Upgrade Your Identity And Set Yourself Free with Dmitry Vulfovich

Welcome to Shrink for the Shy Guy. This is the show for you. If you are sick and tired of being held back by fear, self doubt, social anxiety, shyness, anything that's stopping you from you being you. I'm going to share the most powerful tools and resources that I've been discovering over the last 15 years on my journey to eradicate social anxiety and instill confidence, first in myself and then in every single person that I meet on my journey. You're going to learn these tools and how to apply them in your life now so that you can become the most free, powerful, bold, authentic version of you. Hey, welcome. Today's episode of the show. Today we're going to be looking at how we see ourselves. And the way that we see ourselves can be either very expansive and liberating or very confining. And there's so many ways that our identity shows up in our lives and it determines whether we think we can do something or think that we can't, whether we approach someone or don't. Even the level of worthiness we feel can be related to our identity. And this is something that it's a fantastic conversation that I go deep into with a licensed psychotherapist and a dear friend of mine, someone that I spent many years with when I was younger and we recently reconnected and I wanted to introduce you to him and just get a window. Him and I would have these long, extended conversations throughout the night. This one is relatively tame because our conversations would start with psychology and identity and who are we really and how do we grow. And then they venture into the more strange realms of psychedelics and metaphysical and even aliens and all that kind of stuff. So we didn't get into the crazy stuff in this episode. But I want to have him back on and him and I will go full on alien with you. But for now, let me bring in my guest. His name is Dmitri Vulfovic. He's a licensed psychotherapist in San Jose, California. And his specialty is in treating trauma and other mental health issues using a holistic, body oriented approach, which we'll hear more about. It's pretty fascinating. He also specializes in mindfulness and transpersonal psychology, which involves shamanic and Eastern practices that lead to health and well being. He's also a clinical supervisor and a master teacher trainer at the Process Therapy Institute, which helps people learn gestalt and somatic approaches to therapy using a one way mirror. So he helps train and teach other facilitators. So a wealth of experience working with clients directly, training other People and just a ton of his own personal growth work and research. Thank you so much for joining us today for the show, Dimitri.

Thank you so much for having me, Aziz. I'm really excited to be here.

Yeah, there's so much that we can get into and all different directions we're going to head. So I will let it flow and we'll see what's going to be the takeaways. Because for anyone listening, as I was mentioning in the introduction, Dimitri and I have a long history in which we know each other in a past life. And I remember our conversations would go for hours and cover all kinds of things ranging from psychology and our own growth work to metaphysics and spirituality, to anything and everything between. So I'm sure we'll go on a little bit of a ride here, but let's start with some more grounded, basic stuff which is, you know, you're in there working with clients regularly and helping them with trauma, anxiety, all different things that arise. And you use a body oriented approach. So maybe just give us a sense of what are you helping people with and what are some of the basic ways that you're approaching that and helping them.

Yeah, so my primary sort of catch all phrases I practice holistically. But you know, something that I kind of like to remind people because, you know, when I do workshops and presentations, I think sometimes the term holistic, even that has become sort of a cliche because people like, you know, they'll think holistic and they'll think like Instagram and they'll think like a crystal and like a singing bowl or some like, you know, incense or something. But the real, the term holistic comes from like sort of from the word whole. And it's, I think from what I understand it, Fritz Perls is the one that came up with it. And it's this idea that there's a whole of all the parts. And so there's within each of us there's sort of a community of aspects. And it's sort of like the gut, it's almost like a biome, but it's with the psyche. And so within each of us there's a community of parts. And you know, on a good day, we mobilize our parts and we focus our attention and we act in a way that is whole and kind of integrated. And on a bad day or on a bad life, sometimes we become at odds with ourselves and we feel disintegrated and against ourselves. And so that's kind of the basic premise of the holistic model and the Holistic model goes kind of in more depth with somatic psychology where not only is you have the psyche, you know, the different, the inner child, the wounded part, the happy part, sad part, but there's also, from the somatic perspective, there's also, you know, the body that comes into it. And so the body is from a holistic perspective, really kind of like a guidance system. That's how I see it, is like basically like if you, if you, if you stub your toe, like if you're walking and you hit your toe against the bed or something like that, like you're gonna have pain there and that pain is inviting you to pay attention to your toe and maybe, you know, put ice on it or whatever or put a band aid on it. And so if you didn't have those, those nerves in your foot, you would just be like a dead weight body that never knew what it was hurting. And we know that that's a pretty obvious thing obviously. But that also extends to emotional pain too, and difficulty feeling, sadness, grief, heaviness, all these things, anxiety. But that same principle applies so that if the idea is that when there is a symptom like you're feeling lack of confidence or feeling anxious or heavy, those are also just the way in which your body is communicating to you and letting you know that there's something to listen to, that there's something that is hurting. And so that if you hold it and attend to it, it may give you some information that would be useful. And so it's sometimes at odds with the medical model because the medical model tries to reduce symptoms and says, go to war and fight this cold, and fight cancer and fight this and get rid of things. The holistic model says these are actually ways in which the body is communicating. And if you listen and if you allow it, it can give you more of a guidance system in a way you can get, find more ease and well being.

I love this. And as in if we really tune into say a sensation of heaviness or sadness or fear in our bodies and become very present with that, then we'll get more information about the parts that are communicating or active within us.

Right, right, right. And so that. Exactly. So like you, so that you can start to relate to that part of you. So if there's a sad part going back to the whole community within you. So like if there's a sad part and then you, you know, immediately you feel sad and all of a sudden you say, oh, I hate that sad part. And so then all of a sudden you have discord. So, you know, now you're lamenting a certain part of yourself, but in this holistic way you're saying, oh, wow, there's a sad part. Let me like, let me attend to it, let me have compassion for it. And then inadvertently you're having compassion for it yourself and learning to have more peace within yourself.

Yeah, so that's a great kind of next thing to explore is so if we're becoming more aware of these parts and let's say we tune in and we find, okay, there's part of me is sad about this. And as you said, there can be the sense of, well, it's really bad, there's a disintegration, but maybe before then there's at the very least conflicting desires or opinions from these parts. And so one part's like, I want to stay in and be cozy and safe. And another part's like, I get bored and I want to quest out there in the world and see what's going to happen. And so there we are tuning in and we feel these different parts in conflict. What ways do you help people get to more resolution or peace? Is it just hearing them, hearing them out, or do we need to act on the different parts?

Yeah, that's a great question. So for this, I really am a strong proponent of sort of the Eastern traditions of mindfulness. I think that the whole idea with mindfulness is that we start to understand that there is a lot more accuracy with sensation than, than there is with the intellectual faculties because the intellect and our thinking is very useful, but it also is very often subject to bias and inferences from family of origins issues, or not issues, but just family of origins, like things that you've picked up on. And so we kind of. Our thinking mind is very, very kind of inundated with a lot of historical programming. And so oftentimes that is not enough to rely on. And so in a lot of ways, the mindfulness, sort of like the vipassana, like this body scanning approach, is if you sit with a feeling without jumping to a conclusion and trying to intellectually understand it so quickly. Oftentimes when you sit with like for instance, okay, just the example that you brought up, let's say there's a part of you that wants to, maybe there's a need to feel for safety and there's a need for. To stay in and feel cozy. And then there's another part that's sort of like, you know, challenging and wants to say, I want some excitement, I want some social interaction. And last time I did this, I felt bored. So there's a certain two types of kind of like directions. Well, in this case I would suggest taking a moment to sit with each of them, but not intellectualize them. Like consider sometimes within therapy I give people like an object. Like I'll give them like one, one rock or crystal and then I'll have them hold that and really like try. It's like almost trying on a hat and just seeing how it feels like, oh, how is this? But not intellectually, like seeing how it feels in the body. And you have to take your time because you need to like let the mud settle a bit. It's like shaking a bottle of muddy water and just putting it down and just giving it time to, for it to settle. And then it becomes half, you know, then the mud goes on the bottom and the water becomes more clear. And sometimes when we sit with things non intellectually, but more of a visceral examine ourselves experientially, like when we just, just feel it, there will be kind of nuanced sensations that will become like guiding principles. They'll be like, oh yeah. And it will be very moment to moment because I think if you sit with one thing one day it may give you different outcome than sitting with another day. But on a given day you may feel like you resonate in your body more with maybe staying in and you have this certain sense like, yeah, this feels right. And that rightness or that feeling of, I don't know, wisdom can only come from I would say like a gut feeling or as an intuitive sense. Otherwise you're just kind of logically intellectualizing it.

Yeah, I love that. And I think what's standing out to me, what you're saying here is that there is a need to not only not intellectualize and jump to conclusion, but even to maybe put that aside, to really tune in. And I know for me, having spent so many years just very head based, that oftentimes when I slow down and tune in, I will hear, I'll get valuable information and get signals and then my mind will come back in and want to judge those and challenge them. Because often that what emerges moment to moment is much more in the flow of life and much more vulnerable, engaged, risk taking, alive. And I think for me, a lot of my head activity is all about minimizing that stuff, minimizing the risk, minimizing the connection, and keeping everything controlled and contained. So I think there's two things I'm hearing there. One is to really create the space and then maybe also Another thing is to really listen to that information that's coming to you because it's really valuable.

Yeah, absolutely. And another thing that's helpful is when I tell my clients is that when they say, when they give you something like, oh, I feel anxious about going out, or I feel like this, or I feel that, I always. I ask them, I say, well, where do you feel that in your body? Because, like, there's the. There's the thought, but then there's the physiological component of that thought. And so it's always good to reference, like, okay, like, I feel nervous. Well, where do you feel that nervousness in your body? In my chest. So if you can learn to actually find where that, like, somatic translation of, like, that thought or that. That emotion, and you can anchor into it. And so, like, if you're feeling uninspired or. Or nervous or whatever it is, that that's. That's making you feel kind of uneasy or confused. I invite people to locate where that is sits in the body, because it always does. Like people say, like, when somebody comes in and they say, oh, I feel anxious. And I'm like, well, how do you know you're anxious? They're like, I don't know. But if I say, well, let's find out. It's usually somewhere. So if you. And a good way to do that is to anchor into where that sits in the body, and then that. That gives you a place to actually track. Because otherwise you're just like, mindfully sitting and you don't know. You're just kind of like, you know, trying to be mindful, but really you're having all these thoughts coming up. But it's good to anchor into where that sits in the body. And sometimes it's in the gut, sometimes it's like a tension in the neck. But it's good to figure out where that is manifesting.

And why is that? What does that help us do? So someone's listening is like, okay, I identify that the tension or the anxiety is in my chest, for example, then. Then what. What does that help them do or provide them with?

It allows for an anchor to do that which you can sit with. Because if you. Because you know, to. Just to tell somebody, oh, yeah, just sit with it, you know, like, it doesn't. It provides a source that. From that which you can sit and attend to. Otherwise you don't have sort of a resting place.

Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise it's just resting in the thoughts which are all over the place. Yeah. And often.

Go ahead.

I was gonna say the thoughts are often like, not only not in a resting place, but they're usually just like a lot of commentary on the feeling and, well, maybe the situation, but then also just the feeling itself. And I don't like this. How long is this gonna last?

I.

If only I'd done this or that, I wouldn't be feeling this. And there's nothing to rest in there. Just a whole lot of noise.

Exactly. It's like a re. Rendering. And the other thing that I teach with this stuff is that there's like. There's like a looping cycle and between the thoughts and the sensations. And you can think about it this way. It's like the thoughts are the. No, sorry. The thoughts are the logs and the sensation is the fire. And so the sensations only persist when you throw in the thoughts. So like for instance, like for instance, sadness, you really can't stay sad for very long unless you have a reinforcing thought to back that up. Like, oh, I, you know, I'm lonely and sad because my girlfriend left me. Like, you have that thought and then it comes with a feeling of sadness, and then you feel that sadness. Most people feel that sadness just for a very short split second or a couple seconds, and then they go back and they re render a different thought or a similar thought that reinforces it. And that's why people, when I ask, when I say, you know, allowance of your feelings is really important. And they say, well, last time I felt my sadness, I was up all night crying. But really they weren't really feeling their sadness. They were like creating a story, feeling their sadness for a split second and creating another story and then going back over and over like that again. So the idea is that if you actually feel your sadness stripped down of any story, it doesn't really even persist for very. It can't. The fire goes out because there's no more fogs. So that's what the anchoring helps with, is that when you can find where the sadness is or where. Where the confusion is or where the grief is or whatever it is that you're feeling, once you can locate where that feels like in your body, that anchor point helps. Like you said, like the resting point. It helps you connect to it so that you're not split with rerendering of the thought.

Yeah, I love that. And so as you're describing, I'm just doing it right now and I noticed that the tension inside I can feel is related. So there's. This is something I've been exploring for just the last Maybe couple weeks. I made a decision this year to travel more than I have. I've been pretty limited in where I would go for maybe the last. I'd say four. I mean, since our kids were born, so they're four and six now. I traveled some the first year of my son's life, but really I've been minimizing it. And maybe the last three years or so have done. Said no to most things and not sought out opportunities to travel for work. And I made a decision with my wife, Candice, like, okay, this year I'm going to experiment with that more and go for it. And I noticed that in a couple of months I have. Or no, no, over the next month or so, I'm traveling a lot more than I have. And I'm amazed at all the different feelings that kicks up, all the different parts that arise and how oftentimes the tension I'm feeling is not necessarily that those parts are in conflict. It's this not wanting to hear all the different parts. It's kind of like they're clamoring for attention. It's like, yeah, I don't have time for that. Just go be in the room together. I'll get to you guys later. And then there's like this pressure that builds up. And then when I just sit down and I do it, I love doing what you're describing. And I'll often integrate some journaling in. So I'll talk a little bit to a part and then I'll just close my eyes and really feel. And when I do that, I can hear. There's these different parts. And what I found, though, is that sometimes the parts seem irreconcilable, like they want two different things. And then the best thing that I can do is just hear each one and be curious about it and empathize with it. And some things I wonder when I'm doing this, like, well, the part that's doing that, what is that? And I know in IFS and internal family systems therapy, they could. They call that your center. And I'm just curious about your thoughts. Well, about anything I'm saying, but also about that, like, what's the part that's observing and interacting with these parts?

Yeah, that's a really excellent and beautiful question and topic. I think they call it different things in different traditions and stuff. I know Ram Dass calls it the loving awareness, but yeah, I mean, it's. I like Mooji. He talks about. He says that. He says that I, you know, I In quotes. I is Synonymous with consciousness. And he says I is the godly principle. So it is some kind of. Yes, I identified aperture of perception. And I don't think. I think it's kind of more of a mystical and philosophical thing about what it is. But it's either God or your awareness. But I think that consciousness itself is a natural curative. I think just this sort of fascinated, unconditional positive regard, positive fascination. At Process Therapy Institute, we have this acronym called HUFF H U F F. And it stands for hold unconditional fascination forever. And it's really this. It's like a state of being where you're holding unconditional fascination forever towards all your parts, no matter what. And, and I think that that, that, that fascination and that unconditional positive regard is a curative even to the confused voices that are not getting along. It just, it's. It just makes it them that much more. It dismantles them. Because you're like, hey, I hear you. I'm here. Like, I'm not running away. I'm not shutting you down. And maybe you're right. I think sometimes some voices are not reconcilable. But. But I think that your relationship to them, you have that responsibility to be loving and to not run away. Because I think that when you. When we kind of resist those negative thoughts or feelings that come, what we do is, I think we create a backlash. Because I think that's why people have nightmares and stuff. You know, they say that, like, if you don't listen to your soul's whisper, be prepared to hear it scream. Like this idea that if you don't listen and just attend to all this sort of uncomfortable, dark stuff, then it's just going to erupt and it's going to be like a different symptom that's going to erupt and it's going to make. It's almost like your psyche is going to make sure you get the message just in a much more harsh way. So, yeah, I think it is just about turning towards it and attending to it and loving it.

And I know this is something that it sounds like you are guiding clients through. And I know you've done more work with groups as well, groups of men and maybe other groups too. And in that space, are you doing this kind of thing with them in the group or is it more one on one that you're doing, helping people with this?

Yeah, I. I have come up with various creative enactments and sort of activities with groups. One of the ways that I've been able to do this is to do in partners. When I've had a group, like if I have a group together, if, if I split them up into partners and then they take turns being what. What we call professional. And basically the one partner is prompting the other partner to attend and allow whatever they're experiencing. And so they're prompting them to. They'll be saying, so one partner is telling the other person things like allow that to be there. Notice what it's like to feel that. Can you be with that for a moment? And very generic, but kind of allowing statements and sort of subtly body oriented kind of the prompts are like, okay, notice where that you feel that in your body. Allow that to be there. So slightly body oriented, but more or less just allowing statements. And the other person is just sitting there and just sharing what's happening as they kind of deepen and allow whatever. Usually like when you in a group, there's, you know, people come in for workshops, they're kind of ready to go, so they have stuff that they're dealing with. But when I've done that, it's amazing to watch because one of the person who's being the other partner who's being allowed, they're usually crying and going through like some kind of sadness or anxiety. And it's. So you could do this in partners, but it. Yeah, I don't know. It is definitely much more of a different thing when you have a whole group, when there's a sharing dynamic. It's a little bit different than in partners. Yeah.

That's awesome. I love hearing about how you're working with people and just the different approaches. And one thing I was curious about you said earlier when we were talking about what is that observing part. And you said that's into the realm of spiritual and philosophical. And I know that's something that you have just done a lot of. And even when someone does a lot of meditation, it kind of tends to steer people towards that. And I know from our conversations long ago that was something that you've studied a lot and been really fascinated in is spirituality and metaphysics and even transpersonal psychology is really looking at above the individual. And I'm just curious, how does that integrate into your work with people? How you see holistic therapy or just how we can be our more just most healthy, free, alive selves?

Yeah, that's a great question. I am indeed very fascinated with this stuff.

Yeah.

You know, I think that the primary thing that I've been really interested in recently is really inviting people to own their own Divinity. I think that fundamentally, each one of us is their own, you know, master and guru. I think, quoting again, Ram Dass, one of my favorite quotes of his is he says that everything is a guru if you know how to listen. And he said, not everyone, but everything is a guru if you know how to listen. So for me, it's like this sort of this way of looking at life that you are your own source. And of course, other teachers and people can come along and kind of give you little tips and things along the way and different wisdoms and things like that. But I've been really. I've been very interested in, you know, shamanism and all these things, spirituality and Buddhism for many years now. And for me, I've come to that conclusion that basically, like, any concept or idea is always going to be limiting because concepts by default are boxes. So, like, if you believe in a certain person, a certain idea, like Jesus Christ or the Buddha, or even a word like unity is still just a very colloquial or, you know, sociological term that we identify with. And I think the true mysticism is really renouncing or letting go of concept. And because it's. When you. Once you label something, it becomes, like, defined by that and it becomes nothing else. So if you say, okay, like, that's. That's a box, then it's not, you know, anything else but a box. And so what I try to do with people is I don't try to give them, you know, a specific prescription of how to practice spirituality, but what I try to do is I try to open up the potential for them to connect with their own true self and whatever infinite dimensions that they experience within themselves. I practice. I'm not certified in Hakomi, but I've taken a lot of courses in Hakomi. And I like that. The term Hakomi, it's actually. It's a Hopi word. Hopi people, the Native Americans. It actually means hakomi, means who are you in these many realms? And then that's kind of like where I stand with spirituality. It's like, we're also, like, so multidimensional. And so what I try to do is I just invite people to connect with all the. All the different dimensions that are within them. And, you know, it's interesting. Of course, I'm a strong believer in psychedelics and, you know, the whole kind of movement towards incorporating the shamanic medicines. And you know what's interesting? I recently posted on Facebook, it was a great hoot, but I was listening to Terence McKenna and he was saying that the first drug bust that was recorded in history was with Adam and Eve. And that when Adam and Eve wanted to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. And so that was the first, first time that some authority figure came and said that you're not, you can't eat this plant. This particular plant you can't eat. And it happened to be called the Tree of Knowledge. And it's almost like some authority was saying, well, you're not privy to this knowledge. So he must have thought that they ate, that if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they would become gods like him. So. And I feel like that's, it's a funky metaphor, but I think that's really where what I believe in is that we're all like gods, not superior to any, to each other, but we all have the potential for this cosmic experience.

Mm, I love that. You know, and yeah, and I feel like there's. And people have different words for it sometimes, you know, God or sometimes people call it higher self because maybe that has. There can be not necessarily the same connotation as with God, but I feel like I'll get glimpses of that sometimes. And you mentioned dreams earlier and sometimes I'll have this awareness that I guess is mine, but it kind of sees me like doing my day to day drama, you know, like, is that going to go the way I want? Oh, I'm mad at this person now. And just. It's almost like a character in a movie. And then from this vantage point, just like that part is just kind of like it's all good, I guess. Just like if you're watching a movie in the theater and you are getting really invested in the characters on the screen and then at some point you're like, oh, this is a movie. Okay, we can take this all in. We can enjoy this experience. We can have this. And I do. I feel like there's something similar happening with our lives here where there's this drama of it and you know, and some of the most intense highs and lows in pain. And yet there's this global awareness experience of it being this, this cosmic game or journey or some whatever word you want to use. And I feel like tapping into that. You know, sometimes that can seem so esoteric or kind of. What does that have to do with anything? I got bills to pay, you know, my wife's mad at me. But I feel like that tapping into that perspective can be extremely useful with the bills or with your spouse because it can get us into a different physiological state. A different, grounded place where we're not as terrified or reactive. And I think one thing that's so interesting about this is people, when they are approaching their end of life, you know, one common lament or insight they have is, wow, I didn't need to be so scared by it all. I needed to stress so much. And I feel like there's a way to tap into that now that we can use to face whatever challenges we're going through.

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. And I think it also has to do with our clinging for an identity, like. And it does have very practical applications, as you're saying, to paying the bills and things like that. If you're, like I was saying earlier, the whole box thing, if you're so hung up on concept and identity and seeing yourself as, oh, I came, I went to school here, and I did this, and I had this job and I have this set of knowledge. And you see yourself from this historicity. Like, you chain yourself to certain hat and you kind of, like, are very stoic and like, this is me. And so. And that can actually hold you back because it's like a preoccupation, and it's almost like you're holding tight to, like, maintain that, but you really don't need to. And the idea is that you can actually allow more of a spontaneous existence, that there's more to you, and it keeps coming too. Like, every moment you're kind of like bursting with new spontaneous creativity and energy. And so that sort of allowance of your own, of your own more novel experience to come forth, it can have an effect on your creativity in your workplace. You can make more money because you'll be having better ideas. And you can maybe do things that you never thought you would because you're not tied up on thinking that the only thing that you could be as an architect, or maybe you want to be a painter, and so you become more happier when you can let go of your identity, of who you think you are.

I love that. I love that. And it's something that I see a lot where the identity that we think we are is not.

It's.

I mean, sometimes someone's going around saying identity statements in their head, like, this is who I am. This is what I do. But it's much more of, like, a felt experience of restriction. It's like there's these invisible force field walls that we just kind of gently bump up against and turn without even knowing that we hit a wall. And that's outside of the bounds of who I think I am unconsciously. And then there's something really interesting too. I work a lot with people on confidence, but one of the key aspects of it is what I call omos, or on my own side. How do we really get on our own sides? And sometimes people think that means saying, I love myself and I'm okay, I'm a. And there is an element of self acceptance and self love there, but what's really underneath that is discovery of this unfolding of you. And sometimes we can say, I love you, but you gotta be this way and not this other way. Yeah, I love you as the architect, but don't even think about being a painter. But I love you. And now that's not real love. That's not really being on our own side, because what if that energy to paint is coming through or whatever that thing is in our lives, the next thing? And so I feel like one of the deepest acts of love we can have for ourselves is to be that. I love that huff, you know, that fascination forever with who am I now? What's next? And it gets really interesting when we let go of all concepts, even concepts that I think can be helpful. And I'm curious about your thoughts on this. Things like, and this one comes up a lot in my work with people is this idea of introversion and extroversion. And people identify, you know, well, I'm an introvert, so this is what I'm going to like. I'm not going to like going out and meeting a lot of people and having a lot of interactions because I'm introverted. And, you know, it's interesting, there was a phase in my life where I didn't really buy into that very much. And then there was a later phase in my life more recently where I did. It's like, well, you know, if you're an introvert, you might need A, B and C. And then just recently, most recently, I was looking at it, I was like, you know, I think I'm using that introversion as a cover to avoid certain levels of network building and relationship building that are at the next stage of me at this, you know, to have the influence that I want to have and make the impact I want to have in the world. I need to develop my network even more. And I've been avoiding that by saying, oh, that's too many people to manage. And my connections, I'm an introvert. And I just like, shook my head in fascination. I was like, man, that identity thing can seem so real. And people listening might even be fighting me on this, like no, no, you're saying introversion, extroversion aren't real. I'm like, well, I don't know. I just know that if, how much infinite potential and how many different ways can we go? And I'm curious your thoughts on that.

I totally agree. I've been thinking about too recently. My wife loves to do all sorts of like Myers Briggs and all these things. And first of all, I think if it is real, it's much more layered and textured and spectrum oriented. It's not extroverted or introverted. Extroverted. It can't be. That's just too black and white. I think that there's, first of all there's a spectrum meaning that there could be like shades of introversion. That's the first thing. And the second thing is that it's also context based, contextual. So meaning in which relationship. You know, it's kind of like when you're, you know, you're going to act differently when you have a baby in your hand versus when you're hanging, having a beer with your friend. Like you're going to be different, you know, your introversion towards the baby is going to be different from your introversion towards your friend. So like, I think it's much more complex than just having two terms that define people. I mean that's obvious. And I think the other thing is it all goes back to that mindfulness, mindful curiosity and fascination of like, well, how do I feel right now without my re rendered intellectual story? And how can I connect to it and notice what it is that I feel right now? Maybe in one moment I'm feeling introverted and maybe the next moment I won't. So I think it's more like, yeah, trusting that, you know, my experience should guide, not my, my identity. And I think that does hold people back. I think it's, I don't know, I think it's just for some reason it's, it's safe for people to buckle down and, and have something to believe in. And I understand that and, and that that goes back to religion and organized identity and those things. But I think it can turn into like you said, a form of laziness because you kind of hide behind that and you not willing to really discover and go deeper into what you really are.

Yeah. And what unlocks this or reveals this to me, and I see this with clients too, is I'm in that old identity until I discover there's something that I want in life or that I'm called to have or do or create or contribute. And then I have to grow to be able to do that. And then as I'm growing, I'm like, oh, I guess I'm not that old identity at all. You know, for example, to bring it back to networking and the connection, relationship building. It's like, I know I noticed that back when. So I had a. I'm a. I'm an introvert, I don't really like people story. And then I realized this is when I was much younger. I was like, oh, I don't. I don't really date women. I don't really have any relationships because of that. And so I said, you know what? I want to change that. And so I started to actively practice socializing. And this is one of the original sources of my fascination with confidence. And along the way, though, I realized, like, oh, I don't want to just be able to talk to one woman here and there. Like, I want to become a more social person. I want to talk to women, I want to talk to men. I want to talk to anyone and just be comfortable in my own skin. And before too long, I was able. I would be interacting. I'd be out somewhere and I would just go approach a group of people and start interacting with them, which in the past I would have perceived as very extroverted behavior. And so it's like, well, if I want the thing which is relationships with women or social connection, and now flash forward many years later, it's like, well, I want the thing. I want to be able to have a bigger impact in the world and reach more people with my work and feel like a sense of community and contribution in the world, well, then I'll reach out and connect to a bunch of people. And so all of a sudden, if you want it bad enough, your identity melts away. And I just think that's a fascinating thing to see. And it's like, oh, geez, well, where is my identity? Still seeming solid. But I haven't pushed the edge of it because there's nothing that I feel like I want on the other side of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, It's. Yeah, it's about kind of growing beyond your identity, growing bigger than. Than you are. And I think that's what the whole transpersonal thing is about. Moving. Moving beyond your. Your identity and yourself. And something that you also said that. I found it kind of fascinating. I resonated with, said something about there was this acronym they used. What was it? Ob. Something on your own side.

Almost on my own Side.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have something very similar and I got it from John o' Donoghue, who was like, he's a Celtic mystic. And I'm actually formulating this workshop around it. It's still in the working phase and I'm going to maybe do a couple's workshop, but it's centered around this idea of. He talks about. He says that being and longing, when you combine those two, you get belonging. And he says that the greatest belonging is self belonging. And I think it's such a really beautiful way of looking at it that, like that before you can belong to anybody else or anything else or any group or anything, you have to belong to yourself. And it's like a real deep sense of like being on your side, you know, that you. That you are the thing that which you can rely and rest on and belong to. You don't need to. There's no bracing, there's no like trying to hold anything up. It's like you already are there. And then once you can belong to yourself and have that sense of like belonging, then you can go and connect with other people. But sometimes people kind of get the wagon in front of the horse. They want to go and be, you know, social and extroverted and find belonging elsewhere, outside, but haven't really connected to really a sense of ground and stability within themselves.

Yeah, yeah. And really quite the opposite. I mean, I think for a lot of people there's a lot of self judgment and lack of self acceptance and repressing of different parts and you know, maybe a limited identity. And you combine all that and you get really being against ourselves. And then what's challenging, I think, when we're coming from that place is even if we do well, it's harder to muster the confidence and self esteem to go out there and connect with people and create healthy relationships. But even if we do, we can't really receive it. There's a lot of anxious attachment underneath there where it's like.

I don't know.

I don't know if I'm worthy of this. I don't know, what if they stop liking me? And so I think there's such a powerful source, continual source of relief and ease if we can really make belonging to ourselves. I love that language, by the way, belonging to ourselves of a high priority and really putting that first from which to create those relationships that we want.

Right, right. Yeah. And it really speaks to also worthiness too, like worthy of yourself. And John o' Donoghue also talks about, he calls, he says that Belonging is synonymous with a gracious receptivity. So it's like when you can graciously receive gifts and like when you meet somebody and you're like, oh, this is too good to be true. You know, like, I can't, this girl is too hot or she's too perf, she's too special or this friend or this, you know. So like now it's also something that I work with people a lot is sort of working through the resistance to your own receptivity, to your own worthiness and allowance that you somehow you've kind of told yourself subconsciously that like I can't, I don't deserve, I'm not worthy of happiness and good relationships. And obviously it's from family of origin stuff. But there is something about that sort of worthiness that has to come through.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that seems like the work especially I've seen as we. Well, I guess it can affect us at all levels, but that one doesn't seem to go away or get fixed by receiving a certain amount from what I've seen. In fact, I don't know if you're familiar with the Gay Hendricks book the Upper or the Big Leap, which is all about upper limit problems, but those can. That's that we don't feel worthy, we don't feel deserving. We feel like it's going to hurt someone or we're going to outshine people for whatever reason. We are uncomfortable going to that next level of abundance, love, creativity and enjoyment of life. And what I find fascinating about that is that can be affecting us from kind of the bottom of our potential, just getting from maybe feeling totally unworthy to having a few friends or someone that wants to be with us. And that can also affect us at the highest level of like we know we're, we're already have a family or relationships and career that's satisfying and you know, we have social connections and community leader and we're doing all these things. But there's another, you know, as you said, outgrowing or expanding beyond our identity. There's another level and feels like the upper limit stuff, right? The deserving stuff is there. Like, okay, I can receive this much good stuff, but what about even more? And I feel like that bumps up against the edge and I find that such a delightful way of looking at it too. This is something my wife and I have gotten really into in the last maybe month or two. We both, she read it for the first time and I reread that book the Big Leap and just being Curious again and again and again, like, okay, right now, what's happening? Is this discomfort? Is this anxiety? Is this guilt? Whatever's coming up, is this in some way trying to block or restrict the flow of how amazing life is? And just asking that question leads to fascinating answers. Because sometimes you're like, yeah, so what is amazing? What is coming through? And it's like, wow, everything is beautiful right now. And I'm trying to get some contraction around it to bring it back down to a level that's.

Yeah, yeah. And it makes me think like, that. That's a really interesting thing because it makes me think of like the holistic model and how that edge that you feel, the edge of discomfort is really just like your own self protective, like self preservation. There's a part of you that says, okay, let's just, you know, cool it down a bit. Let's stay with our homeostasis. So even that actually is still just like, not to be judged. You know, it is even that even that edge of growth is still probably an aspect of you that's just trying to like, keep you safe or something like that. So it is, it is, but it. Yeah, it's beautiful that, that. You know, I think one of my recent. I don't know where I picked this up. In my recent Instagram post, it was this quote. I might have been Carl Young or somebody, but it said, it goes, for every level there is another devil. Is that what you're saying? Like that?

Yeah.

Every time that you expand and you go beyond your edge, there's a certain sense of spaciousness. You feel expanded, you feel like, aha. But then after you kind of get to know that realm, then you start to go to the next level and there's always some level of discomfort that goes with it. And I think that is probably infinite process and that you kind of peel. And it goes back to the whole mystic Eastern thing about peeling the onion and really letting go of levels of deeper and deeper levels of resistance. And eventually I think that's what Buddhahood is, coming to a place where there is really no more resistance. And you are just pure allowance, pure joy, pure, pure, like, you know, worthiness of all that is. And you're just celebrating, you're celebrated and you're celebrating the universe. And that's where we want to go, but, you know, it's kind of a journey and none of us, you know, none of us have to get there, but we have lifetimes.

Yeah. And that's the. That's the North Star. That's the direction to keep. To keep coming back to. And I love it, man. I am reminded as we talk how much I love talking with you. And one of the reasons is that blend of so many different perspectives and as well as a high level of ability to articulate and eloquence. And thank you so much for sharing with me and with everyone listening today. So you are based in the Bay Area and I know we're gonna definitely have listeners that are there. And I'm curious if people wanted to find out more about you or even look into working with you or I know you leave ecstatic dance a couple times a month as well as workshops and other things. What would be a great place for people to visit to find out more about you and what you're up to?

Yeah. Great. And just want to say thank you for having me. I really do relish talking to you too because of a lot of resonance and mutual excitement. But as far as me. Yeah. So my main website is ww.spriral process.com. that's one word. Spiral process.com. that's my main website and it has all my contact information. I'm based in downtown San Jose. I have like a nice hostic kind of style office. We also have a movement studio and do like different movement and somatic workshops with clients and stuff like that and one on one. And then I also teach and supervise at the Process Therapy Institute which is also in Santa. And we do like a one way mirror. It's like a gestalt experiential kind of Hakomi style training program for psychotherapy interns. And now we're actually starting to opening it up for non licensure practitioners. So it could be somebody, anybody who's like maybe yoga instructors or people who are wanting to do life coaching. And so we're opening it up and it's a cool training and I'm one of the teachers and supervisors there. And that website is called similar to mine, but it's www.processes.org. that's plural. And that's where you can if you're looking to get training on this type of experiential healing modality.

I love it.

Yeah. And then the Aesthetic Dance, if you go on aestheticdance.org we're listed on there. San Jose, that's where we're at. Yeah. Great.

We didn't even get into that today or too much into psychedelics or aliens. But that might have to be another conversation where people want to hear us go really down the rabbit hole then I would love to have that Conversation as well, because I think that is highly useful and interesting and fascinating as well. So maybe we'll have another one where we go. We just go all out.

I am totally in. Let's do it.

Awesome. Thanks again, Demetri. Appreciate it.

Okay, Aziz. All right. Take care.

That brings us to the end of the interview, but not quite the end of the episode. Time for action. Action, action. We're going to keep your action step today, Broad. I love to do this with the interviews. I mean, there's so many ideas, so many insights. Maybe something I said, maybe something he said. Maybe something from our conversation that emerged where you're just like, ooh, I want to act on that, or, ooh, I want to apply that, or I have an idea. I have an insight or an action. So what did you hear? What's an insight or a takeaway from the interview? And then even more importantly, what are you going to do? What action are you going to take today based upon what you heard in this interview? Otherwise, it becomes intellectual entertainment. It becomes like the sophisticated person person's Netflix or something like that. And not to say we can't learn from certain shows on Netflix, but it just becomes entertainment. And let's turn this into not just more information that's intriguing or interesting, but actual transformation in our lives. So how are you going to upgrade your identity? What action are you going to take? What little small thing are you going to start to apply in your life? That's the question I have for you. I'll leave it up to you. Because you are the captain of your ship. You will decide. You will take the action until we speak again. We have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you're awesome. Thanks for listening to Shrink for the.

Shy guy with Dr. Aziz. If you know anyone who can benefit from what you've just heard, please let.

Them know and send them a link to shrinkforthshyguy.com for free blogs, ebooks and training training videos related to overcoming shyness and increasing confidence, go to social confidencecenter.com.