Don’t Define Your Relationship by Your Hardest Days

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Correct.

Because we have just gone through a major life transition. We have moved. And it's nice because we're— but we both haven't actually had a chance to sit in the space together. So it's a little bit echoey. I know it's going to probably show up on the recording, but we have our coffee. Lachlan's sitting on his bed. You think he's depressed from the move. I think he's just adjusting. I do.

Yeah. We're going to talk about transitions, and that includes your pets.

I think I asked people on Instagram if they had helped their pets transition through a move, and many people said to make sure you keep their— like, don't wash their blankets, keep their bed blankets, all that the same. We have. I mean, look at him, he is sleeping soundly. He's in his golden years. The window just looks different.

Yeah.

So you and I have gone through something pretty huge, and I, I think it didn't hit me how big this life transition is until we were sitting in front of the lawyer and the lawyer said, you're in one of the top 3 life stressors. And we had asked her what they were.

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't quite buy that, but I think I do now.

We were in the messy middle and you didn't buy it? Yeah, I believe it.

So we've moved, but people move all the time. Like, I don't want to— I think I don't want to like overdimension what it is, but I think it does— it is a bigger transition than I'm probably willing to admit. Like, in my brain, I was like, it's fine. It's like, you moved. Like, we didn't even move far. People make big-ass moves.

So my face is shocked. I'm sorry, we packed up a house that we had lived in for 13 years, our first house together, correct? This was the first time, like, selling a home.

Yep.

Staging, all of that.

A lot of work.

That was so much work. And you're like, nah, this isn't a big one. So I agree that both end— yes, people do this all the time, And it's stressful.

It was.

Yeah.

And when I thought about what do we want to talk about here in the podcast, I really appreciate how we bring in our own experiences because they are the experiences that every couple have. Also just this sense of, well, what was it like for us? And what, you know, what does me from a human perspective, but also my psychology couples therapist perspective and you as my regular guy husband. Like, what did we come out of this huge thing? So I wanted, in some ways we're gonna talk about what the move was for us, but I think this applies to many life transitions.

Yeah. I, I, I, I think that's important. It's, we're using the move as an example.

It's our example, our experience.

Right. But I think you can overlay that on, yeah, different things.

So when you're going through a life transition, and for those wondering, cuz I had people ask me, what were they? This is what the lawyer had said. The lawyer said the first one is a family member dies. That's a big stressor. Second one is divorce. Huge. Third one is move, selling, buying and selling a home, moving. But I think what really happens for people is that you enter into this huge stressful period and it's so easy for it to then change who your partner appears to be.

Quickly.

Very quickly. But I think it's important to remember that it's not necessarily, it's not them actually changing. It's the stress of it. So in the midst of this, I can remember having those thoughts of, you're not prioritizing this, you are not moving fast enough. Like, I remember having some of those really tricky thoughts. And, and the thing that we know is that when you are in high emotion, the stories amplify, right? And the more stories you have, it's this loop, the more emotion, like, the greater the emotion is. So high stress means those stories are going to feel so real and you're just gonna loop in that.

So it amplifies them 100%.

And then also too, if you think about stress— and I, I love just this piece— your nervous system cannot tell the difference between moving or being chased by a bear. Stress is just stress. No, no, the front of your brain differentiates that, right? Okay, right. So from a biological level, I don't know, I'm like You're telling me. But from a biological level, the back of your brain just senses stress and that's a threat. It doesn't know what it is. Doesn't know whether you're going through a chronic health condition. It doesn't know if you're moving, if your baby's up every single night.

Okay.

It just knows that this is a stressful period. And that is going to then, because you're in this stress state, it's going to lead you into what you do to protect yourself, the protective patterns. And for me, I think something that I slip into is easily control. Thought you would appreciate that.

Tell me more.

I want to micromanage. I want to double-check things. I want to have my hands in everything. I want to make sure I've planned it all out. Like, if I can control, I feel a sense of calm. It's not real calm. It's the false sense of safety.

The double-checking. I don't really feel the control, like the dictation or the micromanaging. It was more of the double checking.

From me?

Yeah. Did you do this? Did you do that? Yes. Yes. I mean, in fairness, I do often kind of move quicker and don't slow down, so it's possible there's a reason for it.

One of my, absolutely one of my beliefs is like the, one of the stories is you aren't double checking.

So that's heightened then during this period of stress.

What did you look like under pressure? If you think about this transition.

What do you mean? What did I look like?

Like, what did you resort into?

Um, I, I think trying to do too much at once. I do like to move quick and don't laugh, but like I would maybe have too many things on the go simultaneously, so I'd fail to complete a task. I'm holding my ears back. Your eyes are bugging outta your head.

The number of times.

Yeah.

The one time I left the door open. And I had said to you, I'm like, hey love, slow down.

Yeah.

I see you doing a thousand things.

Just slow down. So in a transition like this where there's quite literally endless number of physical tasks to do that require moving things, packing, right? They all kind of have their own beginning, middle, and end. You kind of have to do a bunch of stuff simultaneously, which then requires you to be super organized, which, you know, let's be honest, isn't necessarily my strong suit. So. I kind of found myself like a bit all over the map.

Something I really had to tap into. So we know that couples easily slip into the negative bias and we only see the negatives or the negative sentiment override is how Gottmans talk about it. And it's, it's, it's easy. It's human nature because when you're stressed, you're going to find the things that feel threatening and then you're going to live through those. And I think something I really had to tap into within myself during this transition was to assume positive intent, like just to really see you, that you want the same outcome as me.

For sure.

You are not trying to stall us.

I wasn't slow rolling you. No, no, we shouldn't sell this house and be on the hook for two houses. Like, no.

When I think about this, I think, you know, I also think about even the postpartum transition when you're transitioning to one or two kids, a new baby joins the family. Something that I really think about in this is for you to not define your relationship by who your partner is on the hardest days. And so when you've just had a baby, you're not at your best self. You're both sleep deprived. There's hormones, there's healing, there's adjusting to looking after someone who is completely dependent on you. And if we then start to say, who did I marry? Who is this person? Well, no, because you're, you're in a transition. And it was the same thing for us. I knew we were going to come back to a regulated state. I knew we weren't going to always be in this living where you like walk away and the door's left open or something. Right. And it's true.

Yeah.

So I think that's something really important that it's something I have to hold in mind too. This is a season. Yeah.

Well, it kind of goes back to the stories. If you're holding onto this story, your perception of them is going to be different than who they are. And because of the level of stress or level of change or transition, everything is elevated.

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Something else I was thinking about that really helped me through this transition is to not ask who's right, but instead what's best for us.

Yeah, that's important.

I think when we get stressed, those are the moments where our egos show up and really want us to like— it's like that righteous indignation. It's like, but I'm— it's my way, my way is the best way. And there were so many moments where I had to do this. It's not you against me. Yeah, it's we.

We're going shoulder to shoulder.

Yeah, 100%. And it's like the whole packing up, or who did you contact, or it's like every moment can become this opportunity of whether you're going to protect yourself or you choose your relationship. You know, here's the thing. We all thrive on our own. That's the autonomy within us.

That's the easy part.

That's the easy piece. And it's, it's the sense of, yes, you can do it better your way.

Yes, you're, you know, yeah, because it's your way. You're biased towards yourself.

100%. How easy is it to be in a moment and to pack up a room by yourself, not having to think of others, not having to think of your impact on someone else? Not having to talk to someone, you just write. It's just easier.

You just do.

But then to be able to say, well, actually, no, we're doing this together. It's really hard. It's really hard to have to slow down and to then think. And I, I use this in therapy a lot with couples, which is like, how do we rotate the room? What's the experience of this other person? And that is really a difference from how I prefer to do something to our outcome, like how we do this together. Was there something you had to let go during the move to like do the we?

Well, I think it's just like what we just spoke about is like you just have to accept that things will get done. It might not be the way that you would necessarily do it or that you had hoped to do it, but it will get done and we will get through this, whatever the transition will be. It's, it's giving up a little bit of control and trying to look at the bigger picture and maybe focus more on the outcome than kind of the process, which isn't necessarily the advice you might often get. Because I think in a lot of things, and maybe it's your work, it's sometimes better to focus on the process, which is a little bit smaller. But in a situation like this, it's not perfect. You're going to get there.

So we moved within our neighborhood, so the kids stay at the same school. And I remember at first, really resisting your idea of doing these like small frequent trips to the house. Right. And in my mind, I remember having these thoughts of, this is such a waste of time, or this isn't working for me. Or I think one night you packed up the car and the trailer and I was like, well, that's a waste of a trip.

I mean, it may have been less efficient than other trips.

Sure.

However, in a way this—

when you came back from that though, I did not rag on you about it. I think I had intentionally said, thanks for doing that. I see how much you're doing. Like, I was really intentional throughout the move to do that with you. I hope anyways.

Yeah. I mean, I think ironically a smaller move in the sense of distance in a way was— it was easier because it was close and we could do all these small trips, but it like— we didn't have to pack as thoughtfully. Like, yeah, you could— it could— you could throw shit in a box and like, yeah, so it Well, we literally, like, the kitchen, we dripped it over. Yeah.

And I took it from one cupboard and then immediately put it in another cupboard. So I know two of my other friends have done big moves. One's actually moved out of the city and into— it actually ends up being a different state. But then someone else moved across country and they would have had to do that big, like, pack up all the dishes at once.

Which I guess my point is, on some level, don't come at me, folks, might have been easier.

What, the packing all at once?

Yeah, because you're packing, you're staying in one box, moving it to the next box. We did these little like these milk runs over and over and again. But listen, that's such a fortunate problem to have. Of course.

Let's move on. Of course. And it was interesting too, because I kind of thought too, how do we show the kids how we do this?

So how do we do that? We involve them. They had to participate.

Yes, the number of boxes for their stuffies. They had to participate, but I was also really intentional because I think sometimes what we do is we vocalize our frustrations and our kids hear it.

Oh, do you see what your father did? That kind of shit.

And I don't want them to hear that. I don't want them— I— and I really do now that I see them. So our kids now are 9 and 11, and now that I see them as this versus when they were 2 and 4. Actually, I do remember when our son— I think he was around 4— and he had picked up on one of my criticisms of you and had said it out loud. And I was like, ooh, I don't like how that sounds. And I remember at that moment saying, I am going to work on this to not pass that on.

How's that going?

Hey, it's going pretty good. I give, I give so many out loud compliments when you're not around.

I know, I know. I was— ah, the reason I'm bringing up— you're shocked because Lachlan's shocked too, because recently I think our son said, Mom, watch your tone.

Oh yes.

Anyways, we digress.

What was that about? Mom, watch your tone.

It doesn't matter.

And you know what? I felt defensive when he said that.

I know you did.

And I just said thank you and bit the end of my tongue off because it's feedback and I want him to learn to give feedback.

Of course.

Anyways, so I intentionally had done a lot of vocalizing about Dad's doing so much, he's being really helpful. Oh, Daddy did it differently than I did, you know, and, and that's okay. So I was also really thinking about, and this is hard for me because I'm a control appreciator, I lean towards perfectionism, but I was thinking how different doesn't mean wrong. And, you know, like, I walked by some boxes you were packing Yeah, not how you'd do it. Not how I would do it.

Did it get done though? I think this is kind of the macro point.

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I really do think that one of the things that trips us up— so I'm taking this from watching couples for 20 years in my therapy room— we get tripped up. I don't want to say we waste time because there's a reason underneath why we do these things, But we really get tripped up on wanting the other person to do it our way.

I know. Why is that? Just ego? Just human nature?

There could be a few things.

Influence?

I think ego is one. This kind of like, I need to be right. And if that's you, I think there's a little bit of exploration in there. Like, what's that about? Did you ever feel like right in your family? Were you always blamed? Did no one ever take your perspective seriously? Like, that's one piece. There's also this sense of sameness. In a relationship. I've talked about sameness before, where if you do it my way, then I'm okay, then we're good. So it can come from a bit of more of an anxiety and anxious attachment.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, this is Kohut's self-psychology, talks about sameness, mirroring, twinship. And so if you and I are the same, then I'm good and lovable, we're okay. And children actually do that when they're younger, but they end up growing out of it. You like, you help them grow out of it.

So the anxious folks would lean that way. That's interesting.

Yeah. Not everybody, but some. So yeah, ego, anxiety, just that sense of righteousness, I think sometimes shows up for people, but it's like, I love the question of, is this where I want to put my energy right now? Is this really what matters? Like, you know, for most people, they're going to say, no, that's not. And then I think the question is, can we acknowledge that you can't hold everything? And you, before we started, what did you say about the podcast you're listening to? That we can't be good at everything.

Yeah, the analogy was, you know, in this case, 3 things. It was like work, family, and golf. You can't be good at all 3. I think the concept was around time and energy, but pick your, pick your few.

Totally. Something else I think you and I did really well that is a key thing for couples to do in any life transition is to stay— this is such a therapy word, so I want to like unhook from it— stay attuned to each other. But maybe a different way of saying it is to stay emotionally updated.

Say it again, keep going, plainer language for us in the back.

I think we do things like, how are you? Or how's the move going? Or right? How's work? It's very big. It's not inside stuff. Right. And so when we go through these transitions, I think sometimes what we tend to do, especially because we're in stress, we buckle down and we go inwards. But being able to do this as a couple— so I've already talked about how autonomy is really easy. You go into yourself, you do it how you want to. This is the interconnected piece. And it is actually really vulnerable to have to do this. For me to sit beside you and to say, Where are you today? How are you feeling? Like, what's, what's inside that's actually happening for you?

Like, how are you feeling about this move or this transition?

Yeah. And the job in that is if you say, I'm feeling anxious, to not then fix the feeling, but just to be a witness of it, right? And to go both ways though. I think that's really important. And I think not just our move, but I also think about people who are welcoming a new baby, how you feel. Gosh, I immediately go to our son's nursery, how I felt the first moment I got there, and then how I was a puddle like the next day. But being able to check in with each other every single day. Where are you today? What needs to be named? You might feel anxious. You might feel grief, stress, stress, excitement. You might feel lost. Yes. When I thought about this conversation with you, Greg, I was actually thinking about the walk we had as the kids were ending school. Do you remember I burst into tears? Of course I did. Me and my high sensitivity. And I had said, what makes me tear up again? I had said, I don't think we fully allow ourselves to go through transitions.

Because this was the last walk home?

That was part of it. But I think because we live in this society where we're just so fast. And we just want to like get to the next thing so we don't have to sit in any discomfort. And it's like, okay, end of school, check. Camp, check. Right? And then we just expect ourselves and our bodies to just move and keep moving and keep going. And it's like, well, when do we ever sit down and allow ourselves to just grieve or to have a moment of sadness? And then I remember, so I had said that to you on the kids' last day of school because it was our last walk doing it that way. And just for people listening, you know, when I think about people who, who struggle to feel emotions, what's just happened for me is I rode the wave. Like, I knew the wave came in a burst and then it rode through, and I'm okay. And like, I think it's such a beautiful thing to be able to do that. But I think we don't have really good rituals. Like, we've got, we've got a wedding ritual, we have a ritual when people die, when someone born, but we like miss rituals for some of these in-between things. And when I think about this kind of transition, like, it's, it's to be honored and to be paused.

And well, I actually think that's one thing we did well. I think we might talk about that, is, you know, we tend to get up quite early in the morning and have coffee and either read or check in. And I think we continued to do that during this time for the most part, and I think that was really key. The thing we did is we would take some of that time to kind of celebrate the small wins that we had. Like, wow, we're actually doing okay. Or maybe even the ritual was like, oh, it was a bit of a check-in to say we still need to do this, but it was also to like take a step back and go, oh, we're actually doing well here. Look at all that we've gotten done.

Wow. Yes, we still need to do X, Y, and Z, but So I'm thinking about partners who I work with who say, well, my husband doesn't want to sit with me and do that kind of thing. What would you say to men specifically who are like, I don't want to do that?

Yeah, but do you want any— do you want a different outcome? Like, are you willing to try it? Like, I hear you. I hear what you're saying. I kind of hold in mind some of those dudes I might know. And, you know, maybe they're a little bit more on the stubborn side. And that's— you're allowed to be, but particularly in a time of transition that's higher stress, if it's not working, if you try this, it's also like, it's just good for you individually too.

Yeah.

Right. To have this slow down and check in and, mm, you know, it's hard. It's the ego blocks that I think a lot.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I have empathy for those partners who say their husbands don't want to do it. I do wonder if how they've propositioned it to their partner though.

Yeah.

Like if maybe the language they're choosing to set this up is a little bit too wishy-washy or soft or too like—

What would you think they need to hear?

Those dudes?

Yeah.

I mean, I, you know, this is obviously huge generalities, but like I would maybe stress the like importance of it. And often those guys I think tend to react positively to logic. Like, hey, it's a good opportunity for us to just like have a plan or make sure we get the things done that you wanna get done. Like you could make it, you could make it a bit selfish for them. Like this will like help you versus like, I need this emotional time. Like I think those guys who are blocking that, like if that's your approach, even though it can be true, like truly two things, that might not be the best way to, to incorporate something like this.

I like the idea of making it like a work meeting.

Yeah.

Like this, we're, we're a team and every team meets.

Yeah. So this is something like, I wanna make sure you get What you need today to get those things done. Like you don't wanna, like, it's not like pandering to them, but it's just like being a bit strategic in how you set it up versus, yeah. You know, if you, you lean on emotions too much and your dude is not reacting to it well, that it doesn't mean they don't care about your emotions, but it might just, a different approach might be worth a try.

Uh, I've always loved the team meeting. Yeah. The, the work analogy is always really good. Yeah. I've always said that cuz they just, I mean, How do you want to run a successful team? Well, we need to meet, and the reason we meet is so that your voice is heard. Yeah, I love saying that to men. Yeah, I want your voice to be—

you're just, you're just appealing to more of their logic.

Yes, which I think, which kind of bypasses ego a little bit. Yes, I think people can get really stuck and lose what this is all about. Like, this is, this is about connection, this is about togetherness, this is not trying to change the other person. And so I think there's this like reframe in here that instead of you asking, how do we just get through this? How do we just white-knuckle through? I just gotta get to the finish line. But I think the question that's more important is, who do we want to be while we go through this?

I don't want to be an asshole going through it. Well, or how we want to be as a couple.

I'm joking, but, but, but I think it's true though, you know, in the sense of who do I want to be going through this? Do I want to be someone who is resentful and angry? No, because that costs me more energy. I want to be someone who is connected, who can feel the different emotions, who knows that you're there on the other side.

Yeah.

And, and the reality too, for men who are resistant to doing this, listen, you don't get to be married and then tell your partner that she doesn't get to have your attention. That's not a marriage. That's not a relationship.

Yeah, that's true. It's also a vicious cycle, right? You're already in a stress state or a stress transition. So if you're elevating that, you're just going to elevate the stress, and it's just like doom loop. Mhm.

I had one last thought about this transition piece, and this is the one that I often forget because, I mean, this was just a wild ride. We, we what? We bought, staged, sold, moved, closed in 7 weeks, maybe 8. Feels shorter, but yeah, I think it was 7 weeks. And if you saw me on move day I was energized. I was like, yep, doing this, doing that. We unpacked things. You know, I, you came down at one point, you're like, oh wow, you have that closet unpacked already. That's cool.

It's exciting.

It's exciting. Adrenaline keeps you going. Deadlines push you. And then I just feel the aftermath. And I think when it comes to these transitions, we forget to plan for the aftermath. This is the, you're climbing the hill, you reach the peak. For us, the peak is actual move day, settling in. And then you've got this incline down— decline, this decline, thank you— the decline down. It's the slope. And I think sometimes it's at that point where our bodies— and one of my friends had said this when they had gone through a move, they had said that she couldn't recognize it was a major life transition until after. Yeah, because you're just trying to get through it.

It's kind of like adult restraint collapse.

Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely.

Right, the kids after school, you know how they're assholes for the first 30 minutes after?

So we just got through everything, and I remember— so you weren't in the room. I remember we had movers move our big stuff for us, which was just incredible. I'm so grateful we had that. So thank you for you initiating that, because I initially was like, I can help you move this stuff. No. And then I remember looking around the house, there was like one or two things left, and I said out loud to myself— I started to tear up— and I was like, oh, I'm having feelings. Like, I had to say it out loud. But I think what happens for us though is your body is then like, oh, now we have space to have these feelings. Yeah. For myself, I've been battling a cough. Like, I can feel myself kind of trying to deal with a cold, feeling more tired. I'm not in my routine just yet.

Yeah, I have not slept well despite being tired. It's weird.

Yeah, but I think it's a reminder for people that your transition doesn't end when you reach the moment. The moment.

Yeah. I think what you're saying is maybe if you can, if you're anticipating a transition, is to plan for that a couple weeks after.

Yeah.

And what can you do?

Okay, and now I have to loop this to the postpartum period because, of course, I think what ends up happening for a lot of couples is baby arrives and then they forget this transition afterwards. They forget the— she needs to heal, they're adjusting as a couple, they're trying to find their rhythms because society just expects mom to bounce back. Everybody gets to visit and people just forget about mom who's just gone through this major life transition and the couple has too. So anyways, all that to say, I think I'm intentionally right now trying to be very compassionate to myself that, oh, we've just gone through this big life thing. Don't say yes to more. Let yourself sleep a bit more and, and just adjust. And again, I want us to be a team right now. So when I am feeling tired, is my mascara running down my face?

A little bit.

Cool. I'll fix that later. When I am feeling tired, I don't come at you. I remind myself, oh, we're in this transition together. Together. And sometimes too, not everything has to be said.

Mm. Tell me more.

I've just not had to say everything. And then I ride the wave of feelings inside of me. If I'm frustrated at something that you've done differently than me, I ride the wave.

That's probably good advice going back to the actual transition itself, isn't it? Yep, not everything needs to be said.

Nope.

Especially when ego shows up and things aren't being done how you might wish it to be.

Do you remember what our son came home when he was 8 years old, when he, he was like, oh, today we learned about THINK. Do you remember that?

I think so.

What it stands for. Is it thoughtful? Is it helpful?

Is it intelligent?

Intelligent. Is it nice? Is it needed? N stands for needed. And is it kind?

Yeah, something like that.

And I remember him telling us that. I thought, oh, that one's a good one. So I often ask myself Is this needed?

Is it kind? All right, good advice for adults too.

Here we are on the other end. We're on the decline of this transition.

We're in the post-transition collapse-ish. Yeah, not collapse, it's like, it's a lull.

It is a lull. I think it's a settling too. And because my nervous system likes to go, go, go, I like to live in that space. I have to really let myself just like sink into this cuz my thoughts have gone on a wild ride of what did we just do and oh my God. And oh, okay. No, this is, this is all transition.

Yeah.

I know.

I'd encourage people to plan for it. That's my takeaway from today's episode.

I love that. I don't think we've, we've ever really planned for those kinds of transitions before.

That's true.

Cool. Well, thanks for hanging out with me. Thanks for going through this life transition with me and our In our new office. The podcast studio is not fully set up yet, but we're here, we're recording. And I don't know, I feel like when you get through these transitions, they're not supposed to be easy, but it's a chance for you to come out stronger.

For sure.

And didn't I say to you recently, so we recently celebrated our 14th anniversary. Didn't I say to you recently how it was such a lesson to learn, like, I love you and I might not always like you.

Yeah, it's good advice.

Especially in big transitions.

Especially.

Yeah. All right, thanks for clicking play today. If anything resonated for you, I would be so grateful to hear from you. Send me a message over on Instagram or share this with someone you know who is going through a life transition, and I will see you next week. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode, this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. Understanding spiritual abuse and trauma is one thing. Knowing how to move forward is another. In The Shattered Soul, trauma therapist Colleen Ramser walks alongside survivors, offering guidance, practical tools, and hope for healing. Through both professional insight and her own story, she helps readers begin the journey of reconnecting to themselves, their faith, and their sense of peace. The Shattered Soul is now available wherever books are sold.

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