Living With More Confidence And Faith Now with Ben Gibson

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence, first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Welcome to today's episode of the show. Today, I'm excited because it's not just me talking at you. I have one of my good friends and colleagues here, Ben Gibson, who has worked with me for a number of years in confidence coaching and also his own work with people. That is especially why I want to talk with him today about this topic, which, you know, we talk a lot about confidence in this show. Self confidence, belief in yourself, how to step into the unknown, have more courage, knowing you can handle things, which is super useful skill. And there's another domain of confidence which I'm especially excited about right now. I'm working on my next book called Doubtless, which is really diving into this. How do you believe in yourself and also trust in life? And that's what I want to focus on in this episode, is that trusting in life piece. And the goal behind Doubtless and this conversation with Ben is I want to have that, that pathway to trust, faith in life, in something bigger, in the divine. I want to have that accessible to everyone. It doesn't have. You don't have to have a certain religious perspective or, you know, this, you, you could have this if you're an atheist. Because the goal is, I found that there's a limit to self confidence and that there's always something in that unknown that can make it seem threatening or scary or problematic until we develop this other side of things. Maybe call it spiritual confidence or something, divine confidence, whatever you want to call it. And so I, Ben, is the man to talk to about this. So thank you so much for being here, Ben, with me and all of us.

You're welcome. Hello, everyone. Dr. Aziz.

So let's, let's start with that. Having faith in something bigger. Now, some people grew up in a religious household. I know you did.

That's me. Yes.

And I grew up in a. In a household that was sort of, I don't know, religious in culture. I'd say my dad was a Muslim and we kind of did the cultural things of his heritage from Pakistan and Muslims. So we went to the eastern Eid prayers twice a year and did certain things around Ramadan and fasting. But it was, it was more of these like cultural practices, but they weren't. There wasn't a whole, any sort of teaching of exploration, of reflections on the spiritual side of things, faith, connection with, with God or divine. So I kind of grew up with an absence of that. And I think a lot of people listening to the show might have that experience. But there's also people who grew up in a religious upbringing who still don't feel that much faith, right? They're like, I should believe and I'm supposed to. There's a lot of rules in there, you know. So I want to start with that is from your experience, your perspective, what is that, that faith in. What does that mean to have faith in something bigger? What is it for you?

I love this topic so much, Dr. Z's. And it's funny because I feel like in my work with others and just conversations, even with others, I laugh about this particular kind of question because I continually experience how inexpressible these things are. I was literally thinking about this just earlier today, this morning. That spirit is really not containable by the mind. The mind cannot contain what spirit is. It's undefinable. And the best I can possibly hope for. Much to my chagrin and much to the chagrin of others, much to the chagrin of my younger self who was, I remember just searching and searching and, you know, silently screaming. Somebody just defined this for me. And I slowly came to the realization that I was asking for the impossible. I wanted somebody to explain with words to my conscious mind, what is infinity like? Just tell me the formula to. So that I can also completely contain and grasp what infinity is. And it's, it's, you know, it's an understandable request and unfortunately, request denied with. But there is it. What I realized through some very interesting experiences was that like the, the mind is. It's like a. Something two dimensional that is. And the spirit is like three dimensional. And the mind is trying to say, well, just give me all of the, you know, tell me all about three dimensions using two dimensional constructs and, and frameworks. It's like, you can't, you can't do that. Tell me how to, tell me how to get to the moon. Just using north, south, east and west. It's like, okay, the best you can possibly do to comply with that is, I can give you directions to the rocket launch pad and how to get onto the rocket.

Yeah. Well, that's really interesting because I would agree with all of this and then that, you know, some listening might be like, well, what the hell am I going to get in this episode? You can't explain it.

And I think might be able to point you in the direction of the launch pad. Right.

You know, that's the benefit for this. And it does seem like the. And for me, the launch pad was. Experiences.

Yeah.

And so you can't get it in. It's ironic. We're talking about. On a podcast, talking about a book about it. Yeah.

Which is all, you know, teaching mental.

Words, language to steer you towards this. Because there is something. And if you. Those books, those podcasts can help you get to the launch pad, because otherwise you might say, well, there is no launch pad, so why look for it? Or, I don't know how to get there, but this can help. And. And the experience is. I find that any experience that helps me access a deeper sense of trust or faith.

Yeah.

Generally they're. They're not like rapturous, just purely bliss. They're actually full experiences that might have moments of breakthrough insight, love, bliss, openness. But usually those moments are mixed in with. Right. You know, few minutes after moments of pain, despair, confusion, questions, uncertainty. And so something.

Even disconnection, even like loss.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you get to see. Because this is another one of those things that the. That in the mind and Taoist and other things kind of point and play with this a lot. Zen does this too, about dichotomies. Right. Night and day. You don't have one without the other. Which, when I heard that stuff when I was younger, I was kind of like, okay, what's. So what? Why is that even interesting? And now I realize something like that confused, that disconnection. It's like that deep sense of connection. Forget about, you know, something bigger than ourselves. Let's talk about just between two humans, like, in order to feel this profound merging, you know, this sense of, I love this person. I'm one with this person. I need this person. We're that you. You need to have experienced or sometimes experience aloneness, the fear or the isolation, the disconnection. And you can't have the connection without that. I think sometimes people try to use confidence or faith as a way to not feel the bad stuff. And. And yet it seems like the bad stuff is part of what helps us launch.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Again, much to our chagrin, yeah.

Set this up. Anyway, I didn't sign up for that.

But it's funny because it's. Without one of the. One of the things that I have slowly come to and I'm still developing. I don't know if this ever stops, but it's. It's like without the. Without the trial, then I've got it together. There is no need to grow. And there. There's even a. So many things I want to say right now. So in that moment of, of loss or disconnect where I feel like I'm not going to survive, even there's. That part of us is feeling that way. There is this. If I. If I do have any belief in life within me, then I will instinctively reach out for something beyond what I already know. In those moments of despair, of I'm at the end of my rope, I don't see the path forward if as long as there is this like. But I gotta. There's. There's got to be something. I got to find a way in that moment is a reaching out to something beyond my current awareness, my current capacity. And those are the moments that forge heroes. And it's interesting that in the Bible there is a reference to a term heroes of faith. And this is where faith comes in. Faith is the belief in something that I don't see. And it's not just a hope or like a wish. Faith is this concrete. It's almost like a tangible of an intangible. It's a. I know. It's a deep inner knowing. And the funniest part about this is this kind of knowing doesn't come from information or logic or reason or data. It comes from choice.

Could you put into words as best as possible, like as if it's a. You know, it's a signpost rather than. Than the thing put into words. What is it that you know with faith? Like, that was the knowing of faith.

Uhhuh. I know that there's a solution. Out there. It exists to the problem I'm facing and I have no idea how to get to it or what it is. It could be something very surprising, something I never would have come up with or thought of on my own. But I believe with certainty that the solution already exists and that I can access it somehow.

Yeah.

The funny thing about this is I. I learned a portion of this lesson really early in my career. I worked in it and still do it, technical work, because I love it. And it was. I started in my. When I was 18. No, 17. And I remember realizing something about Computers and technology. I realized, you know what? Somebody made this thing that's broken now. This thing isn't working. This computer is malfunctioning. But someone somewhere made this and someone somewhere knows how it's supposed to work. And so someone somewhere would be able to see what I'm facing now and understand where it's going wrong and be able to guide to or suggest or tell about the solution for this. So even though I'm stymied, even though I'm facing something I've never faced before, I don't have experience with this. There's a certainty that a solution already exists in reality somewhere. So now it's just a question of me finding it.

Yeah.

And from then on I remember going into all kinds of, you know, technical help requests with that certainty. I don't know when I'll find it. I don't know if I will find it within the time needed. But I know that I can approach the problem with confidence because a solution exists somewhere.

Yeah.

Most of the time I can find it. Yeah. I love.

There's a phrase I like to use that really captures what you're saying, which is every problem has a solution.

Yeah.

I really do that think that's true. And then. But sometimes people like, well, hey, you know, there's certain things now some might say, well death, death is a problem. Doesn't have a solution. Not yet. But. But actually if you think about it, there's so many ways the reason the mortality, the lifespan is so long now compared to many years ago is because they've solved a lot of the problems that would kill you. So many things now that I know people in my life who've gone in for treatments or procedures or things like they would have died 30 years ago, 50 years ago. Yeah, like that. But nothing we can do for you. So. And, and though I feel like sometimes the solution is also or could be acceptance.

Yeah.

So what is. Right. And then. So there.

And that's the unique. Yeah, those are the.

That is this.

Sometimes the solutions that I would not have come with on my own. The it's a solution I wouldn't have thought was even us considered as a solution, but truly is.

Yeah. But you only find that or experience that when you start with this faith. Now the interesting thing though about every, you know, every problem has a solution that could be put into the frame of self confidence. Right. I'm going to find the solution. And there's nothing wrong with self. I mean that's a huge theme of this show. It's great yeah.

Yes.

And when people hear the word faith, they often imagine or think there's, you know, faith in often for some people, a lot of people, it's a God. Whether they call it God or the, you know, new age rebrand that I've grown up with, which is universe, Universe, you know, which has, it's removed some of the, it's like John Kabat Zinn taking Buddhist meditation and calling it, you know, mindfulness based stress reduction. It's like, yeah. Take out the stuff that might be culturally or the rules are conflicted baggage.

Or the misconceptions or the accumulation of so the universe.

And you know, when people talk about the universe, it's usually perceived as kind of a non judgmental force. And, but, but there is kind of a way that people put faith in it or listen to their intuition or the whispers of that destiny through the universe. And, or for some people, God. I mean I, I had a, I talk about this in doubtless I had a, a big negative connotation towards God for a number of years of my life. I'm an atheist and it was really just coming from a lot of.

You're not alone with that.

Yeah. Well, it, it comes, it was, for me it was born. Well one, there wasn't like a strong seeds planted. But then two, there was also a pain, a physical pain for me that was chronic and I did not perceive there was a solution.

Yeah. Yeah.

And in that moment, in those moments when you really.

You were told, you were outright, explicitly told by experts, there.

Is no solution, that didn't help. And there's a, you know, that certainty of every problem as a solution you were talking about that, that can provide this upward, forward, expansive. You know, it feels good to think that. To feel.

Yeah.

But then you can, there can be. And this is where I think it's fascinating.

Even if I'm wrong, my quality of life is still improved.

Yeah.

By holding on to that belief totally.

Your actions are definitely enhanced and your, your morale is higher.

Yeah. My experience of failure on the path toward this inevitable success are like the, the, my experience of those failures isn't crushing and demoralizing. It's, it's like, okay, that one didn't work, let's keep going, let's try another one. Let's you know, check in. Let's, let's, let's, let's try, you know, adjust and try again.

Which is, and there's this, there's like.

A.

The absence of that faith is off people, I think and I explore this in doubtless it's, it's not. Doubt is not necessarily a questioning. People can use the word that way.

Right? Yeah. Right.

Say, I'm not sure. I doubt that. Well, I think that's like a useful thing to question things and be curious. But when people often are experiencing, we might call doubt, it's actually an inversion of faith. It's an. Is actually in an opposite direction. It's saying, there is not a solution.

Yes.

And there's an anger and a hurt and a bitterness and maybe an F you in there. That's what I felt when I was in all that pain. And then, you know, where do you direct that pain? Who do you blame? Well, I unconsciously blamed life. God. You know, you're. You're. You don't care about me. There's nothing that cares about me. I'm utterly alone was like the core conclusion. And so that was with the universe and all that stuff, but it was also with God. And it was only through a number of experiences on the launch pad, going up where I was in these ceremonies, where people were singing and hymns and things about God and at first being like, I hate all you, and then being like, what is this really? Isn't this a beautiful pathway? You know? And I was able to soften and heal a lot of that stuff. But let's get back to this idea of faith being something beyond the self and you could have faith in other people. Like, someone out there knows the it solution to this.

Where.

What about. Because a lot of people will feel like, oh, I'm guided by God, or want to feel that way or have a connection with the divine.

What.

How would you. Where does that fit in with this?

First of all, I love what you said about the distinction between questioning and the doubt as an inversion of faith. Because there has to be that. That availability, the openness, the. The almost the question, what is there? Maybe there is. And I'm, I'm. I guess that I'm okay to, to explore or experiment or experience something. I'm open to it. I'm open to it. That opening is a crucial aspect of this. I'm at a loss for words in this moment, but it's that. That, that readiness to believe that there is something beyond is crucial.

Yeah. Yeah. And what can bring us to that? I think there's. For me, there was a. There was a lot of pain. And then kind of a. You know, we sometimes deal with pain by. Instead of collapsing underneath, we get harder and maybe separate from it. And so there was this kind of separation from God and Then by extension like thinking everyone who is religious and everyone who had this connection with faith was kind of stupid. You know, it's like, oh, I'm separate than that and maybe a little bit of sour grapes in there. Who doesn't want to feel more connected and guided and like there's a divine force loving me. But I think even if people don't have that pain that I did to create that major rift, I think one obstacle to faith for people is a mental, you know, educated scientific, materialist culture that we many people in the world now grow up in. That's kind of like, hey, I don't, I, I, it sounds nice, but that's wishful thinking. You're being fooled by randomness here, right? You're just looking into it and you're dreaming into it.

And it's very, picking data and you know, basing it on anecdotal evidence.

And some people might be like more hardline with that. Like, yeah, that's, and here's why I'm, that's wrong and that's dumb. And other people are kind of like, I want to feel more faith. I want to feel like there's something guiding me. But is there? How do I, and I think that's what I'm really fascinated in helping cultivate is something that I've been cultivating for a number of years and curious to help others in that path. And how do we find our way to that? As you said, we started this conversation with, it's like, well, it's not just like here's a bumper sticker, read that and you got it.

Yeah, here's, here's a trite aphorism that will take you there. Yeah, no, it's, but it's, it in that openness, in that willingness is a willing is, is like okay, I, maybe there is something more. And without that when I have that, the certainty that there isn't anything more, then the problem then is that I will in unconsciously and consciously I will turn away all the data points that indicate that there is something beyond. Like my, my beliefs shape or are self reinforcing beliefs are always self reinforcing beliefs. They, they, they, they mold the data. They, they shape how we process data that is constantly streaming through our consciousness. Our beliefs determine what we prune away and what we hold on to. And so when I believe with certainty that there is nothing else, it's just me and then I, that's all I will ever see. Whereas with the openness, okay, you know, that's, I, as far As I understand, as far as I have been able to process the data so far, it seems to be that it's only me. But okay, maybe there's something else. I'm willing to be convinced.

Yeah.

I'm willing to be sold to or, you know, not naively, because that's where that certainty of. Nope, all those people are stupid. God doesn't exist. It comes from a protective mechanism that. I don't want to be duped. I want truth. And when I believe that religion equals being duped and faith or spirituality or doubtlessness equals religion and religion equals being duped, then, you know, I'm going to sit alone in my own little protected cave and be mopey my whole life.

And superior, too.

And superior. All those fools. Yes.

Not duping me.

Yeah. But like, I would just want to recognize that desire to, to not be duped, to not be fooled again, you know, and it's a normal. Good. I, you know, I think that's.

I agree. I think there's a healthy level of questioning.

Yeah.

You know, the, the, the riding between their skepticism and then there's cynicism and.

Yeah.

Cynicism might be permanently closed off without even questioning, whereas skepticism might be. Well, show me more. Let me see.

Because if this is truth, truth is something that doesn't change or go away. Truth lasts. Truth is eternal. I. That's how I think of it. If something is true, then it is true, and it's not. I guess there may be different levels of truth. Some people talk about. My truth is different from your truth. And I just think of those as perspectives. Or like, this is my experience.

And your experience calling it my truth really elevates it, doesn't it?

It does. It elevates it into that realm of I'm superior or this I'm certain.

It's like, yeah, you can't challenge me or invalidate my truth.

And some people, And I recognize some people who've experienced a lot of trauma around gig being gaslit, especially as a child or something like that.

They need that. They need that.

That's important. It is part of the recovery. Yeah. To assert that sense of self as being distinct from others.

Well, calling it my truth without being separate, though, brings in validity to the perspective.

Yeah.

I feel like it's like a. It's like.

And when your perspective's been invalidated a lot, it's. You need that. You need that.

And. But there is something beyond that. It's like there is development and then as your, as your self confidence and assertiveness and, and authenticity develops. Like, at this point, I will say, oh, here's a perspective. Here's. And you can say it. This is what I think. This is what I perceive. But I'm also. I hold it a little more lightly. Like there's other perspectives.

Yeah.

And. But that strengthened it enough. It's kind of like the existence of other ones or someone else being more certain means you. You can't have one. So I think that that truth.

I just want to make that distinction there. I think that's great around the concept of what truth may be or what truth is.

But. And there's, you know, there's. With this stuff, you can't. There's no. Put people in the categories and things in the categories and say this is. That way religious people or Christians or Muslims, like, that's. You're talking about like a billion humans so much. It's almost such a broad category. It's like, does that even mean anything? Right.

There's so much diversity and variety within that.

Yes. And I think that there's. There's people who are religious and not that. Not that spiritually connected, and there's people that are spiritually connected but don't practice any particular religion. And, And I think some of the fear of being duped, at least for me, came from. There's certain. In every religion, there's certain people that I think, from my perception, are prioritizing. It's like a sense of certainty that's built on a lot of what to me feels like blue level consciousness and the spiral dynamics, like a, Like a rigidity. Here's the rules. Here's what this is. And how do you know that? Well, you know, the Bible says. Or the, the text says. And again, nothing against the text. It's more. But, but did, did, did you read it? Did you interpret it? Did you read all of it? Did you look at. It's like, no, but someone told me that this is what it said. And. And that's that. And so I think there's. But that's not all people of a particular religion. Right. There's also. There's all these things, but I think sometimes that's what I, I would bump into that and be like, oh, I don't know if I want that kind of faith. That doesn't. That feels not like truth to me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's. There's like a. There's like a layer of fear there that I perceive.

Right. Because there is a lot.

I can't question anything. And I just want to. I Want to. And I think, what, what, what. This is kind of a. Maybe it's an immature faith or a. It's a wishful thing that we all have. I think deep down, every human wants to not have pain. At some level, we're scared of pain. It's hard. I don't want it now. I don't want in the future. And so I think sometimes we try to use f. Faith. I certainly have as, like, well, if I. If I. And you could use it in two ways. Like, if I'm. For some people, it might be like, if I'm good, then I'll be protected and rewarded. Yeah.

Yeah.

And for me not being in that frame, it was more like the, you know, new age. Like, if you're in fl. If you're manifesting properly, if you're in harmony with universe, good things will happen to you, which is kind of like protected.

Yes. And then. And there's a subtle. And there's a subtle implication that it's only good things, you know?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Don't give me any bad.

Yeah.

Give me only good and don't give me any bad.

Yes. For those who don't know that, Ben is singing a song that Candace, my wife, sang to me one time. We were sitting out on. On our. On our deck, and I was. We were talking, kids were gone. We had the afternoon to ourselves. And we're just looking out at the forest. It was beautiful. And instead of feeling joy, I was feeling anxiety. I was going through a big change in the business, and there was uncertainty. And in that void of unknown, there's a part of my mind that was like, death ruined, downfall. Enjoy your funeral. You know, so. And we were exploring. It's like, what am I so afraid of? What am I so afraid of? And. And then eventually it was kind of like this bad thing and that bad thing and this bad thing. And so she just started singing. She's like, give me the good. Don't give me any bad. You give me that good, you take away your bad. And she had this, like, sassy little voice as she did it. And I just laughed because I was like, that's how I'm relating to life. And. And I think that's a misunderstanding or misuse of faith. I think it's trying to put something that is so beyond the mind into a very human frame.

Yeah. So one. One of the things that comes up for me is, I guess to close a loop that I alluded to earlier. There's a. There was a passage from. From the Bible in psalms that came to my mind before I was afflicted, I went astray. But now I obey your word. That's the whole.

What is. What does afflicted mean?

What does afflicted mean?

Right now it.

It's essentially feeling pain in some way or another, and it's this.

Like this pain or suffering.

Okay. Yeah.

Okay, so say. Say it again then.

Before I was afflicted, before I felt bad.

Before the bad.

Yeah, before the bad. And in other words, like interpretations of this word, it's. It's. Before I was disciplined or corrected, then I was. I was. I was wandering away. I was off. You know, off the. Off the. Off the path. Going astray, whatever you want to call it. And going astray doesn't mean. Well, now you're disobeying the rigid rules that we have arbitrarily set up. It's. The deepest sense of this is. I was like, really? You know, not. Not in a functional mindset. Not doing. Not living life in a way that. That continually brings more capacity, strength, joy, and love. True, deep love and connection and growth and contribution. It's like I was holed up in my own little world thinking that every. I was perfect already. But now I've come up into a situation where I'm finding I'm not perfect. Ah. What, they're bad? No, I just have some more growth to do. That's all. This is here for my best. It's not that I was even bad before, necessarily. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But there's more to come to. My office looks out into a small orchard in my backyard. And in the springtime, there are flowers on some fruit trees that we have. And the flowers, in the springtime, those beautiful blossoms are there for just a few short days before they fall away. And, you know, while they're there, they're really beautiful to look at. And when they fall away, it kind of feels like a loss. It's like, oh, the flowers are gone, but okay, what's coming next? The cherries come after the flowers go. The apples start to ripen when the apple blossoms are gone. Like there's something beyond the thing that might have been great and even functional up until this point. And when it falls away, there may be a feeling of loss or sadness, but it doesn't mean that it was wrong when it was there. It doesn't mean that this experience of loss is bad. It just means there's a bigger process happening here.

Yeah.

That, you know, from the perspective of the apple blossom or the Tree I don't even understand because I've never gone through this before. And like, if I know if I take another perspective and then an outside one, and I'm coming to the tree expecting, okay, where's the apple? And I come in the springtime, I'm like, well, that's a stupid apple. I'm coming here to this apple tree expecting apples, and I'm getting is like this flower. From a cynical perspective, I might be able to. I might say, well, that's a stupid apple. That's a bad. You know, this is a worthless apple. What is it doing? Stupid thing. Well, it's not stupid. It's just in the process of maturing. And I may come later on in the summer and have this little tiny, little green, bitter, sour, like, chalky thing if I ate it. Think that's a bad apple? Well, no, it's not. It's just not fully ripe yet. There's still some process happening here, and the process is all okay. And when the process has run its.

Course.

Then there will be this. This thing. And that is part of faith is trusting in something. Like from the, from the apple blossom's perspective, it has never experienced before. It doesn't know what's coming up. And yet all the things that are happening, the sun and the rain and everything that's. That's going on is in service of producing something better, different than I have ever been or experienced before.

Yeah. Yeah. And I. In what you're describing there, I think about the, the term divine timing.

Yeah.

Which I find I. That's a good reminder for me or access point for me. And because I think that we can want what we want now or when we want it or, and, or. Or have that response like, this shouldn't be.

Yeah.

And there's so much suffering in that. That this shouldn't be. And, and it's on top of whatever feeling there might be of sadness of the flowers changing or, you know, when we face, I think the bigger losses in life, there can be more intense sensation, more intense feeling. And then we're like, well, it's almost like we have a switch inside that's like a certain amount of loss or feeling is like, okay, I can. It's like a upper capacity threshold of surrendering to it. Allowing.

Yeah.

Seeing the divine time, it's like, oh, yeah. Divine the flowers. Oh, yes. Oh, I didn't get that work opportunity, but I can see that. Yeah.

There are certain areas of life also.

Yeah.

By the way. That we're more sensitive to or. And less Sensitive to where we feel more pain. Yeah. Where we feel more or less.

The pain reaches a certain level and it's like, forget all those ideas. This is wrong. And I've experimented. I've seen that in myself and observed it happening and being like, wow, okay, I want to practice surrender here. And then I would do this. It was almost like a pseudo surrender where I'm telling myself the way to perceive it, but emotionally, if I'm honest, I'm suppressing, I'm upset. And so I learned, oh, surrender is actually to also surrender to my reaction to the thing and let that run its course too, which is like. But I want the surrender to be like the fast track solution to make the pain go away. It's like certainty 2.0. I can't control out there, but if I can surrender fast enough, then I can control in here. And I always feel great. No matter what happens, no pain. Bam. It's like that solution was airtight until it doesn't work.

Until it wasn't. I'm surrendering. And I was still in pain. Surrender harder because I'm still in pain. Oh, no. Surrender to the pain means actually surrender to the pain.

Yeah. And when you do that, I think it's kind of dredged up with that pain. Because pain is not just a. You know, if someone cuts their finger, there is a pulsing, biting, stinging sensation. And maybe it's just that with the finger, but you could also feel fear. You could feel fear of loss, of the use of it. You could feel angry that it happened. But then when you have other types of pain, especially emotional pain, it can really dredge up all sorts of things. Confusion, disillusionment, disconnection, unfairness, questioning of faith in life. And, And I think that surrender is not like a short circuit to avoid all that. It's this letting. I think of it as sediment that just gets stirred up. And that's the, that's the practice that I keep coming back to, is letting it. And. And then I always come back and just kind of smile and laugh at myself. It's like, wow, that I. That secret desire to be exempt from pain or have just the right. It's what a thread that's been in my life, whether it's studying psychology or coaching or NLP or spirituality. I mean, they're all beautiful, amazing tools and perspectives to learn and have. Useful for me in my life and clients and stuff. But then there's also this sort of secret quest for the, for the, you know, the Holy Grail. I'm just going to be. And I think it's just a maturing in me to see over these years. It's like, oh, you know, it's, it's going. I'm going to feel a lot as my parents age and die. And.

Yeah.

Things happen in life or, you know, the, the vulnerability of things that could happen to people that we love. Like there's, there's feelings.

Yeah.

And, and the more that we can. I can just truly allow that, the more peace there is. The peace doesn't mean an absence of pain.

No.

It's been a big learning for me.

And, and it, but it's, it's, it's again this trust and belief and faith that even in this intensity of feeling, I can handle it. How am I going to handle. I've never handled this much before. I've never been through this before. Okay. But I choose to reach into something beyond past experience and place my trust in that unseen, invisible something, God, universe, future self, who like something that my mind does not comprehend. That's ultimately what faith is, is believing in something the mind I have not experienced yet. And I love what you said earlier. I mean, going back to something you said earlier about we are all doubt is just another version of faith that, that certainty kind of doubt. We are constantly believing something. We are constantly moving into an unexperienced future. Every moment of our life is a new one. We are constantly moving into the unexperienced future. And therefore we are constantly believing in something. And that. So it's not a question of whether or not I believe. It's truly a question of what am I choosing to believe.

Yeah. And you know, he talked about truth and, and perspectives. Right. And there's, I think, our common perspectives, the familiar perspectives. Those we don't. We might not know that that's what we're believing. That's just the normal frame. Like the way like you don't, however you sit right now at the computer, there's a certain way you can sit where you don't really pay attention to how you're sitting. It's like you're in a normal way of sitting. And then if I were to say, okay, you know, sit up straight, roll their shoulders back, have great posture at the computer. You're like, whoa, feel my back muscle. Like I'm noticing that now. And I feel like that's how it is with our perspectives. And so if we have a default perspective of mistrust, of either mistrust of ourselves, a perceived incapability in a certain area or A mistrust of life. Like a. And these are perspective. I really love David Hawkins work where he maps out the scale of consciousness and specifically the, the world view and the God view, like how you see the world and how you see the divine at a certain experience of consciousness. And that was like, oh, that is so true. Like, if I'm fearful, I perceive life as threatening, as dangerous, and God maybe as punitive or potentially just indifferent. Like, I don't care about you, so now I'm on my own. And, and that perspective might be a familiar lens. So it's just like your normal posture and you don't even notice it. And then when you try on a new perspective, it takes like conscious choice or effort to like, okay, this other thing. And it might. That's not, that's not true. I don't know if that's true because the other one feels more true. It's familiar, but it's, it's all you're. You believe in something. So I think that's a really, really good point, Ben. And, and in questioning what is. And that's a great question is like, what am I? How am I perceiving life? How am I perceiving the divine? How am I perceiving myself right now? And just examine those. And, and this is where. I don't know where this falls into absolute truth, but I know that when it comes to human psychology, functional truth is. So I found valuable. And like you talked about earlier, if I believe every problem has a solution, it's like adaptive for me. And, and so yeah, so there's. There's like a functional truth. It's like, okay, is. Is believing that life's indifferent or that the world is threatening functionally useful to me? It's a. Well, that's how it is. Do have every scene how it is? Is it. Is it. It just one thing. Whatever. It seems pretty pre to me.

And again, I like functional truth. I see. I see or experience that as. Whether or not the words are accurate. It is true. Like every problem has a solution is so functional because even if I'm wrong, as I said before, it is a solution. Like just the mindset itself is a solution. It is a, a functional way to go through life. And, and I recognize too there can also be some dysfunctional applications of this universal truth. Like if I'm holding on to this problem has this type of solution and we do this unconsciously. That's the, that's the real kicker is.

Only looking at a certain narrow area.

Yeah.

We tend to what the solution is going to look like. This is what the solution is. I know what the solution is because.

So for me, I want. Yeah, so for me, it. Going back to the. The metaphor of technology or the. The example of technology. There were times when I was working on something and you know, there's going to be a solution to this. There's got to be solution to this. And I was fixated on, I can repair this problem. I can bring this, this computer back into a functional state and eventually, maybe. Maybe a little too long later than would have been optimal, but eventually come to the realization that, oh, the best solution for this is actually to just buy a new computer. Because what's the real thing, the real problem, the real desire, the real goal wasn't, you know, of the person who was using the computer wasn't actually to get to use this computer. It was to have a machine that would support them in doing the work that they needed to do. And I was fixated on a. On a more smaller. Yeah, you know, understanding of the situation I was fixated on. This computer has to get back into a functional state, whereas the real perspective that was more functional was this person just needs a tool to do their work. What would be the best way to do that? And that solution was very different than the ones that I was seeking out and kind of going around and around trying to find. So, yes, there was a solution to that problem, but I was kind of misapplying or applying that in a limited perspective. And again, that my. My desire. One of my desires of expressing this example is this is so often what this spiritual faith does. It. It leads to these innovative solutions that are on a different plane or a different level than where I was operating on before.

Yeah.

So one, one other. If I can give another example of this sure happened. This is very real and raw for me because just happened this morning. This is related to a conversation you and I had earlier. Aziz. I was. And this relates to fear and loss and those sorts of experiences of life too. Somebody in my life recently communicated to me that they didn't want to communicate with me anymore. And my perspective on it was, oh, they're going through some stuff. And I, you know, I value the. The relationship. And I felt like maybe something I did or said was the cause of this desire for. For separation. And my default. I'm a fixer. So my default response is, okay, how can I fix this? What can I say in response that will, you know, convince them otherwise and bring them back? And, and it can be better than Ever. Because that's also how relationships work. Whenever there's a rift, then you can, you can, you can fix it. And, and the relationship's better than before, which is a lesson that I have learned and I have applied many times. And in this particular instance, as I was, my mind was scrambling through, okay, what, you know, how basically I began to realize I was seeking how to manipulate the other person into doing what I wanted so I wouldn't feel pain and loss. And I realized like, oh, my lesson was I need, like, my lesson for me right now is I need to, to really, truly surrender and, and let this go. Not try to manipulate and, or, or fix this thing or apologize the right way so that they feel better with me again. It's, it's. My lesson is I, I need to honor their request and truly, genuinely let them, you know, just release. And, and as I was recognizing this, then I remembered a. I don't know, there are some thoughts that came to me which were, sometimes people don't want your help. Even when you think you are helping or could help. I don't have to twist their arm into accepting my help. I have to let them go. And if they let them go on their journey and if they are experiencing problems or trouble, let God work with them. Outside of my awareness, I am no longer the agent.

Yeah.

And there's like, but, but that doesn't feel good.

That's not the solution that I.

That's not the solution.

Right, but.

But in.

That is the solution.

Yeah. And, and what I experienced, and literally it's just, it's very. Still assimilating for me. But what I experienced was, oh, like, this is my trust. This is elevating my trust in the divine. Can I believe that God can provide their solutions without me being a part of that provision, without me ever knowing what happened? Like, I see them in pain, I don't want them to be in pain. That's just, you know, one aspect of my personality is I like to help and fix. Okay, but can I, can I surrender and trust in something bigger and greater and beyond me and trust that the world is going to continue merrily onward and maybe better without my meddling in this particular instance?

Yeah. Well, and this, I think highlights. Thank you for sharing, by the way. And, and it highlights that I, I think. And we'll spill maybe the last thing and then we'll wrap. I. There's a way that we want to use faith as a shield. And one of those ways is, oh, it's gonna, you know, protect me from Bad things. And I'm not gonna have pain. And another way is like, I just want it to be this solid thing that I hold on to. And it seems like that solid, you know, that solid shield. It. Something like this happens. And it doesn't. Just kapwing off the shield where someone says, I don't want to talk to you anymore. And we're like, well, I have faith that they're gonna find that, you know, God's gonna take them and they're gonna learn their lessons and it's fine. You know, like, we. That's kind of the fantasy I've had as they get to that level of almost invulnerability. And it seems like just the stuff in life gets in, you know, and we got. It's like the growth process is that churning. And some of these reflections over the last couple of days and some of the discomfort of it and noticing the fixing part and this and that. And then from that kind of turmoil emerges the peace that. In a higher perspective. And it's. It's back to dichotomies where we wouldn't have the piece if it weren't for the turmoil and it comes out of. And they're related to each other. And so.

And it's like. And it's on this dimension that we're talking about too, in this particular instance is, oh, I'm trying to help them find the launch pad. Right.

Yeah.

And. And. And here's. And. And just this closes the loop sort of on religion, too. I. I have my own launchpad that worked for me, and I feel like that's what religions are. Are. They're known launch pads that have worked for somebody and worked for many, many people.

Yeah.

But, you know, Cape Canaveral is not the only place that people have successfully launched rockets into space from. It's really ideal for a lot of reasons. And Russia has their own launch pad. China has a different spot. India has a spot, I think. Doesn't Japan also have a place they've. Like, if I think that the only place to launch a rocket is from Cape Canaveral. And so all of my directions are going to lead you to Cape Canaveral, but, you know, you live in Asia. There's going to be a disconnect.

Yeah.

And. And if. If I think that, you know, like, I. I have certainty that. That this is the right launchpad, because it worked for me. Okay. And it worked for lots of other people too. So therefore, it's the universal launch pad, and you gotta be convinced about it.

I'm your parent and you son are going to use the same launch pad as me.

Okay. Can I, as the parent, have a little bit more relaxed perspective and recognize the truth, the greater truth, that space is everywhere. It's all around.

Yeah.

And there could be a lot of functional launch pads to get people to that deep personal experience of what infinity really is. That experience that reaches beyond words and the ability to thought or reason or logic and into something that is truly known. This. This. This knowingness of a universal infinite in eternal truth. That. That. That is beyond the mind and is way more real than anything the mind can ever construct.

Beautiful words to conclude that with nothing I can add to that. But thank you so much, Ben, for sharing your insights. Your. Your own experience. Vulnerability. It's just so refreshing. And what a. What a interesting, inspiring conversation. So I've certainly grown and love it. And I'm sure people listening, there's probably something to take away. And as we always end these episodes with an action step for this one, the action step would be for you. I'd say we'll keep it real simple and granular, which is the moment of the conversation. We're talking about what lens you're viewing life from. How am I seeing myself? How am I seeing life or God or the universe, whatever you want to call it. Just pay attention to that. Right today.

Right.

Right now. As you're listening when you. Later today, it might not be a question. We're so focused on. I got to do this. I'm going to do that. And just slow down for a minute.

Okay.

How am I perceiving myself, the world and life for God and observe that. And then there's so much more that you could draw from this episode or other actions you might want to take. But that's one that I would recommend. And until we speak again, may have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level, that is. Time it up.

Ben, you are awesome.

Yeah, we nailed that. Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit.

From what you've just heard, please let.

Them know and send them a link.

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