Dating Advice For Men Part 1 with Elizabeth Stone & Robert Dunn

Hey, what's going on, guys? Welcome to the Orion Group Podcast. I'm your host, Robert Dunn, and I'm here. It is Wednesday night, right? We didn't change it till Thursday. So that's how I know the days of the week is when I'm doing shows with Elizabeth.

I like to mark time with my presence, Robert. That's very flattering.

You like that? See, uh, I should add that in my dating tips.

But— The sun rises and sets with Elizabeth. Oh, that's—

Exactly. She can't—

I mean, come on now. Wednesdays aren't the same without you.

All right, that's cold. But, uh, yeah, thank you guys all for tuning in, man. We really appreciate it. Uh, as you should already know, I have Miss Elizabeth Stone on tonight, and, uh, we are going to be discussing— or even discussing, really, I'm going to give my dating tips that I promised last time around.

I'm super excited about it too. Like, it's been 2 years and I've never been able to drag this out of him. 2 years, everybody. I'm so excited.

I know. I was like, now it's a lot of pressure now. But yeah, she finally did it. She finally got it out of me.

I didn't mean to make it into a horrible buildup. It's just that I've been giving dating tips like every time, like so much that people are probably tired of it. But, but the point is that I'm really excited to hear yours.

All right. Well, I'm glad somebody's excited. And the only person I, I can hear right now is you. So that's all that matters. All right. But yeah, you can go to our website, theoriongrouppodcast.com. You can check out our stuff there. But, uh, without further ado, yes, uh, like I said, I haven't really— I don't really do this, man. You know, I'm really kind of against it personally. I don't know why. I don't know why I'm such a—

Is it that you're against giving the advice or that you're against solidifying the advice?

That's a good question. I'm not sure. I should have to think about that, to be honest. I'm actually not sure. It's actually a really good question. Um, if I just were just to put it out there, I don't know, I probably would just say that I'm against probably solidifying it.

Yeah, that's what I suspected.

Yeah, I guess I, I don't know, I guess when you've been exposed to a lot, you know, when you're just starting out, you just, you think you know everything, you know.

Yes, I remember. It was really great.

And so I've been fortunate to have been exposed to a lot and a lot of different people, a lot of different things. And so I guess I'm just extremely— I've always been hesitant because, like I said, once you see something work and it's not supposed to work but it does, like, what do you do with that, right?

Right.

Or you see things that, you know, you see a different type of situations, you see people— it worked for people in a lot of different ways, and you see it fail for people in a lot of different ways. And sure, there are consistencies that are common, but most of those pretty much are pretty much out there. And I thought most of the stuff was common sense. But nevertheless, there are some things that I did think about, and I do think about consistently when it comes to this kind of thing. And it's not that I don't want to take responsibility for it, but at the same time, I'm just really— I don't say I think about it so differently or come at it so differently, but I'm just You know, cautious about how I, how I go about things. I've been burned so many times by just thinking I knew something, right? And then you get exposed to a different, you know, someone doing it differently, and then you see certain things work or whatever the case may be.

So, uh, yeah, me too, me too. Well, I was noticing today, literally today, I was writing about, um, I'm creating the, you know, my next, my next version of my program, right? And I noticed how hesitant I was to put anything into like a solid format, which is why I asked you the question. Because before, you know, after, you know, years ago when I got started, I was like, oh, gung-ho about like, you know, 10 reasons why. And so, you know, and I still occasionally write things like that. But the point is that you're right. And with experience, it all gets a little bit more fuzzy and a little bit more— You know, it's like once somebody turns expert, they become a little bit more gray about everything. And I've seen that in myself too. So I see why you're like this, because in the beginning it's like, well, black and white here. Yeah, this is it. And then you learn more and realize that there's actually a lot of situations out there that really are, you know, can't be explained or whatever, like you mentioned.

Right, exactly. And so But yeah, but net, I'm gonna attempt. I guess this is more for the fellas, obviously. I can't really, but at the same time, really what I the the way I decided to approach this was really what I've learned from women, and not necessarily learned from women from the standpoint of asking their advice, but just seeing how women over the years in so many different situations what Just what's consistent, what stands out. No matter who I was talking to, no matter who I was dealing with, no matter what race, culture, part of the country, there's certain things that did stand out. And obviously through my own personal experience, my own personal life with kind of what I've seen growing up and all of that, all of that's thrown into this. And so it was really, I did take some time to really think about this. Actually, we had kind of 2 weeks since we had last week off for Thanksgiving, so it actually did give me some time because at first I kind of just wrote down some stuff, but then I was like, wait a minute. So I got a chance to kind of go back and really think about it. And so these are the few things that I jotted down that I would want if I could say anything. These are probably what I would say. All right, I'm just building up that anticipation.

I'm so excited. Yeah, like a kid on Christmas.

All right, well, I won't have you waiting anymore. So the first, um, before actually, you know, I don't even say first because really what this is, is before I would even talk to guys about women, I would talk to them about purpose. Uh, I think for men and for us, uh, as even boys going into men, I think before you even really start talking about bringing a woman into your life, I think you have to have something that anchors you. That isn't a woman. Because there's a lot of reasons for this. But more than anything, it's that because the way we're wired and because of the way we're built and because what— and what women find attractive in us, it's, it's important for us to stay balanced in a way that is very hard to do without having something, some What do I always say? Um, something that we're trying to produce.

Right, like an overriding goal.

Like an overriding goal. Something that is— that takes our gifts, our talents, our energy, and places it into something that actually gives back to us, right? Something that we can put into the world, something that we can put into, uh, ourselves that represents who we are. All right.

Identity.

And this is why you can see so many men get really thrown off and really tore up when they do lose a job or something like that. But really what I'm talking about is not necessarily a job. Uh, I think there's a difference between job and work because you can—

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. You can be fired from a job.

All right. Right. Absolutely.

But you can never be fired from your work. You can never fire Tiger Woods.

Right. You can't fire me. You can't.

You're right. You can't fire Elizabeth. Right. You can't. I mean, one of you can, but Not the world can't fire me, right?

You can't, because I love it, because it's the job, you know, it's the thing, it's the work, right?

It's the thing, it's the work, it's the purpose, it's the reason why, right? It's, it's what has your— everyone talks about find your passion, find your passion, but I think it's— I don't necessarily like that just because I think that rides more on emotion.

And right, and it sounds very Like you could just decide that you are passionate about something else, or, you know, you—

All right, because you're gonna be passionate about different things, you know, over the course of a lifetime. Right, right.

But purpose really does kind of sum it up.

It does, um, because you're not gonna love everything about what your, what your purpose is, you know. You're not— it's not always gonna be great. It's not always going to be, uh, you know, amazing. You're not always going to enjoy all the different elements of it. But overall, it gives something to you that is priceless, right? That sense, uh, that there's nothing that can give you that sense of self-worth than being able to have, uh, something that you can call your own, something that your gifts and your talents and your personality fit.

Yeah.

And never underestimate the power of finding something that fits you. You know, I'm not talking about something that you just love or say you're passionate about, but a fit. Oh my gosh, I don't know. I could just start talking about that forever because it's like that when you put that key in that lock and it fits perfectly, like that click, right? There's nothing like finding where you fit. There's nothing like not having to apologize for not, you know, always being misunderstood or having to hide certain elements of your personality because it just doesn't work with the environment that you're in. No, I'm talking about finding that place that like you truly feel like you were born to do this because everything about you seems to promote whatever that thing is.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I could, I could clap to that description of it. But it's so hard when you don't have that in your life, because it really does seem like a meaningless slog to nowhere without that. But also, you know, people can sabotage themselves when they're worried that they don't, you know, they aren't doing their purpose. So we don't want to make you feel bad if you haven't found it yet. But the thing about The purpose for a man, I think, is that the danger is that you'll make your purpose into your relationship instead, and then it will creep over there and it will end up being your relationship, and then you'll end up very much in trouble.

And that's what a lot of men do. And it's, it's really a supplement. And that's what we do, because when men were inherently built to almost need that purpose-like thing in our life, Right.

Oh yeah, because you need a goal. The masculine energy without a goal is just a very, very dangerous thing, right?

We're always trying to produce a result, and that doesn't shut off just because we don't find that thing. And so if we don't find it, it's not like, okay, we can just, you know, put that, you know, part of us in dormant mode. We're just gonna make that into something else. And a lot of times we'll do that with women, right?

Yeah, just a lot of women, addictions, other things.

Absolutely.

Right.

It's very— the most dangerous man on the planet is just a man without purpose. Because like Elizabeth just said, you have all this energy that you're gonna have to do something with. You're going to put it somewhere. What did Einstein say? Energy doesn't get destroyed or created, it just gets manipulated. Just moves, right? It just changes. It doesn't— you know, it's always going to be there. Something is going to happen to it. So As men, we learn real quick that if it doesn't, you know, our energy is going to go somewhere. I'll just keep it PG-13, right?

It's true. It's very true. And if you center your energy on your relationship, it will not last.

No, because women—

We would love it if you did. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm certainly not knocking having a very relationship-centered life. I'm a big fan of that. But when it comes to being fulfilled as a man, Um, you need a purpose.

Yes, absolutely. There's just— it's— I just don't think you'll ever really be able to be, uh, the man you need in your relationships in general, not just with your woman, but with just the people in your life in general. I don't know if, like, guys understand this because we know what it's like to have men in our lives who don't have that, right? And you see how different it is and how different, uh, the, the nature of the, of the relationship is. And so this is just such an important thing when you're talking about— because what it means to be a man, and that's such a big question or such a big, you know, statement, and I don't know, I don't really understand how people can feel like they can answer that. But if there's any starting ground, if there's any base, if there's any foundational thing that we need to have as men, is to be able to have a reason, a why. We need to have a why. We need to know why we're doing what we are doing. And again, that could be really good for family. And a lot of the things men have done over the centuries has been for their family. So like Elizabeth was just saying, having your relationship being a big part of who you are, it's not inherently a bad thing. Men have gone to war to protect their families, right? And so it's not that that cannot be something very motivating and very healthy. But ultimately, you as a man are going to need that, that thing for you that's just for you, that, that gives you, that overrides everything else, because things are going to fall and rise around you at all times regardless. But to have something that's stable, I think is so important for a man to have. That stability is so important because we are stability. Our job is to bring stability when it's healthy. ways. When we're healthy, we bring stability into situations, right?

Yes.

Women feel safe when her man is stable. Now, stability might not necessarily be attractive to women when you're, you know, 13, 14 years old, because stability can be boring.

Right, right.

So it's not, it's not attractive at all stages. But believe me, fellas, when the stages that it is attractive, it's very attractive. And stability is something that you have to To represent almost at a certain stage of your life or a certain level of maturity, and the best way to to begin that stability not only you know because you need emotional stability, you need sexual stability, you need stability in a lot of different ways. But the best place to start is stability within your identity. All right, it's I can't stress this enough. You need to have stability in your identity because men are not valuable. What we can't use, what we're not stable in, right?

Right.

Uh, whatever. Like, I don't care what you're good at. I only care what you can do consistently. That's all. That's the only thing we can use.

That was so quotable. That's so good. All right.

Um, so yeah, write that down if you need to, but I can't use any— we keep— as men, we can't— we— that's maturity for us. is stability. If you needed to keep it on the most simplest form possible that every guy listening can understand— consistency. Any area in your life that you're not consistent in is, is not valuable to you or to anybody else. All right.

And you cannot polarize feminine chaos energy if you can't be stable.

Right, right.

Because feminine energy is chaos energy. So you have to think about it like you are, you know, becoming the catalyst for something that is absolutely not going to make sense to you. So you better, you better have your mind on straight.

And even women instinctually will test your stability.

Yeah, absolutely. Because we can't afford to have you go off the deep end and try to kill us because you will overpower us most of the time. So we need that kind of stability. And we, you know, if, if, um, when we don't mean to tell— I'm not— when, when Robert says we will test you, we will test you. But it's not like we sit down and have a council of elders who decides to test you. No, we just do it instinctually.

Right.

Because we'll see, you know, can we be inconsistent and you still act consistent? You know, can we be— can we like test your limits or push you? What will you do? How will you act? Because I don't want to find, you know, 25 calls from the middle of the night because I didn't respond to you in the certain perfect way. And I wake up to just an onslaught because then I know you're unstable.

For the pickup artist community, it's— this is what shit tests are.

Yeah, back to the Reddit discussion last week. But it's not that we set out— the thing that people get a little bit messed up about this is that it's not that we set out to test you. It's that we naturally do it and just to see what you're like. And, you know, we don't say like, let's torture the guy. We don't like sit up at night, you know, scheming. It's just that when we find out that you are not what we thought you are, that is very, very—

Painful.

bad for us. It's bad for us biologically, it's bad for us socially. And so we need you to maintain a certain level of stability in order for there to be a relationship at all. Otherwise, the container will close.

Absolutely. Oh man, you said so much right there that I just—

I gotta— Well, because from, from our standpoint, it's not safe to create children with you or to create a relationship with you or to continue to show up for you and stay in our feminine if we have to go into our masculine to rescue you.

Right.

Because we can't act feminine. So you can't go into your feminine and become really, really inconsistent and then get the benefit of us staying in our feminine, which is just the world. So one thing that people don't understand when they get all weird and flaky is that if she can't respect you, she can't stay in her inner feminine. If she starts to disrespect you, that means she goes into her masculine to take care of it.

Oh God. And every guy knows exactly. I mean, if you're over the age of 15, you've dealt at least with one woman who either stopped respecting you or you've had to be around a woman who doesn't respect you. And it's, again, like Elizabeth said, it's not so much You know, it's not necessarily a conscious thing. You know, it's not, it's not so much that it's intentional, they're consciously intentionally trying to, you know, behave a certain way towards you. But there's so many evolutionary reasons why she needs to know that you are who you say you are, or what she believes you are. Right?

Yes.

And when a woman doesn't respect you, exactly, she immediately, you know, when a woman doesn't respect you, because her femininity goes away immediately.

Yeah. And she— because she has to go into her masculine to protect herself. We all have both, everybody. So if she has to go into her masculine to protect herself, you're not going to get that feminine that you enjoy.

And so this is why, again, this is so important that before you start talking to guys about women, you have to start talking about guys about their own identity. And you got to start talking to them about their own value, and what's important to them and where to put that energy and how to make it into something. Because we've seen men— I mean, when men put that energy towards good things, they can get out of any situation time and time again. Every year, like the NFL Draft every year, and you hear the same story about this kid in a terrible, horrible, you know, growing up environment, but yet is now in the NFL. Why? Because if you can get that energy pointed towards the right direction, it can do— we, you know, we can do that. Masculine energy can, can really create a world, and it has.

Right. And that's— yeah, that's exactly what creates.

But at the same time, you see the same story pointed towards the other way. And you could say the same guy who can be an NFL player can also be a professional criminal. It just depends where he's going to decide to put that energy. And so if we— and I know a lot of the ways we try to get men to redirect that energy towards a good way is a lot of times it's very unsuccessful because If, if men don't have other men telling them how to do this, because what happens a lot of times that women ultimately have to start taking on that role. And because that, again, living in the masculine energy is not something a woman wants to do consistently or is really built to do consistently, it's going to be very hard for her to relate to you in a way that, that, that you need to be related to. The feminine and the masculine are both important, but they both have different roles, right?

Yes.

And so for, for men, because again, there's so many things that you grow up as a man and you, you learn so much from— well, if you had a dad, but if you didn't have a dad, you just learn from the guys around you, right? And the older guys that you're around. And so depending on what you get in that bubble, it can determine so much in a guy's life. Because there's just certain things he's not going to be able to talk to women about. There's certain things he can't talk to his mom about. There's certain things that he doesn't understand about himself that the only place to go is to see other men who are, you know, dealing with the same thing. And this isn't something we do obviously, you know, there's no age group that I can point you to like, yeah, you know, I'm sure maybe, you know, child psychologists could break it down, but it's just, there's just certain moments throughout a guy's life where certain things are important to him and knowing how to manage that. If there isn't a male role model there too who understands what he's going through, then it's— it can be very dangerous. And men get— men are dangerous because we have to do something with this energy, right? So it's— I want you to not look at men from a standpoint of the testosterone, the way it looks from the outside, as much as that it's just energy. That's all it is. And if we can direct it towards certain things, then again, we can build the Taj Mahal or we can build a prison, but we're going to build one of them.

Right. You're going to compete, conquer, and control something. Right.

Something is going to be conquered. Something is going to be controlled. And so, yeah. Um, so yeah, that would be my first, uh—

So purpose is number one.

Purpose is number one.

Great overriding.

All right. You know, and even you can put a slash and just put identity. Uh, again, you know, it could take a lifetime. And how we were talking about earlier, purpose isn't something you, you come up, you know, day one. It could definitely— it's definitely something that's progressive. It's definitely something that has to be fumbled around with a little bit because you got to try different things. You got to see like, ah, that's right. I mean, I know guys who have, you know, wanted to be cops and went through the whole program, then got to a point where they're just like, yeah, it's not really a fit.

Right.

And it's, you know, it's gotta— we gotta have that sense that this is a true fit for us. And, um, and so if that— you have to go through that process, and we— some of us have to do it like that, that's fine. But keep going and find that thing so that you now have something to build around, right? Because you can't know what's right for you until you know what's true for you, right?

True. Yeah, absolutely.

All right, here we go. So, uh, number 2. Um, I don't know if I should do this one first or the next one. I'm not sure which one will probably be in better order.

Uh, I think it'll be perfect either way.

All right, we'll just go number 2. Well, when it comes to women, I think what a lot of guys— what I would— or what tip I would give— I guess these really aren't tips in terms of how to get women. These are tips and more of how to build yourself and how to understand yourself and understand what's important when you go into dating situations. And so number 2, I would say it's something that we've talked about consistently for the last couple of weeks, Elizabeth and I anyways. And that's the importance of what chemistry means to women. I know Elizabeth has said multiple times that when she's talked to women about it, she, you know, women of times are shocked that we don't engage with chemistry in the same way you guys do.

Right.

Do we get chemistry for women? Absolutely. But I would say it's more of a— actually, Elizabeth, what would you say would be more of, since you've gotten to look at it from your side of it, what would you say, what would be the equivalent for chemistry for men in your opinion?

It's, it's a little bit of an addiction. It's an addictive kind of attraction. But I don't mean that in the negative way. I mean that more like men get addicted to women. They get addicted to their presence. They, you know, kind of— I mean, you definitely have a chemical reaction to us. But the more you, you know, bond with us, the more you are at risk of getting depressed and pushing away from us. So We kind of go the opposite way in that we get, you know, we have a hormonal problem if we, you know, you keep interacting with us and then you go away. So, um, I guess the corollary really is that until you're going through andropause, which is in your 50s, you can't understand what it's like for us to have chemistry for you until you can bond with us through the chemical pathways. And which starts at that time. So you won't be able to understand it. And we won't be able to understand what it's really like to have just no strings anything with you until our 50s when we stop having running on the same chemical system as well.

So with that in mind, why I really think this is so important for guys to understand is because you'd be surprised, I would say probably about Actually, probably about 75 to 80% of initial dating issues that men have. I want to make sure I underscore that, initial dating issues. Like when we're just talking about in the dating realm, talking about guys who are trying to figure out or trying to get women, trying to date women, trying to, you know, in that—

Like the first time, like right away.

Right. That initial stage when— I would say that that is a very high percentage for chemistry issues, as in men don't think that chemistry— they don't— we don't believe that it's that important, right? We don't believe that it has the significance that it does for how women go about Well, because you don't, you can't feel it.

It's like nonexistent for you. Why would you think it was important? Because you can't, you don't know what it is. How would you know what it is?

Right.

Or what it means or what it implies for us. I mean, we just, it's not even possible for you to decode that. It's like, you know, it's like being worried about the temperature on Mars. Like, why would we care about that? We can't feel that.

And it's not something that is taught to us consciously or subconsciously or subliminally, subliminally, or in a subliminal way. It's one of these things that when women are brought to us from a standpoint of always needing to grow it with you, that's how it always comes to us initially. So every man's default— once every man, but the majority of men— our default firmware source, you know, firmware, I was at I think this is definitely a software issue, but the way it's usually brought to us is that it's a court— you know, the courting method, right? Like, that's how you go about women. You court women, you get women to fall in love with you, you date them, you say nice things, sweet nothings, or whatever. And it—

Which could work.

Which, right, which could work. But the problem is, when you have immediate chemistry for a guy, we don't know what to do with that.

No, and it looks insane to you. It looks insane because you can't— since you don't experience it and can't really do it with your body, because it's a body-related thing, it, it just seems like we're crazy, unfortunately.

Well, the thing is also as well is that most men do not experience that initial hardcore chemistry with a woman. That's probably only about 30 to 35% of men ever actually have those type of experience. Most men experience with that kind of chemistry is seeing it happen to another guy.

Yeah. And this is so even— so even that's even worse because if it's not even happening to you, then you can't really— I mean, right. It's like second degree.

This is the problem with the— how I would say how women think about men, but just how kind of society portrays men because we Society portrays men like— so every romantic comedy is the same thing with men. He's the guy who's sleeping with all these different women till he finally meets this girl, and now he wants to settle down and stop his, uh, sleeping around, one-night stand ways, right? Some form of that story anyways, right?

Which can happen and happens frequently.

Oh, it does. It just doesn't happen frequently to a lot of men. It happens frequently to about 20% of men.

Well, what it is, is it's the story that everybody wants to have. Like, like, I tamed the bad boy and now he's mine. Like, that's very enticing for, you know, the conquerors out there. Right.

And it's very enticing in the sense of that, oh yeah, every guy is just, you know, just, you know, dealing with all these different women. He's just, you know, while he's just fighting them off, while he's sleeping with a different woman every weekend, he's waiting for than one.

No, that's Hollywood too. I mean, you know, like the average dude is not like fielding a million calls from, from women and like, you know, actively being a player out there. And then enjoying that too. Like the movies always make it like, oh yeah, it's so awesome. Like, no, no, no, it's not awesome.

No, it's not.

Even if you're one of the few that can experience it, it turns out it's not actually that awesome. But sometimes men have to get to the point where they can achieve that in order to know how not awesome it is. Right.

And the problem is what it takes for that guy to achieve that can put so much— he would have to add so much onto him that's not inherently authentic that this is how you get these predatorial victims, because these are guys who feel like they've been victimized by not having access to it. The extreme of it would be an incel, right?

Yes.

That's the extreme side of this. But if you're just talking about the average guy, the average guy is yearning to be that guy who gets responded to from in that high chemistry way. And so he goes to— you can go to YouTube or you go to a pickup artist type of teaching to teach you how to act like the guy who's getting responded to that way. Because that's how it's— that's how it's shown to us. It's not, you know, that's how it's portrayed to us. That's how we get taught it. We don't get taught how to be authentically us. We get taught that this happens because women respond to this behavior. This is where red pill comes in as well, right?

Right.

This is where a woman's evolutionary nature is going to respond to. So the guys that she's responding to like this usually have it naturally. Like good looks or, you know, just a natural abundant mindset, you know, confidence, all this type of thing. And so they put those things on, but it's not them yet. They haven't internalized it yet, right? But you can fake it. And these are some of the worst kind of guys in the world, not because they're so horrible, but because they can do so much damage if they don't— if it's not true for them. You know, and I'm not talking about just damage with women, but damage within themselves.

Right. And ownership of those new assets that we've acquired because we were going after this quest. Right. The thing about it is that achievement is empty. So, you know, once you get to the top of the, you know, the heap, then you have to ask yourself like, well, what have I done when I've gotten here? Now, the good, good coaches will make sure that they work with the purpose thing first, so that once you get up there, and once you get everything you want, you aren't then dissatisfied, because that That's the worst situation for both them and you to be in because they got you everything you wanted, but you're still not happy.

Right, exactly. And so this is a tough one because this is very hard to resist as a guy. It's very hard to resist the idea that you can be that guy.

Well, and if you are that guy, you know, that is just a new set of problems. So, you know, but you can't modify how you smell to women. I mean, you know, or whether, you know, they're feeling it for you genetically any other way than, you know, getting to know them. Because I don't know, I've met some absolutely wonderful people that I wish I had chemistry for.

Right.

Wish. I mean, just like, too bad, and that's it. So one thing to understand is that if you don't have that, if she just doesn't have that chemistry for you, don't internalize that. She just can't feel it chemically for you. That's like, you know, you don't smell right to her. You had too, you know, baby— nature doesn't like puppy mills. There were too many people close to you on the, you know, evolutionary chain, and she's just not smelling it. Like, like, for example, a lot of my relatives are— were from Missouri, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I moved to Missouri as an adult, and I noticed, you know, dating there That I was meeting a lot of people who A, look like me, and B, I felt nothing for, like, to the point where it would have been like, just, you know, smacking 2 fish together in the night. Like, it was horrible. But they're objectively— these were nice people, and they were— had checked all the blocks. But it's really something you can't control. So don't beat up on yourself if this just isn't your world with this particular woman.

And that's the thing, because we beat up on ourselves Because— and that's where guys lose it a lot. Yeah, this is where guys—

Even that guy can't get her if it's just like banging 2 fish together in the night, right?

But this is what a lot of the— a lot of men's communities who aren't— because there's 2 sides of men's communities. There's a men's community that deals with female evolutionary nature, then there's men's communities that deal with female kind of like some more spiritual uh, essence nature of women, right? You're too— you know, just like we all have those 2 versions of ourselves we went on millions of times. But, and so the, the side of us, or the side of the men's communities that deal with just women's spiritual nature of it, is— has its problems because they don't, they don't even want to acknowledge that women have an evolutionary side of them, right? But the other side of the men's communities who deal with primarily the evolutionary side of women get hooked on it, because it fits, like we've talked about before, it fits us better, because that's more quantifiable.

Yes, very procedural evolutionary knowledge. And it's a really nice place to start. Because as a coach, if I quickly tell you the evolutionary things, I'll clean up a lot of your problems.

Oh, God, that's, you know, I will— the greatest gift I can give men or women is Would be to teach both of us about the other's evolutionary side first.

Oh yeah, yeah, because then it just depersonalizes the whole game. Like, it isn't just like people are randomly doing stuff to you.

But at the same time, it's very dangerous because it can— like, for guys anyways, why this is so important is because when we learn about this, they— men can get so perplexed and jaded Because it feels like 80% of men are pretty much out of the game. Because that's how, when you talk about it, it seems like women are really naturally going to dis— uh, are not going to consider a large percentage of the men's population. And it's very hard for men who feel like they're just an average guy, and they feel like they're not going to be able to bring the other half to the table and it be enough.

Right, right. Well, and we, at the same time, we have an abundance of choice and the illusion of choice.

Right.

So what I'm getting at there is that we have the idea that, you know, you can look around and see all these advertising messages all day long about how you're not enough. You're not enough. You don't have this. You don't, you know, you're not that guy. And we can see so much more of that than we ever could before. Before, you could just look at the one chief in the tribe And think, well, you know, I'd like to be a little taller or whatever. But now you can look at, you know, just have a sample size and you're overcome with examples that aren't you. But if you go out into your regular world or you're fishing in your own pond, you actually don't have that much choice. It seems like you do, but you actually don't. So Don't get mad at yourself because, you know, you, you just don't— whatever your perception of it is incorrect, no matter what your perception is. So, you know, you can let go of a lot of this comparison just by realizing that there's actually not— it's not like we're just going through our day. You know, most women are not like spending our day beating men off of us. Like, we're not— it's not like we get hit on so often. You know, every second of every day that you don't have a chance. All right.

Like I said, it's, uh, you know, it's really hard to get guys out of this, out of that place once they get there. Because again, like I said, it's just so— it's very— it's, it's, it just proves how much of an idealistic version of love we really do have, uh, It's because when we get hit with this reality of it, it it's so hard not to just allow that to be the whole, right? But again, this is something that we cannot internalize. It's something we cannot take so personally. But again, if they were that easy, I guess everybody would do it, right? But when it comes to chemistry, when it comes to just women's evolutionary nature in general. This is something that you have to be aware of because a lot of men spend a lot of time on women who don't have chemistry for them. And if there's anything that I could get men to stop doing, it's that.

That's true.

And this is really where this point comes from. Like, that's really the whole reason why I put this down there, is because if there's anything I can help 80% of men of doing, stop dealing with women that don't have chemistry for you.

Well, and if she genuinely uses the F word with you, like she genuinely uses the friend word with you, not the F word you were thinking. No, the friend word and means it. And you don't get that like little vibe. Yeah, you know what I mean? That she has actual chemistry for you. It's it. It's over. Call it in. That's all. Because if she saw you as a viable partner and had chemistry for you, You would know.

And that's— see, that's the thing about it, because you could tell— we tell guys this all the time, like, fellas, come on now. Like, we know when it's not there. Like, when you talk to guys who are in the situation, it's not that they're just ignorant about it, but they can't let go of that idealism, the idealism of it. They can't let go of the fact that, like, no, this is how it goes though, right? And then, you know, she finally realizes that the guy isn't the one, and he was— because I'm telling you, guys are reward-based creatures. You know, this is why video games work. This is why everything that gets created for guys has to get created with this formula, and it works. You know, I mean, it just works.

Goals. Yes. Achievement. Competing. Conquering. Controlling.

All of that. And so when God— and a lot of women will kind of get told this in their own way too, like, you know, God needs to, you know, needs to work for it because he'll get bored, or, you know, he doesn't— guy need to feel like he needs to earn it, because even women have picked up on this.

And he does, though. I mean, I agree he does, but that doesn't mean that because he does, you should keep working for it even when she doesn't have chemistry for you, because you'll just be a really great friend that she appreciates but doesn't, you know, want.

And it's just so hard for guys to do that. I mean, if there's anything that I can't for the life of me, it's And that's— this is one of the things that if you talk to any real dating coach, I would have to say that this is one of those things, even though I'm not one. Like I said, I don't do this, but if there's anything that keeps me, or something I've never seen guys who do well with women do, is they don't stick with— they don't put energy into women who don't have chemistry for them. See, a lot of guys think that the Chads never find women that they don't have— that every woman likes them.

Yes. What they do is they keep their opportunities open and they diversify a lot. Right.

They're constantly—

you like, I tell women all the time, add more men. Like, if you have a problem, add more men. And I tell men the same thing about women. If you have a woman problem, add more women. Right.

And that was probably one of the most eye-opening experiences I've ever had. Because I don't know, I was probably like 15. But there was this guy that, uh, older dude staying around, and like this dude, because like he was just always had like, you know, the women that we just at the time thought were just, you know, the baddest women or whatever. And but when I realized, it's like after talking to him and really like seeing how he operated, he got rejected a lot. Like a lot.

Yeah, the point is that he's willing to do it. That's why it works for him. Like Exactly. The more you get rejected, the more you're getting closer to your goal as a man.

And that's what— and it's so funny because I know so many men think that. I never thought it was like that. You don't think it's like that on the outside, but when you see it, it's like, no, he got rejected a lot. He just was like, okay, he moved on. And he just kept going.

Well, he thought of it in a mentally different model. So he chose the mental model that if I just keep getting rejected, eventually He's a good salesman is what he is.

Right. He just kept going, didn't take it personal. It was just like, there's always, you know, it's just that abundance mindset about it, right? And fellas, you gotta have an abundant mindset because what keeps us stuck on women is the scarcity mindset, right? It's that one, it's that idealism. And again, on some end, the idea of wanting a relationship and wanting love and all that, that's great. But spending so much time on women who just don't have it for you, thinking that you're going to get some prize as being the guy guy, like, oh God, I can tell this story. This is probably one of those brutal stories, but it's so perfect for this situation because this is, this is the quintessential situation that happens. So I knew this girl who, uh, she— her and her, um, boyfriend were— or she was mad at her boyfriend because he didn't want to go to her family's house for like a Christmas or Thanksgiving, right?

Okay.

He was like, no, I'm not going. And she was mad at him because, you know, for not wanting to go, but he— his her family was really political, and whatever political side was not his side. And he went one time and he just didn't want to deal with it, you know. He was like, I just don't want to be there because, you know— and I knew her family. I knew they were like that. I knew they would, you know, I knew how they were. I knew, you know, and he just— so I knew completely, I understand completely what— why he didn't want to go. He was like, you know what, let's just— for this, we can just split. And, you know, he wasn't trying to make a big deal out of it, but, you know, she wasn't happy about it. And so she was talking to her, her guy friend And of course he was, you know, couldn't believe that he wouldn't come and did the old guy friend thing, just like so many guy friends do, right? And he was like, I'll come. And so she took the guy friend to to her family's family's house.

Garfield didn't care.

Okay. You know, Garfield didn't care. He just went over. I don't know where. I think he came to our house or something. I don't know where. He came with us somewhere, but he was with us.

He's like great. Take him.

All right, but um, and so she took you know he came and you know the guy friend was all happy about it. You know what I mean? Because he thought he was in. He thought he was you know he oh no he did the whole guy friend thing. And so he went there and you know we're at the family's house. They were having you know their family thing or whatever. And then she calls her boyfriend while she's there. You know, and she's kind of like okay I'm sorry da da da da da da. And he was like, all right. Um, you know, she's like, no, where you at? She's like, I'm over here. She's like, oh, you're like, okay, come pick me up. She was like, all right. So she leaves to go pick up the boyfriend, tells the guy friend to just Uber home, and leaves her family's house, leaves the guy friend at the family's house, comes to where we were, picks up the boyfriend. They go do whatever they're gonna do, right?

Yeah.

And so in my mind, I was just imagining, because she told us that she— that dude was just sitting there at her family's house. And I was just in my mind thinking, I can't— that's how you create incels. That's how you create angry, jaded men. And it could be so preventable strictly because of how he thinks about women, right?

Well, he did it to himself.

Exactly. And this is what guys don't understand. They're doing it to themselves.

Yeah, like, like, she did not change the rules on him. No, he changed the rules on her. And this is This is why we have nice guys.

This is why we have nice guys. Good guys turn to nice guys because of these situations, and they're preventable, but they happen because of the mindset. You went at her in a way that, that her girlfriend would go after her, right?

Go through the back door with a woman.

You went through the back door.

You don't sneak in there and then one day She realizes that's not what you do. Not do a surrogate Thanksgiving and then like act like a boyfriend and get boyfriend points.

No, but this is how so many guys think. They're going about it thinking they're building up boyfriend points by one, trashing her boyfriend, or, you know, just doing, you know, being there for her and all that kind of stuff. Then they get left at the house, you know, due to sitting at her house, at her family's house She leaves, like she leaves the guy to go pick up her boyfriend and he has to Uber home.

So, and I'm like, of course that's what she did. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with her doing that actually. And the reason I don't is because it's not up to her to manage his game. No.

And this is the problem though. That's why this is so— why don't I say why I don't give advice, but this is the advice that you Because you have to change the mindset. You can tell him why that didn't go down well, but he, he truly thinks that this is how it happens, right? This is how you get women to love you. And that's why so many guys are so angry right now. This is why red pill is so attractive to so many guys, is because They're telling guys, this is why, because their boyfriend, their boyfriend over there was Chad, and this is what he was doing, and you need to be like him because you being like this is just a straight beta male. No one wants your genes. I mean, and they go at it in a way where it could, it could be helpful, but the guy just ends up angry because now, no, not only does he know what he did wrong, but now he thinks he's a beta male. Now he thinks he's, you know, right.

And he feels that shame of what he experienced all over his body.

All over his body.

All—

now you're not even considered. And so the guy reads something like that, and then he goes into straight opposite mode, right? And now he's cussing her out. Every woman has probably been cussed out by a guy friend at least once.

Yep.

Yep.

So you're real familiar with it, right?

You all know what it— what this is, you know what I mean?

Well, because to us, if you're giving We just think that you're giving to give to us. Like, we don't actually, you know, I mean, and there's a, there's an element of like, oh, like he might want something else or whatever. But we don't, we just don't see it like that because we would have an enjoyable time at our girlfriend's Thanksgiving.

Right.

Like, we would not be sad about that. You know, oh, okay, you have to go, whatever. I mean, it might bum us out a little that she took off, but the point wouldn't be that we would be there with a goal in mind. We'd just be doing our evening. That's not— we wouldn't be having a goal-oriented Thanksgiving. We were going to win you over during the turkey cutting. But there's a fundamental misattribution of the value of effort in this activity.

Well, again, it's— for the fellows out there, man, We could get ourselves into— we would have to— oh God, it would behoove us to stop backdooring women. And this is something that's so—

Oh God, please do it. Everybody stop now.

You got to stop backdooring because this is how you find yourself in this situation. This is how you find yourself on the internet talking about how guys Girls hate nice guys and all of that. Nobody wants to be— no guy wants to be that guy. No guy wants to be associated with that guy. And it's— we swear that it's just only a certain amount of guys who will ever be able to live enjoyable lives with women, and the 80% of us will just have to just settle for scraps. And that's really how it gets portrayed to us once you start going down those type of routes. But if there's anything that we can stop doing, it's just stop being indirect with women because we're so direct, which is not— which is so natural for us, which is the funny thing. So you— we literally have to override something in order to go down the backdoor way. And then 2, we have to stop thinking that the chemistry isn't important. It is. When a girl— when a woman, a girl does not have that for you, Then she does not have that for you. And that's okay. And that's a good thing because that— she's not for you.

And that's— You're not gonna make good babies.

You're not gonna make good babies. That's right.

It's gonna be bad.

It's gonna be bad times. She's not gonna want your seed, you know. I mean, it's just— women can be raw when it comes to—

Well, and the other thing too is that chemistry will keep you together when you guys hate each other, right? So you want that to be there Because when things aren't going super, when somebody loses their job, when somebody loses their, you know, their looks or something, if you guys still have chemistry, there's hope. But if there's no chemistry to begin with, that's— we're going to divorce court.

Yeah, that's—

So don't make bad bets. So betting badly as a man is betting on somebody you don't have chemistry for and thinking because you guys get along or whatever, it's gonna work. It won't because of the bad times. We do not have to stay together anymore for the kids. We are not in a position. So chemistry is glue. So get somebody who has it for you, even if you have to deal with it being a little uncomfortable for a while.

Yeah, because that's the other end of it. It can be very uncomfortable. And a lot of guys don't realize, because you— I can always tell a guy who doesn't have it because he always wants it, but he wants it in a way that I can tell he hasn't experienced it yet.

Right, right. He wants it a certain way. Like, why doesn't, you know, I just want her to, you know, only think about me today. Well, if that's the case, it's going to be a hard day for you.

Right. Because you don't understand, when a woman has true chemistry for you, it is— you'll never feel— very few things in life will carry that kind of weight. We think we're used to dealing with weight. You've never seen the weight of a woman who has chemistry for you. Because guys are just not— you see, we know that women love a certain way, you know, we can see. But when you experience The weight that women can bring on you. And that's for women, it doesn't seem like any— it just seems so normal and natural. But for you as a guy, I'm telling you, it is, it is very uncomfortable. It's one of the most uncomfortable things that you'll ever have to deal with because it is— you don't— you're not— there's nothing in your life that prepares you for that.

And women, we really don't understand what you're talking about at all, even though I know about what you're talking about? Like, as you're explaining this, in my mind, I'm like, he's absolutely correct. And also, that sounds crazy. But, and the reason that that is the case is because to us, it seems totally just like, we love you.

Right.

Like, just see, it's like, well, it's so innocent. I just love him so much. I want to strangle him. But with my love, like, I just want to tell him how much I love him every minute of every day. And, and that would feel great if somebody did that to me. So what is the problem?

Yeah, see, that is, uh, that's, it's an acquired taste, man. It really is. And it's a blessing. It's, it's the one of the most greatest gifts that you can be given as a man because you can't, there's no supplement for that. You, once you experience it, you realize it's this or nothing. I'll go years without dealing with the woman if I don't see that, if I had to, because—

And that's how valuable it is. But it's also a crazy roller coaster, as Robert says.

It is. It's, you know, like I said, nothing in your life prepares you for that kind of weight. And it's very— it takes— most guys will run from it the first couple times because they don't— it's too much, you know.

Well, and then later they'll find out how they can get her back, and they'll get in touch with me and be like, oh my God, she really loved me. I just was afraid of that.

You know, you just didn't know how to handle it. It was so uncomfortable. You didn't know, you couldn't breathe, right? It is because we're guys, we always need our space so we can go and just deal with stuff on our own. And when you have a woman in your life like that, it's so— you don't know how to manage it yet.

Well, and we think we're being casual too.

Even women think they're not being that, like, you know, that intense about it. It's still more than— because it's not about your intensity, it's what we're used to experiencing.

Exactly. And just the continual openness, because you're not used to experiencing just the container being flung open and you just do whatever you want. She still loves you. I mean, the only other person like that is mom. So lots of people like lose their whole erection and they go away. And then they realize, well, and then they realize what they lost. And then that's when they come back. So men do that all the time. They go in and out. Because of that, you know, when it— when a woman really loves them, which is why People make a mistake when they go away. Like you said, you know, people do it the first couple of times. But on the other hand, you know, when he returns, and she shut the door on him, that's the saddest thing ever, because there's really chemistry there. And it could be workable. But because she doesn't believe that he's sincere, then, you know, we miss out on something really great.

Well, I mean, well, we have to be careful too, because a lot of times we go away, And then we'll go after someone because a lot of it's because you don't get to choose that at the same time. You only get to choose a lot of times a woman who has kind of that kind of chemistry for you. And what guys will do is that they'll go out into the world and realize how rare it actually is, no matter what they look like.

All the time.

Because you can be an attractive dude objectively, but a woman having real chemistry for you is different from her just thinking you're Oh yes, right.

And it's massively different feeling for you and for her.

All right, absolutely. And so even guys will come back because there's nothing— you don't— you might see that once every 5 years, you know, you may see that once every 2 years. I mean, you could see that, you might not see it again for a while, and you can go out and deal with women who don't have it on that level for you, and it's night and day. And so guys are always going to go return to where— it's like in video games, we can always return to the last place we died. We don't have to start off the way— we don't have to start at the very beginning anymore. Why did video game people do that? They do that, you know, just randomly? No, because there's no— that's how we are. We want to return to the last place that we had success.

Well, in the other— but, you know, people give this a bad name because they think that the reason it didn't work out is because the people were fundamentally incompatible, right? So they say, do we— you know, so, so people degrade the return But the thing about the return is that if you bothered to return at all, you could be doing it for any number of reasons. And then, you know, one of them could be that like you went back to the last place you were safe. But another one could be that you realize that, man, I'm an idiot. And that happens more, more often than people kind of care to admit, because it's really like returning after you've been an idiot. And then really meaning it is just a shame-filled activity. Nobody wants to do it. Nobody wants to admit to it. So it's easier actually not to return.

Right.

You know, if you really like have a conscience and you really like cared about that person, it's much easier to not— to just be like, nope, that's it. I'm done. I'm moving on. Because just admitting that you screwed up and trying to repair it is life on hard mode. So people give this a bad name, like, oh, like the easy way out is coming back. That's not true.

It's— I mean, obviously we're talking about depending on the circumstance, but absolutely. It's, you know, well, guys, you'll learn. You'll learn how rare this is. I don't care. I don't care if you're a male model. I don't care if you are, you know, rich and famous and everything, the ultimate alpha male guy can be, you're still seeing this rarely.

Absolutely.

This is not something that you get an abundance of, I guarantee you, because if it did work that way, you wouldn't see all these divorces, even in, you know, even on that level. You know, pick every— pick whoever you think is the ultimate physical beauty or look, and are— what are they walking around thinking? Thank God I'm— I was created so hot because I have no issues in this area. You know what I mean? It doesn't work that way.

No, I speak to and deal with a lot of very beautiful women, everybody. Now, it is our— and men, but mostly, you know, since I talk to women, women, beautiful women have problems too. And they have, like, they have relationship issues. They don't, you know, they have the same kind of weird issues that you have. It doesn't make them any less immune to that stuff, you know. And, and also sometimes there's even more problems that people can't even imagine that come with being really attractive and really magnetic to others. And so it's just a different set of problems, even though it seems like nice problems to have. It can be.

Oh, you know, like I said, when we want to have problems that aren't our problems, we think that somehow they're better, you know, or some other easier way.

Less painful.

Less painful.

Yeah, but people, I mean, you know, people misunderestimate beautiful people. And I'm certainly not like trying to get out, you know, the violin about this. But the point is that you, when it comes to chemistry, you just don't have control over that. And it's, you know, it's easy to say, okay, you know, it's over and then treat people like they're disposable. But they're not.

And that's why, you know, Why a reason? I'm glad you said that because now I can actually put some some words to why I think it's tough for me to talk about dating tips and all that kind of stuff because I'm it's more discerning. I'm more discerning such you know approach than anything else. And so when you're asking me how to get women, I'm like I don't really. It's not how I think about it. That's not how I see guys. who do well with women think about it. It's not so much of how do I put this game on to get this particular woman. It's discerning where this woman is at with me at every stage and then going off of that. And so it's not so much I'm giving the power away or I'm just putting the choice into a woman's hands. It's just there's certain things that are important when, when dealing with women, just in terms of starting out right. Guys who I know who are quintessentially good with women just don't deal with women who don't have desire for them. You know, that makes sense. And not that they only— they like every woman they want desires them. That's not the case. But they don't deal with women that they don't desire. I mean, I have some— know some guys who are just all into the game and they love it and they spend a lot of time on it and they'll go out to the club every weekend, they'll go out to the bar every weekend, they're learning pickup lines and they're learning the You know, they'll spend hundreds of dollars on outfits every week to— they get completely involved in the whole thing. But just the average guy just doesn't deal with women who don't have a certain level of attraction to him or desire. And he doesn't necessarily attribute that to him being so hot or sexy. He just understands that certain women respond to him a certain way and certain don't. Could he break it down and get the stats on why that is?

Sure.

Very good, but naturals don't really think like that. You know what I mean?

No. Well, because there's no— if you have all the choice in the world, why wouldn't you wait for something that you wanted? Or like, if you can go to a, you know, an all-you-can-eat buffet, why wouldn't you pick out the food you like the best?

Right.

You know, you don't go into the buffet and worry that there's food there. You know, you're like, I've got to eat all the food because They have it all. No, once you can pick anything, you pick anything.

This is just about being— it's about exposure. Once you're exposed to better, it's hard to go back to what we're used to.

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's just because you can't get your mind around it being any other way, which is what happens when you change some of these mindsets.

Right. This is why, again, it's so hard to give advice, because if you're— where are you as a guy? Have you been exposed to a genuine desire from a woman? Because if you have, there's certain things I won't even have to talk to you about, right?

Well, freaking out when she really loves you, right?

You know, freaking out when she really loves you, because that's something we could talk about, right? I understand that. But if you haven't been exposed to that, you don't think it can be like that, then you think that You're gonna have to go get taller somehow, get surgery to get taller. You're gonna have to looks max. You're gonna have to do all of these things because you have to be Chad, you know, in order to do that. And that's a tough mindset to get into because it's just like anything, you know, how do you— you have to break that down. And so it's, it's hard to give out something general. And I understand we got to work in generalities just as You know, public people or having a public forum, all that kind of stuff. I get that.

I mean, well, and you have to expand before you can specialize, right? So, you know, we have to like open the net and then talk about general stuff and then move to you, you know, the individual person. But the stuff that like is most impactful is being choosy no matter what gender you are.

All right, guys, then, you know, that's the one we talked about. I'm sorry, I don't want to cut you off.

Wow.

You just sparked something because I guess this is something I can segue into now. It's just the idea of this, uh, this— the abundance mindset is, is— it's almost going to be impossible for you as a man to have, to have a sense of your own sense, your own feeling, your own thoughts that you've are being successful if you're not thinking of life like there's enough of it for you.

Yeah, I think that's true for all genders across dating, for sure.

Absolutely.

That one is universal. Because the more you tie your, you know, yourself to the one option, the harder it's going to be for you.

And I like what you said, because this isn't a mindset Not a circumstance. You have to really understand this. This is a mindset, not a circumstance. You can have an abundant mindset and not necessarily be in a circumstance where you're living in abundance.

Absolutely right.

You have to— you have to function like this. No one— if you have an abundance mindset, you're gonna have to have that during seasons of life when you're not living in abundance in certain areas of In order to ever achieve more.

Absolutely.

In order to ever achieve more, because it's the mindset that brings the abundance, right? But at the same time, I have to be careful with that because I understand that, you know, we always talk about confidence and how important confidence is, but confidence a lot of times does derive from options, right?

And it also derives from action too. So we can tell you to be confident, but if you haven't actually gone out and acted confident In the world, like done things that scared you and created confidence. It's kind of a false, you know, metric.

Absolutely. And fake confidence is the most nastiest. Oh, it's disgusting.

Well, it's really arrogance, and that's a bad thing. So confidence, good. Arrogance, bad. But arrogance is just confidence without legs.

Exactly. Arrogance is what you have when you haven't conquered it. Anything, right? And this is what— and that's how you get confidence. You get confidence by conquering. You get confidence by slaying. You get confidence by setting goals and achieving them. You get confidence by making—

by—

I love what you said— by action. And this is something that's so important for us, man, because it goes back to the first point. Before you want to say anything about women, you got to start getting little wins under your belt. Because that's what builds you up as a man. And if you don't do that, you'll make getting women your wins, right? And this is why you have guys who slept with hundreds of girls and they're still not satisfied, right? So you're still not— like Elizabeth said, it's empty. Because if you— you're gonna need to get that. And there's so many guys who their identity is built on how many women they can get, right? And how many women they slept with. And I've never seen top guys worry about that. It's funny, the richer the people I know, the less money they spend.

Right.

And I think that's hilarious because, you know, they'll spend money on things that are important to them, right? I've seen people put a lot of money in their houses because that's their, you know, that's their castle, right? I've seen many, you know, but I've seen rich people who drive around in Ford, you know, in a Ford F-150, not even like a top model, Because he just, you know, he don't like—

Who cares?

Right. I'm not spending money on something that's depreciating, right? So I need something to ride around in, and that's what I got. But it's the same.

Well, and also, if you could have anything, you can make the educated choice.

Right. And that's the thing. There's just a calmness. There's a smoothness to people who actually are walking in whatever it is that they're saying that they're walking in, right? There's a— there's an abundance. And there was that one movie. What was it called? I think it was with Justin Timberlake. And, um, uh, oh, that one girl. It's called In Time. Did you ever see that movie?

In Time? I don't think so. Oh, I can remember like the poster, but I don't think I—

Well, it was a movie that was about how like the world has changed so much that the rich could pretty much live forever because the currency was time.

Oh yeah.

You can buy— so you bought and sold and they traded time, and time was really You know, what became the currency. And in the rich part of towns, it was funny because everybody walked really slow. And in the poor part of towns, everybody was running, because if you're poor, you don't have a lot of time. So you have to— they did it, they had to do everything really fast. And I thought it was a really interesting analogy for kind of what we're talking about right now, because that's exactly what it is. When you see a man who has confidence, he's not doing anything quickly. No, no.

Oh, God. This reminds me of— there was a Broadway rendition, and this is a little bit off topic, but not. So there was a Broadway rendition of American Psycho in New York. And the lead actor went on one of the night shows and they did like a dance routine. And the reason that I thought that he was so good in the role was because he was about a quarter of a second behind the rest of the cast in the dance moves, which made him seem very casual and like kind of lion-like. And so they're doing, you know, they're singing, they're— he's on time. I mean, I'm not saying that he's behind, but what it is is it gave him the illusion that no matter what he was doing, he was just slightly better than everybody else.

And that's what it is, man. I'm I'm telling you, it's, it's so funny when you start looking at guys. And that quote in that one movie that said, uh, you know, the loudest one in the room is the, the weakest one in the room. And for men, that's so true. And I used to, you know, you see, we got to school and, you know, we're freshmen, you're seeing the boisterous type of guys who are always talking, always talking about they're getting girls. But then you saw the really— the reality of it. Those are the ones, the first ones to start crying.

Right.

And I didn't— that's— it's nothing like that as a kid when you see like the playboy and you see him crying. Like, that kind of throws you off as a guy because it kind of exposes like, oh, all right.

Uh-oh.

Okay, you know.

Yeah.

And that's like the worst thing to have. We can go into a different side about that.

Yeah, well, you find out who's naked when the tide goes out, right?

It's like, oh, all right. Yeah, but it, it really is True. And this is what you get as a man when you start to produce your own results and you start to produce results that are important to you. We're so used to producing results for everybody else, and this is where our own provider and all that comes into play. But when you, when you start with you first— again, I'm not talking about selfishness, I'm talking about your own foundation— because you have to understand that if you're building a castle, you got to build, you, you're the only one— not, you're not the only one living in it. All right, right. You have a kingdom just because you are taking care of a lot of other people who are dependent on your ability to, to rule correctly. All right, there's movie after movie, and Game of Thrones just went off. It's all about the— I love those type of shows because these are the most basic archetypes, most basic Uh, or the best projection of how our evolutionary natures work, right, in the most rawest form. And again, there's so many great qualities in men that are so natural in us, but at the same time, when we aren't— when we haven't built up our own defenses for ourselves, then we can be swayed. And that's usually where terrible, terrible things happen in the world, right? Hitler didn't— couldn't himself do everything that he did. We understand that, right? It wasn't— he couldn't— he alone couldn't do it.

Right.

He had to have other people that were willing to be able to implement this. And so don't play around with this. I don't want to be, you know, too dramatic about it, but the point is that as a man— and you're talking about when you go into a dating situation, there should be a frame that you, that you come with that a woman should want to enter.

Yes, absolutely. That's really good. Great. Amazing point.

And there's so many men— see the friend zone guy story that I just told you about, had, you know, when he was waiting at her house? That's what men— that's what happens to men who want to enter a woman's frame thinking that that's the way to get her. Right.

Yeah, you don't know. The container opens for you. You don't open the container. You don't go over there and like try to pry it open. You have to just, you know, and, you know, come into her space and see whether you're allowed in there.

Right. This is something, and she has to decide if you're a space she wants to enter. Does she want to open her doors, her container, to what you represent, to what you have to give? And this is such an important part of the chemistry element. A woman has to care about your attention for it to mean anything. A lot of guys want to do all these tricks that we learned from pickup artists. They forget the woman has to care about it.

Oh God, that's so true. I always enjoy when people try this on me. I'm like, well, that's so nice, but I don't care about you. You're not gonna like entice me by being like more aloof and difficult. Like, like, insult me and then like, you know, don't say anything for 3 days. I'm just gonna hope you make it 5.

All right, so, you know, there actually has to be something there, right?

Um, right.

But you creating a frame that is true for you, that represents you who you are and allowing women to decide whether that's something they want to come into or not is very important. I don't know, I don't know if I actually said that right. Actually, no, I did. I lied. Um, no, I want to say it like that because I think it's important when you start talking about the feminine, the masculine element of it, that the feminine has to— is the beautification of everything, right? It's the cultivating of everything. It's the taking. It's the incubation. Element of life, right? A woman can take something and she'll multiply it, whatever that is. Whatever you give her, she's going to multiply it. I mean, if she gives a fuck about you, obviously, right? Um, and so why this is so important that you come in with the frame that is, that is true for you, because when a woman does decide or she has an attraction to, to that frame, then her entering it is the same thing as her entering a home and house and making it a home. That's where you get element in the, the, the great experience of femininity, when she actually is living in a house she wants to be in. Right.

Right.

Uh, this is why it's, it's, it's really— I want to say it's really simple, but it's really an understanding of how You need to act, or you— the, the frame you need to have as a man. And I think so many men are trying to, because of scarcity, trying to get women, trying to go into— going like— it's like, because we live in different elements. It's like me being on the boat and a woman living in the water, and men want to go into the water but realize you can't breathe in there, right?

Well, you can't— you can't attract a feminine woman if you're not a respectable man.

Right.

So if we can't respect you, we can't, we can't give you those gifts. We can't show up in a feminine way. We're all going to be dudes sitting on the couch. Like, if we don't respect you, and I don't mean disrespect you like, like we don't like you, people take it like that. What I mean is, if we can't respect your frame, so we can't really understand what your purpose is, you don't really seem to have a direction, you don't court us in a way that feels like for sure, you know, you try to backdoor us, then we think, okay, whatever, I'm the respectable one. And if I'm the respectable one, then I'm the man.

All right.

You know, if you come to me, you come at me and you want to be cherished, you're in the feminine. So if you just come in there and you're like, well, if you just cherish that, you know, I came to your family Thanksgiving and didn't, you know, and then did the man job somehow. No, I can't cherish you and then also respect you when you don't have a frame, when you don't have any integrity.

Right. And this is a big, big issue amongst so many men is wanting to be cherished for—

Well, we all want both. We all want to be cherished and respected. Everybody does. But you just have to pick which one you want more and act in the way in which you can gain that thing. Like, if you want to be cherished, you have to act cherishable, you have to act soft, you have to be feminine. Now, if you want to be respectable, then you need to act like a man.

It's just so disgusting to me. Like, I just like, I can't stand— like, fellas, man, please don't pick the former.

Like, well, but the thing is that it is everybody's right, you know, to pick whichever one they want to be in. The only problem that you're going to run into is if you pick one that's not natural to you.

Pick—

that's—

I couldn't say it better anyway, or say it any better myself.

And then you have to pick a partner that is the complement. So if you really, really want to be in your cherishing feminine, then you need to pick a respectable partner who wants to live in their respectable nature. Now, there are, there are women that are respected first, and that happens. It happens. It certainly happens. There's a movie called Spread with Anne Heche and Ashton Kutcher, which is a really great example of a respectable woman and what happens when The cherishable man disrespects her.

Right.

She throws him out. She throws him out. But up until then, it's all fine. She pursues him, she buys him stuff. He's living under that paradigm, under her roof. And then when he stops respecting her is when she's out on him. But anyway, you can have either one. It's just that most people feel most natural in their gendered Right. And that's fine. But you can't get a partner who has the same polarity as you and expect to be happy.

Right.

So you can't do things to force the other person into their opposite energy system and then complain that they are in that system. So you can't collapse the frame as a man and then want to be cherished, then get upset because you have a competitive, conquering, and controlling woman with you.

That's where the consistency comes in.

Yes.

Because why this will happen is because life happens and relationships happen and you get, you know, things happen throughout your experience that test your frame, right? And so if you're not built up enough, then you will collapse your frame to enter the, into the other person's for a lot of times because you think it's just necessary for have peace, right? Sometimes you think it's necessary to just, you know, you don't want to deal with whatever. And a lot of people do this for a lot of reasons that seem almost reasonable at the time. But when you do this too much, then again, a woman will stop respecting you. And for the flip side, a man will stop cherishing you.

Oh, yes.

And that's when, you know, problems happen. Chemistry goes away. And, you know, you see all the things that you see when a result of that experience happens. So, um, I said probably a good place to stop, but we have more. I guess we can do it next show.

I would love to. I would love to. Yeah, well, I'm all fired up about like collapsing the frame, but the, the heart— the, the reason why I'm all fired up is because when people don't realize they're doing this and then they toss the other person into the opposite polarity, like when And when they start to act, you know, to not follow their purpose and act real flighty, that throws the other person into their other energy source. And then they fault the first person for, you know, they fault their partner for it.

And I could tell you this personally, if you ask me what's number one issue you deal with women, like, I guess if I could have to word it like that anyways, you know, if you told me what the number Number one thing that I have to really be aware of with women is this, because women are constantly testing my frame. They're constantly testing my frame. And as far as the podcast, they're constantly testing my frame personally. That's the number one thing you have to deal with as a man. If you can get that stable, you'd be surprised how less difficult all the other things that are important are. But I'm telling you 100%, there's not— it's not even close. There's So 1, and then like 2 is like 10 steps down in terms of what you deal with. And it's so common now, I don't even realize— I don't even recognize it anymore because, you know, it's so natural. But yeah, that's—

Well, because disrespecting men has become epidemic.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

That's so— that's what, of course, what you must deal with all the time. And that's why it's so rare when you find people who are respectful.

Oh, absolutely. It's almost weird because I'm always— I'm so prepared for it. Like, I'm always like, uh, what's that? Like, like in like a tense—

Like on guard.

Like, there we go, like on guard. And it's very strange when it's not happening because you know it's coming, right? And so you're kind of— you, you kind of have to live in that state if you're going to deal with a lot of women anyways. And for whatever reason And guys who sleep with a lot of women, guys who date a lot of women. But if you work with a lot, I mean, all of it, especially in today's world, you're gonna have to constantly deal with that and not let it jade you. And that's gonna be one of the most difficult things you're gonna have to do, because to manage that as a man, there's— if you're in the Western culture anyways, like, that's where you're going to have to— 80% of your issues are going to come from having or frame issues.

There—

it's, it's, again, I personally— I can't speak for any other man, but I personally can't say that there's anything that comes even close to what I would have to make sure that I— if you say anything that I have to deal with consistently, it's definitely that. So, yeah, uh, but anyways, we will continue this next time and we'll keep going. I hope you guys got something out of it. Like I said, I know it wasn't So much so of like, you know, how do I get that dime?

10 steps to get a dime. Like, I mean, we could write a parody about it, but we probably can't deliver it.

But I think it's important to understand this about yourself and understand this about the opposite sex, because these are the things that you're actually going to deal with on a daily basis. This is what's What matters most, you know. You're— if you're still in like, I just want a hot girl, then you're not there yet. I don't want to talk to you yet, you know. You're just not there yet.

You need to get beat up more for us to be interested.

Right, you gotta— you have to go through a little bit more. You start asking the right questions. So, right. But, um, yeah, thank you so much, Elizabeth, though, for as usual for being able to, to, to hang, man.

Oh, thank you. I always appreciate this and I have such a good time Yes.

Uh, and thank you guys all for tuning in, man. I really appreciate it. Again, you can go to our website, theoriongroupodcast.com. But other than that, we will see you guys next time. Uh, thank you, Elizabeth.

Thank you, Rob.