Raine Maida and Chantal Kreviazuk: The Marriage Behind the Music

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go-to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries, in-laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good. There are some conversations that stay with me long after we stop recording, and my conversation with Rayne Maida and Chantal Kravyazek was one of them. When we first sat down together, we talked about marriage in a way that felt incredibly real. We talked about the small hurts that end up building over time, or the way couples can miss each other every single day, and what it takes to keep coming back to the relationship, even when things feel hard. And of course, these are 2 people who have spent decades in the public eye building extraordinary careers in music, while also building a life and family together. What I have always appreciated about Rainn and Chantel is their willingness to be honest about their marriage. They don't show us some polished, perfect version of what long-term love looks like. They talk about the hard parts. They talk about the places they have struggled and the work they've each had to do individually and together. And now they have written a book called I'm Going to Break Your Heart. Oh friends, I teared up reading the prologue, and this is just something that you absolutely need to grab. You need to read this one. There's just There's something that stays with me when someone is honest about the real struggles we all have. And I deeply admire this couple for being willing to share openly about their relationship because I think we need more examples of what real marriage actually looks like. Marriage can hold this both and. There's so much love and it can also still be so hard. We can hurt the other person and still love them deeply. We can lose each other for a while and carry resentment and disappointment and old wounds and still come back to each other. in different ways, in ways where we didn't know this is where we would evolve to. And this is exactly why this book matters. So here I am sharing this conversation with you again, and I'm encouraging you to go and pick up I'm Going to Break Your Heart. It's an honest, vulnerable, and deeply human read. I just know you're gonna get so much out of it. So here I am, happy to share with you my conversation with Rainn and Chantel. Chantel and Rainn, thank you for inviting me here to your home and for sitting with me and having this conversation with me. Before we were starting, I was thinking about even talking about my own relationship in the media and opening up about that. So it's not something I do with my clients in therapy, but part of my journey in the last 6 years was to really start normalizing the story for people around relationships are hard and they take a lot of work. And even in the early days before I wrote my first book, I think Greg had even said like, do you want to share this stuff? Like, this is, you know, this is personal.

Personal.

But you guys do something that is just So aligned with what I want to be doing and helping people with, and that is talking about your marriage.

Yeah.

And the heart of it.

And the heart of it or the hearts of it?

Both. Both. But, but you guys did that even before the social media boom in 2020, right? You guys were doing it before then.

I feel like we helped usher it in. I swear to God. Because some of the things that I saw, I do.

Really? Humbly. You humbly say that?

I do. I do. Because I think that like Rainn and I tend to be more like artists. And I think that like, especially somebody who has written songs for global superstars and sees how all that works, I know this sounds crazy, but I actually have seen us say and do things and then them show up on a, like scaled out by somebody with a larger platform. And it actually has been the greatest compliment of my life. And the reason for that is because unlike the sort of the competitiveness that I have felt as a female in the music business, Something very, very different happens inside of me when I think of couples coupling, the science of coupling, and people working on their relationships. Because I really do believe at in my heart of hearts that peace begins at home, and I truly believe in opportunities to learn conflict peaceful conflict resolution. And so, you know, I have such a wish for the world in this like little altruist Chantal. You know that. We'll all get a little bit better at being together.

Can I— I think some context is important though. I think we kind of like stumbled into this in a way because we went to film a documentary. We were trying to make a record together because we played different charity events and we'd play each other's songs and then we're like, hey, we should write a song that just is ours instead of covering each other's at these events.

Do you think that was the beginning of it?

This is the very beginning. It's like inception point. And so we tried literally in the studio for years to do it, wrote one song. And then a friend of ours who's in the film business said, you know what, if you guys book a crew and flights and go somewhere else, it'll force you to actually do it. Because she saw us stumbling and just frustrated with not dogs and kids and tours. It was just impossible. So we went to this little island off the coast of Canada owned by France called Saint-Pierre, kind of embedded ourselves there for 2 and a half weeks. And it was really tough. It was January. We were— it's like 3 flights to get there. You know, the kids were young.

I had a pregnancy.

Okay.

That went bad.

Yes. Like, it was the perfect storm.

All the things.

So while we were trying to film this Doc about us being creative together and and writing this album, and then coming back here to record it. We captured on film a lot of, and I think you know songs aren't just born out of thin air. It's something you have an idea or angst. There's a conflict or angst or it's happy or whatever that is. That was all caught on film as well when we were editing it. It felt like you know what if we edit all that stuff out, there is no context to these songs. But when you put it in and you're watching it back, especially as a couple, you're like oh my. God, did I really say that? And it's— you're like a witness to your own crap. Yeah, like, you know, I mean, your own faults as, as a, as a couple one, but as just how you walk in a relationship and how you deal with conflict or other stuff. And so super heavy. But I think we made— if there's anything that was courageous, it was making the decision to keep it in.

I, I have a slight—

and then people just felt like— sorry, people just, when they saw it, they're like, oh my God, you guys normalized our relationship.

Yeah, yeah, that we were a mirror. We held up a mirror to like most couples because Rainn and I Working with Dr. John Gray, learned so many important little values about, you know, how this whole couple thing works. And one of them is that it's, it's truly only 5 to 6 maybe percent of people or couples who are passed down this incredible aura surrounding—

We hate those people.

We hate those freaking people. We are not those people. He comes from a divorce. I come from like, I think my, my family running from Stalin for, for 4 generations, you know.

It—

and so that's who a lot of us are. We're trying, we're trying to sort, you know, the, the thing of it. I did want to add, um, just a very personal part of what I saw occurring when we were making a documentary. Documentaries are super interesting. There is an edit, and an edit— and editing is kind of everything. You could say that the Menendez brothers are guilty, or you could say that the Menendez brothers are innocent. And I've learned a lot with this.

You can say we landed on the moon.

We can say we landed on the moon and we didn't, 150%. And we'll never know. But one of the things that happened was when you're first figuring out, okay, what is this? Um, all these like ideas come. And because it was meant to be a music documentary, one of the ideas that I remember early on, uh, Rainn and our, our producing partner had was like, well, Chantal, you're in a lot of sessions right now with these artists you're working with, go in and film yourself. And I got physically ill. I got physically ill for 2 reasons. One was there's something I have inside of me, I think it's a profound insecurity of like maybe imposter syndrome, that I don't even belong in the room with Kendrick Lamar or something like that. But I had this like, I can't go in there feeling. Or with the camera. With the camera.

But you did and—

No, no, no, I did and I hated it. It was horrible. But also I had a very deep-rooted feeling about wanting people to know we struggle. And let's make this a tiny— I believe in tiny stories. I think that's great art because that's where truth and authenticity truly live. And I wanted to just truly make it teeny tiny about our little life, our little what happens here, not—

Yeah. In the edit booth, that's what came out. It was like, let's just be honest. Let's not— we tried to recreate scenes. Like, one director we were working with was like, oh, we need to set up the scene. We were just like, This— none of this. The only thing that was honest was some of the conflict or some of the discussions or hurt feelings or whatever that led to writing a song and then seeing that song born. And I think it worked for that. And what it did for me specifically, because I was— I'm, I'm just essentially more of an insular person. It felt like it gave me permission, especially with the validation from fans like, hey, we really love this. Like, I love that you guys are showing the actual, like, you know, the real. It's messy.

Like, it is.

And, and because it's based— it was based initially on getting to the song. I almost tricked myself into like doing this thing with Chantal now where I feel somewhat empowered to, to speak about a relationship because I do believe you have to bring creativity to relationships. So there's all these kind of threads that tie together through me. Otherwise, 10 years ago, I would have never done this.

Something that your documentary really highlights is how in our relationships, it's not these big moments, the sick parent or the change in your career. It's actually The micro moments.

And this— that's a fascinating question to me because we actually have a song that's called I'm Gonna Break Your Heart that I think speaks to the way we look at exactly what you're talking about. Chantal has this theory. The song I'm Gonna Break Your Heart, I still to this day believe in the moment it was written, that title, because when you commit to someone forever, it's like, it's an amazing thing, but ultimately someone's gonna die first and have their heart broken. Chantal's take of it is so wacky.

No, it's not, because it came from Dr. John Keating.

Well, let me explain.

So yeah, I know, but I didn't—

So Chantal's thing is that there's all these mini heartbreaks that happen every day, which to me is like exhausting to think about.

The reason I think he says like, no, no, no, I don't want to do therapy, is because he doesn't want to be therapized and he doesn't want to talk about— he doesn't want to get into the micro. He doesn't want to get into—

Oh, that's not true. I just feel like you can, like anything, you can become obsessed with it. Um, and I think when that happens, it's fine to be obsessed on your own with something, But when, when you have this relationship and you have to pull someone into that obsession, you just got to be careful. It's just, it's like everything, just moderation, balance. I'm obviously on this journey with Chantal. She always takes it a few steps further, which I admire.

No, I'm not a few steps further. I'm just a little further ahead. Sure, baby.

It's okay.

I say that to Greg as well. I say that to Greg. I'm a little bit further ahead than you guys. Yeah, I know. You're guiding the way.

Yeah, no, I— look, I wouldn't be the person I am without Chantal in my life, 100%. So I totally admire that and respect her. But I do— I always— I feel like there's— I hate generalizing, so I'm not going to say it's a female thing, but whoever is the maximizer in the relationship—

Well, 70% of the time it's the female.

Okay, there you go. Science.

Perfect.

So it's working for you now.

But the idea of always being in therapy, I don't think is great. I think that it's like you do have to live. You'd have to enjoy your life. Rely on those tools you learn, especially like some of the things we learned from Dr. John are so like, I don't wanna say they're precision, but it's just like, it's, it, they're concise. It's CPR, catch, pause, you know, repair. Like I said it to you last night when we were having a little bit of argument in here. I was like, can we just pause? Like, I love having that toolkit, but you just don't want to be always in therapy. That's my point.

I love that you just said that, Rainn, because I often say to people, you need to pause. Let's pause. And it sounds almost therapy glitchy of, oh yeah, there's a therapist saying to pause for a moment. But it's so true because our brains, our brains are going so fast that we can't keep up with it. And if we keep going, that's the spiral. That's where you get stuck.

Some of the things that we have said to each other are abhorrent, like when there's another thing happening, and then now we bring up stuff from the past, or we, we make broad stroke statements about the other that are really hurtful. And I think you really have to be able to learn to be situational and have a strategy surrounding how to have that conversation with your partner about that thing.

Yeah.

And what is amazing to me is that even though we absolutely unequivocally know that, we will still fall back. Especially like when Rainn and I, because we do have this like weird, like, I don't know, like best, best like friend thing and it slips in. And then I feel like, you know, he'll think he can get away with or just say something and, oh, it's cute, it's funny. But it's still the thing. That is against the rule. And like, I'm, I'm, I'll, I'll think in my mind, oh yeah, do I just want to be like super light about this right now and let it go and kind of laugh it off? Am I honoring our rules? Am I honoring how I really feel inside? Like, these are really challenging questions that, you know, we are all asking ourselves at all times. Like, am I going to give my husband a pass on that right now? Does he give me a pass on that right now?

I think, I think what you said is really key that like, it's so easy to spiral as a, as a person, as a, because we're, it's, it's hard to self-regulate. Like in the moment, right? Especially I feel like everyone is work. Everyone wakes up at like an eight and a half on the stress level anyway today. Yeah, just the culture, the society we lived in. And so the idea of pause—it is so simple, but I think it's like a game changer once you realize when to activate it because it diffuses everything. You get to—we when we did a mago, we were talking about this in our last podcast about this this woman Francine. Her her—it was basically pause. It was CPR in a different way. It was like. Hey, if you're, if there's something you're angry about, don't park it, park it, go write it on a, like a journal, come back in a week. And if it still bugs you, then you talk about it. And so it was just a different way to approach the CPR and the pause element. But, um, yeah, I think it's, it's probably not to rate the stuff we've learned, but I think the pause part is like, saves my life.

If I could lean into something more as a couple, because I do think that those tools have probably, have probably saved our marriage for sure. Yeah. You know, I am not a pauser.

No, you're not. Yeah.

I am like a, how can I prove—

But that's a maximizer thing.

That's it. How can I prove this out?

Describe maximizer.

It's like I get smart and I just start throwing in like, and also combined with, I need to address this and fix this right now.

I think that it's something about you think you can fix it.

Well, and I—

What would Rain be referred to as then? The minimizer?

Oh, yes.

Maximizer, minimizer. Okay.

So I would take him down to like dismisser level, like, you know, until it happens to him. And then now we have an opportunity. But it takes a lot. Like last night when the chicken was big.

Before we started, I had said that couples fight over the silliest things.

They divorce over things that are ridiculous.

Right. Like it's the, you know, how do you boil water?

Chicken.

Last night. Why did you leave your mug beside the kitchen sink?

Yes. I'm Italian. I made fried chicken.

Oh, I love how you said I'm Italian. I love that you said I'm Italian. Next time I say I'm a 52-year-old woman. Okay. I love this.

No, no, this is context. This is context for like—

I love this.

I'm not a chef, but there's a few things I know how to cook, you know. I learned from my grandmother how to cook chicken cutlets in olive oil properly. She went to the store. I said get avocado oil, just so a little healthier. Bought me some spray, so I had to cook them in something different.

Your son did that idea.

So they look different.

And she looks at them before she even really went up to them, like, did you burn those?

No, I said—

And so I was offended. I was offended. Wasn't that serious, But which is the trigger.

That's the entry point.

And we were already— and everything was already a little heated on some other things.

Like, you left the room, Maida. No, you were offended. You had to go.

No, but this is the thing. This is—

By the way, if I'm going to refer to myself, I call myself the blamer. That's my term. But I am a maximizer in our relationship. I know exactly where to go. And Greg will sometimes do this little, like, eye thing that he thinks I can't see. Oh, he does it too. Or it's this kind of like hand flip if we're driving and And it's so subtle, and I see it out the corner of my eye, and I'm like, right there, no, like, we're going in for it, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's these small moments, though.

It's not really about the chicken. It's about, like, seeing the effort.

Where it went for me was, um, I could not be situational now.

Yes.

Because I could not. No, no, no, no, no. Because I am a 52-year-old woman who has raised 3 plus him.

Mm-hmm.

Boys.

Boys. Mm-hmm.

3 boys.

I'll give you 4 boys.

This home where I have balanced trying to keep us on the rails domestically with quite frankly people would be astonished how little help for all that you guys do.

Therapy session.

Of course it is. We have the opportunity to sit with the doctor. No, I have been. I have had to grow thick skin. Okay, if I paint a picture and it's not. I think you called me a snowflake.

I called him a snowflake.

I said I live in the house with a bunch of soft. Softies. This is unbelievable how offended he got. How many times I've been told my pasta was not al dente, or that I, you know, have no flavor in the stew, or that my asparagus is overcooked, I wrecked it. You know, how many times? Like, moms go through that all the time, and it hurts. But I have had to get—

So you know how I feel.

It is interesting. So it should have been that he was feeling it for the first time. And like, I was like, I wanted to make the joke I really wanted to make was Okay, so I'm getting an apology right now for all the times. This is you seeing, right? You see, right? But instead—

That's the bigger moment that we— that I think so many women too is like, when I see my husband finally experiencing the years of what I've experienced, then I want to go, well, now how does it feel to be you? Right? Or how does it— but that doesn't work.

What's really, really interesting about that to me is that that's kind of everything. Because compassion and empathy are the beginning of all possibilities, all potential for healing, all potential for growth, all potential for creativity. I truly, truly believe it. And my favorite similar but different, like, story on a sort of a really— I think everybody can relate— level is when Dick Cheney said, I cannot—

What?

I cannot have gay marriage be legal. But then his own daughter came out and she wanted to marry her wife, and he changed his position, and he changed the world. He changed the world because he felt his own child experiencing something that mattered to her. Now, he ended up backflipping, but eventually. But the point is just that in all areas of life, I believe that there is a spectrum for how easily we can feel someone else's experience.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that women are a little bit more deeply connected because we have children and so on. And so, feel things and we're kind of waiting for our partner. That's the nice thing about staying with somebody for our whole life together because we get to go through all the things and I get to see his growth, he gets to see mine, you know.

There's 2 pieces in there. One, I had this thought earlier thinking about the work you guys have done and shared is that oftentimes people get hung up on this vision of who that person was when you first met, and then that's the story or the belief we want to hold on to. Remember those first 6 weeks we were together and how easy it was?

6 weeks? Oi!

I mean, like, you know, like the honeymoon stage, right? But instead of the evolution of 2 people and choosing each other every day.

Is your line in the film that the perfection, no progress, yes?

Well, it's not about perfection, it's about progress. I particularly love the evolution more than anything. Like, I think the honeymoon period, however long it lasts, is fine. But learning together, growing together, that's where like the real gold is, you know?

Yeah, which does take time and patience.

And it takes— you have to actually, you have to lean in. Like, if that— and that's the problem. I think there has to be equity in a relationship where, yes, Chantel definitely Probably starts those conversations more.

But I also push you to say like we're all like when I'm really, really like, like really, really, I'll be like, I need you to take the reins on however this is gonna get better because I'm tired. And I know a lot of women get that fatigue of being the cheerleader. And even that becomes a challenge. I think women tend to put forth toward their partners because otherwise it's, it's It's, it's not gonna work. Yeah, it's—

but it is balanced too, because I, I, you know, we're talking about maximizer and, and even that thing about the chicken, like Chantel couldn't stop. And so at the end of the day, it's like, I have, you know, the thing about the best way to ruin an apology is with an excuse. When you keep talking, it's like, okay, you said sorry, I get it, thank you, let's stop.

Thank you.

And you just stand there and you just keep going. I'm like, okay, we're like, we're almost through this. But there's also something in knowing, because we've been through so much shit, that it's gonna work out.

That security is huge. There's nothing like that. She's not gonna say, well, then I'm out. And so many people today do this though, and it's an exit strategy. And it's—

Yeah, we try to say—

Well, you can basically set up your new life online on your phone, you know, and—

But you don't have the security and the knowing of each other. And the willingness to say—

They underestimate the power of that history. That was one of the first things that Dr. John said to us. 'Cause we'd been together about 12 years at the time, something like that. Or maybe longer. Yeah, maybe 15. But he said, wow, you have, you already have a few kids and oh my gosh. And then he was like, gee, this happened, that, oh wow. Well, you have a lot of history together. That's amazing. And that was the first time that anybody— because you look at your parents, right? And people are like, oh, we're having our 55th wedding anniversary. And it's like you think of yourselves as these little fledgling whatever. But the truth is that, wow, day upon day you are building this amazing history together.

Oh.

And it is truly worth fighting for. More and more, the older I get, I'm talking to people who on their on their ex's deathbed, who's there? Yeah, their partner. Their partner that they've divorced 22 years ago. Who's driving them to the chemotherapy appointments? Who is with them when dot dot dot dot? You know, and and also there's way too much emphasis on the very unattainable. The reality is that like people are not sucking face and having sex like bunnies like for, you know, some people are, but that's not the norm for everybody. And you don't have to feel shame about what your partnership looks like. I am committed to this man. Yeah, and it changes all the time, but he is my person and I swear to God I will not let someone else be the second. I am the second, third, fourth, and fifth wife. Thank you very much. I get to have all the growth of him.

Oh yeah, that's such a good, good piece. There to say, we're going to be this version of ourselves. And now we're being this version of ourselves. I wonder, Rayne, it is exciting when we can view it that way. I know, I know a lot of people will say, my husband doesn't want to do this work, right, in the sense of, we don't need therapy. It's not that bad. We don't need to get a coach. And I wonder a bit, what would you say to those men who dig their heels in or say we don't need to?

Yeah, it's so simple. Like, again, the The piece of equity, like I don't think a relationship works if you don't validate that. And the easiest way to validate that is by going on that journey. And and like I said, there's there's balances. But you are gonna get it tonight, baby. But to think but but to think that to think that I mean look you know what I can't remember talking about before we started this, but the idea that you can get a license you know yeah to drive a a weapon basically. But we all get into this oh I know because you said. I was saying to you, you're putting all this effort in. Yeah, well, we know some— yeah, someone in our family's doing pre-marriage. And I'm like, wow, that even that is like, it's so valuable.

But I was also saying to you at some other point, was it you I was saying it to? It's like, we put so much effort into this job, that project, our golf game, or whatever it is. Why on earth Would you not be trying?

And I'll say, yeah, I think sometimes with guys it is more of that like Sopranos thing where it's just like, I don't do therapy. But the idea, something that really didn't, it didn't change my mind because I understand that I needed it. But if you have a family as well, like therapy is really, it's about, it's like, it's got such a weird thing. I love the idea of coaching better than therapy. The ads definitely get that. It's like, you know, you film your kid at the hockey rink and then you get in the car later and you show him what he's doing wrong, what he's doing right. Like that kind of coaching is the same thing with, with the relationship. But at the end of the day, it's communication skills. But by improving your communication skills with your partner, not only are you, are you sending signals to your children of how to be in a healthy relationship, you're going to have better communication with them. It's holistic, you know.

And so he tells people, even if you don't end up together, do it because it will change your perspective on life. It will actually, you know.

Yeah, you take it in the workplace. I— it's, it's helped With with my band, with OLP, like it's it's so invaluable learning those those communication pieces. And I think that's maybe the the it's it's weird. It's like I'm not trying to like remove the stigma of therapy, but there is stigma around that word that is off-putting for for males for sure.

I don't yeah. I don't like the drudge. I remember the very little bit we touched on when we did our our marriage coaching. with John at first, he, he was like, well, we don't, we don't need to go on and on about it. And I actually, there was some memory, I can't remember right now what it was, but it was about a bit that excavation, like, here, this is who I am. This is what makes me tick. This is why I am this way. Here's the healing I need from, from you as my, you know, reassurer-in-chief.

Yeah.

Okay. And, and getting to know someone truly, like I always say, I didn't know him until we We went for our first coaching session, and then I was like, "Oh, this is who this person is. Okay, I get it." But I remember that I had, when describing a memory, heat shooting up my back from the bottom, from the base of my spine into my neck, in such a way that I had to ask, "Do I need to go to like urgent care? Like am I gonna have a stroke? Like what is going on with me?" And Dr. John just very calmly said. No, you're gonna be fine. Let's, you know, and it was essentially like a primal, like kind of anxiety attack, which was bigger than me. And, you know, we just screwed over it. But when we, what he educated us about was that when you do drudge continually, which is what a lot of people get into the pattern of doing, the words you are saying are physical.

Mm-hmm.

A lot of people think you're being silly when you say, you know, words are physical violence or what have you. I tend to disagree with them. The words come out, they go back in your ear, and you reprocess. And because I think you change every single day, the new you who thought was better, who was stronger, who was more mature, whatever, is now hearing those words again. You are seeing your, your child self abused again. You are seeing, you know, something you hadn't thought of in a long time again. You know.

You lost me.

And so, It's important.

We're saying when our mind goes to a certain place and we replay these narratives, or your partner keeps saying to you every day, you're never helping out, you don't do enough— like, the repetition, that repetition becomes almost—

it's bodily, it's abusive, right? Right.

Yeah, I was still, I was still on the, like, what do you say to men? And I, and I think one thing that kind of gets overlooked is that, you know, these communication skills and learning them, it's mental And we, and we, and I think everyone's on board of like, hey, mental health should be treated just no different. You have a cancer. It's like, you can't see it, but it's there and it's real. And let's treat these people the same way. Removing stigma around mental health. I think the same thing applies now with therapy and just in terms of, yeah, we're just trying to evolve. And that mental health aspect of it, even, even as a man, like, like we were talking before, knowing that when we're in a fight, that it's okay. Like you're committed. Like, yep, I might not be having sex tonight, but the idea is that we're going to get through this. Like there's a mental health aspect of that that is really calming.

And also breaking through that narrative though, that sex equals all closeness. Sex is one form of closeness. But because of how many men grew up, they didn't get to put sex and love together. Sex was separate. Orgasms were separate. Women are often taught—

Oh, they're not? No, I'm just kidding.

Women are taught Love first and then sex. Yeah.

Or that love is sex. Yes.

So then that, that's tricky then because then you're coming together with 2 different experiences. So then it's the, we're having a fight but we're not necessarily having sex. How else are we feeling close together? Through the, let's get out that game we like to play. Let's—

oh yeah, did you order our Scrabble? You said you were gonna order.

Yes, I did.

No, beside each other, right? We do that and share all the things. Maybe not chicken Maybe next time. But yeah, it was really good chicken.

I do— something that's important, just not to go on and on about it, but the thing of, in our film, normalizing like the conflicts that we had, I think what we took out of it was like, you have to find your music. Like that we make music together.

Oh yeah, we make music.

But, and I love that and it's incredible. But honestly, like going on a walk together with our dogs, after dinner. Things like that are— I look forward to it because you are connecting. Even if we don't talk, like, it's, yeah, it's like, it's a commitment thing. It's incredible. All right.

I'm sorry that I babbled on with regard to the drudging. I just do want to add to— do you see what happened there? When I started to talk about the drudge and how therapy doesn't work because of the drudge, he was gone.

No, I was trying to figure out, like, we're talking about how to get men into it.

And but you and me, we thought that that was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I think she does. I can see both. I see both ends.

But the point is that like, that's annoying. Like, I think for him, that's going off topic. And men are wired differently than women. And one of the things that I have been really, really working on within myself, and I, he'll say, really? Oh, this is great. Are you really? Because I probably have made incremental tiny steps forward. But at some point, you know, it's important that you accept that your partner is not everything, everyone, all that you are, every step you're growing and changing, perimenopause, menopause, career. Like, my brain pathology is literally reforming now, and I have millions of deaths happening in my body and probably primal grief.

That's crazy.

I mean, well, sorry.

And it's not, you know, we're not prepared for this because—

No, we didn't know. We didn't.

Didn't know.

We did not design it. No, we did not. And so, yeah, like I signed up to be your sexy, you know, hot bosomed partner and look at what happened. My children sucked it all away and I'm a different lady now and I freak out now. I used to be like, I would never, 2, 3, 4 years ago, have walked away and said, you're all a bunch of goddamn snowflakes. I would never have had the spine.

No.

Ever. She's a bit better now. Well, I mean, if we were to side rail into harm, we won't go into the hormones and what's happening for women No, but there is— so there's almost this piece in here that we're touching on, which is what it means to be parents together. And when then you think, we're not going to trudge through all the stuff, but what was modeled to us.

Sure.

And then how we're trying to do differently with our kids.

Oh.

And, and I know people will instantly say, book for parents? Yes, I'll get the book for, for how to be a better parent. But then when the marriage book is right beside it, guess which one they're more likely Yeah.

Well, it's interesting because I don't— like, I think they're both the same. Like I said, I, again, I think it's all about the, the breakdowns we have as people, as humans. It's communication, right? So there's no— I don't think that— I don't know, delineation between— they're the same thing. They're all the same.

And so, yeah.

And I also think you can't be great parents if you're not connected and you're not modeling that within your house. Any, you know, that, that, that's step one. Is to show that this is what a healthy relationship is, and that's— we should have this as well. When your mom and I are angry, like, our kids, when they see us doing our podcast or talking about stuff or going through conflict—

That's awesome.

I think, like, that's awesome. Trying to tell them that is way different than them, like, observing it and saying, whoa, maybe when I have a fight with my girlfriend, this is how we should—

Yeah, I think it's subconscious. Yeah, it's earworm stuff, probably, you know, because, like, our oldest still thinks that we're totally out of touch and we get everything wrong.

But he doesn't.

He says that because You know, it's a form of, yeah, post-pubescent manipulation.

Yeah, I, I, I truly feel like they've, they've been able to— same way some of our fans have said the same thing. Yeah, it's just like, it's— you're modeling it. It's like, how can you not?

We're all modeling to each other, aren't we? Right?

We're all influencing each other. We all grow. We all change every day. It's a chance. And I often think of trees and how the moment is, am I going to turn towards you and grow my branches towards you in these moments? You know, you think of our roots or our history, but it's really the choices every single day. And it's so small, right? You think about fighting about chicken. It's just the smallest little moment. It's not the big conflicts that break couples.

I shouldn't go to, well, I had to grow thick skin for the past almost 30 years about too much garlic, too little salt, and all the things. And here we are. Instead, it should have simply been, Whoa, okay, he's probably not in a great mood right now and he's hurt. And that's really like— Dr. John really brought us back to that understanding of like the core feeling is pain. It's just hurt and alone. Yeah, hurt and alone. That's it. Unlovable hurt alone. Like just very— it's just a very small— it all roads lead back to.

Absolutely.

And so how can I in that moment If I could just remember that, how could I be a good partner in this moment and serve my partner and remove my own self?

Life is so dynamic. It's so stressful. I think that's why the pause thing is so important. Like not to go back to it again, but like that can save everything. Just pausing. If you can both commit to that, reframe things, take a breath, realize through, you know, it's like, it's what everyone always said, count to 10. You know, I think that's hard to do in the moment.

Because we're control freaks.

Well, no, but it's hard to like actually take, because it takes time where I think pause is brilliant because actually, as soon as you say, I just need to pause, it like diffuses everything for a minute and it gives you time to heal even on your own and come back to a conflict in a much, much more healthy manner.

One of the challenges for myself as that more blamer, externalizer, fast thinker, I think really quickly. And so I can process things faster than Greg. And so I've had to really learn to slow myself down. And give him space because sometimes I'll be sitting there thinking, just say it already. Like, it's in there. I know it's there. I know what you're feeling. Just say it already. And it's hard because I have to remember he's different than I am. We're going to experience emotions in the world differently. And it's okay if he doesn't do it in the way that I do. But it is this like, I have to slow down. And that's so hard.

I made a conscious effort starting several, I think years ago now, To slow down. And the way that I do it is I actually, especially during conflict or in moments when I'm feeling overwhelmed with the thoughts going too quickly, so what I do is I actually lower my voice consciously and I actually slow the words that I'm saying down.

Uh-huh.

Um, and I am amazed, uh, how that speaks to, um, a conflict we're having Resolving quicker. I actually put it to the test sometimes. I say to myself as it is starting, if I can, you know, you don't always get that little catch, but I'll say, okay, when I respond right now, I'm gonna do so in as neutral a tone I can find that is gentle, that is non, uh, you know, not informative, like just like kind of neutral. And I'm gonna slow my words and let's see. And it's amazing. Sometimes it's just resolved right there and then.

Yeah.

I think we're meant to help each other. Like, yeah, it's— I go back to— there's a— oh yeah, that's good. Like the Seinfeld episode where he finally meets like himself in a woman, the perfect person, like exactly like him. It doesn't work out, right? Because that's not—

Oh, I remember that episode too.

It's not even boring, it's just like, yeah, there's no chance for evolution if you're exactly the same. So the fact that, you know, them— and I know there's theories about You know, opposites attract, but—

She's your mirror. She's mirroring back to stuff that you're working through.

And John says that—

Yeah, I love that.

If you come together, maximizer, minimizer, the hope nature has, because nature seeks neutrality, is that within a life cycle together, you will become more like each other. And in the end, you know, have grown that, you know, Calm together, right?

So there's hope for us to be more calm. Yeah, I love that. And it's the— it's this idea, and we know this from the Gottman research as well, is that partners who influence each other and allow for influence are open. Yeah, they're more satisfied at follow-up. And it's more true, it's more impactful for men when they allow their partners to influence them. So that was kind of— not, not for me, it's the research, but it is, it's kind of interesting. There's There's one piece here that I think is so worth touching on in the sense of your own autonomy, because when we think about intimacy and healthy relationships, part of that is intimacy and interconnectedness, but then also autonomy. And I'm curious how you have both evolved with that or balanced it.

I feel like some of it is luck. When I met Rainn, I was really on my path as a solo artist career woman. And he had a thing. So, you know, no Yoko Ono's here. And he, you know, we really liked what we saw each other doing. We were sort of, I, if I might say so, we were kind of like fans of what each other was up to and watching each other. And it was nice.

Yeah. We were totally playing. I think that, and I think we were getting about the independence part is really critical, I think.

But interdependent as opposed to codependent or independent.

And interdependence is the balance of Interconnectedness and intimacy. That's it. And autonomy and independence. Because when you lose yourself in the other person, it is a natural pushing against each other. You actually don't want it.

What did you say earlier, um, that was— that really spoke to this about— you just said it about the, um— oh man.

I, I really look— I, on the creative side, I look at it very much in a parallel way where, you know, I can't sit here and record new music if I haven't gone out there and done things and lived life and being able to bring that back to the songs. And I think relationships are the same way where if you don't have that independence or that interdependence, then it's just— I think growth kind of stagnates a bit.

Yeah. To grow, you need to leave and come back.

Not on like a 9-week tour like happened this summer, which was not good. But the idea of growing yourself so you bring that freshness into relationships.

Do you think we've gotten past the— he was gone like 8 or 9 weeks and it's almost taken 8 or 9 weeks to heal from that and get— That's not true. Well, for you, but it was, you know.

Well, you just went away for 3 weeks. It was fine.

Yeah, because it's not 9. And I was with our son for part of it. You know, you're I had lunch with your sister. You know what I mean? Like there was stuff. But yeah, I I think that yeah, you're just doing blow and hanging out with that. Um, no, I think that interdependency is oh yeah when Raines I know what it was. He said you know each couple sort of has to find their music. Yeah, right. And this is another value that really got instilled in me from from John and from. from the Imago Institute's values. And that is that when each couple should find something in which they are a team, something that is just for them. Like, I have these friends in Winnipeg that just inspire me so much, back in my hometown. They sail together.

Hmm.

And they go every 2 weeks and they leave for 3 or 4 nights and they're off in this island or that and they sail. And they're real neat, you know, they do this together. But she is an occupational therapist and he's an accountant, but this is their thing together. But the thing is that when you do try to find Your music, whatever that is. The equity is important because if it's a it's the hubby going, "Hey honey, will you? I'm gonna teach you how to golf." That's him once again. It's patriarchal. It's a little bit you know patronizing. It needs to be something that you discover together. And every time Rain and I work together, ugh, like it's luck with us. But thank God we figured it out. Like oh, by the way, we're a duo. Who would have thunk it? Because we really do get that discovery piece together. So I think that discovery, even as an individual without being a couple with someone, you know, in life, if you're not in that discovery place, I think you do get stagnant. Yeah. But as a couple, finding a point of entry to discovery is, I just think, integral.

I love that. I could sit here and chat relationships all day with I love it.

It's a review. You know what I mean? It's such a review in what those values are. So I really appreciate the conversation.

If you could leave people with one thing that you wish you had have learned earlier, what would that be?

Brain.

I mean, I feel like it's redundant at this point. The catch, pause, repair part of it, understanding that CPR concept's amazing. I will say the thing that changed my life was eye gazing. You know, the idea of being able to sit across from your partner and just quietly and closely look into their eyes for like 30 seconds or 60 seconds still terrifies me. But there is— I don't know if— and maybe it's a guy thing, maybe it's just a me thing. There is nothing more vulnerable and magical at the same time than going through that exercise.

Couples do not like when I get them to do that in my therapy room. Oh yeah. It takes you down. But the magic though, the magic that comes out of it. I'm never gonna forget this couple who just— they were raging at each other. They hadn't spoken all week. We did it, and then after, they're both in tears, understanding something different about each other. That's powerful.

Yeah, I thought it was— it's always been like a bit of a cliché that it, you know, your eyes are a channel to your soul, but they really are. And with that simple, crazy exercise, it's like, I think you'll know either way. Like, I actually really really deeply care and want to take care of this person, or maybe you don't.

Um, mine is that I remember the, just the like terror, the, the debilitating fear of being exposed by doing work together. And honestly, I could cry because I know I would not be married to this person, and I wouldn't know how to be married in all these iterations of, of myself, of us as a family if we had not done that work. And if I could go back, I would, I would do it sooner. I'd do it before I was married. I would do it when I got married. And my wish for everyone is that, you know, if you have that fear or there's something stopping you, just don't think. Go and do it because you will have a better quality of life. And you— there's so much more hope by doing, um, just some simple work. It may seem tough, but it's amazing. You will connect with your partner and yourself.

Yeah, those 2 pieces are so good. Just do this work and then look into each other's eyes, ground yourself and the other person. You guys, thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Congrats on the book.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness, thank you. As we close today's conversation, I want to leave you with a few pieces that really stood out to me from Chantal and Rain's story—pieces I hope you'll hold close in your own relationship. And of course, be sure to check out Chantal and Rain's Substack. I've got the link for you in the show notes, and I also have their documentary information there as well. First, remember that repair matters. more than perfection. Every couple has ruptures, but the couples who last are the ones who learn how to pause, reconnect, and come back to each other with a sense of curiosity, with softness, with openness, instead of spiraling deeper into the conflict. Repair is the heartbeat of long-term love. Second, healthy relationships are built on interdependence. This is the balance of honoring your own individuality While also choosing connection. It sounds so easy to say, but it's actually incredibly difficult to do. When each person continues to grow and evolve within themselves, the relationship with each other also grows. And here's the thing that I think is so important. We don't need to lose ourselves in our relationships. You need to first know who you are, come back to you, and keep bringing that into your partnership. And finally, every couple needs Their music. I'm using that in quotation marks. Not necessarily a creative project, but something that belongs to just the two of you. This really stood out for me from our conversation and what we had talked about once I had ended the recording. This was around our stories of shared rituals or a hobby, a small practice that reminds you that you are a team. I know when I think of Greg and I, we are constantly creating together because we're in business together. And while that's one element And it does also require us to go outside of our business and to find places where we can play and not be business-focused so that we have that other part with each other. And I think these small moments of togetherness create such a deep sense of we, of us, even in the busiest or hardest seasons. All right. Thank you for tuning in today. If something from today's conversation resonated Please share this episode with someone you love, rate it, review, and don't forget to subscribe. It's one of the best ways that you can support the podcast. Take good care of you, and I will see you next time.

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