Nervous System Mastery With Jonny Miller

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence, first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Welcome to today's episode of Shrink for the Shy Guy. I'm your host, Dr. Aziz. And I'm excited because I'm going to be. I'm going to be learning with you from a nervous system specialist named Johnny Miller. And I am particularly fascinated in what he teaches and helps people do, which is how do you work with this thing, this body, this machine, this miracle gift that you've been given to know how to operate it? And it's kind of a common phrase, people say there is no operating manual, but what if there were? And Johnny has been studying this voraciously for thousands of hours. He has co authored the comprehensive Emotional Resilience and Leadership Report. He has trained and mentored and coached people from high performers and professionals at companies like Google and Salesforce and Slack, and helping people to learn. How do you. How do you operate when anxiety is high? How do you learn to turn some of those dials that can feel in many ways out of control? And we'll get into it, I'm sure, some in the interview. But Johnny also had an experience in 2017 with his fiance that really set him on the course that he is today. So, Johnny, thank you so much for. For joining us.

It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Yeah, I'm excited for this.

Right on. So I definitely want to get into the tools and. And how to, you know, how do we regulate our nervous system? And. But also, you know, what. What got you here? We read a little bit in your bio. Maybe you could tell us a little bit, like, why. Why a nervous system specialists?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think I've always been voraciously curious. I. I loved traveling. I started a Travel company about 10 years ago, and about five and a half years ago, that curiosity kind of got turned inwards. And as you. As you just mentioned in the intro there, I. I lost my fiance. She suffered from bipolar disorder, and one morning she Was working as a junior doctor and she had an anxiety attack and she came home and there was no one at home. I was away at the time. And she overdosed on her own medication. And this, as you know, as you might imagine, just completely like broke me, broke me open, turned my life inside out, upside down. And the process of moving through and surrendering to grief really just like, it like, opened up this like, interior landscape that I hadn't been aware of previously. I'd been very much like, in my head, scared and interested and like philosophically curious about things, but just honestly, like quite numb from the neck down. And once this grief started to move through me, it also opened up other layers of things that were there and begun this quest in a way to kind of understand like, what, what is going on inside. And that led me to meditation, plant medicines, breath work, which is now a big part of my life. And really looking to understand the nervous them through the lens of things like polyvagal theory and other lenses to understand what's, what's going on.

Yeah. Wow. And I think that's especially important for anyone who wants to have more confidence because, you know, confidence is a byproduct of action. We have to take the risk to see there's some story I, you know, we have about ourselves, oh, they're not going to like me. I'm not good enough for that. And we can do some affirmations, we can try to pump ourselves up, but the, the true path to confidence is to say, okay, let me see what happens when I go talk to that person. And you realize you can handle it. Or actually you get some positive responses, even though your mind only predicts negative. So people kind of hear that and they're like, all right, makes sense, I'm okay. But then when it comes to it, there's beforehand all the anticipation, anxiety during, you know, you might freeze, you might freak out. Even if you hide it well, it's like super unpleasant. And then afterwards there might be a lot of arousal in the nervous system. And then that manifests in kind of a painful way of like self judgment and rumination. And so I realize as I'm helping people build confidence, a big part what I need to do is help them work with their nervous system so they can go take these risks. And so I'd love to hear, let's start with some of the basics. Like, okay, someone's like, I want to take more bold action in the world. But man, I just get so anxious facing some of these fears. You mentioned polyvagal Theory. What are some of the core, like, if you're to say, okay, there's a couple things you need to know to start to work with this, this gift of a body. What would those things be?

Yeah, thank you. I love this question. And I actually, I was having a conversation with a, a previous student yesterday about how courage and self conviction was like a really unexpected byproduct of, of going through this training that we did together. And you have a lion there in the background.

So there's a subtle, there's a subtle reference there.

It's not actually mine. It came with the game, with the rim. But that's great. He's, he's here. Yeah. So I think one of the crucial distinctions and frameworks that helped land some of this stuff for me is I don't know if your listeners are familiar with top down versus bottom up kind of interventions or protocols. And just to sum it up briefly, top down interventions are things like positive reframes, affirmations, meditation, things where you're using your mind to kind of tell a different story and show up differently. And those can certainly be effective. And what I found, at least for myself is like, when there is like so much activation energy in my system and you know, my hand might be like quivering, it's, it's really freaking hard to like access that and to kind of make those shifts in the nervous system when you're in this like high tone, sympathetic state.

Yeah, it sort of often falls flat. It's like not convincing. It just feels like, yeah, it's like, it's like we're trying to sell ourselves.

Try again. And then the judgment comes back in and it's like, yeah, so, so what I've really enjoyed working with and what I found to be really empowering to share with people are these so called bottom up protocols, which basically means like working with your physiology first. And there's actually some quite interesting neuroscience behind this in that we have four times more neurons going from our body to our brain as we do from our brain to our body. So it's actually, it's like more effective to intervene at that level. There are, there are different protocols that you can use, but my favorite and I think the kind of most effective is using the breath. And there are kind of three or four different core breathing practices that I teach. But the essential principle is having a longer exhale than your inhale. So it might be inhaling for a count of four, exhaling for a count of eight, or doing like a full breath in and then a sigh on the exhale. So it's like, and it's like this relaxed, effortless sigh. Another one that I like to use is called the single breath hum. That also has some great research behind it. And it's basically again like a full inhale in and then like a, all the way to the end of the exhale. And you can, you can combine these, you can just kind of choose one. Um, I, sometimes I like do it in the bathroom. Sometimes if I'm at like a social event and I'm feeling like overwhelmed or I use this before giving a TEDX talk that when I was, I was terrified. Like it's like I was shaking, my, my mind had gone blank. I was like judging myself. And like three minutes of this just dropped me into this state of like complete calm and stillness and presence. And it's, it's amazingly effective and I think it, it's one of the most like, like shocking like before and after effects. Because if you, if you tune into your body before and then you do one of these breathing protocols and then tune in afterwards, it's like, it's like whoa. Like there's just this like relaxation. And another thing I like to talk about is how the way we breathe, there's a part of our brain that's basically spying on the way that we're breathing. And if, say if I'm talking to you now and I'm breathing like shallow in my upper chest, like almost like panting, it will activate my nervous system and then that will send signals to the endocrine system which releases certain hormones which then like reinforces the, the thoughts and feelings that then create the breathing pattern. So it's like this vicious cycle. But if you change the breathing pattern, it then sends signals to activate the parasympathetic nervous system which sends the different hormones, different changes in blood chemistry, which then produces calmer thoughts and feelings. And so I find it really interesting that instead of sort of intervening with like trying to force our way to think or feel differently, if we change the breath, that then changes the physiology which, which shifts the types of thoughts and feelings that just arise. So it's, it's pretty magic. And then there's obviously other different bottom up protocols, like you can intervene with your visual system. So kind of Andrew Huberman talks about optic flow and relaxing your gaze and almost having like a wider, more panoramic view which also has a similar effect. And there's many more. But that's the basic kind of principle that I like to share of intervening with either bottom up or through CO regulation, which is basically like, how is our environment shaping our nervous system in each moment? And that could be the people that we're with. It could be, are we in nature? Are we like looking blue sky? Are we in like a, a busy subway? You know, like we're constantly being shaped by the stimulus that's. That's coming in as well.

Yeah. Oh, I definitely want to talk more about, about that one in a moment. I, I've noticed that I, I always. Well, it really accelerated in 2020 when COVID lockdowns were occurring. I started to go out into nature more and then I started to get this appetite for it. I'd always done stuff outside, but, you know, a little bit here and there, and it became like, oh, I want to spend all day on the mountain, you know, and we. It got so strong that we actually moved out into a forest about nine months ago. And my desire to be outside, it's just, yeah, I want to spend. I try to get, you know, at least three hours a day outside if I can. And it's just this. It feels like my body, my nervous system from the bottom is drinking in something. And I'm amazed by. It's like, oh, yeah, I would actually want to spend like seven hours a day outside. You know, logistically, it's hard to pull that off at this point. But yeah, so we'll talk more about that environment. I think that's really important. And, but let's.

For those.

I love this whole idea of bottom up. It's such a simple, understandable way. And those techniques, just a few you threw out there, are really, really impactful and powerful and easy to remember. Just like breathe out longer than you breathe in, breathe in and hum until you're done with the breath. So when you're doing those like before the TED Talk and you're kind of in the moment, you're stressing, your mind's racing. What are you doing during those couple minutes with the mind with. And it's going really fast. Are you trying to just focus on the breath? Are you just saying, hey, do whatever you want? All I'm going to do is do this breath and let everything sort itself out. How do you, what do you do with your focus during that time?

Yeah, that's a great question. It's more the latter. And there's also, there's an interesting field of. I don't know if you've heard of the Alexander technique, but you can. It's basically practices to expand your awareness. So often when we're Stressed out and anxious, our awareness contracts into a more narrow field. And so if while we're breathing, we can almost like be aware of the space behind us or be aware of the space to the sides and above. That also adds to the kind of like, calming safety effect that it's. It's created. But generally I'll just like, allow the mind to do whatever it wants, knowing that the. The breath will like, will calm it down very quickly no matter what happens. So. So yeah, I mean, as with mindfulness, like not getting dragged into a thought stream or something and just like allow the thoughts to arise, noticing them as they do.

Yeah, that's really interesting. I didn't know I'd heard of the term Alexander technique, but I didn't. I didn't. Wasn't familiar with it. I didn't know that that's what's. Was one of their components. I. The whole becoming more aware of the space around you is something that I just came upon by spending more time outdoors and realizing one of the reasons that it feels good to me is there's a spaciousness to it. There's a sense of expansiveness. And I was like, oh, well, how do I get that more everywhere? And it was that I realized, and especially with. With meditation, if I. I feel like there's something about going really super inward that actually can create more of a lower energy state or a more negative or loops. But if I'm aware, but I start with, or allow the awareness to go way outside my body and almost like the room that I'm in, but I even let it go further to through the walls and the ceiling, that all of a sudden I can focus inward in a much more. Just a better way. It's not like a mental.

Exactly.

Grinding, scratching kind of way.

Yeah, exactly. So I've been in conversations with my friend Michael, who teaches the Alexander technique, and I have a hypothesis, I guess that the state in which our awareness is expanded is correlated to the state of ventral vagal, which is basically like our social safety, social engagement branch of the nervous system, which is what we're accessing when we're doing these breathing practices, when we're kind of taking these big sighs, that's using. It's like bringing us into ventral vagal tone. And my. My experience at least is that when my awareness is very expansive, it's. It's using that same part of the. Of the nervous system as well.

Interesting. Can you say more about that? And the ventral vagal nerve in general just to kind of describe what, what's what that function of that is. And.

Yeah, totally. So this is. This is drawing from polyvagal theory, which is the work of Dr. Stephen Porsche. It's an amazing, amazing kind of le. Through which to view life honestly. And the basic kind of distilled version is there are three branches of the nervous system. There's the sympathetic, which a lot of people have heard of is like the fight, flight, activation, intensity. Then there are two branches of the parasympathetic. Sorry, my puppy is.

Puppy's on the loose.

Chewing on my feet right now. Yeah. So there's two branches of the parasympathetic nervous system known as the dorsal and the ventral vagal. The dorsal is like the handbrake. So it's like the fuse. It's like when there's too much energy in the system and we, you know, we can't take it. It's like we go into collapse. It's like shut down, freeze. Like, just like, overwhelm. And it's also where depression tends to live. And these kind of more like inward kind of sensations. And then ventral vagal is the social engagement. Or like. Like when we feel safe, when we feel like we're connecting deeply with other people when we're in nature. Like, nature is a great way of getting us into this ventral vagal system. Like when I'm cuddling my puppy that's down here and she's not biting my feet. That's ventral vagal. And the breathing practices, too. It's sending signals to our body that we're safe, we can engage with other people, be social, have our awareness be expansive. And this is often what I think a lot of the nervous system work comes down to is like retraining this ventral vagal branch of being able to feel relaxed and safe in different environments.

And the ventral and dorsal. Those are just references to which part of the anatomy of this particular nerve is activated or is being used.

Yes. So the dorsal kind of neurons are more down, you know, like. Like pelvic floor, like this kind of area. And the ventral is more like kind of the right side of the neck going down into the heart. And you can even put a hand on your. On your neck. And, like, imagine that you're feeling into, like, the ventral branch, which is part of the vagus nerve. Yeah.

Wow, that's really fascinating. And that sense of relaxed. I'm safe and connected to others is, you know, essential for. For social confidence. And that's really getting into that state. And that's kind of what the whole purpose of the Exposure work and the training is like how can I approach interactions as you know, instead of from this sympathetic I'm going to die state or there's a high risk here is helping retrain people to see like well actually I'm not at risk right now. Even if they don't like me, that's okay, I'm not going to, you know. And so I think there's some retraining and really getting into that ventral state where it sounds like the dorsal ventral is more or dorsal vagal is more. This kind of cell. It's a self protection of a different kind of. You know one self protection is like run or fight and the other self protection is collapse or freeze or fawn maybe.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And with the dorsal it's when it's kind of like low tone or like not intensely activated. It's more like rest and digest. Like deep sleep is dorsal and it's. It's also worth noting that like these two or three of them can be online at the same time. So like when we're feeling in deep states of flow that's like sympathetic and ventral at the same time where we're activated but we also feel safe. We also feel like focused and, and like alive.

Wow, that's really interesting and I think very helpful too to just remember some of these tools because I find sometimes I will be. Let's say I'll. Like last night I was teaching a group call. You know, they're going long, almost goes three hours and I leave and I'm just like in this energy rich state. I'm like ah, but it's time for bed, you know. And so I'm up for two hours and I think I. It's helpful for me to remember some of tools because sometimes I'll think of them when I'm feeling bad, you know, I mean I'm stressed out, I'm anxious, but when I'm feeling energized it kind of feels good. And it's like a little kid who's like I don't want to go to bed. Yeah. But that there's still like a. It's not the time to be fully on and aroused and ready to go. It's the time to start to calming message.

Totally. Yeah. The states tend to be quite sticky in the sense that like when we're in sympathetic it feels good to stay in that or when we're endorsal it feels good to, to like go into whatever that sensation is. Yeah, I mean I'm the same like my partner and I try. And we have like a hot bath in the evenings or we go stretch doing some breathing practices as we stretch as well. Yeah, it's, it's really helpful to, and just get into a routine of these things as well because otherwise it's like, like you say, like when you're feeling like, oh, I feel so great, I've got so much energy. But it's like midnight. It's like, well, I'll probably regret this in the morning.

Yeah, yeah, morning is easy. Yeah, yeah, well that's, that's another key point about setting up rituals or how to get ourselves to do this because there may be resistance. So we'll talk about that in a moment. But first let's go back to this idea of co regulating with the environment around you because there's this interesting, you know, multiple perspectives can be true. So it's another. It's always never, it's not just one thing or the other. Right. But on the one hand there's, there's a sense of like, well, the environment I'm in, of course, is gonna have a big effect on me. And so sometimes the best thing you can do to take care of yourself is change the environment or get out. You know, if you're in an abusive relationship, get out of the environment, you know. But at the same time though, sometimes people will be the victim of their circumstance and their environment where it's like, well, you know, I don't like being in groups of people, so I guess I'm just never going to go to that kind of stuff. And so let's talk about this idea of correlating with the environment and how do we find our own agency and empowerment while at the same time we are affected by the environments that we're in.

Yeah, I think it's, it's a really beautiful question and that there is this like inherent tension in the question. And the way that I teach this and think about it for myself is developing like complete agency. Just give me one sec, I'm gonna let out the puppy. Puppy's on the loose. She normally gets to walk at this time. Yeah, so I, I think about this both in terms of knowing that like no matter what environment we're in, we are capable of down regulating, downshifting and accessing that place of calm. And at the same time I have this idea that, that we design our environments and then our environments design us in return. So we have agency over creating the types of space that we're in, knowing that the stimulus that we're receiving is going to be impacting us all of the time. So, for example, designing your bedroom to be kind of conducive to sleep, maybe having salt lamps and relaxing music and kind of lavender incense, that's going to create the conditions for sleep to emerge. And likewise, if you're in, if you're, if you live in a city and you, like, walk out on a busy street with lots of noises, that's also going to be impacting your nervous system. And there will be a tendency to go into that more sympathetic state. So I think for me, it's like, it's about being intentional and it's about designing your environment that is conducive to the states that you want to feel in your own life. And at the same time having the tools to up regulate or down regulate if you need to. Like, if you find your, you know, if you go traveling, if you're at an airport, like, whatever it is, like, life happens. We can't control our environments all of the time. But for, you know, I mean, like you were saying earlier, like, having a practice of, like, spending a good amount of time in nature, like, is amazing. And that will impact your nervous system over time as well.

You mentioned up regulating there. What, what exactly is that? And when would we want to do that?

Yeah, great question. So I did it this morning just before this podcast. It's basically like when we are in a kind of state of like, like lethargy, like maybe like low tone dorsal maybe we've just had a big meal. And instead of, you know, drinking two double espressos, you could do something like, like Bellows Breathing or Breath of Fire, which is a more activating breath practice. Or you could do, you know, do a workout or something like that cold plunge, and it creates more adrenaline and cort result in the system, which gives us, like, energy when we need it. So I'll have a practice usually in the morning kind of sauna, cold plunge, and then simple breathing practices to kind of get into that more energized state. And then the, the downshifting practices more in the afternoon when I'm looking to kind of like unwind from the day.

Yeah, which, which, which one is so the, the breath pattern that Wim Hof popularized, where it's, you know, 30ish bully in and letting go breaths and then a, and then a big hold at the end is that one? Because I feel like that one for me, when I do it, it's. I will feel a mixture of energized and calm afterwards.

So I don't Know if I'm up.

Or down or anything with that one.

Yeah, it's. I, I actually, I tend to stay away from recommending WIM HOF to many people in that because it's so intensely activating for people who have a, a proclivity towards anxiety, things like that, or panic attacks. It can really destabilize people. And I've spoken to many students who've had almost like, like long term dysregulation as a result of doing too much WIM hof. So I tend to recommend a slightly like lighter breathwork practice that's just through the nose. If you're breathing in and out through the mouth, it's very activating. Um, so it. For some people that have healthy nervous systems, then. Yeah, it can definitely have that Energized but also calm. But if, if you're someone that you, you know, maybe you have a tendency towards depression or towards being overactive or burnout, then I, I'd really, I wouldn't recommend WIM hof, certainly not on a, on a regular basis. Mm.

So what would you. Let's say someone wants to get into a more energized, but not, you know, I don't know, agitated sort of energy, calm but energized state. You said something about the nose. What, what, what technique would you recommend for that?

Yeah, so one simple one is, it's called Bellow's breath or Kapalabhati in like the, the yogic world. And it's basically 30 rapid exhales through the nose and kind of pump, using the belly as a pump. So I could do a little demonstration now. It's like.

So you're kind of pulling the.

So on, on the exhale, the belly is coming in and it's like.

You'Re pulling the belly towards the spine.

Yeah, exactly. And then the breath is pushing air.

Out the nose and then you're just breathing precisely through the nose to, to replenish the breath. So it's like in, out, in, out.

The inhale happens naturally. Yeah. You don't.

Yeah, it's like an automatic response to that. And you do like those or something.

Yeah, usually about 30. And then I'll do either hold on the exhale for 10, 15 seconds and then I'll either do a few sighs or I'll do alternate nostal breathing, which is like inhaling through the left side for four, holding for four, exhaling through the right for eight and then inhaling right for four, holding for four, exhaling through the left for eight, and then that's like one round and then you know, maybe I'll do two rounds, maybe three rounds and yeah, that's for me that's a kind of like more stabilizing.

Grounding way of energizing the body and the alternating so. Because I know that's from a yoga tradition as well. So that, I mean it's got the longer exhale than inhale. So that's going to have that calming effect. What is your understanding of the alternating of the nostrils and what the benefit of that is?

Yeah, there's been a couple of studies on this. Nothing that I'd say is like conclusive but my guess is that by only breathing through one side you're narrowing the aperture in which the breath can come in which is increasing the amount of CO2 in the body which kind of has this effect. And there have also been some studies that show that the left nostril is correlated with the right hemisphere and the right nostril with the left hemisphere and that there's almost this balancing of the hemispheres effect going on. That hasn't been conclusively shown through studies, but it's like a theory. Sure. Notice in myself that it feels it's more effective if I use the alternate nostril version. Yeah.

It also has the.

Just the.

On the surface level effective gives you something to focus on and do. So it can be more narrowing of that focus to help it get off of whatever you might be doing with your. Yeah, it's less helpful than that.

Exactly.

Yeah. That's an interesting tip about the WIM HOF thing. I think, I think there's a part of me that. That's helpful to have some because sometimes I don't. It's almost. It feels like a. Oh, that's a big output. It's like a workout to do that round. And also though I think there is something about. I'm. I am fascinated by altered states of consciousness. I think they're interesting to go into and explore and growthful. And there's something about that kind of intense breathing with the breath hold that creates that access to. Especially when I'm in the middle of the. The longer breath hold it's. Something's different and there's a part of me, it's like, like this. So. But I can see how it's. You want to have other tools, other gears because that is definitely like a high gear practice.

Right. So on that note, I mean I, I love what's known as transformational breathwork journeys where there's a 60 to 90 minute container and there's a breathing practice with a playlist with people holding space, where you really do get to access those altered states. And that's actually where I think a lot of the deep work gets us to access the root of some of these anxieties, challenges that we have sometimes traumas. And the, the practice that I use is known as conscious connected breathing. And it's basically a full inhale and then a relaxed exhale and I'll be lying down. Often there's someone there to provide physical support to help like create ease in the breath as well. And by looping the breath in this way, it basically creates a bridge to the subconscious. And subconscious material tends to rise up either in the form of memories from, from my childhood, from, from the past or, or just incomplete reflexes. And you know, sometimes like my right arms might start moving or my feet might start pedaling or anger might want to come through or fear. And it's. For me, it's really a beautiful arena for accessing like the full spectrum of human emotions. And it's like, it's increasing my capacity to feel in all of these different areas. And so for, you know, many years, I, I was just never angry. I was like, I'm, I'm just not an angry person. I'm just really calm all the time. And anger came up in a big way in one of these breath work journeys. And I remember my, my guide at the time, he said like, you are loved in your anger. And I just like burst into tears. I just started like bawling and crying and realized that I'd like shut myself off from feeling that way because I thought it made me a bad person. And these, this form of breath work has helped me process grief. It's helped me go into shame in a, in a healthy way. So I really find that style of breathwork, which is more of this like kind of deliberate journey to be just. It's changed my life, honestly. It's. It's really made a difference.

Yeah. Wow. If some. So this, there's the kind of. The facilitated format. Do. Would you recommend someone who's curious to. I'm sure like on YouTube or someplace, you know, following along on their own. Or would you say that that's. They'd want to get more of a support or more of a container first?

Yeah, I mean I. So I did kind of explore on my end to begin with, but as a, as a practitioner myself, I definitely would recommend ideally like one on one guided support in the beginning to kind of get a sense for, for Feeling safe in that space and staying in your body during the experiences as well, or kind of small group containers can also be really powerful. But just making sure that the practitioner is trauma aware, is aware of how the nervous system works. Because there are certain breath work experiences where people will just blast intense music, say huff and puff as hard as you can. And people might have these psychedelic like experiences, but I don't think it's really serving them in the long run. It's just like overriding their nervous system. They often check out of their body and then come back in and it can, in some cases it can re traumatize. So I, I tend to recommend finding a, a practitioner to work one on one with, especially in the beginning and then over time for sure. Like having your own self practice.

Yeah. And so the one that you Conscious connected breathing, was that what you called it?

Yeah, so I was actually trained. It's a bit of a mouthful. It's called facilitated breath repatterning or FBR for short. I interviewed my teacher about this on my own podcast, if anyone's curious. But it's basically using conscious connected breathing, which is just this like circular looping breath, like a full inhale and then a relaxed exhale to build more freedom and explore different breathing rhythms in the body and the nervous system. And their theory is that different breathing rhythms correlate with different emotional expressions. And so if we're unable to breathe in a certain way, then it's likely we're unable to feel whatever that emotion is. And so by going in gently, by having that like ventral vagal tone, that sense of safety, we're able to go into these more uncomfortable places and build safety in that.

Wow, that's fascinating. And with that starting breath, I know it sounds like you explore other patterns, but the starting one, are you maybe if you'd be able to demo just a few of those breaths. Are you sort of straining like fully in or just like a comfortably in and then out? Is there a certain pace you're trying to maintain? I'm curious. The few breathwork things I've done, journeys like that, and maybe this is just the nature of the beast. Pretty uncomfortable in the sense that I wanted to stop and it was like I don't. And it's kind of like, yeah, the first five, ten minutes are just like a workout. Like you might not want to feel like running, but you just get yourself running and then you, you know, like it. Now for me, running is like that. It's very self reinforcing and I know that I Mean, it's got all. It's got all the greats, right?

I'm.

I never run on a treadmill, so I'm always outside, no matter the weather. And my breathing gets really regulated because I focus on it often when I'm running. And. And so, yeah, within. No matter how much I'm resisting it, being in the warm house, you know, within three minutes of being outside, I'm like, oh, this is. I'm so glad I did this. Whereas with the breathwork journey, I found that it's kind of like a. There's like an efforting to do the breathing, but I'm not doing a physical activity that. That makes me just want to breathe deeper like that. And so there's like propping it up and that might be. Again, I'm curious if that's the nature of the beast or that's just the style that I was using or. What are your thoughts?

Yeah, yeah. So this is definitely. It's like a big topic to go into. But the short answer is there are versions of breathwork like Holotropic, which was developed by Stan Grof, who is an amazing human being. And I also don't believe that, like, that style of forced inhale and forced exhale is like serving the nervous system. So conscious, connected breathing is. It's like an inhale as far as you're comfortable, and it's almost like going through gears. So you start off in like first gear, second gear, and then as the music ramps up, you find yourself naturally inhaling, feeling more and accessing more of that, like the upper part of the lungs. So I mean, to demonstrate briefly, you'd be. You'd be lying down, obviously, but the principles are open mouth, relaxed body. The top of the inhale meets the exhale. The bottom of the exhale meets the inhale. So it's like circular with no pauses at the top of the bottom. And then it's like a vibrant inhale, whatever vibrant means to you, and then a relaxed, effortless exhale. So I'm a freediver. I have quite a big lung capacity, so my inhales are quite vibrant. But it's. It's always easeful. And when are over efforting or pushing ourselves, that's a sign that we're holding on to something or that there's something to kind of relax into. And this often shows up in our lives too. When I breathe in that way, there's a chance that I'm forcing my way through life or I'm gripping on tightly, or I'm afraid To let go. And it's interesting how I think the way that we breathe does have these. It's almost like a mirror to the patterns that we have in life as well.

Yeah, I think that's a. Another important. I don't know if it's a tool or just a reminder or practice is to be aware of our breath throughout the day at different times, as opposed to just, oh, I'm going to pay attention while I'm doing this exercise. And my sense is that if you are having a couple, you know, little, few sessions during the day where you're intentionally focusing on your breath, that you're more likely to bring your awareness to it during the day as well.

To, To. To.

To.

To.

To. To know how to influence things in the moment rather than let the pattern play out. And I don't know what's going on, but now I'm irritated and sad.

Yeah, I think that's a beautiful. That's a beautiful point. And something that I, I'm really passionate about talking about is this idea of interoception and somatic awareness and like noticing the earliest signs of a reactive pattern. So, you know, a lot of people, it might not be until they like, shout at their partner or they lose their at work, but if you can like, be tuned into your body, you'll start to notice like, oh, I'm feeling this like, tension or heat in my chest. And that is usually correlates with. I then lose my head. Someone. And so the more of this, like, somatic awareness or interoception as it's known, the more that we can be aware of our, like, early tendencies or early warning signs of going into reactivity in certain forms and like, intervene earlier while it's. It's easier and you can kind of catch it and you can calm down, but once you're. Once you're past a certain point, it's pretty hard to like, reel yourself in. You know, like, once you've. Once you've gone into that, like, hulk mode or whatever the. Whatever the pattern is.

Yeah. Which brings me back to something that I wanted to make sure we circle back to. I guess there's kind of two sides to this. One is around practices and how staying consistent with them. The other is okay in the moment when this would be a good thing for me to do. Sometimes there's a part of us that's like, no, I don't wanna. And we either tell ourselves it's not gonna work, which is total bs, but we just. Or there's just like, I Don't, I don't wanna do it. Calm down. You know, I don't wanna. So yeah, and I think one way to help us stay with a practice is when we can link it to something awesome. So you mentioned Andrew Huberman, right? Earlier in this.

Huberman.

Huberman, yeah, he, he said something a while back that really got me. So I'd done, you know, cold showers and stuff for a number of years, but I don't know, there's a six month period where I was real loose with it. So, you know, I'd end my nice hot shower with 10 seconds of cold and be like, I did it, I did it. You see that everybody? Right then I was listening to him and he was talking about creating the conditions of summer inside of your body. So this idea, like, you know, we all feel good when you walk outside in summertime and it's, that's naturally happening and then you go outside when it's cold and the winter and you're like. And he's like, but you can actually create those conditions. And so it's, you know, getting sunlight pretty soon as you can upon waking and, and doing the cold exposure. And so just that, that little framing of making it summertime in my body, I'm like, okay. And so as soon as I heard that, I got back on to, you know, doing a cold, purely cold shower every day. And it's. Sure it's, it works. So what would you say is that impact that, that that can sort of make us want to do these practices, to really link it to something. So what, what is the effect would you say of having a regular practice of working with our breath on purpose each day?

Yeah, this is a great question. And I've, I've read a lot about kind of behavior change and you know, James Clear's like idea around habit formation. And I think there's a lot there, but I think for me the fundamental piece is like, is like find a way to enjoy it. And often for me that's like tuning into my body and realizing that like I feel really good during and after. So when it comes to like doing it, there's not really any resistance because it's like I'll feel really good like during and after this. And even in something like ice baths, there is that initial shock. But very quickly it's like, oh, like this. Even the intensity, it feels really good. If you really tune into your body, it's more of like when we're out of our body, we're in the stories, it's like, oh, I want to go out. I want to go start my day, like, whatever it is. But if you're in your body, it's like, no, I feel alive. Like, this is, like, invigorating.

Yeah.

So. So for me, it's like, giving people experiences of whether it's these breathing practices, whether it's like, NSDR that Huberman talks about as well, which I'm a huge fan of. And I find that when people are tuned into their body and the actual sensations, then they really start to enjoy it. And it's more when they're, like, in their minds or in their heads or they're thinking about what they want to be doing next, that that resistance comes online. And related to that, like, if there is a voice that's like. Like, I don't want to do this, then. Then, like, feel that, like, go into the body, like, where is that voice coming from? And, like, feel that resistance and, like, go into it all the way. And don't, like, reject it, but just, like, invite it as, like, another thing to. To experience. And this, of course, I think it does take some time and practice. And in the beginning, accountability structure definitely helps. But over time, the more that we're, like, tuned into the sensations of our body or, like, the somatic awareness, the more we just trust that and the more it becomes like a. Like a compass and like, a guiding way we orient through life. Like, whether we say yes to certain things, how we make decisions, how we, like, what we eat, you know, all this stuff. Instead of, like, mentally trying to figure it out, it's like, does this feel good in my body? Do I feel expansive? Do I feel alive? Do I feel drawn to this? Which I think is a radical rewiring from how many of us grew up, at least. Certainly speaking for myself, where I was very in my head with everything, and I had made spreadsheets to make decisions and all that stuff. But that's. I think that's been one of the biggest gifts for me in this work.

Yeah, I love that. And you mentioned several times, cold plunge. Do you have a cold plunge that you set up? And if so, what. What kind is it? So I've been looking at those.

Yeah.

Oh, do I want to do, like, the DIY chest freezer thing? And I'm like, I don't know. And it's another thing to maintain in my house. I'm curious what. What you got going on over there?

Yeah, so I. I just did the DIY chest visa thing. I bought a chest freezer for. I think it was like $500, put some, like, sealant in the inside, and then that's pretty much it, honestly. And then just keep it at a consistent temperature.

Do you have, like, water pumps to circulate the water and all that stuff?

I, I don't. I just re. I empty the water every two or three weeks and, and. And put in some. It's like hydrogen peroxide, I think, just to keep the water from going bad. Well, that's the same stuff that they, they put in hot. Hot tubs. Yeah. That's the easiest approach. You can. There's some companies, I think they charge like four or five thousand dollars for. I'm like, no, I.

That's true with everything in life. If you can just DIY it. It's. It's astronomical. The difference.

Yeah, I think I was looking at. Oh, go ahead. You can also just use it, like, sometimes if we don't have that, we'll just, like, run a cold bath. And the, the water here is very cold, so that also.

Yeah, that's the, that's the, The. The. The quick and easy approach.

Yeah.

I mean, if you don't. The one I was looking at, like, they're drilling through the freezer wall to run their y. Their pump lines, and I'm just like, well, I don't know about all that. So. But the idea. If you can just cycle, you know, so how do you. We're not going to turn this into it. Make your own cold plunge podcast. But one last question, because I am curious about it. You're draining the water. If it's inside your house, how are you draining the water?

It's outside.

It's outside. Do you, do you have to worry about the temperature, the ambient temperature around the freezer damaging it?

Like, if it gets too cold sometimes it, it really damages it. I think it did get really cold here at some point, and then it just turned into ice inside and I just smashed through the ice and that was fine.

Just get maybe a freezer that's ready to go down to freezing temperatures or something.

Yeah, precisely. Yeah. Like a meat freezer.

Because, I mean, I do the cold showers, but I'm like, man, the cold plunge is a whole nother level.

It's another level.

Yeah.

And especially if you have like, some kind of like, like a sauna or like a steamer, something like that. It. It's. It feels great. It's one of my favorite.

Start with that and then go into the cold.

Yeah. Usually some kind of workout. Then 10 minutes in the, in the hot sauna and then the cold and maybe do two or three runs.

Yeah, now you're talking. All right, I'll, I'll look into the, the, the, the, the simple DIY approach.

But I, I can send some YouTube videos that were.

Yeah, yeah, please do, please do. And you mentioned a couple of things. So you mentioned you had your own podcast. What's the name of that podcast?

Yeah, my podcast is called Curious Humans. It's been going for a few years and I, I love it. Yeah, I kind of have conversations like this, honestly, with people who are experts in different areas of life, things that do relate to the nervous system, but also outside of that as well.

Yeah, awesome. Okay. So Curious Humans and people could find that on, you know, Apple podcasts, that sort of thing.

All, all of the usual podcast platforms.

Great, great. And then Also you have nsmastery.com and it's a nervous system mastery course. So can you tell us just a little bit about. So for those who are listening, you're like, wow, I know, we're just scratching the surface here and you want to really learn these tools in depth. Can you tell us more about that nervous system mastery course?

Yeah. Thank you. So it's, it's a cohort based program. It's five weeks long. The next cohort is running in spring. So April 10, I believe is the start. And it's basically my attempt to distill everything that I've learned into a kind of like practical curriculum. So sharing the protocols of breathing, emotional fluidity, self regulation practices, ways to build interoception, and also inviting in other guest speakers who are experts in different domains to share their own modalities. Q&As, hot seat coaching. It's kind of like an intensive experience, but I really enjoy doing it. And if this conversation has resonated with anyone, please do check it out. The applications are. Yeah, they're open right now, so feel free to get in touch.

Okay, that's great. Well, Johnny, thank you so much for sharing these insights. And just a very. I think one of the things that's most inspiring is not just the information you're sharing, but you know, you live this stuff. And I know we were scheduling this interview and you're like, oh, I can't do it. During that week I'm gonna be at a meditation retreat. Like, so there's a way that you're really living this. And I think that's the most most impactful way that teachers affect people. Right, because there's what you teach and the tools, but then there's also this transmission of who you are. So very inspiring. I feel that talking to you. So I'm inspired. I'm inspired to get that cold plunge going and to do some of these breath work practices, which I've, you know, been off and on again with. But I think the one thing that I see I was missing is I. I gravitated towards more of the intense stuff. Right. Like, all right, we're gonna sit down and go to gear four. I don't want to, you know, and so I love, love this. Just. I'm gonna multiple times, just do the longer out than in. Seems like a very easy entry point. I know there's so much more. So definitely encourage anyone listening who's drawn to this to check out the nervous system mastery course.

Awesome. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, this is an absolute pleasure. We're love to stay in touch. Sounds good.

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