Understanding Chemistry in Dating Part 2
In this episode of the Orion Group Podcast, host Robert Dunn and guest Elizabeth Stone (ChartTheOne.com) explore the intricate psychology of modern dating, distinguishing between fleeting romantic chemistry and lasting compatibility. They examine how scarcity versus abundance mindsets drive desperate behavior, how self‑sabotage and feelings of unworthiness block genuine connection, and why people often become uncomfortable with their own happiness. The conversation delves into neurochemical mechanisms—dopamine spikes, oxytocin bonding, and intermittent reinforcement—that create addictive attraction loops, and they critique common dating myths such as the “three‑date rule,” the notion of bartering chemistry, and the belief that men must “qualify” themselves. Evolutionary gender preferences (height, waist‑to‑hip ratio) are discussed alongside the impact of online dating’s photo‑first culture. Mid‑episode, they shift to a close reading of a Medium article titled “I’m Strong, Single Independent Woman, and I’m Sad,” using it to illustrate the paradox many high‑achieving women face: intellectual success paired with loneliness and a perceived loss of feminine energy. They argue that modern culture has over‑valued masculine traits (career, independence) while de‑valuing femininity, leading to a “gender Cold War” where both sexes feel their essential energies are suppressed. Stone offers practical ways to cultivate feminine energy—asking about feelings, embracing yin energy, and balancing masculine drive—to restore polarity, which they claim is essential for attraction. Throughout, they stress the importance of depersonalizing negative experiences, sitting with discomfort, and seeking a balance between primal drives and conscious choice. Practical take‑aways include giving a potential partner at least three dates before judging chemistry, recognizing scarcity‑driven fear, learning to sit with happiness without self‑sabotage, and intentionally developing both masculine and feminine energies for healthier relationships.
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Hey, what's going on, guys? Welcome to the Orion Group Podcast. I'm your host, Robert Dunn, and I'm here tonight, Wednesday, hump day, with Elizabeth Stone, ChartTheOne.com.
I like that. Well, hello, how are you?
I'm good. How you doing?
I'm excellent. I'm sitting by my cousin's pool in Arizona and just enjoying myself so far. Nice.
Perfect conversation vibe atmosphere you got going on. Is it hot still out there?
It's not— it's getting better, so it's in the 90s, but that's a big improvement over 120.
That's a fact. Like I said, if there's anything worse than Southern California, it's definitely Arizona. So I'm sure you got a nice tan though.
I do not. I am white as can be.
Thank you guys though for tuning in. Really appreciate it. You can go to our website, theoriongroupodcast.com, and you can check out all of our stuff there.
But with With this plane landing over our head.
Yeah, like I said, I think the listeners know by now that I live next to an Air Force base, so they should. I don't even recognize it anymore, so hopefully you guys don't either.
I think it's the first time I've ever noticed it, so nice job hiding that from the two of us. You like that? Well done.
Nice. But with back by popular demand, we are going to go for a part 2 of what we discussed Last time, because, uh, I was telling Elizabeth, it clearly struck a nerve or not really struck a nerve, but struck something with you guys. And you guys seem very interested, uh, in this aspect of intersectional relationships. Is that what you call it?
Intersectional relationships.
Does that work?
I have, well, I mean, I think it sounds fantastic.
There you go. Thank you for that.
Um, well, and you know, I was, I was, we haven't gotten a chance to talk about why this hit a nerve with people. I'm so curious to see. Um, find out what they said about it.
Yeah, I mean, it was kind of a range from like, there's some guys who were kind of upset in the sense that I, I think a lot of the guys thought we were, especially me anyways, we're going down a route of kind of like, what are we supposed to do then type of a thing, you know? Because I think a lot of guys heard, you know, if it's not there immediately, then there's nothing for them to do. And so I guess kind of Oh. Make that kind of a little bit more clear, because that's definitely not the case. And so we'll kind of hit on that. A lot of women were kind of like a lot of eye-opening kind of aha moments seem to happen, and just kind of realizing kind of what understanding kind of their own behavior in terms of how they've dealt with men in their lives, and kind of why certain things have happened and why they kind of keep getting into certain situations. So it's kind of a range between that kind of stuff.
All right, that makes sense.
Yeah, so I thought that was best for to hopefully kind of clear a lot of that stuff up. If not, I mean, at the end of the day, you can only, uh, do so much. But I think what's most important about this is not so much that you listen to this stuff in terms of right or wrong and more of How is it applicable or applicable to you? You know, have you seen this in your own life? Have you seen yourself kind of respond to situations and to people in a way that you didn't really get, or you kind of find yourself in a consistent loop with men or women? You know what I mean? And this kind of hopefully can help you break that.
That's right. And kind of understand what's going on behind the scenes when some of these things are happening that are Oh, absolutely.
And that's big, because a lot of stuff you can get upset about just by not understanding it.
Almost everything, really.
Right, exactly.
Yeah, especially when it comes to other people. When other people become more predictable because of biology or because you understand them better, then they're not so mysterious and painful and hurtful, and it depersonalizes a lot of their idiosyncrasies.
Right. And that's the big thing. You gotta depersonalize it because anytime you have a negative experience and you internalize that and you point it as to, you know, to yourself as there's something off or wrong with you, then that's just a toilet bowl situation, right?
Yeah. And it's human to do that. It's human to think, to start with yourself and think, well, okay, how did I fail? And then move outward. Right. So if you already know that it's not your fault because this is happening, that's a very freeing and helpful experience.
Absolutely. And, you know, really trying to break people out of the proverbial wilderness, because that's what dating has become for, I think, so many people, especially so many people in our generation, and even the younger generation coming up. I mean, even older people are having— are struggling in a lot of ways, just because it's just such a new dynamic with, with online dating being presented to us as an option and all the different things that that is presented. But there's so many people just kind of experiencing the same things over and over and over again. And the only 2 options are to think that there's something just inherently wrong with you, or that you just keep picking the wrong people because you're such a terrible picker. Or, you know, you just—
Which is also something wrong with you if you think about it.
Exactly.
Like, not only is the outside wrong, but so is the inside, and we're all doomed. And that's just It's very demoralizing. There's no, there's nowhere to go from there. You can't get any traction with anybody.
Exactly. And anytime— that's how you know you can't see clearly, because you keep seeing the same things over and over again, right?
Right. Well, and you're continuing expecting those things and then focusing upon them and then, you know, vibrating that out and just having the same weird cookie-cutter experiences over and over again because you expect them.
Exactly. And I know last time we kind of talked about, in regards to men anyways, how men can be very idealistic. And so men will consistently kid themselves in a situation where they're— they keep expecting this nebulous behavior or action or response from a woman that never comes, and they don't understand why. And they keep putting themselves in that situation over and over and over again, thinking that one day it's just going to be different, not realizing that there's something that has to change in the process in order for— to get a different result.
All right, right. And absolutely. And not only the process of what they're doing, but the process of what they're thinking while they're doing it.
Oh, absolutely. That's the thing. You'd be Because a lot of men, we're so single-focused, right? And so it's— so we talked about how women have that diffused awareness where you guys are just aware of everything all at the same time, right? Yeah, we are. You know, you can see that's where the multitasking comes in, right? It's not that men can't multitask, but it just seems so natural for women to just be, you know, as an example, right, she's cooking, taking care of the kid, on the phone with her friend, making sure the laundry— she's— all 4 of those things are happening at the same time, and it doesn't seem stressful. It just seems so natural for her to be able to be aware of all these things happening at once. For us, we're watching TV and that's all we notice. And so the kid can be falling off the couch and it's—
Right.
And it's, you know, if it's not in our line of sight, it almost gets blocked out. And that's just, you know, that's a part of the way both of our brains are wired. And there's important reasons for that. But nevertheless, it happens a lot with men is that we can— a lot of times we can stay stuck on a woman for a long, long time, because we're just expecting it to be— we really are expecting that one day, it's just all of a sudden going to be different. And a lot of times we don't even realize that we're doing it.
Well, and the hard part about that is that, you know, if you are focused on that one woman, and it's not changing, then you either have to change or you have to try to change the situation in some way. I mean, Either you're going to have to act different or you're going to have to— you can't just keep interacting the same way and expect the same result with her. And then just like keep, you know, running it into the ground. Like if it's different, then grab hold of that difference, even if it's scary that it's different.
And that's the thing too, you know, you got that fear element to it.
All right. Well, and people are so scared of messing up with other people and the stuff that they're doing when they're in that fear place is what's Absolutely. Because they're focused on the lack of what they want. So they're going to experience more of that since they're laser-focused on the experience of lack. I mean, you know, it's basic, basic, but it isn't when you're in it and you can't understand why you can't transform the situation. Well, if you're focused on the fact that it's not going the way you want it to go, then you're going to have a really hard time changing it. You're also going to have a hard time changing it if you are afraid to lose People, because you can't transform a relationship unless you're willing to lose a person, because you will act in ways like, um, that do not serve you, that do not further your goals.
This is where that scarcity, uh, versus abundance mindset comes in, right? Because that's exactly what you're talking about. And I didn't really realize that, that Because a lot of times, you know, when you're talking about something, especially when you're talking about something that you, you know, you personally and how you personally go about a thing, uh, again, what's normal to you, a lot of times you don't see, right?
Oh yeah. It's like a fish being inside a fishbowl with water. You know, they don't know they're in water. They just are going about their day.
Exactly. Uh, and so when you're talking about scarcity and abundance mindset, it's so important because scarcity is just that. It's It's going into every situation terrified that the worst outcome is you losing the person. Right.
Which is a hard way to live.
It's a very, very hard way to live.
Right.
Uh, it's because it puts you in a state. That's when you talk about desperation, when you're talking about neediness, when you're talking about all of these traits that are universally unattractive to both men and women, that is rooted in a scarcity mindset because scarcity means there's not enough, right? And I have to hold on to any kind of resource or any kind of anything that I can get my hands on as a— because my belief is there's not enough. And or regards to— or in regards to this particular topic, especially with men, it's I don't know when this will come around again, right? I don't know when this opportunity— an opportunity like this will come again. Even if it's— because a lot of times men don't even ask themselves if this is an opportunity they're actually Wanting.
Yeah, they found themselves in the situation and now they got to keep it even though it kind of sucks, right?
It's like they're not even asking themselves that question. I see women do this a lot too, because the women can be so caught up in the guy that I remember I've asked women multiple times, like, do you even like this dude, right? Have you even thought about the fact or considered that— is this something that you're actually interested in, or is it just, you know, triggering something? Right? That you're a natural response for you to respond in a certain way. And so we, we both do this in, in somewhat different ways, but the point is, uh, you cannot function properly in any area of life really when you're coming from that perspective, when you have that mindset, right?
Right.
Uh, because it really is a fear-based mindset and nothing Fruitful can come out of that.
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And it's so hard to shift out of that when you go down that fear spiral sometimes that it's not like we just magically have a, you know, oh, I'm in fear and I'm gonna stop doing that. Like, that's as much as, as much as we all want it to be perfect and for ourselves not to go down that route, even, you know, it's, it's hard to do that when you're in that place. So it's just not You know, as simple as just, oh, I'm in fear, I'm going to get out of fear, which, like, you— like, I'm going to get out of the car. It's no problem.
Because, like I said, a lot of it is subconscious because, again, like you just said, you're not really aware of it like that. You're not going to the place and thinking, oh my God, I can't get something else, so I'm going to do whatever. I mean, you're not thinking that, right? It's just in your behavior, in your instinct, is to approach it that way. And a lot of times, until you're aware of it, you can't stop it. And you're right, because there's a reason why you're afraid of losing whatever it is that comes. There's a reason why you cling to everything, and you, and you, you're not allowing yourself to present yourself honestly and authentically because of a fear of, like I said, missing out. That's FOMO.
Unworthiness.
You know, that unworthiness. Absolutely. Go ahead and talk about that.
Yeah, unworthiness. My goodness, that's a big topic. But, you know, if you, if you don't think that you can maintain whatever it is, it doesn't matter what somebody's offering you, and they will legitimately mean it, you won't be able to absorb it. You know, they could tell you every day how much they love you and do really nice, kind things and be a great partner. But if you don't believe you deserve it, you will do something to sabotage it. It will not— And people are perplexed by this. Like, this is one of the most confusing things ever to people because they think That just by them being there and being loving, that should be enough. And it should be, but it's not because the other person can't absorb anything that you're offering. They think that you're an idiot because it's kind of like that Groucho Marx quote that, you know, we don't want to be a member of any club that would accept us as a member. Oh, so over time, people lose respect for people who are really in love with them. And then they get bored and they do really destructive things. So that self-hatred unfortunately will just really eat up a relationship and it will eat up good relationships. I mean, you know, I unfortunately have been on both the receiving and the, you know, dealing end of this situation and it's super common because we don't really understand what we bring to the table since it's what we bring to the table. You know, if you feel like that every day, you don't really like understand that somebody else could not think that.
Oh, boy.
So, you know, and so you just don't get it. Like, they seem like a moron. Why would they like me? I mean, at first you seem, you know, it feels really great that they've fallen in love with you, but over time it's— they seem more and more boring or more and more dumb because, gosh, why would they even care about me? How could I even, you know, how, how can they possibly care when I see all of my own faults, you know, and I have this, this underlying fear that one day they will finally see and notice and this has all been a hideous sham and, and they're going to go away. So, you know, why invest? Why do anything? Why not just sabotage this now? I'm going to leave them before they leave me. All right.
And I'm— I've said this, I don't know, honestly, I think it's every show, but I know I've said this a lot. I'm telling you, The biggest issue that I was shocked by, by doing this show and reading emails and talking to even co-hosts, it was never what people thought was the issue. Like when people tell you what they think is the issue, it never was that.
Never, ever, ever.
It was always some form of self-sabotage. And I didn't— it was crazy that people, you know, they call us selfish a lot, but that's not what I saw. That's not what I was getting from these people. People, especially when it comes to relationships, were really wanting and willing to give and give.
Oh yeah.
But when you talk about them receiving, was a completely—
Oh, it's a nightmare.
Oh my gosh. You know, it was all like, it's not even, it's night and day. Like they didn't even belong. I couldn't believe it. Uh, it's to receive, to get people just to believe it, just to be okay that it's going okay.
Uh-huh. Yeah.
It was, it was amazing. It was, yeah, it blew my mind because it was just like, it's just going well, just let it go well. And they just, you could tell there was just so much anxiety, there was so much fidgeting, there was just so much uncomfortableness with that, that like couldn't be the reality, right? That couldn't be what's actually happening, that it's okay. And it's okay that it's not Constantly filled with drama and chaos, and, and a lot of people are hooked on that. And when you start talking about chemistry, this is one of the big dangers of chemistry because you can become an addict to it. Because really what chemistry is doing is it's that dopamine, right? If you want to get scientific with it, you know, I mean, that's their—
Well, it's oxy— yeah, it is. Yeah, it's oxytocin bonding.
Exactly. You know, and there's that. You can like say we've kind of gone down that road before, but the point is it's when you start talking about trying to understand chemistry, but especially for a lot of the guys that were were kind of kind of confused about this because a lot of the guys were thinking that essentially if she's not all over you. day one, then there's no really hope, that, that almost they have no choice now.
That's not— yeah, that's not accurate. So that's a good, a good point.
Right. And, and no, that's not the case. I, I would see chemistry as more as a prerequisite, uh, more than anything in my mind anyways, if I was talking to men. Because it's not so much, fellas, that I'm telling you that That you're pretty much blocked off from any opportunity with a woman who doesn't have this for you. What I'm saying is that if you're wanting— you're putting your energy into a lot of women for a long period of time that you're trying to build, it's almost like you're trying to build a house on sand, if that makes sense.
Right.
Uh, it— you're trying to get her to a place That as a result of her not having chemistry for you, even if she wanted to— and I know Elizabeth said this last time, like, there's a lot of times women really want to like you like that.
Yeah. Right?
They really would love— I mean, there's so many guys in a woman's friend zone that, I mean, I know a woman has probably had this conversation with at least one guy in her friend zone over the years, like, man, you know, if there was just chemistry there, it would almost be like I was in heaven.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, but she can't. Even if she wanted to, she can't. You know, it just doesn't work that way. It's not— these attraction isn't— doesn't work that way. It's not this, uh, rational thing.
So, right. And we, and we don't say to ourselves, it's because he said this thing or he did this thing. It's literally a chemical reaction in our bodies that will or will not work for us. So, it's not, you know, that we are holding out on something or not giving you something because of some character flaw of yours. We would, you know, it would be wonderful if we could say to ourselves, okay, I'm gonna be completely rational about this and I'm gonna find somebody and it's gonna be all gonna make sense. We're gonna make a list and there's gonna be a check block for every trait that I want and I'm gonna go down the list and it's gonna, you know, and then I'm, you know, when he fulfills all of these, then it's gonna be perfect. I mean, we are not able to do that and men aren't either, but it's not because of a character defect on your part if she just isn't feeling it for you. She might just not be feeling it for you.
Right.
Everybody I know has men in their life who they would just kill to have chemistry for and we just don't. Unfortunately, it's not— but the thing about dating And the reason why, you know, we don't on day one know we have chemistry for you or not. There is not a final determination that we've made, you know, right in the beginning that we even know. And we don't know until we get more physical with you sometimes. I just mean kissing or, you know, something a little bit, you know, more than kissing. And so we can't really make that determination early on. And so we might act real ambivalent and uninterested in you in the beginning. And it might— it may or may not mean that we have chemistry. But I would caution anybody from getting out their Magic 8 Ball in the first month and like trying to figure out if she has chemistry for you without doing anything physical, because we don't know until we, you know, kiss you or, or experience your chemicals, because that's what, that's what it really is.
And the thing about this, especially for for the fellas, I mean, even on the first date, I mean, there's so many times when women literally say this. Like, it was great, but I just don't feel it. That's literally why I titled this show or this particular show this title because. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a woman say, I just don't feel it, and guys have that gloss look over their face, and they don't really— that doesn't mean— they don't take that as seriously as I think they need to.
Well, see, I think that women need to go on at least 3 dates with a guy before they make that determination.
Oh, I agree.
If you don't give it at least 3 tries, you're doing yourself a disservice. Because first date, everybody acts kooky. There's no— we might not even get to the point where there's a hint of wanting to kiss each other. Second date, people are starting to pull it together. We're starting to see whether there's any common interest. Third date, you can maybe get to the point where you'd kiss somebody or experience a little bit. And before that, there's not— we shouldn't be calling things too quickly. If somebody's You know, making a legitimate effort and they seem like a kind person, you know, give them the 3 tries. You know, I make my people give 3 tries unless there is some major thing that is wrong. And that's important to do because without that opportunity, we can't find out if we have chemistry for you. And we might not like you no matter what you do for the first 3 dates. But, you know, we'll start to see whether there's anything there. And people aren't giving each other enough of an opportunity.
Right, because a big thing about this, like, again, when it kind of goes back to our new dynamic or a new paradigm that we're in as a result of online dating, people want chemistry just from your picture.
Good luck to you. That's not how it works.
And that's how we're determining chemistry. I mean, it's— we're trying immediately with you just by being able to look at you. If you're not our type, we don't even want to bother, right?
Yeah.
Uh, and so again, how realistic is it for— to get people en masse to try to, to go about this? Uh, well, again, pain is a— is always the best teacher, right? Because at the end of the day, if you don't listen to it beforehand, pain is gonna—
you're not gonna— yeah.
You know, it'll teach you.
It will. It will.
And so I don't really, you know, worry about that, because I understand that you won't— you can ignore me, but you can't ignore that.
Right. Well, and then you'll come back and get in and really get the message once you've been beat up a little bit.
All right.
But there's also, you know, another thing that people don't— never think about is desensitizing themselves to pleasure. Now, I have people all the time who, you know, they started out in, you know, they came for coaching and they were in the place that most people who come to me are in, which is that they're very upset and unhappy. And then in about 4 to 6 weeks, they start to be happy. And they then get anxiety about how happy they are. No matter what, no matter who it is, no matter what the situation is like, they become uneasy about the fact that they're happy. And they start saying things like, I don't know, should I change this? I don't know, what should I do different? I'm like, you have been doing all the things that have been making you happy and now you're happy and that's a terrifying experience for you. So why don't we just sit with that and not do anything? And then they universally say, maybe I should change something after that conversation. Because they feel uncomfortable and our reaction to feeling uncomfortable is that we should then do something. So if you're feeling good and it's your— what you're doing is working, don't stop doing that because you feel uncomfortable. You want to desensitize yourself to the feeling of happiness and comfort and enjoyment, because if you don't, you will continually ruin situations because you just feel a natural pressure every time things are going well.
And You know, there's that saying, you got to become comfortable with being uncomfortable, right?
Yes. Get really comfortable with it. It's magic, but it's hard.
It is hard. It's an acquired taste, so to speak. Yeah, that's true.
That's a good point. And, you know, you, you can either pick being uncomfortable because you're doing the right things in the right direction and all of that is scary and difficult, or you can be uncomfortable Well, because you haven't gone in the right direction and your life is in shambles. You can pick, but you get either one. You don't get just to sit and do nothing. That will in fact— you'll decay there too. Right.
Yeah, it's, uh, it— and a lot of times when I see people, when they're having that experience you just, um, described, is when they have been on that track of one-sided chemistry, right? And most people are used to one-sided chemistry, whether that be them having it for somebody and them not having it back, or, or vice versa, right? And like I said last show, the number one thing, complaint I've heard, uh, or top 5— I don't know if I say number one all the time, but we'll say top 5, just give myself a disclaimer— uh, top 5 things I've heard women say is, why do the guys that I I want don't want me, and the ones that want me I don't want. That is so many women's normal. I can't even— like, to me, I don't— you know, that's, that's the normal. And so, like Elizabeth said, when they find a situation where they actually have a legit chemistry for a guy and it's being reciprocated, and then you— because with that, with that, uh, Brings about his resonance.
And all your demons.
And, and all of that, because you're so used to— I don't say so used to failure, but you're so used to it.
Struggle.
That's that struggle, that, that wall. You're so used to hitting that wall every single time, and now you become familiar with it. And again, and I've said many times before, your biggest enemy is the, is is what's familiar to you. It's what's comfortable. It's what's safe. Because you'd be surprised how comfortable we can get with things that we don't even like.
Right.
You'd be surprised how comfortable people can get with just, you know, because we're adaptive. Our species is very adaptive. Why we went from 1 to 8 billion and built all the things that we built and created, you know, the world that we've created— we were adaptable. We were able to adapt to our environments. And so that same Uh, trait, that quality that has us, you know, build empires and, and societies can also keep us stuck, just like so many other things in life can keep us, uh, stuck in another way. Just simple fact that, again, you're not going to be able to have success in this arena if you remain in your comfort zone, if you remain doing what you've always done. Because like Elizabeth said, that once that trigger happens You're going to want to change something to get back to being comfortable. Even if that being comfortable is something you hate, like being alone, right? Or just being in a chaotic situation. It's very hard for people to, to get— what do they do? To wean off of that, right?
And people don't like pain, but they want it.
Right.
Like, they want it. They really do want it. We want to be frustrated and struggle and work for stuff. And when we don't have to struggle and work for stuff, we feel really weird and like we don't deserve it. So, you know, when, when something's going well and somebody is treating you well and you're not used to that, you need to look within and let them continue to come near you. Let them continue to come near you, even if, you know, you aren't necessarily sold on the situation, you need to desensitize yourself to the experience. Because if you don't, when, you know, if you decide that, you know, say that they're the best thing since sliced bread down the road, if you don't, you know, give yourself the opportunity to get used to good things and get used to having a good situation, you will not get it when it finally arrives. And because you will drive it away, you will— sabotage it, you will do something, you will gravitate toward pain or do things, and then you will call me and ask me how to get him back.
Right.
And I will help you get him back, but before I help you, I have to make you happy. And then we're going to have to desensitize you toward pain. So— or no, desensitize you toward happiness. So you might as well start now before you ruin that great relationship or You know, leave that person that you love or do whatever it is that will— you— because your demons will come up and they'll say, oh, this isn't— you know, this is too good to be true. This other person's gonna leave me. I better go. Or cheat on them or do whatever it is. Treat them like dirt. You know.
Mm-hmm.
So that they leave you. That's really common.
Very common.
You know, you just treat somebody like crap and then they leave you and then you can blame them for, you know, following through with your, um, you know, directive. Because they were the one who pulled the trigger, not you. So it was their fault. Like, then you can just continue to make it their situation. So, you know, desensitize yourself toward pleasure, you know, give yourself pleasure. And I don't mean, you know, like, oh, I went to Starbucks. I mean, you have to genuinely sit and start enjoying experiences and creating a life that you actually enjoy. Because if you don't, nobody will want to be around you because you will continually treat them like dirt. And you won't even know it. It sucks. You won't even know. You know, some of the most amazing clients I've ever had came to me after treating people like dirt and not even realizing it.
Right.
You know, and that's just— it's a sad thing because I never tell them that they were treating people like dirt. I just make them happy and then they stop that. But it's natural to let all of those things fall away. Once you finally, um, you know, come to a place where you have to do something and change or, you know, and try a different lifetime.
You know, it's interesting too, like, uh, just hearing you talk about that is I remember some time back and I was reading this thing and they were talking about pickup artists, right? And one of the things that pickup artists were really struggling with or were kind of shocked by is that They would have their clients, right? These guys would come to them and they go through their process and a lot of the guys were being able to get to a point where they can go out and bring a girl home.
Okay, step one.
Yeah, it was the whole top of the mountain to a lot of these guys. But what was happening is that they were getting the girls home and they couldn't get it up. And we weren't talking about, you know, oh, we're talking about guys in their 20s, right?
Right. Largely.
And so, like, what's going on? They don't understand.
Yeah, the biology isn't the problem, it's the mind game. Right.
The biology wasn't the problem, because we realize a lot of— we realize now that for them, it was never actually about getting a girl. It was And this— they were such in a place where it was just so much about the validation that they could, that actually going into the act of it was never really the actual goal to begin with. And so they were actually—
It isn't. It's so funny to me. Right.
They were actually very shocked by this. It was like, no, if you know anything about men, even other men, like, men were shocked about It's like, no, the majority of men, this is the issue, or this is the situation. You know, it was never about it. It was just the fact that the ego, the masculinity, needed it to be validated. And this is how society for men, this is how it's validated.
Mm-hmm.
And so it was just the fact that they got it to happen and they, and they got their fix. And so when it was actually time to do the thing, their real selves came out and they weren't even actually— they couldn't do anything.
They weren't even interested in the activity.
No. And so they go back out there and they want to do it again. And it's like, wait a minute, why do you want to do this again? What's the issue? But they realized it was never— this is what they were actually paying for. And a lot of the guys didn't even realize this is what they were actually paying these guys to teach them, is just how to get that validation. How to get that sense of, uh, that your, your ego has been satiated, even though this is an issue that's never been satiated. It can never satiate like that. But again—
Oh yeah, external forces can never, never fix that.
No.
You will— there will always be another top of the mountain to climb to. Right.
Once you get to 10, now 11 is just one on the next level.
Absolutely.
And so we have to understand that for a lot of us, or for a lot of the guys, when you start talking about— because a lot of guys are coming into this thinking, well, you know, I want a girlfriend. I was like, well, hold up, you know. And like you said, like, why? What is it? Do you really want a girlfriend? Do you— what are you actually looking for? I wanted to be hot. Well, okay, but, you know, because they've never gotten past the just possessing it, right? To them, the possessiveness was the ultimate goal. They didn't know what— everything after that, they had no clue because they never allowed their mind to get past that idea that there's life on the other end of a wide stand.
Well, imperfection is empty.
Perfection is empty, and it's unattainable.
Right. Not only is it empty, but it's also unattainable.
Right.
But if you're saying to yourself that I'll finally arrive when I do X, Y, and Z, or if I finally get this person to love me, then I'll make it. If I finally do this thing, most of the time you'll find that once you do it, it's very uncomfortable and upsetting, and then people get really depressed about that. Because they didn't realize that they're like a dog chasing a car. They finally got what their goal was and they don't know that that's not gonna make them happy.
Right.
I don't know. And I think we all fall for that. You know, we all have, you know, bigger and better and, you know, about certain things. And it's just a process of like taming that and understanding what it is about. Is it glamour? that you want with that person is the— you have to keep asking yourself why. Why do you want this trait? Why do you want this? Why do you want her to be pretty? What does it matter? What does it matter? And then you keep digging deeper because if you say, okay, I want her to be pretty because— why? Because other people will think she's hot? And then what will that mean to you? Why do you want that?
Right.
Why do you want him to be rich? Because then, you know, then we'll be able to do rich things. Well, okay. Well, why do you want to do that? Is it because you really want to, you know, have somebody, a Sherpa, take you to the top of Mount Everest? Or is it because you want to be able to show other people that you're able to do that? You know, why do you want— any attainment of a thing is an experience of chasing glamour.
And see, this is what— when you start going down that path, when you start asking yourselves these questions, you start really trying to figure out why it is that you're doing what you are doing or you're pursuing what you're pursuing. This is what takes this area out of the evolutionary and into the human spirit realm.
Yes.
Because the human spirit realm is where love resides and where integrity and character quality resides in this area. But if you don't get deeper into these things and really start to self-reflect on why it is that you are— the why, the why of it takes it out. Because if you don't start, if you don't start asking yourself these questions, then you're just going to be an animal. Because I'm telling you right now, biology has its own strategy, and it is strong, and it is potent, and it will completely run your life. Not only in the area of relationships or dating, but every other area. That's what it— that's how we got from 1 person to 8 billion, you know, because it is very good at what it does. And what—
and all you need to do to somebody to completely change their personality is change the chemistry in their body. So really, I mean, we can be totally different people tomorrow if our body chemistry changes. And it's important to recognize that you don't really want to be trying to rely on that system to take care of you.
Right. Because we swear— I mean, this is what can be a lot or very disappointing for a lot of people, especially a lot of women, because it takes it out of the romantic and it takes it out of the destiny and just that allure stage. Because when you tell somebody that I could, you know, if I put test— like, ask a female bodybuilder how different she feels once now that she's using testosterone so she can build up her muscles. Now she's wanting to have sex every day. Now she's more aggressive. Like, yeah, welcome to my world, right? And they start to understand, like, oh, you know what I mean? This isn't just— because again, a lot of our behavior is chemical, and you can change somebody's whole personality. If I put, you know, put dopamine in you, I can make you start— I can make You feel like you're walking on air, right? I mean, there's a lot of things that we can do, and I'm not saying there isn't an element of mystique, of, of just the, the irrational, that things just happen. I mean, there is an operating system for that, but again, that operating system is a lot harder to activate because it does require something from you. It does require effort. It does require you having to cultivate it. Uh, the operating system that just runs our biology? Nah, you grow. This is, this is what we all start out with. We have to mature on our own, you know. That's life as a teacher, because we all start out just saying, hey, I want her because she's hot, because that's all my biology cares about, you know.
It's resources, resources, right?
Resources. He's cute, he has— I mean, we all start out. So that's why 7th, you know, high schoolers and middle schoolers are just raw, right? This is why they could be, right?
And they do. It's really It's fascinating to watch them because they operate so primally.
So primally.
It's almost— well, the thing about it is that most people, they went through that phase very unconsciously and you can't not be because of what's going on in your frontal lobe during that development time. But when people then learn about dating and they realize that their behavior is a little crazy and then they try to pull it back and they start acting really unnatural, they have less success than they did at that crazy time when they were acting really primal. It's interesting because they're like, okay, well, when I was 16, I had all the luck because I was just doing all the animal things.
Right.
Then I had a heartbreak and now nobody likes me. The thing about it is, is it's like you have to then understand what what parts of that were actually valuable. You know, there's parts of, you know, the unchecked masculinity that are very valuable later on.
Right.
Like that, I, you know, then if I'm coaching, then they end up kind of like, okay, remember this time, you know, okay, we don't want to act like that, but we want to remember what it was like to just do unbridled pursuing and then try to get a handle on some of that. Or, you know, what it was like to actually feel and experience your emotions because as we get a little bit older, we stop Really, you know, we start tamping them down. We do things to, to, um, numb them out. And those emotional displays and the experience of emotion can be very valuable, actually.
Absolutely. And that's all maturity is. That's really all maturity is, is balance, right? When I think of a mature person— that's my definition of it anyways— but when I think of a mature person, I don't think of somebody who makes no mistakes. I don't think about somebody who's perfect. I don't think about doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, and doesn't hang around people that do. That's That's not what I think about. I think about people who understand, even instinctually, that there needs to be a harmony between these 2 aspects of us, right?
Right.
There needs to be— rejecting one or the other will have you suffer, I promise you, you know? And this is one of the big things that I wish, uh, we all could— because human nature is always extreme, right? I want to do all of this or all of that. I want it to be all this or all that, right? And as you grow up, like Elizabeth was talking about, you start having these experiences where, yes, you're going purely after your— that type of person that is just— that does it. But then you get your heart broken, and then you, you know, you got to take a step back and like, wait a minute, right? Hold up, you know, there's, you know, this— I can't just, you know, we gotta readjust some things. And that's—
Right.
A lot of the times where pain is almost a conduit between these 2 operating systems, because that's what triggers you recognizing that not only there are 2, or there are, you know, that there's, there's a different version of you that functions in a different way, but that you need to incorporate it. Because—
Right. And be mindful of it.
And be very mindful of it, because I don't want anybody who Who doesn't, doesn't have both of these things, like I said, within harmony with each other. Because if you have the guy who's just functioning in the place, because a lot of guys who get stuck in the friend zone— again, I say the friend zone, it's really the friend zone in the sense of you're wanting something more, you know.
Well, the friend zone is only bad if you deem it so.
I mean, a lot of guys are going to deem it bad if they're wanting the girl more than just friends. Right.
Yeah, exactly. Like, that's why it's even a term, is because there's a conflict, right?
There's a conflict. There's, there's something— again, it's— can men and women be friends with each other? Absolutely. You know, it's very possible. I know I've said on the show that I don't think I can, but I didn't specify it. I meant in this scenario of that conflict, not just—
Or, or like, okay, we've, you know, we dated for 6 years and now, you know, the, the fire's Torches have come out. Well, could you be friends with your ex? Well, not in that case. But yeah, certainly men and women can be friends. But when I was younger and more primal, I didn't think so.
Right.
You know, when the hormones are raging, no, you can't really be friends until later when you realize that all we're doing now is just getting to enjoy somebody longer and putting our pants on. Like, really, like, if you have a good solid friendship with somebody, you get more of them over time. And you You just have to sacrifice the part where you deal with the sex. So it can be very valuable to be open to friendships with, you know, the opposite sex because you would otherwise not get to experience them.
Absolutely. I mean, that's really the case. I mean, even if you're just talking about strong acquaintance with somebody, I mean, again, you can adjust this to your ability to be able to handle it, obviously.
To be a human. Strong chemistry for them, you probably will not be able to maintain a friendship in a normal way.
Oh no, absolutely not.
If you want them, good luck to you. You should not try to do that to yourself because you'll just fry your neurochemistry, really. You should stay away from people you have strong chemistry for and not use the F-word with them.
Well, again, like, that's the biggest thing because we talk about chemistry. There is a level of chemistry that is— it's, oh my gosh, because there is chemistry that's necessary That's what I was going to say. Like, what I'm talking about here, what we're talking about here, there's the chemistry that's so necessary for there to be a healthy, uh, you know, relationship between 2 people, right? But there is a level of chemistry that will just completely destroy your whole everything. I mean, I've seen people— we've all seen people, we've all experienced it at least once— where it was just raging so hard that it— and that most likely that was probably your worst experience, you know, slash heartbreak, because there was just so much there. Yeah.
When your body goes through an actual physical withdrawal, if you're a woman, that's not a fun time. But on the other hand, you know, if you have exes or whatever, people that you didn't have much chemistry for, it's very possible to have a friendship with them. But I mean, you have to know the difference. Like, if you had, you know, the crazy sex with somebody and you knew that that was reliable, and then the rest of the time you kind of wanted to kill each other, that's not a friendship you should try to have. It won't work because you can't maintain, you know, the kind of rational behavior that you need to be a good friend in that case. You know, you're gonna be constantly angling to either, you know, eat them or consume them in some way. You got to stay away from stuff that really is not going to work. If you have ever had the thought that you wanted to just consume them or also angrily beat them to death, you should probably not try to maintain friendships.
I mean, it's so natural for guys to approach women from a place of qualification. The dancing monkey almost type of a thing.
We're qualifying you? Is that what you mean?
No, we're trying to qualify ourselves to Oh yeah. So yeah, this is why when a guy gets really frustrated in the friend zone, it's because he keeps trying to qualify himself to create chemistry. He wouldn't say that this is what he's trying to accomplish, right? And again, it goes back to a way of thinking for us men that seems so natural, which most of us wouldn't even recognize until now. If you hear me saying this now, you're You're seeing it now. You're thinking about it because we don't understand why we can't qualify ourselves into chemistry. I know we talked about how negotiating desire— this is what we're— this isn't alone. This is what we're talking about. Uh, because really what I'm trying— my goal for men is I'm not trying to say that this is something that you have to be It's not a straitjacket situation. It's just that you, a lot of us will spend a lot of energy again into a lot of women that it's, your points are worth one. You're doing 100 point worth things and they're worth one to her. And there's nothing that, that, that, that she can really do about that. Obviously we said before, but the The fact is that you think that somehow you're going to qualify yourself into 100.
Yes. All right. Well, and you have to get rid of the idea of brownie points and like, you know, we're gonna get an award if we get to the end of the, of the race with somebody. And that's on either side, so that men or women, you, you do not qualify for better treatment if you do more stuff.
No.
Either way, like, if you bake him enough cookies, you do not, you know, finally reach the finish line where he likes you. If you give him enough sex, or give each other enough sex, I mean, that's not male or female. Either way, you are not going to reach the finish line because you got enough brownie points. It doesn't work like that.
It does not work that way. That is not how—
We are not bartering. It doesn't— attraction doesn't work on the barter system.
Well, and that's exactly it. Barter, all the synonyms with each other, like negotiating. Anytime, you know, they're all the same, right? It's— we're all doing the same thing when we have someone that we really like, uh, and that's the biggest thing because you really like someone, you're really interested in somebody. But again, scarcity mindset, because if you don't get over this then you are going to spend so much of your energy. Those different guys, like I said, energy is a huge, huge thing, right, for us and how, and how we go about it. And so you'll see guys just putting all of this energy into, into trying to do this, and it never works. And they see the guys that the girl that they're interested in is going for, and You'll see this all over the internet. Like, why do girls always like jerks? Why do girls always like assholes? Why do girls? You know, that's what they that's how they respond to it thinking. And then what they do is try to become an asshole themselves because they think it's the assholeness that is attractive. And it's they don't get it. It's like it's not him being an asshole. The assholeness is just a result of the fact that he has no chemistry for her. So because the guy who you're calling an asshole or Even who she's calling an asshole doesn't necessarily have to be an actual asshole, unlike we talked about last time, right? It's not.
No, it's just ambivalent. He's just uninterested. I think we mentioned this last time.
Yeah, exactly. He's just uninterested. That's all he has to do. If she has chemistry for a guy who's uninterested, that is what's gonna have her claim that he's an asshole, right? And then you, on the other end, you're sitting here as a guy, you're looking at, yeah, but I'm doing all these things. and he's not doing it, so what's the problem? Like, again, this is why we're having this show, so we can throw all of that out the window for whatever reason. Like, look, if somebody is your evolutionary ideal, you are going to have chemistry for them, i.e., your type, right? And everybody's is different. Are there some things that are consistent among all men and all women?
Absolutely.
I.e., uh, height when it comes to women, right? Most women want a guy, if nothing else, that's taller than she is, right?
Right, waist ratio, for real, right?
Women didn't all get together one day and say, this is something we're all gonna want, right? It just seems it's firmware. It comes with it, you know? That's just the difference. That's just— it's a part of our evolution. That's our evolu— a woman's evolution, how she's had to come up and survive All of human history has told her that to be protected— every time you hear a woman and you ask her about height, why does she want someone high or taller, or what's— why does she like taller guys, 98% of the time they're always talking about something to do with safety.
Okay.
It makes me feel safe, right? That is purely evolution. That hurt— that's how you survive, by connecting with men who are, are big and strong, who can fight tigers, right? Or other men. Right. And so again, there's just this, this thing that is just when you talk about when you have, when a woman has chemistry for me, I understand if Elizabeth has chemistry for me, I realized I didn't do anything.
No, you just, it's part of your body that somehow it works for my body.
Exactly. For whatever reason I do it for her.
Does not mean that you're my twin flame. It does not mean that we are It does not mean anything except that our bodies are really excited to make babies. Right.
Some— there's something in our genes that seem to— that will create a good, healthy, strong baby.
Yeah, it'll be an awesome kid.
It'll be an awesome kid. We would have— when you have 2 people have crazy feelings for each other, they're gonna have— and you can even look at this statistically, you know. I think there was— I think there was some— there was a woman who actually did this. Like, you really do have better babies babies or people that, in terms of health and all those type of things.
Yeah, I would expect that. Nature doesn't want puppy mills.
No, nature knows what it's doing, right? But that's all it's saying. And so when the guy looks at the asshole and thinks, oh, he's assholeness and he's a jerk and he's, you know, this and that, and that's why he gets girls, it's like, no, it's just for whatever reason, the women who are responding to him like that, they just do.
Well, and there's also an element of intermittent reinforcement. So when somebody is responding some of the time and it's on— it's why casinos are even a thing. It's because when we are reinforced on a schedule that is inconsistent, we are much more interested in whatever it is that we're interacting with than when we are not. And so when people are inconsistent, which is perfect when you are uninterested, Oh, I might respond today, I might not, who cares? That's intermittent reinforcement for the other person. And so people get addicted to frustration because the part of their brain that the same lights up when you get a notification on Facebook also lights up when the person that you've been pursuing finally says hello. Oh shit, you get the big chemical hit. There's another thing going on there sometimes when you don't have confirmed chemistry, and that is that you are now addicted to frustration and you've gotten interested in the glamour of the other person. So, you know, it can be both things, or it can be only one of them at the same time. Right.
Yeah. And this is what's— and see, this should be good to you fellas.
Yes. You know, this is actually to everybody, because now you know why everybody's acting kooky, whether, you know, you're on the receiving end or the giving Right.
Yeah, because when I really became aware of this— because you can function in something and not even really know why it's—
it—
you're, you know, working the way it's working for you. But once you understand it— because what that does is that when you have a woman respond to you like that and you realize you didn't do anything, that's the woman you can give to. And I know Elizabeth has always talked about how, like, women are— have this, you know, are Are these kind of that metaphor of a box, and they give you access to that box? What chemistry is, is that key. And so when a woman has that chemistry for you, it almost is a key to her box. That's when your small becomes huge. This is why I— there's a guy right now that could text Elizabeth and she wouldn't think nothing about it, right? There could be nothing wrong with the guy. It's just like, oh, it's just John. Cool.
Yeah, there's a— yeah, there is.
I'm not thinking about it. But there's another guy that if he just blew in her direction, she would think about it for 6 months.
Yeah, there is, right? There absolutely is.
And it has nothing to do— because, you know, well, you know, Bill doesn't have to be any better than John in any kind of way. Doesn't have to be nicer than John. Doesn't have to be— you know, it could be the case, but it doesn't have to be right now. Again, Bill and John both can come to the situation and look at it and be like— Bill can be thinking, oh, I'm the man, like, I'm just like, I'm just, you know, just that kind of guy. It's like, no, no, not necessarily, right? And John could be looking at Bill and just be looking at him like, man, I want to be like him, right? Or there's something he's doing, I need to figure out what he's doing to get this. And it's— and again, it's just the wrong way to approach it because—
Right.
You want You want to engage with the women who respond to you like that. Because when you do, you get a— you have— that's when, as a guy, you feel like you're in heaven. Because it doesn't take all of this craziness, things that you're having to do. You can be yourself because she just likes you. For whatever reason, she just likes you. When a girl just likes you, it's like you can just be yourself. And anything that you do that's nice— I mean, you don't want to take advantage of this.
No.
But when you're— if you're mature enough to be able to recognize the gift that it is, then you will have a version of a woman that you've never seen before. And see, I assume that most—
you have to be able to receive it. You have to be able to receive it.
You have to be able to receive it. You have to be able to receive it. Because when you can, man, it just— like, I just wish I could give every guy at least that experience once. I mean, to expose, be able to like look at it for like a couple minutes.
You can see how it says difference between spamming I mean, well, and the other thing is, if somebody's had that experience with you and they love you back, they'll come back over and over and over.
Oh my God, you can't—
It'll pain you, it will drive you insane, but they will continue. They will, you know, reach out after 5 years and drive you crazy, and you'll be wondering why they're doing this, because they don't know what they are losing when they get rid of it, first of all. And second, people have a real problem with joy, like we were just talking about. You know, they have a real problem with deservingness. So if they don't feel like they deserve that kind of behavior, they will freak out and run away, and then they'll be back and, you know, drive you crazy for a time. Right.
Because I guarantee you, as a guy, the first time you experience this, even if it's from a girl that you're extremely attracted to physically, it—
you—
I have a 90% chance that you will Run away from it.
Every time. Yeah, almost every time.
Almost every time.
It's a rare human that won't.
It's something that if you're not conscious about, intentional about, because it's such a shock to your system because it's so different than what you're used to, most likely, you know, that it just— you won't—
it kind of breaks your brain a little bit.
Yeah, it's like an overload.
Yeah, right.
You won't know what to do. It would just seem so unfamiliar. And there's that word again, like, again, something that— it'll be unfamiliar. And if you cannot receive the unfamiliar, you are going to stay stuck. You will keep walking around this mountain day in, day out, 40 years, you know.
And she will find somebody else.
And she'll find somebody else. Yeah, because holding your dick in the corner wondering what happened, because this chemistry thing is not It's not a lifetime—
No, it wears out in 2 years for women. Then we wonder why the hell you're wandering over here because you had that one magnificent experience 5 years ago and we don't get it. It wears off. We wear out of it. The thing about women is that once we've kicked you out of the container, it's hard for us to let you back in. If you keep this whole in or out weird behavior going, You will lose us, and then you'll call me and try to get me to help you get them back. And that's okay, and that's what I do, and I don't mind doing that. It's just that unfortunately we just can't. This is why we can't have nice things.
Like, this is why I can't have nice things.
But but you know for the women listening, we have a hard time understanding this behavior in men. And we have a hard time recognizing it when it's happening because there's been so many other times when maybe the guy was really disinterested in us or really didn't like us. And so, easy to say, you know, to close the door and be like, well, okay, you know, you clearly don't love me or whatever. And the guy's really just doing this weird dance where he can't appreciate you. And he deserves to lose you if he can't finally pull his head out of his ass. But if he eventually does, you know, he probably will be sincere when he returns.
And that's the thing. I mean, it's— we have the tendency to believe everybody is healthy.
And that we are somehow missing out, or that other people have the answers that we don't have. That's, that's the funniest thing to me is like people think that the other person in the relationship has all of these answers that nobody has. And so they wait for the other person to make all these decisions like, well, do they like me? I don't know. And the point is that the other person isn't sitting there having any answers. They're wondering the same thing about you.
Right.
Like, oh, what does she think about me right now? And the girl's thinking, well, what is he thinking about me right now? You can decide what he's thinking about you by not being weird very easily.
And it's funny because—
Inside the Matrix. Sorry.
No, I mean, like, I'll hear a girl say, you know, well, if God likes you, you know, he'll call you. And I'm in my head, I'm like, well, yeah, unless he's scared, or unless there's a million other things that could be happening that could prevent him from calling you. As in, the fact is there could be reasons that he may not be doing this. I mean, not point about this whole specific— or I'm not talking about, you know, obviously the specific situation. It's just the principle of the fact that we have to give Uh, we don't give ourselves permission to be human, and so naturally we don't give other people permission to be human. So we think if they're not doing what we probably wouldn't even do given the situation— and a lot of people, like Elizabeth said, miss out on things. Just simple fact that sometimes people just need some more time, you know. Sometimes people just need to work through their own, you know, like, I don't want a guy's friend. Well, it's like, well, every guy—
What if he knows everything on day 1? I mean, is he omniscient? Geez, that's a high standard to reach.
Exactly. And we kind of gotten to this point, but usually, like, it's always the guys who are the worst, like, on the lowest totem pole, who have the highest standards. Have you ever figured out why that is? Why the guys who seem to, uh— I know there's kind of a joke about, like, the incels are always one, like, if you have some kind of, you know, body imperfection, it's like it's a turn-off for them.
Why?
Because the harder and more hateful you are to yourself, the more you're going to try and balance that out with perfection in another person.
Oh, that's a great point. Yes, absolutely.
Yeah. And so again, it's funny because I hear women say all the time, like, a lot of times the guys that are really considered objectively the most attractive are a lot of times really nice.
Yeah, they are. And you don't expect that when you're a teenager out in the world.
No.
Or if you're me. I thought that nice— well, because there's a— I got bullied pretty heavily. So I expected that like you couldn't trust anybody, but you particularly could not trust popular attractive people. And what if you become attractive? Well, then you're really screwed because that means you're also awful. But then if you take that out and then you start dating with that mindset, like you can not trust attractive people, just imagine what you're then doing. You're now like, okay, well, what do I have to settle for? As your number one where you're starting. And so, you know, we don't always know why we're like, you know, we've handicapped the other group in some way because we have this weird belief about them, you know.
Right. Like, oh, she has to be super attractive or Because we spend so much time in our own heads and thinking about these things over and over again without really discussing them with other people.
Or even writing them down. Like, if you write it down and read it out loud, it sounds so absurd and you'll get over so many issues.
Right.
Like, one, one, actually one exercise is to— it's really helpful— write down every criticism that you can come up with about yourself. Write it out on paper and then read them out loud. And it is the funniest experience, you know, because all those things like, you know, my nose is so big nobody's ever gonna love me, um, like once you read them out loud, it sounds like mean celebrity tweets and you can laugh about it and move on.
And see, that's a— to me personally, like, I'm used to being liked. And so that's, that's my crazy confidence. But I have a naive confidence. And I remember, and I learned this, this is intentional, right? Because I realized that it's better for me to assume you're going to like me and find out that you don't than to assume that you don't and never have a chance ever again. And I'll never have a chance if I'm coming at it from that angle regardless.
Yeah.
And so it's, it's one of those things that you— there's so many signals and, and, and energy that we put out there that we're not even aware of strictly because of our own disposition, our own countenance, right?
Well, we create our own reality, really. We really mean in the— in, in every sense of the word, in a deep way that we don't even realize until you start digging around.
Just go on the internet. And look how people talk on the internet. You're just— and they'll be saying things and you'll be— the thing that will come out of your mouth is, what world do you live in? Because it could be so warped. And you realize this person has just so created this narrative that it doesn't matter if anything good comes in. It doesn't matter if anything changes externally because, you know, internally they are just so arthritic, you know, in their thinking. That it's— you lost before you even started. And so many people, when it comes to relationships, have lost before they ever even started because of the way they think about themselves. See?
Oh, it's awful.
It's— I mean, there's just no— there's certain things that you're just no getting around. There's certain things that you have to go through. There's certain things that you're just gonna have to do the work for. Because if you're not gonna—
I've seen people fight for other people Oh, everybody fights harder for other people than they do themselves. I mean, if you didn't, that would be really helpful, actually. Like, it's super healthy if you have enough of a self-esteem and enough of an image to fight harder for yourself than you would for somebody else, but it's not common.
So...
People generally think that they're flawed and that everybody else has it figured out.
Uh, so I think, you know what, I think we're probably at our time. Probably can do 20. I'll just— yeah, let's do 20 more minutes. Is that all right with you?
Yeah, that's fine with me. All right.
And we'll start this, this article because I think we've kind of covered a lot of that stuff well enough.
Um, yeah, this article is something.
But yeah, this article is very interesting. Like I said, uh, a listener sent this. To me, and we were going to talk about it last time. I planned on talking about last time, but you know how Elizabeth and I get down. So we just kind of had to prolong a little bit. But I'm glad we kind of got all that stuff out there. But but yes, there is this article that was sent to me by a listener. It's very interesting. It was written on Medium by a lady named Penelope Lippman, and it is. Titled I'm Strong, Single Independent Woman, and I'm Sad. And so I thought it had a lot of interesting things to talk about. I'm curious what Elizabeth thinks about a lot of these things too, because obviously it was written by women and by a woman and her experience. And so we'll just start to go through this. Obviously we're probably gonna have to finish the next show or two because there's pretty much something in every kind of part of this that is, I think, necessary to talk about. So we'll just kind of go through it slowly, and then we'll just— when we finish, we finish. That sound all right?
Sounds great to me.
All right, um, so here we go. You're so clever, they said. Bright as a button, so mature, a pleasure to teach. I could do anything if I set my mind to it. I was top of the class, queen of the heap. My mission in life: do well in school, please parents and teachers, succeed. At what or why? I never asked myself. My currency was my mind. This valued me, ranked me high. I was smart, a good child. I would have a good life. They never tell you about the gnawing emptiness of being alone, pushing 30, your hyper-intellectualism, a major turn-off for every guy who Gets, uh, for, for every guy who gets close. They never explained that as a girl child, one of the most important phases in your life is the reproductive phase, when your body goes operating on a mission for a man. And without one, you're anxious, lost, hopeless, alone, a failure, stunted like a child. Something kicks in in a profound bodily way. It didn't happen to me until I was 27, but now it won't go away.
Is that, is that the whole thing?
Oh no, that's just the first.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay, I read it too. I just wanted— I want to know where we were stopping.
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, we'll stop there.
Oh well, and that's like the biological clock really, that's what's disappearing. But we also, you know, kind of grew up in this generation where all of a sudden, um, it was okay for women to have jobs, it's okay for women You know, and even encouraged for us to go to school and be educated. And if you're smart— I mean, I, I— the first part of this really resonated for me because I was told these exact things growing up. Like, I skipped grades, I went to school, you know, kind of early and atypically. I did a lot. I had all the same kind of praise and— The only difference here is that I don't have that biological threat that I hear. And I think that's probably why I'm not sad about this. Like, I was raised to, you know, for my accomplishments as well. So I relate to this woman.
It's so funny. Well, it's not funny, but Really, what this first part just in general really said to me was just representing the conflict that I have personally seen so many women struggle with. That is this almost clash between intellectualism, success. Mental, mentally gifted and romantic success. Right. And then so many women use the same line that she did, which was hyper-intellectualism is a major turn-off for every guy who gets close.
And so many And that's where I have to differ.
Well, because it's one of the things— I mean, I've heard that you've heard this in movies, you've heard this in books and articles. And I mean, this is a very common belief among a lot of women that their intellectualism, their success, their more maybe masculine aggressive behavior, but really it's the intellectualism that they really believe is a turnoff for men. And so again, I can feel your, your brain. I'll let you go ahead and give your piece on it.
Yeah, it's like hurting me. It's hurting me to not jump on this. So, well, and I think there's a few different elements to this because I used to think this almost the same thing, and then I realized what it is. So it is that, okay, being intelligent You know, you can sometimes live in your own mind, and that's where this, you know, hyper-intellectualism comes from. And so, when you're living in your own mind, you're not necessarily experiencing your feelings or your emotions, and it can be really easy to make those the, like, redheaded stepchild that you're ignoring. And real genuine emotion and real genuine feeling is very, very feminine and very attractive to masculine energy. So if you're blotting that out, you come across very masculine to men. And you're not actually in your feelings at all, or experience allowing yourself to experience your feelings, you will drive men away because they won't— you'll just be meeting them on an intellectual level. So they won't feel chemistry for you. They won't feel polarity for you. And that's a really common misunderstanding. Can you hear me okay? I'm getting a weird echo.
Yeah, no, I can hear you fine.
Yeah, so it, you know, it's a common misunderstanding to think that men don't like smart women. And when I explain femininity to women, I have to constantly explain that I am not telling them to dumb themselves down in any way. I'm just telling them to maybe put a lid on it for a moment and then get to experience him as well, because really smart women We tend to lead the conversation like I'm doing right now. So we just talk over you, you know, we like bring the rate out and here you go. And it— that's a turnoff for anybody.
And I think what this issue also brings to the table is also because of the times we're living in creates a societal conflict.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
And so it's very hard to talk about this. This kind of represents a pretty large cohort, I want to say.
Huge. Well, because we feel like whatever we got valued for isn't really valuable and now we're screwed.
Right. Like something— like somehow it's the intellectualism itself. Because really what women are— because what they say a lot is that we are not just unattracted to it, but we're intimidated by it. And see, that's what's so hard. It's so hard to talk about this because again, not only are you clashing with the realities of what makes one person attracted to another from a— one from a biological standpoint or evolutionary standpoint, and a, you know, like I said, more human spiritual standpoint, but you're also clashing with the fact is, can you talk about this in this day and age and not Consistently trip.
Yeah, have the pitchforks come out.
Right.
Well, and you're going against a lot of people's experience of feeling like somebody was less attracted to them once they were intelligent. And that's a real feeling and a real experience a lot of women have had. I've had that experience where I thought that's what it was. And I continue to be wary of that. And then it's not being anymore because I've changed the polarity of my life. So, you know, but I get it. I get why people would assume this is what it is because we've had— we've been beat up and not felt like our, you know, we were valued. And it's really— it is a tough conversation to have, but the point about it is that you can have both. It's just that you have to believe that you can have both. And also, you know, Your real partner is a smart woman. Your real partner out in the world doesn't want a dumb woman.
Right.
Like, your actual counterpart that you should in fact be with is not interested in, you know, an unintelligent person, and they're not interested in having boring conversations about, you know, things that would make you cry because they were so, you know, mundane. So you don't, you know, you don't have to worry about like impressing all of mankind. You just have to eat your lobster and he'll want you to be attractive, you know, and intelligent.
And like I said, because I understand that completely, right? But to someone who doesn't, you know, to the— I don't say the average person, like somehow we're not average, but to someone who doesn't— the unaware person who isn't aware of what these terms mean, because when you say polarity, that's a huge, huge word in this context.
Yeah, uh, well, in dominance, masculine men are not attracted to masculine women, and they cannot be, right? No polarity.
No, no polarity. And when we say polarity, we mean obviously the opposites attract thing. Most people have heard that saying, is when you need If you have a dominant force, whatever force you're bringing to the table, in order for that to complement you, you need the opposite of that, right? The yin and yang. And we all understand that, right? This is why in same-sex relationships you still see polarity.
There has to be polarity, otherwise it will not work, right? Because every relationship doesn't matter.
Relationships just need both. They need a masculine energy and they need a feminine energy. This is why a lot of times when you do see more masculine women, they are with more feminine men, right? Because you both can't bring the same thing to the table, right? If you're both doing the same thing, there is nothing to be attracted to. I'm not gonna— I don't need what I already have, right?
Yeah, exactly. And so the misconception is that you— that it was your intelligence that made him unattracted to you, when in fact it was often that your that the polarity was off. And that's when I discovered that it changed my entire world, right?
Because when you hear that, you realize it's not dumbing yourself down. It is— it's not that your intelligence— you cultivated your intelligence, you cultivated your, your masculine traits, but you did not cultivate your feminine ones. And so when you see this, when you're having this experience, it's not the men are not attracted to your, your intelligence or intimidated by your intelligence. It's just that when they deal with you, they don't see any femininity.
Right. And the intelligence is not what they are. You know, intelligence makes for an excellent relationship down the road. But as we're getting together, we are not— that is not what we are number one focused on in either sex, really.
No, I've never had a guy ever in my life, never I never, ever, ever, ever, not once ever talk about a situation with a woman that didn't work out well because of her intelligence.
No.
It was never like the intimate— because a lot of women just think, oh, because I'm always saying women are not— men are not intimidated by women. Like, we're not intimidated by you.
Like, I used to think that. I used to— God, I used to buy into that too.
So many women think that. I mean, We're not intimidated by you. I don't know how many times we have to say this. We're not intimidated by you. You're not intimidating. I don't care who you are. I don't care what you have. You're just never going to be intimidating to us. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. And I'm not saying that to cover my own pride. I'm not saying that to protect my own pride.
No, it's just not where you're at.
It's just not where— it's never, that's never the issue. I've never had a guy be intimidated by a woman. You know, it's just that We can't. We have to be. We have to have polarity. We have to have difference. We have to have the fact that you need. There's no reason because again, the I don't say the idea, but the the the culture shift of of women, like I said, having jobs and being able to support themselves and and all of these great great things. But at the at the same time, a lot of women stopped cultivating their femininity as well.
Well, it's very yang. All those things are yang things. We are all, you know, operating in our masculine energy force when we are going out and doing stuff, anything you're doing, anything you're in your masculine energy, and that's okay. It's just that you aren't, you know, if you run on running on your yin energy, you'll start getting all kinds of amazing, you know, attention from men, and it will just be that you switched over on the energy sources. And that's what I teach people.
You can, you can function and see— like, think, let's take like celebrities, women that you would know, Beyoncé or Rihanna. Like, these are women who clearly function in masculine energy when they are doing their thing. I mean, have you ever heard like, uh, Rihanna when she's doing her song? But have you ever heard her talk, like giving her interview?
It's very masculine.
It's very different. Very, very different. Because you can tell she's, she's in 2 different energies depending on whatever she's doing.
Well, we all have both. Every human being all have both.
We all have both. But it's just like anything, you, you, whatever comes out of you is what you're feeding, right? Whatever you feed in yourself is what's going to dominate.
And also where you're more comfortable. Like, you're right about the feeding part, and then you're also— there's also an element of how you're raised in there. Like, if you were constantly asked what you think and valued for your thoughts and your contributions and your actions, that's masculine energy. So you will teach a girl, like a little girl, to value her more masculine energy if you speak to her by continually asking her what she thinks. If you ask her how she feels continually, she'll cultivate her yin energy better. It's just the way that, you know, that works because you have to go to a different part of your brain in order to access the feeling center. And if you're constantly requesting that from somebody else, then you will get that energy more. So, you know, there's simple things you can do with language that will make some— push somebody into their— a different energy source. If you want to switch the polarity in a relationship, you can ask them, you know, what they're feeling or thinking, depending on where you want to go. You can put somebody in the friend zone by asking them, well, how they feel more often. I mean, it's very simple and easy to do, but It's just that nobody knows about it. Right.
I mean, and this is, again, this is what's such good news for women who feel like this is such— this is the case for them so many times, you know, because again, it's now, you know, you don't have to— it's not about taking your— what you have cultivated and, and just ignoring it now. It doesn't have to do that. It's just recognizing that there's this other element to you, you know, which is very natural for you anyways as a woman, that like Elizabeth said, there's things you can do to cultivate that, to function in that energy, to be able to develop that just as much as you developed your masculine, your masculine traits, your intellectualism, your work ethic, all those things. When you're in that energy, you can, can, you can cultivate your femininity just as much. And when you do that, then you will You will, it'll, you'll laugh. You won't have to worry about anything. You'll laugh to think that it was something that it was so— no, it's no, it was never that. It's just when I meet you and I don't see any femininity, there's nothing in me that's going to be attracted to my masculinity. Right?
Even if you're beautiful, it has nothing to do with your looks.
Right. Even if you're gorgeous, it's not going to matter. There's nothing for me to do. Because a lot of times these women are constantly put in this position where they're kind of giving you that energy like they don't need you. It's like, all right. And a lot of times they'll say it like, first thing, I'm a strong independent woman, I don't need a man. Okay, then why are you—
No problem, like I'll exit stage left.
All right, then go away then. Like, I don't care. I mean, it doesn't— I mean, you don't need a man, fine, then go be by yourself. Why are we on this date then? Like, I don't— that's what I don't understand. It's like, okay, why Why are you wanting me to make sure that, that, okay, you're not going to—
Well, we were valued for having more masculine energy through the '80s. I mean, the '80s and '90s, we were valued for suddenly all being more masculine. And, um, that's bit us in the ass.
Because women look at men the way a lot of guys will look at bad boys. Guys will look at a bad boy and say, I want that. Yeah. So they'll look at the outside and they'll think, okay, what is he doing? He's being an So that's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to be more male. Right.
Women looked at men and said, I want that, right?
Yeah, I want power.
I want power. I want, you know, all of these things of independence, money, you know, money, you know, the ability to, you know, do what I want or whatever they thought it looked like from, from that perspective. But again, just like the, the good guy, you know, nice guy looked at the bad boy, he doesn't see it correctly.
Right. Yeah. Well, you don't see it in a way that will get— yeah, it's not that, you know, you're not, you're not too smart for a great relationship.
Right. Because so many men look at women and say, you want this? Here, have it. Like, I mean, this is not that great. You know, we don't, we don't— it's not— I mean, there's so— because we understand, just like being a woman, I could look at a woman and be like, it doesn't seem that tough. You just got to do this, this, and this and this. When you'll— the women will laugh at Why? Because you know the every intricacies, the, the details that we— I could not possibly know, right?
Right, right.
It's the same thing. It's like, okay, you want masculine behavior, then you're going to be attracted to femininity as well. You're going to start desiring— you're going to start going to have heart attacks at 38, at 35 or 40 years old. You're going to start developing— you're okay, you're going to have all these things, but there's a lot of other things that comes along with it.
Right, right.
So it's it's not the pursuit of the masculinity, right? You can pursue career. You can pursue all these things independently that you're wanting, but understand that that's not really again what you're really actually after. You're wanting to be able to function your masculinity when you need to and be able to function your femininity and that be okay because it's almost like so many women have told women that feminine. Well, femininity is the problem.
Well, femininity is the heart that we've kept down, and there's been a lot of society problem with femininity for a long, long time.
Right.
So there's— we've been— you know, it's a powerful chaotic energy source, and it's been degraded and messed with, and now we're having the kind of battle of the sexes deal. That's all cool, but when it comes to having a nice life for yourself, you may want to explore other options.
It's one of these things where—
If you told me that I was going to teach women how to be more feminine when I was in my 30s, if you told me this when I was 21, I would have probably laughed at you and then been angry because how dare you? This is so not worth anything. Like, why in the world would that be? You know, that's not powerful. We're not gonna get anything out of that. Like, that is ridiculous. And now, having been on the other end of it and understanding why, it's laughable to me that I was that naive. But at the time, I was like, well, this isn't, you know, worth anything. That is ridiculous. And I grew up definitely leaning in my masculine. masculine energy. And most of my clients start there. I mean, I don't— I attract really go-getter women who have great careers. And, you know, they're the women in this article. Like, my target people who always come to me are literally this woman. So—
Hmm.
And the reason is that they know that something's missing and they, you know, wake up and realize that, like, they're not getting their needs met and don't get why. And then they have to go down the rabbit hole and then they feel like they are conceding to the enemy or something. Like, okay, I'm just gonna dumb myself down. That's my solution. Like, that doesn't work because you can't. You just can't. Like, he doesn't want you to— he, you know, he might want to have a nice conversation with you at some point. Or you just continue to hide that you're like brilliant. I mean, that's dumb. That isn't fun for you. Like, don't do that. So that, you know, the people that I get are the ones who are like, feel like they've been duped. Like they did not, you know, develop the right skills and they're trying to figure out what it is. And it's a dirty word. Like I have to spend a couple weeks usually of getting to know somebody and speaking to them to get them to even accept the idea that we may need to explore feminine energy and it's not what they think.
And guys, The flip side, obviously, just there's nothing like femininity. We need it like we need air. I mean, there's just—
It's rare too.
It's just, there's nothing— you can't get it anywhere else. I mean, there's nothing— you can't get that in anything on the planet. It is the rarest. I mean, it's just, you can't get it anywhere else. But, and so guys at the same time, they'll be looking at femininity and they don't understand why women hate it. So much. We don't understand why you're fighting so hard to get rid of— guys look at feminism and guys are looking at all these and you're seeing women just really trying to almost just, you know, disregard it completely. We're looking at it like, no, like, don't. But what guys— it's kind of like what you just said though as well. It's like femininity has been, by nature of what it is, can be taken advantage of. And it has been for All of human history. It's really put women in really vulnerable positions throughout history.
Well, only real power is repressed.
That's why when you— when guys are seeing these things come about, they're seeing the fight to get away from it so hard. They don't understand it. But this is what happens every time we're in positions to with women, and we have these women who are— got this chemistry for us. When women are— when a woman does love you, when she does give you that element, that aspect of her, and it's abused, then you would not want that. You're gonna look at that as the problem as well. You're never Never going to want to be in that position again. This is what happens anytime you've been abused. You're never going to want to be in that position again. I don't care what man or right. That's just human nature. Anytime you've been oppressed, anytime you've had something happen where someone has taken something from you or done something to you that you couldn't stop them from doing, that is have a very violent reaction to you. And a guy's gonna understand. I mean, if I tried to grab a guy and try to do whatever on me, he's gonna have a violent. violent reaction to that, no matter how much bigger I am than him, you know what I mean? And he's not gonna forget that.
Right.
But, and so this is where, again, a lot of the issues that we're having is kind of gender Cold War we're kind of in right now. Uh, a lot of these issues are, are a result of it kind of finally coming to kind of a head that, uh, uh, you know, There's there's a difference. There's we need differences between the sexes. We need the masculine and feminine energy to be harmonious, but it seems like no one wants to bet anymore. You know, no one wants to kind of be the person who has to go first. No one wants to be in the position where they are considered the one in the weaker position. This is why people. You know, want you to like them more than they like you, right? That whole ordeal. Well, but again, it's just as we continue this conversation, as we continue through this article, we all we have to understand is that this is helping nobody with us.
You know, benefits from this from no femininity. Are you kidding? No, like nobody benefits.
no one benefits from that. And I don't know about you, because like I said, I, I refuse to live without it, you know what I mean? Like, I just, you know, I'm not— it's not gonna happen. And so, but again, it's something that we have to understand within each other, because just like, I don't say a simple issue, but an issue such as this, when you're thinking that your intellectualism is, is the culprit, or your, your mask, you know, or you're too nice, you're too nice, that's it, they don't like me because I'm too nice, right? Guys say that all the time, just You know, I guess I'm just a good guy. Be a good guy. Women hate that shit. Like no, they don't. They love that shit. They love that shit from a guy that they have chemistry for. If they don't have chemistry for you, then it didn't mean you ain't physically attracted to her. That's not going to mean anything.
Doesn't mean cast pearls before swine.
Well, it's like I don't understand why we don't understand it within ourselves. If a girl, if I'm not attracted to you physically, I don't care what you do. And I'm not saying that you're a bad person. It's just I can't. I'm not going to. care. I'm not— it's not gonna have any impact on me, and it has nothing to do with anything with the girl. Because I'm not attracted to you does not mean you are objectively unattractive, right?
No, just means that you're not his flavor.
You're not for me, so you're not my person. That's it. And there's somebody who's gonna see you all day, every day, and that's what our goal should Again, it's a process. It's a slow process because we were having to get through all these very, you know, scars and painful moments that people have had that they've locked on to and they're, you know, they're cultivating, they're nurturing on their own. And Elizabeth and I kind of come in and redo all that. Like Elizabeth said, I got to get you happy first. Before we can do anything else.
Before we do anything.
All right, so I think that's a good place as far as to stop for tonight.
Uh, yeah, let's, let's cliffhanger on this article because it's, it really is paragraph by paragraph.
Yeah, it really is. And so it'll kind of be a little intro to it so you can, you know, kind of understand the road we're about to go down. So, um, but yes, anyways, thank you guys all for tuning in. Really appreciate it. Uh, again, you go to our website My turn to have a plane.
I'm sorry.
I had one in the beginning. You had one at the end, right?
Oh, okay. Getting done.
Okay. Uh, excuse me. But yeah, you can go to our website, ryangroupodcast.com. You can check, check our stuff out there. Elizabeth, you want to let people know how to find you?
Yeah, I'm available at attractblend.com, and, um, it's multi-author, so You can just always click on me and look at my stuff. But, you know, and it's okay to email us and connect with us.
Absolutely. But yeah, I hope you guys got something out of tonight, you know, pick something out of it. It's like I always say, it's like, hey man, just get what you want, leave what you don't, I suppose. But this could be one of those things where over a period of time, certain things will make more sense as you go through things.
And so, but nevertheless, I sure hope it does.
I hope it does. Oh no, it's going to, guarantee you. Trust, you're going to speak. It's going to happen. It's just, you know, success means— or all success is, is preparation meeting opportunity, right? It's always good to have a knowing of kind of what you're getting yourself into, because then you're better prepared to handle it, right?
Absolutely.
Um, so that's my thinking, is because again, some people are just not in the place to hear this or to hear certain things. You're just not there yet. You want your evolutionary ideal. That's all you want. And you're going to be, you know, there's some people I know, they will have their type and there's nothing you're gonna be able to say to them. And that's fine. But understand, if that's not reciprocal, you're gonna, you know, it's gonna be tough. You're gonna go through some stuff.
One day you may change your mind.
You know, maybe. No, good luck.
But I mean, hey, run through the flowers first. I don't have a problem with that.
Hey, I don't have a problem with that.
Like, get, get, you know, So get yourself satisfied in the world of Caesar and then come back and we'll talk about spirituality.
All right, there you go. I like that. That's a perfect, uh, thing to end on. So yeah, I'll just stop talking. So enjoy the rest of your night, day, wherever you are in the world, and we will see you next time. Thank you, Elizabeth.
Thank you.
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