Tell A New Story And Transform Your Confidence with David Van Nuys

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you if you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome to today's episode of the show. Today we're going to be diving into an interview with someone who has a wealth of knowledge and life experience and really lives confidence in a very interesting, cool way that's different than the I just did it and achieved the greatest things in the world kind of confidence that we might aspire to. It's a much more human journey, a much more relatable journey, and authentic, too. Very real and transparent about his fears and his doubts and his struggles. And yet through it all, there's such an inspiring message of take the leap, go into life, which is the theme of a lot of the episodes we're doing right now as we build towards the ultimate confidence breakthrough, which is really about. That's my next live event that we're doing here, upcoming in July, and that one is really about taking the leap into life. And so let's take some lessons from people who've been living that way for a long time. My guest expert today is David Van nuys. He's a PhD. He's the creator and host of a very, very popular podcast you may have heard of called Shrink Rap Radio, which is in its 15th year, has tons of enthusiastic listeners in more than 200 countries. He's known as Dr. Dave, and he earned his doctorate in clinical psychology at the University of Michigan and is now a professor at Sonoma State University, where he's taught for over 35 years. On his Shrink Rap Radio podcast, he conducts in depth interviews. He's had over 670 episodes, over 2 million downloads, received an award from the American Psychological association for his contributions in the field of psychology and has, I mean, tons of other stories that you hear about on his podcast of work he's done outside of the field of psychology and using his skills, leveraging his skills to work in the worlds of marketing and business. So what an inspiring story set of stories you're in for today. Without further Ado, let's dive into that interview now. Thank you so much for joining us for the show, David.

I'm really happy to be here. It's good to talk to you again.

And I love this because you have a popular show with a big following where you talk a lot about psychological topics in all different areas of life. And you are often on the host side. And now is a fantastic opportunity for us to have you on the interview side because you have such a wealth of experience from your own life. And I mean, having interviewed, what, over 600. I mean, just hundreds of episodes, hundreds of interviews that you've done.

That's true. And it's fun to be on the other side of the microphone, so to speak. And I love the interview that, that we did on Shrink Wrap Radio. And you were a delightful guest, so I hope to rise to that bar.

I have no doubt that you will, just from your experience with, with everything related to psychology. And so what we want to get into today is because this show is a lot about helping people free themselves from any story that holds them back, self doubt, social anxiety, any idea of themselves that is limited or incapable. So we can be our most free, bold, authentic, confident selves. And that's something that.

It's so inspiring.

Yeah, me too. That's why we're here. And so one place I'd love to start is a little bit more about your experiences of confidence. Would you describe yourself from a young age as confident? Does it naturally come to you? Were you confident at different stages in your teenage and early twenties? Or was it something that wasn't there for you and you had to, somewhere along the way, start to learn it?

Well, I would say it's kind of mixed, as I think it is. For many people, it can be pretty situational. For example, as a professor, which I was for many years, when I was in the role of teaching, I would appear to be very extroverted, but out of role. I would be somewhat shy and self conscious and retiring. So very much depending upon whether I had a role to support me or I was with friends who were very comfortable in that setting.

And then if you weren't in that role or weren't with the friends, what was your experience then?

Well, it would depend upon how intimidating the situation was. If it was a very intimidating situation of being with strangers who were kind of coming on very strong, I might be retiring. If the person I was speaking with was very retiring, then this compensatory thing seems to click in and then I come on strong. I don't know if you've ever had that experience.

Sure, yeah. There's something there that happens when we perceive, like, oh, wait, they're nervous.

Okay.

I guess I will, you know, be the, be the confident one here. Yeah, there's a funny little dynamic that can occur there.

But, you know, one of the things that I've learned is that what I tell myself, the kind of self talk I go into the situation with, and also what I tell other people can shape my own experience and shape their experience of me.

Yeah. And this is what you and I were chatting about before is the story, the story that we tell ourselves and the story that we tell others. And you were sharing some very interesting things when we were talking about some specific moments in your life where the story you told yourself and others really shaped your experience. And I'd love to unpack some of those and just see what we can learn how to approach how you did it in your life and how we can all apply that. And so one of them that I'd love to start with is the story of you and your partner having twins. And so if you can share a.

Little more about that story, I would like to defer that if I could, because I didn't. I learned this actually in a workshop and then later was able to call upon that learning when the. When the twins came along. So if I can start with that workshop that I took years ago, and it was one of those personal development type workshops, and I think it went over a weekend and so on. And there was this one exercise that had a powerful impact on me and the person who was leading the workshop. And I think they may have turned down the lights and put on some music. I'm not sure because it was so long ago. But we were instructed to tell our favorite victim story. The idea was the person said to the group, we all have our favorite victim story, a situation where we felt unjustly accused or something like that, where we felt victimized. So I want you to pair up with somebody and tell them your favorite victim story. So I thought about it for a moment. It was my turn to share and I thought, okay, I've got a great one. And this goes back to when I was an undergraduate, an undergraduate college student, my first year freshman at the University of Pennsylvania. And I was in a pizzeria with my friend and we were there just having a good time. And some guys came in who were being loud and raucous. And there was this one guy, kind of a burly, tough looking guy who had some Hand squeezers, you know, that you use to build up your hand muscles. So as he's coming down the aisle in this small pizzeria, he's slapping the hand squeezers on each table as he passes by. Wham, wham, wham. So of course this gets our attention. He sits down with his buddies. Somewhere in my line of vision, some somewhere across the aisle and past the friend that I'm there with, my friend Jerry. And the guy sees me looking at him and he says, what are you looking at? And I just kind of reflexively, I think I said, you. Well, maybe it was my friend, I don't know. But. So then he gets up and he comes over to us and he comes over to me. Me particularly being the slider. Of the two of us, I think my buddy Jerry would have looked athletically more capable. So this guy comes over to me and he says, well, I'm going to. Maybe it's at this point he says, who are you looking at? I say, you. And he says, well, you better turn your nose to the wall. And by the time I count three, and he says one, and I say one, you know, very cleverly, because what are you going to do? He says two, and I say two. And he says three. And I haven't turned my head yet. So he goes to poke me in the jaw to turn my head to the wall. Well, I kind of reflexively waved, you know, wanted to wave his hand away. And accidentally, unless you believe in the unconscious, I overextended slapping him in the face. Not a good situation. And he said, okay, okay, that's it. You just slapped me. Let's go outside, we'll settle this. I said, no, no, we're just. Look, we don't want any trouble. I just want to have some pizza, okay, with my buddy here. Very sorry, didn't mean to slap you. But. So he goes back to his. With his crowd and they're carrying on very loudly. And my buddy and I are trying to have a convers and forget about this. And we're taking our time, hoping that they will leave. And eventually they leave and we take some more time so that they'll have plenty of time to get away. And you can see why this is a well polished story because it was my favorite victim story. And so even after all these years, I can tell it pretty well. And so we wait an acceptable amount of time and decide to go and look down the block to see if they're. If they left. So I go to open the door to get out of the Pizzeria. But I think it's one of those things pull, don't push, or something like that, and kind of makes a big noise. And I'm looking down the block, and there's this big crowd gathered. And somebody says, there he is, referring to me. So my buddy and I duck back into the pizzeria. Eventually, one guy, not the original guy who was causing the ruckus, but one from his crowd, nice looking guy, comes back to the pizzeria. And comes to our table and says to me, look, we have kind of a situation here. You kind of. In public, you slapped. I'll say his name was Rocco. I don't quite remember. You slapped Rocco in the face, and he's, like, on the varsity football team, and this has got to be resolved. And so he says, you should just go down there and apologize, and, you know, everything will be square. So I summoned up my courage. Me and my buddy, we walked down there. There's this big crowd. You wouldn't believe it. And they parted ways so that I could go. And there's Rocco, and. And Rocco says, you slap me. You got. You better get down and kiss my toes. Kiss my. My feet. And I said, well, look, I didn't mean to slap you, but there's no way I'm gonna. I'm gonna kiss your toes. Your shoes. And wham. He slapped me really hard. But I managed to stay on my feet. And being the good Christian kid that I was raised to be, I turned the other cheek. And I said, how about this one? You want to slap this one, too? And he actually was kind of humiliated. And so that was the end of that situation, except that I was highly adrenalized, feeling humiliated. And me and my buddy, we walked around a long time that night, just kind of. Kind of trying to de. Adrenalize. So that's my victim's story. Now, in the workshop, having told that story, the leader said, okay, now I want you to retell the story, but I want you to tell it from the standpoint of taking responsibility for what happened. In other words, tell it not as a victim. So that was a little bit challenging.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. But then it really makes you stretch.

Yeah, but. And. And it did. But then as I thought about it, I realized, well, yeah, I carry myself. Or at least I did then as a young man with a little bit of a swagger, kind of a, you know, masculine kind of swagger, I guess. And. And of course, when he counted, I did echo his count. 1, 2, 3. And so, you know, maybe There was something in my bearing, in the way that I carry myself that was a bit provocative. You know, clearly I wasn't going to easily back down. And so I felt like, okay, that was kind of taking responsibility. And I, I could see it from that, from that point of view. Also, I was hanging out with my friend Jerry and whenever I was with my friend Jerry, we always had an adventure. Somehow advent would find us. So I have to take responsibility for the fact that I chose to hang out with this guy where interesting things would happen and if they weren't happening by themselves, the two of us tended to make them happen. So as I began to own all of that, I, I could see that and I kind of learned a lesson there that the story we tell ourselves can make a real difference. And I was feeling less of a victim when I told it that second way.

Yeah. And that gave you a open you to the awareness that it's not just one way, this event that you experienced. It's not just this is how it is. It was that this is the narrative, this is the frame in which I am putting it in. And that leads to a certain way that I might feel about myself.

Yeah. As a matter of fact, I was in therapy some years later and the therapist remarked, I don't remember exactly, but something like, boy, you really like to give hand people the dagger. And what she was referring to was something I've always regarded as good quality in myself is I tend to be very self revealing. But she was kind of saying, you know, you kind of give people ammunition to put you down. And so that's something I chewed on for quite a few years and I could see the truth of it. And so that's an interesting kind of balance there because I mean, you're a very self revealing person. But somehow there's. Yeah, I'm interested in your reflections on this. The borderline between being self revealing and between kind of giving people ammunition to use against you. What are your thoughts about that?

I love that question. I definitely tend to be self revealing. What's interesting is I'm the most self revealing with either people that I'm really close with, obviously my wife and close friends. But then I'm also very revealing in the service of helping people. So through my books and podcasts and videos and people that I work with and especially people, you know, clients. And I'm. And I do that because I know that it helps us all. And there are definitely times where I use discretion and think about what I'm going to share and how it's going to affect me and other people. But the perception that I have on it is that the ammunition is still not real bullets. Like, I see it as a confidence issue. And if someone says something critical about me based upon something I shared, how right am I with myself? How much am I okay with myself? And that might reveal something to me of where I might need to develop my own self love, my own self acceptance. And my goal would be to. One of the best ways to heal shame is to reveal it with people in environments that feel safe. And the best way to be vulnerable is to practice that muscle of vulnerability. So I've really taken it to a far extreme because I link it to confidence. And I'm like, well, if this is part of being confident, then I'll do it. And thus far it's worked well. And there are people that are highly critical of me or my work. But here's the thing I find is that if we're self revealing, if we share, if we're authentically ourselves, yes, you'll have those people who use it against you or don't like you, but you'll have so many more people who are in your camp who know you and love you.

Yeah, I think that's probably why I developed that trait, you know, was that I knew, either I learned or I knew instinctively that in sharing yourself, people are more likely to share themselves. If you share places where you're vulnerable, if you share something that's a little bit of a secret, people are more likely to be open and share those things with you. And so for me, that's always been kind of a character trait. So skipping ahead to quite a few years later, I was already married and I was a father and we had two kids and I didn't think we were going to have any more kids. And because my wife had a medical condition that we were told that there wouldn't be any more children. So very much out of the blue, and this story doesn't necessarily reflect really well on me, I have to say. I was a young man, a young father, and probably a pretty immature one in many ways. So when I got the unexpected news from my wife, I mean, really unexpected, guess what? What? I'm pregnant and it's going to be multiples. The doctor said it's at least twins. Could be three or four. Wow. And so I don't know if she raised the three or four to help me later down the road, say, oh, thank God it's only twins.

There you go. Just increase the expectation. And then and then, yeah, what a relief. Only two.

Unfortunately, I took this news as, like, doomsday news. I. I felt like, oh, man, I am really trapped now. I am so trapped. I have already felt economically beset, Wasn't sure how I could deal with more kids. Felt like it was going to greatly encroach upon my freedom. And I was just desperate. Just desperate. I thought about all kinds of dreadful scenarios that I won't even go into for getting out of this or getting away from it, et cetera. I think it was that same friend, Jerry, actually, that I spoke to on the phone. I was kind of, you know, I was kind of bemoaning to friends, you know, this situation. And he said, you know, David, you just got accepted. This is what's going to happen. Well, at some point, I remembered that workshop experience, and I realized that if I went around telling all my friends how trapped I was and how doomed I was and, you know, how economically I was going to, everything would be downhill from there. They would support me in that version of the story, because that's what friends tend to do often, is they will support the story that you're putting out there. So I decided that I would deliberately put out a different story. And, you know, they say, fake it till you make it. I think there's a certain truth in that. So I decided to act as if. To act as if I was thrilled that I was going to have twins. And so I started going around to people saying, hey, guess what? I'm going to have twins. And. And they say, oh, that's great. We had twins in our family, and it was a wonderful experience. Or my cousin had twins, and, oh, they were so cute, you know, and so all these people were giving me all this great enthusiasm and energy and sort of helping build my expectations for how wonderful it was going to be.

And I would like to jump in and really understand that shift in you. So you decided, okay, I'm seeing all these horrible scenarios. I feel awful. I'm gonna tell myself a different story, and I'm gonna tell other people a different story. Even though I don't really feel it, I'm gonna act as if.

And doing that began to change it for me. So at first it was acting, but it became more real as I got that feedback from other people. And, you know, and as I went through the motions myself, I. Of being enthusiastic.

Did you attempt to be enthusiastic on your own, even when other people are around? Like, was it a conscious. I'm going to see this as a blessing and something Exciting even when no one else is around?

I think so, yeah. I think I was definitely trying to re engineer my consciousness.

I love that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And guess what? The twins arrived, and it was the most transformative experience for me. Not necessarily at the moment of their birth and all of that, but very quickly it. And I think my wife stepped back a little, as they were. As they, you know, because she was like super mom with the first two kids. And I think she stepped back so that I was filling in and taking responsibility more for things like changing the diapers and all sorts of things that involved me being with them. And for me, it turned 180 degrees, where this became the biggest love story of my life, where I just felt. I just became besotted with these babies. I remember having an infant on. I was in a rocking chair, and I had a little baby on each shoulder. And I'm rocking in the chair and they're sleeping, you know, just slightly sleeping, snoring. And I feel like their little baby consciousnesses are pulling on my consciousness, and I'm just feeling myself getting sleepier. And it felt like at some level, we were just melding. That was a powerful experience for me. It was so powerful that later I invented a kind of personal meditation that really served me in a variety of situations where if I was feeling down, I would just. I imagine the joy that I felt. I realized that it was as if there were a radio knob in my brain and that I could just go to that place. First, it involved me remembering that moment of being in the rocking chair with them and feeling that sort of ecstasy come in. And then later, I didn't even have to remember that specifically, but just realize that I could go to that feeling directly. And turn the volume up. And turn the volume up. So that's a little bit of a side story there.

I love that, as you were describing it, I was going through that process right there and remembering a time with one of my children as a baby. And there's this beautiful, expansive, warm, full, rich feeling in my heart as I go through that. And what it's highlighting to me is that when we. The story we tell ourselves, not only determines how you're gonna feel going into it, but, you know, your experience of it. And if you'd been in this story of this is awful, and this is just taking something from me, it's very well that you could have gone through some of these moments and missed them.

Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. This was such a pivotal, transformative experience. And these guys, they're now adults and doing very well as adults. And they love bombed me. I don't know if at some level they sensed that I needed it or what, but they just bombed me with so much love as infants and as toddlers that I couldn't do anything but, but respond. You know, if, if we get a lot of love, we're going to give a lot of love back. And so it's just been a magical relationship throughout and one that I wouldn't trade for anything in the world. And there I will, I won't bombard you guys with the stories of, of the, the wonderful sweet things that they did. I've got some good ones, but just take my word for it, it was wonderful.

And what's coming loud and clear to me is that the story, the default stories that might come up in our minds that are usually about resistance or fighting something or not wanting change or not wanting challenge, are in a way us saying no to life, no to what's happening, no to what's next, no to what our potential is. And then when this is like a consciously saying yes to it. And then when we say yes to it, then there is, I mean there's the growth, there's the discomfort, there's the sleeplessness, whatever you went through, but then there's the goodies, then there's these endless gifts that are not just in the moment, but I mean you're talking about stuff that happened decades ago and you can hear it in your voice. It's right there. Yeah, so it's these gifts that last a lifetime when we're really engaged in life.

Oh, good point. And that's a perfect lead in to the next story, this one more story that's very much about resistance and fear and all of that. I was a young professor at Sonoma State University, very happy to be there, a program in humanistic transpersonal psychology. I just throw that in for free for the listeners and, and the time passed and I was nominated to be chair of the department. Now being chair of the department in this group of sort of free thinking, humanistic people, nobody wanted to be chair. There were no people in the department who had that sort of power hungry desire to be in charge of things. And least of all me. And I was still very much a junior member. There were other people who were older, more mature than I was, but I was deemed to be the person best qualified, the person that other people would trust to move into this role. Well, I was terrified. I, I still was in that position of, of not feeling fully adult. Being kind of immature still, I would have to say I had managed to duck out of learning a lot of things about the university, like how, you know, how departments are funded and, you know, where the money comes from and all of that, all of the complexities of the university bureaucracy, if you will. And I've managed to kind of keep my head low and stay beneath, beneath the radar on all of those sorts of things. So I considered suicide as a way of getting out of it, I hate to say, but that's how extremely fearful I was about it. So all these sort of desperate scenarios. Fortunately, the, the current chair at that time decided to take me under her wing. A wonderful woman, Dr. Eleanor Criswell. And she said, well, why don't we have lunch, let's have lunch on a regular basis. And she just kind of gently, we didn't talk a lot about being chair or anything, but she just kind of gently with her presence, I don't know, just, you know, help me to transition into this reality to the point where, and maybe I was, I can't remember now if I was drawing on that workshop experience and I'm sure I was drawing on the twin experience as well. But I made a resolution in myself first of all to kind of buck up and put on my he man pants, if you will. And to that I decided, okay, I'm going to learn to enjoy this job. I'm going to learn to enjoy it and do it so well that I won't want to give it up at the end of the, the three year term that was the regular term. And so what happened was I ended up serving not just one term but for seven years and they had to pry it out of my hands. Somebody else decided they wanted it more than me and ended up winning the election. But I would have served for three full terms at least if they had let me. Because I discovered that I had a good talent for delegating, that people like me, I'm charming and so I could charm people into doing the stuff that I didn't want to do and that I felt that they would be better at. And because of that, I was able to sail through, built my confidence by deciding to just go ahead and do it and to love it.

And I think that last part is where there's even more power, right? So I have this thing I have to do, party wants to flee, and then we can turn towards it and say, no, I'll do it. And it's very different to say, okay, I'm going to do it. And I'M going to figure out how to do it so that I love it, so that I don't want to leave. And that's like, there's such a level of taking ownership of. Of that thing. And I found something similar in my own life. It was a little while back that I realized, okay, I've done a lot in terms of what I can create and offer to the world directly in videos, podcasts, books, programs, coaching. But there's a limit to how many people I can reach if I don't broaden my network and build deeper relationships with people, other thought leaders and authors and influencers, and start to build a network of people so that we're sharing about each other and more people can discover my work. And I had a similar reaction to, maybe not as extreme for your position there, but like, oh, networking. Oh, man, that just sounds hard and uncomfortable and transactional. And I had all these stories about how bad it would be and really avoided it for. I mean, I'd known I wanted to do it for a long time, but like a year of active avoidance where it's like, I really could do this. This would really help me in my mission. And then there was this decision that I made, very similar to yours. I was like, okay, I am going to not only start to do this, but I'm going to master it. And it shifted everything. I started to study books about it and realized, like, wow, actually, the most effective way to do this is to do what I already love to do, which is connect with people and offer them value and find ways to build real relationships. And it's so obvious, as I say that, but when we're stuck in our stories, we can miss the obvious. And of course it's going to be awful and terrible and all these things. So when I made that decision, I'm really going to master this, all of a sudden, it became a lot more. There's a lot more energy, a lot more interest, a lot more study. And sure enough, it becomes something that I actually really enjoy.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you talk about networking, because I got to a place in my career in the psychology department where I was a full professor. And I was starting to say to myself, well, is this it? Have I reached the pinnacle? Is it all over now? And I had originally planned to be an electrical engineer way back when I got into college and the computer thing was starting to happen. The whole computer revolution, personal computers were just coming on the scene. And I was going kind of kicking myself in the head, saying, oh, My God, I should have, I should have stayed an engineer. I should have become an engineer. And one of my master's students for his master's project was running workshops on networking. And he said, hey, David, why don't you come and take my workshop? And not knowing for sure what I was dealing with, but I thought, okay, I'll do that. And so it was all about networking and the power of networking and contacting people and offering to take them to lunch and all. And that turned out to be such a powerful technology, if you will. So I started taking people out to coffee and so on and to lunch and asking them if they knew anybody who worked in the tech field that maybe I could talk to, to kind of meet them and get some ideas. Then it turned out that somebody very close to home, one of my junior colleagues in the psych department had been taking notes for a guy who did something called focus groups, market research, focus groups for Apple Computer. And so I, you know, I said, hey. Well, I had networked to so many people by that point that I, I was a little bit lazy. I said, hey, well, if you ever need somebody else to give him some help, give him my name, would you? I really should have just dug in harder there. But about six months go by, we've now had the twins and I'm freaked out about money and thinking, you know, I got to figure out ways to make more money. And I get a call from this guy, Tony Wolf, and he says, hey, I got your name from Susie. And she said that you might be interested. In what? In the consulting work that I do. And I'm doing some focus groups for Atari tomorrow night. And if you'd like to come, you know, maybe you could write the report, you could watch. Watch what I do and write the report. I said, yeah, great, I'll do that. Okay. Long story short, or somewhat shorter, I did that he had never had. It had always been a one man show for him. He brought me into the company. That was the beginning of about a. I'm still doing it some on the side. And it's been about a 30 year career on top of the other careers that I've had. Wow. Yeah. And. And another place around the whole confidence building and so on was there were times when he was, when he was first teaching me. He was very good at giving clear, straight feedback that was a little hard to swallow sometimes. Like I would have to lead a group while corporate people are watching through a one way mirror. They've spent money for us to do this research. Tony was watching in the first few groups I did, you know, and then he gave me the feedback and he basically said, that was terrible, that was really terrible, and began to give me some of the specific things. And of course I could have reared up and said, wait a second, I have a PhD in psychology and I've done this, you know, this kind of group and that kind of group. And I, you know, and I could have just gotten all defensive. And of course all of that came up inside me, but somewhere in me I found the resolution, no, I have to hear this and I have to take it in and grow from it. And I did. And the rest is history. And, you know, and I did a lot of excellent groups for huge corporate companies. And one of the things he taught me, and this comes down to the self confidence thing that we started off talking about, was I was intimidated by the titles of some of the people that I was in, both the people that I was working for, you know, CEOs and vice presidents of this and that and brand manager this and that. And I was interviewing people in the groups who often had similar high sounding titles. And so I was cowed by that. And, and Tony picked up on that and he said, look, you're, it's your group. You're the boss of the group. There's nobody that's got more authority over that group than you. You're the boss of the group. And, and so, you know, when I got that feedback, I just took that to heart. From then on, I was the boss of the group. I'm the group. I'm the, I'm the leader of the group. I'm the one who's setting the rules, and that's that. And so I, I rose to that call to have that level of confidence.

Did you ever have anyone with a higher up title challenge you in the leadership position of the group?

Not after that. Well, yeah, actually that was the group in which there was a real turnaround because I had a guy in the group who was, I think he was a manager of a computer store and he was from New York and he was a very street wise guy who was just giving me a lot of lip and making it hard for me to run the group. And one of the clients came from behind the mirror into the room and just kind of stepped in and started to lead the group. And I think the guy who was acting out, you know, named Brian, he said, hey, Brian, where I grew up, we would have played for Luci with your hat. Now that Fallujah evidently was a New York street game of playing keep away with somebody's hat. So, you know, this guy came in and just demonstrated a lot more interpersonal dominance, and the guy shut up. So, you know, I kind of. That was a difficult lesson for me to learn, but thank God that I learned it because I was able to make a lot of money over the years that I never would have made if I hadn't been able to, you know, to rise to the level of confidence that was being the demanded of me. And of course, my confidence, in fact, again, it's. It's a. Starts out as a bit of acting as if. But then it becomes internalized over time, and it becomes real.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, because how on earth would we know how to behave in a whole new way in a whole new situation if you've never done that before? And so we're gonna bring some old patterns to that situation. And then over time, though, we can. We're gonna adapt. And that's one thing that's coming through in these stories is, you know, turning towards. Instead of turning away, saying yes into something. I mean. Cause you didn't get the call and say, hey, we need this focus group for Atari. You didn't say, ah, I'm busy. I got the twins. I can't come. You said, okay, yes to this opportunity. And then being in there and then saying, yes to, okay, I'm doing it now. How do I need to be. How do I need to show up as? And that's same thing with the running of the networking group so much throughout your stories, David is like this, yes to leaping into something.

Yeah. I've learned a lot about saying yes to opportunities when they come. And it's an ongoing thing. I mean, you know, I can't say that I've totally mastered that. It still requires a reorientation, you know, to remind myself.

And so what is your. And maybe you've never actively vocalized it, but it's probably in there in your mind somewhere is your philosophy on opportunities. And, you know, because a lot of people do have opportunities in their lives, and then they're scared. They say, I don't know. I don't know if I can take that risk. What if it doesn't go well? What if I show up to this focus group and I can't do it? What if I lead to this? And what would you say is your philosophy if you could distill it down, something that you wanted to pass on to your children that you would hope that they would adopt and use in their Life when it came to opportunities and going for it, what would that message be?

Well, it would be to say yes to opportunities when they come your way. And for me, there's an added. An added thing of listening to one's intuition. There are some ways in which I've followed my intuition in my life that have led to some pretty miraculous results. That would have been from the outside, would look counterintuitive, but because I had some kind of inner guidance and I don't have a huge. A huge religious structure to account for this or supernatural structure, but there have been times when there's some other voice communicates with me. Not a voice that I hear or anything like that, but just an intuitive decision that turns out to just have magical consequences. There's a story around that. If there's time, I don't know.

Yeah, we have just a few minutes. But what a great way to conclude because I think that's such a beautiful aspect when it highlights just the mystery and the unknown and how we don't know everything's going to unfold. But if we're willing to trust in intuition, in ourselves and life, then beautiful things can happen. So what a great way to take us home.

Okay, again, this is quite a few years ago, but for two years I traded jobs and houses with a professor at the University of New Hampshire. And while I was in New Hampshire, moving to a totally different environment and so on, it really put my head in an interesting place, you know, of, wow, a whole new. Whole new palette here. Opportunities to be new ways, do new things. So one of the things that came up for me was I wanted. I decided to slay an old dragon. I mentioned that I was originally accepted into college in. I had a full scholarship in electrical engineering at the University of Pennsylvania. And I switched out of that program into creative writing, as it turns out, after the first class in calculus and I just realized I'm like, whoa, this is way over my head. I don't have enough secondary school preparation to handle this. And so I switched out of calculus. And so here I am these many years later, University of New Hampshire. And I decided, you know what? I think I'll take calculus. And you know, and see if I can slay that old dragon. And nobody needs to know that I took it. It's not going to be on my transcript anywhere. You know, if I fail, that's not going to count. Nobody's going to take away my PhD. So I feel secure. So I signed up for calculus and. And I got that head swimming experience again. Oh. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I don't know if I can follow this, but I was able to reason with myself and say, okay, let's just hang in here. You know, there's. If I fail, I fail. Let's just see what I can learn. Well, to shorten the story somewhat, I ended up getting an A in that calculus class. Because so much of the grade was based on the homework and given my own time to figure out the homework, I did very well in the homework. And so I took the second semester of calculus, and again, I got an A. So I got an A in two semesters of calculus. During the same time, I was beginning to hear. I knew that computers were becoming important, so I decided to take a course in computer programming. It turned out it was Fortran, as I recall, which was big at that time, in business. And I think I may have taken a course in basic as well. Basic programming. So I had a friend, a psychologist friend, who had been a student of mine, and I'd been on his doctoral committee. And as it happened, he was in New Hampshire at the same time that I was. And he was saying, david, why are you taking these courses in calculus and computers? You could be doing things that would further your career in psychology. You know, why are you doing that? I didn't have a good answer for him other than, I don't know. It's just something that I felt I wanted to do. Okay, skip ahead now. And it's time for me to go back to Sonoma State University to resume my job there. Turns out that California was in a fiscal crisis and they were beginning to lay off tenured professors. And then I got called in by the chair of my department, and he said, david, I have to let you know that you're on the list. You're going to receive what's called a yellow slip, that you're in danger of getting laid off. And, you know, this tenure is supposed to mean that you never have to worry about that happening. So this. This to me was a real shock and a big deal. And so, you know, so he said, you should, you know, start looking for other kinds of work or some way to supplement your income. So fortunately, one of my colleagues who was on the committee that was designed to help people cope with this situation, and somebody spoke up, maybe it was him at one of these committee meetings and said, well, they were moving qualified faculty to do some teaching in other departments. And so somebody spoke up and said, well, David took two semesters of calculus. He could teach in the math department. He also took computer courses. He could teach in the computer science department. So I ended up teaching for a number of semesters. Intermediate algebra, which I love teaching, and Introduction to computers. That saved my job, kept the income coming in, and that was a huge. A huge miracle. What part of me or what part of the universe saw around the corner when I was in New Hampshire and led me to take those classes that would totally save my bacon two years down the road?

I love that story, and it just so fits with everything you've told us because there's this willingness in you to pursue something, to step into something, and even that, even when there's not a clear, rational explanation, just because you're guided. And I feel like that's. That comes through in the way that you live your life, is that you trust in your heart and you go for it. You take that leap, you explore, and then the whys and the hows and all that become clear later. And I absolutely love it. And thank you so much for sharing openly with us in your stories. And there's so much that we can draw about how to approach life on the highest levels with. With more faith, with more trust, and with more confidence in ourselves. And if people want to go further and learn more from you, you can share a little more about your show and the best ways that people can follow your work.

Yeah, well, the best thing to do is to go to shrinkwrappradio.com that's S H R I N K R A D. No shrink rap. S H R I N K R A P R A D I O dot com, Shrink wrap radio, wherever fine podcasts can be found. And the other thing I should let you know is I started podcasting in the first year of podcasting. So I'm in my 15th year of being a podcast, which is the longest podcasts have been around, and actually received an award from APA for that. So I want to thank. I feel like I've led a blessed life and this has been a blessed opportunity to share all of this with you and to have the opportunity to rehearse it to myself again.

Yeah.

What a gift.

Thank you so much for joining us, David, and again for sharing these stories with us.

Thank you.

That brings us to the end of the episode, but before we complete, there's one more thing we gotta do, right? It's action.

Time for action. Action. Action.

Your action step for today is, I'd say, take the. What's the biggest. First of all, what's the biggest takeaway from the interview that I did with David. Because sometimes when we have to think about that and verbalize it, you know, what did I find most valuable? What is it I'm going to take away and I'm going to use today? That's the first part, but the second part is to really put that into practice. And so what opportunity in your life? What can you say yes to in your life? Or what's something that remember, like with his story with his twins, what's something that you're currently viewing as awful as a problem? Oh, this is so hard. This is terrible. It shouldn't be happening. How can you turn it around? What's the new story you're going to tell to yourself and to others? So actively come up with that and then practice telling that story to someone else today. Here's why this is a valuable opportunity for me. Here's why this is exciting. Here's what I'm looking forward to and just start to try that on, just like he did with his twins and other stories in his life, to really transform and shift things. Awesome. Thanks for being with me today. Until we speak again, may I have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the Shy Guy with Dr. Azee. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and.

Training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to social confidencecenter.com.

Sa.