Vulnerability, Vacation, and the Mental Load

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Welcome to Dear Dr. Tracy, the podcast that dives deep into the messy, beautiful, beautiful world of relationships. I'm Dr. Tracy, clinical psychologist, relationship expert, and your go to guide for navigating relationships, boundaries in laws, and everything in between. Whether you're striving to rekindle the spark, set healthy limits, or build deeper connections, this is the space where real talk meets expert advice. Together, we'll tackle the tough questions, untangle the sticky situations, and uncover the small shifts that lead to big transformations in your relationships. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's rewrite the stories you tell yourself. This is Dear Dr. Tracy, your guide to creating relationships that feel good.

Hey, it's Dr. Tracy. Thanks for clicking Play. I'm sitting with my husband Greg, and we have a Great conversation ahead. Thanks for hanging out with us here, Greg.

Thanks for having me back.

I wanted to start today's conversation by sharing a community win. We haven't done this before, but I got this DM and we were in the kitchen and I said, greg, listen to this.

Yeah, super cool.

It was so cool to receive this one. So the other reason why I wanted to share this is because it's actually from one of our male followers and my community is mostly women. And since releasing the first book, more men started to follow me.

Yeah, it's evolved. It's still primarily women, but it is cool to hear from some of the men in the community.

Yeah, it's really cool when. When you send me a dm. So if you. By the way, as you're listening, if you've noticed that you tried something different after listening to one of our podcast episodes or you saw one of my reels and you did something with your partner and it's something that felt different or was positive, send me a dm. I love hearing from you. It is one of my favorite things in this community.

Yeah, it's. It's cool to hear from people. I would say equally too. If there's. They're still stuck on something and maybe they tried some, it didn't work. Tell us that too.

Yes.

This can't be all positive all the time.

Oh, absolutely.

And I'm gonna plug relationships after all.

Absolutely.

I'm gonna plug it here too. That if you do have a question, I am looking through them@drtracyd.com forward slash podcast. You can send me as much detail as you want. The more, the better. It helps me. I answer them here on the podcast. And the other piece here is you.

Can go ahead and send me a voice note over on Instagram and then I'll play the voice note here as a way to answer your question.

Okay, let's come back to this because I really wanna read this. So one of my male followers wrote, I used to get angry that my wife felt disappointment. It took 10 years to realize.

It only took recognizing it to change.

Because I choose to be closed off.

And avoid vulnerability, I avoid disappointment. It's a big feeling. Now I know that we can sit with that feeling. And I don't have to quote, unquote, fix the disappointment.

There's a lot in there. Tell me. Tell me what you think.

Okay.

So the first thing that really stood out for me was the moving away from emotional fusion. So oftentimes when our partners feel something, we immediately suck it in.

Like A vacuum cleaner.

We take it on.

We take it on and then we step into this fixer role. Like, it's all on us to fix.

Do you know anything about that?

Little bit. A little bit, Yeah. I. I operate in that space quite a bit.

Yeah, I know.

It's an evolution, though. It's a couple things that stood out to me in that. The length of time and kind of the recognition for both his partner, but also what he's doing.

Tell me more about that.

Well, just in the sense of, like.

He'S saying, like, I would get angry. Yeah. But that doesn't have to kind of take over.

Yeah, yeah.

So just that first sentence I used to get angry that my wife felt disappointment. And it's interesting because anger can be a signal for people that you've got something going on and it needs attention. And I think that's why we do.

A disservice to this emotion. So many people don't allow themselves to.

Feel angry and to.

Not to project it out and to put it onto someone else and to.

Rage while you're driving or something, but instead to be curious about what is.

This emotion telling me.

I hear that intellectually, and that seems to make sense, but I think maybe we can help people. Is like, how do they actually do that? Like, I know this anger. It's just anger doesn't seem to be something that you, like, are introspective about. It's just kind of this outward thing. So how, like, as a guy or even a female, like, how do you do that?

Yeah, I mean, I think first you need to understand what does anger look.

Like when it shows up?

Sure.

Is it that you're raising your voice?

Is it something in your body?

Is it a certain type of thought pattern, like, what comes with it? Because our feeling has all kinds of.

Other pieces with it. They have thoughts with it. They have bodily sensations, they have urges.

Some people say, like, when I feel so angry. Well, I say when I'm angry. I say I feel heat from my.

Toes to my fingers, like it surges through my body. Some people will say they can just feel their fist go.

A tightening around the steering wheel when they get angry. So then the next piece is slowing.

It down and saying, well, what has just led me to feel anger here? So for this person specifically, they're saying, when my wife felt disappointment.

So my wife is having a feeling.

And I would get angry.

Yeah.

So that was.

That's the cue there. And then it can be as simple as. And people have heard me say this.

Here in the podcast before asking yourself, what do I need in this moment? What does this emotion need?

Or even saying, what's this telling me? Sometimes before we get there, we even need to go into a. Where have I felt this before? What's this reminding me of? Just really breaking that apart.

Yeah. Yeah. That seems like more of a better first step than, like, going to this. You're kind of asking them to go to this very reflective.

Space about this kind of, like, instinctual thing. It kind of seems counterintuitive.

And so when I read that, I thought, okay, so here's a man who is now learning to step out of that emotional fusion. So fused, as in, my wife's having this feeling. I'm fused to it, and I'm feeling it too. And it's about creating space. And I was thinking about how in our partnerships, we're not there to stop.

Our partner from having any kind of feeling. It's the same thing with our kids. All feelings are okay. They're not uncomfortable.

We might not like them, but all feelings can have space, and we don't need to fix it. And the other piece in there is that we don't need to attach our partner having an experience or feelings to.

Our sense of worth.

Key.

So important.

So, for example.

I don't know.

Let's take a recent one. Like, you know, I was hoping on a date. I'm just going to make this up where I'm hoping on a date that you take me.

I say you plan the date, and then you take me to this restaurant.

Because you were really feeling, like, Thai food. I know you like Thai food. And I'm thinking, I really wanted tacos.

Right, Right.

Like, and I'm.

I might feel disappointment. It's okay for me to feel that way. It would be okay that I feel this sense of disappointment that we're not.

Doing what I had kind of hoped and wished and I didn't express it.

Right, Right.

But that doesn' you.

Not enough in our relationship.

I just think that's so important for.

People to see is, like, when my partner's having this feeling, it's okay for you to feel it.

But the other thing that stood out.

For me from what this person said, is that he chose to close off and avoid vulnerability so that. Oh, yeah. So that he could avoid that feeling of disappointment.

Yeah. There's two things going on. Right. He'd get angry, but then he'd get.

Angry because his partner's feeling an emotion.

That he doesn't allow himself to feel.

Right. So his response was to shut down.

Yes. So that he wouldn't have disappointment.

Because here's. Let's think of the vulnerable things that happens in a relationship.

A vulnerable experience might be. I go to my partner and I say, hey, you look good tonight. You wanna.

Right.

Like, that's.

And they reject them.

Right. I would. And so you say, oh, you know, I've got this big work meeting and I have to do some prep work, so I can't get to it.

Right.

Like, not tonight.

I could easily feel that sense of disappointment, and that was me being vulnerable. Intimacy is connected to vulnerability.

Or I go to you and I say, oh, my goodness, I just had this awful phone call and I really need to talk about what happened. Like, my friend and I just got into this fight, and you're like, yeah, I want to hear that. Except right now, like, I just promised.

Our little guy that we'd go out.

For a bike ride. And I gotta go. I there.

I There. Could also feel disappointment.

Disappointment is a normal emotion, but it.

Does often show up after we're vulnerable.

And I think something you and I.

Have talked a lot about as well.

Is not managing outcomes.

Yeah.

And that really is about vulnerability.

Yeah.

Is in order.

Go ahead.

So I think this guy for 10 years was trying to manage the outcome, in a way, by him shutting down so he wouldn't feel a disappointment. He'd get mad that she was disappointed. Who knows what he was doing with that? But then the mirror of that was him trying to control it. So it wasn't working probably on both sides for him, which I don't know. The other piece that stood out for me was the 10 years. I can relate to that.

Yeah.

Takes a long time.

Yeah, it does. To kind of bring awareness to some of these patterns.

For sure.

I was thinking about how one of the things that has really helped me.

In feeling disappointment because, like, disappointment is kind of this icky emotion.

Like, we think about our kids. Feeling feels hard, and you need a parent. I know Dr. Becky uses the word sturdy.

Like you need someone in your life to teach you that.

It's like, first to see the emotion.

I see you're disappointed. Oh, I know this feeling. Disappointment. It sucks. Right? You went knocking on.

I'm thinking of my kids.

You went knocking on your buddy's door. He's not home, and you don't know what to do right now.

I'm bored.

I'm bored. You feel disappointed by this right now. It makes sense.

Right? Or, oh, you would really want to.

Get ice cream tonight. And that's not Gonna be possible. I get this disappointment.

So someone has to label this feeling.

For you and teach you it's a normal feeling.

And then the other thing is to, like, teach you how am I going.

To cope through this?

And one of the things I love.

To say, it's been helpful for me as well. That's not what you were expecting?

Yeah, that's a good one.

So I say it to the kids all the time. I've said it to myself.

I like. I say it internally all the time.

That's not what you're expecting?

Yeah, it's very, like.

It's like, oh, okay.

Like, it's compassionate.

It's compassionate. It almost like de. Escalates a little bit. I don't know. That's. To me, it seems like. Okay.

Yeah.

And you see it with the kids sometimes when you say it, that you can almost see their.

Yeah, because I'm validating. I get it, buddy. That's not what you were expecting. You feel disappointment. Disappointment is a normal emotion. Doesn't feel good. Feels icky. Right.

But our job is not to take away from our partners or our kids.

From feeling any of their feelings. Yeah. Cool.

So what would you say to him if he was sitting here?

If he. Oh, that's a good question. Putting me on the spot. If he was here, I would say, how can you allow yourself to be more vulnerable with your wife today?

So tell him. How should he. What can he do?

He could practice sharing his feeling every single day. Once a day. Get the emotion wheel. I love that wheel. It's so good.

We printed it out. I don't know if I've told people, but I printed it out recently and.

Put it on our dining room table. And one night we all went around.

And shared an emotion. So practice sharing one emotion a day.

But then also notice the moments where.

You default to that avoidance path and slow it down.

And then step into the hard thing that you would normally avoid.

And then practice making space for your wife's emotions.

Yeah. Good advice.

Yeah. Okay. Something we do on the podcast every time is we do a 100 questions. So this is my 100 questions to deepen your connection. It's one of our favorite guides that we have. I know so many people have sent me DMs after getting them saying, you know, this was a game changer. We took this on date night. You and I have tested these many times on our date night, and I love these questions. So I'm going to ask you one.

And I don't know, just to be clear.

You don't know what question.

And I say this every time about this guide. It's not just the questions, it's the memories that it evokes. As someone who struggles with memory or slightly aloof with some of this stuff, that's me. And it's the storytelling and the kind of emotions that often some of these questions bring. Not always, but some of them. And that's what I love about it.

All right. I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this one.

I just set myself up for failure.

What is the best piece of advice you have ever been given?

Oh.

It'S very recent. It's very recent. And it's the idea that in relationship with you as my wife, that really it's a privilege that it's a privilege to, to connect with you, to have the good stuff, to have the bad stuff. It's just this like, little reframe that kind of like landed pretty hard.

Makes me tear up a little bit. But I wasn't expecting that.

Yeah, it's a good question.

That's such a good question.

And what's cool about my answer? I think because it's fairly recent, I mean, it's. Yeah, it's not like, oh, you know, happy wife, happy life, you know, or, you know, some of the cliche work related stuff.

Right.

I mean, I could come up with some of that stuff, but.

Yeah, think of it really, really look at relationship as a privilege.

It's the connection.

We forget that.

I think we go through life and we just get so caught up in the minutiae.

And our phones.

And our phones.

We talked a lot about that recently on our trip.

Yeah, just like, just how much.

I mean, we were in these really.

Cool places and people would then be.

On their phones and I had said to you, what is so like, I know there's exceptions. I know you could be getting a call from a sick parent or there's an emergency or that work email. Like I was waiting for work emails too.

I think it's, it's not lost on the audience that you are a creator, spend a lot of time on Instagram. Like, it's not just. You don't want to be a hypocrite. Yeah, that's not it. It's just like, I think we've been talking a lot about it. It's like being strategic about when you're using your phone and you know, it's. I don't know. Yeah, we saw it. It's. It's the, it's the viral picture. I Think I've talked about it before. You know what I'm talking about. Where it's the golf gallery. Watching Tiger Woods.

Yeah.

Kind of at the end of his career. And everyone is watching it through their phone. And there's this one tall old dude with his hands on his hips just watching Tiger in real life, it's. It's. Google it. It's crazy. If you want a symbolism for phone use. Nailed it.

That. I don't mean to derail on this one, but that reminds me of the one for me. I remember I was walking by the park one day, and there was a kid playing. And then I saw this man sitting on one of the structures, and his head, his body was curled down inwards. Okay, so this is a dad.

He's with his kid at the park, I'm assuming. And I'm thinking, oh, this man's having a really hard time. What's happening over there? His head's curled down.

And then as I'm walking further around.

The park, I see he's on his phone.

And again, like, I get it. We get pulled into something. And I also am so cognizant of sometimes our kids are home from work, like, or from school that day, and.

We just have to be connected.

All of the nuances in there.

Okay.

But the piece here that we. I think we lose sometimes is that.

Connection between you and I is so much more powerful.

That man standing at that hole or, like, just absorbing. Wait, I'm losing my words. Yeah, right.

He's just taking it in, and he's there, and he's fully present.

He'll never forget that moment. Right. And then those.

If you can find those moments sitting.

With your partner or at the park with your kid, where you're not distracted by anything else anywhere else, you're just there.

The juxtaposition is all the people around him who are seeing that moment through their phone don't have that memory. They have to go back.

I know.

To their device to find it.

It's.

That's not the same, though. No concerts that I record, and I've tried not to.

Right.

Because how I. For me, I don't go back and watch them. But you see everybody else. We can't.

We can't say that for sure.

But, you know, I see everybody else recording.

I'm like, well, I do love this song. Maybe I'll record it.

So when I was at Taylor Swift last year, I recorded very little. And one of the best moments for me was looking beside me and seeing my daughter's Face light up when Taylor came on stage, like that is like core memory for the rest of my life.

Okay, okay. We're derailed.

So what's. I have to reflect to you? What's best piece of advice you've received?

I.

There are so many little nuggets along my training that I think of. And I go back to actually a.

Moment with a client.

Interesting.

And because of course, as a therapist, I'm always working through my own themes in my life. I don't. Don't get to not have stuff that.

Shows up in my life.

And in this particular season, I remember.

Feeling just like such a failure in motherhood and trying to juggle all these things in life.

And a client sitting in front of me was almost like me, you know.

15 years previous to me in that moment.

And she was struggling with perfectionism, struggling.

With feeling like a failure. And so then she came in with this quote and she said the quote is to fail, fail again, fail better. And I hadn't heard that before. It's also a book title now by Pima Chaudhran. And I just thought, okay, that's what this is all about. I can allow myself to fail.

I'm not going to get it perfect. I'm going to come to you and share something really hard with you and.

It might not work out that time.

I'm going to try it again.

I'm gonna do it differently.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Yeah.

I've always believed in like.

Learning from your mistakes. Like saying like too many times. Right. I've always. It's one of the best training I've had in my careers. Make mistakes. It's a little bit smaller scale than that.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Good question.

Okay.

Today, see the stories it tells. See, we got derailed because of the question.

You're right.

And we went back to this. Like, we went from advice to Tiger woods and I. And the guy was drinking a Bud Light, I think. Free plug. Do you know what I mean? See? See?

Yes.

I love that.

So grab the guide.

Okay. Thanks, love. I love that.

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We are going to talk about mental.

Load and vacations and mental load is such a big conversation.

We're going to tackle a small little.

Piece here to help you prepare for this summer.

If you're taking a vacation, if you're going away or maybe you're just having a staycation or whatever's going on for you this summer, right?

Plans, summer plans, plan something.

And I was actually reflecting about our own journey around taking vacations and the mental load and oh, I don't know if you remember our first trip away together.

Bits and pieces, bits and pieces.

So I had, I'm pretty sure I booked the flights, I planned all the things. We each packed our own stuff. This is pre kids, pre marriage and we're so excited. We arrived to the beach and you pull out your sunscreen and it is.

Surprised it made it.

It is. All you packed was this one bottle of sunscreen that was probably about 150ml of sunscreen for a full week on a beach.

Sounds about right.

And I remember in that moment probably wasn't a conscious thought, but at some level I was thinking, wow, I'm so glad I brought three bottles of sunscreen with varying degrees of SPF in it for us. But that also I think contributed to then one of our other trips. So fast forward several years, two kids and we go on Our first family of four trip again.

I did everything at that point.

Most.

Most. Okay, I did most. I booked it. I was on the phone with the other family's mother. We booked together.

I was.

Did all the travel agent stuff for both of our families. Got the passport numbers.

True, that's true.

Got the bag. So we're, we're there, we're at the pool. We have arrived. We have a one and a three year old.

Oh, shit. I think you know, I know where you're going with this.

And you say, did you pack enough swim diapers? And in that moment I remember thinking, are you kidding me? We are already in another country and now you're asking about the swim diapers. And I think that week continued to go. It just showed some of the common themes that we were struggling with around the mental load, which was around you.

Saying, just tell me how to help.

That was a com.

Like a thing that you used to say, just tell me how to help.

I'm happy to help. Which for people who aren't aware of, maybe what's problematic in that statement is that that statement again puts me in.

The manager, CEO role.

And there's something else I want to say about that. But just the. I knew where everything was. I knew everything we had packed, I.

Had carried it all.

So that was quite heavy. So now fast forward now again several.

Years, this trip we just recently took, we went to Spain and it was so different from how we did it.

I think there's a lot of lessons learned.

Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, all that's true. I think in fairness, not just to me, I think there's a bit of more of an empowerment that's come out of kind of even labeling the mental load, talking about it. It's become a hot topic.

I'll just say it. Mostly women are no longer just putting up and dealing with it. They're. They're expecting more from the relationship and from their partner when it comes to this stuff. So I think, I think the expectations have changed a bit too.

Absolutely.

So us dudes have to get our shit together.

Yeah. And this conversation is so tricky because.

It'S not to say that what you do, it's not.

It's so.

It's so interesting to walk around because everybody's going to have their own context.

And situation around so much nuance and like.

But when we validate one person, it's.

Not to say that someone else's experience is not real.

We want to make space for all experiences.

But ultimately our goal in a relationship is co creation.

And what's going to work for one.

Person might not work for someone else.

And whenever I talk about the mental load with couples, we are not trying.

To go to 50, 50.

That's key.

That was a game changer.

For me to acknowledge that as well.

In our relationship is that it will never be equal.

We'll never be 50 50.

There are going to be some things where you're carrying more and there are.

Going to be times where I'm carrying more on something else and accepting that.

And instead of trying to go for.

Equal and 5050 and instead going for fair was a big game changer.

Yeah, I think that's really important because particularly maybe from a guy's perspective, okay, well it's gotta be 50 50. I don't, I, you know, I don't know where all this stuff is. I'm not like, it just doesn't make sense. It's gonna take me five times as long to do it. That doesn't make sense. Right. That's trying to be 5050 versus versus the fair piece. Like I think sitting down and talking about what, what are strengths and weaknesses are. So then you can plan together and come up with a game plan with which will allow you to make it fair, but not necessarily 5050 and to lean into some of those strengths. So if, if one person is very organized and more detail oriented, maybe they booked the things or has been there before. Whatever the case is.

I was thinking about how to make this conversation useful. And I know that there are sometimes this struggle around. Like one of the top questions I get is how do I get my.

Partner to understand what the mental load is?

And so even when we think about a vacation, let's go into the fair play method and what Eve Rotsky talks about just as a framework to start. So in a vacation there are all of these different tasks that need to happen. Packing, planning, organize like all the things.

Right.

Whatever task it is, if it's packing the clothes or if it's booking the.

Places, Every task has a CPE element to it.

C conceptualization.

P Planning.

E execution. And oftentimes what we know is that men come in and do a lot of the execution. But if a woman only offloads the execution, she's more at risk to feel resentful towards her partner because she's carrying.

The bulk of that.

Still.

Still.

Yeah, that's key.

So the example of booking flights, for example, Conceptualization. Well, when are we going to take this time? I need to message all the family members. I need to Check our calendars, planning, doing all the things within that. Right. And then if I say to you, okay, now go book our flights, here's. Make sure you use this point card or whatever.

That's five minutes.

It takes five minutes. And I've just spent days, weeks, months planning this.

Yeah, interesting.

So I think that is a really important piece when it comes to talking about vacations. And we recognize that there are all these tasks. So again, then, the task of packing is not just about making. Putting everything in a suitcase. It's about making a list and making sure, well, we. We did this. What are the bathing suit sizes? Does last season still fit this season?

What kind of floaty toys might we.

Want to take with us?

How are we in sunscreen levels? What we. Right. So there's all this conceptualization and planning around that. So when it comes to vacation, you need to recognize that the mental load.

Doesn'T go on vacation.

It doesn't just disappear because it's still also there with you throughout the vacation.

Yeah, that. This is before. You're just talking about the before.

We're just talking about it before, but throughout.

Right.

And then I think the other thing for people to recognize is that the.

Patterns that you have in your partnership.

Don'T just go away.

They don't go on vacation either.

They don't go on vacation. They're heightened.

Yeah, we know that.

Yeah, for sure.

And I'm. I'm even thinking about this. This couple that I worked with that would talk about how even at the airport, they would get into this fight because of their different approaches to managing.

The airport lines, et cetera.

But, but because, true, I get it.

It's a stressful situation. Right. And then you've got your two little kids being like, what are we doing here?

Take off my shoes.

I want to leave my hat on. Like, no, you have to default. These aren't my rules. Just put your stuff in the bin.

Right.

And actually, if I think about our vacation, something that we did a little bit different this time compared to those previous times, is that you.

Hang on.

Not you.

But I. I felt this internal shift.

Inside of me, and I did say.

It to you at some point in the trip, and I checked in with you because I wanted to make sure it was okay. But here we were. It was kind of the end of the, like the beach day. We were feeling hot. It was pre dinner.

That's what it was.

We hadn't found a dinner place yet, and we were going to the grocery store first.

Or was it. Yeah.

Anyways, and it was a grocery store that we hadn't been to yet. And you're on the phone and you're trying to navigate the direction and the kids are like, it's hot. I need water, my shoes, my feet. Right.

Like, you know, kids doing their kids thing.

And I'm at the back walking behind the kids and you're at the front and I see the phone like up and you move around.

I was getting frustrated and I was.

Irritable and I didn't put it outwards though, because this was me stepping back.

And allowing you to take up more space and navigating some of this stuff.

Okay, so that's a smaller example. Just going to the grocery store versus like some of the. Some of the bigger things. I think what I as I was hearing you explain it, it's like, that's.

A micro moment of like the whole.

Representation of the whole trip though.

Yeah. The execution piece is kind of the easy part, eh, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

Okay, so tell me what makes you say that?

Well, again, I can book the flights online. That's fine. I can. What was the next example you said.

In terms of like, like the packing, like to physically put the stuff in the suitcase.

Yes.

That's mindless. I can do that. So it's, it's interesting that and I feel like, not to stereotype too bad, but that's where probably a lot of the dudes come in and like execute. But really that's just contributing. Like not contributing, but perpetuating probably some of the female or partner resentment mental load.

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Which comes to one of the next common questions that I get, which is why do I have to micromanage my partner? Why don't they just know what I know already? And the reality in a relationship is that you are two different people. You come from two different upbringings.

Totally.

And also different socializations. We see in our children where our daughter now is more likely to be.

In the kitchen with us. She's kind of more curious about that. Whereas our son kind of likes to be reading his books or playing with his cars or whatever in his room.

Like, there's, you know, there's. It's not an all or nothing kind of thing.

But I notice more.

Yeah.

Of some of these things were.

Yeah. I was just gonna say it's. It's a little bit of hubris to expect your partner to just do everything the same as you.

Absolutely.

Like, that's. Yes.

And there's up learning. And we need to be. We need to be willing to allow.

Our partners to learn up with us.

Which means maybe it's about sitting together.

Actually, this is something that I wish more couples did.

So here you are. Vacation's coming up in a week or so, two weeks. Sit down together and talk about what is the running list in your mind. Write it all down on a piece of Paper and then looking at the list, maybe talk about strengths and weaknesses. Who's got the strength to go to the store and stay on track and.

Buy all the things.

It's not. And also, by the way, it's not okay for one person to say you do everything better. No, that's not going to work. Like, you need to kind of divide this together. But then helping your partner to see, like, well, we need to check this ahead of time. Or there's. If I'm ordering new bathing suits, there's a lag between when I click order to when it arrives. And if you. If that doesn't work, then you need to go to the store beforehand to.

Make sure we have this item.

So there's all of these things. And again, that question of, why do.

I have to do this? Why do I have to teach my partner this?

This is about helping each other learn things together. That's what we do in relationships.

And it's a choice. You can do nothing and, like, just keep on with the status quo or.

It sucks, but you kind of have to sometimes drag them along. But I believe if you explain some of this stuff to them, I think most rational people, like, when you use that CPE example, it's kind of like, it's kind of a workflow, almost like it makes a lot of sense versus.

Just like there's going to be someone.

Listening that says, I'm so tired of having to explain everything to him.

And I.

And I'm sure there's many.

So what do we do?

This is where you come in.

Hey, Doc.

I mean, I don't know. It's. I don't know. But how are you explaining? Like, okay, I get that you're tired of explaining, but how are you doing that? Are you breaking it out? Are you just doing it the same way over and over again and getting pissed off? They're still not doing it. Like, I bet there's a lot of that.

Yeah, for sure. And I think I did that with you early on as well. I'd say, like, don't forget the diapers. And then you grab a few diapers and put it in the bag and then you leave. Right. But I had already packed the diaper bag. Instead of then being able to sit down and talk about, like, here's what I do when I'm leaving the house with a diaper bag, or here's what really helps, baby, when we're out doing this. And at the same time, and I know sometimes you don't.

Like, this expression is letting our Partners fail and struggle a little bit.

Totally.

Which is. And you experienced that one time. I did not pack the diaper bag. And you did not have all the items to help you through that doctor's.

Appointment where you're waiting in the waiting room forever.

I think that's really key. It's natural consequence. Right. We do with our kids, like.

And you had to learn a bit of it. Right.

But then you can't be pissed off if I come home. One can't be pissed off if they come home and it's a disaster because they didn't take all the stuff. She almost be kind of happy. Like, oh, maybe I'll get it next time.

So that. That is then the backlash that also comes out is from men. I hear this from men.

Is.

Well, I did. I took baby to. I'll use our example. I've shared this in the podcast before. Other podcast appearances I've been on is the time that I let you struggle.

With the diaper bag.

But then when you come home, here's what I remind myself. You're both safe.

You both got through it, and you had a chance to uplearn all that I already know.

Rather than me stepping into the nagging, micromanaging role.

If I never give you that chance to learn.

And I wrote this actually about the vacation piece for Mental Load. It's about remembering it's not going to be perfect.

Yeah.

Were there things that weren't packed? Were they the necessaries?

No.

Right. Did something get forgotten? Sure. Did it take longer to find that grocery store?

Sure.

Yeah.

It doesn't have to be perfect, though. And our partners are not going to.

Do it the way we do it. And that, I think, is a really important piece.

Yeah. That was. I think that's kind of what I was getting at earlier, too. I think we're talking about it in, like, these gender roles, but it could be the reverse. Right. Maybe in another hetero relationship. The dudes, the planner and. And the. The wife's the moral aloof. You know, I just want to flag that too. Or whatever.

Laissez faire.

That kind of goes along with it.

Yeah.

Maybe whatever the gender is, it's about the people.

So then the piece that comes with this is communicating expectations. So again, weekly meetings, checking in with each other. Regularly checking in and not making it personal.

Right.

On vacation, being able to check in with each other.

Hey, how are we doing so far?

Are you getting your needs met?

Am I getting my needs met?

That's where resentment breeds, is where you hope your partner Will notice that you need time on your own and then the end of the vacation arrives and you never got it. Instead of at the beginning saying while we're on vacation, I would like to prioritize this while. And what would you like to prioritize? What is it that you like? Are you hoping to have this vacation where we're out doing something every single moment or are you hoping for vacation where we get to ebb and flow and relax?

Go with the flow here, Jim.

Because when we don't communicate expectations, we.

Set ourselves up for disappointments.

I think why these kind of check ins are even maybe more important for vacations because I can picture you or me kind of in these new places, different language, not sure where to go. Yes to vacation. But there's these new kind of externalities that cause some stress. So it's even more important to the. Everyone's kind of on the same page beforehand with expectations about how it's going to go and flexibility and timing. Like you know, if you're one that's really like punctual and you know, things have to be just so, but yet you're in a new place, maybe looking at transport and all this kind of stuff that's totally out of your control.

There's more compassion needed in these stressful moments.

Instead of kind of getting into that righteous indignation of like, well I did all these things and so you should be doing something else.

Right.

I'm even thinking about something that you.

And I kept saying to each other.

Also helped our kids. We're new here, we've never done this before.

Or if it's a vacation.

Yeah, right. Which is so powerful but.

Or if it's a place that you go every summer. Being able to say this is a.

Change in our routine. We're trying to figure this out. But I also want to offer listeners.

Something that you could do in the.

Heat of the moment.

You, you're standing in the security line at the airport. You're in the car ride and car is a good one. I mean unfortunately I didn't tell you based on the GPS like what one to go down and then we went, you know, like that's a moment.

Yeah.

These are all these moments or extended family. Something happens and the most important thing.

Is to remember it's you against the problem.

Yeah.

And so being able to then say.

To your partner, so just tuck this one away.

This is.

We are on the same team.

Shoulder to shoulder against the problem.

Yes, we are on the same team.

The problem is in front of Us, we're on the same team. We've been awake since 3am it makes.

Sense to feel tired like this. We are on the same team. This is us in this together.

And I just, I just love that reminder, which is a nice segue into something else around vacations that I think.

Is important for us to talk about. Actually two pieces.

One, I want to make sure we emphasize when it comes to dealing with mental load vacations first. Remember when you're traveling with kids, it's.

Not a vacation, it's a relocation.

The stresses with the kids are still there. You're still, you're still parenting.

Yeah.

Parenting does not.

And your relationships cycles.

And your relationship cycles are still travels with you. But you also want to remember how important autonomy is and that's about taking time for you. It doesn't have to be this three hour long thing that you get away.

With, but maybe it's a 15 minute something somewhere along the way.

Yeah. Or many times along the way. Walks, whatever.

Walks are always my go to thing.

Sure.

Yeah. And then the last piece I want.

To talk about was planning these vacations with family because our families, I know a lot of people will be traveling.

To see family this summer.

Often do.

Yeah, often do. And those old patterns can really show up for sure.

Family or friends. Like people outside your nuclear family, right?

Yes, absolutely.

But particularly family.

I think so. I think then it's important for couples to remember that I like to say this, you've heard me say this many times, is that families are predictable and consistent. So if you are visiting the summer.

Beach house and all the families together.

But grandma always makes a comment about so and so's eating habits. You can prepare for that.

Totally.

You know that that's going to come if it's happened in the last five visits.

Yeah.

So what you can do then is.

You and your partner again, in a.

Way this is a mental load item because it's not this you holding this all inside of yourself, planning on what.

You'Re going to say. This is you and your partner being on the same team.

Yeah. Because when you hold it in, it like builds it up and it's almost like elicits conflict versus just being prepared and having your boundary or whatever you're gonna say and you move on.

Right.

Less stress for you.

Yeah. So you and your partner again. So when you go to your partner.

This is not about you saying your mother always does this and you need.

To make her change.

Because the reality is we don't make others change.

We can't force Someone to change.

And we have to then decide what our boundaries are going to be together. And so going to your partner and saying, hey, have you noticed that this is a pattern that's happened before? Or you know, that one uncle that always does the something. How should we address it this time?

How can we be on the same page?

Yeah. The preparation, the predictable and consistent piece.

Is key and I think even just being mindful to maybe wrap up. But the other piece here is if we know what our stressful points are ahead of time, we can also plan for that.

Yeah, absolutely. As a couple. Yeah.

And that can be part of this. And again, I know it's so hard.

When people.

People fight up against me when I say, do you have a weekly check in? Do you meet with your partner about these things? Oh, no, no, we don't do that. It doesn't go over well or it's too formal or. Yeah, you know, you don't have to make it.

It goes off the rails.

It just, it's just this invitation to have a conversation with your partner.

Yeah.

About what's coming up, how you can do it together, what are your desires, what do you need?

Because it is kind of a like, you know, you're so busy doing this list for the vacation. What if you did a list for the mental load? Like a pre trip mental load, emotional relational list?

For sure, that's a good idea. I think the other thing too is like, I think people probably feel a lot of pressure around vacations, especially with the extended family stuff, because they want it to be just so. If you do this prep, it's really gonna allow you to, whether it's a boundary or whatever the case would be, allow it to unfold in a way that you hope to versus going in, like clenching your fists and like being on edge the whole time. It almost detracts from your, your vacation. Your vacation. Totally.

I know.

And again, you can't control how other people are going to react. But if you come in prepared.

Well, I think there's a very real element that for a lot of people, they carry such a heavy mental load that then they're so stressed and exhausted by the time they get to vacation.

Or even the end of vacation, they.

Get home and they're like, I need.

A vacation from my vacation.

And so if we view this as a little bit more of a prevention, this is a support in place then to help you get to a different experience for your vacation. Let me close out our conversation today thinking of what we talked about at the beginning around Disappointments that even on vacation, the cycle, feelings, all of this still comes up. We don't get vacations from life experiences. And perhaps one of the most important things for us to do then is. Is to recognize that we all get.

To have our experiences.

We're not responsible for everybody else's experience.

And that when you can remember to be on the same team with your.

Partner, to be relational, that can change how it goes.

Would you say that about kids too? Like, you're. You're not. You're not responsible for the kids experience, even though, like, we kind of are.

Like, we don't know how they're gonna necessarily react.

How can I be responsible for someone else's experience?

I hear you, but when you say your kids, it's like a different. It's interesting. It's a bit of a wrinkle.

Well, I mean, so I talked about.

This with friends about that first meal after traveling, and that was a doozy. And I remember going to bed that first night having an existential crisis, which sounds ridiculous, but really thinking of, like, why are we doing this? It felt so hard.

And it was really validating to hear from my friends that they're like, oh.

Yes, first meal in a new country is always a disaster. And we're so privileged to have this experience.

Yeah, Reiterate that. Yeah.

But the piece here, though, is.

I.

Don'T get to control the feelings my.

Children have, but I can walk beside them and help them build resilience through whatever experience they're having. So there's kind of this, like, nuance in this. Like, am I responsible? Like, if I'm.

I'm a responsible parent, but I can't control their emotional reaction.

It just made me think too, because even on vacation, parents like to keep their kids busy and doing the things and. But what if it's not going well? Like, are they taking on that. Those feelings? And can imagine many do.

Yeah.

That could probably derail the vacation quickly.

So we make space for all feelings. And just because your kids are having a hard time does not make it a bad vacation. It does not make you a not enough parent. It means that this experience for your.

Child is a hard one, but you.

Ride through it and then you come home and you've all learned something.

And if you can prepare better by using your cp, not yours.

But I think it's the fair play.

Cpe.

Cpe.

Yeah.

If you can do a lot of that stuff in advance, it's gonna make you more resilient to some of this stuff. Maybe with the kids or stuff not going exactly as planned because you've not wasted all this energy on the before should.

Right?

And circling back to that, though, I.

Started to, I have started to talk.

About this with the kids in that way. So I gave them a list of.

Items to pack this time. And I had talked about even the conceptualizing piece of you might think about, oh, you're going to wear that dress to school today, but you want to.

Put that in your suitcase and we're leaving tomorrow, so what might happen then? Right?

There was some pieces in there, little nuggets giving more responsibility to them.

Yeah, they're at the age though.

But yeah, that can start early though. A three year old can pick out.

Their favorite shirt to wear.

That's true.

All right, cool. Thanks for this conversation with me. For those listening, thank you for clicking Play and joining us here. One of the best ways that you.

Can help support the podcast is to leave me review.

Click the stars. I read all the reviews. Click subscribe.

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Podcast and I'm grateful that you're here with us. So we will see you next week. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this.

Information is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider.