Why Defensiveness Kills Intimacy

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go-to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries, in-laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, Settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good. Today I'm answering a listener question, and I love doing these episodes because they let us take the things you're navigating in your actual real-life moments and relationships and really work through them together. So if there's something you've been stuck on, a conversation you keep having, or a dynamic you want me to unpack, or a sticky moment with your in-laws as we are preparing for the fall season, send me your question. I love answering them here on the podcast. And before we get into today's question, if you've been listening for a while and finding these conversations helpful, I would be so grateful if you would take a quick beat to leave a review. It only takes a moment. It helps more people find the show and lets me know what is resonating with you right now. Okay, well, let's get into today's question. This question comes from Emily. She says, hi, I love your content and podcast. I listened to the episode, The Yes Starts Before the Bedroom. I'm going to link that one in the show notes because it's a good one. I need help sending the message home to my husband. He presents with defensive words when I bring concerns up. He can become reactive. Both of these things kill my desire. How am I supposed to tell him this delicately so he doesn't erupt? It's hard to always use I language without feeling like I'm pointing Fingers. I want to acknowledge something so important here, Emily, is that the first thing that I thought about when I read your question, and I don't have all of the details of your relationship, but what I first thought about is there's a very real truth in the values that you are both bringing into your relationship. And that is that you both want closeness. And I think that is so important because oftentimes when we're in conflict, when there's defensiveness and criticism, it can feel like we are on completely different pages. So I want you to remember, and So hold this in mind as you go through this conversation with your partner is that we both value closeness, but we're coming into it through different doors. And it's not that neither one of you don't care about the other person. It's that you haven't been able to figure out how to meet each other in this moment together. There's something very real that happens for people when they are hearing feedback, and especially when it comes to sex, a lot of people will hear, this doesn't matter to you. Or if we say something about initiation or desire or what you want and need, they automatically then hear, my needs aren't important. And that then triggers the defensiveness. And defensiveness makes sense because if someone is feeling like they are under attack, they want to protect themselves. And that's what defensiveness does. It armors us up and it keeps you out. And I think it's really important because sometimes when we give feedback to our partners, they don't hear the desire or the need or the wish underneath it. All they go immediately to is they hear rejection, they hear inadequacy, or they hear, I am completely failing as a husband. So I think it's important to first recognize that defensiveness is understandable, but I think there's also something really important in what you're saying. And I think everybody in relationships needs to hear this, is that defensiveness impacts desire. There was a reel I posted a while ago, and the opening line is defensiveness gives the ick. I mean, it really does, because it's not the big moment, it's not the big fight that you have, or it's not this grand gesture of a date night. It's the small, tiny paper cuts that add up over time. And if you're trying to heal all of these paper cuts on you, It's going to feel really hard to then enter into desire. So I think it's, it's important to remember that everything that happens throughout the day, your body is collecting that information. Our nervous systems are experiencing safety or not. And so if you wake up and you ask a question about the day ahead and they get defensive, your body clocks that. But if you wake up and you ask a question and they meet you with curiosity and warmth, Mm-hmm. Your body then says, oh, it's safe to connect with you. It's safe to be close. And desire doesn't live outside of that. And I think that is something that we really miss teaching people about sex is that desire doesn't really come in here as connected to the full circle. We think it's an on and off switch desire. And this is the Masters and Johnson model that this was the original desire arousal model, which is desire first. It's linear desire first arousal. Puzzle, next orgasm, and then the recovery period is afterwards. And there's actually been research by Rosemary Basson— she's a psychiatrist in British Columbia here in Canada— and she has found that women actually start from a sexually neutral position. And what contributes to the yes are things like physical closeness, emotional safety, emotional responsiveness. All of that is part of the desire piece.

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There's something else that I picked up in Emily's message here, and I think it's really important for us to recognize when we're dealing with a defensive partner. You cannot guarantee that your partner isn't going to be defensive with what you communicate. You can use the magical formula, you can read every book and have your therapist write you this script, and your partner is still going to respond the way that they will. And I think what's really important in there is that sometimes what we do is we hope we can find the perfect way to communicate something so that the other person doesn't have hard feelings. But that's not relational. A relationship is made up of, I'm sharing something hard with you and you get to have your reaction. And I'm gonna make space for that reaction, even though that's uncomfortable. And then you are going to make space for what I'm sharing with you. And that's uncomfortable. But it is, I think, an important piece to look at is If I'm entering into a conversation with you and I'm monitoring you and I'm being careful and I'm choosing my words, and sometimes as a result of that I might not even be communicating clearly, that in itself is more likely to contribute to disagreements, to struggling with how you're feeling in the relationship. So before we go into how you might frame this to your partner, I think it's really important for you to recognize that your job is to be respectful, it's to be clear, it's to actually bring this forward to them because it's important you. And your partner's job then, when we look at what makes up a healthy dynamic, your partner's job is to be able to stay present with you when he hears something uncomfortable. And that when you meet his defensiveness, right, so if that's the pattern, then you prepare yourself for what you want to respond next. Because then sometimes what often happens is You start the share, he gets defensive, and then you say, forget it, what's the point? So right there, that's you entering into your negative relationship cycle. And instead, it's you staying steady. It's you knowing that you're not criticizing them, that you are not hurting them or attacking them. You are expressing something important for you. And if it's important for you, it's important for the whole relationship. And so when you remain grounded in that, you can then continue forward by saying, I get that you're defensive about this.

Mm-hmm.

And this is important because we want the same thing. And I love being able to come back to that piece in a relationship. Because at the end of the day, what is really important in all of this is it's not you versus me. It's not your needs matter and mine don't, or my needs come first and yours don't, or mine are more important than yours. It's a, how do we do this together? How do we both come together so we get what we want so we can have joy and playfulness and connection. I think this is so important right here. If your partner needs you to say every difficult thing so carefully that you never experience discomfort, you are actually going to stop telling the truth. Can we just let that land for a moment? That if I have to then tiptoe around you, how can I then share things? How can I show up honestly? And that's not to say that every thought that we have is something that we share in But when this is something that's important to both of us, it's then requiring you to meet me in that moment. And hey, relationships—it is about discomfort. It is about misunderstandings and conflict. And the image I'm using, so you can't see me, is we're close. So we're close together with my hands. My hands are touching. My fingertips are touching. And then conflict arises, and then we come apart. But what's really beautiful is when we misunderstand each other and we have conflict, there's a chance to come back together. And now my fingers are intertwining. There's a chance to be able. to then understand the needs of the other person better. But if we're busy tiptoeing around that, we will never get to uncover those things together. When we enter these conversations, what we also tend to start with is we start to say things that the other person is doing that is impacting us, and that then naturally puts the other person on defensiveness. So I would focus on the desire moving forward. What is it that we want more of? What is it that we can agree on or talk about in terms of the future, think about this. Do you want to spend every conversation relitigating the past? That's exhausting, and you don't move forward at all. And there are going to be hurt moments, and some moments are ones that you have to go back and repair. But it's really powerful when we can sit down together and say something like, this is for us. I want us to have a sex life that feels so good and so connected for both of us. And I want to understand what helps each of us get there. That right there is like when I hear that, when I hear the positive, that just like, whoo, okay, we're on the same team. That right there, same team, check. Okay, good. I can put my defensiveness, I can put my armors down. And then that's the moment of talking about what you want more of, what would help you, what shuts down desire. And so the art of communication in a way if you will, is, is being able to understand what actually works for people. And I, I remember something that Jefferson Fisher had said on the podcast here as well, which is there's nothing worse than entering a conversation and giving them the sandwich, right? Here are 10 things that I'm going to give you that's positive, and then here's that really hard thing, and then I'll give you some more positives. Yeah, I get that. Like, that does not feel good. I think then what we're doing in a romantic relationship is being able to talk about the direction you are going forward. Don't sugarcoat. You don't have to go into the, you know how much I love you. You know how— it's just this, I wanna have great sex. I want to have fun. I want us to play. That's not sugarcoating this. But then I want you to add in something next to this. And this is about how do we talk about getting more of what we want? I created a guide. It's a free guide for you, and this creation really came out of this common pain point that was showing up in my therapy room and also here with you in the community. So the free guide is 5 Ways to Nurture Your Intimacy. I've intentionally used those words because this is not a guide to then have more intercourse as the definition of a— for heterosexual couple, penis and vagina, one person ending in orgasm. This is about creating connection and broadening the scope of intimacy and understanding each other on a different level. Oh, I feel a tangent coming on here. Okay, this is a small tangent. I posted about desire recently. It was one of my dear partner posts, and I, I really like doing these perspectives, and it landed on the wrong side of space. And I, I really struggled with the comments because a lot of men came in And said that they felt completely dismissed in this one part of the conversation. And it also showed a really big gap here, a big gap of how people struggle to talk about needs and being able to see from both sides. Anyways, if you wanna go check that out, that was over on Instagram. And it was really just this conversation about redefining intimacy after having kids. It's not just checkbox, we're having intercourse. It's a, how are we doing? All of the things that bring play and desire. But a lot of men commented saying, way to wipe out a man's needs. And that's exactly not what we are doing here. So this is where then we start talking about how yes starts before the bedroom, right? This is the podcast episode before, but then you having these conversations with your partner, you being able to say to him, when have you felt most wanted by me? What kinds of initiations have worked well? What helps you move toward desire? What builds excitement? What shuts down desire? So this isn't a conversation necessarily of saying you're so defensive, it kills my desire. Instead, it's being able to say desire grows when you hear me. Desire grows when I feel like you want to sit and listen to my idea, even if I'm talking about this thing that you are not interested in. What shuts down desire is when I feel like you dismiss me or when I feel unseen. Those are helpful ways of having this conversation. So the piece here then is what are our conditions for desire? I really love Emily Nagoski's work here as well in Come Together. It's her 3rd book that came after Come As You Are, which is for women and understanding women's desire. Great book. But Come Together then talks about what is the room that you have to enter into in order to then get to the yes, in order to build desire. I think that's how she frames it. It's the room. And that for some people, for some couples, That room actually is a room of play, playfulness of, you know, do you have the Nerf guns in the home and you chase each other? Do you play hide and seek? Dr. McNichols on the podcast talked about wrestling with her husband. So all of these pieces that are the entryway into desire. Now we're no longer having a conversation about just his behavior and his defensiveness. We're starting to broaden the conversation. And then I always add this piece. I think it's so important for us to say to our partners, There are things that I need before I can enter desire. That is incredibly different from saying your sexual needs don't matter. We're talking about what we need, and I want to know also what you need and what helps you. Those things are incredibly important. Okay, there's one small piece that I want to make sure I address around this kind of conversation. This is a conversation that is outside of the bedroom. It is not in bed. It's not in the moment of initiation or sex. It is at the dining room table. I always say, don't have hard conversations in bed. Save them outside of the bedroom. bedrooms. The bed is for sleep and sex only.

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Okay. The last thing I wanna add here is how you can start to talk to your partner about the cycle that you both get into. That cycle is such a powerful way of framing things because it's no longer about you versus me. It's a, what do we do together in this conversation? So it sounds like this. When our conversations become reactive, I notice I pull away. And when I hear you get defensive, I feel myself shut down. And then it takes me longer to feel open and connect again, and that then affects how easily I can access my own desire. And what I love about that kind of conversation with your partner is that there's no blame. You're not saying your defensiveness kills my desire, but instead it is relational. That is about considering you and me and how we can then move forward together. And again, Emily, I want to emphasize that. We don't get to control our partner's defensiveness, but we can then allow it to land. Don't give 100 examples. Don't relitigate the past, but be able to say to your partner, this matters to me. And so let's play this out. I always love role-playing with my clients. I say, okay, what will your, what will your partner say? My partner will say, oh, so I guess I can't do anything right. And so you say, that's actually not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that this is really important to both of us and I want to prioritize it. And understand each other better. Can you sit with that and hear me there? Oh, you're using therapy speak again. I can't hear you when they do that. And again, I'm dramatizing it. You being able to say, no, my love, that's not what I'm doing. This is something important to me and I need you to hear me. It's okay if we break right here and we can come back at another time. Notice how I am not throwing in any other examples or any other situations. I am sticking so close to this. All right, I hope this was a helpful place to go, Emily. I'm grateful for your question. I'm grateful that you are part of this community learning alongside with us. And hey, if you have a question, I've got the link in the show notes for you. But if you would also like more one-to-one support and you'd rather work through this privately on your own time, I've got Dr. Tracy AI inside my relationship program, which is called Be Connected. It's trained on my relationship tools and teachings So that you can bring in the exact situation you're navigating and get support right when you need it. I created this tool because I recognized you can't always wait for the podcast episode. You can't wait for the therapy session or the coaching session, and you then want that immediate support right in the moment that you are triggered and struggling. And I have heard such great feedback from so many of my members inside Be Connected sharing just how helpful it has been through the various seasons, whether they're talking about desire and sex or defensiveness and their negative cycle, or even navigating those hard family moments. I've got the link for you to join that's in the show notes. I've always wanted to make an affordable way for you to get the help that you need. So go ahead and check that out. All right. Pausing here to express my gratitude that you gave me your time, that you have hung out with me, that you ask your questions, that you leave a review and you are part of this community. And I can't wait to see you. Next week on another episode of Dear Dr. Tracy. Okay, see you soon.

August always feels like the perfect time to reset your routine after a busy summer, and one of the easiest places to start is your bed. Quince makes beautifully crafted bedding that brings that calm, comfortable, hotel-like feeling into your own home without the typical luxury markup. I have used several Quince pieces in our home, and I genuinely recommend them to everyone. My daughter was ready to move on from pink bedding, so we chose one of Quince's quilt sets in this beautiful olive color. The quality is excellent, it's incredibly soft, and there were so many gorgeous colors to choose from. And on our bed, we have Quince's European linen bedding, which has been especially helpful for me as a hot sleeper. It feels breathable and has helped me to sleep cooler, which during perimenopause is absolutely key. It also gets softer with every wash and has that relaxed live-in look that I love. We've also added one of their lightweight quilts to our bed. It's held up beautifully and adds the perfect amount of texture and warmth without feeling heavy. Quince offers elevated essentials at 50 to 80% less than similar brands by working directly with ethical factories and cutting out the middlemen. Upgrade your everyday. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/tracy. You will get free shipping on your order and they have 365-day returns. It's also available in Canada and UK too. That's quince.com/tracy.

Hi, I'm Marissa Lanik, host of the Mama Work It podcast, the show for working moms juggling mom life, work life, Each week we talk real motherhood, real careers, and real strategies to help you thrive, not just survive, the season you're in. If you're managing meetings, meltdowns, and big goals, this podcast was made for you. Tune in wherever you catch your podcasts.

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