How to Talk to a Defensive Partner Without Starting a Fight

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Hmm. That's tough.

That one just landed really hard.

The last part?

Yes, because I know for so many people when they get stuck in these communication patterns, this one specifically, we're talking about defensiveness. It just really creates a gap between two people who ultimately want to feel close and connect in the relationship. So if you have a defensive partner, I think you are going to find this episode helpful, and I'm so glad that you're clicking play today. And I also want to emphasize that if you happen to be the person who is defensive, I have my defensiveness expert here with me, my husband Greg, but also to just to know that this episode is especially for you because you don't have to stay stuck in this pattern in your relationship.

Yeah, and I think probably most people listening to this probably aren't the defensive one if they're seeking this out. So send it to them.

Yeah, that's such a powerful thing. And to not be afraid of—

with curiosity, like, tell me more. Well, not to be like, you should listen to this because you're a defensive asshole, because that's just not going to land. But like, hey, this is something to think about.

Here's how I would send it, because I, I do think there—

tell us—

there's a way to do this. It—

that's what I was getting at.

It is you going to your partner and saying, I listened to this podcast episode and there are some few pieces that really landed for me, and I thought of us And I would love for you to listen to it. We can listen to it together.

Tell me what you think, like open the dialogue.

And I want to hear more about what you think about this, right? And that, Greg, what you had said right there is the curiosity right there. And even right there, that's going to lead us to the tip that we talk about today in terms of how you can change these conversations. You're already starting with a different way to have these conversations.

You're a much softer startup.

Absolutely. Defensiveness is so interesting because I almost describe it as insidious, and I don't know if that is a fair way to say it.

So sounds harsh, but I think I know where you're going.

It bleeds. It bleeds into just this way of being. And as I shared something about defensiveness on Threads, actually, recently, I had one commenter reply and say, I wish I had found this months ago. It would have saved my relationship. And I think what I had said was something along the lines of, when your partner shares something with you, it is not about you. So drop the defensiveness. Just very straightforward. Because when we're sharing, that's a connection piece, but the defensive partner goes into self-protection. And that's exactly what breaks connection.

Why did they do that?

That's a great question. So let's talk about the pattern that unfolds between partners. So one of the biggest pieces around defensiveness is that they experience it as an attack. Your partner is passing you something and it doesn't matter how it comes to you, it's an attack. And defensiveness is about self-protection. And I think a lot of people get stuck in blame in some way. And I know I have too in the past where I would say to you, you're just so defensive, just take accountability. I just want you to see what I'm saying.

Just, yeah.

Oh gosh, the just word is such a hard one in a relationship. And that comes from a place frustration of me not feeling seen, heard, and understood and bumping up against your wall. But really, when we can understand what, what's actually happening in the cycle and the pattern that we get stuck in, then we can start to change that. Let me just name that pattern here because I think it's such a common one. So one person experiences this cost of raising an issue, and it can feel like, well, what's the point? And I think sometimes when issues stop getting put in front of us, it can almost feel like Well, this is peaceful. We're good. We're not having fights anymore. Look, we haven't fought for a month. Is it peace or is it resignation? And oftentimes when it comes to dealing with a defensive partner, it can feel like resignation.

They just stop trying. They stop bringing it up because they're just hitting the wall, right?

That's exactly what this person was saying to me in that message to me. Like, I've just resigned because every time I do, I meet a wall. And the other reality, though, this is why this pattern I think is so important. When we carefully hold both perspectives. That's what I'm constantly doing in couples therapy, and I'm encouraging, and I hope that as you doing this work here, you are starting to learn both perspectives as well, is that for some people, they don't know they're being defensive.

No, no. Inherent in self-protection is not like an admission of guilt or knowing they're doing something wrong. They're literally trying to protect themselves, which is on the face of it something of virtue, I would think.

It's this idea that we all develop patterns growing up and what we think is normal, we continue to do.

Right.

What we experience, we continue to do. I love how Terry Real asks these 3 questions. Who did you see be defensive? Who was defensive with you? And who allowed you to be defensive growing up?

Hmm. More often your caregivers, I would imagine.

Absolutely. And so that defensiveness can be a pattern. Between parents while you're growing up.

Between the parents, like each of the parents?

In front of each other.

Right. Which you observe. Yeah.

So you observe that becomes your blueprint.

Okay.

So if you hear, I'll just use a heterosexual couple. If you hear mom going to dad saying, honey, did you grab the ketchup? And then he goes, you always expect me to do so much. That right there is your model in front of you. And I think, ah, I always get sidetracked. I'm so sorry. I think this is why this relational piece that we do is so important because we're literally mapping out the blueprints for our children. That's why doing the relational work matters. We don't want our children to keep seeing this. And that's also what I like say to men who are hesitant to come and do this work with me is, I know you don't want to keep repeating this for your children. Let's change that blueprint. So oftentimes then a person didn't know that this is what defensiveness is. They didn't know that that's what their family was doing, or they didn't know that their parent was being defensive to them, therefore modeling and showing them what that means.

Just how they grew up. It's just what they knew, right?

Right. And so a lot of times I think what ends up happening is, well, I know this for a fact. Every single person who lands in my therapy room says, I want to communicate better with my partner. On the surface, we're talking about communication issues, but underneath we're talking about a pattern of protection. And I think when we can start looking at our partners and intentionally, you know, Greg tends to be the more defensive one in our bond, in our connection.

No, it's true.

You know, when I can look at you as understanding that there's a pattern that you are repeating, it helps me to understand where you're coming from rather than getting into my righteousness.

The righteous indignation back, which sounds like— so does that help diffuse it?

Just change. Yeah, yeah, it does help diffuse it. It really does, because that pulls for me to have empathy. If I can see you as being a product of your pattern.

Yeah, yeah, because you're kind of depersonalizing it, because I think defensiveness is a very personal It's a personal affront to the person who's being, I'm using air quotes, attacked. And then it becomes personal back to the partner who's on the receiving end of defensiveness. Right.

And I think we need to call this as it is, is that every time you respond to your partner with a type of defensiveness, which could be a dismissing, a deflection, or a denial, every time you do that, you are breaking the connection between you two. You are saying my need to protect myself is more important than our bond and our connection.

I don't think that's a piece that a lot of people would inherently know. Like, it makes a lot of sense when you say it, but I, I can't imagine a lot of people who haven't been to therapy or, or don't— aren't privy to that one. Like, it's a really powerful statement, but so I think it's important to emphasize that.

If you were to have an experiment and you could almost be this fly on a wall. If you allow yourself to go to coffee shops, or you're on the train or the bus, or you're in a shop getting groceries, just listen to other people.

Oh shit, you'll hear it.

Yeah, you can start to hear it between people, how defensiveness shows up.

Sharp.

So it's sharp, it's fast, it's so—

I was just gonna say, so quick.

Yeah, it's so automatic. Can I share an example?

Uh, of me?

Of us?

Which one? Go ahead.

You— when I came to you and I had said What did I say? I think I had said like, I would've loved for you to cuddle me this morning. And you were like, I was in so much pain.

Yeah.

And I was like, yeah, dude. And in all fairness to you, you're doing shoulder physio and that would, you know, cuddling.

Like, it's like two things are true, but like it didn't elicit that, me and that kind of reaction. I think that's where you go.

But it was so quick. It was like, I didn't even finish the last word of my sentence and you're like, I'm in so much pain. It's like, yeah. I was like, oh honey, it's like a form of autopilot, eh? Yes, it absolutely is. So let's talk about why defensiveness is so hard. Why is it hard to break the pattern? Because I think what we need to recognize is that you in that moment go into one of these nervous system responses. So we think about what the nervous system does. We talk about fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. And fawn is, I'm going to go into people pleasing and caregiving and say yes to you when I really want to say no. And defensiveness is You have learned to fight to protect yourself. It's not flight. Sometimes people, what they do is they'll get defensive and then peace out.

Yeah.

And then they'll shut down. So fight and then flight.

Yeah, I can relate to that actually. Yeah, I say the thing and like, I'm gonna get it off my chest, but that's it.

I'm not staying to resolve this. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's your nervous system. And when I think about that part in our bodies, it very much is in our chest. It's adaptive, it's protective. And I think what so many of us think, and I know for myself too, if I go back 10, 20 years in relationships, I would just say, just take accountability, just stop being defensive. And when you're regulated and connected and online, when your brain is in that space, you can do that. But if you're not, it is incredibly hard to just take accountability.

Near impossible.

So this is interesting then, because what I'm inviting you as you're listening today is to come into this conversation with a whole a lot of curiosity and compassion. Because then when we get curious, we start to ask ourselves, what kind of environment did my partner— or myself, if I'm the one who's defensive listening— what kind of environment did I grow up in? What was done to me when I shared things?

Yeah, not even— maybe done to you is— it comes off a little extreme, but like, what did you observe? What were you exposed to?

Right, there is a silent thing that people are exposed to that also leads to a protection mode, and I think that is something that we have to name because a lot of people don't know how to name that. Sometimes it's a strategy where you learn to just create space and distance because of whatever's happening in front of you is uncomfortable. And so that in itself, if things are not named out loud, if nobody comes back Nobody comes back to repair with you. That's a big one. You know, I think about even our son when he runs off to his room having big feelings. And I imagine what would it be like to just leave him? Like, I can't. But yet so many of us grew up in that. And then Dr. Becky talks about this. You do one of two things if parents don't come and repair. One, you self-blame, or two, you doubt yourself that it even happened and it was even a thing. And both of those mechanisms in a way then hardens you. You don't trust your emotions. You don't feel seen and understood, and then you just learn to shut all that down. Focus Features and Blumhouse present Obsession. When I have a crush on a guy, no one knows. Be careful.

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Yeah.

Who is 9 years old. Trying to protect themselves.

Yeah, that deeply resonates. And man, what a powerful image if you can start to think of it that way. Like, how are you going to react differently?

There was a reaction from women to something that was shared online where a man said, I keep an image of my wife when she was 6 years old in my car. So I remember that that's her inner child and that's who she is. And people—

a negative reaction.

And people were like, what, you need to see the inner child of your wife to treat her nicely and kindly? And so I can almost hear— I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. If I'm completely wrong here, please send me a DM on Instagram and be like, hey Tracy, you got this one wrong.

Yeah.

But I think sometimes, especially the person who is on the receiving end of the defensive wall, I think sometimes it's exhausting to think of, oh, Dr. Tracy You're just telling me to view my partner as a 9-year-old and then everything is fine. Okay, I'll go pull up the picture of him. Ah, and that right there.

Yeah. You're not trying to, like, make excuses for it.

No, but I think what I'm trying to do here is I often come back to what Esther Perel has said, and it's what I have said to this community many times. I'll use her direct words. If you want to change your partner, change yourself.

I've said that a lot lately.

Have I?

Yeah. And people don't want to hear it, but it's true. And this is kind of it. This is kind of another example of it.

Yeah.

Like, yes, maybe your partner shouldn't have to have that picture. You can live in the should-haves or you can live in the reality. And maybe that's what they need. Like, I know for me, there was a time even with our own kiddo where I look at baby pictures of them as a help, and that's my own kid. So think about your partner. So I don't know, call it a crutch or you can call it a tool. You can sit in the what ought to be 'Yeah, Rich coming for me.' Or you can lean into this and let them do it, and maybe it gets better. I don't know, maybe— hey, maybe I'm fucking totally offside because I'm just a regular dude too, but like, it just doesn't sound that unreasonable to me. Like, in a way, when I hear that story, I'm like, 'Oh, that's interesting.' It's also proactive. He's doing something about it. He's just not sitting in his defensiveness and continuing to be a douche.

I think it's this beautiful reminder that we have all been kids at one point. Yeah, and we at one point had to learn some way to remain connected to caregivers that we didn't get to choose. And now today, in this relationship, you do get to choose who you're with and you do get to choose how you're going to respond moment to moment.

And we're back.

What do you wish your younger self, let's say the earlier years of our marriage, what do you wish you knew about defensiveness then that you know now?

I think a couple things, that it's okay to like just take a pause and name it. Like, hey, that's a little bit much, and just give me a beat. Like, not every request from you needs an instant reaction. I think just also understanding like it does break connection, and it's, it's more like, and we've said this before, it's the issue is like the cycle. So like shoulder to shoulder, the problems out in front of us. So in this case, it's defensiveness.

Yeah, I think that's a huge point, to put defensiveness in front of you rather than it's a you versus me. Yeah, because it then says we can co-create this and we can both be responsible for what the next step is. Yeah, because I know with a lot of couples that I work with, I'm holding both people at the same time Yes, he's defensive and he can respond this way. And yes, you too can respond this way, right? So I'm constantly trying to hold both of that. And that, that as a couples therapist, that can be hard when things escalated in the moment. But just even as a human, one person having my own internal reaction and then trying to monitor your own reaction is really difficult. But let's say, you know, this younger guy who's just lost his relationship— I made my step goals, guys, sorry about the noise. Imagine I'm flailing my arms. Imagine.

So you're faking it. Continue.

Did you just say all my steps are faked?

You just called yourself on it. Not me. Keep going.

So imagine this guy just lost his 2-year relationship and he's like, I didn't know I was defensive. How would you tell him what defensiveness feels like and what to look for?

It's that heat. It's that quick reaction. It's that feeling like of one-upmanship. That you have to be right, right? That you need the last word. And I think probably if I'm a younger dude, like, there's a bit of an ego there, right? Like, maybe earlier in your career, like, you're fighting all day at work, and then you come to your partner and she's short or whatever. It just happens. And I also think, like, particularly for young men, it's just like they're a bit behind with brain development, and like, it just takes time and experience. So It's tricky. But just to give yourself that time. And I think I'll get off the soapbox. But again, we spend all this time on our phones, we get all this instant reaction. Time is like a flat black hole in the earth. We just don't give it anymore.

Right. Well, if I'm numbed out on a device and then my partner comes in and is kind of giving me the cold shoulder, I'm going to say like, well, what's your problem? Because I'm numb and I'm not engaged with myself.

So I feel that when I'm on my phone, even when the kids say something, it's like faster and it's like sharper. So I imagine it's totally the same. I don't know about you, but—

Oh, you haven't labeled that yet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not as much anymore, but like if you're a bit tired and you're just like numbing out and that gets interrupted in some fashion cuz you have to talk to a human, God forbid.

I, I can't, I can't do all of it now. I have to keep my phone down or I have to like explicitly say to whoever and to you too, I'm just doing something on my phone right now and then I have to put it down.

Yeah, I know. But you're, you're a psychologist. You can do that. Like most of us can't.

So when you said it's that feeling like I have to be right, I think right here that this is often this position that we live in, in our relationships. So I think people do two things when defensiveness shows up. I have to be right or I concede and I'm just gonna be like, yeah, sure, it's fine, whatever.

Yeah, but then you lose yourself in that.

Absolutely, because that's the piece of the cycle. And I think people also need to hear that when I'm coming to you, I'm not coming to you because I want you to tell me I'm right. I'm coming to you because I want to connect with you.

Yeah.

And that's not the time for you to then come back with your 10 things, but instead it's for you to understand I'm coming for connection. So there's this piece here then where we have to understand that it's not about being right in a relationship. And as soon as you go into your righteousness that I have to be right, you have completely made the thing about yourself. And if we can just remember that from the front of our brains right here as you're listening, that might just change a little bit next time. Okay, so we've named the cycle. It's you and me against the defensiveness. Put the defensiveness in front of you. You're both going to try to approach this differently. That is such a game changer. I think we also have to label something in here around shame, and we did have a really good shame episode recently. We can put that in the show notes. That one landed really well for people. But one of the reasons why people get defensive is because underneath that, they believe that they are bad, inadequate, defective.

Or they've made a mistake.

It's not just that they've made a mistake, it's that they believe they are a mistake.

Whoa. Where does that come from? That seems— are a mistake? That seems harsh.

Well, this is what I said earlier, though, about if no one comes and repairs to you and talks to you, you self-blame or you self-doubt.

Oh, that's the Dr. Becky thing you're talking about.

Yes.

Okay.

But let's say you're playing hockey and you're 9 years old. You miss the puck, and in the car your dad says, "Bud, you missed it again, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." You go home and you go into your room and you say, "I'm such a fuck-up." Yeah. What?

Yeah. Shame.

But that's inherently where many people land, and especially those who are highly sensitive, vulnerability lives right beside shame. And I have a bit of a theory with a lot of the men that I work with, as I believe that many of them were highly sensitive as kids. They feel deeply, but because they grew up as men in the society that we have, they have learned to shove those feelings down so deeply.

Interesting.

That there is no vulnerability, because as the moment they show a weakness.

Shame.

Shame.

Yeah. What makes you think they're highly sensitive though? Like, that's a new age kind of term. Like, I know it's just a working thing.

It's a working theory. I mean, highly sensitive is not a diagnosis.

No, I know.

Yeah, there is some research around it by the Aron and Aron, I believe, both of them. And there's a good book, Highly Sensitive Child and Highly Sensitive Person. There's a quiz you can take online. But there's something around— and I, I don't know, I wish I knew the research better of this— but there's something around men Okay, actually, I can speak from a research perspective. When a couple is in a disagreement, so they go to the Gottman's couples lab, they're hooked up to all the monitors, and they're asked to have a disagreement to talk about something that's a space of conflict for them. Men's physiological response goes through the roof. Women's elevate a little bit, but not as high. So you sweat more, your heart rate goes up more, blood pressure. That's really interesting.

Yeah, that is interesting.

So your experience of conflict in that motion, why is that?

So that's their sensitivity, like their physiological, physiological sensitivity.

So I've, I've often thought, and because of the men I work with, there is a deeper experience of emotions in there, but you grew up learning not to feel them, not to name them. And so it's just this whole ball. And I remember one client many, many years ago would just stay in this frustrated, and I would ask, you know, as your partner is sharing this with you, what goes on for you? Frustrated.

I can relate to this, maybe even today.

And frustrated is the key emotion. Frustration is not the main emotion. There's a whole bunch of other stuff underneath.

Oh, I know, but it's the presenting one, isn't it?

Not often. And so then there's two things that happen. Is it that you can't differentiate the ball of emotion inside of you? Possibly.

Probably.

Is it that you don't even have the language to name it? Because again, think of the boy who was told that he missed the puck and didn't get the goal. He ran to his room. None of our parents repaired with us at the time. We self-blamed, we self-doubt. Nobody had the emotion labels back then. And what we know from research is emotion lasts for 90 seconds. I love that stat.

Tell me more. Is that short or a long time?

That is a very short amount of time. An emotion like anger, surprise, joy, happy, fear, 90 seconds.

That's it, eh?

But the way it ends up lasting longer is when we throw in all the stories and the thoughts, the narratives and the examples.

But isn't that part of the emotion?

No, the emotion is just that experience, but the thought story, all that leads through it. Okay. So then here's the thing. Then you don't know how to name and label that. And the moment you label the emotion as, oh, this is fear. Oh, this is sad. Oh, this is anger. Because anger at times is a primary emotion. The moment you label that, it's like throwing a life raft to you out to sea. Your nervous system actually goes, oh, right. Oh, actually, this is a great example. So one day with our daughter, I was laying in bed with her and I was like, hey girl, how was your day? Like, tell me the highs and lows kind of thing. And she was like, had a great day, mommy. And in my head, I'm like, you had a great day? You had a 30-minute meltdown over us not having celery. Do we talk? I think we talked about this example in the past. Podcast one day.

Maybe.

Anyways, but it was a moment where we named the emotion, we labeled it, we talked about— maybe it was Cheerios, I don't know. But anyway, doesn't matter, doesn't matter. But like, I remember we, we did the emotion labeling, we sat with the emotion, we validated it, we watched the rise and the fall of the feeling. It was intense. And I know parents listening are going to be like feeling it in their like chest of like, we know that intense a time when the emotion is like, how could you not have the right food in this exact moment? And then at bedtime when I was sitting with my little one and it wasn't even mentioned. Wild. It was wild because in my head I'm like, you don't remember that time?

So circle that though. So, well, so why did that happen?

Because you saw the emotion, you named it, it was validated. Someone else—

okay, because you went through all this process.

That's the key piece. Someone else sees the emotion. That helps you heal this stuff and move through it. So when your partner comes to you— and here, here, we'll come back to the defense of this theme today— when your partner comes to you and says I feel so lonely. I feel like we're roommates. I feel lost with you.

I'm doing my best.

You have not named what their experience is. You made it all about you. So guess what that says to the other person?

You don't matter.

I don't matter. This feeling isn't real. I have to now give you more examples.

Yeah, lawyer up to legitimize my feelings, right?

So that defensiveness. So then, okay, let's talk about what you could actually do to change this, because there's both parties in here. And the first part is, if you're the person approaching your defensive person—

speak from experience, go on.

So first, we've got the link in the show notes. I have 10 free scripts to help you respond to your defensive partner. I really like those ones. Those are, those are ones—

simple.

They're simple. You get to change the script into your words. You choose the one that lands for you. But download that guide so you have them, because that's how you're going to stop the cycle from taking over of the upping the ante, the pursue-withdraw cycle.

Yeah, but put your language to it.

Read it.

It's a sentence. Read it.

100%.

Use your lexicon, not what's there.

So I've actually been doing this with you.

I didn't know.

You knew. I come to you and I say, I'd like to share something with you, and it might be hard to hear.

Yeah, you have been.

And immediately right there, we both actually laugh. And you're like, okay, what am I bracing for? And that, I mean, that's even a connection moment. We can laugh, but you also know I am not coming at you. And so that 9-year-old boy inside of you can go, we're okay. It's Tracy. This is my partner. She's coming to connect with me. I don't have to protect you.

It just lowers the defense.

100%.

Hence the defensiveness.

Right, right. So that's how we can approach things. And I always ask, what is it that I can do differently in our cycle that will land us to be more connected? So I come to you and I name it, hey, this might be hard for you to hear, but I really need you to listen. Or I might say something like, I want to share something with you, but I don't want you to problem solve this one for me.

I like that one.

I just need you to listen.

Okay, here's the pushback though. Okay, once again, Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, you're asking me, the listener who's in the struggle, to do the work.

Everybody has to do the work. Yeah, people just show up before the other person. But if you—

but I'm not the defensive one.

If my partner is something different, there's an opportunity to elicit something back. Now here's the thing. If your partner then gets defensive again, don't then go, see, this is why I never tell you anything. Like, what's the point? It was just— you're so defensive. Walk away in a huff. I mean, that's just your cycle right there. But you stay the course. No, no, hang on, love. This is important, and I want us to have this conversation. And sometimes too, when you're really stuck in that cycle, it is really about you then having this conversation and saying— because I know this comes up for a lot of people in my community where they say, I've tried, I've tried to do these things— and then you're having a different conversation. That conversation then sounds like, listen, we are so far apart, and I'm asking you to come to the table because I don't want us to keep going this way, and I need you to participate in this conversation. Otherwise we're not going to be in a good spot, and I don't want to keep showing this to our kids. Okay, so that's for you. But if you're the person who is defensive—

yeah, that's what I was getting at, right?

Okay, so if you are the person who is defensive, don't worry, I've got you covered too. Is you have to take a beat. And I think one of the most important things, and all I want you to do is to have one sentence prepared. Anytime your partner says something to you, you're going to say this: Okay, you're going to say, I didn't know this. I would like you to tell me more.

Catch, pause, repair from your friend Rainn Maida.

Oh, Rainn's catch, pause, repair.

Is that what that is?

No, that's just a— it's close— a Dr. Tracy Dalgleish script that I like.

It's a good one.

Sure.

It made me think of that, though.

You're right.

As a dude.

Oh, that's such a good episode because I just love— I mean, Rainn and Chantel are great examples of what it means to really go through long-term relationship high, high, high functioning. Yeah.

Long-term relationships.

And I think that's the other thing too. And I love their mission. They have a book coming out. I can't wait to get it. But their goal really has been to help people to see long-term relationships are not easy. They take consistent, constant work and you are going to have your ups and downs. And there actually was this really great example of Rain being defensive in their film that they did.

Yeah.

Right. She said something. He got defensive. He shut down. She shut down. It was a beautiful demonstration of their cycle. I love that they showed it to us.

Yeah. Okay. Back to you.

So if you are the person who gets defensive, I want you to find one phrase, one of the other ones we've adopted. Tell me more about that. I hear you. Tell me more about that. The other one is, I didn't know. Tell me more.

I think what's implicit in there, it's like one, sparking curiosity. But it's also a way to give the defensive person time. Yes, because you're just creating space with words.

Here's the thing, I come to you and I say, I feel so lonely, and you say, oh, I didn't know, I believe you, can you tell me more about that? And then I can start talking about examples, and you'll likely hear what my experience is like, and then, then you can understand it, and then you can ask, what do you need from me? And that completely changes the conversation.

Yeah.

Or even you might even start with, what can I do to support you in this? Those are 3 really good examples. All right. I'm gonna give one last question for people who are listening to think about this week. If you could show up differently in your relationship today, where you prioritize connection and trying to understand the other person with curiosity, compassion, Who is that person and what would you be doing today? Let that one land. Who are you? Imagine yourself showing up connected, curious, compassionate. What would you be doing?

Like, what other time and space would they have to do other things? Is that what you mean?

No.

Okay, missed that one. Explain it again for us lay folks. Give us an example.

Sure. So when I think about that, I think about myself as Someone who asks more questions.

Okay.

Or someone who doesn't take everything personally. Someone who doesn't make my partner's mood about me. Someone who is willing to be vulnerable. Someone who is willing to step into the experience of someone else. Someone who tells themself, there are so many more things to know about my partner that I don't even know. And there are so many more things about myself to share with my partner that they don't even know.

That's lovely. Well put.

Thank you.

Thank you for those examples, because that— when you said just show up as someone different, I'm like, okay.

I know. And I think that's something that I really love about having these conversations with you, is because you remind me sometimes that I ask these really big questions and they don't land.

And I don't know that it's that they don't land, but sometimes, like, everyone— this is what you do for a living, so there's like a vernacular that some of us just miss. And you're like, well, how would I be like I don't know, you'd be 5'6" and standing tall. I don't know, like, I mean, listen, we're not changing our height.

I remember asking people once, like, do you know about inner child, like your inner child work? And someone who's close to us had said, like, what, what do you mean inner child? I don't understand. This is like many years ago. And I remember feeling like, what? Like, not, not as a— because I think sometimes my experience, and I think many of the listeners will also say, yes Tracy, we know what inner child is. And so I think sometimes I go to this place of like, we know all of this and that's just—

anyways, good job.

Thank you. All right. Thanks for hanging out with us today. If anything from today's conversation resonated with you, I would love for you to share this episode. And I'm actually going to encourage you to send this one to your partner and open up a conversation.

Likely your husband.

About defensiveness. Yes.

Yeah. All right. The words you include when you send it will be important.

Yes. How would you like to receive that?

That's a good question. I would not— the word need would not be in that sentence. It would be—

I need you to listen to this?

Yeah.

Okay.

It would be, yeah, from curiosity. Like, hey, I listened to this. A couple of things stood out to me. What do you think? Like, put it on them.

What do you think? I want to know what you think.

Yeah.

What if we started recording our podcast while being in the golf cart? Do you think that more men would listen?

No, they're playing golf.

Fuck that. All right.

Nice try.

Thanks for clicking play. I'll see you next time. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute the care from a licensed mental health care provider. See you next time.

The golf cart's not a bad idea.

I mean, it's kind of a fun idea, right?