How to Master Small Talk with Dan Chang Part 2

Coming to you from the center for Social Confidence in Portland, Oregon, welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy helping men everywhere go from social anxiety to social domination with your host, Dr. Aziz. Hey, everybody. Welcome to today's episode of the show. How are you doing today? On a scale of 1 to 10, how confident are you right now in this moment? 10. Being totally confident. I believe in myself. I like myself. Things are looking good. I can take care of things. People like me. Of course they like me. I'm awesome. That's a 10. Maybe a one would be the opposite of all that. I suck. I'm terrible. Nothing's ever gonna work out. No one likes me. I'm ugly. I'm a loser. And if you're there, that's okay too, because you're listening to me and you're listening to this show. And this is a powerful way to bring yourself up that spectrum from 1 to 5 to 10, because the more you focus on this, the more you study this stuff, the more you learn this. You know, I'm sure you've heard me say that confidence is a skill. So the more you learn, the more you apply, the more you take action, the more you work on yourself and transform how you feel about yourself, the more it lasts and the better you feel over time. It's a skill. You can learn it. So I'm so glad you're here with me today. And speaking of skills, we're going to be diving into the second half of my interview with small talk master Dan Cheng, where if you haven't listened to the first half, you're probably going to want to pause this and go back. Listen to the first half of the interview. He's teaching his three step formula for connecting through small talk. How to be a master at it. It's super valuable and awesome. And we're going to be diving right into the middle. So make sure you listen to the first interview and if you already have, then welcome back and let's get right back into it. If you want to learn more about Dan or read the transcript or look at the show notes as well, go to shrinkfortheshy guy, shrinkfortheshiguy.com and you can learn more about me there. You can actually also reach out to me if you have questions. I've been doing some more bonus episodes with Q and A and ask the shrink. So if you want to ask me questions, that's a great way to do it as well. You can also go deeper with my ebook there for free called 5 Steps to Unleash youh Inner confidence. And that is@shrinkforthshyguy.com. so let's get back into that interview with Dan where you're going to learn the most important thing, I think, when it comes to connecting with small talk and about humor, about how to do this in your. In your life. Watch an example of me and Dan doing it. It's going to be awesome. So let's dive into that interview right now.

Expert interview.

You can start to find the deeper stuff. And it all comes from that. That initial cliche or factual question. So I think those are extremely important, and they really do get to that deeper stuff.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. I really like what you said about it being less like a superpower, because as I've mastered small talk over the past few years, it really, really has changed my life so much. Right. Like at work or just, like, when I'm out talking to random people, you know, you. It really snowballs and creates things that you wouldn't even expect. Right? And, you know, like you said, you can just, you know, most people are so afraid of just, you know, saying something that's really cliche because they think they have to be interesting. Right? But, you know, I, you know, just like you. I've started so many conversations with things like that you think are not interesting at all, right? So I. There was a guy, you know, that was standing on the train, right? And I was like, he had a tattoo on his arm. And I was like, oh, cool tattoo. Right? And then we started talking. We talked for, like, half an hour, right? And then we ended up exchanging phone numbers, you know, and, you know, like, every day on the commute, I'm, like, always just talking to people. And then the way to open a conversation is, like. Is so simple that it's ridiculous, but I think a lot of people tend to just overthink it.

Yeah. So that's. That's great. I mean, so there's. There's the cliched questions are fine. What do you, you know, what do you do? Do you live nearby or what part of town do you live in? Or what you did there, which is just a comment like, nice tattoo. Nice jacket. Where'd you get it? You know, I love that those are cool glasses, right? You can just. It can be that simple to just make that initial contact. And then probably my guess is what you did, Dan, because you're really good at this, is you followed up with, like, you're just super curious about the person. You mentioned that earlier. So then whatever they say in response to Your kind of generic or cliched question you're really listening. To be able to take it deeper or to go in the directions that you want.

Yes, absolutely. And which brings us to the next step, actually, which is a perfect transition. Perfect, yeah. So after you get them talking about their opinions and their feelings, the next thing you want to do is to affirm what they say. This is so important. And I can't. I can't even begin to, like, talk about how many times I've talked to people and they just kind of, like, look at you with a blank face or they just don't respond the way that you're expecting. Right. So. And actually, my wife gives me a hard time because I'm actually not that great at this. So I've been working on this, but she's like. She'll tell me, like, you know, he was cracking jokes the whole time, and you didn't even laugh or give him, like, a sympathy chuckle or anything, right?

I'm sorry, baby. He wasn't funny. I couldn't.

You know, that's. That's how I, you know, used to operate. Just like, if it's not funny, I'm not gonna laugh. Which, I mean, I still kind of believe in, but, you know, it's like at the same time, it's like when someone says something, they're. They're opening up and they're putting a piece of themselves out there for the world, right? And how you respond is really important. And it's going to determine how they, you know, whether they keep. Keep putting more of this themselves out there or whether they close up and put up walls. Right? So when someone says something, you. You need to affirm what they say. But I think a huge, huge problem. And there's this guy that I know, he. I don't know what his deal is, but he. He always, like, has this need to be smarter than you or something, or, like, disagree with you or see the other perspective as he, as he says.

Play devil's advocate or something.

Yeah, right. Yes. Super annoying, right? And so whenever you talk to him, he always. As you're talking, he'll, like, put his hand on his chin and be like, yeah, I don't know. Right. Or like, he'd be like, well. Or, you know, well, actually. Right. And after, like, everything I say, and it's so annoying, so I end up just not talking to him because that, you know, that disaffirmation, if that's a word, really, really puts you off. Right. When you're in those beginning phases of a conversation, right? Like, sure, it's okay to disagree with someone when you're having, like a full blown, like, conversation, but in the beginning, when you're starting out, it's really important as someone sharing to affirm what they say, right? Even if it's really, really simple, right? Like, like, like again, I'm going to come up with a awesome example right now. If they're like, oh, yeah, this, you know, I love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, right? And you're like, oh, my God, yes. Right? Like, you don't even necessarily have to love them yourself. But you know, there's this rule in improv comedy, right, where there's a rule called yes and where you, after everything, like someone does, you just say yes. And right? You. You always agree with what they say and then you build upon it because if you disagree with the other person, it's going to break rapport, right? So you don't even have to agree, right? Like, for example, Aziz, if you told me that you liked peanut butter and jelly and I didn't like it, like, I could still use the same formula, right? I could be like, yes, peanut butter and jelly. You know, my, My. My sister loves that too, but you know, I'm not a big fan, right? Like, so just just by starting off with the word yes, right? Like, just using that is. Is huge.

Mm. Yeah. I love that you're building. There's just so many great images that are coming to mind as you're talking. It's like they're kind of putting a little bit of themselves out there and, and how we receive that will determine if they keep doing it. It's almost like a little hermit crab, like kind of poking out of its shell or a gopher coming and kind of poking up out of its hole. And you know, if you do the. If you kind of pounce at the gopher, it's going to run away. And the same thing with this. If we, in this case, the pouncing the way that if we receive it poorly, you know, one way might be stone faced. We're just like staring at them. And maybe you're doing that because you're nervous or because you feel uncomfortable being expressive. But what I hear Dan saying, it's so important is you want to be expressive. You want to. With your. With your energy, with saying yes, you want to be responsive in some way. So if there's just a blank, blank slate, people are not going to. The gopher is going to go back down in his hole. And similarly, if they share something you know, you want to not always be looking for the, you know, the mismatching or why it's different or why you don't like it. And I agree with you, Dan. Like, disagreeing is important and being authentic, and we don't want to be the overly nice guy. But in those initial phases, we want to find a way to keep bringing the. Bringing more and more of them out. And I love that. So saying yes and building on it and finding. Finding like a level of enthusiasm with them that. Yeah, that's like, yeah, come on out. And you don't have to be the craziest, most animated person, but you just don't want to be like peanut butter and jelly.

Exactly.

What do they do with that? They're like, okay, yeah.

And that's right. And you know, by the way, can I steal that gopher analogy? Because you're a lot better at this than I am.

Done. That is yours officially.

Sweet. Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna consult you on every analogy I make. Now.

Go for. We'll draw a picture. You know what's really interesting? We're gonna pause here for just one moment, take a quick break, and then continue with our interview with social confidence master and small talk master, Dan Cheng. If you don't think much of yourself.

How do you imagine other people will think of you?

You guessed it.

If we want others to take us.

Seriously, like us, and be attracted to.

Us, we must first master our self esteem.

That's exactly what you'll learn how to do in Dr. Z's brand new version.

Of the confidence code. Go to YourConfidenceCode.com now to learn more. And get your free copy of his ebook, Radical Self.

Three Ways to Truly Love Yourself in two Weeks. Well, no, I'm gonna pause here because you were saying some really good stuff and I actually want to keep hearing from you. So when they are sharing and they're putting more of themselves out there, we're affirming them, we're encouraging them in a way to keep doing it. Maybe. What are some other. Maybe one or two other ways that we can help that gopher come out? Yeah, examples of how we affirm or anything else that you teach?

Yeah, I have. Yeah, something else that I teach which is matching them. Which it's kind of like matching and mirroring, but I don't like. But yeah, I break it down into like matching their energy, matching their body language and their. Their voice.

Oh. So tell us for someone who might not have heard of the term matching and mirroring to tell Us a little. What do you mean by matching?

Yeah, so when you're affirming someone, you're showing them that you're similar, showing them that you get it, right? Because they've just exposed themselves to you. That sounds weird. I need your help with my illustrations. Yeah. So in addition to affirming what they say, agreeing with them, understanding them, another way to affirm them and show that you get it is by matching their energy level. And the way to do that is to match their voice. So how they talk, specific words that they use, and then secondly, match their body, right? So their body language, right? Like if they're leaning against something really relaxed or if they're slouching, right? Like, all of that is indicate an indication of their energy level, right? And if you think about it, right, if you are really tired, you've had a long day, you're just like, you just want to get home and lay down in your bed. There's nothing more annoying than someone who is on the opposite end of the energy spectrum, right? Someone comes up to you like, hey, man, how's it going? Awesome. Cool. Right? And you just want them to go away, right? Because they're not matching you where you are. And then vice versa. If you're really excited, you just. You just got a new job and you're freaking out, you're like, yes, killed it. And. And then someone comes up to you and they're like, hey, what's going on? You got a new job. Cool, dude. Right? And. And they're not matching you where you are, then that also breaks the connection.

Does that make sense? That's super important. It's Matt. Yeah. Matching a lot of different things, including your energy level there. And I think. I love how when you help people think about how they would respond to someone else, it helps make it very clear about, well, then that's how other people would be, too. So we want to find a way to match that energy, match someone's enthusiasm about something. And I think that, again, helps them feel more connected to us. So let's get into that third step. So now we are affirming what they're saying. They're sharing more. What's the third step? To really connect with small talk.

All right. Yeah. So step number three, the very last step. So as you're talking to someone, especially if you're shy, it's important that you don't just become a bobblehead and just keep agreeing with what. Whatever the person's saying, right? So I have a friend, and this one time we were out having lunch together and there was, there's another table of women sitting next to us. And this woman started talking to us and I was just eavesdropping on the conversation. And she was like, she was a middle aged woman, she had a daughter in college and she was sharing a lot about her life. Right. And which was good, right? He was, you know, having her open up and affirming what she was saying. And she was, she was, every time she said something, he would just nod and agree and be like, oh, cool, cool. All right. Oh, nice, sweet, cool. And what happens is it becomes a nice conversation for her, but there's not really a connection that's being built because she, you know, my friend got to know a lot about her, but she didn't really get to know about him. So when we're trying to build that connection, not only do you have to uncover someone's opinions and feelings and then affirm them, but you need to show how you're similar. Right? So you need to relate with your own opinions and feelings. So. So that's step number three. Relate with your opinions and feelings.

Yeah, yeah, that's super important. And I think I've definitely been there where the other person is talking and sharing and, and I'm maybe not as engaged as I'm pretending to be by nodding and being the bobblehead. Or maybe I am engaged. But you're right that, you know, in a way I've hidden through the conversation and they don't really know me. They haven't really, you know, I got the gopher to come all the way out of the hole for them, but mine was like kind of hiding and just poking out with his eyes enough to nod. So they don't really leave feeling like they know me. And sometimes I think when we're shy, it feels safer to do that. It's like, well, you know, I got them to like me, I think, but. And I don't have to risk as much by, you know, if I put my ideas or my opinions or my feelings or more of who I am out there, well, that's, you know, then they could reject me. So we kind of stay safe. But I think you're highlighting a very important point because if we do that, they're not really going to feel that connected to us. We're not really building a real connection over time.

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, it is safer to just not say anything and keep it all inside. But once, you know, this framework and you see what good small talk is, that you understand that it's important to focus on the other person, affirm what they say. Right. If you do share and the person disagrees with what you say, they talk about themselves some more. You can have the confidence knowing that, you know what I just opened up and I shared about myself and this person is not responding appropriately. And so, you know, most people aren't actually very good at small talk. So, you know, as you, as you do it more. Right. Like, you know, it's okay because just know that if you're doing it correctly, you know, that's what counts. Right.

And you get information because. Okay. Oh, man. This is so important too, because we approach conversations on some level with like, I gotta get this person to like me. Especially if, you know, they're. They're important and we're feeling anxious. That's how often our unconscious motive is to get them to like us. And we're so focused on that and doing it right that we don't actually assess. Does this feel good for me?

Yeah.

When I share, when I'm doing step three. That's why I think it's such an important step. You know, 1 and 2 are great, but if you just did 1 and 2, you might never really enjoy yourself. You might feel extremely drained. There's a lot of people that I work with who are, you know, like myself, more introverted. And they say, well, I feel extremely drained after talking to people. And I'm always like, well, maybe, I mean, sometimes that's part of introversion. Maybe you need some recharge time. But it also could be. And I didn't use, you know, I didn't have your framework at the time. But really, I think people are just doing steps one and two and not step three. And that can be kind of draining because you're not really getting that connection, which is the energizing part. But if you, if you do step three and you share and you get these kind of responses that don't feel that good, that's a great indicator of, well, maybe I don't want to go way deeper with this person. Maybe, you know, if it's a party or a gathering or something, maybe you wrap up in a minute or two and go talk to someone else, that's more fun.

Yeah.

And that's, that's your right to do that.

Yeah. And that's the greatest thing about mastering this stuff. It's, you know, you, you're no longer, you know, just looking to affirm yourself through every interaction. Right. Like, you don't need people to, to tell you that you're good or, you know, you don't need approval from other people. But, you know, you can actually go into a conversation with the proper knowledge and, you know, like you said, decide whether this is something that you want to stay in or not. And, you know, most importantly, you know, why we're doing this in the end is to enjoy ourselves, right. And to actually enjoy spending time with people, enjoy talking to them. Because ultimately, you know, that's what. That's like the fifth human need or something. You know, like there's shelter, water, food, whatever, and, and, you know, human connection. Right. Like, we. We will not, we cannot thrive if we don't enjoy social interaction with other humans.

Totally. I love it. Okay, so there's. There's one other question I have for you, and then I want to play a little game, which I think could be really fun. So the last question I want to ask, though, before the game is what about witty banter? Where does that fall in? Because I think that's extremely important and that is actually a good percentage of my small talk. I'm actually looking for funny stuff. I'm looking to make the other person laugh. I'm looking to have a good time myself, even if they don't laugh as much, to entertain myself and them. So where does that fall into small talk? We're gonna pause for just one more moment and then get to the conclusion of our interview with small talk master Dan Chang. Stay tuned. Are you single? Do you want to meet someone but feel completely held back and stuck when it comes to meeting women, flirting, and getting dates? After spending over a decade of his life stuck in the same struggle, Dr. Aziz found the way to freedom and confidence with women. It's what he teaches his private clients how to do every day. Want to get there yourself? Go to 30daystodatingmastery.com to get a free copy of Dr. Aziz's e book, 7 Ways to Start conversations with women, Anytime, anywhere, and start meeting women today.

Yeah, awesome question. I personally love humor. It's. I. I plan on making a full course about it because that's how much I love it. It's like I, I watch stand up comedians. I love to analyze humor and break it down. And the way I think about humor is that it's the shortcut to connection, right? If you look at any good conversational list, if they're funny and they know how to use humor correctly, they're going to like, they skyrocket, right? And then they're like, people are like, they're laughing. They're you know, touching each other and they're just. There's this quick bond that happens through humor. It's. For whatever reason, it's really, really magical. So, yes, I'm really glad you asked this question with small talk. Right, so what we just talked about, those three steps, that's the, you know, the basic framework, right? So those are like the step by step things, bread and butter, that you need to understand in order to deepen the conversation. But then humor, that's like, like I said, that's like the, the spaceship shortcut. And the way that the most effective thing that I found to really bond people together is teasing, specifically playful teasing. I think that's the most. The easiest thing to do and the most powerful, and it can be kind of tricky. I don't really have time to get into all of it right now, but I think the easiest way for you to start testing it out and learning how to do it is using something I call the callback, or that's called the callback. And I noticed this a lot when I was talking to people. And it works really, really well. Like, 99% of the time it works. And it's so easy to do and it's so powerful. And it creates this, like, inside joke kind of thing with people. You ready for it?

Yes, tell us. Fill us in.

All right, cool. So I learned this from stand up comedy, right? If you ever listen to a whole set, you'll notice that comedians, they'll tell a joke one time, right? And it's like, you know, they'll get laughter and, you know, you know, it performs, okay? But then for whatever reason, when they refer back or call back to that joke a second time, the audience laughs really, really hard. Like a lot harder than the first time for whatever reason. And, you know, it's because that the joke is familiar, right? They've, they've already created that before. So it's almost like time travel, right? It's like that inside joke that you have with an old friend. You're basically creating that within a matter of minutes, right? So how you can do it is all you have to do is when someone's talking, you just listen for one thing. That's. It doesn't even have to be that funny, right? Just something that's interesting or quirky or, you know, fun. Something that you remember or, you know, the best thing is to do is to remember a joke, right? Something that made everybody laugh, right? So, for example, right, like we were hanging out with my friends, and one of those, the girls, she she was saying that Britney Spears, her song I'm not a girl or I'm a girl not yet a woman or something like that was her favorite song. And so then we're all laughing and making fun of her, right? And I was like, oh, that's pretty funny. Interesting. So I held on to that, right? And then it was like 10 or 15 minutes later, people were talking about dating and all this. And then. And all I did was I just pulled that same thing out and used it. Right. In a different context. Right. So I just said, well, you know, she wouldn't know. She's just a girl not yet a woman. Right. And then everyone erupted in laughter, you know, and it's really, really easy. You can. You can do it with literally anything, you know, and all you have to do is refer to it again in a different context. Yes.

And what's great about that is it's combining the callback with teasing, right? Because you're kind of. You're kind of teasing her playfully about, oh, she likes that song. And, you know, in that dating example, like, she's just a girl. It's like a little playful tease with her. So that's like the double whammy. Teasing and call back.

Boom. Y. Yeah. Boom. And, you know, and, you know, and the thing is, it's really, really safe to do, right. If you're. If you're scared about taking risks and looking stupid. You know, this is really easy because you're using a joke that everybody already thought was funny before and you're just repeating it again, and it's going to be even funnier. Yeah, it's safer.

I mean, that's the whole. I mean, dude, that would be a whole fascinating. I'm glad you're going to do a course on it. I think it'll be a whole fascinating interview, actually. Maybe we will have an interview that's just focused on this because it's so important. It is the shortcut rocket ship. And I think a big piece of it actually is risk. And, you know, a lot of humor, a lot of what makes people erupt, you know, I love you that you said that word erupt in laughter is. It's. It's different than what's expected. There's a. And so, yeah, in a way, there's a risk there. And I think sometimes we're scared, you know, with a good buddy or with our friends, we take the risk because it feels safe. You know, we know, we know they love us, but when we're bold enough and get skilled enough with it. To start taking that risk when you just met someone 30 seconds ago, and you do it, and you. And you can make. And it's funny, and it's playful, and they get it, and they laugh. Then, boom, you guys can connect like your old friends in five minutes. And it's. It's pretty amazing stuff. So perhaps. Perhaps more there. But let's. Before we wrap today, in a moment, I'll have you share a little bit more about where people can find your awesome formula, because I'm sure this is great. Just these three steps, the overview of them is extremely valuable. I'm sure diving deeper in is going to be absolutely essential for anyone who wants to master this. So we'll share that in a second. Before we do, though, this just came to me during our conversation today. I don't know how it's gonna go, but I want to give it a shot. Okay. Because we can talk about doing small talk for a long time, and that's useful. But sometimes modeling is a very powerful way to learn. And so you and I know each other. Some. Not super deep, but we do know some information and stuff about each other. So I want to kind of pretend like we don't. So you can't just refer to something that I've shared with you already. Right. Same way for me. And I'm like, oh, so how are the kids? Like, you don't know that I have kids.

Right, right. You can start on the ground.

Yeah. So we just met, and of course, that might unfold, and I don't know, we'll just do a few minutes. Not to be, like, a half hour of this, but let's just play around and demonstrate some small talk. Like, we just met at a. At this. You know, I was at this dinner last night, so it's like this dinner party or something. Everyone's standing around having hors d', oeuvres, and I don't know anything about you. I know just, oh, there's this guy over there. So let's just. If you're. If you're into it, we'll just play for a minute and just see what happens, and then we'll do a quick debrief. Does that sound fun?

Yeah, sounds fun. I'm into it. Okay, let's do it.

Okay.

Okay.

So this is.

This will be fun because it's a little bit more challenging because it's on the phone, so we don't have, like, visual cues and all that stuff. But still, though, I think, like, phone conversations are a whole nother thing that people Struggle with.

So this will be next level.

I know. Yeah.

And for that, you know, we can just make up stuff. Like, you can ask me about, you know, pretending I'm eating something or whatever. So the question would be, do you want to approach? Be the one who starts the conversation, or would you like me to?

Yeah, I'll do it. I'll approach. Because. Because I'm the one that's teaching.

Because you're the man.

Yeah. You know, watch the master work.

Take notes, young gopher.

All right, all right, hold on. Let me get a sip of water. Real. All right, you ready?

Yep.

Okay. Wait. What's the setting?

We're at a dinner. It's gonna be a dinner thing, but there's, like, we're standing around, we're eating hors d' oeuvres before the actual meal. There's, like, maybe 20 people kind of milling about, chatting with each other.

Cool. Okay. All right. Hey, how's it going, man? So what brings you here?

Oh, hey, I was invited by Michael. He said it would be a great chance to meet some people and just connect with local business owners here in Portland.

Oh, nice. Nice. Oh, so you know Michael? How do you know him?

He actually reached out to me a while back and interviewed me for his podcast.

Oh, cool. So you. Do. You, like, do teaching and stuff like that?

I do, actually.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, I teach people on the. You know, not like a traditional educational institution or something like a college, but I teach people how to be more confident.

Oh, cool. You know, I. I used to struggle with confidence as a little kid, you know, and this is. That's, like, super interesting stuff to me. So how'd you get into that?

I will tell you. I'm also curious in what you said there, which is interesting. I'll tell you in a sec. No, I'm super curious. What. Tell me more. You said you used to. What was it like when you were a kid?

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, when I was a kid, I was really shy, and, you know, I really lacked confidence, and when I would get nervous, I would actually, like, twitch. I blink a lot.

And.

Yeah, so it wasn't. It wasn't good. Yeah, so I've taken. You know, like, over the years, I've really spent a lot of time, like, following people, you know, like you. You know, teaching through podcasts and videos and stuff, and just trying to learn how to. How to become more confident and social. So, yeah, dude, it's you.

Obviously, you won because you were, like, super easy to talk to and seem very confident to Me.

Oh, thanks, man. That's. That's really nice. Thanks. So what was I going to say? Oh, yeah, so like your, your podcast and stuff. How do you, how do you like that? You know, that's pretty like non traditional, right? Like most. I've never really met anyone that, that does that kind of thing. Most of my friends are like nine to fivers. We're sitting at a desk cubicle.

I know. I. I was actually training when I was in college to do computer science and I did that for about two and a half years. And then I had one night where it's like the middle of the night and I was programming something and I. And I was like, wait a minute, even when I get through this sucky phase, I'm gonna get a job sitting in a cubicle programming 9 to 5. If I'm lucky, maybe even longer. And then I was like, I can't do this. So I pulled the ripcord and just. I don't know, I was like, I gotta figure out a different path. So I just started pursuing what was most fascinating to me, and that was psychology. And then people. And then it was a perfect fit. Cause I was like, you really stuck in my confidence. And I was always studying that, so it kind of fit into psychology. And then, and then I went and trained and became a therapist and clinical psychologist. And now I kind of do what I do here. So I. It all started from not wanting to be in a cubicle. Really?

Yeah. I think, you know, a lot of the stuff that we, you know, we do is driven by that, like the need to escape something. Right. Like for me, right. Like you just want to get away from something. You don't know what or why, but you're just like, I gotta, I gotta make a change in my life. I gotta get away from this.

I don't know where I'm going. Not over there.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you just. That's amazing. You just like took the leap and just kind of. Kind of did it.

Yeah, there's sort of feeling my way through it step by step. And it's actually been the guiding principle since that, since that night actually was like, I'm going to pursue what excites me most. And it was often towards something that was unknown, more challenging, more uncertain, more risky. And also maybe something that didn't immediately produce a result. Like it wasn't the most, you know, obviously straight out of college, being a computer scientist would have been the most lucrative path. Getting out of college with a psychology degree, not as lucrative. And every Step of the way, I've been kind of pursuing the thing that wasn't the immediate monetary reward, but I think overall massive life satisfaction and in the long term can create a tremendous amount of prosperity, too.

Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Really planning it out. Right. For the future, the long haul. Yeah.

The lay of gratification, baby.

Oh, yeah, I'm all about that too.

Really. Let's pause here because now I want to be like, well, tell me more about now.

We're just, like, chatting. Yeah.

So anyway, for when you're listening, those who are listening right now, I want you to really maybe got sucked into the content, but really take a step back and reflect for a minute on what Dan was teaching us earlier and how he was masterfully using so many of those things. And I'll share a couple that I noticed. And Dan, maybe you can point out anything that you notice. You might be at the stage of unconscious competence where you're just. You're competent without even. It just flows out of you. That's the sense I get. But you can still probably break some of the stuff you were doing down. One thing I noticed is you did a lot of that. Affirming that. Yes. Anding, you know, whether you said that literally directly or just with your energy and your voice tone, and I gotta say, as the kind of the focus of this. Of this small talk conversation, that's what it ended up being. It feels really good. Like, I feel listened to, I feel important. I feel interesting. And I think it's because of the affirming, the curiosity you have. You matched my energy as well. So I think I saw you applying a lot of this stuff. I don't know if there's other things that you noticed or what you were consciously doing as we were through that.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the big thing is to. It's okay to focus on the other person. Right. Like, I think a lot of nervousness comes from thinking, all right, oh, shoot, it's my turn to talk. I got to say something interesting. Right? Like, oh, how do I show that I'm. I'm funny or interesting? Right. And that's what causes you to freeze up because you don't really know what to say. But, you know, when the other person is talking about themselves, it feels amazing for that person. Right. So, you know, as you're talking to them, it's okay to just keep digging deeper, you know, it's as long as you're not just asking questions to ask questions, you know, you're truly interested and you're asking meaningful questions, right. Like, they say that when people talk about themselves, you know, which is called self disclosure, it's the feelings that they get from the chemicals released in the brain is comparable to sex, good food and drugs. Like, that's how good it feels, right. When people talk about themselves. So don't be afraid of asking the person to explain more. You know, really, really get curious and ask. Just whatever comes to your mind, you know, like. Like they'll, they'll be happy to tell you more. And don't put pressure on yourself to necessarily say anything. Right. So, you know, during our conversations, right. Like, I didn't really talk that much about myself. I was just letting you talk and I was learning about you as much as possible. And then, you know, if I did think of something that related, right. Like, oh, cool, you know, I feel that way too, or, you know, made me think of something, then that's when I would share about myself. But other than that, you know, I really put the spotlight on you.

Yeah.

Which is what. Which is what small talk masters do, right. I. You know, you think of talk show hosts, right? And they are the ultimate penultimate. Is that the right word, Pen? No, they are the ultimate.

I've heard the word penultimate. I don't actually know what it means. Sure. They're the supreme ultimate.

Yeah, Right. Supreme, super ultimate small talk professionals, Right. Like, they know, they do it day in and day out, and look at what they do is they really focus on their guest.

Right.

And so we, you know, as small talk masters, that's what we got to do as well.

Yes. And what's really interesting is as we were going through that, there's like this desire in me. So, yes, I'm feeling good. It's like I ate a handful of ecstasy pills, a cheeseburger, and orgasmed all.

At the same time.

It feels good. And I'm associating like, I'm feeling good talking to Dan. I'm feeling good talking to Dan. Like, my brain's making these connections. Like, being around Dan feels good, which is nice. That's what you want, right? And also there's this kind of it feels good. And there's this natural reciprocity in humans where it feels good. And part of me, this curiosity is building in me that's kind of like, oh, but wait, I want to know about you. And that's a beautiful thing because then, you know, the focus is on me for a while, and then inevitably I'm going to shift it to him. Like, well, tell me about you. And, you know, I'm so curious about your story and. And then you get this beautiful back and forth of kind of mutual curiosity. So I think that spotlighting them first is a powerful way to build that connection because they're gonna want to know more about you. So, dude, this is really, really good stuff. I gotta say, this is one of the most technically useful, just practical, valuable interviews I've done. So I really want to thank you for showing up and sharing this stuff. And I want. I know there's people listening right now who are like, dude, I want to like, really get. If you really want to know his system and learn how to apply this stuff and take it from some kind of, you know, you got some useful stuff that you can apply right now, today, but if you want to master it, I would strongly encourage you to dive deeper into his program. So tell us a little bit more about where people can find you. We'll have a link below in the show notes and enshrinkfortheshyguy.com but tell us people how to find you.

Yeah, thanks so much, Aziz. That was really nice to hear. That really is what I do. I pride myself on taking a lot of information and then boiling it down into really, really simple concepts that you can understand and then really, really practical ways to use them. It's so nice to hear you say that and just kind of affirm what I'm doing. So thanks. Okay. Yeah. So to stay in touch with me, check out my free course@thefriendformula.com you can sign up and they'll get delivered straight into your inbox. I have an introductory video course on small talk and how to start enjoying it, how to understand it, overcome boredom and nervousness, which I found are the two biggest obstacles that people face. You can hit me up via email. You know, just reply. I read every single email that I get. You'll get updates from me, videos that I put out, random musings, and then, yeah, you can also find me on facebook.com thefriendformula and I'll be there as well. So either one of those channels, just. Yeah, check it out.

That is awesome. Good. Good man.

So.

Thank you so much for coming on, sharing this stuff and we'll have all that information down below and go forth, everyone listening, go forth and prosper in your small talk. And if you want to get even more, check Dan's stuff out the friendformula.com thanks again, Dan.

Alright, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

That brings us to the end of the interview and almost to the end of our show, but not until we do the action step.

Time for action.

Your action step today is similar to last week, which is to take one thing that you learned from this interview that you heard the second half today and apply it in your life. Maybe it's something from step three. Maybe it's practicing sharing more. Maybe you tend to hold back and not reveal much. Practice sharing. Put it out there. Maybe it's something around the humor piece that we talked about. Maybe you want to use the callback that Dan taught you. Maybe you want to just take a risk and be more bold and maybe tease someone. Try that stuff out. Pick something, try it out. Look for opportunities. Because that's how you're going to shift. That's how you're going to grow. That's how you're going to master this stuff. And I can't wait to hear about it. When you do, you can send me a message@drinkforthshyguy.com tell me about how your progress is going, how things are working out for you. I love reading those. And until we speak again, may you have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to socialconfidencecenter.com.