When One Partner Wants More Emotional Connection

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go-to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries, in-laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, This is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good. We're answering a listener question. Question today, and I'm so excited that you're sitting with me to do it together.

Why me?

Because you get to bring in the non-clinical side. You're, you're the more avoidant one.

You're—

whoa, whoa, whoa.

I thought we were talking about not dropping labels in this episode.

Come on. We're not dropping labels, but you know what? I can speak to the listener for 30 minutes as if I'm giving a clinical presentation or a lecture, but I think when you Sit with me. You just bring a voice that I know so many people love to hear. And also, the question is from Michael, one of our male listeners.

Yeah, that was really cool to see.

I loved seeing this. So first, Michael, thank you so much for listening to the podcast, for sharing it with others, and for being a longtime listener. Do you want me to jump in?

Yeah, I was just gonna say, and for taking the risk to—

Yes.

Put it out there.

Yes, I think that is so important, and it is something that I love doing here on the podcast. I love answering your questions. You and I a conversation in the car the other day about what it is like being a podcaster. And you sit across from me most weeks where I say to people, hey, leave a review. And then I had asked you, have you ever left a review for a podcast?

Yeah. What I was saying is I'm a pretty avid podcast listener, but I've never left a review, which maybe is unfair to the folks that I like to support. But I think it just speaks to kind of human nature. Podcasting tends to be kind of a one-way dialogue. There's obviously literally millions of podcasts. I'm sure some have amazing communities. Just the point was, I'm sure if you're even, maybe not the top, top pods, but you know, there's a lot of people doing a lot of great work where they don't necessarily get a lot of feedback, right? You know, reviews are one mechanism, DMs, that kind of thing.

But— The analogy you'd given is it's like golf. Like the golf is a self-starting sport. Is that the right way to say it? Versus the sport in motion.

Yeah, so it was like, uh, the analogy I was giving was golf is one of the few sports in the world where you start statically and you have to initiate motion. You have to initiate the activity where virtually every other sport, main sport, is reactionary. So your intuition, your athleticism gets to take over. And I was kind of likening kind of the podcasting to golf where it's, you kind of have to initiate. So because I don't hear from people, I don't want to start it as poor me, right?

No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not it at all. It's just really interesting. I love getting the questions because it lets me know people are out there and they're listening. And because I often don't get feedback, I don't know what lands.

Okay, totally.

Let's go into it.

So that's about us.

Michael shares that he's a husband, and he's in a 13-year relationship with his wife. So he says, we have been married for 6 and together for 13 years. I'm certainly more anxiously attached in our relationship based on my own personal work and listening to your podcast. I do believe she is more of the avoidantly attached partner. I would say that our relationship is really good right now. And we have been very open and communicative, especially me with my needs and my feelings when they arise. I'm traditionally a people pleaser, but over the last year have done a lot of personal work to try and alleviate some of my people pleasing tendencies. Part of our conflict cycle revolves around her unwillingness to share her feelings, name her needs, and move forward. Recently, when I asked her how she felt and what she needed, she responded with, I am not a feeling person. You know this. I don't know why you keep bringing up about my feelings. I felt hurt by this answer, probably because I'm taking it personally, knowing it's not meant to be a personal attack. I did explain to her that it hurt me a little bit that she could not be vulnerable and open up about how she feels. And again, she responded with the notion that she has never been a feelings person and she doesn't understand why all of a sudden I am so interested in talking about feelings.

There's a bit of an asymmetry there.

What do you mean?

Well, I don't know. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but—

Share what you mean already.

Well, you're halfway through the question and I'm like, oh, this dude's doing a lot of work and maybe finding some new language. We talk about therapy speak a lot. And then his partner's not. So there's an asymmetry there, which I think inherently might cause some friction.

Absolutely. That's something you and I can relate to. I mean, especially when I think about going along in my PhD, here I am suddenly learning needs, feelings.

Yeah, it's very challenging. I mean, you do this for a living, so I can kind of separate that, but honestly, I could almost imagine it worse if someone just finds this new language, this new like ethos seemingly out of the blue. They're on this, their own journey, and then their partner's not. Like for you, I could, it was like part of your schooling and your work. It was, it was almost more obvious.

Correct. It was also part of the timing of when you and I met in a sense that I had just entered the PhD program and was learning throughout. But you're right. And I do hear that from people. Some partners feel defensive right right away because it's like, why are you using this therapy speak? Or is that what you learned in therapy? And because naturally, if you don't have that awareness or you're not doing the work at the same time, you then go into this kind of, are they coming at me?

Well, he's already labeled his partner as avoidant, so she's already like, I'm out on this shit. I don't know, I'm jumping to conclusions, but— Right.

And, and even before I go more into the question, I think that is where we want to be careful in our relationships, that the awareness is helpful, but it doesn't necessarily translate into what you're doing in your relationship. So I do remind people, try not to label your partner unless they have used that term themselves to understand who they are. Otherwise, the labels then naturally put their defensiveness up. And as your partner had said, Michael, when she says, I'm not a feelings person, you know that. Yeah, that, that to me tells me a bit of her inner feelings of like, are you coming at me? She's perceiving an attack, even if you're not attacking her.

Where's this coming from?

Right. Okay. So moving forward as a secondary and somewhat related issue, we do have different intimate desire tendencies. And as you and others have suggested, based on the literature, I am the higher desire partner and she represents a responsive desire type for intimacy. And also too, just to normalize and contextualize this, many of the people I work with who come into therapy have different desire entry points, different desire levels, whether they can label it or not.

I'm sure.

Absolutely. Michael continues. He says, we do have moments throughout the day that we keep as a ritual for connection. For an example, we take a shower together at the end of every day so that we can recap the day's events and how it affected us. I really cherish moments like this, as it seems as though for brief periods her walls come down. Can we just pause for a moment and acknowledge that they have a daily ritual of connection?

Yeah, very strong.

That's really powerful. And then he goes on to say, however, when I attempt to bring up conversations regarding our intimacy, she gets very defensive, and I don't really feel that she has ever explicitly told me why she does not feel like being consistently intimate. It's confusing for me because when we are away on vacations or even just out of town for work, she's able to relax enough to become more consistent with not only being initiated but initiating intimacy. So she's also entering into both ways, be like the reception of initiation but then also initiating. However, when we return home, we fall back into a cycle of infrequent intimacy, sometimes 4 to 6 weeks without sex, not only penetrative sex, but also sex in general. I have talked to her about doing some of the online couples work that you provide and listening to podcasts. However, she again becomes very defensive and tells me that she doesn't want to listen to podcasts and she doesn't think that we need to work on our relationship because as she sees it, it is fine from her end. I don't know how to bring up this topic about intimacy or about her being able to be more vulnerable with her feelings without her becoming defensive. I feel like I am doing the work that I've needed for a while personally. However, I'm concerned and confused as to why she won't entertain the idea of even listening to podcasts. I know this question sort of touches on two different topics, but the defensiveness piece and the unwillingness to vocalize feelings and needs in our relationship seems to be an overriding theme. I'm 41 and she is 38. We don't have any children. I'm wondering if she's beginning to enter perimenopause. However, she has been on birth control and IUD, and so she doesn't not have regular periods or cycles to my knowledge. I have also floated your idea of weekly check-ins and have been met with defensiveness about how we don't need to do them because she doesn't feel like we need to do them. I feel like I would like to work on different relational skills as to prevent future catastrophes from occurring. I feel as though I am a bit alone only because seemingly more of my male friends follow traditional gender roles in heterosexual couples, whereas I do not. Any help would be so greatly appreciated as I feel like I can't really talk to anybody about these problems. I want to start, Greg, in that position of loneliness. That I hear coming from Michael in this experience. Right there he says, I think I'm a bit alone in this. Yeah, you know, I think that is such a hard position because I know so many people walk around with this experience feeling like they're the only ones.

I mean, you brought me on freeze. I'm just gonna label it like, as the 40-year-old dude, I'm sure that's like— he's obviously doing a lot of work. I would probably hazard a guess that not a lot of his friends are in the same boat or having the same thoughts Conversations. Maybe I'm wrong. People are way more evolved on this stuff than maybe I give them credit for, but I can imagine that's part of it.

They might not be having these conversations, which I think is part of the problem for many men, right? That doesn't mean they don't have this experience because there are many men who show up in my therapy room who do identify as the more anxiously attached one who are seeking connection, vulnerability, who are wanting more intimacy and confused when they're met in this position.

Yeah, it's interesting. There's a bit of a role reversal against the heterodox there, right?

For sure. For what is typically shared.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so I really wanted to normalize that and to emphasize for Michael to hear and for other listeners that, you know, unfortunately we do hear that stereotypical role, but that's not often what's seen in our clinical experience. There is the other position. I think something that stood out for me in this conversation is also I think sometimes when we hear words, we then categorize who that person is, or we then finish the belief. So when we hear your partner saying, I'm not a feelings person, or I'm—

She's avoidant. He's just put her in a box.

Absolutely.

I don't know.

Right.

But then it shuts down curiosity and trying to understand our partner. It would be one thing if Michael had shared that she's not doing a daily connection ritual with him. I would then want to know, what are you doing to connect? Or even the vacation sex piece that she is initiating and open to being initiated. I think those are really important cues that tell us something.

So why don't I just stop you right there? So what are some of the things that he could do starting there to kind of figure out what's happening?

I think the first thing in that is to not view it as she's not willing to be vulnerable with him. She's not willing to connect with him. But I think there Is a difference there in how it's going to look. It's not going to look how he's doing it.

That's right.

And I think about in relationships, it's like you both grew up in different sandboxes and now you're trying to co-create a sandbox. It doesn't mean she's going to do it how he does it. And it doesn't mean that he has to do it how she does it. But now it's like, well, what does this actually look like? How do we actually do it together? And I think sometimes what we do, Greg, is when we build these beliefs, Then we start scanning for it. And we stop seeing how the other person does show up. So for example, he has said she's not a feelings person. So now he's going to scan for every time she doesn't share feelings. But then what ends up happening is you miss the times that she shows you how she is connecting with you.

It just might not look like how you do it.

Right. And I do think this is one of the challenges around the social media shares that we see so much of. And I had one recently where I had a viral reel show up on my Feed of this couple who does a once a month check-in. They go to a hotel. They they do this whole you know PowerPoint presentation, and that works for some people, but it doesn't work for everybody. And so if Michael is saying that's something I desire, and she's saying I don't desire that, okay, then what does this actually look like? And then how do we build on so that shower connection piece that to me tells me she can connect with you. When she's not being put on the spot across the table of tell me your feelings. Instead, there's this entry point for her of just being in the moment.

Okay, so because it sounds like what you're saying is maybe he needs to find some different entry points, like softer startups. Like what would that what would that be like for him?

Yeah, I often envision more of the side by sides, the the having a game, the going for a walk together. I remember this one couple, and and I'll just. label this right here is I think sometimes the question we get stuck in is, why don't you want to have sex with me? Why do we go 4 to 6 weeks not having sex? And I think instead what is more important to ask is, how does my partner experience the entry into pleasure? So I love Emily Nagoski's work around this. So she talks about spontaneous and responsive desire as one element, but she also talks about our ons and offs. So those are our inhibitors and accelerators. So what makes us go, what makes us stop. And then what I love about her Come Together book is then she talks about the room, the entryway into desire, and that can be different for everybody. So instead of focusing on what our desire levels are, we then want to start focusing on the context that makes pleasure accessible. When a couple tells me that they're having vacation sex, That's important data for me.

Right.

And then I get curious about, well, what is the context about vacation that allows that to open up? So what's different?

Yeah, we don't, like, we don't know what their occupations are or—

No, I don't have that data.

Family systems around them. Like, there could be something super heavy that's totally blocking her.

Right. Well, but I think this can happen for anybody. So it could be, let's think about what changes on your vacation. Sleep changes. Your level of responsibility changes. You have fewer environmental cues. Your laundry basket is not sitting in the room. You maybe have different expectations. There's different pressures. You have maybe novelty. Think about novelty. Maybe that's an element in here, or an opportunity to relax or to play, or there's more non-sexual touch that happens throughout the day.

Naturally.

Naturally. And when we think about the desire cycle for women, one of the elements that leads to a yes or no— so this is Rosemary Basson's work— is that it's the aspects of physical connection, emotional connection, and also the mental and emotional labor that someone is doing for women. I should just say that more clearly. Don't dance around it, Tracy. It's the emotional and mental labor. That a woman holds. So I wonder at home what responsibilities she's carrying. He's told us they don't have children. And yes, perimenopause, we want to factor that in. It's possible, but we don't want to label that and say that that's the only thing that's happening here.

Yeah. I mean, he provided a lot of information that almost like, I'm not sure how helpful that is. I don't know.

Oh, it's, I mean, hey, for people sending questions, the more information, the more helpful. I just don't want us to label anybody and put them in a box and say the reason she has low desire is because she's perimenopausal, she has an IUD, because, because, because, because.

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Now let's shift the question from why don't you want sex with me to then shifting it to what is the room that you need to go into for desire? Here's an example. Maybe those rooms look like— and again, this is what Emily Nagoski talks about. The first room is relaxation, and then it leads to affection, and then it leads to play, and then you're kissing, and then desire shows up. So what room do you need to go into before you enter pleasure, before you enter desire and say yes?

Maybe she needs the relaxation room.

Maybe in this case, or like vacation sex, maybe she needs the novelty room. Maybe she needs a room where something is different and exciting and lights her up inside in a different way. Maybe that says, you know, something like a card game. Or maybe it's going on a hike in a different location or trying new food. Something about that novelty.

Right.

I think about this one couple who shared that they would go for a walk together. And the walk was, they would hold hands, they would talk. And I love the side-by-sideness. I know that's not a word, but the side-by-side aspect of couples together, because it really is shoulder to shoulder. We're looking forward, we're experiencing the environment. Holding hands, touching, and it's it's like free association. What's in your brain? Let out the brain dump. It's not him sitting across from her saying, "Okay, tell me all your stresses," and we'll make a list and get rid of them, and then we can go play. No, it's being; it's experiencing. And then that's when her desire switch would turn on. That's when she was ready for pleasure play and to enter into that room. So I'm often hearing some kind of version like this: I don't know what to say next. Maybe you've had a fight. Maybe you're two days into not really speaking. And there's no one to ask in that moment, or maybe you're struggling with intimacy and desire like this story here from Michael. Couples therapy sometimes isn't happening, or it's not for another few weeks. Maybe your partner is not on board to doing this work with you, or maybe it's the cost or just having to wait. And that's really why Be Connected exists. It's my online program for people doing this work, sometimes alongside their partner, often on their own first. There's live calls, there's the courses, and a group of people who get it.

We've also built.

Ask Dr. Tracy inside it trained on my clinical work. So when it's 11 PM and you're replaying the conversation and you're feeling triggered, you can actually ask what to do next. Find out more at support.drtracyd.com. All right, for Michael, something that I want him to specifically focus on here is to look for the other ways that your partner connects. This is something that you can do today, and it's like sending your brain this message: here she is in front of me. She's connecting with me. Because already he's mentioned it hurt his feelings when she had shared with him, hey, this is who I am. I'm not a feelings person. Depersonalize that. It's not about you for how she responds. So I think right away, start finding the moments that she is showing you, I am here, I am letting you into who I am.

They're probably more subtle than he does it that way.

Absolutely.

And this is where you and I— I think I can relate to Michael's experience because I often go to you and And I'll always remember the first time I said, how is your heart and mind today? And you replied, good.

Yeah, it's good. Question answer.

And I sat there a little bit longer and I had said, okay. And I think I probably said, do you want to ask me? Right? So it's just, it's you and I share and connect in a different way. But then when you come to me and you say, the grass is really green this year. That for me is your window.

Yeah.

Or the funny, the funny reel we posted on Instagram about golf, how you gave me that one tip and then like you talked to the entire golf course, Greg. You, you say a few sentences to me in our day-to-day and then we're on the golf course and you're telling me story after story and tip after tip. And it's just, that's the way you connect.

Right.

We were, we were, we were out being, and that opened it up for you.

Right. Because that's my style. That works for me. That's who I am.

But when I'm sitting across from you like this and I say, how's your heart and mind? You say, it's good.

It's in there. It's beating and it's open.

Also too, I want to reflect this piece because again, and I don't mean to rag on this, but I do find that this is the piece that social media misses. There are so many people who say if they're not sharing their feelings and needs, that's a red flag and you've got to go. No. It's not.

It's kind of this— it's, it's a bit in his question too. Like, I'm so grateful he sent it in, but it's this underlying— like, there's a lot of labels, there's a lot of terminology, a lot of therapy speak. We've talked about this before too.

Yeah.

And we don't want to be hypocrites.

And it can be super helpful for people to try to— like, like, it's the use it as an understanding, but don't use it as a label to box somebody in. Right.

And so like anything, you can just go too far.

Sure.

Like the pendulum just swings too far sometimes.

But when I think about someone who is avoidant, it's not that they have learned to never have feelings. They have a whole host of feelings. So this is, this is my favorite lesson in Be Connected is the attachment styles, because I give you the cycle exactly of what it looks like for someone who is secure, someone who is anxious, and someone who is avoidant. And the avoidant loop is I have a big rush of feelings and I immediately do something to deactivate that.

Like you shut it down.

You shut it down because they learned early on that it's not safe to show the emotion. They had a caregiver who was harsh, critical, punitive. So when someone then who is leaning more towards avoidance, that experience might not come out right away. But what Michael can do though is notice the other moments and also be open to when they show up. And, and also to reminding her in a way, I'm here if you need to talk about this.

It's a privilege to be able to connect with you, right?

Very much so. I think what I'm hearing him say though is like he feels like he's doing all this work and it probably to him doesn't feel like it's being reciprocated.

Which can be very frustrating. And also—

So what does he do with that? Help him work through that.

This is often a question I ask my clients. I say, are we having a change conversation or are we having an acceptance conversation? And acceptance involves an element of grief and acknowledging that this person in front of you is not who you now at this point desire to be. And you chose them for a reason.

Yeah.

I often think about that. So I think that our partners are mirrors and are reflecting something back to us. So can this be maybe a reflection back that just because she's not— and this is just one hypothesis, but this idea that But because she's not reflecting back to you what you are needing, you then have to sit in knowing that the way you are is absolutely okay. And just because she doesn't give you the same back doesn't mean you're less than. It doesn't mean you're too emotional or too needy. It just means that's who you are. And so oftentimes in the acceptance conversation, we're not only accepting them and who they are, we're also accepting us and who we are.

Yeah, I knew you were gonna say that.

Ooh, I love that. Thank you. And then it's grief.

That's, that's a little bit of grief work, which means let yourself feel sad.

Let yourself get angry sometimes, not at her, but just, you know, frustrated, like, oh, I'm looking for that connection. And then also moving to acceptance and meaning-making. And maybe part of it is where are you connecting with others? I'm thinking about the male connection.

Yeah.

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Actually, The Four Seasons. We just finished watching season 2, and there's this moment where— what's Jack's wife's name again? Was Tina Fey his character?

I forget.

So Four Seasons is hilarious. I love the show because it shows—

He drove me fucking crazy though.

I know, but that's what makes it a good show. You get annoyed at them, right? And is it Liz?

Really love that show, eh?

I love it because there are very few shows that demonstrate what real midlife looks like.

True.

And so anyways, so Tina Fey's character and her best friend, they're sitting there laughing at Jack making his new friend.

Oh yeah, yeah.

And they're on the beach and they're like, oh, they're probably talking about the football score. And then it goes to Jack sitting on the beach and they're talking about their childhood traumas.

Yes. Yeah.

And right, so a lot of people walk around the world thinking men are just talking about golf and sports. No, actually, I do believe there are a lot of men out there who do want to have this kind of conversation, but we have to be willing to enter into it. And who do we do that with in our life? And I think that's really important. And then I think also too, for Michael, is if we can shift out of the, why doesn't she want to have sex, but instead getting really curious about what's that entry point into pleasure? What room does she need to live in? And is there a door that enters into pleasure? So it's not this kind of insisting on more frequent sex or insisting on listening to the podcast and doing this work. You can do that for yourself.

Yeah.

But then maybe you're out for the walk and maybe my 100 questions or a card deck of some sort, you then ask a question while you're on the walk, but it's not this formal, let's have a weekly check-in.

It's got to be a softer entry. Like, oh, here's this 40-minute podcast on anxious attachment. No, you're going to lose me.

So then I think when I had reread the question, I missed it the first time. I had seen the connection piece, but then using that shower time, not as a tell me your feelings, but maybe that's where you bring in a question or you're out for dinner on a date. And then you say, hey, I've got this really fun question. If you could have any 3 people sitting with you around the table, who would they be and why? That was— I remember one of the questions we had asked each other on a date night. So it's not so formalized as in we need to have a weekly check-in. Yeah, but yeah, find the moments where you can agree on that this is our connection time and then really prioritize that.

I mean, I don't love the labels, obviously, but if you're, if you're knowing your partner's on the air quotes avoidance side, going to her with like these structured weekly things, like, isn't that self-defeating a little bit?

Well, it feels like an attack though, because she— well, because here's the thing, people who have a smaller emotional range, so someone like Michael or myself, I have a bigger emotional range. I feel things more deeply. I label my feelings and needs easier. I have that, that range. Other people have a smaller range. And those people, And also people who are more avoidant are categorized and they're often hearing there is something wrong with you. Why don't you emote? Why don't you tell me what you need? Why can't you tell me your feelings? Constant messaging that there's something wrong with them. And yes, it's a skill that they can work on, but we have to make sure we as partners are not holding up that mirror and saying, look, there's something wrong with you for being the way you are.

Mm-hmm.

I think this was a great question. And what I would really encourage Michael to do going forward is to invite some more curiosity. And that curiosity is into your partner, into the ways that you can connect together, but then also the curiosity and accepting and awareness within yourself of, oh, isn't that interesting? This is a moment where she says, I'm not a feelings person, and I take that personally. So what do I need to go and do with that in that moment?

Yeah.

I think what I hear too is like, awesome, you're doing all this work and continue to do that. It sounds really important to him and I totally respect that.

I love hearing about men doing this work. It's so important.

However, you can't then turn around and try and impose it on your partner. You need to find some subtler ways, as you just alluded to, right? Why, like, why aren't you listening to these podcasts? I'm not saying he's saying that, but like, is there a different way to, to bring up one of those topics? I don't know.

Absolutely.

So I have learned how to do this with you. So when we're in car rides, I'll say, hey, I listened to this really good episode. Do you want to listen to it together? And then sometimes you'll put on a podcast episode. You've played one for me that really stood out for me. I remember at one point. And so it's not me saying to you, we must connect and share deep feelings, but we're having a shared moment and we're doing something together. So I think that's a really important element within that. Well, any other last thoughts about this one?

No, I think that was it. It was the 2 truths, like awesome you're doing this. And I wonder if it maybe comes on a little strong. There's lots there.

I just want to reframe that. I wouldn't necessarily, as a clinician, say it's coming on as strong. I would say I would want to widen the strategies that we use and find more flexibility in there. So just to see it as a, well, that's one thing that I like to do. And then how can I also meet my person in their lived experience? So me, myself, this is what I look for, And then also, how can I be where they're coming from? And recognizing too, and I don't want to just kind of beat this point, but when she says, I'm not a feelings person, she's not saying, I don't want to connect with you. She's saying, can you see me for me? And if you could hold on to that, that just changes the whole conversation.

Yes.

Hey, thanks for hanging out with me. All right. Thanks for clicking play. I'm so glad that you joined us for another podcast episode here. And we'll see you next week.

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