Master Your Fear With Dr. Robin Zasio (Part 2)

Coming to you from the center for Social Confidence in Portland, Oregon, welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. Helping men everywhere go from social anxiety to social domination with your host, Dr. Aziz.

Hello. Welcome to another episode of Strength for the Shy Guy. I'm your host, Dr. Azeez. I was practicing my auctioneer voice there. See how fast I can talk. Welcome to today's episode of the show. I'm talking fast because I am excited to share with you the second half of my interview with Dr. Robin Zasio. It is chock full of super liberating stuff. I mean, I got to say, I've been doing this work for many years and just talking to her, you're just going to feel more inspired. You're going to feel, I mean, you're going to learn some really powerful strategies. In fact, especially in today's episode, we're going to talk about how, how to make exposure stick, how to get the most out of exposure, which is facing your fear. How to make it so that you don't have to just keep facing every time you face the fear. You don't have to feel that same level of fear again and again and again. So, like you're going to speak up in a meeting and you have a flash of anxiety or a spike of adrenaline, you don't want to have that the 30th time you speak up in a meeting. You want to learn how to make it that after the first five, seven, whatever your number is. Some things take more or less time, depending upon your experience with them, but you want to make it that over time gradually becomes less and less and less anxious to where it's just no big deal. And there is a real powerful strategy and distinction that Robin shares that's going to help you do that with exposure among a ton of other things. So I'm super excited to share this with you. And last week at the end of the episode, in your action step, I encourage you to create your own fear hierarchy. If you haven't done that, do that now. That is going to help set you up so that you can learn the second half of this stuff in this interview. That's going to help you put it into practice immediately. So enough of me prepping you now let's jump back into that interview with Dr. Robin Zasio.

Expert interview.

Absolutely. And I think that you keep highlighting the power of building up because I think if you are building up to asserting yourself with that friend by say, maybe disagreeing with someone at a low level where there's no risk or saying no to A simple request, maybe from someone at work, little things like that, that you can build up that muscle, then you can handle heavier loads. You can handle a more challenging conversation with a friend.

Right, right. And that's why, you know, kind of going back to, you know, making phone calls that we wouldn't ask someone to start with, you know, asking for a location because that would require for you to be able to, you know, write down the directions and stop them if you didn't understand or, you know, go back and say, did you meet a left or a right on 12th street that starting with, what time do you close? Okay, thank you. And hanging up the phone. What time do you close? Okay, thank you. And hanging up the phone, you know, just doing that over and over again and then working your way up to some of the, as you mentioned, heavier loads or the more challenging things that would just require a little bit more sustained contact. So, you know, again, a lot of people will say, well, I want to be able to go to a party or I want a date and I can't do these things. And that's the, well, you know, you're not going to dig a pool, a hole for a pool in a day that we have to give it time, we have to build up because there's a confidence building that happens. And I know that that's really huge on your plate and that is helping people to build confidence. But like anything, you know, I'm an avid equestrian, you know, and the place that we start is not jumping over a four foot fence. The place that we start is learning, you know, how to saddle up the horse, how to groom the hors, to sit on the horse. And you may be thinking, oh, I just want to get going, I just want to start jumping. Well, like anything, you know, that can produce, you know, dangerous results if you don't lay that groundwork to build your confidence.

Absolutely. And so one thing that I think is very important to highlight is when it comes to taking the leap, there's a, we need to see, okay, what is my fear actually of. So otherwise it's this vague danger scenario and we want to say, okay, what am I actually scared of here? What is the prediction? And then let me test it and let me see what happens. Now, do you find if people do that, does the fear just naturally subside and diminish with just the exposure? Or do people have to do something afterwards to kind of say, hey, look at my prediction, look at the reality, see how they don't fit? Like, is there anything that you do afterwards to help someone really change their predictions for the future so they're not just as scared the next time.

Yes. And so I think that that's where a lot of people have trouble with exposure is they just go in and they do it, but they're not aware of the thinking process that is so important to attach to it. So, again, it sounds really difficult, but it's making that phone call or walking into a store, and okay, I'm going to be aware that right now my fear is that the clerk is going to get angry with me for asking a question. Okay, here we go. And then they go ask the question. They find out that the clerk smiled and that they were very friendly or that they walked them to the location. And then when they're done with the exposure, to be very well aware that what they feared did not happen. Okay, here we go again. I'm going to walk into a second store and ask for another location of an item. And then aware, when they're done with the exposure, that that conscious thought of what I feared did not happen. Because in essence, what's happening is there's chemicals that are firing telling you there's danger. And so those chemicals firing are misfiring, telling you that there's danger when there's not. So what we're going to do is through that desensitization process, is help the brain to literally see that what they fear is. And so by going in and being aware over and over again, that's actually what stops those chemicals from firing, telling you that there's danger when there's not. And so having that awareness of what you fear didn't happen is the key. Because if you go in and all you're doing is grinning and bearing it, what happens is you have a spike of anxiety, and then the anxiety goes down when you get out of the situation. But then you're going to have that anticipatory anxiety the next time and the next time and the next time when you have that awareness of what I feared did not happen, or conversely, going back to your point of, wow, I feared that XYZ happened, but it wasn't as bad as I had anticipated. That's what's really important in the whole process.

Yeah, and that is a huge insight because I think it is very possible, and I know I experienced that a lot in my life, to just do the thing that scares us again and again. And you can. You can develop a willingness to face fear, a courage, and yet that, you know, if you're experiencing that spike every time it can be tiring, it can be exhausting, or at the very least, it can just take some of the joy out of the things you're achieving or getting. So I think that is a very valuable tip there. I really appreciate that. We are going to take one moment, take a quick break, and be right back right after this.

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Yeah, and I think it's really liberating too, when you're scared of something that when you face it, it's liberating. I mean, I think that that's a great word. And you feel almost energized because you've gone out of your comfort zone and you' something that is challenging anytime. I think we can feel like we are growing and getting outside of our comfort zone and doing things that are difficult, that we feel good because we have challenged ourselves. And I think one other point, just while I'm thinking about it, that's important to remember, is a lot of people will try to problem solve ahead of time if something goes wrong. So if I walk up and this clerk ignores me, this is what I will do. And that is a recipe for disaster. Because what starts to happen is you start making these lists of all the things that you're going to do should something go wrong, which then exacerbates your anticipatory anxiety and can prevent you from moving forward. So one example is of people that I work with that are terrified to drive on the freeway because they're afraid they're going to get in an accident and so they avoid the freeway and they go the surface routes. Well, once we start to do the exposure very incrementally, right, we don't have them drive 200 miles. We have them get on the freeway, drive one exit, get off, drive back, and we do that over and over again. Well, certainly the risk for getting in a car accident is possible, but what I found is that if, and this hasn't happened very often, Someone does get in a car accident, then they find that it wasn't as bad as they thought. And in that moment they made a plan accordingly rather than prepare. If I get in an accident, I'm going to do these five things. I'm on my cell phone, I'm going to have my insurance card ready, I'm going to have my license ready. I'm going to have cones where I can block off my car. And again, I know this sounds really silly, but people will do that to where they have all this prior preparation just in case when in fact they find out that, oh, you know what, it was just a little fender bender and it didn't even mark my car. Or it was a little fender bender, but we didn't have to call the police, we just exchanged licenses. For many of us, if we just go through life dealing with things when they come up or if they come up, we have a lot more freedom.

Yeah, it can be pretty exhausting and a heavy load to carry to be constantly anticipating and problem solving every situation and every nuance and really reliving or pre living a lot of painful experiences that aren't going to happen and then trying to solve them. So I think that is a much more peaceful way to live. And one thing I'm curious about in your years of working with people is what you found is some of the things that are behind the anxiety. What I mean by that is I found that sometimes people are. There's something that they are avoiding, not just the activity, but there's something deeper that they're avoiding by being absorbed or really anxious about something. And I think this might especially be true in certain aspects of obsessions or even social anxiety, that sort of thing. Have you found any trends to things that might be behind the anxiety or that people might be distracting themselves from with an anxiety?

Well, you know, sometimes just when we're dealing with anxiety, it's just chemical in nature. Someone can say, I don't know why I feel so uncomfortable in social situations. There's no reason for it. I just know that I am versus other people. There could be some trauma. And one common theme that we are seeing, especially kids, is bullying. And bullying just has so many detrimental effects on people. And especially as a child when we're learning about social situations and how to interact with others and our brains are still formulating and peers are so important to us. And if you're bullied, that can then create a chemical imbalance which then causes people to be fearful of going into situations and so avoiding it does not trigger those memories from the past and how bad that felt. But again, as you know, when you avoid things, then the anxiety continues to escalate and grow because it becomes this big, huge thing in your mind that perhaps you know, really isn't that big if you're willing to test out your fear. And I think it's hard because when there are psychological factors that are contributing to your anxiety and perhaps you don't have the financial or other resources to seek help, it can be really, really difficult to work through it. And that's where I think the self help industry can be good. Because you can buy books to kind of help you try to work through it. Every issue that we have in our lives doesn't require a therapist. But perhaps having a close friend that you can talk to or reading a book or going online listening to your podcast can be one way that you can start to work through some of that trauma that's disabling or limiting you.

Sure, sure. And one thing I wanted to also ask about, which is something, again, another maybe particular useful. I think you have so many years of experience that want to get all the little in the moment techniques that you use, but do you teach any sort of breathing technique or anything that you use to help people to manage that spike of fear?

So the key with exposure is the willingness being willing to go into uncomfortable situations and interestingly enough, not do anything to try to make your anxiety go down. Because what happens is we're tapping into what's called the sympathetic nervous system that fight or flight. Basically what we're saying is we don't want you to flight anymore. We want you to fight this. We want you to go in and test out your fear. And when people pair that at the same time with breathing exercises, it actually serves to neutralize that exposure. Because the idea is testing out your fear and not doing any kind of compensatory behavior to bring down that anxiety. Because. Because the reality is you don't want to spend your life having to do breathing exercises or relaxation techniques every time you go into a social situation, while you can take a couple breaths before you go in to just kind of give yourself that confidence of, okay, here I go. The bottom line is it's that awareness of testing out your fear. And that's how our brain becomes desensitized, is by literally being able to confront that anx anxiety without doing anything to try to bring it down. And then when you do that over and over again, your brain gets used to it.

We're going to take One more quick break and then jump back into the conclusion of my interview with Dr. Robin Zasio.

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Right? Right. And what about someone doing some exposure where they have. They haven't done it yet. Let's say they're afraid to speak up. They're going to lead a meeting at work or do a presentation. There's going to be a number of people there. It's going to be an important event. And let's say they were to stay at home before the event and imagine it and then feel all that fear and then not try to get away from it, not try to resist it. Just let the fear kind of course through them and they just sort of sit there and feel it and don't resist it, maybe notice it in their body. Have you found something like that to be valuable beforehand?

So my concern with that would be that if they are at home and just playing out this scenario in their mind over and over again, that it would build for them and potentially cause more anxiety. So, for instance, when I was getting ready to take my licensing exam, somebody told me the worst thing that you can do is just keep studying up until that last moment, that the best thing you can do is make a decision to study to a point the day before and then stop and then go with your daily routine and even find a pleasurable activity to do so that you're not focused on it, because that focus on it will actually raise your anxiety. And so, as hard as it was, I made a decision noon the day before my exam that I would stop, that I'd put all the books away and be done with it and went on with my day, ended up going to a movie. And while this exam the next day kind of kept sort of falling off of this imaginary shelf that I create for myself to not focus on it, I did feel better. And I felt actually more productive than just kind of swimming in this exam the next day. So if someone has a presentation, in this example, I would say the best thing you can do is go to work and go through your daily routine. And what's going to happen is you're going to get distracted and eventually that presentation will sort of present in front of you. But at least you've been productive up until that point. But this is the deal. While I realize that there can be situations for people where they go into work and their boss says, hey, I need you to, you know, so and so is sick today. I need you to present on xyz. Those things do happen, but more likely people have time to prepare. So this is where the exposure would come in, where someone would begin to prepare the presentation and then practice it. So they could practice it just by standing in their house going through the presentation, and then practice by standing in front of the mirror. Then practice by doing it in front of a friend and then perhaps two friends, perhaps two friends and a family member. And then building that confidence by doing it over and over again to where when they go in, they feel much more equipped. It doesn't mean that they're not going to have anxiety, but they will likely feel more equipped.

That's great. I got a great image of someone giving the presentation in front of their dog and their small children. Gather around, everyone. I'm going to tell you about the numbers.

So back in the day, and I don't know what things were like when you had to do your exam, but I know for myself, we had both a written and an oral exam. And countless times I would just sit at the table asking myself a question out loud and then answering it over and over again. And I really made a point that when I would make a mistake or I get tongue tied, that I would push myself to move through it. Because the reality is I can't start over. You know, if somebody asked me a question and go, oh, wait, wait, wait. Okay, no, that didn't sound right. Let's do this again. So I Would really push myself to try to pick it up or, you know, continue if I made a mistake. That's where I started. And then what we did was we got study groups to where we would all practice going around the room asking people one question and then answering it. And then we would do two questions and then three questions. And then what would happen was somebody was sort of the person who was going to be on stage who would have to go through a series of questions for about 15, 20 minutes from each of the panelists, if you will, that we worked our way up to that experience of if I was being asked a series of questions from a panel of people that you felt more equipped to do so. And it doesn't mean that you wouldn't make a mistake or get tongue tied or not be able to answer the question. But being in those situations repeatedly really built all of our confidence.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there is tremendous power that people overlook in repetition, in practice and practicing things that you might not even think that you can practice anything that you speak out loud, you can practice. And sometimes people think, oh, that's strange or that's weird. But I have a similar experience with. Many years ago, I was actually very, very scared to ask someone out. And so I didn't even even really a try for a long time. But then eventually I worked up the courage to start talking to women I was interested in. But then when it came to there was an opportunity to ask someone out, I just wouldn't do it because I was so scared. And so what I did is I practiced how to do it just like a real casual, like, hey, do you have email? Or what's your number? Or something as simple as that. In those moments, I couldn't get it out of my mouth. So I went home and I just, just hundreds of times be like, hey, do you have email? And it's amazing how the simple repetition of something out loud then opens the doorway for us to do it in the situation.

Well, and I think that that's a great example because, you know, I was looking over your website and I saw the picture of you and your wife and then the picture of your wife pregnant. And if you imagine that you never did all that practicing, where your life would be.

Yeah, in the shitter.

I mean, you know, life would be so much different. And I think too that, you know, in some ways I feel like, wouldn't it be great to have a crystal ball to say, if you do this, then this is what's going to happen? And you look at this. And you go, oh my gosh, there's no way. I can't even imagine, like, I can't even imagine, you know, a wedding ceremony, all these people looking at me, let alone asking this beautiful woman, you know, for her email, you know, and it's like, okay, but if you envision that this could be your life, how much better would it be? Because I think, you know, better than anybody the depression that comes with not doing the things that you want to do, no matter what they are. I mean, anything. So, you know, kind of going back to this very systematic desensitization. I go way, way back to right around 1997 when me and my friend were going to go to Mexico and together. And she said, you know, would it be okay if, you know, I took some time to go diving? And I was like, of course, you know, it's your trip too. And we were making all of our plans and everything, and I hung up the phone and little while later I thought, wait a minute, why don't I dive? You know? But it wasn't a matter of putting the scuba tank on and going underwater. It was a matter of doing the in class instruction, learning about it, looking at the equipment, watching somebody, how they. They put it on and they take it off. And you know, and then at some point, then it was just a matter of putting it on and taking it off. And then it was a matter of jumping in the pool and sticking your head underwater, you know, and again, it's that same process of, you know, no one just puts the gear on and jumps in. I mean, I guess in some cases people do, you know, but that presents. Yeah. Unadvisable. Exactly. And that presents with danger. Because like anything that we're. Or have a novel situation, we want to build our confidence. And of course, gosh, that word just keeps coming up over and over again so that each step of the way we start to feel just a little bit more comfortable. And honestly, I do not recommend that people do what's called flooding. I think it's very, very dangerous. And I think that there are. The potential for problems is very, very great. You might say, well, can you explain this? I know you know what flooding is, but for the listeners, flooding is when you go to the very top of your hierarchy. So that might be something like going to a mall and seeing someone that you're attracted to and say, hey, can I have your phone number? Well, that could be kind of risky. So again, it's a matter of, you know, working your way up to a party Working your way up to making conversation, and then when it feels right to be able to ask someone out, but not going to the very thing that you know could support what you fear.

Yeah, absolutely. And I what you were saying earlier, I really like is this thinking about, I believe we all have a default future, you know, where we're going to end up up if we don't do something different, if we don't take a new action, if we don't try that thing, if we don't take that risk, we're going to have a future. It's just going to be very different. And the default future that I had when I was a lot younger was a lot of loneliness, a lot of poor relationships or not the connections that I wanted. But by taking those little steps, those little risks that Robin keeps sharing, we build up not just more courage and confidence and less fear, but we create a future that can be brighter or filled with things that are incredibly fulfilling and give life great meaning. So I think this is a very inspiring interview, and thank you so much for sharing all these little tips. I know you have way more knowledge and experience and ways that you can help people grow, and you always have a lot of projects going. So what is a great place for someone to find out more about you or learn from you or anything that you'd like to share with people about how to stay connected with you?

Of course. So we, I have a business called the Anxiety Treatment center, and we're@ anxietytreatmentexperts.com anxietytreatmentexperts.com and you can go to my website where you'll see information on the different anxiety disorders, what they look like, what you can expect with treatment, and just to get a better sense of how to approach the desensitization process, I kind of outline fear, what it looks like, the fight or flight system. And certainly there's great books out there, too. Again, not every problem that people have, do they need to seek therapy? But the really cool thing is that today there's so much more mental health awareness. And with all of us working to reduce stigma about seeking help and really validating that anxiety is very, very chemically driven and that it can be overcome. And if you're willing to just take that one step, whether it be to go get a book or listening to this podcast, or talking to a loved one or a friend about your fear and asking them to help you, that will really go a long way. And I think also to remind yourself that everybody has experience with facing fear of some Kind, but we don't really think about that. You know, going to kindergarten, you know, that's a really scary thing for a five year old, you know, to do, to separate from mom or dad or, you know, to go into a room with a bunch of kids that you don't know. But, you know, most of us did it and we came to find out that it was actually fun and that, you know, developing some independence from our caregivers was a really cool thing because it led to first grade and second grade and third grade and high school and perhaps even college, you know, so just really being able to get out of your comfort zone and know that your life will be better, I think is just so important.

Yes, that is really true. And it's helpful to see where we have taken action, where we have had courage, where we have stepped into the unknown and grown from it. So just another valuable perspective. Thank you so much for sharing and for being on the show, Robin.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

That brings us to the end of the episode, the end of the interview. And there's of course one more thing that we gotta really conclude with, which is we gotta put this stuff into action.

Time for action.

So today's action step. You probably know what's coming and it's probably been an action step that I've had in another episode. But it doesn't matter because it never gets old. Do something. Do one of the things off your list. Face one of the fears. Pick something small. Pick the 2 or the 3 or the 1, whatever your number is for the lowest ones on your list. Pick something and then just do it. And if you haven't created your list, well, that's. Make sure you do that first. But then face one of those things. Remember the example that she gave in the interview of it's challenging to have an extended conversation on the phone. Just start by calling up a business and don't have a long conversation with the person. Just say, hey, what time do you close? Great, thanks. Call up another one. Hey, what time do you close? Great, thanks. Remember that example from the interview? Well, here's the thing. You want to just do it until it becomes boring. Just do it again and again and again. Eventually you're like, oh, okay, I don't need to do this anymore. Then that's a great sign that you're ready to move up. So take your list and find something that seems really easy and then just go do it. Give yourself an easy win. You don't say, well, it's not going to be good enough. Unless I pick a seven and nail it today. Really just small steps, bit by bit. Get that momentum. So pick something small, pick a one or two, something that's pretty easy for you to do, and just do it a number of times to where it's almost boring. It's just like, yeah, okay, no big deal. Deal. You might be surprised if more anxiety spikes. That's great. Keep doing it until it calms down, until you've been able to work through the fear through repetition. So go ahead and pick one thing on your list and do it a number of times. Remember, repetition is key, and if you want to practice it ahead of time, like we talked about in the interview, that can help you as well. So go out there, get into action, do something, and let me know how it goes. Go to facebook.com SocialConfidence Post about your experience there. Share. You can also go to shrinkforthyguy.com and share about your experience there. Send me a message through that as well. So until we speak again, may you have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks, and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to social confidencecenter.com. Sam.