ICYMI: Defensiveness vs Assertiveness

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When they're defensive, it's not that they don't love you. It's not that they don't want to help. It more than likely comes from a place of shame. Maybe some avoidance anxiety. Maybe they didn't get the space they needed as a kid.

Hey, it's Dr. Tracy and I'm so glad you're joining me today. Before we jump into this episode, I want to share a few words in reflecting on this conversation with Greg. Here's what I want to start with. Assertiveness is isn't about being louder, it's actually about getting clearer. And so often in our relationships we get stuck in these self protective modes of defensiveness and deflection and dismissiveness simply because we haven't yet learned to slow down and regulate ourselves enough to fully understand what's happening inside of us. I want you to hold this in mind as we go through today's conversation. And I want you also to know that this is something that Greg And I have also had to work through in our own relationship in the sense of not coming in from a place of our old patterns or our early wirings, or getting caught in heat or our upset feelings, but instead learning how to pause, to reflect, and to speak from a place of wanting to be understood and to move forward. I'm so glad Greg joined me for this conversation and now I'm so glad that you are joining me here. It's one of our most listened to episodes, and that's for a good reason. Someone recently just sent me a DM saying how helpful this episode was. So whether you're the one who tends to go quiet or the one who gets louder, this is a conversation worth revisiting.

I'm really excited to dive into this question because this shows up in the community frequently and the question is often what is the difference between assertive and defensive communication? And ultimately what we're talking about here is communication and just how much we struggle to feel good in our relationships, to be able to communicate our needs, our wishes, our boundaries, and so on Instagram one day I was sharing an example of how we might communicate a no or a not right now with our partners in a very assertive way. I don't remember this specific example, but I had shared something along the lines of hey, I'm busy right now. I know you really need my help. Unfortunately I'm not able to, and I received so many DMs from people sharing that this was so incredibly uncomfortable for them and actually they had felt like it was super defensive. So Greg and I are going to jump into this conversation because I think having Greg's perspective here with us is also going to be really helpful because you are also a defensiveness expert, a dude who's defensive.

A dude finally get to talk about something I'm actually really good at.

Yes, you are really good at defensiveness. And it's something that we both label and we can talk about. And defensiveness really is just this experience where we want to protect ourselves. We feel like we are under attack and we don't really know how to respond. But maybe I can ask you what what happens for you when you are defensive, when you're feeling defensive, when you reply that really quick defensive snap.

I mean, I think the short answer is I don't always know because I'm probably flooded and I'm not taking the time to maybe really listen and take in all the information and there's probably some shame showing up and I don't want to be wrong and I don't want to upset you, my partner, so it just becomes very reactionary. That's kind of my take on it.

Yeah, totally. We're sitting together so that we can first give a perspective of a defensive master. Like, give that different perspective. Two, so we can help people understand today what assertiveness actually looks like, what that means in a relationship. And then three, also be able to talk about ways that you can go about doing this. So before we jump into what the difference between these two modes, I'm going to call them modes, let's talk a little bit about communication first as a whole. And I think it's important. Important for us to recognize that communication is actually really hard. This is a skill that you. I mean, if we talk, just you and I, but also people in our community, people inside, be connected. Most of us don't ever learn how to communicate.

We don't learn. And it's probably not modeled in a great way or if it is modeled in a good way. Not seeing all of it.

Not seeing all of it. Yeah. When you say that, I kind of think about, you know, I'll ask clients, did you see mom and dad argue or did you see your caregivers argue? And they'll say, no, I didn't. They never argued. Okay, so then what did you learn about that?

Right.

And if you. If you never see someone go through the cycle of getting upset, feeling angry, sad, pain, and then coming to that rupture point and then also coming back together and repairing, you don't know what that looks like. Which in essence is also part of communication.

Yeah. The big takeaway from my perspective, as you say that too, is like having the repair model. I think we probably also, our parents fight totally normal. But I don't really recall many examples. I'm sure there were of, like, a really solid repair. I think they wouldn't do it in front of their kids. I think that's the difference between that generation and our generation that we hope to do is like, they would go in the room and have it out or hopefully repair, but they would try not to in front of the kids, where we hope to maybe do it more in front of the kids. So. So we model it for them.

Yeah, I think that is such a good point. So I know I relate to that a lot. I know a lot of people can relate to that in the sense that there must have been something that my parents did to connect after their disagreements. We saw the anger, but yet we didn't necessarily see how they were coming together. But I think the other thing, Greg, that I want to acknowledge is that communication has become such a buzz with word. And I think of it in the sense of, well, even clinically, when people come into my office, I will say, tell me what you want to get out of therapy. And people will say, couples will say, I want to learn how to communicate better. It's so big.

It's huge. I mean, I get it, it's obviously a critical skill in life, in your relationship, but it's so big that it's, I'm sure for people it's really overwhelming. But I think the pop psychology piece of it makes it kind of a default catch all phrase that just sucks up so much oxygen and maybe overwhelms people.

Yeah, of course it becomes this like elusive goal, this really big piece or even sometimes a vague solution, even. Right. Someone will say like, I want to improve our communication. Okay, but what does that mean? Like what is it specifically? Are we talking about negative communication patterns? Are we talking about the cycles that we get into? Are we even talking about some of those inner wounds that keep showing up over and over again, which I think also can be an element to defensiveness. Like what's underneath that?

Yeah, and I mean, I think that's what's great about a lot of the work you do on Instagram. And then more specifically inside Be Connected is kind of break it down into smaller pieces because if you try and just improve your communication, you're just setting yourself up to fail. So you have to break it down into smaller bite sized things that you can actually start, finish and improve.

Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of something that's like, you know, in those like frustrating moments where it's like you just can't communicate. We don't know how to communicate. And yeah, I get that. And there's more in there. It's interesting because if we even think about communication, we are always constantly communicating in all of the things that we do. Whether we choose not to say something that is a form of communication, whether we choose to say it in a way that maybe doesn't let the other person know what we really mean or feel. Or even our nonverbals, the non verbals.

Particularly in that couple dynamic. Right. Like you think of the looks and the eye roll and a lot of that stuff can really contribute to the cycles that people get in.

It is one of the biggest contributors to their cycles. The. Of course, really Greg has a really great eye roll that he doesn't know he does. And I can sense it from across the room with a barrier between us, it's just very slight. But we know that communication is 80%. It's 80% of how we communicate with other people. So you think about that. Only 20% is about the words that we're using to let someone else know what's happening. And then on top of that, I really like to break communication down. What is this? This is. I have an internal experience about something. I have to be able to label the experience inside of me, know what it is. So if I'm triggered, for example, what's happening inside of me right now. And actually I had just said that to you today in the car ride. We're talking about something in our business. And I said I'm feeling defensive right now and I can feel like this uncomfortable feeling inside. I wanted to kind of get short you and like say things that weren't really helpful. My go to, you never help out. Which that's not true. And yeah, so the non verbal piece is really important. I think it's important that we recognize that you can't avoid communicating. It's always happening. All right, let's talk about the assertiveness and defensiveness difference. And we want to first say that assertiveness is something that's deliberate. So again, I just, I don't want to kind of keep saying this, but it's taught. We need to learn how to be assertive because we often witness other people communicating in passive aggressive ways or in passive ways. Assertiveness is about respecting both you and me. And so when I share something, I'm holding within my mind that I have a context and there's stuff happening inside of me that is also filtered through previous experiences, previous relationships. And then you have a context and you have all of your experiences in your previous relationships and then they're coming together. And so we have to look at both self and other. You and I talk about that a lot of like, what's my experience and what's your experience in this situation?

As someone who's not particularly assertive for most of my life, I mean, something that really stands out is the respect piece. And the respect to the other is a given. The respect to yourself is a skill from someone who's not naturally assertive. It can be really powerful.

I think that's why people get defensive because they're trying to find the self respect, find the like, where's my voice? But I don't know how to find it. And so then I do that knee jerk reaction 100%.

I can totally speak to that because I don't know how to like find that self respect or that self confidence to hold myself in that regard. I don't know if it's putting yourself down the right way, but just not holding yourself to the standard. So it's just this quick defensive deflection. Maybe deflection is almost a better word than defensive. Sometimes deflecting it off. It's easier to just do that than like say the hard thing, even if it means giving yourself the value you deserve.

That's interesting. The value I deserve. The value of I'm allowed to say no or I'm allowed to say hey, the tone you're using with me right now is actually really harsh. Can you try again or. The value of this is really important to me and I need to be able to do this. Yeah, yeah, right. I know. It's so tricky.

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So I think that piece there with defensiveness, let's like break that open. And if you've been following me for some Time you, you'll know this about me. I'm really cautious about big pop psychology terms like gaslighting, manipulation, victim, emotional neglect. These are all important words. I think they all need to be used appropriately.

They've been co opted.

They have been co opted. And you know, I just think we need to be really cautious because the words we use become our inner narratives. I can think of how many times I've said to myself, such a failure, I'm failing, I'm failing at this. Da, da, da. And then I can believe that I can grow into this narrative of I'm failing, I'm a failure. And then if we also then say to ourselves, like, you're gaslighting me, then we continue to feed into that and then we create the confirmation bias, which is then I see all of these examples of you communicating in a certain way that's like, oh, look, see, he's gaslighting me. He's gaslighting me. So it's like that's a confirmation bias. It's like such a tricky thought pattern that can show up in a relationship. So defensiveness then is. Dismissiveness is as a knee jerk reaction.

It's deflection could be a failure to take responsibility.

Yes. Okay, that one is huge. It is the avoiding responsibility.

I'm up here on my avoidant cloud, avoiding responsibility.

Right, right. It's pretty safe up in that cloud, eh?

Yeah.

And then minimizing. And we've talked about this before, we've talked about kind of that like avoidance and anxiety cycle. And I just want to go back to what you had said at the beginning because it's a really important piece around understanding defensiveness. So let's make sure that we highlight this. Deep down underneath defensiveness are the themes that I hear from particularly more likely men. I have noticed. And also this is the work that comes from Dr. Sue Johnson, who has worked decades with couples and has written the Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy book. Women tend to be concerned about social connection and feeling important to their partners in a heterosexual relationship, whereas men are more concerned, tend to be more concerned with adequacy. And that connects to that shame, to the feelings of failure to am I ever going to get this right with you? And I think then when we see defensiveness, it's like there's so much deep shame. You're trying to protect yourself. But what ends up happening though is you're spiraling, you're not taking responsibility, and as we've already said, you're not respecting the self and other. All right, let's think of some examples here just to demonstrate what they sound like side by side. So you do the defensive one, I'll do the assertive one. So the first example is one partner expresses their frustration or disappointment in a choice or behavior by the other person.

The defensive response might sound like, I was just doing my best.

Yeah, I can relate to that.

Seriously, I was just doing my best.

I was just trying my best. Yeah, okay, so the assertive response then would be, I see you are upset about this and you needed me. I'm feeling overwhelmed and I need more time. Yeah, right.

It's deliberate. I hear you often talking about sort of responses as a way of creating space or time. I think that's key because defensive responses are always quick. I said it earlier. They're quick, they're reactive. Right. Where I to put that before is like, it's kind of like a bridge. It's like you're labeling it, acknowledging it, but asking for space.

If you haven't listened yet and you're here on this one, go back to season one and listen to the how do I Deal with Defensiveness episode. It's been another popular download. But yeah, Greg, you're absolutely right about that because defensiveness is so quick and it could be an attack or it could be a perceived attack. But here's the piece is that you always have a choice in how you respond to your partner. And this is something that you have gotten really good at too, is that even if I come in hot to you and I'm kind of like the why aren't you. Aren't you helping out like you, you're always on your phone. I'll just take that as a common example that shows up not with you necessarily, but in terms of the community. That was my choice in that moment to respond, to communicate with you in that way. And your choice then is, do I meet you at that level, which is, this is the low road. This is the. I'm responding from the back of my brain. I am being reactive. I am being emotional. I'm being guided by anger, shame, fear, anxiety, all of that tough stuff. Or do we then pause and we say, okay, something's coming at me. This is hard. This doesn't feel good. Am I going to meet her at this low road right now, or am I going to take the high road? The high road, meaning I'm going to take a breath, connect to the front of my brain. The front of my brain can say, huh? I don't know what to say here. That's going to move us forward. So I'm going to say something like, thank you for sharing that with me. I need a bit more time. Or I'm not quite sure what you're sharing with me. Can you try again? Right, like, so it's not you being like, oh, I was just trying my best.

I think from a guy's perspective too, like, you don't always have to have a response. It might just be okay to say, you know what? I'm not really sure what to say right now. I'm going to take a couple of minutes. I hear you. See you.

Do you think you felt that as a guy at school, as a male in school, like, you always had to have a response?

I don't know. I mean, I just. Maybe I'm being more broad, but like one's ego or one's inflated sense of self might say, like, if you're coming in hot at me, can't just take that shit.

Oh, that's what it is, right? Like, oh, don't just take it. Yeah, yeah.

Not a pushover. Right? There's. There's almost like the male brain in there that's wanting to react to it, but it's counterproductive. It's a waste of time. It's going to create more divisiveness, get you in this cycle. And I think from a guy's perspective, we get defensive because we're reacting to what's coming at us. It might be partly ego driven. We don't want to hear it, but man, we're creating way more work and wasted time for it. Like, if we took a 30,000 foot view of the cycle we get into, it sucks. A lot of time and energy that I think if we could avoid, we would.

Okay, example two, One partner asks for help with something.

The defensive reaction. Do you know how busy I am? I'm swung. You can just do it yourself.

Yeah, I hear that one a lot. So this is one that shows up in the community a lot as one of those trigger Tuesday issues that show up or DMs that come in. And what it sounds like is I ask my partner to help me. And I mean, that could be a whole other topic around the mental load. You and I have talked a little bit about that before in another episode. But this is this piece here where you say, I'm so overwhelmed, I need your help. You know, there's just so much to do. And your partner's like, I'm doing so much already. And that is really tricky because that defensive reply discounts the experience of the person saying, I really need help. I'm so overwhelmed. Foreign.

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Okay? So if you are receiving this, ask for help with something. Instead of getting defensive and saying, you know how busy I am, I'm swamped. You just do it. The assertive response would be, I see you. Right? To reflect something back about the other person, you really need My help. I see you're overwhelmed. That is one of the best things, things that you can do with someone when they come to you, because you are de. Escalating anything coming at you.

I see you. Yeah.

I see you.

It's just a hack. It's a good hack.

It is. Yeah. Our little guys love the word hack. Lately, he's like, this is a life hack. Here is your life hack. This is the life hack. I see you. Or this is something that is hard. Or I'm seeing that you're really struggling right now. And that is quite different than. It's almost like this. The defensiveness is almost like this vortex that, like, it's a vacuum. Like, I'm gonna suck this in. And, like, it goes right to my core and my sense of worthiness.

Yeah.

And it means everything about me. And, oh, no, my partner is actually seeing that I'm defective. And so now I gotta, like, put up this armor and say, I'm swamped. Can't you see all the things I'm doing? Right? So, like, just really seeing your partner in that moment, it can be so helpful. And then letting them know where you're at. Right. Like, I think that's the thing is that again, going back to two people's context, maybe they've got a really big phone call coming up. Maybe they have a big deadline to meet the end of the week. And you guys haven't talked about it yet, but being able to say, I want to be able to help you, but today I'm not able to, or how important is this issue right here? I want us to work through it. I just don't have the bandwidth to do this right now. So that again, is that. And Greg, I think you did such a great job by labeling that early on is like, what's the self respect? Right. Other respect and self respect. Because when you can respect your time and space and be able to say, like, there's just a lot going on for me right now, I don't think I could tap into this. And so what assertiveness then does. It's about making space for your thoughts and feelings and your needs and letting other people know that. And of course, that all depends on who's on the receiving end. Some people can't necessarily receive all those thoughts and feelings.

That's true too.

Right. So it depends on who you're talking with. And then also, too, I think what's really important when it comes to this conversation is when it comes to any kind of skill that we're learning so whether it's about setting boundaries, you need to be assertive to be able to set a boundary. Whether we're talking about getting out of these cycles or the assertiveness, any of these pieces need to be practiced and practice with people that you feel you can do this with.

Yeah. I also think assertiveness doesn't mean harsh. I think, yes, the new. The nuance and the language you use and the words we choose. And assertive communication can be really, really important. And I think that's maybe why folks on that reel were thinking you were being defensive is maybe you chose stronger language where you have to tap into your own personality and be authentic in how you do it. I mean, if you're not one who's loud and brash, being assertive doesn't mean being someone who you're not and all of a sudden being loud. And you have to kind of find that authentic self to do it, but still follow through and do it.

And that piece there is that when you're assertive, it doesn't necessarily mean that other people are going to like what you're sharing.

Probably not particularly in the beginning.

And I can think, you know, that assertive response. Had you said that to me at times where I'm, you know, really needing your help with something and you're like, I know, I see you. You really need my help. Like, I'm just not able to do this right now. Can we find another time that has to filter through my ego? And my ego's like, my ego loves control. So it's going to be like, what? No, I want to do this now. We need to do this now. This is sorting through the kids clothes from winter to spring is a now thing. I'm just picking something silly. But, you know, it's hard to receive that.

But maybe the person receiving it makes them think a little bit. And maybe it actually starts a better dialogue versus the defensive response, just shuts it down. Maybe the person responding to this sort of communication doesn't like it, but maybe they, okay, but I need this now. And then maybe the partner coming back goes, you know what? Maybe you're right. Okay, let's. Can you give me 20 minutes? And then we'll find a way to make this happen. So all of a sudden there's kind of been this back and forth, more respectful. It's more productive instead of just this slamming the door gets nowhere, means both partners and, you know, not a good space.

Yeah, you need to create that world together. That is a. It's not a. You versus me. It's us against the problem. And what's the problem here? The problem is there's this stuff that needs to get done. So then how do you and I be on the same team around that? Yeah, you know, I think there's something else that comes up when it comes to that defensiveness piece. You get defensive because you and I are not perfect. We don't present ourselves as a perfect relationship. No, we get stuck, we get into our cycle, we learn how to repair, we learn how to have these really hard conversations. And this is a tangent, but let's just normalize that. If you're in a relationship, you need to be having hard conversations. That's how you make relationships stronger, by getting through them. But here's the piece though, is that when you get defensive, when you shut the other person out like that, they don't get to see your inner world. And I think that was something that was always really hard for me, was that I didn't get to know where you were at on the inside. Right. Because as partners, we want to know. So if you say, oh, Tracy, this big meeting is coming up, I'm super stressed about it. I've been trying to get all the things and like, anxiety is just totally showing up, then I'd be able to say, right, me asking you to sort the kids clothes right now is totally not a top priority. How can I then support you? Right.

That's so true. Because you'll often say to me something along the lines of like, oh, it'd be nice if you'd share more. But I think sometimes by giving defensive responses to things, it just shuts it down and it doesn't allow. Allow you in air quotes. Right. So we don't have that next level conversation. The slightly deeper conversation give you insight into what's going on. I mean, we, we're all so busy, our attention is so divided, our devices, you know, you layer in that kind of stuff these days. Like, are we having these rituals during the day of like connecting for five or 10 minutes to have these conversations? Like, it's getting harder. And you have kids and family and priorities and activities.

Right. So the, like getting to know your internal world is so important then rather than that defensive stance. And I think the other piece is if someone replies with something like, I'm swamped, why can't you just do it? Or you're always asking me, I help you already. I do enough. It doesn't really create a sense of empathy either. Right. And that empathy is really important in a relationship. Of, oh, you're struggling with something, how can I support you through that?

Yeah, it gives an opportunity to connect and be closer. Helps with your intimacy. Like, there's a lot of levels to it. Right.

So then I think we can say that assertive communication then is about building connection, is allowing the other person to see you and to hear you. And it's not about self preservation. And in some ways, that actually is what it means to be in a relationship. We both need to step into that relational arena and be vulnerable and risk with the other person and trust that if I'm going to tell you something about me, that you aren't going to throw that back at me at another time. And we can be open and curious and hold compassion for each other. And that I think really helps to build that closeness between two people. All right, let's talk about some practical steps that you can take to start changing this defensive pattern. But I'm going to ask my defensive expert here, what would be the first step for someone to take to help move out of the defensiveness and into assertiveness?

So I think I kind of alluded to it earlier in the concept of just trying to buy some time. So it could be as simple as saying, I'm feeling really defensive right now. Could be mirroring back to you. Like I said earlier, I see you. For me, I mean, the first thing is just finding a way to give yourself that 5 to 10 seconds of space before reacting. I mean, we're always taught as kids, like, think before you talk, before you respond. It's hard to do, and particularly in the context of your partnership and maybe your partner's coming in hot at you like we talked about earlier. There's that ego driven part of you that wants to respond, but just finding way, whatever works for you to just find a few seconds literally before you respond.

I almost want to rewrite that. Think before you act. It's almost like a be. Be with yourself before you act. Yeah, that's what we're trying to do because oftentimes we can't think.

Can't think. It's. You don't have enough time.

No. And that reactivity, you're like, I just need to get out of here. Right. Like your, your nervous system is just firing like fight or flight or shut down and freeze. So it is really that, like, just be in the, in a moment pause. That old, just classic quote from Viktor Frankl is between a stimulus and a response, there is a space to pause. And it's so true. I think the other Thing I wanted to add here is that in a relationship we get stuck in these cycles. And so even when one person starts to change, it might take a bit for the other person to respond to that. Right. Because we go on autopilot, we keep repeating these same patterns. So I'm thinking of an example of a couple that I would work with where maybe he has been so used to being defensive, I'm going to use he and she. She learns to stop blaming him and criticizing him. So she's really doing that work, but he's still defensive. I want to emphasize that these dynamics are not because of you at fault or he or she at fault, whoever it is. It's the dynamic that is the problem. And if we continue so we. I say me if I'm constantly in this critical space with you, Greg, of course you're defensive. It doesn't feel good, Right. So we have these like self reinforcing patterns. But when I step out of that and then learn to pause, if you continue to be defensive over time, you might then start to do something different. Right. So if you're the person who has a defensive partner, I want you to know that if you change how you communicate with them over time, they will start to do something different. Or if you're changing how you communicate with them, and this is what I teach in Be Connected, my online program, if you're changing how you're speaking to them, you can at some point then say, wow, I see you're defensive and maybe you can help me understand what's going on for you. Or you can even say, you know, help me see what you're feeling in this moment, something. Right. So you can start doing different things once we step out of that pattern. But I think that just going back to what you said there, Greg, is pausing is so important so that we don't get stuck and washed away in.

That, yeah, this might not be in the moment, but just this realization. If we step back and think about what happens when we're defensive and how much time is wasted. And as partners, we don't like fighting. I just look at it like truly from like a utility standpoint. It's just how much time is wasted when we get in these patterns.

And like, there's a good reason people are defensive. I know, right? I mean, we think about all these, the people who just never had a chance to have their feelings seen growing up. We just repeat that throughout. And I agree with you, I completely agree with you. It is such a time suck. And for so many of People, they're just not there yet.

So are you saying that people who are defensive, it's like an outlet because of, like, the shame or whatever they may have had as a kid?

So it's.

I guess it is normal that they would act like that.

Yeah.

But then the. The person who's defensive then has to be able to look at their partner and say, are they doing the same thing to me? Are they really trying to make my feelings not exist here? Or is there an opportunity for us to do something different?

Yeah, that's a skill for someone who's defensive.

A hundred percent.

Right. That's the 300 level. Yeah, I would think.

Yeah. It's therapy.

Yeah. Fair enough.

Yeah, it's hard. I think this stuff is really hard. Okay, so I talk about this in my book. It's one of my favorite chapters in my book. It's coming out in September, and I'm so pumped for it, so make sure you stay tuned. It's going to be five stories of people I've worked with. And one of those stories is Greg and I, what's happened in our marriage. And I love the humanness in the book. But the one chapter that is my favorite is when I talk about implicit and explicit memories. Because we learn how to. How to communicate in this way, in an implicit way. So it's not that we can often say, I'm defensive because that one time my dad said, suck it up. Don't cry over spilt milk. You're being ridiculous. Right. We don't. We often don't have those memories.

No.

But there is an implicit experience to the way that we are today, to those narratives and scripts we hold in our mind. Which leads me to something that could be really helpful. So if you are looking to shift more into that assertive space, then after disagreement with your partner, sit down and actually write out what happened, how you were feeling, what was getting stirred up inside of you, and then even write out in therapy, I call it like, let's rewind the tape and have a redo. What would you do differently? Write out what you would do differently next time. Because then if you write it out, I see you, I need more time, or I'm. I see you're upset, I'm feeling defensive. That then helps you to practice it in those really hard moments.

Would you suggest they share it with their partner way after the fact?

Why way after?

Well, could be 30 minutes.

After 30 minutes, recommended time is 30 minutes to take a pause to allow your nervous system to come back to regulated and Calm. Yeah. I think that really depends. I think that depends on is this a relationship that we're moving forward or are we continuing to just keep spiraling? So can my partner actually meet me at this level? So it depends.

Yeah, that's a big depends.

It depends. But if you and your partner are sitting down saying, listen, we've got to change how we're communicating because we are just the wedge between us is so far. It doesn't feel good for you. It doesn't feel good for me. I thought about what happened earlier. Can I share that with you? And can I ask you to put down your weapons? Right. Like, can we just put down our armor here and do this together?

Yeah. That takes some vulnerability from both, I'd imagine. So what people do who aren't there yet with their partner, continue working on the self. Yeah, Like, I. I can just. I'm holding in my mind couples who. That's amazing if they can have that, but I would imagine most couldn't.

It's the working on yourself. It is the. We need to acknowledge that we can't change other people, and that's a really hard thing to come into. We need to acknowledge that we only change what we do. So you then practice changing how you're communicating with your partner and over time, reflecting these things back to them. Holding up that mirror. It's not your job to change them. It's not your job to step into a therapist role, but you can have healthy, loving boundaries. Hey. And you've said that to me. Hey, I think this is a kind of critical here. Like, can you say this again for me? Or you'll say you'll do it in a really, like, gentle, firm way now, which is like a. Hey, hey, hang on. You're going there fast. Let's slow down. Or you've said it to me before, like, we're on the same team. Hang on, pause. We're on the same team, and you saying that to me has. Has really helped me to come down from that. So that's something that you've done, but it's a vulnerable thing to do. All right, so let's just touch base again on the difference between assertiveness and defensiveness. And if you are someone who gets defensive, how you can then tap more into that assertive space. So remember, defensiveness is a way of communicating. That is a form of protecting yourself from a perceived attack. It taps into dismissiveness. It taps into avoiding taking responsibility. It leads the other person to not feel seen and heard. But assertiveness is about respecting the other person and yourself. And what that means is holding context for both people, which is, I see something is happening for you. Here's what you want and need. Maybe you say, tell me more about it. And then coming back to the self, which is, here's where I'm at. So how can you then practice being more assertive? First, I just want to emphasize that you are allowed to communicate how you feel and what you need. Every person needs to remember that. And that communication doesn't necessarily mean the other person is going to be happy about it. That I think it's important we remember that sometimes we have to communicate hard things. Okay, so that's one piece. So the second piece then is give yourself a moment to pause. It is so powerful. If you give yourself 20 seconds, if you nod, if you take a slow breath, if you push your feet into the ground, if you let your partner know, I see you or have a statement, that works. Right? I hear you. I think this is important to you. I'm so glad you shared this with me. This just allows you to get centered and grounded into what's next. Your what next moment might be, gosh, I'm really feeling defensive about this and I can't respond right now. So actually labeling the internal experience for you, okay, that could just be the place to start. And remember, if your partner's upset about that, that's okay. It's okay if your partner's upset because then what you're doing in that moment is you're no longer spiraling more into upping the ante and one upping each other. Labeling what you feel inside can be really helpful. Again, that lets your partner know where you're at or letting them know your internal experience and what you feel in need. Would you add anything, Greg?

If you're listening and your partner is the defensive one, I just want you to remember, when they're defensive, it's not that they don't love you, it's not that they don't want to help. It more than likely comes from place of shame. Maybe some avoidance anxiety. Maybe they didn't get the space they needed as a kid, you know, a lot of different stuff. So as the defensive one who's had lots of practice, I just kind of wanted to throw that out there just to normalize. Might not be helpful to hear it from your partner, but maybe if it's being heard here from a different male voice, it might just help shift some perspective.

I want to pause and say thank you for listening today. I am so, so glad that you have joined us and hung out with Greg and I to talk about something that I think is such an important conversation. Defensiveness is a huge topic that shows up in relationships. It shows up in our community. I would love to hear what you think of today's episode. If you are on itunes, click the stars, leave me a few words so that I know what you thought of the episode. Or send me a DM on Instagram. Instagram. I love hearing from you and I will see you next week. Remember, this podcast is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider.