Truth In Dating with Dr. Susan Campbell

Coming to you from the center for Social Confidence in Portland, Oregon, welcome to Shrink for the Shy guy Helping men everywhere go from social anxiety to social domination with your host, Dr. Aziz.

Welcome to our show and thanks for tuning in. I'm excited to be with you here today and I'm so curious about how your progress is coming. If this is the first episode that you're tuning into, then I strongly encourage you to, to go back to the very beginning where we talk about what is social anxiety, what is confidence, what are the basic steps you can take. And if you've been with me on this journey over these last months, then I really want to know how it's going for you. Where are you progressing? Where are your wins and successes and where are you stuck? Where you want more help, where you want to know where a new distinction is that you can learn that's going to help you get to the next level or perhaps a new action that you need to take. It's gonna build up that confidence and courage. Best way to keep me posted is call the show hotline, 206-338-3176 or go to shrinkforthshyguy.com send me a message through the site. I love reading those. I can get emails there, you can leave me a voicemail there and we can just stay in touch. Cause I wanna know how this is working for you. You specifically, you matter to me. And I wanna make sure that this stuff is helping you along your way. I and also to further help you along your way, today we're going to finish up our amazing interview with Dr. Susan Campbell where we're getting, you know, she was talking about authenticity with me last week, how to be your real self. Now we're directing that towards dating and relationships because so much of us have this fear. Right. I did for years of if I'm my real self around an attractive woman. Yeah, that's going to end quick. And we want to learn how to shift that, how to find that real self, not that nice guy self that you're just trying to get her approval and. And not you trying to put on some pickup artist thing, but just your real authentic self and how easy that can be in some ways. So let's jump back into that interview with Dr. Susan Campbell now.

Expert interview.

But I think one challenge that a number of the guys that I work with experience is they're sort of self identified as the nice guy. They've watched something or read something that kind of speaks to them. They're like, oh, that is me. And so they tend to, especially with everyone, but especially with a woman they're attracted to. They will be cordial and nice and polite and non offensive and ask her questions and be interested in her and share about themselves. And from their perspective, be fully honest and kind. And then at the end of the date or the phone call, the next time they talk to her after the date, they get a pretty clear indication or she even will upright tell them, you know, I see us more as friends or I don't see this going any further. And then they're so frustrated and they say, I was being myself and how come it's not working. And I'm wondering if you have thoughts on what's happening there, like what is blocking the connection from flourishing.

You know, that nice guy pattern, it may feel like just who you are, but if, I mean, being kind is one thing, but the nice guy pattern is what we're talking about here. We're talking about almost like compulsive niceness. You know, you just go through life that way and you don't differentiate much from somebody you know and say, well, have you thought about it this way? You know, that would be the that. I mean, you can still be nice when you say to a woman, but have you thought about it this way? Or hey, that's not quite the same as what you said over here. You know, like being willing to point out, you know, just little discrepancies in a, you know, in the way the conversation is flowing. So what I want to ask these nice guys is where are you at with risking emotional pain? Because I think that the emotional pain theory applies particularly to the nice guys in the world. In other words, they haven't mastered the ability to step into a situation where the results might be unpredictable or possibly painful. And, and so it bears looking into, it bears looking into what's your investment in being good and nice? Like what would happen if you weren't and what. A lot of the nice boys were good boys with their parents and maybe there was a sneaky side to them that, you know, did, let's say more individuated things. But they often in front of people, or not just parents, but you know, school authorities, whatever, you know, they developed a Persona to get along and there was some part of themselves that got pushed underground. So you nice guys, it really.

It.

Bears fruit if you'll look into what your fears are about emotional pain and where this might have come from. And perhaps you were so successful at being the good boy that you never ever, you never even Developed something else, you know, a, A deeper feeling about life. And so that, you know, there's a complicated situation here. There's not a one size fits all, but the closest to one size fits all answer that I could give is look into what's my relationship to emotional pain? Am I afraid of being abandoned, rejected, controlled, ignored, shamed, overwhelmed, inadequate? These are some of the commonest fears that human beings carry. And those are just labels. But one of those labels might speak to you. And so if one of those labels, you know, fear of being rejected or fear of being ignored or insignificant or something, if one of those speaks to you, begin to be curious about how that's showing up in various parts of your life. Because the nice guy Persona, what you're showing people of yourself, is just the tip of the iceberg. And maybe you don't even know what's underneath the water in your own iceberg. So I would say you need to get to know yourself and more of your aspects if you're going to become a more interesting person.

Absolutely. I think there's so much good stuff there. And one major thing that you said that really just resonated with me is that it is a Persona. It is a pattern that someone runs because it's effective at some point in their life. But then it gets, you know, as a Persona being the mask, the mask gets fused to their face where they think that's who they are. And I definitely, I mean, I asked this question from a place of curiosity for the people that I work with, but also I experienced that exact scenario that I described about thinking I was being honest and being myself and being really nice. And just like you said, I didn't even know what else was there. So it's like, not only am I hiding it from others, but I'm hiding it from myself.

And you know that Triskill revising can be used here to develop the deeper parts of yourself. If after an interaction you realize that maybe you kind of seem to, I'll give you one example, kind of seem to agree you're smiling and nodd with something, but later on you have some, almost like critique of what the other person said or some differentiation, some way that you are actually seeing something from a unique perspective that's not the same as this person that you were smiling and nodding to. If you can get. Now if you see this, it would be better if it's an ongoing friendship where you agree with some person or some people in your. It could even be some male friends. You agree that if you see Yourself kind of holding back on anything that differentiates you from the other, that you'll go back and revise. You'll say, you know, we had that conversation. And you know, I didn't. There was some way. I didn't want to seem picky at the time, but, you know, a picky thought came up to me, and I want to mention it now because you need that. You guys who are nice guys, you need the practice in saying something that's not in agreement or not in perfect total harmony with what's in front of you. So if you can find a differentiating comment, go back and say it later. Now, in a dating situation, that would not probably be that appropriate, but find somebody in your world that. I call them practice partners. And I say to learn these truth skills and to learn to be a more honest human being, you need one or two willing practice partners, or maybe a men's group or something where you agree to revise some of your nice guy behavior after the fact.

Yeah, you agree to be able to disagree. I know one practice that I did, which I encourage people to do when they're ready to kind of build up that ability because I really think it's like a muscle and it can be really atrophied and you need to kind of. It takes, it's like little bits of exposure work to find opportunities to create a little friction. If there's no friction ever, then you're not really being a full differentiated person. You're just kind of conforming, like a chameleon to everyone. And so one practice that I did, which is you look for an opportunity once a day to literally say the phrase I disagree. And the reason I had that is because I was like, well, okay, I can challenge someone's perspective or offer something different, but I don't want to say I disagree. I mean, that's pretty. That's going to ruffle some feathers. And as I did it, I found that you can say it in such a way that it doesn't even. You just say, wait, I disagree, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was really not a big deal, but it was a major step for me. There's one question I want to ask about what you said. And this gets into the world of if you go to the Internet, if you're a guy, and you say, I want to learn how to meet women, you're going to find pickup artist teachings. And I think they provide something valuable for two things. One, they encourage you to, hey, just get out there and practice. Which is great advice. But the other, another thing they do is provide you a way to be more differentiated, to not be a nice guy. But then what comes with that, I think can be a whole new Persona that is not authentic. And so here's what kind of an encapsulation of nice guy.

You substitute tough guy or something, but go ahead. I like where you're going.

So it's like one thing is, well, here's sort of the tenants or ideas about how to be, you know, if being the nice guy and sharing all your common interests and being really attentive, that's not working. So here's what we need to do. You need to be more mysterious. You need a challenge. You need to be a challenge. You need to like, you know, flirt with her and then move away and let her come after you. You need to be unpredictable. So one time she comes and sits on your lap or something, you hug her. And another time you get up and you push her off. And make sure you kind of tease her a lot and let her know she's kind of working for your affection. This is sort of one of the main approaches of that. And in a lot of ways it's effective, I've seen. But I also think that there's like when I've been working with men, I think there's a better way, but also there's how to capture the essence of that, but also not doing it in a way that feels like kind of gamey or inauthentic in a different way.

Yeah, it's possible that when that keep them off balance approach, that advice, keep the woman guessing. It's possible that when that works, it works because it gives the guy permission to actually say something that he's really feeling. And so how about if you just give yourself more permission to say what you're really feeling, you know, skip the pat answers and the pat rules for the new way to be. How to be cool, how to be mysterious. Skip the rules and do something though that's more genuine to be differentiated. And I think the I disagree comment is one. And we could brainstorm some things right now is these. Another one that I can think of is being able to say, oh, I noticed that you're looking at the floor while you're talking at me, talking to me. Just being able to say something very present centered about what you notice, risking that it might create discomfort in the other person. Because when people get noticed with a refined eye, like, you know, like you're able to actually see the other person, you're not. So you're not so nervous in your own self and so self preoccupied that you can't see her. So if you say things that you notice about the other person, just objective reporting, like a video camera, that gets her attention. That gives you the risk of doing something that might make the other person uncomfortable. But like it's pretty safe and it brings you more into the present moment. So I think that's like a really good tool. I have a whole chapter called Flirting with Presence. You know, just saying something about your present observation is hugely powerful for women.

Absolutely. And I think one thing you said in there just tied so many things together for me. We're gonna pause for just one moment right now and take a quick break and then get back to the conclusion of our interview with Dr. Susan Campbell.

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You said doing something willing to take the risk that might make the other person feel a little discomfort. And I think that is the whole key of it, is that when you're in the nice guy role, you are consciously or unconsciously, all of you is focused on making sure she does not feel any discomfort. And the only way to do that.

Really backfire on you because you become boring.

You become so boring and you're not yourself. Versus if you said something or pointed something out or were present or expressed a thought that you had or commented on a thing in her that you find attractive or you know, kind of played with her, teased her about something because she, you know, contradicted herself or any of those things, you risk her feeling some discomfort. Yeah. And yet those are the things that make the interaction exciting or fun or engaging or genuine.

That's true. And again, you might use the revising truth skill is a little bit like doing a Monday morning quarterback on your date. Let's say you have a date or you just have an interaction or you have an evening where you've met three different women or something or a day. Monday morning quarterback is when the team looks at what they did on the Sunday game and says, well, you Know, you should have gone long here and you should have done this and so forth. And so now we say that to ourself. But what we do, then we don't have to go back and revise it. The occasion probably isn't going to present itself, but we realize, oh, these are actual things that I thought but inhibited because I didn't want to make the other person uncomfortable. So you want to look for those. When you do a Monday morning quarterback on your date, you look for the things that were somewhere down there, maybe just under the surface. They didn't come up because of your nice guy habit or your other habits of not wanting to offend. And you repeat those inside and you go, okay, that was an actual thing that I noticed that I inhibited. And honor. Honor those things and begin to imagine yourself saying more of those things. And that is an effective behavior change tool. If you can imagine yourself saying it next time or the time after that, you're getting closer and closer to being able to actually do the behavior in real time.

Absolutely. I mean, I think there's so much good stuff there about how to. That idea of flirting with presence and being in the moment and just maybe a few basic things you might share for listeners. And I'm going to strongly encourage people, if you're interested in dating and creating authentic relationships, any of your books are going to do, but especially the Truth in Dating is a fantastic read. So if someone wants to go much deeper, they should get that book. But just to give a little insight, what would that look like to start a. Let's say a man sees a woman that he wants to start a conversation with. He doesn't know her, and it's in a public setting like a bookstore or a coffee shop or even on, you know, on a busy sidewalk. And he's like, wow, I really want to meet her, but oh, geez, I don't have any reason to talk to her. And you know, what about emotional pain? But let's say he wants to take a risk.

He's willing to face up to his possible emotional pain. Okay, so what would he do?

Yeah, how could someone.

How would he make that initial approach? Just using his either. So here's what we're talking about. Just using what's going on in you, the man right now, or what you see in the woman right now, or what you observe about your situation. So I remember one time I was in a long line at the post office and, oh, I'm standing there, and I was single at the time, and there was an attractive man right behind me. You know, women need these techniques, too, but, you know, pretend like, you know, I'm the man. Okay, so there's an attractive woman right behind you. And the context is they've got one person at the window. So the line is just getting longer and longer. It's like a Friday afternoon or something. So you just, like, say something about the environment. I happen to have a fairly fluent sense of humor, I guess. And I said, well, next time I come on a Friday afternoon, I'll bring my sleeping bag. And then he cracked up. And a couple people around cracked up. But just making a comment about the setting is also possible just to. But you say it as a kind of a. You know, you can say that to anybody. So that's one. You. You gave a good one when. When you were talking about, you know, your handshaking. You can go up to somebody and say, you know, as soon as I noticed you, my heart started beating faster, so I thought I better come over and talk to you so I can find out what that's about. You know, I mean, that's. That's something that's true. It's intriguing to some women. Like, wow, that's bold.

That's different.

Man comes right up to me and says his heart started beating. Maybe I better pay attention here. Maybe this is a message. So there's that. Then there's the. So there's the setting you can comment on. There's your own, like, what's going on in your body, Your body awareness or even a thought you had. I looked at you and, oh, you. You look like somebody. Well, first, this is more about the other person. Now you look like somebody that I would want to know. Oh, do you know, do you have. Would you be willing to, you know, after you check out, you know, sit outside for a few minutes and have a chat? You know, you make, you know, you make a bid. You're making a bid for, like, an.

Action, you know, I love it because I think there's gotta be some people listening who hear that. And there's this sort of like, oh, my God, I. No way. You know, absolutely for sure she's gonna think I'm. And then insert your fear there. I'm needy or desperate. And my response is, first of all, wow, you are being different. And, you know, if you're the nice guy approach is not working. And it's trying to be like everyone else. And so, wow, you're being different, but you're not being different. Some kind of weird pickup way where you're trying to act the cool guy. You're being different by being yourself. And when you're fully being yourself, you are different because you're unique. And, man, I found things were a lot easier when I just started with this approach, because the typical approach to dating, which I'm sure you've, you know, see a lot of, is like, I'm gonna keep my cards really close to my chest. I'm gonna be really cool or really attractive or really amazing and not reveal anything unpleasant and wait for them to take the risks. And then down the road, when we sleep together or we want to be in a relationship, then I can let some stuff slide out. But this is really coming at it from a way of like, well, what if I just be authentic from the beginning and I don't have to kind of dance around it like, wow, I noticed you. I want to have a conversation with you. And I found when I started doing that, the results were powerful and quick. It just became a lot easier to meet people, and the world became a more accessible, friendly place. And I think the biggest thing is just a willingness to try it, a courage to try it. So maybe as we get close to the end of our time here, do you have any thoughts on the courage piece? The courage to be vulnerable, the courage to be honest? If someone's on board with what you're saying and they're like, yeah, that sounds intriguing. But then there's that. There's that fear that they need to work with or overcome. What thoughts do you have on how to build that courage?

Yeah, well, I have a vision, like you, Aziz, of making the world a friendlier place and particularly making the dating world a friendlier place. And what if you, as a dating single person, didn't put quite. I mean, this is a little bit of. You have to coach yourself, put quite so much attachment to how it's going to come out. You kind of make that your growth goal. To. How about if I just try to be friendly? Like, what if I didn't see this person as a possible candidate for dating? What if it was just somebody in the post office line that I was saying something warm and friendly to, like, do whatever you can to kind of lower the stakes in your own mind of the outcome, realizing that friendliness and, like, you look like a nice person, and I thought I might want to talk to you and see if we had anything in common. I mean, that is just an innocent, friendly thing, but we put so much heaviness on it around. Oh, the stakes. If she says no that means that I'm going to get no's for the rest of my life, that this dating thing is hopeless and I'm a failure. So there is a little bit of inner coaching or at least having an aim. You have to do these practices that aren't always easy, but remember that the aim is to be a more relaxed. To have a more relaxed, friendly world and somehow take it a little bit beyond your own ego. We can contribute to making the dating world safer. Because right now, it just breaks my heart how many people say to me things like, it's a jungle out there. I hear that phrase and it just makes me want to cry. So think of yourself as a friendliness ambassador. You have to take risks, though. You can't just be nice guy friendly, but I just see an interesting person and I want to go up and talk to him, and I can't say anything that's going to completely take away the pain. What you need to do, like we've been saying, is take on a genuine curiosity about the fact that you have fears and what they're about, and then a tenderness toward that part of yourself that does fear emotional pain, because that's probably going to be there all your life. So you might. You might as well learn to be with that part of yourself. Be gentle with it.

Absolutely. I mean, there's always the next level. It's funny how when I work with people and they're really struggling to maybe even make friends or date, and then they start to. And then it's like, wow, this is great. And then, oh, wait, now there's like the intricacy of creating a dating relationship and the stakes, you know, there's more potential for pain now. I really love her. What happens if something happens now or, you know, even at the highest level, I have a strongly committed relationship with my wife, and now we have a kid. But then there's always the reality of, well, we're gonna die. And so there's always that level of something. There is pain out there. It's part of life. But I hear the message loud and clear, is you have to jump in. You have to get into the field and play, and you will get hurt, but you're also gonna be fully alive. And I love that. Being like a friendliness ambassador is like turning it from like, I'm doing something weird or wrong to, wow, I'm actually being the way in the world that I want the world to be. And if someone is not able to do that or wanting to do that, that's okay. They're not able to meet me there, but I've done nothing wrong. If anything, perhaps they're struggling to be authentic themselves in their life and it just totally flips the script and gives you a lot more power. So I just love that message of inspiration.

And remember also, most approaches are, you know, most approaches you make with most people, they shouldn't. They're not meant to go on very long. I mean, you know, it's like there's not going to be like a perfect match between you and a lot of these people. And most dating relationships are not going to go beyond three months of dating because once you get to know each other, you might not be about the same thing or you might not be at the same level of awareness. And so you can't talk to each other if you're not at the same level of consciousness. So those things are important. So keep in mind too, that you're not just being judged by the other. You're assessing what is the appropriate relationship for these two people. And most of the time it is friends rather than husband, wife, or something going through life together. So there's going to be a lot of no's and for good reason, because not every two people are a perfect match. So that sort of has to be taken in stride as well.

Absolutely. And I feel like there's. You seem like a fascinating person. I feel like we've just scratched the surface of everything. You have to share. And so if someone listening wants to. To go deeper, wants to learn more about your thoughts, how can they find you, connect with you, and you can share a little more about ways people can learn from you?

Well, if you go to susancampbell.com that's my website, you can click the link right at the top of the page where it says something about if you want to develop boldness and self confidence, you click that link and you'll get a. A free excerpt from my book about building self confidence that has quite a bit of the stuff that you and I have been talking about in it. So you'll get a free ebook sent to your inbox. It actually comes to me and I have to send it. So it might take 24 hours to get to your inbox. And you'll be subscribed to my newsletter, Getting Real with Susan Campbell. And then when you get my newsletter, you'll see that I have a free group coaching call once a month that people can just ask me questions. So I like to be accessible to people. Of course, I give workshops and seminars and private coaching too. But there's things you can do that don't cost a dime too, just to get you started on this path. And of course, get the book Truth in Dating. That's an amazing book. And even if you're not dating, even if you're already a couple, you should be practicing that stuff. It's all about how to build a solid, secure inner sense of yourself while building a solid, secure, honest, intimate relationship.

Good stuff. Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing so many useful, helpful insights. And I just appreciate your sense of humor and clarity with all this stuff. So thank you so much.

Okay. I enjoyed talking to you a lot, Aziz, so carry on your good work too.

That brings us to the end of the interview and the end of our show. But we can't end without doing one thing, which is your action step.

Time for action.

Today's action step is to be more real with someone in your life, preferably a woman. If you're a man and you're listening, I know there's some women listening to the show. Mostly it's men listening to the show. Find that woman that you're not being honest with and just take some of the examples that we talked about in this interview about how to bring more of yourself out there. Where are you holding back? Playing small, trying to get people to like you by not revealing your real self. And when you find that spot, take a risk, step into it and be more of yourself. Be more expressive and just see what happens. Take it as an experiment. Don't take it all about you. It's just the world giving you information for you to grow with and evolve with and keep moving towards who it is that you want to be in dating and relationships with women. With your work, anywhere, take that risk and do it today. If you're listening to the show at night, then do it tomorrow. The more you do this stuff, the more action you can take, the more you're going to transform your entire life. And thanks so much for joining me today. I'm excited to speak with you next week and in the weeks to come. And until we do speak again, may you have the courage to be who you are and to know that you're awesome.

Thanks for listening to Shrink for the shy guy with Dr. Azeez. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to socialconfidencecenter.com. Sa.