The Benefits Of Shyness With Dr. Lynne Henderson

Coming to you from the center for Social Confidence in Portland, Oregon, welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy, Helping men everywhere go from social anxiety to social domination with your host, Dr. Aziz. Hey, welcome to today's show. Today we're going to look at something that you may have never looked at before. And you may have been dealing with shyness or social fears or wanting to build confidence for years, and you may have never looked at things in this way. And when you do, you can notice a profound shift in how you feel about yourself and what that allows you to do in the world. It's kind of a paradox, but here's what it is. The benefits of shyness, the upsides, the pros, the strengths of shyness, because we tend to focus on the downsides, right? How it's getting in the way, how it's blocking you, how it sucks, how it's annoying. You get frustrated at the situation. You probably get frustrated at yourself. But when we do that, we actually keep ourselves stuck even more. Because the reality is shyness itself is not the problem. It's not this sort of disease that you have to somehow extricate, extract cut out from your nervous system. Really, the problem is not the shyness. That little bit of inhibition or maybe that tendency to be a little more reserved. That's not the problem. The problem is the way you treat yourself in your mind about the shyness. And if you listen to these podcasts, you've been getting that theme that it's the way that I talk to myself, it's the way that I tell myself I'm pathetic, I'm a loser, I'm a jerk, I'm a weirdo. That is the biggest inhibiting factor. That's what leads to all the discomfort. In fact, you're gonna learn some fascinating stuff in an interview that I do with Dr. Lynn Henderson, who is the founder of the Shyness Institute. She is a big player in this area. She's been doing this stuff since the 70s, maybe earlier. I mean, she's been really researching this stuff at high levels at Stanford and other universities to get real data, real fascinating stuff. And you're gonna see, as we talk, she shares a lot about what she's come across, not only in her own work with people, but in the research. She's a. I got a lot of ideas about this, and that's one of the things that she teaches, is that we have to learn how to accept the benefits of shyness. So you're going to learn a lot more about that in a moment. But let's take a second to really think about what these benefits are. Oh, and by the way, if you want to jump into the conversation, I'm getting some great messages from people. You can call the studio hotline at 206-338-3176. You can also go to shrinkforthshyguy.com and leave me a message on that site. I listen to them. I love them. They're fantastic. I'm gonna start including more of them into the show so it can be more of a conversation. So as I stalled there, did you think of any benefits of shyness? None. There's absolutely none. It sucks. Well, think about it for a second. What are the strengths of shyness? What are the benefits of it? You know, sometimes people that are shy tend to be very emotionally or socially aware of what's going on. They tend to be very emotionally intelligent, tend to be more collaborative, kind, receptive, better listeners. Any of these describing you? If you're saying, nah, nothing, then could they describe you if you were giving yourself some credit? Another thing that shy people tend to be, which is very positive, is sensitive. Now, I used to think. I used to not like that word. I'm a man. And as a man, being sensitive can be considered bad. In fact, my wife would say that when we first met and we were dating. She's like, wow, you're so sensitive. She'd be meaning it like a compliment, and my eyes would kind of squint down. I'd be like, sensitive, Eh, Eh. She's like, what? I'm like, I don't. No man wants to be called sensitive. And she's like, no, it's actually a really good thing. You feel the world around you and you feel me and you're aware, and you tune in. I'm like, yeah, well, maybe you should call it something else, like perceptive or aware. That sounds more manly. She's like, no, but that's not what it is. It's sensitive. It's like, ugh. All right, but flash forward maybe, what, three years now, and I really get it. I mean, it's one of my deepest strengths is, like, I'm sensitive. I can feel things deeply. That's what helps me connect with people and help people. So what is that for you? That's just to plant a seed. As I talk with Lynn here in a moment, I want you to be thinking about this. Don't just be listening passively to the interview. Be thinking about you and your life and your strengths and the benefits of shyness in you and how you can start to accept those things and then still move forward. You don't want to be restricted in your life, but at the same time, you don't want to be criticizing yourself for something that's just maybe how your nervous system responds to the world. So without further ado, let's jump in to that interview with the great Dr. Lynn Henderson.

Expert interview.

Welcome back to today's guest Expert Interview. I'm incredibly excited to speak with Lynn Henderson, Ph.D. she is truly an expert when it comes to helping people overcome shyness and social anxiety and challenges with confidence and being themselves in the world. She has a wealth of experience. She's the director of a number of organizations that are designed to help people, including the Shyness Institute and the Shyness Clinic, both located in the Bay Area in California. She is a visiting scholar and has been a lecturer in a variety of schools, including Stanford University in the Bay Area. And she's the director of the Social Fitness Center. She's also written a number of books and training manuals, including the Compassionate Mind Guide to Building Social Confidence. And I have learned a tremendous amount from her. I actually did some work at the Shyness Clinic in Palo Alto and worked with one of her training manuals and learned so much. And some of the work that I do with people directly comes from what I learned from her. So thank you so much for joining us today, Lynn. Thank you.

Oh, I'm glad to be here, Atiz. And the only thing I would like to do is just correct a couple of small things. I'm no longer the director of the Shyness Clinic. I am the director of the Shyness Institute. And I was a visiting scholar at Stanford until about 2007. So I am now in Berkeley in private practice doing the same kinds of things. And I still direct the Shyness Institute.

Oh, great. In fact, I'd like to hear a little more about. Let's just jump in with that. The Shyness Institute. What is that and what is it designed to do?

Well, it's basically research in public education. So the major research project I have going on now is a study of shy leaders. I worked at the clinic for many years with shy clients. I became very impressed with their strengths, with their strengths, as a matter of fact, and their vulnerabilities. And I got curious about leadership. There was a book called From Good to Great that came out, and it showed that CEOs who had guided their companies through times of intense change and become incredibly successful after that were shy. They were called diffident and things like that. And the fellow who was running the research study, Jim Collins, didn't believe it when the students, his research assistants came back and told him that. So he actually told them to go back and check again. And they were indeed somewhat shy. And I got very serious about that and doing this interview study of shy leaders. And they do tend to lead from behind, empower their people because they don't care about the spotlight themselves. And so they're very good at helping other people shine. They tend to be excellent listeners. You probably saw this yourself at the clinic. Very considerate of other people often and quite collaborative rather than highly competitive. And of course, because they don't lead for the spotlight, they often lead because they really care about a cause or they care about something. So that's sort of our findings so far in that study. But that's the primary study, and then it includes public education. So whatever we can do to help spread the word about how workable shyness is and also to empower people who see themselves as shy. Because shyness wasn't negatively stereotyped as a personality trait until after about the 50s. Often, I think around the fact that our society became more and more competitive and individualistic and self presentation became so important that we sort of became a more narcissistic society. And that's when people who were quieter, I think, got more negatively stereotyped.

Interesting. Yeah. Which leads into something that you do, a lot of focus in your work is helping people realize that this is not some horrible defect or flaw in themselves to feel shy or inhibited in some ways. And can you say a little more about that, about helping people let go of shame around feeling shy?

Oh, that's a good question. It's the reason that I developed the idea of social fitness is because as I was seeing the strengths of the people as they interacted in groups, they thought they didn't have social skills, and in fact they did. When they weren't uncomfortable in the spotlight, they often just demonstrated superior social skills. And so what I realized in treating them was, oh my goodness, this is really interesting. We all have temperaments to manage. Some of us talk too much sometimes and interrupt. I sometimes struggle with that one. Others talk, could benefit from speaking more and the rest of us could benefit from that. But social fitness is just like physical fitness. You can't work out once a month and be in good physical shape. And you can't work out once a month and be in good social shape. So it just involves practicing every day and getting coaching when you need it. And for me, that was a much better model for working with shyness because I see it as a health maintenance or sports model.

Yeah. Can you say more about that? So what is social fitness? What would that look like? Because we all, everyone can relate to physical fitness. Everyone knows. Well, there's jogging, biking, running, weights.

We.

What would the examples of social fitness be?

I'm glad that you said that because that's one of the things we emphasized at the clinic is that not everybody wants to run marathons. But you can hike, you can play tennis, you can do all sorts of different activities in physical fitness. And you can with shyness too. Somebody may never like huge parties, but they may like small gatherings. They may be very good at one on one friendships. And you might like to hike with people, you might like to go to the theater with people. There are many different kinds of activities that you can do with people too. Just like some people aren't as fond of huge lectures, but they do better in small group interaction when they learn. And so a lot of it was what we niche picking and that was not our term. I can't remember who coined that term in personality theory, I think years ago. But the idea that often people who are socially skilled are good nitpickers. They find the places that they like to be that they feel most comfortable or that they think they're going to get the most benefit from, even if they have to push themselves to development skills. So the idea was if there was, say you got a promotion at work and all of a sudden you had to give talks. Well, public speaking is the number one fear in America ahead of death. So most people need coaching or practice with friends or people who are experienced public speakers. So everybody can do that. You can become socially fit by getting coaching and that sort of thing to be in the environment and do the things that you want to do. And the important thing we tried to do at the clinic, and I thought this was very important, the questions we asked were who do you want to be? How do you want to be? That's the secret of going where you really want to go. And in those years I wasn't as familiar with act therapy. And of course that's one of the basic tenants of act acceptance and commitment therapy is that you behave in accordance with your goals or your values. So your preferred direction in life is based on what you care about, what you want to contribute. And when you think of things that way, it's a natural motivator. So it's not that you don't get anxious that we all don't get anxious that we don't get scared. We just do what we care about doing and we learn the skills that we need to learn in order to do that.

Absolutely. I think that's a very important distinction, and I think that comes from act as well, is instead of saying, I will do the things that I am drawn towards when my anxiety goes away, it's find the things that you're drawn towards and learn how to do them in spite of the anxiety. Withholding while holding the anxiety.

Exactly. You do it in the face of the anxiety and the anxiety does taper off later on. But that's not the most important thing. The important thing is you're also getting the enjoyment and the inspiration and all the good things about what you're doing. And you also get a chance to be rewarded because you're out there. And you have a chance to be reinforced for what you're doing, which really increases your motivation.

We're going to pause the interview here and take a quick break and then jump back in to HEAR More from Dr. Lynn Henderson. The other day I was at the supermarket and I saw this cute guy in the produce aisle. I was hoping he would come and talk to me. I gave him all the signals. I looked at him for a second to get his attention. I stood nearby pretending to look at some apples, and I even smiled at him as I walked by. He just looked nervous, averted his eyes and turned away. It was almost as if he wanted to talk to me, but just didn't know what to say or do. It was a shame, too. I was really hoping to meet him. I've been feeling lonely recently. Are you tired of being that guy? I personally spent many years in that place where there was women everywhere around me that would have dated me if I just had the courage to go talk to them. And that is the same that is true for you. Even if you think you're too short or too fat or not rich enough, that is all just stories in your head. And if you want to learn how to transform that and break through to the next level and create the relationship that you really want just by being yourself, then go to www.and get started today. And so let's look at some of the things that get in the way from someone engaging in social fitness. Because from what I've seen, both in my own experience of working with my own shyness and then in anyone that I've seen in that clinic, anyone I've worked with, is that when someone really jumps in and starts doing the social fitness, they notice positive shifts. It's almost surprising. It's like, wow, this can change. But the biggest obstacle, I think, is what stops people from really engaging in the practice. And there are a few that I see all the time. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you help people work with these. The first one is, oh, man, I don't. The rejection that I feel or get, you know, if I get rejected, it feels so bad that I don't think I can handle it. I don't want to do this. It's too much.

That's a really good point. Asis, I think, as I was. We had always thought that it was fear that held people back. But as you say, once you start doing things, you can often really enjoy. Enjoy them. But as we're learning anything and as we're experimenting with anything, there are rejections, there are failures. There are. And I realized that the most important emotion in shyness was not fear, but it was shame. It was what happened after social situations. And we developed a set of challenges to those negative beliefs, because what would happen afterward is somebody would say, well, see, I really am inadequate. I really can't do this. And the shame is so painful that with fear, you can sort of psych yourself up like athletes do, to do what you need to do. But with shame, we all want to go sit in a corner and suck our thumbs. We don't want to come out. And so we learn to help people challenge. We call them negative attributions. Because what would happen, and the research was showing me this when I was at Stanford and I was studying social science as a visiting scholar, is that when shy people failed or thought they failed socially, when an interaction just didn't go as well as they wanted it to, instead of saying, oh, well, that's both our responsibility, they would say, it's all my responsibility. Even if they were in a group of five people and the conversation petered out, they'd find a way to take responsibility for it. And that was called attribution style, how you assign responsibility for things that don't work out as well as you hope. And the research was showing that people who labeled themselves as shy would blame themselves. And it was counter to what they call the self enhancement bias. The self enhancement bias is something that particularly white males in Western cultures learn to develop in very competitive societies. If anything went wrong, you blame the situation or somebody else. If something went well, you took credit for it. And it makes sense because what you were doing was you were maintaining your own motivation. It wasn't always nice for the people around you and for your subordinates. So it doesn't. The self enhancement bias doesn't work super well in the long run, but you could see why people developed it in the small in the short run. And now what the research is showing is a balanced attribution style is better. You take responsibility for the things that you can control, but you don't take responsibility for the things that you can't. So. That was one of the major things that we wanted people to be able to work on. So when something went wrong, rather than blaming themselves and feeling shame, we'd say, well, could there be any other explanations? Just like you challenged the usual thoughts that people would get before situations, could there be any other explanations? Could be there the reason, you know, for your blaming yourself? Well, I'm in the habit of blaming myself. Well, could there be any other explanation for the fact that the conversation didn't go as well as you hoped? Well, maybe the other person may have felt a little bit shy too. Maybe we were both struggling a little bit for something to say. So that proved very useful because I realized that was much more often holding people back than the fear and they could help each other. I mean, I know I think you had mentioned at one point something about group being helpful. And I think that's one of the things that could make the group helpful is people could really see it with each other. They could see that somebody who'd done a good job in a role play was being hard on themselves and so they could help them with a more realistic assessment. But the person themselves also then learned to challenge the automatic thought so they wouldn't be so hard on themselves. And that's kind of what led me into the study of compassion is because I realized that they were struggling so hard with that and they were so self critical that that had to be something that in order to kind of soothe the emotions state, even though they changed their thoughts, they sometimes felt badly. So in order to change the emotional state, then we began to use things like mindfulness meditation techniques and then deliberate exercises around compassion. So let me back up, this is a little circuitous. But in addition to the shame and self belief, sometimes what would happen is when people felt really badly like that, they'd often have automatic thoughts about other people, but they were different than the ones they had about themselves. Negative automatic thoughts about themselves could be I'm not good enough or I'm inadequate or no one will ever like me. But automatic thoughts about others could be well, they're inconsiderate, they don't care. They're not going to make sense for me. Don't gossip about me. And Len Horowitz was a professor at Stanford and he collected these negative statements that people would say about other people. And then we developed a questionnaire for that that we tested at Stanford and then at the clinic. And we did find that five clients scored higher on that questionnaire than the average college student or even the shy college students did. So that those kind of automatic thoughts were then related to resentment. So you could really get. That's how I came to the three vicious cycles of working with shyness is that there's the fight flight or the fear flight. And then there's the afterward, there's the shame and self blame. And then the third vicious cycle can be resentment and blaming other people. And so you can challenge. Then we developed challenging questions for those too. Do I know for certain that somebody's really like that? Could there be other explanations for what I saw? You know, and another explanation might be that person, again might feel a little bit shy themselves, so they might look a little aloof or I don't really know that that person was judging me. What do I really have to support the idea that people gossip? Well, I don't know. It's my fear. Well, is there a way you could test that out? So we worked with all three of those vicious cycles and I think often you often have to get to all three. And some people have more or less in any particular area. But did that answer the question? That was a very long answer, absolutely.

And it raised so many other interesting points. I mean, some of the main things that I hear in there is how when we attribute everything to ourselves, it becomes really hard to see accurately what's happening. And I know this blew me away when I used to. You know, when you're sort of in this life of shyness, you tend to say, well, everyone else out there has got this handled and I'm just this kind of weirdo who can't do this. There's something wrong with me. And so anytime I interact with someone, if it didn't go well, I'd say, well, that's because I'm the weirdo. But then as I started to do the social fitness and really practice, I realized that other people, even people who don't really consider themselves shy, can be uncomfortable or nervous in a new interaction. And I remember for the first time I was interacting with a woman that I was attracted to and I could perceive that she was nervous talking to me, and it kind of blew me away. It was like, wait a minute. Oh, wow. Oh, okay. And I think that's when I saw that attribution style that you're talking about is. And that's a really key piece that I think can really help people shift to a more accurate perception Then. I really love what you're saying about compassion. I have a number of things I want to ask you about that. And then the last thing about the resentment that builds, I think that is so important to see because there's kind of. We attack ourselves, and it feels really bad to stay in that place of self blame, and we kind of flip into other blame to almost get some relief, but then.

Exactly.

We still are creating this distance, and we still don't feel good about ourselves. So the one question I had which relates to that is, I see a real common pattern in shyness is, okay, there's something wrong with me is sort of the default assumption. And therefore, I'm gonna be perfect or I'm gonna look perfect. And then that can also flip, though, where someone's like, oh, other people need to be perfect as well. That's sort of the resentment part. But how. How do you help someone who's operating with that strategy? Because I think it's really common as a way of trying to deal with shyness is just to try to be perfect all the time.

Right, Right. Well, one of the things that we sort of have on our side is that the research has shown.

What. What does the research show? Tell me now. But unfortunately, we're at the end of our time. So that's what we call a cliffhanger in the biz. Get you interested. Hope we get you listening for the next show. But I want to save just a minute here at the end for what we always end with, which is your action step. Time for action. Today's action step is to take what you've learned to day and turn it towards yourself and ask yourself this question. What are my strengths? What are the benefits of shyness? For me, what are my strengths? That might come from shyness might come from a different area of your life. What benefits come from this shy side of your personality? You might have spent years battling it and making it wrong and judging it and judging yourself. Let's turn that corner. Let's shift this right now. You always have a choice to do that. You always, always have a choice of how you relate to yourself. Even if you've beaten yourself up for 30 years, you can make a choice right now. As you're listening to me, to say these words and just decide in yourself, resolve in yourself, commit to yourself that you are going to start finding your strengths, looking at the benefits of this shy side of your personality, and ultimately treating yourself with more respect, kindness, acceptance and love. So that's your action step for today. By all means, let me know how it goes. Go to the website, leave me a message. Leave me a comment shrinkforthshyguy.com Share these episodes with anyone that you think could benefit from them so we can spread the message so no one remains stuck in shyness. That's my big mission and I want you to get on board with me for that so we can help as many people as possible. Thanks so much for listening. Next episode we're going to get into the rest of our interview with Dr. Lynn Henderson and you're going to learn about the fascinating science, the brain research of compassionate imagery, how to really transform the way you relate to yourself on a neurological level. Thanks for listening. I really enjoy sharing with you and I look forward to hearing from you. And until we speak again, may you have the courage to be who you are and to know that you're awesome. Thanks for listening. Listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Aziz if you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free vlogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to socialconfidencecenter.com.

Sam.