Life Beyond The Cage with Jeff

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey.

You're going to learn these tools and.

How to apply them in your life.

Now so that you can become the.

Most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome to today's episode of the show. Today is going to be fascinating. Look at the shift that's possible for you, the transformation that's possible for you, and really the liberation that you can experience if you are willing to commit to this process and to face your fears and to keep growing. And, you know, one thing I do at the live in person or virtual events that I do is I'll usually have some time throughout the event where I will interview people, clients, people from my Mastermind programs and elsewhere who are living this shift and showing us what's possible. And one of those men, I was like, you know, not just having a five or ten minute share at an event, let's sit down for a full interview because I really want to unpack your experience, your growth, your transformation, and therefore help anyone on the journey to grow more and to accelerate it. So today I'm bringing in a guest who, you know, knows this stuff inside and out and knows what it's like to live in that cage of social anxiety, of not knowing who you are, of being afraid that who you are is not okay. And step by step, uncomfortable sometimes, action by uncomfortable action. And through it all, a willingness and, and a hunger for something more, something else, has been able to create just most extraordinary changes in his life and by extension, people in his business and his family and everything. And you'll hear more about that. So what I'm gonna do now is we're gonna cut to an interview that I recently did with Jeff, and I actually did it on Zoom. So if you wanted to see the video version, for some reason, if you wanted to do that, you could go to my YouTube channel, which if you're not familiar with my YouTube channel, you should definitely be checking it out. It's called Get More Confidence. So you just go to YouTube and type in Get More Confidence and there will be that channel. You can subscribe to that as well as watch this Interview if you wanted to see Jeff in action. And speaking of that, we'll come back after the interview for your action step. So let's dive right into that now.

All right, Welcome. I am here with Jeff, and Jeff is an incredible man who has been on quite a journey over the last five years of growth and confidence, transformation and stepping into being who he is meant to be at bigger and bigger levels. And as a result, not just improving the quality of his own life, but also inspiring other people in larger and larger concentric circles, starting with immediate family and kids and then team members, employees, and then beyond that, in a broader community. That one of the communities that I'm in with him, which is a confidence mastermind. I see him inspiring people there, but I know he touches people in many different places in his life and in bigger and bigger ripple in the world, which demonstrates the phrase that I like to say, which is the more you that you become, the more it benefits everybody. And you will see that as we talk with Jeff. And so just recently, I was thinking, like, man, Jeff has a lot of wisdom that he's gained over his whole life, but including these last five years of really intensive growth, not just with me, but with many different teachers and groups and stuff. So we are here to extract Jeff's wisdoms, and I'll benefit as a result. So thanks for being here with us, Jeff.

Yeah, awesome. Thanks for having me. Aziz. I'm really excited to be here and talk with you today and just. Yeah, just kind of reminisce about a lot of stuff, but especially the past five years, they've been really awesome, and there's been a lot that's happened, and it's exciting to be able to talk about it.

Yeah. So let's actually start with that. So five years ago. Ish. In that range, you know, people see you now talking on a video interview, seemingly very relaxed, confident. They'd be like, oh, maybe that's how Jeff always would show up. And, you know, just so people can. Can get a sense. Five years ago or before six years ago, whatever, before you started on this journey, what.

What.

What was your experience socially around people, speaking, leading, putting yourself out there? What was your life like?

Yeah. So I guess I'll start with. I guess what kind of brought a lot of things together to start the change. And I grew up really somewhat shy and had difficult time really connecting. I was. So I. You know, that was always there. It was. It was a big part, and I knew it, but I did. You know, when you're young, you Just don't really know what's going on, but, you know, there's something. Right. So. But around 2015, I started to. Well, I was going through a divorce, and my brother was diagnosed with cancer as well at the same time. So we were. We were going through that. And so there was. There was a lot going on there. And I was also on my own because I, you know, I was going through a divorce. I was living by myself. I was. You know, there's some security around a family unit in that relationship that you can sort of hide in. And I didn't have that any longer. And so I started having some really bad panic attacks around social anxiety, around. Around meeting people around talking people and dating and all those things, and it got really intense. A lot of, you know, I think that with my brother's situation, the divorce itself, being 45 years old and really facing the shyness, this anxiety socially, you know, it got to a point where it's like there was no ignoring it any longer. It was like, this is. This is here. And it was more than I can really handle. So I met you, found you online, actually, I found you on Audible, which is. I love the, you know, having the Internet Audible and all these resources. It just. It's changing so many lives, and it's just beautiful. It's awesome. So I was looking for something with dealing with social anxiety. Just something like, how is, you know, any answers? What's going on?

Can I ask you a question about the social anxiety real quick? That's kind of like the breaking point, right? Like, it was like, I got to do something about this. You said you were 43 or 45, something like that?

I was 45.

45. Okay. So would you say it had always been there since you were young and you just kind of pushed through, and yet you were. I mean, you were able to create, you know, work in a career and then create a business and get married and have a family and all these. You know, obviously at some point it was reaching its breaking point and it needed to change in terms of your marriage. Right. But. But from the outside, people might look at that and say, well, hey, you know, you're doing pretty good. Like, what was your experience before that breaking point of the social anxiety and how it. How you managed it or worked with it in your life.

Yeah. So I think. I think the social anxiety was. I was able to keep it hidden for a long time, and I think it's because I was able to have friends, I was able to date. I was able to start A business. I think that is because I had some attributes that were helpful growing up. I was athletically, was inclined. I was really good athlete. I could play a lot of sports. And as you know, when you're young, that's real important. It's a big deal. People, especially guys, you know, we compete. And I was always really good, so I was always the first to be picked. I was always on good teams. I was always getting awards. So I was winning right in that arena. And I got a lot of attention with. I had friends, you know, girls who wanted to date me and, you know, some. Not an ugly dude. And those things helped. Right. And so I was able to hide a lot of that, like. And I was. I was trapped inside of all of that. It feels like, in a way. And, you know, those are good problems I have. Right. I'm not complaining, but at the same time, I think I had something going on in me. Shame and other things that I didn't know how to deal with, so. But I had. I think those things helped me just to. To get where I wanted, where I was at at that point in time. At 45 years old and on the outside looking in, people are like, man, your life's great. You're married, you have great kids, you've got a business. You know, all these things are, you know, really look good. But. But I was. I was lost. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know how to really connect with people. I didn't know how to be vulnerable. I didn't know how to feel. I wasn't feeling. I was just doing. I was just kind of a. I felt like somewhat of a robot. And. And so it was a very unconscious life. And I think summed up easily. I just didn't know who I was. So it's a powerful.

Like, I didn't know who I was. An unconscious life. And I feel like that is so common and in some ways, success in whatever term, societal terms, and you can be very unconscious and have a lot of success.

Yeah.

And probably not much fulfillment. I don't think you can have a lot of fulfillment and be unconscious, though. And so. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. I think that's just a really interesting point that I wanted to highlight. So you were sharing about how you got to that threshold moment. It's like, okay, I gotta do something about this. And then you found one of my books on audible. And then. And then what happened?

Yeah. So I'm. I'm. I know I was on Bay Area Boulevard. It was like, 12:30. I mean, I remember this moment so vividly. Vividly. I was. I had the book playing, and you started talking about the. The safety police, the voice in your head. And I immediately got this awareness around, like, oh, my God. Like, that's not me. That's this voice in my head, and it's telling me these things. It's. It has all these stories. And the more I listened to the book, it was like, and you can change those stories. And immediately I just had this rush of, like, adrenaline and hope. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, first it was like, oh, my gosh. This. These are just stories in my head. This isn't me. And then it was second, I was like, so I can do something about this. I just. I didn't have that awareness. And I mean, that was. That was the moment that was like, I knew. I know myself well enough to know if I'm really focused on something, I want it, I'm going to go after it. And I had hope. I had hope in that moment. Like, I can change some of these things. I can shift some of these stories or the way I think or these patterns that I run, and those patterns aren't me. And I had never realized that before. So I got really, really excited. I emailed you and we started talking. We talked several times. And I just really connected with you. I connected with your story. How real. And I felt like you really, you know, this was a. You were very passionate about what you were doing. It wasn't just, you know, it wasn't. You weren't just trying to make money. It was a. It was something. It was a really important to you, and you were authentic about it, and that was. That was a big deal for me. So. Yeah, so that's. That was the beginning. That, that moment, listening to your book and hearing that was the beginning of, okay, like, I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm losing, I'm losing. And I was having panic attacks. So I'm like, oh, let's go. Let's go down this road and see what's going on. And so that was. That was really. I mean, just thinking about it, I get goosebumps because that moment was. It was really, really important. It was a big moment in my life. It was a big shift.

So, yeah, and I think that there's a. There's a drama to that, those kind of moments in our lives. And I think when we're. When we are living the unconscious life, even if it's successful or not, we if the unconscious life is successful, we tend to delay looking for something else. Right. We got to reach a sort of threshold of suffering. And sometimes people find that in nothing, you know, for you. Things started to break down. And that's, I think, very common is. And I think it's actually, you know, it's life shattering the false structures or the false self and saying, hey, something more is possible. But if someone, you know, if everything's going well, someone might. They could still feel a depression or an emptiness or something, you know, their soul calling them. But things. Things started to break down and then there's this like discovery moment that you're describing. And those are powerful and they're. And you know, we can see drama in a movie or a book or a TV show and then feel like our own lives are not that dramatic or meaningful. But. But they are when you go out of that unconscious, numbed out place into like fully alive. And so I love that moment when you're describing it, you know, 12:30, you're driving. It's almost like life kind of rushes in and color starts to come back. And those moments are beautiful. It's like what life is about, moments of liberation. And that was just one of a string of many. And I don't want to take all our time on Blow by Blow of the Past, although it's very fascinating because I want to have time to explore how you see things now and where you're at. Because there's so much growth that I really want to highlight and learn from. But there is one thing I really want to highlight more from the past, just to get a sense of how you saw yourself and how you saw people. But I remember we talked on the phone a couple of times and I was like, hey, we should do coaching. And you're like, whoa, slow down, buddy. Like, I don't know you that well. And I was like, well, come to this event. I think it was one of the very. Maybe the third event I'd done or something. It was third or fourth. It was newer that I'd been doing this thing. And so it was pretty much all men at that point. It was like 20 dudes in a room, you know, in a hotel room. Like, we're going to work on our confidence. And I remember you came to that. And I'm curious, what. What started to. What did you discover there? Or what did you confront there? What. What started to happen as you. As you kind of jumped into this whole new weird world?

Yeah. So I remember, um. And I know you remember this Me saying something like, there'd be going to be a bunch of weird guys there. Um, yes, I'm one of them, of course, you know, which is super cool. I'm glad to be one. But, yeah, you know, making that commitment to go out and go to that, it was. It was a big. It was a big step. And man, the moments there, I mean, I think it was seeing that I wasn't alone. There were a lot of people who felt the way I did, because it's not something I've ever talked to anyone about. This shyness, this anxiety, I kept it all to myself for decades. And I was in a room with 30 or 40 other people that were all feeling the same way. And then hearing your story and feeling and knowing that you had these same feelings and just connecting with everyone else, all their stories and the similarities with them, and going, oh, wow, okay, this is not me. I'm not messed up. This is just part of who I am right now. And so, you know, we did activities, greeting people, getting out there, talking with people, getting uncomfortable, and. And the things we talked about, the patterns, like I mentioned that I heard from the book. And it was, you know, that probably in that whole weekend, that first weekend, the jumping up and down in the. In the room was probably the hardest thing for me to do. And I remember I sat in the very back and I would just kind of like, do this. You know, I was like, this is weird. I can't move my body this way. I'm not supposed to do that. But yeah, it just felt so weird. Think about it now, that jumping up and down felt weird is just a really odd thing to say now. You know, it's like, why can't you jump up and down? Like, you know, show emotion, be happy, be excited. But then it was like, no, someone's going to look at me and think I'm weird and think that's strange. But. So that weekend, there was a lot of stuff like that that was different. Seeing all the people that were, you know, had similar experiences. You know, just emotion in front of other people, doing things in front of people I didn't know that were uncomfortable. That didn't put me in the best light. Not controlling everything, it was. Was really. It was really tough. But it was also. There was some liberation started to happen, started percolating a little bit inside of me and which I. I soon found found out. It started to help me kind of crack open even more when I got back to Houston that the next. The next week, and so I can go into that. It's. Yeah.

What happened? So you said you cracked open more. Tell us more.

Yeah, so this is. I tell this story. It's really. It's really a. It's fun. It's a funny story, and it's, for me, a very emotional story. But when I got back, I went to visit my brother in hospital. He was, at that point in time, he was, I think, about 13 months into fighting the cancer that he had. And he had gone through some pretty serious procedures and taken a toll on him physically. And so I went to see him. I'd spent the weekend in Portland going through all those events, really getting uncomfortable. So I was a little bit shook up from that, and I. I went to see him in the. His. In his room, and I was looking at him, and he was 47 years old at the time, and he looked like he was 70 years old. And I remember looking at. It was the first time that I realized he was going to die. I never accepted that. I always thought, well, they're going to figure this out. That's the way life's always been. Up to this point, I hadn't really had lost anyone that close. And that. That thought turned into. In that same moment, I looked at him and I saw that. I saw what was about to happen. I turned around and looked at myself, and I said, you're gonna die, too. And I think we all know we're gonna die, Aziz, but do we really live? Are we really aware of that consciously, daily? Is it really? What's your awareness around it? In that moment, it was. There was nothing else that I could consider than my death. And I freaked out. I freaked out because I didn't have an answer for it. I didn't. I lost. Like, it was. It was weird. In that moment, I. I lost my identity. I lost, you know, kind of who I was, who I thought I was, what life was, what it was like. All of that was just gone. You know, I grew up in. In East Texas, so there was a very strong religious, you know, element there. And so there's a very clear story about. About, you know, life and God and those kind of things happened in hell and all that. And not that I went to church all the time, but it was still the default story that I had, that I accepted well immediately. That was, for me, was just not reality. And so I had nothing else. I had nothing. I was completely lost. I was like, what is going on? I don't know who I am. And it was more than I could handle. It really freaked me Out. So that, that was, that was this. That was like. I mean, at that point in time, I was really worried about myself. I was really worried about, like, how am I going to. What's going to happen here? And luckily I had just gotten back from your weekend and I had decided to join the Mastermind. And we had a few calls prior to it, starting in April. And I was so excited about that because I just needed to. I didn't know what I needed, but I knew I had that call. And that's. It was the only hope that I had at that point in time to like, hold on to something. So this is the funny part. I was taking my kids to Disney World and we were leaving like that, like later that week. It was spring break, so we're driving to Disney World Orlando. And like, I'm, I'm out of my mind. I don't know. Like, my kids are normal, they're doing their thing, but I'm just like, I'm not grounded at all. I'm really lost. And so we get to Disney World and the next day we were going to have our call. So we're in Magic Kingdom. I'm really kind of out of my mind right at this point. I don't know who I am or what's going on, but I'm in Magic Kingdom. So it was just like, just made it even that much worse, right? I'm like, I don't know what's happening. So my kids are like, hey, I want to go get on this ride. And it's like a two hour wait. And I'm like, yes, please just let me go sit down. And. Because I knew our call was coming up and it was just really weird being there and have that experience. But we got on the phone and I just had to say, I had like, had to tell you what was going on. All this stuff was going on. And that's when you introduced me to the peace process and the meditation. And so we, we did the, we did the peace process right there in the middle of Magic kingdom and like 15 minutes of meditation and filling all this, all these feelings that I was having and just being with it. And I, after about 15 minutes, I felt so much better. And I was like, oh, wow. Like, I never had that kind of shift from having a feeling to getting to another place, moving through it. And so again, I had more. It brought more hope in again. It was like, oh, okay. So. So we're just starting to piece together some things at this point, right? Of this whole process. So, yeah, so that was.

I remember that call. I remember that you being like, all right, this is where I'm at Disney World. And I was like, whatever is there, just do it. And you know what's really interesting is.

That.

Falling apart of your identity and. And. And when you're confronted with death, it seems like such a bad thing at the time.

Yeah.

And yet it is. Like, it's. You're, You're. You're coming into contact with what is more real than all the stuff we focus on and absorb ourselves and all the identity that you might draw from. Whatever. I'm this kind of person, or I like this team, or I do this work, or I have this car or this money, or it's like, you know, when you're looking at the. Your brother about to give it all back, his body, his money, his life, everything. It's like, oh, wow. All that stuff that you think is. You really gets challenged. And then the. But then there's a. Then there's an opening for something new to emerge. So I think that's really profound. And then, you know, it seems like from that point on, you started to. You started down this path, I would say, of more like everything gets stripped away, and then it becomes a more conscious. Right. If it was an unconscious life before, now it's a more conscious path of. Of discovering and choosing, well, who am I?

Yeah.

And then. Well, okay, what matters to me? Okay, well, how do I perceive reality or this circumstance or what people should do in relationships or business? How do I perceive being a parent? And it became this. This. This slow deliberating and discovering and deciding on, you know, who I. Who am I and how do I want to be and what do I want to live? And I'm. And I'm curious in that process, what are some of the things that you've discovered or decided upon about you and what matters to you and even just how to be in life.

Yeah. So to be, I guess, totally transparent about that, I, you know, growing up playing a lot of sports and that being a central focus, I saw myself as a jock and maybe not the brightest. Just kind of. I had a story of I was a dumb jock. I did. I didn't know how to connect with people too well, but. And, But I could play sports, and I was pretty quiet. And to me, that was the dumb jock. And I. So I carried that around. And so anyway, so I started. I started seeing myself. Oh, man, so much. I think. I think it was just slowly, day by day, literally, of just immersing myself. In, you know, through our weekly meetings and books and YouTube and whatever is out there of understanding what was going on with me and then trying to, trying to, I guess, peace, peace, make sense of some of the questions I had in terms of the existential part and then, you know, how to communicate, how to connect with people, how to, I guess so kind of rectify some of those things that I thought were problematic for me and understand them as well. There was a moment after about being in the Mastermind for about. I think it was about eight months in and I'd gone to this yoga class. I started doing yoga and I found that that was a place where I felt pretty comfortable. I didn't have much awareness around it, but the people that I met I could talk to easily and just connect with. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And. But there was one day in particular where I was there and we'd finished the class and I was sitting there and I look around, I was like, these are kind of my people here. These are, these are people that when I talk to them, we talk about kind of the same things and we're, we're kind of, we're looking to learn stuff and grow and we're, you know, it's Saturday morning at 7 o' clock and we're up here doing a workout. You know, we're getting up early doing these things and things I get excited about. And they were getting excited about the same things and we were talking about the same thing, same things that I, there was a sense of like, okay, I really get along with this type of person. So it helped me to understand myself a lot better and see that, I guess somewhat of an achiever type personality, which I didn't have that kind of awareness before. And so that was a big moment and just seeing that and going, okay. Because prior to that I felt like I was trying to please everybody and I would talk to one person and it was a good conversation. I talked to another person and I would get weird looks or they didn't get my jokes or whatever. And then like I turned on myself every time that would happen and, or there just wasn't that connection. It was like something was missing. And I think in that moment with the yoga class I was, I realized that, you know, it's okay that I don't connect with, like, it's just not going to work with everyone. I'm not, I'm not. And we talked about that. You talk about this. I'm not for everyone and not, not that I hold Anything against anyone. It's just that, you know, we're going to hang out with people that just share the way we think, our interests, hobbies, and those kind of things. And it sounds like a simple concept, but I didn't have full awareness around that. And, And. And so that was a real important moment to. To see that. And since then, I've even gone deeper in that, especially with clients in my business or relationships. Dating. You know, there was a time in dating when I was trying to figure out the right things to say that would work for every woman I went out with. And then it was like, oh, wait a minute. Like, I want someone that I can be myself with and connect with, and that's not going to be all of them, and that's okay. So I don't have to really do much more than learn how to be myself so that those kind of. And even with clients, if I have customers that are, you know, just, you know, not quite right for me and for the. How we do business, they want it a certain way, and we do business this way, it's okay to. It doesn't make me wrong, you know, So I think there was a sense of all of these different personalities or these situations with different people. I would always turn on myself and say, you don't know. You're not doing it right. You know, you need. They're right, you're wrong. I was looking for validation from them. And so those moment, that moment in particular, was one where I was able to. To make a shift with, okay, so I can kind of see myself better in who I am. So, yeah, so that was one of them. That was pretty cool.

I think there's something in there, that shift from. I need to be able to connect with everybody. I need to have great rapport with everybody, with all clients, with all social interactions, with all dating experiences. It needs to go well, which generally means that they like me and I like them, and it's smooth and. And that is like a. An impossible goal that you or I, and I know so many other people run. We go for that goal for years and then perpetually fail and perpetually feel bad and say, okay, I got to fix myself so that I achieve this goal. And there's an illusion that if you just get good enough, you will. But actually, the liberation is not to achieve that by becoming so awesome. It's to stop trying to do that and to. And I love what you're saying about the yoga class. And it's like, well, where do you naturally connect with people? Where does it flow easier? And that's really looking at like environment, environmental fit. Where is it just naturally a fix. I remember we talked about, you know, some golfing buddies you had from a certain era, and it was like. And maybe you still golf with them and maybe golfing with them is fine, I don't know. But it's like, are these going to be my, you know, heart to heart brothers? And we're going to share everything, our challenges and our dreams and our vulnerabilities. And it's like, no matter how good you get at sharing that stuff, it might never go the way that you want. It might never be accepted or approved of. And.

Yeah.

So trying to bark up that tree and change, you know, or you talked about certain mindsets maybe in Texas, or beliefs about whatever, religion, society, family, how things should be. And I think we can spend so much energy trying to get other people to be that way that we want or hope for or at least see us and accept us versus like, all right, I guess that's, that's not coming from there. Let me go somewhere else. And that, that, that relief is so profound and really opens up the possibility to create the relationships and the friendships and the client connections and everything that you really want, you know, where you really fit.

Yeah, exactly. And I think the longer I've gone down this path is. Is more really accepting your thoughts, your opinions, how you feel about it. And it may be different than a lot of people that you know, and it may be. It may be something that you can't even articulate all the way through or you don't. It's a. You're working on it. Right. And for it to be okay to. If someone can vehemently disagree with you and. Or maybe a lot of people, or maybe the most. A lot of people around you, and they're just not, you know, they don't see it the way you do. And I think being able to say, okay, that's fine. This is who I am right now. This is, this is how I see it right now. And that's it. There's really nothing else. Like, this is just who I am right now. And not apologizing for that.

So that unapologetic. You, like, there is a. That's not a light switch moment from my. Maybe there is like one final aha. Maybe. I don't know, it seems more like gradual. Like there's this kind of like, I gotta get everyone to like me and fit in with the old. You know, it's kind of like the ugly Duckling story.

Right.

Like, I gotta be a. I gotta be a duck. I gotta be a doc. But you're not. Right. And then, and then there's kind of like a little bit of not caring, but then caring.

Yeah.

And you know, it's like, okay, I feel a little more free here, but why? You know, and it's because it's like over here is not just what that one golfing buddy thinks. It's like they represent the cultural feel that you grew up in that set what reality is or what a good person is or what a smart man is or whatever. And so to do these other things means you're not smart or you're not good or you're not whatever. So how, you know that progress to get to the point where you can casually say to me, with congruence. And I know it's. You're saying it to us, but I know from your life, like, you live this now. Yeah, this is how I see it. And someone else can see it different. Any tips on like, your journey from your journey from there to here? Like, what, what has helped you be able to what I would call own your reality now?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I think, I think immersing yourself in the path of growth and being able to, like, that's. That has become. Since we started that weekend, it became my, My focus, primary focus in life was to. To grow and to increase my awareness, perception of how I, you know, just see life. And so, you know, I would say that if, you know, if you can, if you can figure out what your priorities are and, or maybe the needs and align those. Right. That. That's been a big help. And I was so hungry. I had such a deep hunger to, to continue to grow and get more awareness around these things and get to where I was more confident and I was just felt more alive. You know, I wasn't so small. And so that drove me really, you know, it really drove me hard. And so, But I think it's. There's patience. There's a lot of patience because you mentioned the back and forth and there is that expansion. You try things and then you, you know, when you walk away from it, there's like, oh, no, what did I just do? I just said that thing and you know, whatever. So you have that back and forth, back, and it happens a lot. It still happens, but being able to see that, what it is, that pattern is important as well. Like, okay, so I'm going to do this and that's going to be tough. And I may Contract a little bit and, and we're going to regroup and go expand some more. And so that having some really good people around you, the mastermind group was. And you have been a lifesaver for me, which is, you know, I've been in this group for five years now and it's, it's been incredible. But also some personal relationships that I formed in the group with a few different guys that in some really difficult times of me having some really tough contractions, I was able to pick up the phone and someone is able to sit there and talk to me for, you know, however long I needed to. And I think the more you can do that and if, if you have that hunger and you really want to, you really have the desire to, to, to grow, then I think eventually you're going to, you, you're making progress. You may not see it, but it's happening, right? It's happening internally and there's little things unfolding. And I just began to look, you know, the more you start looking down this road of growth and you start learning, seeing different things more appears for you. You see more opportunity to get a different voice, to get a different perspective. Maybe there's something specific you want to work on, whether it be like maybe dating or maybe just getting more in touch with some emotions in your body or just whatever it is, you know, so you can, you know, if you see opportunities, take advantage of them. You know, I'm going to Tony Robbins events. I've gone to the Sasara events out in Portland, a couple of those, man, a lot radical honesty events like that was. Those are some of the things that I along the way, the books that I've read. And I said okay, I'm gonna go do their workshop. And I did a few of those and I learned, I picked up a ways to different. Like the radical honesty was really good because I. It let me allowed me to say, okay, it's okay for me to be honest about things and it's okay for me to say some things out loud that you know, that I would hold back or there may be some confrontation. And that's okay because the confrontation before was like, that's. We can't do that, you know, so getting some awareness around that then just being able to. It just releases more of that pent up frustration energy or whatever it is. So the immersion of it, you know, the immersion of, of what's out there, there's so much. And going back to the Internet and all the different things we have access to, it's Just amazing. Um, and just, I guess day to day, just, you know, if it's. If it's a high enough priority, then the progress will be there. And so that's been. That's been my formula for. For the growth over the past few years is really. It's not a straight line and it's curiosity. I'm curious about this feeling I'm having when I talk to this person or when I, you know, see whatever it is, something comes up and I'm nervous about it. Why am I nervous? And so who talks about that? Who works on that, who's written a book about that? So let's go read that. Let's go listen to what they have to say about it, and let's dig into that and figure out what's going on. Early on, jumped into some improv classes. So that was really an amazing thing that, you know, if you really want to be seen and work on being more comfortable in that situation, that's a. That was a really, really important part of it. Because even though the first several months I would drive home and I would contract really hard, I would really beat myself up. Like, you know, it was really tough to get through that. But after a while, I guess I became a little desensitized to it. And so the fear, the shame, the embarrassment, all of that that I was feeling, being on stage in front of all these people and really seeing who I was and how I communicated, it lessened. And there are some real shifts that you could feel by doing something like that. I think it can move you a little bit quicker. So. Yeah, man. So that. That's a lot of it right there is just really the immersion. I think it's important. Yeah. To change one.

And I'm curious. I love, I love everything you're sharing, by the way. I'm curious now where you are because you've grown so much and you've been, you know, maybe initially it was like, I got to figure this stuff out because I'm in suffering and things are falling apart. And then, you know, over time, you stabilize you better relationships, you know, really transformed how you are as a father, really, you know, open and authentic and connected and guiding your kids to where now they come to you, you know, with questions and so, so much success. Right. And I'm curious, what. What is that drive now for you? It doesn't sound like it's like, I got to get out of this pain now. There's something else that causes you to keep wanting to do immersions and explorations and what's the next level? And can you speak a little to that? Are you aware of what. What. What calls you or drives you now?

Yeah. So now it's maybe. Maybe a mix of things. I think mastery of a lot of different areas of my life, whether it be financial or, you know, relationships with my kids in the business, all those kind of things. Really understanding. Having a really good knowledge base and understanding of how I want that to go. But there's, I think on a. On a more spiritual level, it is. I have some awareness around, you know, life. The only thing that we have is the experience that we have, how we feel about. How do I say this? I don't even know how to say it sometimes, but we have. We experience life. How we experience life is really the only thing that we have. I think, like, that's what we have. We all this. There's a million things out outside in the world. There's other people. But how we see it and how we feel, going through it is all that we have. And so what. What I'm doing is what I feel like I'll continue to do for the rest of my life is just to try to get more awareness around that with, you know, how to experience that, improve that experience. And so, like, right now, it's. It's having the appreciation for just being alive. Just some simple things, you know, like, the fact that we're even here is pretty amazing if you. If you can pan out from, you know, the job, the family, the kids, the relationships, and just go, wait a minute. You know, like, we're on this ball out in the middle of space, and, you know, there's something inside of this body that gives it life and gives me this awareness about that I'm here. And so that's amazing. It's really amazing that that's even happening. So, you know, I think that I remind myself of that daily. And it's just super cool. So. But there's a. There's an appreciation you get and you're someone in awe of, like, this is really happening. This is a cool thing, right? Instead of being scared of. I think we were scared of that. I was scared of that, even being aware of that. I don't know that we have a lot of awareness around our mortality. I think having that awareness and being reminded of that maybe daily can really give you a pretty good perspective on things. And so. And then it makes it fun. It's like this giant mystery. There's this. I don't know what to call it a game, but it's like, man, there's this thing I get to do, which is life. I get to do this. And, like, it could. There are no limitations. There are no restrictions. And really, honestly, like, nobody knows anything. I mean, we think we know a lot of stuff. We probably do know some things, but it doesn't mean that it's the only way or the right way. So it just kind of. Like there's a lot of freedom in that. And so I feel like there's. There's. If there. If all of that is a thing, if all that's real and it is for me, then I can do whatever. Like, I get to design how this thing's going to go. Like, there's. There is nothing, and I can design it however I want. And it's not right and it's not wrong. I just get to do it according to how I want to experience it. And that's freaking cool, man. Like, that's super cool. And there's so much access now with Internet and people that are willing to share. We can go anywhere, you know, physically, but also just. You're in Portland, I'm in Houston, Texas, right now. We're chatting. I can do this with anyone in the world. It's just. There's so much, man, that you can do. And I'm excited about it. I'm excited about the next thing. I'm taking some acting classes right now just because I want to see what that's about. I've never done anything like that. I'm like, well, how did someone growing up that wanted to be an actor when they were 5 years old? I wanted to be a professional baseball player. And that's all I thought about. Well, there was another kid who was five who wanted to be an actor. He, when he got up, he watched his favorite actor and read about his favorite actor. And I was reading about Pete Rose. And so what is that perspective that he had growing up? What is that like? And so that's a cool thing, is that I can go. You can go and have that experience now, and you don't have to be. It doesn't mean it's not necessary to go have a career in acting. It's just to go through the experience, the growth you get from it, the awareness you get from it. You know, just what you learn, the people you meet. Super cool. Did some comedy writing classes, the improv. Like, you can. You can just do whatever. I like the arts because there's so much expression. And for 45 years, I didn't express very much. And so that's really liberating for me at this point to be able to express, um, how I feel, what I think, come up with something that's fun, make someone laugh. It's. That makes life fun for me, you know. And so we have access to all these different, you know, online programs and teachers and coaches that, you know, they're, they're there so you can go do it. So it's a lot of fun, man. So that's, that's what it looks like for me at this point.

Yeah, yeah. And I love that. And I've seen that a lot. That's been my experience. Sounds like your experience. And I've seen that with a lot of clients, with, you know, when we're in that cage, it's a lot about, well, For X years, 45 years, give or take, for each person, right? It's about how do I preserve safety in the cage. And then at some point the cage starts to break apart or we start to explode. We got to get out of there. And then it's a lot about, like, well, what do I do and how do I achieve this and make that. And then there's this phase beyond that where you're out of the cage and you're out in that wide open field. It's like, where do you want to go now? Should I go that way or that way? What do you want? Isn't there a right way? What does the teacher say? What does the preacher say? What does the dad say? What does the mom like? It doesn't, it doesn't matter. You get to choose. And that, that when you're in cage, that's terrifying, right? That's. But, but when you're, when you've developed the, the confidence and the self awareness, then you get to choose. And so funny. You're, you're sharing this because just this morning, I'm going to pull it up now. My wife texted me. My younger son is five. He's about to turn six in about a week. And he said, he just said this randomly into the car when they were driving today. He said, he said, you know, his older brother is really good at certain things, like building Legos. He's really good at that. And he's like, zaim's really good at building Legos. But me, I was, I was born to, to see what happens. And then he paused and he's like, you know, like when you cook an apple all day long, which he'd done the day before, he'd like taken an apple and put it in A pot and just, like, wanted to cook it indefinitely to see what would happen to it. But I was like, that quote, I was born to see what happens.

That's awesome.

Is very in line with what we're talking about here, which is. Which is perhaps the perspective that comes when we're. When we're free, when you're really free to be you. And that's a freedom that you've fought for, freedom that you've earned and now get to enjoy. Let's see here. Before we conclude today, I've. I've asked you a number of questions and I know also, though you've learned so much, is there anything that I didn't ask you or I didn't touch on that, that you wanted to share or wanted to speak about or thought would be useful for people who are on this journey who maybe aren't out playing in the field? They're like, no, that cultural field seems pretty strong. Anything at all that comes to your mind that you'd want to share?

Yeah, a couple things. The existential part that I shared is something I haven't shared really publicly. So that was. And I felt good to be able to just say that, and maybe it connects with someone and helps them. So that's. That's really cool. And then just the freedom to just go, try, whatever, man, just go do it. And look, I've done a lot of these things gripping my fist really tight and scared and not connected with people while I was doing it. So it's not. It's not as though I walked in there, stuck my chest out and was like, here, I'm here. I'm going to do this. I went in there sheepishly a lot of times. So, you know, it's really. It's really. I think, just do it. And then there's some freedom that comes from it. But I think the two other things that can't come to mind, first it would be with my kids. And so once I started down this journey, I was really excited, which I still am, really excited. But they weren't real excited about everything that I was excited about and didn't understand who dad was. Now, like, you're. What's going on with you? So. But I was like, trying to like, hey, you got to hear this stuff. And they're like, you can see it in their eyes. So I talked to several people about this. Like, what I. What's going on? Because I just didn't know what was wrong is that. Why would they want to hear all this? This is great. And so, but I had several people give me the same advice and it was just be the light was the, the phrase that I got. And I think, I think actually Candace may have said that to me. I was talking to her one time, but. And what that means is, look, just, you know, they're gonna, their kids are watching you. They're, they're, what you're teaching them how to live by how you live. It's not the conversations you sit down for two hours, I mean, those can be helpful. But they're watching how you get up, how you make breakfast, how you watch tv, how you, you know, with everything you do. They're watching that and they're, they're picking that up. And so at that, at that point in time, I stopped all of that and I just continued down my path and just try to love them along the way and be there, be the dad that I wanted to be. And there were some tough times, especially with my youngest, some things she was going through as well. And it was just about, you know, trying to be non judgmental and just being there for her. And over time, as they matured, as they started growing, they started probably hearing and seeing some things that I was talking about or doing in other places. I don't know that for sure, but that's my sense of it. And, but anyway, it all started to come around and I started to have, they started coming to me and talking to me about things or asking me about things. We started having conversations. I started being able to share my journey, what I'm going through. And that was really cool to be able to tell them some of those things. And they started, I think, I think they started to see me as a human being and someone who also had struggles. And it's just opened up a whole new relationship with them. And now. So my oldest, she calls me for, she's 24. She calls me for advice on like day to day decisions. You know, should I buy this? Is that too much? You know, those kind of things, which is super cool, I mean, or relationship. Sometimes my middle one causes to talk to me a better day. She's walking down the street and say, hey man, I did this. And then I went over there and did that. And I was, I talked to my friend and it's, it's really like, it's super cool. And then my youngest, it's a little heavier sometimes. So she's dealt with some similar anxiety socially than I. So we've talked a little bit about that and we do some jiu jitsu training. Together, so we get to have conversations, and. But that's all come together, and I didn't. I didn't force any of that. It just kind of happened. So if you're. If you're someone going down this path and you want to help all these people to get there with you, in my experience, the best way to do that is just let them see you. Let them see what you're. You know, who you are and what you're doing, and that seems to tell the story. So. And the other thing is, you know, I have a business as well, and I didn't know how to run it for a long time, but. But we were still doing okay. I did. You know, we talked about being able to really connect and all those kind of things, and I wasn't do it. I was. I had a picture with, like, a lot of people do of how to run a business. You know, there's the owner and the people that work for them, and they do what I tell them to do. And, you know, and I wasn't mean, but I just. That was it. It was very, very cut and dry. So I started to work on having some better conversations, a little more fun, some tough conversations. I had to let some people go, bring some other people in, learn new ways to train, new ways to run it. And it was an evolution. But ultimately, it was like, I started to develop a way of how I wanted to run my business. And this goes back to, you know, we get to do it how we want. And so I ultimately got to a point where, like, this is how I want to go. It may be ideal. Idealistic to some, but I know when I work for other people, I will. You know, there are some jobs where I had people or bosses that were, I mean, just hard to really get along with. And the job was very. Just didn't have any heart, didn't have any. Is just very cut and dry. And I wanted. I wanted my. My staff to. To come into a place where, you know, they're gonna spend a lot of time there. I wanted to enjoy it and be successful because, I mean, that's. This is their life. They're not just my employee. This is their life. And so I'm like, how can I make this a really good place for them to work so they can. Like, we're set up. Well, we got to do this thing to make money, and if, you know. And so there's passion there too, but it's not always there for everyone in every situation. So ultimately, my thing was like, I want to create an environment where we can. We can grow, succeed, have a good time, and also know who each. Know each other and know and have a relationship that was more than just, you know, have a good weekend. It was more like, hey, who are you? You know, talk to me about it. And so I guess going down this road, I've developed some ability to talk to people and kind of be a counselor to them. And so they come to me with. With things like my kids do. So. And that's. It's. It's been successful. It's worked pretty well. So the relationships are good. So this. My experience is on those two fronts on how I went about it. And. And, you know, there was just to add to the business part one of my salesperson. She is. She's really good and she's. She's tough to handle. She's. She's quick, she's smart. And there was a time when I wasn't equipped to really. I struggled with it. And I think sometimes we say, well, if they're not a match, move on from them. And that may be the case sometimes, but I think sometimes we can also. If there's some, like, with her, it's like, she's a really good person with a good heart. So I'd like. That's what I was looking for. But there was other parts where I didn't understand her, and it was. She was really sharp, and I was struggling with that. So instead of moving on from her, I was like, how can. How can I learn? How can she make me sharper and possibly me make her sharper as well? And so I took probably a year, year and a half of our relationship was me basically analyzing a lot of our conversations and bringing it to people that I know and learning and growing from those conversations and trying to figure out what was really going on and how I can communicate better here and how I can just really kind of get a more confident sense of who I am in that conversation, how to be more honest and open and deal with that, not let it really bother me as much, or, you know, maybe not bother is the word, but, like, make me wrong, you know, in some of those conversations. So sometimes you can use the relationships that may be a little more difficult for you, but they're close relationships to help sharpen you. So I would say before you move on from someone, I would consider that as an option. I found that to be pretty successful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and it's. Your reality becomes. You know, we talked about, like, kind of the cultural field and this is how I'm supposed to be to getting to that place of, well, you see it that way, I see it this way. Now I'm realizing as we're talking, there's actually another level beyond that. My hand goes off the screen for that one, which is like, this is how I see it. And I'm going to create a world around me in which that is so.

Yeah, right.

So this business is a reflection of that. I, you know, I see the point of business is not just to make money, it's also to connect with other humans and have a real contact in real relationships. And so that reality expands to then include other people who want that too. Right. Or else they wouldn't work for you and then your kids, too. Right. It's like, I see parenting is not just like, well, I, you know, take care of your needs, or I mold you into the, you know, citizen that I want you to be. And then it's more like it's a real relationship between two humans and beautiful stories, man. I think it can really challenge some people's ideas of, like, well, your kids get older and then they hate you or they leave or they don't care about you or whatever. And it's like, is that just another cultural default? And actually, if you're willing to do the amount of growth you have and be vulnerable and really be the light, something more extraordinary is possible with your kids in your business. And then your life can become more and more of a reflection of. Of your reality. And all these people willingly, it's not. You're not controlling it all. You know, people willingly participate and that, you know, and it's. You can really simply distill that down to being a leader in life, having a vision and creating that. So, Jeff, thank you. Thank you for sharing so much with us and going to all the different places, including the existential stuff, because I know you said you haven't shared that too openly, but whenever you talk down that route, I'm like, oh, yeah, like, yeah, ball in space. Yeah. Weird. It's like. And. And I think that, you know, sometimes people take psychedelics or have, you know, more intensive sort of like in the Native American, some of the traditions there, they'll. They'll get into altered states through advert, you know, endurance through suffering, whether it's a sweat lodge or a Sundance or something. And so whether it's that path or the ingesting something path, it's like those. All of a sudden, it does pull you out into that different perspective, which, when you get there, you're kind of like, oh, yeah, yeah, why don't we think about that? And it's almost like, it's weirder to not think about that and to just go about in the kind of hypnosis of like, oh, it's totally normal that I look at what did so and so politician said to so and so. Oh, my gosh, that's so messed up. I'm gonna eat this fast food, right? And yeah, you zoom out. Wait, wait, wait, wait. So, like, we evolved from, like, things that came out of the ocean. That's weird.

You know, that's.

That's really interesting. You never think about that one.

So.

All right, my man, we're gonna. We're gonna wrap for today. Thank you again for sharing with us so openly and. And just another demonstration of your confidence to be able to do this interview in the way that you have, with so much authenticity and freedom to be you. So a true pleasure to have you share in this way and know that it's going to really benefit so many people as well as me listening to it and learning from you as always.

Awesome, man. Well, thank you for the opportunity, Aziz, and thank you for the past five years, man, I'm so lucky I met you and was able to be a part of your business, but also your life, and it's been an awesome, awesome, awesome journey. So thank you and thanks for letting me tell part of my story and maybe that will hopefully help some others. So, yeah, awesome. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.

Of course, man.

That brings us to the end of the interview and your time for action.

Time for action. Action, action.

As I like to do with the interview, action steps. I'm going to leave it up to you and say, okay. Jeff shared a lot there. Certain things you might have related to certain decisions or changes he made, maybe even just his level of commitment. One thing that really stood out to me in this interview is his curiosity, his beginner's mind, and this wide open enthusiasm to experience life. And so maybe your action step is to model that in some way or to step into some new class or thing that you're growing in.

Whatever.

That's just one idea, but there are dozens throughout the interview. So the key thing, though, is to decide something right now that you want to implement or do or commit to from this experience that you just listened to and then to go take on that. Go take that action asap. All right, fantastic. Thanks for being with me today. Until we speak again. May have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome. Talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to social confidencecenter.com.