hey, welcome. And you know, so we're gonna sit down at the dinner and I'm gonna do a little game where I introduce people and their, in their businesses and what they do. So for this first part, I'm gonna ask you to not talk about the work that you do. So. So no one knows. So then we can kind of play this fun game to introduce each other. So, you know, just go connect with people and can't talk about work. And it's funny because in the past, you know, flashback X number of years, I probably wouldn't have even gone to the dinner. And if I did go, I would have been really nervous beforehand. And in that moment I would have been like, oh, this is gonna be terrible.

Yeah.

And instead I. I guess I just have this trust of like, oh, this is going to be. This is easy. Because I am very good at small talk. And so it's like a superpower you become. It helps with like anxiety and fear because so much of the fear, you're right when we connect with that person and we're having a great conversation, usually the fear disappears. It's just that beginning.

Yeah.

So when we can do that. And I remember there was a woman there, and a couple people were chatting, and then they moved away. And it was just me and her standing there. And there's just kind of that moment where you're like. And, you know, people are trying to grasp for something great to say or witty. And here she is. I don't know anything about her. All I know is her name. And there's nothing obvious that she's wearing or has on her that I could ask about. It's just total kind of neutral. And so I said, so what part of town do you live in? Uh, oh, like the most cliched, you know, thing.

Yeah.

But it was, like, kind of smooth and seamless, so it took off the. That kind of. What do we say? She obviously didn't know what to say either. And then she started telling me, and then she asked me, and then we started talking about her house. And it was, like, factual then. But then if you listen, you can start to find the deeper stuff. And it all comes from that initial cliche or factual question. So I think those are extremely important, and they really do get to that deeper stuff. That brings us to the end of the time we have today for the interview. But there is so much more good stuff. We broke it up into the next episode because I want to be able to get to all of that stuff. I didn't want to cut anything out. In next week's episode, we're going to get into some really powerful stuff. I'll tell you about it in a second. But before we do, we can't leave without your action step.

Time for action.

Your action step for today is to apply one thing that you learned from Dan in this interview. So maybe it's step one. Maybe it's being able to come up with some basic cliched or factual questions, because as we talked about, those are important. Maybe it's just practicing those or trying those out or starting with those and then seeing, you know, can I lead into opinions? Can I find out their opinions? Can I ask them about their opinions? Can I ask them about their feelings? So that's an important thing. So try out the stuff from step one, or maybe try out some of the stuff from step two. Affirming. Can you practice that? Can you bring your attention and your focus and your intention to go do that in your conversations? Because the more you focus on that, the more you Intend to practice it. The more you will and of course, the better you will get at it. Like anything that we practice. So that's your action step for today, is to go do something. Don't just take it as intellectual information that you sit with. Put it into action. Put it into practice. That is how your small talk skills will transform into mastery and how your confidence and your life ultimately transforms. All comes from action. So do that this week and then stay tuned next week. We're gonna dive right back into the remainder of the interview with Dan where we get into some great stuff. We get into the third step, and I'm not gonna reveal what it is, but it's the most important thing. It's one of the reasons why most people, if you ever felt this way, you feel drained after conversations. You don't enjoy them. They're kind of tough or hard. The main reason, I think, is you're not doing the third step that Dan teaches. So you're gonna definitely wanna listen to that. And we also talk about witty banter and humor and how to use it. He teaches a super valuable ninja technique about how to make everyone laugh in a way that feels pretty low risk and safe for you, so you're not really putting yourself out there. And we play a fun little game where we actually demonstrate some small talk. And it's not just talking about it, but we actually do it. So you get to see it in action and watch Dan work because he is a master. So stay tuned for all of that next week until we speak. Then may you have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

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