Dating Advice For Men Part 2 Robert Dunn & Elizabeth Stone

Hey, what's going on guys? Welcome to the Orion Group Podcast. I'm your host Robert Dunn, and I'm here tonight, uh, a little later tonight actually. I actually put out Christmas lights today. That's why I forgot to tell you.

Oh, getting festive.

Yeah, I was excited about that. Um, uh, Miss Elizabeth Stone, what's going on? How you doing?

I'm great. How are you?

I'm good, man. Like I said, I was thinking about, I always, that always happens. Elizabeth always asks me a question before the show, but then I'll answer it once we start the show, maybe because of my brain switches.

So, well, we talk, so we can talk such a long time that if we don't just turn on the recording, we've, we've missed some amazing stuff.

Right. That's what we've had to train ourselves to do. We've had to like, all right, we can't get caught up into our conversation. We got to start recording all this. Cause that's actually happened like earlier on when we started doing this, we realized we were having all of our good stuff off camera, as they would say.

Yeah. Yeah. The, after the jitters were gone and all of the, you know, worried about what you're going to say thing.

Exactly. Now I'm worried because I'm so comfortable that it's just whatever can come out. So.

Well, I'm glad to hear that. Me too, actually. So raced back here and got back in the nick of time to do this, um, from the old casino. But actually at a dinner, I had a family dinner and then, and then it was at a casino. So I don't, you know, it's not like I was like, oh, let's do this later tonight because I have to go to the casino.

Oh, yeah, it's all right. We understand.

Just trying to, you know, scratch the itch for 30 minutes a day.

Hey, well, now you're prepared. Hopefully you didn't lose any money.

Didn't. I was up 50 cents.

You're fed.

So it was a win. Yeah, exactly.

Ready to go. But yeah, that's what we are going to continue on our journey of my dating tips. We talked about— I actually kind of forgot what we talked about last time. I think kind of we went over Kimish, what I thought guys should do prior to—

Purpose.

Yeah, purpose prior to getting involved with women in general, kind of went down that road. And so I actually got that episode up late because there was some glitch with Apple Podcasts. And so they weren't posting any, like, new stuff. And so I had to kind of play around with that, but finally got it up. So you can definitely listen to that one. I don't think— you should probably listen to that one first. So if you're listening, or you're not listening now because we're recording it, so never mind, scratch that.

Either way, don't miss it because it's a great episode. All right.

It is.

All right.

So round 2, here we go. Um, I was thinking about again, uh, what I would want to say to the fellas and, you know, obviously if you've been listening to this show, you know, we don't really go about things just as common, you know, as a lot of people do, because—

Make sure you wear a clean shirt, everybody.

We want you guys to understand. What's going on behind the scenes as well, not just the behavior, or not just the action, I should say, but what's behind it. It's important. I want to give you guys a more complete picture so you know what's going on. It's always better to be aware than not. And there's a lot of things that even if, you know, you're not some person who gets all deep into this stuff, but I think it's still important to kind of have a full picture of how people go about these things and what's going on, not only from a biological standpoint, but from, you know, a consciousness standpoint, a spiritual standpoint, and, and all of the above and all the in between.

Absolutely.

So what I want to start breaking down for my next tip is type, women and type. Okay, because if there's anything that guys talk about a lot, in one way or another, when you really think about or break it down, what we're really talking about, or I won't say complaining about, or interested in, or frustrated by, is how women and type and how you guys interact with With that term and that principle, so to speak.

Yeah, that's an interesting one. And I think people, I don't know, overuse it a little bit. But I want to hear what you have to say about it first.

No, actually, I want to hear what you have to say about it.

Well, you know, when you brought it up, it's a concept that I haven't actually thought about in quite a while. And I was trying to think of the reason for that. And I think it's because I've moved personally, and I try to move my clients more into the feeling space. And so it's It's all about how you feel when you're around somebody and what they set off for you. And in the male space, it's more about their appearance at first. And I'm only talking about initial impressions here. I'm not talking about— I'm talking about the way that the energy systems interact with each other. So when it comes to type, if you used to think about type in a masculine way, like a person had to look a certain way, when you move more into your feminine, you desert that as a concept and think about how they make you feel.

And I love— actually, I'm really glad now that I had you kind of explain yourself a little bit, because that's really the realm I really want to talk about this. Because again, for me, I like to move people past type as well, you know, for, for a lot of reasons. I don't know if I really break that down. But when it comes to how guys relate to— I'll say I relate, but how it's how women Women's type affects how we relate to you and how it affects us and how you relate to us.

Certainly.

Because when— I don't think there's any guy that's not affected or hasn't been affected by either being a woman's type or not being her type. And a lot of guys get really frustrated with this issue because you guys can be so black and white with it, or that's what it looks like anyway.

Does it? Does it? I didn't, you know, I've never realized from the male side that it looks black and white because to me it's never seemed that way. But I could tell you exactly what mine would be as far as what I would like, the pinnacle of desire.

Well—

Not that I've ever achieved that necessarily, you know, in a replicatable way visually the way that I thought I would. But I've certainly, you know, been perfectly happy. It's just that it's interesting that you mention it because we— I mean, we— when I'm— I'm weighing too much on this one because I actually don't know a lot of women's opinion about this because I just— when I When I'm coaching, I sort of make them, like I just discussed about the feeling, you know, I make them just evaluate people based on the feeling that they're getting from it. And so I make them go out with everybody, you know, because, you know, they don't, they don't know, you know, you don't know visually anymore. And so you don't have that as information as much.

And see, that's the thing. Well, I like what you said, because like you said that I got to I want them to go out with everybody, right? Like you've always said before, add more men.

I'm glad that you've internalized it. My friends even say it to me. They're like, you just tell me to add more men. Like, shut up.

But it's funny that that needs to be told because that's the— what the— I'll say the conflict is, so to speak, when it comes to men and this issue when it comes to dealing with women. Uh, and why I say it looks so black and white to us, because what I found out really with men is I've said this before, our range is so much bigger than I think a lot of women think or realize.

Yes, you are right about that.

Yeah. And the best way I can illustrate this is Pornhub, or any porn site that's obviously more directed towards men. I guess all they really all are, but there's porn for women now, or it's become more, more out there, more available, right? But When you go to Pornhub, there's everything, right? You know, because men get—

We're not discriminating at all on there.

Men can get off to a lot of different things. And it's very common for us to— do we have an ideal? Sure. But there's most women, I know, you hear time and time again, women get frustrated because they think all we want is the Coke bottle figure. And, you know, all those cliché terms we have. According to like a woman's body type and all of that. And it's always been so interesting to me because it's— our range is so vast that it's sure, with this ideal celebrity woman popping up, we'll be like, love that. Ideally, sure. But it's never— we would still want other things, if that makes sense.

Right. It's about variety.

Right. It's more about variety than anything else. Because remember, a man's evolutionary purpose is unlimited sex with unlimited women.

Exactly.

Yeah. So that's what our biological imperative, so to speak, is.

Yeah.

And so when you kind of look at it from that standpoint, it makes sense that we would have a range because the goal is to get as many— essentially get as many women pregnant as possible, because that's how the world gets populated.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so when it comes to this issue of type and why it looks so black and white to us, because I don't think women realize how 0 or 100 you guys really work when it comes to—

We only have one egg a month.

Right. That makes sense. But like I said, you don't necessarily see what's normal, right? And it doesn't seem weird or it doesn't seem like something needs to be being aware of it because it's just how you are. Right. Absolutely.

You can't see the water when you're swimming in it.

Exactly. So to us, naturally being— can be so diverse when it comes to what we can, you know, essentially get off to. When we hit women and your type, men get so frustrated because whatever is not a part of that can get shut down by you so intensely.

Absolutely. Well, we are in charge of no. So the feminine is in charge of no.

Right.

So we just, yeah, we just snap shut like a trapdoor and that's it.

Right. And there's a lot of, again, there's evolutionary reasons why it has to be like that. She can't just let anybody in. Right. It's literally a very dangerous thing for women to get connected to the wrong man. It's literally for the most of human history, it had significant survival repercussions for women to get connected or have children with the wrong men.

Absolutely, and it still does. It's just a little different. But I mean, but still, I mean, we're still getting killed in the grocery store, you know, in Florida, that woman, the same, same kind of thing. But most people, if you're gonna get killed, get killed by an intimate partner. And so, but just to, you know, darken it all here for us, just to bring an element of, oh my God, you're gonna die while you're mating, for everybody. Anybody trying to have a lazy Saturday afternoon is gonna love that comment. Sorry, everybody. You're not— hopefully you won't die in the supermarket, but we're going to teach you how to date better so you won't. All right.

So when you start talking about— topic is that we can start there. You start talking about how I said that a man's evolutionary nature, you know, prerogative was, or imperative is. A woman's evolutionary nature is to get her to have babies with the best genetic match and the best provider-protector, or with the best provider and protector. Yeah, so we're looking for resources, resources and genes.

Both of those are in very, you know, attached kind of, kind of things. But, you know, so that's why, like, you know, femininity falls in love between the ears, because we need to hear about, you know, all the stuff you guys want to brag about.

Exactly. And this is why women will ask you all these questions, you know, these questions trying to get information from you, because she's trying to determine where you fit on that You know, all that scales essentially, right?

Yeah. Are you a viable candidate for this? And we don't mean to do that. Like, we don't sit down to dinner a lot of the time and like have a list in our mind. It's just that that's a natural way that we mate. You know, we, we, the one, the feminine waits until they have something in front of them and then they evaluate it. Is that sperm going to get inside or not?

You know, that's the thing about our primal natures is that it's largely unconscious or subconscious.

It is. Well, and sometimes we benefit from bringing it more to the conscious level so that we aren't, that we aren't just operating blindly. Because when you know that that's what you're listening for, or why you're asking all these questions, or why it's okay that it, that everybody just looks, you know, great to you, like you can't identify a type because, you know, you're male and that's not really what we need.

And that's literally the whole point of the show. The whole point of what I do is really to take What's not being what's not conscious and bring it to the surface. That's really all the Orion Group is. This is why we talk about things the way we talk about them. Sure, we could talk about it just you know do X Y and Z and you can but you can get that anywhere. The point is that I don't want anybody to have to continue to behave in a way and not know why. The most frustrating thing in the world for people is when they get to those places where they're behaving in ways and they just don't you know they keep saying I don't know why I keep doing this. I don't know why I keep cheating on my boyfriend. I don't know why I keep getting involved with certain type of guys or girls or whatever. Like, how many times have you— I know Elizabeth has heard this tons of times.

Oh, yeah.

Just people just not understanding why they're doing what they're doing. And so the whole point is giving you this information so you know where it's coming from, because when you know where it's coming from, then you can behave accordingly or act accordingly. And, you know, there's something you can do with it. I know there's a lot of people who just want to give you information and say, well, I don't want to be responsible or You know, be responsible for what you do with it. I just want to give it to you. It's like, no, that's a cop-out as well, because who cares if I give you a tool and not tell you or teach you how to use it?

Right. And we're swimming in information. You can Google any, you know, how to do anything and have, you know, 500 different opinions about it within the hour.

Right.

You know, we don't— like, how-to is valuable and it's valuable in a, in a larger context, but so is understanding what these motivations are all about. Because if you, you know, instead of going to like You know, 5 years of therapy to uncover your, you know, conscious need to, to collect resources, we could just collect resources and, you know, dial down the desperation with the whole thing.

So when a woman comes across a guy that her primal nature determines is a good genetic match, or has that, you know, and/or has that good protector-provider ability, then her body was going to flood her with chemicals. And when her body floods her with chemicals, what it feels like to a woman is chemistry. In the most simplest way I can put that, that's what's going on.

You know, I would— I actually disagree with a portion of that.

Oh, go ahead.

And here's what I disagree with on this. Um, when— okay, it's, it's an, it's an opposite, opposite thing. So we get the, like, the chemistry for you is a pheromone thing that goes through the Jacobson's palate and into the— I'm gonna say this wrong, I'm going to say this wrong— it goes into your body through your sense of smell. So it's a physical reaction that happens in your body. You do not have— when you— when it comes to the evaluating resources part of the discussion, it's not that you feel chemistry after you, um, experience the chemicals. It's you feel the chemicals and then you start looking for other reasons why it's justifiable that you would want to mate with this human. Because you, you, you absolutely want the best specimen possible, but genetically If you're going to get that, it's going to be— you're going to know it through the chemistry and the pheromones. It's the same, you know, it's, it's along the lines of like why men like to go down on women a lot of the time is to check how it is going down there. You can actually sense disease and all of those things from the experience of going down on a woman. So if it's not right, you don't, you know, you're like repulsed by the entire affair. Similar in womanland. So we don't— what it is, is you have that chemical hit. Those 2 things are separate things. And then when you start to evaluate the resources, you can think to yourself, gosh, this is a viable candidate. And then the other ways he works for me genetically. Now let's see if he works the other way.

Did I not say— well, that's what I meant to say.

Well, what you did say was, what you did say was that we feel— what you said is we feel chemistry after we evaluate the resources.

Well, that's the— I should have separated those 2 because that's not at all what I meant. So thank you for catching that because—

No worries.

That's what the reader or listener heard. That's— I needed to separate. Yes, I did not mean that the resource— see, the resources and the protector provider is not on the same—

That's number 2.

That's number 2, right?

Yes, absolutely. We agree on that point for sure.

When it comes to the chemistry, when I said it has to happen, like the resources And the protector that comes along, you're not going to even get there if you don't have chemistry. Right.

Well, yeah, the, the part where we're, you know, aroused by you and interested in mating with you, that's a, you know, real smell thing. I mean, that's because they're 36 inches away from you, then you know about that. But that could be somebody you're sitting next to on the bus.

Right. This chemistry issue, like we've talked about before, there's arousal, and then there's attraction. And what is arousing isn't necessarily the same as what's attractive, or they're kind of two different—

Yes.

Yeah.

Which is how we get the friend zone, right? You know, so you're attractive, but you're not arousing.

Right, exactly. And so when you start talking about how do you get from— you have to go through the genetic match phase, which is, like you said, could just be a smell, pheromones. We're talking about all the different chemicals that happen that can have nothing to do— it's actually a funny thing. I remember reading about this study that was done where these scientists would take like these little pads and they put them under men's armpits and they had these men— did you hear about that?

Yeah, this is a good one.

Yeah, and they had the men walk around and do whatever, sweat or whatever, and then they took all the pads and they put them in a bag and they, you know, gave them to the women to have them smell it. And the women could really tell which guys were actually subjectively attractive. Just by the smell, or which ones had more testosterone. Yeah.

And it changed based on their cycles. So the more— yeah, the closer they were to the middle of the cycle, the more, the more interested they were in the higher testosterone sample, I believe.

Right. And times where I guess if you call the whole alpha males are really attractive at a certain point in the cycle, because again, they're talking about more a genetic type of a thing. And so arousal Is a prerequisite for the—

Yeah, the first part of the process. First part of the process. So it's the first gate you have to get through. Right.

It's the first gate you have to get through. And this is something where when you talk about the whole arousal issue, this is where game lives. Because I guess to give a better analogy, so it's kind of more understood, let's say you have 100 women, right? And you ask 100 women out on a date. And 10 say yes, right?

Right.

Because they're just— they have a natural chemistry, right? It's there. What game is supposed to do is try to get the 90, right?

You're just bringing the average up, right?

You're, you're trying to bring it up. Game's job is to bring up chemistry. Yeah, that's all game is supposed to— well, that's— let's say that's all games do, but that's the primary goal of game. That's the primary goal of pickup artists. When pickup artists— you go on YouTube and you look up pickup artists in your You know, they're teaching you stuff. What they're teaching you to do is how to trick this system, you know, that—

Well, and get more opportunities.

Right. What's it— it's what's attractive to the arousal cues, right? And so when you put all of this in and you start talking about type, this is where typeless— because type is really, I guess you can say, the ideal. But every woman has a different ideal, right? And the ideal is not just You know, conscious or in the, you know, realm of the spiritual, but it's, it's a genetic ideal as well because you don't really know. But like, you don't know what your genetic ideal is. The only reason why you know is because you're gonna have chemistry for a guy, and only your, your primary nature is the only thing that really can tell based off the smell or, you know, whatever it is that, uh, what brings that up out of you, right? What brings how a guy is going to fit you in that way. And so this is why Guys that you have a lot of chemistry for, strong chemistry for, you actually will have good babies with them.

Yeah, and that's what that's made to do.

That's what that's made to do. Uh, again, like we've talked about many times, it's not about quality, right?

Well, and it's also meant to bond you to them so that, you know, when it all doesn't work out, you guys follow each other around long enough to keep the kid alive, right?

And this is just, again, you know, this is where oxytocin comes in and a lot of Like I said, you can learn about a lot of those, or you can look a lot of that stuff up. But, uh, and so this is where, you know, this is where we're at. And so why guys get so frustrated with this, like, why I want to explain why I think it's important for guys to understand kind of how this comes to be, is because where guys get frustrated at is that we don't think your type should have as much pull as it does.

You shouldn't be as selective as you are, ladies. That's the idea there. But I understand Why? Because, um, from the male side you're like, well, what's the big deal?

Yes, exactly. And it's— and the problem with it is so many guys are trying to— they get mad about it and they get stubborn about it at the same time. They get stubborn about it because they think it's— it shouldn't be that important, it shouldn't have that much pull or influence. And a lot of times when you have chemistry for a guy, actually most of the time, it doesn't make any sense either. That's the thing about this. When you have chemistry for a guy, it's not rational a lot of the time.

Right.

You know what I mean? Um, it could look rational on the outside. The only times it looks rational is because it's— it can show up obviously in what a lot of the guys will call Chads, or the objectively good-looking guys, right? And so guys will latch on to that idea, and then they can go through a whole spiral, downhill spiral With this whole concept.

Right.

And so if I had a tip when it comes to how to deal with this, me personally, I don't deal with women that I have to build their chemistry. I understand that you can, you know, and Elizabeth and I have talked about that it's possible to flip women, but I don't flip. And this is something that— why one of the biggest reasons why I don't really like to talk about, you know, giving guys advice, because I don't I don't do that, and a lot of guys do. It's very common and normal for guys to do that, but it's something that I've picked up over the years. All the guys that I thought were good with women never did that either, and so it was kind of instilled in me without even me trying to learn it. And that's just kind of how I've always been. And so guys are constantly asking, like, how do I get X girl? And I'm thinking, well, if you're asking me that, then there's no— I don't know, like, I wouldn't mess with a girl like that. Yeah, I wouldn't mess with a girl that I would have to ask the question, that type of question. Because I don't deal with half the grown women.

Well, well, I think it depends too on who's asking the question as well. Like, is the person who's asking the question totally together in a way that is impressive? Like, do they have it all really figured out and they just want this one particular person, or are they kind of a mess and need the advice to begin with? Like, that would have a lot to do with whether or not It's worth examining.

Well, this is what's so important about why the first thing I told men about my first tip was get your stuff together. Oh yeah, number one, because this is where it comes down to. Because of what's— a lot of what's attractive to women is embedded in you getting your shit together. This is what—

It's actually what's attractive to everybody is you getting your shit together. Everybody who's listening, get your shit together.

Yeah, but I The way we get our shit together is going to look different because that's where you have a lot of women getting frustrated that their CEO—

True. Yeah, fair point, fair point. I do mean something different with that actually, and I— good catch because that's true. I— that's objectively true.

Yeah, and so this is why, because you get so many guys who want to circumvent them because it's hard work to get your stuff together as a guy. Like, what's attractive to you as women, a lot of those things take time to build. You know, most of us are not going to be Justin Bieber at 21. You have millions of dollars, you have the fame, and you have the status, and you have all of these things. Like, that's the rarest of the rare, right? And I'm not saying that you have to be, you know, have to own your own house and, you know, have the top stuff in order for a woman to date you. Obviously that's not the case. Women will sleep with you because they think you're funny.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I don't want to make it seem like women just have these astronomical standards. What I am saying is that there's a lot of guys who spend a lot of time just trying to essentially game the system. How can I find a trick to not have to go through that or not have to do the work and still get quality results?

Yeah, yeah. This is— I'm sorry to interrupt you. I have a story about this that I had. There was a friend of mine who was was coming to me for advice from time to time and always found it to be really effective, really effective. Like, would come back, I'd be like, oh my God, it worked really well. And then I spent a little, you know, like a weekend with him once. And at the end of the weekend, he was like, well, what is it like? Why is like, they're not— nobody's sticking around. And I was like, nobody's sticking around because you are not together. So you've succeeded at the surface level. But you, until you have a purpose and you're sure what it is and you have put it all together into the world, nobody's going to stay. They're just not. And I mean, I said it very carefully, but I—

I wouldn't say that.

I said it very carefully. But, you know, this is somebody who, you know, I respect, but it was like, man, pull it together. Like, you are a very smart man, and I know that you know this intellectually, but because you are flighty and because your frame— like we were talking about last week— your frame keeps shutting down. They— nobody feels safe around you, so they won't stay. But they'll— they're absolutely good for, you know, a fun time, but they're not going to respect you. And that's the problem that you're having.

And that's such a huge word, because when you focus on getting your stuff together, that's exactly what it does. It builds your frame. Or your brand, if that helps you make it a little bit more clear.

Brand is a great way to put it.

All right, what is your brand as a man? What do we get when we get you, right?

That's a great— actually, like, thinking about who you are as a branding exercise is a really— I've been thinking about branding a lot this week. I was telling Robert before this call that I had been, um, actually creating visual assets for the brand I'm building, um, Lux Self, and I I have struggled with that for the longest time. But if you think about yourself as a brand, which I've had to do with this, or what is your vision here, you could get a really long way if you were, if you were really doing it intentionally. Like, is it that you are reliable and dependable? Is it that you're mysterious? Is it that you want, you know, a family and to be, and to be into status? Is that you want a certain kind of life? Because if you Basically decide what you want at the end and then solve for X, then you will end up with the life that you want rather than just going around doing things. I want that woman. I want that sandwich. I want that Ferrari. I want that, you know, whatever. That is so unintentional. But if you were to say to yourself, well, what kind of job would I need in order to have that Ferrari or have that relationship? What kind of situation would I have to be in to stay respectful? Then you would end up with the things that you wanted rather than trying to get the things that you want instead of becoming that and then becoming that person later.

And this is what's the problem so many men have, because this is exactly how so many of us go about it. We're trying to contort ourselves into what we think this particular girl wants. And then we meet someone else, and then it's like, well, what does— what do the— what does this girl want? And your, your frame keeps— like Elizabeth just said, your frame keeps changing every week because you're trying to be what you think this person, this girl wants, or this girl likes this type of guys. So I'm gonna get in the gym. And after a month of just going gym every day, and that doesn't work out, this girl likes books. And so now you're, you know, you're doing all these things.

I'm gonna become a librarian. You have— there's pictures of you, you know, in a canoe, and then the next week you're hiking. And then you're a ski— a snow skier, right? Like, well, and then you lose your sense of self because you never knew what it was to begin with.

Exactly. And this, again, this is why I can't stress this enough. The first thing I would talk to men about has nothing to do with women, because everything— any success you're going to have with a woman or women in general is going to come from you having that identity, with you having that center, with you having your brand. We should be— I mean, and this isn't— doesn't— I don't want you to hear some big massive thing. A woman, every woman that I've had on the show can talk to me for half an hour and know what she's getting when she gets me.

Right, because you've been consistent.

I am. That is what I do. And that's what I realized. That's something that you have to understand as a man. You're— it's not about being everything to everybody. You want a woman who's going to fit you. And so your life, your personality needs to be congruent, you know, needs to be in step. And so you don't have to be fake because a woman who meets you and says, I want to be a part of this frame, now you're not worrying about having to not be yourself. This is why when you say— I mean, every guy knows a guy who can be his complete self around. I mean, that you don't realize how, how significant, how much that stands out when a guy is himself, because we all know that most guys adjust their identity to fit the type of relationship they want. Because guys, again, I've said this many a time, I really need women to believe this: guys don't have options. Like you think they do. The average guy is not just going out every night or every weekend finding a new girl to have sex with and then doing it again like it seems like. That's not the average guy's normal. You know, guys have a scarcity mindset naturally because it's, it's, it's hard to get women into your frame because women have so many options. I'm not necessarily talking about relational, you know, don't get me wrong, but I'm talking about just attention or a sexual stamp or a much more than you, put it that way.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, cause it's a bit, it's up to the masculine to create opportunities and it's up to the feminine to receive them. So, you know, by virtue of your energy source, you're just not going to have a lot of opportunities that are swimming your way.

Exactly. And so when you start getting your stuff together, when you start pursuing what's authentic to you and what's true for you, you naturally create your brand. You naturally create your frame. When you say, okay, okay, what do I care about? What am I interested in? And you are authentic about that. Now women have something to look at and say, do I want to be a part of that or not?

Yeah.

And where I, I say, I'm saying I disagree, but what I don't do, or I don't promote, is like, I'm not trying to get you to tell you things, how to get women who wouldn't naturally want to be a part of your frame to become a part of your— now, I don't necessarily think that's terrible. I just don't personally— that's not my personal philosophy about going about it.

Well, that's the hard way. That's why you don't want to do it that way.

Yeah, I just don't.

Why would we expend that kind of energy when we have options? Because you have an abundant mindset. So the abundance mindset says, well, I'll just Right. I guess I didn't really think about that. And then I can wait for something better, or I can wait for the right person. And well, I'm— and I can do that because I'm already satisfied. Like, I don't, you know, need to go out and, and I'm not desperate for this particular woman because I already have all these options. This is the root of the really boring and mundane dating advice that I give all the time, which even as it's coming out of my mouth, I'm like, God, this is so boring. But what it is, pick— you need a hobby. Get yourself a hobby. Like I say, get yourself a hobby. And then— and people are like, I don't want to do a hobby. I'm like, well, I know. And they're like, I want my hobby to be this. And I'm like, that's okay. Like, if you want your hobby to be video games, like— and so this is the one that I get the most. Like, they'll be like, they— I want to play video games, and I don't think that's good enough. I'll be like, you know what, the point is not that you love Halo. The point— The point is that you have something that you care about that can be part of your frame. So that thing, whatever it is, you then protect that thing. It isn't— you don't— I'm not telling you to get a hobby so that you'll join the chess club and then, you know, fall in love with her as she beats you at chess. I'm telling you to get a hobby because if you keep collapsing your frame upon whatever her hobbies are, She's going to get tired of you, and it's not going to work out. So you need to have things that are like bookends and tent poles in your life. And that's why it's okay if your hobby is video games, like video game it out. But if you also want to add the gym to that or something social to that, that would be great too. It's not about finding a hobby that involves women, but that's a total bonus. But you can also find a hobby that you know that you just like and enjoy, and that you continue doing during all of these times. If you like If you like woodworking, like Ron Swanson, do woodworking. I don't care what it is, but don't give it up the minute that anybody complains about it, doesn't think you have time for it, or wants to supersede it.

This is where it gets tough for a lot— I mean, it gets tough for a lot of people in general, for men and women.

Uh, oh yeah, everybody. This is the hobby advice.

This is why when you go online dating, everybody seems to like hiking.

Do you—

and you know No.

Excuse me. No. No. Well, and I've been in the position personally. I was actually thinking about this the other day. That's why I've been in the position where I've been like, well, okay, fine. Let's go hiking. I hate hiking.

Right.

You know, I don't know why I've ever done it with— on a date, but I have done it on a date. And every single time I was like, I just don't like this. Like, I'm having a miserable time. This is where I acquiesce to your wishes, sir.

This is where it gets tough. It gets tough because we have— there's certain things that seem to be more, uh, rewarded than others, right? It seems to be more rewarding to be an actor than a garbage person, right?

Right, right. And you have all of those perceptions about what that will do for you in dating land, right?

And this is where just human nature comes from. The whole idea of peer pressure is rooted in this, right? Because what's tough about this is that this is what integrity means. This is what discipline means. You have to have the discipline, the integrity, the self-esteem, the self-confidence to be yourself. And it's— people don't realize how much that you really have to have that self-love to be yourself, because the hardest thing in the world to do is be yourself. Because the things that you like and enjoy, some will be celebrated from a societal standpoint, and some aren't so popular, right? Some aren't the type of thing that necessarily people look for on the quote-unquote on the dating app or anything like that, but it fits you. And see where I'm trying to get— why I hate doing this again, you know what, why I hate doing this personally? Because I, I can't stand scarcity mindset. And so I don't— I don't— I can't relate. I can relate to you, but I don't want anything to do with that because I don't want it affecting my mind, you know?

Oh, you're in the same space I am where I'm like, I'm like, put the blinders on and don't think about how everybody wants to do hiking. But it's just, you know, it's true though, because when you realize that, you know, the most important thing is where— is like your own self-love, even though it's not sexy to think about. It, it changes the way that you operate. And that's what, you know, you would never operate from an outside-in kind of a format because that's what you've learned. Like, that is not effective. So since you're moving from, you know, the inside out, it's like, well, oh my God, I would just find more opportunities not to hike. And I would find people who don't like hiking and we would laugh about it even though we went to the gym, you know. Like, Like when I was in Missouri, you know, I was dating in Missouri and everybody liked to go mudding. Like mudding was the thing. And there's nothing wrong with mudding, certainly. And I actually like, like I used to have quads at 18. I went out and bought a quad actually. Oh, nice, man. Um, on a whim and did, there's like a whole bunch of groomed courses in California anyway. So I like had my quad, super excited about the quad, but then when it came to like, okay, we're gonna do this in a Jeep. I was like, why would we do this in a Jeep? Like, Like, now it's just boring. Now it's just bouncy driving. Right.

And the important, uh, thing I want to throw in there is I want to make sure that we're not saying that it's not cool to try new things, right? And to try different—

Try all the new things. Yeah, like, but know that you don't like hiking instead of not ever doing it, you know?

Right. Find out if you— if If it's something for you at first, right? But once you find out—

We're not down on hobbies. Like, we don't, we don't care which hobbies you choose. We just want you to make an informed decision and then not lie to everybody. And then 5 years down the road, be like, you know what? I'm not going to eat this oatmeal. I've been eating it for 5 years and I never told you I didn't like it. And you've been making it for me this whole time thinking I love it. And I don't. You're just lying to each other.

This is because we're lying to ourselves, you know, and we—

For approval.

For approval and to be accepted, which again is a very instinctual thing for humans to do because we survive in tribes, right? We survive together. That's how we always had to survive coming up. And so it's very strong instinct for us to need approval from our particular society. And it's funny how we care. We don't care about everybody's opinion because you're not going to care what someone from Russia cares, does, or thinks about you. As opposed to someone from America, even though you're both human beings. Why? Because you're a part of American tribe, right? You're connected to each other. We're connected to— this is your society. This is the— that you interact with, you deal with basis. And so this is not something that's a global thing, but we do need to understand that for the fellas, what do I get when I get you? Because a lion is never going to tell me it's a lion.

Exactly. And we don't want to find out that you're a psycho killer 5 years down the road.

You know, and And it's even— and there's, there's that aspect of it.

Please be a psycho killer on date one, everybody. Sorry.

But it's hard for you to find women who fit you if you don't— if you're not putting out there what's actually true for you. So how are you ever going to be attractive to the right women if they can't see what you're— what you bring to the table? It's interesting, this one, this girl told me Uh, when we were talking about online dating, and she was— we were talking about the whole looks issue of it, and she said something that was really, like, interesting to me. She's like, well, your looks are the only thing we can trust online. That's the only— you know, you can barely trust that, obviously.

Barely trust that.

But that's what she was saying. She's like, that's the only thing I can trust. The only thing about your frame that is obvious. That's the only thing about your frame that really does stand out in that Right.

And in your branding exercise, you may have lied about everything. Right.

You can lie about everything. This is why you gotta— this is why I tell you, you gotta hang out quickly as possible, right? Because you need to find out what it is, if this is a frame you want to enter into or not.

Right. And, you know, um, I, I actually personally, when I was a lot younger, got totally catfished, right? Like completely other person lied about everything. And, um, and what was interesting about it is he ended up telling me about it before I— there was ever any problem. He wasn't after money. He was really like, I would say, probably an incel, and he wanted to write a book actually about how awful women are. And then—

Well, you got an interesting man. You need to write a book.

Well, I— but the thing about it was what, what he did as a branding exercise was he made himself blonde and tall and like everything that you would want, and he was very intelligent. So he came up with basically a whole backstory and then talked to people. But he never expected that he would actually talk to anybody more than once. Of course, ding, ding, ding. I'm the lucky one. The interesting thing about it was we actually ended up having the conversation where I was like, without all of your bullshit story and the whole thing, I'm I think that that's abhorrent, and I'm furious about that. But if we set that aside, I actually just enjoyed getting to know you, and you never gave me the opportunity to get to know you. And that's the tragedy, because you don't— because you already assumed, you already counted yourself out, you already decided that you weren't good enough, and that you had to show up as somebody else to come here. So that's the, like, the absolute Like, the worst part about it was that it was like, well, great. I mean, from my standpoint, you know, we can, we can, I, whatever, it doesn't, this does not affect my day-to-day. But what I will never forget about it was the, like, his reaction to that. And he's like, you know what, you're right. You're absolutely right. And I will never forget it. But, you know, it was just that weird, you know, Cyrano de Bergerac type of situation where like, you screwed up, you know, you And, and we clearly know he screwed up. We're not here to, to villainize him. But the point about it is that because there was no, you know, the frame collapsed and there was no frame there, like, it, it sucked because the real human could have gotten somewhere.

And this is, this is, this is a fight because this is— and I'm talking about a fight, an internal fight. Because when you think that you are not enough and when you are not feeling great about yourself, and especially as a guy, because there's nowhere for us to go when we have these type of— right, and we have these particular struggles. And so what we do, we get mad, right?

Well, then you— after that, yeah, you collapse on yourself.

And that's the thing. That's when guys get mad and there's nowhere To go— we get angry, and then there's like that stages of grief. There's like a stage of how does a guy go from just an average guy to, let's say, incel level? And there is a process to that happening, and it is a collapsing upon itself process.

Right. Well, in there, this is where the, the phrase, you know, um, depression is anger turned inward really applies, even though I don't always agree with that phrase.

All right.

Um, go ahead.

Because like, when we see women and what you respond to, and it's not like so much that we only see you respond to the top 20% of guys like a certain way, right? We see you respond to a lot of different guys in that high chemistry way. But because it doesn't— because the, the, the The evolutionary isn't rational, like we said. We don't know how to map it.

Right.

And so it really does just happen in our eyes. It's, it's just there. And you would think that would be a good thing, but for guys, the way our brains are wired, it's not, because we can't take notes on that.

Controlling, consistent, you know, competitive, conquering. There's, there's nothing to make a—

there's no waypoint Right, we can't make a battle plan off of that. We can't, we can't see it might work.

It might work is not a great map, right?

And we try, and there's a lot of men who are making a lot of money off of teaching a lot of— this is a lot of hustlers are doing with men. There's hustlers in the men's world. It's guys saying like, this is the strategy, this is how you get hot, beautiful, go online. That's why it's always— oh, even on, you know, wherever you go, Pornhub has Because tons of every ad, it's get your dick big. Or there's a dime, like 10 minutes. There's that funny meme on every social media of all the Pornhub ads all the same, or just porn ads in general, because they're always talking about how guys hustle other men is to give them like, oh yeah, I can teach you how to do that.

Yeah, let me fix your perceived problem.

Right.

Whatever you perceive that to be. Like dick size, not pickup skills, whatever.

When you— but when you talk about a natural, what, what you would see someone who's just a natural as, and they seem to do it, uh, easy— I don't say easily, but just seamlessly, right?

Right.

And every guy knows what that— what we're talking about. It's the, the way to get there, you know, whatever you think there is, is always getting you right. Because what's a natural is just a guy who can be himself that's naturally attracting women who are attracted to that frame.

Exactly. He's already put up all of the groundwork, right, in being attractive, and then he just gets to be there.

And so when I was telling Elizabeth before the show, in terms of how I was really actually having to talk about this, how I had to reverse engineer—

And not wanting to.

And not wanting to. I had to reverse engineer it because I realized how I go about it is I'm essentially looking for the women who already like me. And what I mean by that is that's exactly— that's how I, I guess, explain chemistry in my mind. That's what it looks like to me. It doesn't look like, oh, the girl's just wanting the bad boys. It's saying that there's going to be women if, if I get myself together the best way I can in time that I had, you know, in the situation, the current time that I'm living in, then there's women who are going to be attracted to me and my frame naturally.

Absolutely. You know, and you're trying to encounter more of them.

And I'm trying, and I'm just kind of trying to encounter more of— and I don't do that by gaming women. I don't game women. I've never— I said I never game women, but I don't Really? And I've never— I haven't gamed women in a very long time. I don't do all those tricks. I don't do any of that stuff because I'm not trying to create anything that isn't already there. If I take my stuff, I'm going to attract women who are attracted to that frame. And so when I had to think about that, I realized that's what I— that's all I'm really doing. I know that there is already there waiting for the opportunity. opportunity to be exposed to it. And I guess I don't want to make it so simplified, but generally that's what I do. And that's what I've seen, because that's all I saw the guys who were what I thought were naturals were doing.

Right.

And so to me, it didn't seem like that's the way you did it. The only guys I saw running game were guys who were just really just trying to put on or were really legit players. They just really wanted to have a lot of sex with a lot of different women, and they were committed to that goal. But guys who seem to have the type of situations that I wanted, I— it just seemed at first it just looked like they were just so smooth and so suave. And then what I want to start— I really started understanding it and asking questions, just kind of being around them. I realized it was just them saying, boom, this is planting their flag, you know? And they weren't ever trying to get girls to want more. It was like, this is what it is. And they're not saying that it's gonna— you're gonna avoid heartbreak. I know you're not gonna avoid any, so don't think this This is some, some out, you know, for—

no, it's not.

You know, you're still gonna go through stuff because people in the day, still life.

Well, there's still rejection, so you're not inoculating yourself against rejection by— what you're doing actually is that you're just making it more likely to succeed, right?

And you're, you're, you're putting rejection in a place that is healthy because when I get rejected, I'm like, oh, she— it's just not for me. But I don't say I'm not I don't turn it on myself. I don't think there's anything wrong with me when a girl rejects me. I know it sounds bad, but I don't think there's anything wrong with me when a girl—

It shouldn't. Actually, it should sound gross to everybody who's listening. What's interesting, because we've been raised and brought up to be like modest about these things, but actually less modest is better because then we can understand the process that goes on in your mind because the mental model that you're talking about is different than the, oh my God, I'm not gonna make it if this one person doesn't turn over for me, or if this one person doesn't, you know, that you'll spend 7 months in, you know, in grief essentially if you have that mindset. But the mindset that like, oh, no big deal, you know, I just wasn't, I just wasn't their cup of tea, is really, really healthy and it's really, really, um, like valuable. So we should be, you know, not giving people a hard time when they have high self-worth Earth anymore. And, um, you know, celebrating that, like, gosh, you know, that person really does like themself. That's really interesting. What— how could I do that more? Because that, that mindset right there, the mindset that we want to, um, make fun of or put down, the one that makes you the prize, is so perfect for getting everything that you want.

But to me, like, I I gotta say, like, guys wouldn't believe my situation, like my lifestyle. They wouldn't believe it. They don't think it's possible. And to me, it's so my normal that I couldn't imagine, like, because— and I'm— it's really not self-aggrandizing. I'm really not trying to do that.

Yeah, we're just trying to help you. Like, Robert doesn't brag about this at any time. I mean, this is like, we're 2 years into discussing things weekly, and I don't think I've ever heard of him, you know, him like brag anything. So I think we're good. Yeah, I think—

see, that's why I confirm.

Yeah, yeah. I don't like— we— I mean, we have widen the doorway moments all the time, but I don't think that this is one of them.

I like the way you— but, uh, and so it's— I like women who like me.

Thank goodness.

You know, I, I know that seems so—

No, but actually that's very, very profound, and here's why. Lots of people like people who don't like them and find it very attractive.

Right. It does not get me off to be breaking down, going through, you know, going through all of these hoops and jumping through all these hoops and going through all this drama and back and forth and talking to 50 million people about some chick that just doesn't want you, right? Like, I don't get off on that. It doesn't— yeah, don't get me wrong, very much a hunter, but I like hunting I hunt with purpose.

Yeah, well, and that's also a function of your self-value. Because when— because people who are in the cycle where they're either chasing or being pursued, being pursued to a point where it's a little bit intense, like where it's not the normal, like the pursuing means that you call the person. Yeah.

Initiating. Yeah.

Right. Initiating. Exactly. Yeah. Like not outside their house. You know, we're not talking, you know, we're talking about, we're talking about the difference between these things. So like the initiating and continuing to push the ball forward down the court is the masculine. So that belongs to the masculine. But the difference is that the force behind it, because like, you know, there's power and then there's force, right?

Right.

In force, you are trying to change the situation. In power, you're trying to attract the situation that's right for you. And you can't do it as a man by doing nothing, essentially, because that's feminine energy. So you have to do stuff. But if you're going to apply your effort, you have to go in the right direction. So rather than using your effort to get people that really don't give a shit about you, if you pick ones that seem to be interested in what you have to offer, you're gonna have a better life.

And like, my God, fellas, like, if you've ever dealt with a woman— with a woman who has chemistry, like legit level chemistry for you, you have plenty of opportunities, right? It is completely different level because most guys, when they think pursuing, they get frustrated.

They get almost like, uh, Well, because they think about it like, you know, the difference being what I just discussed.

Exactly. When you're pursuing a woman who doesn't have chemistry for you, it is the worst. You will— all your energy, everything will just be sucked dry out of you, and you will never feel good about— because you won't have anything left.

Well, it's why people bitch about when— okay, so if people are gonna bitch about not liking to pursue women, this is why, right? Because actually Men love to pursue women. They love it. I mean, they don't like to admit it, but the reason they don't like to admit it is because of the difference here.

Exactly. You pursue women who have chemistry for you, it is the greatest thing in the world because it's almost like, you know, having a game and having a cheat code. That's what it feels like.

And the point is that you, you know, all you're doing is unlocking your achievement at that point. You know, you're not, you're not making an achievement and then You know, coding the whole video game and then like having to level up. You're, you know, you're going on a cruise rather than rowing across the Pacific.

It's completely different. It's like watching somebody— you're on the boat and they're swimming and you're just looking at them.

And you invite them, you know.

Right. And they're frustrated. Of course you're frustrated, you know. And of course you're jealous of me because I'm on the boat, right?

And they're like, well, this is how we have to do it. We have to We have to swim. What you're saying is really like, well, if you just pick a market that actually wants you. If you have your frame all figured out, if you find people who complement that, and then you initiate contact with them. If they do not respond to your contact or they close the container, then you go away and pick a different person to talk to. Right.

Let's say very—

it's very simple. It's not easy.

No. And you'd be surprised what a small percentage of success, what that actually looks like in real life. Like, I've—

Looks like you not actually ever bitching about being pursued because you don't realize you're even doing it, right?

And you'd be surprised how your market is more robust than you realize.

Oh God, yes. That is ever— is that ever true?

Yeah, I mean, if you think about how many shows— done hundreds of shows, and that's maybe there's been like 50 of them that couldn't get posted for one reason or another. But that's— let's— I don't even know how many women I've actually asked to come on though, right? Let's say it's only been 10%. Look at what 10% got me.

Amazing.

So it's— you think if you get 100— if you asked out 100 celebrity women and 5 said yes. That's 5, you know.

Yeah, it's 5 celebrity women that you're dating.

There's 5 celebrity women that you're dating. Like, yes, it was from a— when you back up and look at it, it's a very small percentage, right?

But, but a 5% conversion rate in sales, like if it was the internet, is like you could print money, right?

You could literally print money. You wouldn't know what to do.

Find me something with a 5% conversion rate, people, and email me because I want I want to send it traffic, you know.

That's like even in stocks, if you're getting like a 15% return on your investment a year, the SEC is going to be knocking at your door because they know it's not supposed to be like that.

Yeah, it's not supposed to be continuous and repeatable. Well, and that's why when you get people to worry about numbers and the process, you know, then they suddenly— it all works out because they didn't realize that they were sad about the 4 people that they've managed to date in the last 2 decades. You know, like, it doesn't matter that one person 15 years ago didn't like your toes. I mean, you can just move on.

Fellas, my God, if the fellas really got this— because it would be just like fast food. Like, if you're KFC, sell chicken. No, everybody is not going to like chicken. No, some people are not gonna want chicken on, you know, today or this week or this month. But is KFC hurting for customers? No. Do they do hamburgers? No. Do they try to do hamburgers? No. Do they try to do ham and beef? No. They sell chicken. That's what they do. They say, we're not trying to be— we're trying to be attractive to people who want chicken. That's all.

Exactly.

And that's, as you as a man, that's probably the perfect analogy or metaphor for how we should be. What is your What do we get when we get you? Because there's gonna be— that's— you can't be everything and you can't do everything, but you can do something really well. And what you're gonna do really well is what's gonna be natural for you, what's gonna— what you naturally have the skill set for, the makeup for. And of course you can improve, and that's what it all is about. Because once you find your thing, all you're doing at that point is trying to improve. Once you find, okay, I'm, you know, getting into the gym. And then at that point, you're just trying to improve. Like, okay, I lost 10 pounds. Now I'm trying for 25. I'm gonna try for 20, right? And you just keep improving. And the more you, you concentrate that, the more you develop that, it just becomes so your brand that you become so synonymous with it that we can't even tell the difference between you and the thing. I can't— you can't tell the difference between Tiger Woods and golf. They're the same. He's become so synonymous with that The— when you say Tiger Woods, you say golf. When you say Michael Jordan, you say golf. No one says Oprah who, right? You know, she doesn't have to even have a last name.

You say mogul.

Yeah, think about that. She does.

But she has a more nebulous brand than Tiger does, actually.

Yeah, she does.

Because, but, you know, but the thing is, she's branded herself so well that people know what to expect when they get her.

Exactly.

You know, you can't— you're not like thinking that Oprah is going to be your bartender at the local bar. Like, you're not going to show up and it's going to be Oprah serving you, which is why, like, she did an episode of something, I don't know, Undercover Bosses maybe, where she like pretended to be a fast food worker. And—

But this is awesome.

And they came to the window and they got Oprah and they were like, oh, you look a lot like Oprah. And nobody could Right. Nobody could— would even believe it was her.

Which is why we would think it would be weird if we saw The Rock in a tutu.

Yeah, and which is why it would be funny comedically to do that. I mean, you know, but the point is that he didn't change his brand to The Rock wears a tutu. Like, he just, you know, does what he does, and then, you know, you don't— you don't expect him to be your therapist.

Or, you know, I mean, I had one of my female friends, she was telling She was like, to be honest, I would never come to you if I just wanted to like just talk and jab like and just talk about stuff. I'm like, exactly. Did I ever tell? Did I ever tell her not to do that? No. Did I ever say anything about that? She could not talk to me, just call me up and we could just shoot the shit.

No.

There was just something about the way I present myself that she knew that was not something she would that would be an option for with me. That's not on the menu. You, right? Because when you building your brand, like I said, these things— people are perceptive, you know. People get vibes and energies. You'd be like— you're never gonna have to explain. This is why you'll never have to explain it. The reason why you'll never have to— a lion will never have to go around saying it's a lion, right? A bear will never have to go around saying it's a bear. This is why you should always be skeptical of men who are always telling me like, oh, I'm the king. Well, if you're the king, we shouldn't— it should be But we don't—

yeah, that's not— you do not tell people. No, there's great quotes about this that I can't remember right now.

Because guys do that all the time. Every day you're gonna hear some guy claiming what he is. It's like, if you are that, we will know. I promise you, Brad Pitt is never gonna have to tell us he's a playboy, you know? He's never gonna have to say that. Why? Because it is obvious, right? Certain people— what it's— when you have it down, when you are so in sync with who you are— and this is a process— develop whatever it is that you bring to the table will be obvious. This is why I don't— when you function like this, oh my God, you get rid of so much nonsense because people stop coming to you for stuff they know they're not going to get from you, right?

Well, and if you just admit you're doing— you're not Therefore, then you don't have to deal with it again. You don't have to listen to what happened at your, you know, super relative's Thanksgiving from this person because she knows not to call.

Exactly. And you have to be willing to lose some good things, some, because you're not— you're no longer functioning as in I'm trying to just bring it all in and then just, you know, and keep it and hoard it because I'm scared if I let it go I'm not gonna get anything else. You now begin to say like, look, I understand that if we are not a fit, if you don't have any chemistry for me, it's just not gonna happen. There's been times I have lost good women because I've said, look, this is my frame, you know, and it sucked. Like I said, this doesn't make it hurt any less, it doesn't make it, you know, any easier, but I've had to lose women that I did not want to lose because it wasn't a fit. Because it's like, look, Look, this if you're going to enter this frame, this is what's going to this is a situation for me, right? And if that's not, I didn't call her a bitch. I didn't call her a hoe.

No.

Or a slut. It was just like, oh, this is not for me.

Cool.

You know, and then you go on your own separate ways, and you again, it's this doesn't have to be so vicious. So so much of the times, like it's like it has been, like it is a lot of the times because people we've gotten to the point where we've made it so. Let's show myself.

No, you know, you're right. No, I was, I was going along with the vicious point. You know, it's actually— people are actually madder at you when you present something they don't expect, rather than you just being completely consistent the entire time. You don't like hiking? We've never pretended to like hiking.

Right.

I mean, they might want to get you to go on a hike. They might try to talk you into it. They might whine and bitch and moan that you don't want to go hiking. But the point about it is, is gonna be a lot Then if you pretend the whole time and lie to them, and then one day stop wanting to go hiking, then if you just are consistent the whole time, you know, like people are so worried about approval. But the thing about approval is that people who are not worried about it usually get more of it.

It's so true.

Like, you don't really care what people think. People like you all the time. You have no problem. No problem. I had somebody recently call me charming, and I had never heard myself described that way before.

Mm-hmm.

I looked at her like she had grown another antler or something. I was like, what are you talking about? And she's like— and then she like broke it down for me. And I'm not saying this to be like self-aggrandizing— I butchered that word— but I was like shocked, you know? And this is This other human being who's carried this whole perception of me around for this whole time. And it's never occurred to me in my life. And trying to be charming has also never occurred to me.

Right.

Like, like the charmingness on a scale of 1 to 10 had never, you know, I've never thought to myself like, well, if I just, eh, they're gonna like me better. No, but it was that, you know, it was the genuineness of it. That struck me because it was just like what we're talking about. Like, you, you know, if you're going around telling people that you're the king, you're probably not the king.

So like, do we lose you a little?

Yeah, we— that was the end of my thought about it. I don't know where I started, and then I just was like, well, that, like, that car just Tokyo drifted across.

So again, this is, uh, a really important— I don't know I don't know how we took— we talked long about this particular point, but now I realize how important it was because—

It's gonna be like 10 episodes of dating.

Because this is— I think this just single thing right here will change so many guys' lives because it shifts your energy. And this is how I deal with men. I shift— it's about shifting your energy because like we said last show, it's going to go somewhere. And when men waste energy, that is the— that will kill a man more than— if I really want to hurt a man, I got to waste your energy. I will give you stuff to do that would just have you exert energy with no production, and I will destroy you. And that's what I've done in the past. I don't want to sound like—

What have you been destroying people?

Well, I mean, you don't— when you have kind of the gift set that I have, you usually mess it up initially because, yeah, that's, you know, you're really vicious with it. Because once I realized I could do certain things, and with women, that showed up with women, and I was very manipulative, and I was very, you know, it wasn't good for a while.

Well, no magic school story starts with everybody not shooting the wall down. With their powers.

Yeah, you you gotta learn how to you know you gotta you gotta learn. But but yeah, if you probably should let up.

But yeah, if you want to just let's not have this be the beginning of your class action lawsuit.

If you were destroyed by this is why the friend zone guy can get so mad at you.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's a great way to bring that around.

Exactly.

And so and that's what that fury is all about. It's about being ignored after putting in all of that energy. All that effort.

This is what guys say when they don't feel appreciated. And a lot of guys— a lot of women are like, what do you mean you don't feel appreciated? Like, I appreciate you. But what he means is like, I feel like I'm putting out more energy than I'm getting back.

Right. And you're not showing me with your body language, expression, giving back, that you in fact appreciate me. Because we can think it in our mind, but the other person— and say thank you, but the other person might not understand it it in that pure glee sense that they want. Like, I don't know if, if it's true for you. But I've noticed that a lot of men, when, like, if all the nonverbals are there, like the wiggly, like excitement, right? Appreciation. That's what they think is appreciation. Like, go all the way with it. Because—

And this is what— no, you're exactly right. Because now it just made me realize That's what is so potent about dealing with women who have chemistry, because the chemistry naturally kind of puts her into that mode.

And they emote more, right, in both ways, good or bad. So, you, you know, if you've upset us, you get to hear about it. And if not, then, then you get more of that, like, glee and excitement and, um, you know, ooey-gooey-ness that we don't have all the time. We don't act normally.

Exactly. And that is— that's That's fuel. That is life fuel for men. And this is what gets so many so down, because if you are just constantly trying to turn women, then you are putting in a lot of effort, a lot of— and again, it's possible, and trust, if you can, you're going to get all that good stuff too, right? But more times than— uh, I don't know, it's on the guy and your skill level.

But not gonna go in there. But, but, but the, the lesson though, is that you will get more of that if you choose more, you know, like, here's an example. So, you know, I mostly deal with women. I do coach men, but I mostly talk to women. You know, I mostly talk to women over about 35. I mostly, you know, they have a certain all, you know, like my, my, my clients are, are very similar right now. If I were to take my entire business and then gear it toward Something completely different, like 75-year-old male accountants, you know, something just, you know, they would just be like, well, that's super great that you do this, but I don't— what am I gonna— what are— why are we talking? That's what you're doing when you pick out somebody that doesn't want you. Right.

That is exactly— you're picking someone who does not want you.

The—

what's so important for men to take away from this is that like you're naturally going to think, well, how do I get more women to want me? It is not by outward things. And this is where all the men advice to me, so much of it goes wrong because they're just going to keep telling you to change the external. And that is not how to get— because again, the goal isn't to just try and get all these, which is like the goal for KFC. Is not to get everybody to like them. It is to provide a specific need in the marketplace. You have to look at yourself as that commodity. You are going to provide a specific need in the marketplace. The marketplace needs you. Whatever it is that you bring to the table, it needs that. That's why you are here and you are still breathing, because nature has— oh, I don't want to go into that too much. I'll try Stay focused.

But well, when you change the inside, your outside will change, right?

It's— that's how it happens. If I would— if I'm wanting to, let's say right now, I'm like, you know what, I need to— I'm trying to get a higher quality of my— I'm not gonna go out and buy better clothes. I'm not gonna go out and be like, okay, I gotta, you know, figure out some better pickup lines, or I gotta start going to a different bar. What I'm gonna do is emphasize what I'm already doing. Okay, I'm going to the gym. Maybe I need to step it up a little bit so I can get—I want my six-pack instead of my two-pack that I have right now. Okay, I want to take my business to the next level. All right, I want to really start getting my spiritual life right. I need to start reading more. I need to start doing—that's what I'm going to emphasize because I know when those go up, then the women adjust to that new frame. Right, or that, right, that, uh, elevates—

The external is internal, really.

Right, sure, I could get new clothes. You can take care of the practical. I'm not saying don't take care of the practical. Take a shower, get a haircut that fits you, get clothes that fit your body type. I, I just hope I didn't have to talk about practical, pragmatic things. But when I'm focused on my work and my purpose and I'm really trying to get my stuff together, it's so funny how that seems to make— I don't have to spend time on trying to get women.

Right. Well, and what you didn't mention doing, I mean, is going to look for anybody different. What you mentioned is that you change you, and then what you have as an opportunity also changes, which is true. It's just that it's hard in— it's particularly hard in masculine energy to understand that because it seems very Pointless. Like, why are you reading Descartes? Who gives a shit? You know, like, you want— you just told me you wanted better quality women and you decided to join a chess team. I don't know. There are no women in there. I mean, or whatever it is. So it, it, it can feel very much like you are doing the opposite thing than achieving the goal that you want.

Exactly.

All of those things actually get you what you want, and it doesn't seem like that because it feels very pointless from a, from a, like, logical A to B, you know, linear standpoint.

Exactly. And this is why I've said time and time again, what works is usually going to be counterintuitive.

Yeah, and it's gonna seem stupid to you. Like, the first couple modules of my program, the one that is releasing in January, just Manifest True Love is starting again in January. Sorry for the plug, Robert.

I like how you slid that in there.

Yeah, I just had to. Well, I'm working on it night and day. I can't think about anything else. But as it's going, and, and, you know, every time I've taught it, the first 2 modules, I'm like, okay, I've got to put something in here that they're going to care about. Otherwise I'm going to lose them. And when I— what I mean by that is that I know what you need to do. But you don't think that that's what you need to do.

Sure.

And so I intentionally put stuff in there that keeps people on board until week 4 when they just have a huge transformation. And it happens every time. They're like, I don't want to do this. I don't— this isn't why I came to you. And I'm like, yeah, I know, I know, I know. But just, you know, play along. Just play along for a little bit and, you know, just whatever. Like, to use it— I, I use the like experiment metaphor a lot. I'm like, just pretend you're a scientist.

And because this is how all the great people that I know think. When you think about— even let's take Steve Jobs for— I mean, he was like, no one was looking or asking for the iPhone, right?

Yeah, and you're not looking for what's inside the program until you do the program, right? Right, you're not the same thing, you know. Nobody was like dying to get, you know, um, a, an iPhone. They were, they were trying to have better, you know, Texas Instrument calculators.

Like, think about every great invention that's been created and think how that must have looked like in your head, or when the person first told another person about the idea. Think about the idea of Star Wars before any— see, we come in at the end of the We come in out the other side of the success. But what is the— yeah, I want to make something that's going to fly people around the world. Do you know what that would have sounded like? You know, when they first—

Like birds, huh?

Like, okay, so you're gonna build this little thing that we're gonna be able to type computers on, you know, or type on. Imagine what the computer would have looked like. Imagine any great movie that you've heard of. Imagine someone giving you that script. All right, you're gonna have a bunch of guys who've been caught, you know, trying to grab ghosts and put them in a trap.

Good idea.

So we're gonna put— I'm gonna, you know, put $50 million, you know, $50 million to make this. Yeah, and you know what I mean? So that's the whole point. It's— that's what we're trying to say. It's like, look, it's, it's not gonna feel like it works because if it felt like it worked, that's what everyone is doing. Everyone's telling you what seems so obvious, but who's, who's actually doing it? Ask— stop asking the fish how to catch it.

Right.

Ask the fishermen. You know, we keep asking the fish, how do you catch me? You know, it's like, what do the fish think they're gonna tell you? You know, this is why you have to be so careful about who you listen, because to be honest, men aren't going to tell you how— we're not going to tell you about our egos. We're not going to tell you about certain aspects of us that you really— our evolutionary nature stuff that you really need to know. Neither are women. People don't tell you stuff like, oh, just be Like, why does every woman— is always going to tell you that, but then we get mad at them because we look at them like, well, he's not nice, you know? And I'm not saying being mean or being a jerk, but you know, you get the point I'm trying to make, right? Oh yeah, this is— it's—

this is why a lot of advice is so superficial, because the, the person who's delivering it can't actually give you better resources. And it's not because they, they mean anything bad or they're, you know, nefarious, but they can only give you what they can give you. And that's true for every teacher and sage and human being out there. But, but if you understand that, like, if it can be achieved by Googling, you probably would have succeeded already. That means you're gonna have to try other stuff and be open to that experience.

Exactly. This is where the whole saying you have to become comfortable with being uncomfortable, because it's going to be uncomfortable for you to do something that's counterintuitive. It's going to be weird for Elizabeth to say get more men if that's not like, wait, what? You know, I'm sure so many women fight.

I hate that.

Yeah, like I said, it's weird for me to tell you to get more women is to not even really deal with women, you know, in terms of like, you're me telling you to deal with yourself and the women change. Exactly. Women will respond to you based off— like, it's— I'm telling you, like, I don't I literally don't know how else to go about it. Like, I wouldn't— if you told me I had to go about it the more, I guess, common way, I wouldn't know where to start. I would be terrible going to a bar. I would be terrible going online dating because I've never— I don't have a reference point.

Well, you know what's interesting about that is that the— okay, the longer I've gotten in my career and in my personal life, the less I've cared about any techniques. Though, like, I think— I mean, like, that's why it's so repellent to me to do certain Right. Like, I've maybe written, I don't know, 5 maybe articles on online dating in my entire career. And one of them was like, how to, um, like change your marketing like OkCupid would, because it was about split testing. It was like, all right, well, if your profile isn't working, try different profiles. But I wasn't telling you like, what you're gonna need in your profile is this. I was like, if your thing isn't working, working, throw it away and do something else. But the procedural advice is, after a certain point, useless because wherever you could have gotten with your own logical skills, you would have done that.

Right.

You would have tried to have the conversation with the person or— I mean, people tell each other just to talk to each other. Like, okay, yeah, just communicate. Oh, well, That's a powder keg. Like, I'm never going to tell you just communicate. Are you kidding me? Right. You know, that's why they call them marriage counselors, not marriage counselors. No, just what you're going to want to do is communicate your feelings. No. But the— but you have to understand why that is. Because there's not a framework for the advice to operate in. When you are missing so many fundamental things about self and those aren't working. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, currently engaged to the, you know, the Queen of Spain. If you don't have a self-concept that can hold that reality into your life, you will not keep it, which is why we tell you all of these things.

Exactly. It's whatever you have thought to have done, you have done.

Yeah, exactly. And we— I mean, and please think about doing those things before you talk to us, actually. If you're wearing dirty clothes right now, you are not— you know, I mean, please deal with the depression or whatever underlying issues. And, and I'm not laughing about depression, you know, at all, but I mean that there are certain things that are going to sabotage you. If you don't handle those first, you might as well just leave other people alone. Right.

And you're not really going to take care of the practical and the pragmatic. That's— I don't know.

But well, and above that level, we have to then get into self-love, which is the key to everything. And it seems so boring.

Right, it does, because it's always— it's vitamin, right? It's vitamin stuff. And it's, for me, the best metaphor that I could use for what the Orion is, is the gummy bear vitamin, because I understand That the problem, like how what I mean by that is that I understand information is not the issue. Like Elizabeth said earlier, we are literally say like every day more information is uploaded than all of human history. Some crazy thing like that. We are not in an information problem. We are in a receiving problem because when the gum when the vitamin people said why aren't kids liking this vitamin that's so healthy and so good for them? Not understanding that it's not the vitamin. the issue. It's the taste, right?

Right.

Kids don't— kids see the taste. Kids don't want— they don't like the taste, just like us as human beings. We are— even as adults, we have the same problem, because what works for us, it looks like vitamin, it looks like vegetable, right? And so what the vitamin people did is that, you know what, why don't we just put this thing in a gummy bear? And the kids don't see the vitamin anymore, they just see the gummy bear. And this is the— this is the The— what Elizabeth and I really have to struggle with, or I know me personally, because I realize how do you get it to look tasty? Because if you don't, if it's not, you know, fit your taste buds— this is what chemistry is. Chemistry is something that's tasty, or someone that's tasty.

So it's sales.

Yes, it's—

And marketing.

Exactly. This is what it's all about, figuring out what your taste, but this is what mainstream is, right? This is what— when something's mainstream, you're saying flavor. This is why it can bring in so much. But most things that are mainstream aren't quality, right?

Well, and there's just— they're so diluted that we can't even work with them.

Exactly. And this is just the, the, the issue of people who are trying to help people in general, because you have— you get all excited about the information Because to you it tastes good.

Right. In the beginning as well. And in the beginning as a practitioner, that's where you're at. Right. You know, like mastery doesn't live in the technique. You know, mastery lives way up here after you already know the technique, you know, but if you're still telling people the technique and not the reason behind it or the, the specific why we're doing this, then, you know, we're, we're still in the technique and that's okay. But that's the beginning place to be in.

Yeah.

But, you know, that's all right. It's just that once you are now focused on different stuff, like, for example, like, to level up in my own situation, and I was watching a transformational coach do her— I was watching her do her marketing webinar with— and taking copious notes because of the way that she presented herself and her brand and her self-care and consideration for herself. And, you know, particularly her values around money and abundance as well. And what's so amazing about it is that a lot of people would, would say to themselves, like, oh, she's trying to sell me something. And then on another level, they'd be like, oh, you mean these, these are levels of thought processes, right? Like, on the first level, we were just totally shut down. Why would we even care about this? Next level, this is a marketing presentation. I hate that. Level 3. Well, she's saying some useful information. Maybe I should listen to it. And she did. She gave really actionable stuff. Okay. Like, that's good. You know, that's, that's pretty good. You're not, you know, you're not hating her for being there. So that's a bonus. And then like up from there is the meta information around her information, because she's taught us the technique. The technique is good, but then we have all of the rest of it. So we have her brand, we have the way she presents herself. We have the, that she's an incredible public speaker. We have the little comment she made about the gross of her business and how she's like doubled or, you know, some ridiculous number in a short period of time. And then we have how she was able to present her thing like, oh my God, it's so good, everybody should do it in a genuine way. Now that's hard to come by, you know.

Right.

And if you're studying sales, like, actually That kind of enthusiasm about you and your product, that's hard to do.

Right.

Like, you know, for like, for me in particular, even though I know the product is good, it's still like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And, you know, she's clearly spent a lot of time unraveling that and trying to get past that. But the point about what I'm getting at is, and it's long-winded, is that there's There's different levels that you can be operating on at any given time, and you have to honor where you're at, but then look up and think about everything else that's going on that are getting your results, because it might not be what you think it is.

Right. I actually know another good place for them.

Great.

Yeah, I know. I don't know how we got an hour and a half of that one thing. I like it.

So I always enjoy it. It always astonishes me as well. Just wonderful. I always enjoy. See, Elizabeth's happy. I am.

So next time when we talk about attention, just to get you guys— that's my next, my next tip. I'm excited because fellas, you, your greatest commodity is not your penis.

Sorry to say. Oh, this is going to be so good. We definitely have to stop now.

I like that.

I'll let that simmer for you guys because I want to say so much about this all of a sudden.

I'm like, uh, so yeah, thank you guys so much for tuning in, man. Like I said, I, uh, got me, got me going. I can't stop. Train's, train's going. Oh, my favorite. But, uh, I want to thank you guys for tuning in, man. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Elizabeth.

Um, thank you, Robert. Robert, it's a pleasure.

Absolutely. And, uh, I hope you guys enjoy this. I'm all winded now. I just poured out everything. Now I'm tired.

And me too. I'm gonna go to bed in like 15 minutes after I get off.

Uh, that's what you're supposed to feel though. That's how it feels when you find your thing, man. Let's say it was like, let it kill you, man. You could pour out and it just, it's, it changes everything, especially for fellas, man. It just telling me when you get that thing that you can stay That centers you and you can just build out from there. Oh, I wish I could make you believe, you know, for all Elizabeth listeners and her clients. God, if you, if you knew, if you knew, like if you just believed her, there's some things that even with me knowing all of this stuff and knowing Elizabeth, there's still things, leverage she can pull that I'm going to respond to. And she's telling you that, and she's telling you all of these things. Like, I don't— like, she probably— I don't know if I feel comfortable with her telling you things that she wants to tell you.

I'm the worst magician in that I'm gonna tell you about the trick and how I'm doing it while I'm doing it on you.

Right, because it's like, I mean, hopefully I can catch— I can catch her Jedi mind trick. I mean, there's just certain things that just work, you know, because I'm a human male, and there's certain things I'm just naturally going to respond to. It's funny how a lot of women just don't believe it. So if you believe her, then you'll live in a paradigm that you never thought was possible. But, you know, so I don't know, maybe you just need to hear from a guy because, you know, she's telling you things that I just, I don't know. But, you know, you should.

Well, thank you so much. That's incredibly generous. I always, I just enjoy your talks. And I really, I really I really like that we get together and do this.

Yeah, for sure. So yeah, uh, wrap it up, man. Just again, enjoy the rest of your week, your night, day, wherever you are in the world, and we will talk to you next time.

Thank you, Robert.