Why Avoiding Conflict Is Sometimes About Control

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go-to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries, in-laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good. If you have ever said, I don't want to upset you, I don't want to say it wrong, or I know this is going to turn into a fight, or if your partner has ever said those things to you, this episode is for you. Greg, do you know these common statements?

Uh, one of them in particular.

Which one?

I don't want to upset you.

Ooh.

The monitor. I'm like the hall monitor.

The Tracy monitor.

Not my best work, but if I'm being honest, that's, that's my default.

Yeah. And today we're going to talk about avoidance is about control.

Or we think it is.

Or we think it is. And we're going to talk about digging out what's underneath this. What's this really about? And I think there's a really good caveat that I want to start out with this episode, because something I'm constantly mindful about in this community and the work that we do in our own self-work is that insight Feels really good. And if you're listening—

It's like a dopamine hit. Is that what you're saying?

Absolutely. Oh, we all love that good aha moment in therapy where the connection just like everything lights up and you're, oh, that's what I'm doing. But I just want you as the listener to know that insight is just one layer of the work that we need to do. And that oftentimes there's another layer we have to do next.

You mean the work, like changing? This resonates with me because, like, I mean, this has happened so much for us. Like, oh yeah, I do do that, or you do that. Oh, that's really cool to understand. But then you don't do anything different. Cycle repeats on and on. Is that fair to say?

Absolutely. And I think it's the hardest piece, even in couples work, because we can name the pattern. I can know, oh, I did the thing and then you did the thing, and then actually changing it is incredibly hard. So if you are in that position where it does feel a little harder to make these changes, I do want you to know there are other resources available to you. If you like to learn on your own and you've been struggling with what happens after the fight, I've got a workshop for you. It's one of my favorite ones. One person who took it told me they had pages of notes while they watched it, when they went through it, and they had actual tools on what they can do next time to feel closer and how to actually repair. So, I'll put the link for that in the show notes. But, I also know that sometimes we want someone to sit with us side by side. And, that's where my couples intensives come into place. This is 2 days, me working with you actually changing the pattern in your cycle. I have noticed through 20 years of working with couples that one of the hardest parts of this in couples therapy is getting enough of the dose of therapy. Because what tends to happen is we are incredibly busy, you need to carve out a time, an hour in 3 sessions. And so now here's what happens is 50 to 60 minutes, your nervous system enters into this space, does a little bit of this work, maybe even feels hijacked, hypervigilant, overwhelmed. And then you have to package it all up in a box and then go back into your life. Guess what happens in your life? You easily spiral into the cycle again that night. Or maybe you even leave wondering, so what's my next move? And that's where my intensives have really shifted the way I'm working with people, because I'm spending 2 days with you. We are deep dive into, into the work that you need to be doing. I'm not leaving your nervous system escalated and hypervigilant after 50 minutes. We're actually waving through and changing how you then communicate with your partner, how you can actually change the cycle as it activates in session. Because that's what it does. So it really is that dose effect. It's about getting an adequate dose. And I've noticed the positive responses from people who are doing the intensives.

Yeah, it might at first feel overwhelming for people, 'cause it could be a lot to take on. Like just for me, someone who thinks a bit logically, like if you take a step back and go like, yes, that makes a lot of sense. It's certainly an investment in money and time. But like for maybe the dudes out there listening whose partners might wanna consider something like this, like going to therapy once a week or a month, Over and over again, not changing. It's kind of a low-value proposition, where this is a little bit like you're kind of in it to be in it, and you're back out.

And it is an investment. So you invest in your relationship. So then come the holidays, or come your next vacation, you're not still stuck in the same pattern. And you've nailed it right there, Greg, which is that you come in for an hour once a month. And in couples therapy, it takes time to see your return on investment. And so once a month over a year, that's 12 sessions, when we see in the research that it takes about 14 to 20 sessions to actually be making changes.

Okay.

Okay.

We digress, but I wanted people to understand it.

I appreciate that. So what do you think about this as avoidance being actually about control? When did you learn that piece? And how then did you— like, what did you do with that?

I mean, fairly recently, I think It makes a lot of sense to me. It's not an intentional control. I think that's the difference here.

I don't feel controlled.

No, exactly. Control is a funny word. As the avoider in this room, it felt like protection, keeping the peace, avoiding conflict. So it felt kind of the opposite of control in a way. In a way, like, I'm giving you the control. I'm deferring to you. I want to make sure you're okay. But I think the reality is that's about protecting how I was feeling so I could keep continuing to avoid conflict or hard conversations or that kind of thing. So it's just, it's not something that lands intuitively, but when you kind of take a step back, it's like, oh yeah, I am trying to control how I feel by doing X, Y, and Z.

You're hitting on this piece around monitoring the other person's reaction. And I think that is what people who, A, are more avoidant, for sure, But B, who might actually be also more anxious. And so they use avoidance as a coping strategy. And it's because they want to make sure that everything is going to be okay. I, I want to present this to you in a certain way. And I want to know—

Jerkbiking.

Yes. Well, I'm going to ask you for the example. Don't worry. But it is the, I want to give this to you in such a way, I'm going to serve it on a platter. So there's no possible way that you will A, be upset, B, say no. Exactly right.

Yeah.

And, and so you're saying dirt biking. That's not the only example though. I think of other people that I work with.

Oh, that's my example.

That's your example. So an activity, right? So if you—

Activity that takes a lot of time. If your partner plays golf, that's another big one, you know, whatever.

We're about to— we're entering hunting season for many people too.

That's a big one.

So yeah, activities that take a long time and that in a way require you to leave the family for a certain amount of time. But I'm also thinking about the hard where, you know, things don't feel good. So I know many people around this time of year are starting to send me questions around dealing with extended family members, dealing with in-laws.

Yeah.

And so—

Holiday planning.

If, if you, as— I'll just take this as an example because it aligns with my book, You, Your Husband, and His Mother. If you, the male partner, you've received a text from your mother saying, we'd like to start planning the holidays. And if you've sat on that and not shown it to your partner or not talked to your partner because you're waiting for the right time, guess what? You are trying to control the outcome. And I think what's really tricky about this one, and you and I have talked about this a lot, is that it breaks the trust between 2 people in the sense that you have to trust the relationship in order to enter into hard conversations.

And take a risk.

And take a risk. So what what typically happens between us then around the dirt biking scenario? We'll just take that as an example.

So dirt biking is one of my passions and hobbies. It takes a lot of time. It requires some travel, blah blah blah.

You have to pack up all your gear. You have to get the trailer to the car. You put the bike on. You you don't just drive ten minutes like to the yoga session. No, you're driving forty.

I come back probably pretty tired.

You have to unpack.

Extremely physical.

You're dirty.

Oh yeah, that too.

The car is dirty.

Whatever the activity is, it doesn't matter.

Whatever the thing, the event.

I think I know, I know all that. So therefore I wait for the perfect time to discuss going.

Here's where Greg really misses this one, is that we're tuned. We're partners. Your other person Already knows. They already feel something is hanging between the two of you. And so what ends up happening is for many people who do use avoidance, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Oh, fuck yeah.

Greg waits and waits and waits. I feel him. So what he does, and he doesn't quite know, like he's not quite conscious of it, is I feel him actually slowly withdraw from me. And that can enter us into our spiral because I then go into my stuff and I wonder. Are we okay? What did I do wrong? What's wrong with us? Are— is it— and that's all my stuff.

Yeah.

And so it then becomes part of our pattern. And then when you do finally say the thing, have you given me a week's notice?

Probably not. But I want to be clear though, I'm not asking for your permission.

I don't—

because I think some dude listening is like, yo, I'm not sitting here asking for permission, but it's about consideration, right? We've got young kids, not a lot of support around.

We run our businesses.

Yes, there has to be some modicum of notice, that kind of thing, right? Is that fair to say?

Yeah, and I think you and I have a mutual agreement about what our values are, and those values being, A, we take time for ourselves. Yes, that's important and something that I do wish we had done earlier.

Even if it's asymmetrical.

Yeah, my 1-hour yoga session to your 6-hour event. I, I think the piece that is tricky in here— so, so what I want, I want to finish that thought. What I wish we had done earlier is when the kids were younger, every week one night is yours, one night is mine. And we still struggle to do this one.

We keep saying it, it's hard though.

We really do. You know what I think it is? I think it's just that I don't put anything in my calendar and to actually hold myself to it. So then Monday goes, goes by and it's like Do I feel like it rather than this being a scheduled event? If I had something scheduled with friends, I'd be there. But I think for what happens though, is that you're trying to keep the peace when that's actually not what I'm asking. I'm, I'm asking you to come and take a risk with me and be forthcoming about this kind of thing. But I think I really want someone listening not to feel like they're being blamed if this is the strategy that they use, because I, I really do understand it as a protective mechanism.

Yeah. It's very contextual too, to their, Specific relationship.

Yes.

And so the question then for yourself is, if you can relate to this, I avoid sharing something, expressing my needs because I'm trying to predict how it goes. First, ask yourself, what are the behaviors that you start to do ahead of time? And then get curious about yourself. Who else did you ever feel like you had to do that with? Or who did you see do that? in relationships, because we've learned it somewhere. And I know a lot of people will share past relationships or early childhood experiences. Some people will share, you know, every time I shared that I wanted something with my family, with one of my parents, I was told that I was selfish. Or if I wanted to go hang out with my friends, my mom would guilt trip me. And so there's often some early origins around this for your own self as part of that deeper pattern. I know other people say they take on other people's And that's the other piece around what this would require of you is this ability to withstand your partner being upset or disappointed or annoyed and annoyed, any of that, right?

Which they're allowed to be. Just us avoiders don't like it.

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My favorite time, and maybe we talked about this a few years ago here on the podcast, my favorite time was when you came to me and said, I know this is last minute, it came up last minute, so I just want you to know that. I'd like to go biking tomorrow. And I said, okay. And you said, but I feel guilty.

Yeah, we have said this.

I said, yes, so go ahead and go biking.

And feel guilty.

And feel guilty. And you're like, well, that's not fair. How am I going to be present? And I had basically said, well, the guilt is for you to have to go deal with.

Yeah.

And you have to go and do the thing even when you feel guilty. And, you know, when you came back, you're like, I had no problems being present. But you still had to get over that feeling. So, okay, so we can see this as a protective intention, but I think I think the piece that I want to really acknowledge about this is this counter-truth to what avoidance is doing for us. So we think that avoidance is about controlling the outcome.

We're trying to control the outcome.

Trying to control.

Often not consciously though. I think that's really important to flag.

What's interesting from the research though is that people who are higher in avoidance and people who are the partners who withdraw and shut down, Okay. They actually feel lower relational power.

Can you expand on that? That sounds like therapy speak. Help us lay folks.

This is the sense of, I feel like I can stand on my own 2 feet. I feel like I can tell you that I would like to go to bed by myself, or I want to be able to go see friends tonight, but I don't want to tell you, right? So you end up feeling like you have no power In the relationship. And a relationship is made up of 2 separate people co-creating who both feel a sense of power or feeling empowered to be able to vocalize feelings, thoughts, needs, knowing that it is safe to do so with the other person. So, so that's interesting, right? Because we use this strategy in hopes of controlling the outcome, but the side effect of that is the opposite.

Mm-hmm.

And really the thing that people need to be working on, and I actually, I'll say this right here. I think it's important for us to recognize that this isn't just men as avoidant. I have lots of clients in my therapy practice and my coaching practice where the woman is more avoidant.

Oh, totally. I'm sure.

And she's monitoring and she's trying to find the right time to say something.

Yeah. I'm sure that's, is that more common? That'll be anecdotal. You don't have to answer that.

Yeah. I think that's anecdotal. And I mean, we know what the research shows, But in terms of clinically, that would be more anecdotal. I think it's just important, though, to acknowledge that the goal is for us to actually build intimacy and to be able to do that in partnership. It's about tolerating your partner's disappointment.

Totally. I mean, just, just putting a pin on the last thought, though, too. So someone who is the avoider, just to come back to that, it does result in kind of less control. And less feeling of power. Because when you avoid and you don't do it and you don't share and you don't do the hard thing, what typically happens? You often don't get the outcome you desire.

Hmm.

Therefore, less satisfaction, less sense of power. Maybe it doesn't work out to go do your activity. You then get resentful, you get annoyed, and then it just kind of cycles again, right? So it is just like a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way, right? Like, it just It completely backfires.

It feeds into everything. It's not just about you going and doing something that fills you up. It's also then about your intimacy and sex, because if you are also someone that withdraws sexually, that could be part of the cycle. I know I'm going to have a sex therapist and an emotionally focused couples therapist on the podcast. So my brain's conceptualizing that part.

More to come.

More to come on that one. But that's also this sense of what happens with desire. And are you, when it comes to sex, are you the one who's pursuing or are you the one withdrawing? Like, are you initiating or do you shut down? And the other thing too is it's not just what happens inside of you, because the research also shows that when there is someone who uses avoidance and withdrawal, the other person still also feels a sense of low power. Right.

So there's a vacuum.

100%.

Yeah.

That it's just this like spiral inside of you.

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Intimacy then in a relationship is more about leaning in and trusting. And I mentioned that already. It's the trusting of our relationship. And that is also where you can start breaking patterns. So if I make this tangible, when Greg comes to me around dirt biking, I put in my brain, I know this is hard for Greg. And so I'm going to try to meet him in knowing that it's hard for him and keep telling him, I'm here for us to do this together. Doesn't always come out that way though, does it?

Why are you laughing? Because it's hard. It's, it's okay. You don't have to like it. I think what you're saying is like—

I'm laughing because this happened recently.

Yeah, I know.

And I had said to you, it's, it's like you don't trust our relationship or you don't trust me.

But that's not true. But I think what I'm saying is it's okay for you to like not like this.

In what sense? Like I don't have to like that you want to go biking?

No, but that you have to like do the work to hold my avoidance in mind.

Say more.

Well, like what you're just saying is like, you're, you're kind of like holding in mind that it's hard for me. That probably gets tiring.

It does.

Right? So that's why I'm kind of like chuckling. Yeah, yeah.

My own resentment.

Because I understand that.

Yeah.

Yet I still fucking do it. But here we go.

Okay.

But then I'm going to challenge you a little bit though, because when I said, it feels to me like you don't trust me in my relationship, you're like, well, that's not true. And I want to say to you, then show me by actions. And I speak by that because I know A lot of people will say, so what? I have— okay, Dr. Tracy, so now I just have to be—

yeah, yeah, that's, uh, you know, I gotta do all the work.

I have to—

come on, Dr. Tracy.

So I'm infantilizing, infantilizing, infantilizing my husband then? No, no, no, no, no, no.

It might feel like it.

We can hold both though. I can have compassion for who you are. And I think this comes back to the seasons of relationships. This is not the honeymoon stage. We're not in it anymore.

Are you saying I'm not getting the most positive interpretation?

No, I'm giving you that. But it's the, what do we want our relationship to be now? You know, our kids are growing up, they're taking more space from us, they go to the park on their own. And, you know, I'm sitting with you and what do I want that to be? And only I get to answer that. And so do I want to be mad at you because there's something that you're still working through? Or do I want to say, okay, I've got compassion for you. Oh, and hey, also, This is still something that you need to be working on. This, this actually reminds me of this really cool story that happened recently in my Be Connected coaching call.

Okay.

I didn't get a chance to tell you this. So one of our members, she attends— so Be Connected is my online relationship program. It has a library of lessons for you. It has once a month coaching calls, a community, and Ask Dr. Tracy. And one of my members who comes in regularly for the coaching calls, that's where people are making the changes. She was sharing A win she had, and she said they got into a disagreement about something. Her husband said, "Forget it." Oh, that's the entry into their cycle.

And so he shut down.

He was shutting down, and she said, "No, this is important." Oh, so she broke the cycle right there.

And how did he react?

He had said something like, "Okay, yes, like we'll have to work through this," and then he went and did some. Self-exploration. He actually listened to some of our repair podcasts that were really helpful, and then they were able to come back to the conversation. But because she said, I'm not gonna— I'm not gonna get angry and pursue you like I would in the past, I'm just gonna stay calm and firm and say no, because then we never resolve it, and I want this to break. I want us to do something different. And that changed it, which was so cool. So I was thinking about that because really this is about Every single moment, how am I going to approach this pattern differently? And in our relationships, for people who've been listening here for a while, you know I talk about differentiation. And differentiation, in essence, what it means is I can say something that is true for me without having to control what you feel.

That's like the essence of what we're talking about.

And I often think about it as So I love images or metaphors. So it's almost like you get pulled down into quicksand the moment you worry about the other person's reactions. And how do we get out of quicksand? Well, we stop moving, we stop resisting, and then you float out of quicksand. So then you stop resisting that others are going to have reactions, and you say the thing you need to say without losing yourself. And it doesn't mean— doesn't mean you're bad. It doesn't mean your relationship is going to break, but you have to start somewhere.

Yeah.

What do you wish you had learned earlier? We're 14 years married this year, almost. What day is it? Almost 20 years since I met you in the bar that one night here in Ottawa.

Don't tell our secrets.

That one's in the book.

Oh, um, I mean, part of it, I think, if I'm being really honest, is a bit of self-confidence, just to not take on your feelings in the sense of like that differentiation piece and just Being okay, particularly like, if you don't agree or don't like what I'm sharing. And therefore, I would just do it more in real time and not delay and obfuscate and like, wait, try and find that perfect time for all the things. I really just wish I just shared stuff more in real time and was comfortable with your reaction, whatever it would be. And I think now, as I'm older, I mean, it's so broad, right? Like, I'm not just talking about doing activities now, but like, I think when you share with your partner in real time, you're more apt to get better responses. On the flip side of that though, if I didn't get a good reaction, like, that's also now an entry point to connection, having a better conversation, working through it, being curious. Because like, when you avoid and then just wait for that perfect time, it blows up. You're actually— the repair is probably maybe even harder. you then feel shittier about yourself, more resentful. You don't get the outcome you desire. It's just lose, lose, lose all around. Hopefully that answers your question.

I wrote down you had said comfortable with your reaction. And I think something that people miss is they wait to feel something before actually doing it. When you have to flip it, do the thing and you will gain more confidence and comfort in doing it. And so oftentimes when we talk about avoidance with therapy clients, I'll say things like, do the opposite.

Yeah. You've said that before.

Yeah. And, and what ends up happening, most people will say, oh, I felt so much better after. Oh, it went the way that I didn't think it was going to go. It went better than I thought it did.

Totally.

Yes. Because our brains are designed to play out the worst case scenarios.

Totally.

And if you are someone who spirals in this, actually take yourself to the very worst scenario. What's the very worst that's going to happen when you express that something's not working for you or you'd like to work on something or that your mother is coming into town, whatever it is, go to the worst-case scenario. Is your partner really going to leave you because you've shared this? Likely not.

No.

Likely not. There's a whole host of other things that are happening. So worst thing's not going to happen. So now can you deal with whatever else shows up? Yes, you can.

Yeah.

You can.

All right.

Thank you for hanging out with me on this conversation.

You're welcome. I'm an expert in this area.

I know. And I always appreciate you bringing your voice to this conversation. It is, I think, a very real experience for people, not just for Greg. I think for any of us, we avoid hard things, and we then use strategies to help us feel more certain and comfortable, but it is about acknowledging what is working and what isn't and what's relational and what's not. So thank you for hanging out with us today.

Yeah, no problem. I was just thinking as you're wrapping up, we also have these dopamine tools in our back pockets that just allow us to hijack and avoid and compartmentalize on demand.

Put your phones away.

Don't want to be hypocritical or unrealistic, but it, it just doesn't help. You can just escape so easily.

And if it's not our phones, we can find all kinds of strategies. We can say, oh, I'm really into my book right Now, I've used my book as a way to avoid having to talk about things.

Sure.

Right? I, I love to read. Or we're really into that TV, let's just have that TV conversation. There are things that feel easier over time, but I think it's the long-term outcome. What is it that you want to have? And there are small things that you can do. So it doesn't have to be— I mean, you already, Greg, you suggested to just try to practice saying it in the moment. That can be one thing. Or you write down things in your notes section, and then you both agree to that weekly meeting.

Yeah.

And you don't just have a meeting saying, here's the 3 things you did wrong this week. It's the meeting about connection, appreciation, and being able to express it.

You also had a suggestion the other day too around like you come up with an agreement that if you're struggling to bring something up, that maybe it's okay to send a text.

Yes.

Like it sounds kind of weird, like, oh, you should just be able to talk to your partner, but maybe, maybe as an entry point, that's like something to try.

I have a lot of clients who ask me this. Is it okay if I text this? And the question is, can you say it without texting? And if you can't, then maybe you need to send it by text and then make sure that you are closing the loop and resolving it in some way, either through text that you can both understand or by coming back to person. Because here's the reality. Sure. Do we want to work so that you and I can do it face to face?

Of course.

Yes. But to not have it at all. Yeah. So yeah, I don't think that's a bad thing.

And it's not forever, right? Maybe, maybe this is how you get back on track, you know, in air quotes.

A starting point.

Yeah.

It's always a starting point. All right. Thanks for clicking play. We'll see you next week. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental healthcare provider. Take good care of you.

This podcast episode is sponsored by Quince. Now that the nights are getting cooler, there's nothing better than getting into a really comfortable bed at the end of the day. Quince has become one of my go-tos for bedding because the quality is just so good. It lasts, and I love the color selection. And Greg and I have completely different sleep needs, so in order for us to sleep in the same bed, I use Quince bamboo sheet sets to help keep me cool. What I love about Quince is they make beautiful hotel-quality bedding in natural materials, from soft European linen to breathable organic cotton. Plus, they have quilts, coverlets, and duvet inserts for those extra cozy layers, and everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middle person. So you're paying for the quality, not the traditional brand markup. And it's not just bedding. Quince brings that same thoughtful approach to everything they make, from apparel and home essentials to cookware and furniture. We've gotten a few of our favorite clothing pieces from Quince as well. I love Quince bedding, and I know you will too. Make your bed your favorite place this season with Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com/tracy. Get free shipping on your order, and their 365-day return makes it so easy to change your mind. Now available in Canada and the UK. That's quince.com/tracy.

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1800 Contacts. Have you heard that McDonald's spicy chicken McNuggets made with spicy tempura and a blend of aged cayenne are back? Remember to grab a few extra napkins. Ba da ba ba ba.

For a limited time at participating McDonald's.

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